If you have ever thought about armlock putting, today's episode is for you. Sit down with Marty Jurtson. He is the VP of Fitting and Performance at Ping and all around a super interesting guy with a ton of knowledge. And today I'm asking him everything about armlock putters from what technique to use, why does it work, what are the drawbacks because there's a big drawback that he talks about and then what are the specs of a putter that you should look at?
I'm excited about this because this is kicking off a series. I am. I'm super interested in things that are kind of on the fringe of golf and armlock putting and then long broomstick putting are two of those things. So we're going to do 2 series. We're going to look at armlock putting and go really deep with coaches, players and guys like Marty who are involved in the equipment of this. So today we're kicking the series off on armlock putters.
I could use your help before we get to this episode, if you could subscribe to our podcast channels, whether you're watching on YouTube or Spotify, give it a like leave a comment or review. It mean a lot as we're growing our podcast. Again, I'm really enjoying having all these chats. I want to make these really interesting deep dives and share all the behind the scenes
content here on the podcast. So eventually all of these interviews will make like A1 main guide, which we'll post on the the golf well YouTube channel. But I'm excited about this. Hit that subscribe button would really help us out. So here we go, everything Armlock. I guess the question is like, what's your experience with with armlock putting? Man, Cordy, man, not me personally, I've tried it all.
I went to a broomstick long putter and I used I did that for like 20 years and it was mostly like, I think everybody in the stigmas like popping the balloon on the stigma of putting alternative style. Now you can do whatever you want, man. I mean, we, we ran the numbers. There's more tour, more PGA, higher percentage of PGA Tour players using broomstick than on the Champions Tour. So I'm like all the stigmas gone. There's like permission to trip putt any different style now.
But I did early on because Kevin Stadler used the long putter and I was, I was playing with him a lot of golf with him at the same home course in Colorado. We were both amateurs, same age, playing amateur stuff, and he was kicking everyone's rear end and just sweeping them in, you know, and I was like, oh, that looks fun, I'm going to try that. I didn't have the yips or anything. I was just wanted to try it and I, I loved it. But there's a long learning curve to that.
And I think that'd be fun to dive into for both long, long and in armlock style. But I think there's just permission to putt with different styles now, you know, like the stigma's gone. When do you feel like that changed or like what in your your brain? Like when did that tick over between like, Oh my gosh, she's a weirdo because he has, you know, he's using a long putter to now. It's like pretty normal.
Yeah, no, it, it seemed like it was like in the in the in the old days, whatever you had, you had Rocco Mediate and these guys that you had like a couple that did the long putter on the on the PJ tour, you know, and then VJ did it for a while, but it's still kind of niche now. You got the young one, the young kids using the long putter. And I think that's when it really changed. That's really been the last like, you know, 5 plus years here, but definitely does not
necessarily make putting easier. There's a long learning curve and there's different ways I think to power the stroke that's kind of rooted in some bio mechanics would be to be fun to dive into. We're going to do it. I do want to let you know that the hate for the the long putter is alive and well. If you visit our channel's YouTube comments, plenty of people. I broomstick it live on on the channel and there's plenty of hate out there. So it you know.
You do that and dude, dude, take a nice long time to aim point your putts and yeah, yeah, you'll be a happy camper stepping. Everyone's lying on the way up, too. That's a good idea. OK, so let's let's kind of start into maybe some of the technical side of things like you like you talked about. So let's start with with Armlock. And you, you said you Armlock right now, right? Yeah. So actually, so, yeah.
So the last couple years after the anchoring band, so I kind of moved the long putter off the chest really struggled for about a year work with David Orr actually on helping me kind of with some things with the long putter. I put it, I put it pretty good, but then I went to arm lock had a really good putting season, but it was, I was very inconsistent with it. I would be really hot, like my good putting would be great and my bad putting would be, would
be worse than normal. So then in this last year, I went to wrist lock with a lighter putter in a little less like in plane torque, like tension against the through the lead wrist against my forearm. And I've absolutely loved it. So I've kind of evolved from arm lock to wrist lock. And so yeah, I do. I do have personal experience with long arm lock and wrist lock. There we go. Is this you use this? Is this what you do? Yes, that one.
