[UNEDITED] Research + Insights into Swing Thoughts w/ Dr Noel Rousseau

This is a conversation about swing thoughts, really enjoyed this chat that I have a doctor no Russo and last week you might have heard the podcast on swing thoughts as a kind of, a compliation of a few different things. But I wanted to share this unedited version talking a little bit about his research that he's done a little bit about the Practical aspect since he is a golf coach. And yeah, just shared this entire thing for y'all to follow along is a good chat. I enjoyed it.

Lots of good stuff in here. Let's get to it. You are listening to the golf Science Lab podcast. My name is Corey Walker, and I'm on a mission to figure out how to improve the way that we learn and get better at golf. I've been able to travel all over the world talking to the leaders in the industry from instructors, to researchers, to Golfers themselves learning how they're getting better at golf and what that means for you. I want to start I guess.

Like, how would you define Swing thoughts, what is Swing thoughts? What does that mean to you swing? Thoughts is from a research perspective. It's going to be, you know, mechanical cues that happened during your swing, but I mean for us as golfers are, so just anything that's going on in your mind related to your swing, while you hit which, you know,

which is a is a distinction. Because often a swing thought, you know, is often just a feel and some kind of vague, vague idea of a feeling of a movement where I other swing thoughts. Obviously, A lot more bulky and cumbersome to deal with and technically focused. Could you kind of maybe lay out a few different types of Swing thoughts?

Like you know like thinking about internally on your you know your movements are a could you kind of maybe share some examples and different types of thoughts that people can have in terms of how we might categorize them? Yeah, yeah because one, you know, one swing thought is not the same as, you know, as another from a whole number of perspectives. Tips. So if you look at the the different types of Swing thoughts, you've obviously got in the way that you've alluded

to there. The internal external focus of attention, which is I'm sure most of your listeners will be fairly aware of that, which is a brilliant line of research. So internal Focus being on your body and how you kind of control that and external being on more the effect of the movement.

So in the golf swing that's going to be predominantly the club and the club face the idea there being that you're you know, if you're focusing on the external factors, IE the club face, then you are just then allowing your body to in your brain to self organize the movement in order to coordinate the club face. In that way, you're going to be much more automatic. The research, which suggests a lot less prone to her to Breaking Down Under Pressure as

well. So in this huge advantages of that external Focus well as internal Focus, you know, you've got to really think about how the body moves and that may not be In a way that relates to the to the task. Now you might be thinking a lot about your backswing when you're chipping and that may give you a fantastic backswing but not necessarily the right distance on the shot or the strike Etc. So that's yeah, that's the internal external Focus but there's lots of other categories as well.

So then you've got the kind of part movement or holistic movement. So you know how much you break break the movement down is you know, it's too difficult as well, isn't it? I mean if I'm just thinking on the course about Like though, turn turn back turn through. I mean that's that's that that's thought pretty much covers the

whole the whole swing. But in very broad terms where as you know, if I broke in my swing down into where my elbow points at the top of the backswing, and maybe another checkpoint two, well, yeah, that they are two very precise and distinct my linemen. So, I'm trying to create, I mean, that is going to break down the fluidity of the motion, but that's not to say it's, you know, it's completely wrong if you've practiced while thinking about those two.

To those to swing thoughts and it and that that thought process has been chunked in is something that you can now deal with quite easily than that may work for you very nicely but certainly not you know as a new swing thought on the day I would I would keep it very Broad and ideally have a whole movement. Focus would be a lot better under pressure. So we've defined swing thoughts and to find a few types of Swing thoughts. Could you lay out your, your

research that you did? Well, I still like to that with that, as a fairly analytic or chapped and as a young player I would, it's, I would choke something horribly in competition. That, I mean, I could shoot 20 shots more than I did in the practice round. I mean properly choking and when that, when that would happen, And I would be absolutely riddled with swing thoughts and trying to control every aspect of the movement.

And that's, you know, that's something that pressure does to talk to a lot of us. It makes us want to kind of control and make sure that we don't we don't mess up and I'm sure a lot of your, a lot of your listeners will relate to that. And then, you know, and as things progressed and I became a coach, I got involved in a brilliant Academy, and their whole kind of philosophy was about, you know, moving fluidly and not.

Not thinking too much about about the technique and as much Is no, I would say, that's that's fairly limited. It does have huge benefits. So the research was had this fantastic Intervention, which basically stop people think about their swing other than a few very basic holistic, thoughts. And the idea was you would you get yourself, Focus behind the ball, have your practice swing, his walk into the ball, plant your feet and hit it.

I mean not not in there. Completely Happy Gilmore way but you know, you've got enough time to set yourself and then get moving. But what you don't have enough time to do is to Stand over the ball, stop think, worried and engaging. All the kind of self instruction that would typically go on. When you when you're standing on the First Tee that intervention, I used to use a lot and I still use it. But I mean I used to use a lot when used with the right person at the right time, which is

unbelievably transformational. I mean, I've seen people who are at their wit's end with the game. All of a sudden, move fluidly and balance powerfully, and the strike is entirely different to what they would have. Previously just by being forced into that state of of automaticity and low swings for. So those results were undeniable and I've seen them time and time again.

But I was also seeing golfers who I would, I would I had use the same kind of intervention with it just didn't work and in fact it made it made them worse and I've had to kind of back out very quickly. So now after a few years of doing this, I mean I could see there was something with them. So I wanted to I wanted to obviously pursue that and And get some, get some research done and there wasn't much research down on it at the time, I mean, any research done on

automaticity. So that's that, you know, not thinking about your swing in golf is all done on patting patting is. So it is a, you know, completely different task mechanically and obviously. So we were going into new territory really with the full swing that they've been no, no, no studies. On the full swing and swing thoughts previously.

So, there we go. I'm in the aim was really, if I'm honest for me to find out why this And how I can make it work with more people and then revolutionize the way that we learn and play golf. But as the study panned out, it turned out to be a lot more complicated than that.

So the first of five studies was on, I mean, we looked, we looked at the we looked at that that intervention under pressure, non-pressure and compared the two and then what we found initially and bear in mind, this is with fairly good players.

I mean, these were all six handicap and below and we found that there as a group there wasn't any any A difference as to when they were, you know, using the intervention or not using the intervention but you know, and incidentally, we were, we were monitoring and checking whether it had reduced their

swing for which was confirmed. I mean, the intervention worked on that front but their performance hadn't hadn't changed which was, you know, somewhat disappointing because I really thought I was onto something with this drill. So you know over the next few years we did lots of variations

of the drill. We gave people time to go away and practice it and get used to it because it was slightly harsh being forced to stand to stand on the tee quickly and It it, but even after practice, so there was no group Wise Wise, some results from a performance standpoint.

So, you know, it's actually not as we look further through the data and, I mean, it was pretty clear that some people were getting better when they were forced to not think about their swing and they were getting better in a very obvious and you know, impressive way some people's performance got a bit worse. So that's that's why the whole kind of groupwise average never improved.

So then we had to start digging around as to try and find out why some people are getting better and why some people aren't and that took us down the route of looking at personality traits. Yeah I think that it changes I don't think that like you know I've played good golf with all different types of Swing thoughts. I feel like in it's not necessarily what the thought is. It's kind of how it makes me feel or You know, kind of the state that it puts me in everything there's danger.

So I mean, I would imagine that you like, many of us would have had the experience of playing some really good golf. And then on reflection thinking, you know, crikey, I didn't I didn't actually think about my swing any point in that round. Yes, absolutely. And that's fairly common, isn't it? You know, we will look back on our best rounds of golf from and that's, that's the case. So I mean, like if you're like me, you'd have then thought.

Okay, well, maybe perhaps the next round then I'm going to I'm going to commit to not thinking about My swing. Have you tried that? Yes, how's that worked out? Not always great because you miss a shot, he missed a couple shots and then you then you start to think about it. Yeah so did I so I mean you know that was a place I was in for a long time, you know all the advice and the sport Science would say don't think about your swing. So now I'm thinking okay, does that mean?

I just need to be, you know, more disciplined and and keep that kind of process of not thinking about my swing, or is there something may be flawed in the in the logic, you know? And if in if things are going wrong in the balls you know going offline just not thinking about your swing isn't isn't going to bring it back, is it? No, I would. I would suggest anyway. So so yeah. It's a really, it's a really nuanced term area. You know, it isn't isn't just one.

One thing works for everybody and not even the same thing works for the same person, you know, from day to day, the same type of thought won't always work but there aren't. Yeah. There are some some really good and strong areas that week that we can take from this. So it's like just going back to my search but we did find them. Was that people with a larger working memory capacity.

So basically, the ability to hold onto information in their head and process at the same time, which is what we're doing when we're swinging with swing thoughts. These people did a lot better with the intervention, so these people were able to walk up to the ball, put their feet in and hit it fairly quickly. Those people tended to get better with the intervention, those with a small working memory capacity or smaller didn't do so.

Well, we also looked at other cognitive traits, such as whether people were predominantly, Lee had a processing style of being auditory or more visual sir. So the Oddity people were with thinking more kind of verbal terms. Lots of self talk anyway, and the visual people would obviously thinking more in pictures and again there was quite a big difference there. The the order of the the verbalizes of that were called The Odyssey people found that found the intervention.