OK, it's funny, I, I built this putter probably like, I don't know, five years ago, six years ago and I didn't do it right. And that's we need to talk about that because this is just a normal putter. Build with it on and it does. It's not. Don't advise that. Don't put that grip on a normal putter. Yeah, yeah. So OK, so I guess why, why is armlock potentially a better option or like what technically do you think makes it more beneficial than just a normal,
normal putting stroke? Yeah. So I think that the very interesting thing about armlock is that when you think about how you power the stroke like the in plane torque, I mean it's kind of hot topic in the putting world like 0 torque. But to power the putter to get them to solve for the right club head speed of the putter, which is solving for your speed or your pace control, most of that is coming through your wrist, through your wrist, applying the
in plane torque. That's like the main torque you're applying that never gets to 0, not even approaches 0. That's how you power the putt. So, so for a lot of golfers, if maybe they're speed controlled or pace controlled, their ability to solve for the right putter velocity, it impacted control your pace. If that is variable and you're kind of maybe overactive, like you have, you have too much variability in the power or the torque you're creating through
the wrist. That would that would mean you might be a candidate to try arm lock because you're taking that main mover out of the stroke on most putts. And then we'll talk a little bit court about you see Kucher and these guys hitting a 3040 footer. They're just using it like a normal putter and the the lock is coming off. There's no lock. You know, there's light touch at the beginning and then they're letting the wrist because you have to add that power to get
your touch on the long putts. So I think the benefit would be that you're taking out that main mover, that main torque, and then you're and then in order to power the putter, it needs to come from somewhere else. So it's coming through the shoulders, the elbows or the abdominals, right? Those could be how you power the stroke. So it could in putting, I think it's it, it can be very beneficial. And we've seen this with some of
our stack putting data. When people switch putters, they put better to kind of change your motor pattern. Like like if you take this main mover, this main torque out and limit it way down or turn the turn the volume way down, then you have to in order to control your speed or get some speed back on the putt power the putter with something else. You know, elbow, shoulders, abdominals being the being the
main options there. And I think that's, that's, you know, somebody you might want to try Armlock or if you experiment with it, you're like, whoa, this is very different. And it's because you're like, you know, it's like you're controlling the sound and the, you got the bass and the treble and you're going to turn the bass way down and you're going to tweak up the treble a little bit and you get a totally
different experience. So to summarize, we are currently in a in a normal putting stroke using probably our wrists to power the putt. A good. Percentage, yes, OK. And even if we're trying to use our shoulders, right, they're like roots. OK, so when we go to arm lock, we're we're going to eliminate, we're just going to take them out as much as we can. Yep. So our for our force generators are now looking at the shoulders and actually having to move
those larger muscles. Yeah, shoulders, elbows, ABS, you know, or some combination, you know, and that combinations do a little different for everybody, but it's it's a fun thing to experiment with. I think for both long and arm lock or just traditional putting, it's fun to try to just isolate how you power the stroke. Like do it like, you know, just play around with like I'm going to do I Sal Aoki like he's the anti arm lock, right?
He's like no moving anything, just all risk boom, boom. And the reason why he he and others back in the day, you watch Arnold Palmer Putt or whatever back in the day had to do that is because the greens were so slow. The greens were very slow. Therefore you evolve to just power it with more risk. Like it's, it's, it's just, it's just natural nowadays, the greens on tour super fast and you can have the Matt Kuchers of the world that can do armlock for a long period of time. Now.
That's kind of my warning to maybe the club golfer out there. If you're playing, if, if your home course does not have fast greens, slow greens, like I use armlock at Frisco last year in the PGA Professional National Championship. And I had all these like, you know, 30 to 60 foot lag putts because it's all windy and the greens are firm. You couldn't get close to a hole. But I'm trying to hit greens and Reg and I had a really hard time with like putting there with the arm lock.