Again a lot more a lot more helpful. So I mean, those were just just to personality traits. I'm sure there's a whole host of personality traits that would Link in with Not to mention all the different types of Swing thoughts where you are with your swing. I mean, you know, it is complex. Hey, I just want to jump in here

real quick. If you're enjoying this conversation and you enjoy nulls kind of outside the box coaching philosophy and, you know, his whole approach which I think is just so good based on his research in the way that he approaches things, you might want to check out some of his online coaching. He has this online training program which is really unique. It's not your traditional kind of approach, and it's very much aligned with the way that, that

I think. And the way the gulf science lab approaches getting Better at golf. He has his background and learning and making sure that we are learning effectively and practicing effectively. So anyways, I thought that you all would enjoy it and Knowles has given us a great discount here for us. All you can use a coupon code GS lab, 22, get discount. When you check this program out, there is a link in the post

along with this. Otherwise I'm gonna go off signs live.com / and no land OE, L, check out what he is up to, I can't recommend it enough. Anyways, let's go back to the chat. And that's the thing with spring collection, I want I might I might have a swing Vlog because I'm changing my swing and let's face it.

If you're going to change your swing it and try and improve your going to need swing thoughts, I mean there are there are ways to improve your swing without swing thoughts, but they will take forever and be hugely frustrating. So you know, at some point you are going to need to get technical and think about your swing. And that's a that's a big challenge for for coaches and on how to how to manage that level of Swing thought and cognitive

load during the lesson. If we were to it, like, kind of maybe download or Summarize your study into a few sentences. You know, the cliff notes for somebody here, what would be those cliff notes for them as a golfer thinking about their swing thoughts? What do they need to know? Would you say they wouldn't need to know what works for them? I mean that's probably the biggest One external is always always going to be helpful. I would suggest not necessarily

for a long time learning. But I mean if your ball is going offline, focusing on on controlling the clubface and how you deliver that? I mean that will Almost guarantee most significant Improvement without thinking about how your, how you're having to deal with it and deliver it on a more technical manner just that focus on delivering a square clubface in the same way that you know, when you're playing in the wind you know good players report of of

having far less swing thoughts. Go, they just can't deal with all the, all the complexities of the Swing. They just focus on what is absolutely critical to the shot. Which is, is going to be clubface. Delivery in terms of obviously Loft in the wind and also face a got so so that's one. I mean, Focus on the things that really matter. So externally that would be, that we clubface, balanced fluidity, big, big holistic thoughts. Like, you know, turn back, turn

through. Stay in Balance, would always Trump smaller detailed elements of the swing. For, you know, everybody listening, how would you suggest that? They go find a better swing fighter, they go find, you know, their next swing thought of there any exercises, or any, any kind of ways that you help help students do that. Well, I mean, that's, that's down to where they are with their, with their technique, isn't it? I mean couldn't give a blanket

idea there. I mean, Prince, what they're trying to achieve in their movement, what I will say is, you know, the trends I've seen our high handicap players are far more ball. The night handicap players.

I mean, most professionals would report not really looking at the ball and certainly, not thinking about it, a great deal, which is in massive contrast to to weekend, golfers who have a strong bull focus, and then you can see in the movement, which case, I mean, the thought to just turn through and end in good balance. I think is brilliant. I mean, having any thoughts that are Beyond impact?

I think I generally very good and far more helpful than positioning of the The Club at the top of the backswing. A try and trying to get to a good finish is always a good thought to have. Do you recommend that people go through your that flow intervention that you used? Absolutely a scent definitely give it a go on the on the driving range. Like I say I mean it's not for absolutely everybody some people will ya just completely love it.

And definitely I mean I've played tournaments with it, I mean I loved it so much. I mean bearing in mind in I was super analytical and you know, paralysis by analysis mean that that was me and especially under So so I used to use it in practice and then in tournaments, I just committed myself to stick into that process and not, you know, not trying to control every part of my movement and it was

incredible. I really started to move more athletically and enjoyed it. And in fact, somebody somebody at the weekend came over, somebody had never met came over and shook my hand and he said he bought my app like years ago and he said the one thing he took from it was that drill and he said I've enjoyed my game so much more ever since no doing just that drill and he literally plays with it as a sum. Guy never met before. That's amazing. Could you walk through it, step by step?

So someone could do it if they're just listening to this. Yeah, yeah. So this is called the flow drill and the aim is that, you know, you're standing behind the ball. I had no say, three three paces and you do all your thinking in

your preparation there. So you're not being mindless, you're doing your shot planning, you're picking your Target, have your practice swing there and you know, in your practice ring, have a maybe to swing thoughts but then align yourself behind the Hind. The line of the ball and the Target. And then once you commit to to walking in, it's like putting your lead foot on a conveyor

belt. It the thing is moving and there's nothing was going to stop you now other than putting your feet in and setting the club moving. So the big thing is they're not to worry too much about where you're aiming and your ball position Etc. Because that's that's now you know, creating all that internal checking and self-referencing, put your feet down, get reasonably comfortable, and the moment that Club touches the ground, near the ball, you take it away and begin to swim.

What about how swing thoughts changed so much, you know, even high level players on tour etcetera? You know, talk about using a lot of different swing thoughts. They don't seem to have much longevity of using the same thought for, I don't know a year, right?

Anecdotally? You don't hear that pretty much ever at least, I have it. Nobody will probably come back around once it, I mean, yeah, I mean, if it works, it works, if it doesn't, if it works, it stays in the back, like a Patty was both it stays in the bag for a while and then gets forgotten and And then comes back again. I mean anecdotally.

That is interesting though, mean all the information on not thinking about your swing, and then there's a lot of that and there's a lot of sports psychologists who do do suggest you don't think about your swing anecdotally, the tall players a lot of tour players, think, a lot about their swing. I mean, I have it on on, fairly good information that Justin, Rose has 3 or 4 different swing thoughts on every swing.

And in fact, you can see and its preparation', you know, the amount of processing that goes through in the planning of his movement. It's a phenomenal. I saw an article with McIlroy who said that he needs to have at least a couple of Swing thoughts, if nothing else to keep him focused on the process and not so much on the, you know, the results and where he is in the tournament and Etc. So, yeah. Swing thoughts, do a do a lot of different things for different people?

Whether it is a mechanical guide and literally a movement queue or whether it's just a comfort and a distraction from other less helpful thoughts. Just curious on your perspective. Why do you think this idea of you can't think about your golf swing has become so like It's like a sports site kind of Pop content that is spread so rapidly and everybody kind of thinks is true.

I think because it can what I mean, firstly I want a very simple skill, I mean it's a pretty it's a pretty good way to go. So for example puting the mechanics are putting stroke are pretty simple, really? And in which case I would suggest don't think about your swing is that is a good piece of advice. Given that, you know, the task is that to judge the speed and the curve except you didn't that don't want to be thinking about controlling your elbows and Etc. So yeah.

Well, none mechanically simple exercise. You want to be fully automatic, certainly something that is repetitive. So from a research point of view, you know, a lot of the research is done on a 6-foot Putt in a lab that you hit, you know, 50 balls at a time. And then you do another 50 balls, you do want to be completely automatic in that scenario. That's where the research is coming from, but it's not mean that's not the same as hitting hitting a, you know, a 3-iron

into into a crosswind. It was a bull, blow your feet. Is it? I mean, that's an entirely different Different tasks. So there's that there's the research which is, you know, a little bit unrealistic but also that experience we talked about earlier. I mean we've all played great Golf and look back and felt cracking. I was in that sense of complete flow where I didn't have to in have to think there was kind of space and time and I was totally into the task, you know, and

that is flow. But you know as we mentioned earlier, not thinking about your swing isn't going to get you into a state of flow. It is just part of flow that, you know, is obviously recognized. I think that's the big thing. We play Great Golf. When we're, you know, No, so when we play golf, we often not thinking about how swing too much, but yeah, the reverse is

not true. So if someone's listening, they should try the flow drill and they should try out our familiar with vision 54, but like, in their book, be a player or their app, they have a ton of different cues, you know, are Concepts that you can go out and try as far as swing thoughts, which I think are just awesome and try to find, you know, something, there potentially that really strikes home for you or gets you in a good place in any other kind of a Is that you

think people should take or well, I'm just going to sound the pressure. I mean it would be a really good exercise just to be aware of how their swing thoughts are changing when they're under pressure. I mean, typically Under Pressure, we are likely to control more think more and, you know, and protect. So you know, it would be fairly normal to be more guided stiff, have more swing thoughts, under pressure and that's definitely a

trend to try and back. Try and be more free-flowing and more trusting as the as the pressure grows. Hey, thank you so much for listening. You've got to check out what normal is up to he has some amazing coaching going on. He's kind of outside, the box is a little bit different than what everyone else is doing out

there. And he has some online programs and online coaching training, you should go check out that is really unique and it aligns with our kind of our mission and the way that we view things here at Gulf science lab so if you enjoyed this podcast, go check it out. We have a link on the post along with the Discount to some of the Dell entering that he offers if you're interested in that, it's a good deal, he's got a lot of a lot of value to offer here.

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