So that's the kind of part of why I went to wristlock because you don't have the power, right. So for your club golfer, recreational golfer out there, I would probably not advise to do arm lock if you play on slow green. If you play on slower greens, I think it's kind of more of a faster green tour player bias type of technique because of the powering. Who do you think is a good fit
to make a switch to this? So like I started exploring this field because for me, if you get me in a lab, you know, like in a fitting room, like like there I can hit putts and and make beautiful strokes and make tons of putts with a normal conventional grip and all this. But if you get me with a sliding 6 footer that I'm trying to make to win a match, like things my right hand just like things start happening, right? Yeah. So it's like. I've been there. I entered that realm of I could
do it really beautifully. Yeah. In a, in a controlled setting, yeah. But I couldn't. But I found when, you know, for me, like that was why I started going down this, this path of like trying different stuff. Like who?
Who do you think is a good fit? Yeah, so Cordy, man, you nailed it, man, the six footer, you know, so I talked about powering the lag putting, but in reality, you know, you know, from all the strokes gained stuff is that, you know, you're putting skill from that 4 to 12 foot range 6. If you can make a ton of 6 to 8 footers, you can really separate yourself from the competition. This is This is why Luke Donald was #1 in the world there for a
while. He he was he was materially better in that 6 to 8 foot range. The armlock is great for that in my if you get overactive heebie jeebies, the shakes, yippie, whatever you want to call it, because you can. It's it's now that the anchoring band is in place and you can only fix something below the elbow. It gives you the ability to Max
out. So I've this is certainly and maybe you've experienced this when you've played around with it. Now you can go maximum in plane torque, like push the putter grip against your forearm and you I would go maximum, like put all my tension in there, right? And then do the stroke and power with my abs or shoulders, right? So it gives you a place to maximize the tension, right?
And I think if you probably, if you measured the forces and torques that like Bryson is doing through all his wrist joints and and forearm, you can see the white knuckles happening in there, you know what I mean? So it gives you that ability to go maximum on the tension, which is harder, which is obviously harder if not impossible to do with traditional style putting.
Do you think or have you ever advised somebody who puts fine with a normal putter to switch to an arm lock or or broom sick? Or are you pretty much like, hey, if you're fine at the normal putter, let's just let's keep you going with that? Yeah, I think, you know, whether it's in the lab or through stack putting analysis, it's it's, it's, it's, it's only if you're looking to solve a specific problem, right.
So maybe it is when you're you know, when in the lab you can roll a good, but in tournament play, you you get nervy, right? These are the areas. So that's the value of maybe tracking your encore stats, being very in tune with your, with your game, your ability to like, you know, I've, I've certainly experienced this big time myself where I'll use the technique and practice or casual play and I'm like putting
literally lights out. Then I get in a tournament and it's, yeah, when the nerves are there, it's, it's not working. You know, you need to go to something different. I've, I've gone to the point, even myself, Cordy, where I've, I've carried 2 putters in one round. I'm like, dude, I'll arm locks feels great. But when I get nervy, I need to go back to the long putter, you know. So I think being very in very in touch with that with the player is super important.
But to answer your question, I would say no. Like if if somebody's skill is there with traditional style putting, maybe it's a grip thing. Maybe maybe it's going to the claw of the pencil or something there with you're trying to solve for something with their lead hand versus trail hand and how they're applying force to the putter. Again, to it kind of comes down to what problem you're trying to solve. Are you trying to solve lag putting pace control?
Are you trying to improve their reduce their delivered face angle variability? Big 1 and I think Armlock can do that for folks. It can help them with reducing their delivered face angle variability if you kind of have some of the some of the heebie jeebies at times. I haven't heard that term before but I love it. Delivered face angle variability. Walk me, walk me through that like what is what's tour level? What's amateur? Tell us some about that and how
that. Oh man, we're, we're doing some awesome research on that. You know, we just got the Zen green stage. We just did a huge test of like all different skill levels that are hitting right to left or left to right or straight putts. And we're looking at both where they aim, where they intend to aim, where they actually aim, and then they're delivered face angle variability. And ultimately it's like breaking putts. You got to marry this the the read the speed and the start
line to make the putt right. And you have this kind of make banana, the shape which is you can hit putts higher with less speed, less break with with more speed or kind of optimal or middle middle of the road break with with medium speed. So you have this kind of make banana and certainly we're seeing that the more skilled players have less delivered face angle variability to their to their intended start line,
right. So we want to try to solve for that in the fitting process or you as a golfer want to you want to train for that or try to reduce that because face angle in putting is king like path does not matter. You've probably seen people do those crazy strokes or just think of Billy Mayfair back in the day with the build, you know, loopy stroke. But his his delivered face angle was king is because of the ball flight laws of a putt, you know, called the putt flight laws, right?
Your face angle is going to control 90% depends on what ball you're using your face insert and stuff like that. But let's call it 90% ish of your start line. So you really want to train and try to reduce that delivered face angle variability. What? What do you got any tips for us? Like how do we train that? What what are the best ways to? I mean, I just look at everything the tour players do with their block practice.
I mean, that's to me with the, you know, all the little training aids that are out there with the mirrors and the two TS and in the Tiger, you know, well, the tiger drills more, a little bit more for impact centeredness, but all those things where you train your, your hit it through a couple tight Tees. There's a million different
drills out there. I think it, you know, leaning towards the tour players because that's why they spend so much time on that practice screen hitting their intendants, because you know, they, they, they evolved to know and realize with their coaches and then and themselves how important reducing the delivered face angle variability is. Yeah. I, I think something really interesting is my guess is on your studies you've seen that delivered face angle variability.
There we go, that it's more difficult to control on curving putts than straight putts, I assume, right? Yes. Yes, we have seen that, yes. They're doing UAC pros but I I don't I know probably a lot of other games don't, but doing start line drills on breaking
putts. Breaking putts absolutely yes, yeah, yeah, if you're if you're going to spend some time with that, I think it's and that's exactly what we did when we did this big Zen test is we said, hey golfer read this putt and tell us where your intended start line is, right. So you would go out there and you put a little marker there and then we would, we would capture that in our, in our virtual system XXYZ coordinates to see where that golfers intended start line is. Cordy.
I mean, the results are crazy, man. We, we should, we could do a whole nother podcast on the results we saw from this test. Like we have players like me on one hand where I, my, I try to read the putt very true aim point is where 2% putts. I'm doing the finger thing. I'm adjusting the distance for the pace. I'm trying to get hit the putt in the center of the banana, which is medium speed for medium capture. So I'm doing everything very textbook.
Then you got players like my my colleague Jim Canaus, tour player just won the Colorado Open. He's like aiming his left to riders, a little rider where he intended and then he's and then he's aiming his right to left or is like way, way to the right or where he intended to stardom and adjusting his speed and his delivered facing on both of those. He outputs me, but he doesn't a totally different way. So it's really, really phenomenal. And then folks different like
pace and targeting strategies. The person who putted best on this test, who made the most putts had like very drippy like maximize the capture speed. So he made all the putts. So the better hit his speed control was he changed his targeting strategy to make the putt with lower speed and he made the most putts, right. And maybe that one be the best practice over over over a career or a season of golf.
But he won. He won the punting contest in this this big test that we just did with with that strategy. Wow. Interesting. OK, OK, All right, sidetrack complete. Now that we understand face, oh boy. Variable face. Delivered face angle variability. Delivered face angle variability of DFA face. Angle. Yeah, DFA. Let's come up with a new acronym here. OK, now we got that under control. That's our goal obviously, right with all putting is to to minimize that.
OK, so back to our arm, arm lock. Give me like learning this. I think that might be one of the underrated things that people do is they, you know, they had, they hit some putts for a couple days and they're like, I'm no better than normal and then they go back to normal. Yeah, so. Why not a good strategy, yeah.
So when we we when we did a a few tests on arm lock and when we give folks an arm lock putter who've never, never done it or practiced it right and we just have them go put eighteen holes. We measure them on I ping, which is our accelerometers and gyros, our own app, which which has a consistency score. Like how consistent is your closing angle, how much you dynamically close the putt, your line goal and loft delivered law of variability, your tempo consistency, your face angle
delivery folks are worse. It it, it like if you just random person never used one hand on a putter, on average, they're like 5 handicap points worse on our eye ping handicap score, which correlates to your golf handicap. So the question is, OK, how do you improve that skill and what do you do? So things we've seen with Armlock, a good general guide is to build it 6 1/2 inches longer than whatever your normal putter is.
So if you're a normal putter, 35 inches and you're like, I'm just want to order one to try one or whatever, go to 41. 1 1/2, like 6 1/2 inches is a good general guide. We got a little fuzz in there depending on how long your arms are and in your posture and things of that nature that I think you really want to kind of get the ball. And then in terms of loft, we see folks fit into, most folks fit into like 4 to 6° of loft. Some go to seven, some go to 8.
Maybe a little on the extreme end when Bubba did it for a while. Bubba walks and I'll do the lefty version. He has elbow very in and he actually didn't add any loft cuz he tucked his elbow weigh in and didn't add a lot of shaffling. So folks are going to set up a little bit differently with the arm lock putter. I think the big thing for a golfer after you get it fit right for loft and length is to experiment with how much tension
you're applying. And when I say tension, how much torque you're going to put through the wrist, right? And I would play around with that, like just in your mind, say I'm going to rank this on a scale of 1:00 to 10:00 or 1:00 to 5:00. I'm going to do 10 out of 10 here, maximum torque and I'm going to figure out how to power for it. And maybe that side bending and a little bit of abdominals. Maybe it's you're going to feel
a little more shoulders. Maybe you have less tension in your elbows and you're going to get a little elbows through it like a Kutcher style. And he he powers it with shoulders and kind of elbows and, and, and abdominals combined and then go down to like, OK, I'm I'm going to go to tension level one. I'm going to barely have it kind of contacting and torque into the lead forearm and putt that
way. I would do an exploration where you play around with the amount of torque that you apply through the wrist and just see what see what's better. You know, you can do it with stack putting and and capture your data or just kind of do it qualitatively and and play around with it. I think that's the the best way to kind of experiment, self experiment and learn the technique of arm lock. What's the give us the ping standpoint here? What's the best arm lock putter
there you guys have where? What should people check out? How do we how do we order that kind of stuff? Yeah. No, I think we, we just, we just launched an Oslo version. So we make an Oslo counterbalanced Oslo CB and that's like it's the headway to around 400 grams. It's a four at 400 grams and that's a great option. Yeah, great option. Center shafted, easy to align. We have the new Alley Blue is a good option if you're looking to get like a little bit of onset
on the putter. You're still pulling the CGS, still stabilizes it, but it kind of puts the puts, obviously the face and lead edge out and you get that long single alignment line. I think that's super beneficial for aiming the putter, especially if you use a line on the ball. So I'd say the Oslo and then our new Alley Blue onset are two awesome options in our product family right now. Perfect. Love it. And so 6 1/2 inches.
And then if let's say someone isn't getting fit and there's ordering, what loft should they go with? Like 5-5 degrees of loss. Yeah, five. Yeah, you play on smoother greens, maybe 4. If you play on slower, super slow, bumpier greens, maybe 6. But I think 5 is a Yeah, we do all of our I ping stuff. We see folks deliver about 1.8° less or more shafling than with the traditional putter. So most, most putters have about 3° of loft average. So 5 is a is a is a good
adjustment? So let's talk about these these leg putts then. Sounds like a real issue. What's for you? Enough to to change, right? Yeah, Tour Pro is maybe it's not an issue because the greens are so quick and the ground so firm that they don't have to apply that much force. So that could be a thing, I guess. You obviously had to you made a change because of it, right? Like it was a big enough issue
for you? Yeah, yeah, no. So I think the thing with lag putting is if you're going to seriously use the arm lock, you got to, you have to have a technique for the lags for whatever green speed you're using. So it could be that you just I just needed to practice it more according you know what I mean and just have a technique and I needed to practice like like super long lag puts more maybe some folks play golf and the greens are small. You never and fast.
You're never even going to have a situation like this would. I've noticed some of the tour players and and again, I kind of default to Kutcher because he's used the arm lock for probably the longest period of time. When he gets to those those lag
putts, he puts them normal. He just uses it like a mid length putter and he he lets the putter swing, He lets the shaft come off his lead forearm and he applied what he's doing is just applying more torque through the wrist and lagging him up there. I think that's a good technique. Yes, the loft, your loft might not be optimized when you do that, but I would not worry about it. Ball speed is king. Like you don't need to worry about the launch conditions on
the skid or whatever. You know, I mean, it's like the equivalent of like you're going to chip with your 7 iron. You know what I mean? It, it doesn't matter at that point. Your, your, your main objective is to get the right ball speed on that putt to get at the right distance when you lag it. So if you're going to do it and, and you're like, you listen to this pod, you're like, OK, I need AI need to be able to lag this. Just practice with using it like a mid length putter and let the
let the shaft come off. That would that would be my main tip. When we talk about like reasons to do this, there are some data like improvements like I have pulled up here like web Simpson, the before and after was huge back in 20/16/2018. Will Zala Taurus or some some benefit there for him like do you think? I haven't looked at the data specifically, but it's, I don't know if you guys have, but it's got to be the the short to mid range putting improvements that help them jump, right?
Is there any data that you've seen that's interesting or that you remember off top of your head? I mean on arm lock, I think you get these acute examples, these N equal 1 examples. If you're if we're players like that, that are trying to improve in a specific area certainly can
have a major benefit. And again, on tour, it's like most of the time if the tour can improve, the player can improve their mid range putts that have the highest impact on their scoring or strokes game putting, that's going to be the area they're going to need to solve for. I think we've seen that with Zealotaurus over the years. And then yeah, Webb Simpson and you know, he was, he was a good one, used our crazy putter. That's another good option in
our product family right now. Our new Scottsdale Crazy is a great option if you're looking for a little like bigger, bigger mallet. Is it back? It's the original kind of shape and alignment archetype. Dude, it's awesome. Yeah, no, crazy's back. OK. That's another great one to order is arm lock or mid length modern day kind of mid length style. Got it. What I mean, let's sidetrack here for a minute, then let's maybe look at this guy. Yeah, you like this?
Obviously this idea give me a reason to should I order this instead of an arm lock like any? So arm lock generally we've seen the best performance if you go to a head weight of like 400 grams, right? You know, get a little more mask and optimize the the ball speed and the momentum, especially since you're taking that big lever out.
And if you if you kind of lock this lever, it it helps to kind of keep the feel proprioception to go heavy in the head weight to you that spatial awareness in that sense of where the putter head is. So with the wrist lock, you can go to less tension in the wrist either head weight, like I'm playing mine, I'm playing an alley blue at 370 grams and my speed control on my pace and my lag putting is superb. And I've gone to less tension, less in plane torque in the
wrist. So if I use that one to 10 scale, I used to with the arm lock, be it like, you know, 78910, depending on how nervous I was or whatever. Now I'm living in the three to 4-5 ring of this kind of in plane torque or tension and my pace control, I can play a lighter headway putter. And we've seen this in our putter research time and time again. Cordy is like if you're trying to improve your lag putting, generally a lighter headway putter is better.
If you're trying to improve your short putting, generally A heavier headway putters better. So by going to wrist lock it, it can be a nice little middle ground where your pace and your speed and your lag putting can be improved relative to straight arm lock. That's like heavier, stiffer, more ridges, but. Got it, Specs on that? Like how many more inches would you recommend going longer with this? Yeah, I think mine is.
I think mine is 3 1/2 longer. I can't, I can't remember exactly the length of that grip, but I think it's like 11 1/2 maybe you know? It looks pretty long. Yeah, I think I'm, I'm 3 1/2 inches longer, so I think mine's like 39 if I remember right. And then you got to add some loft too, I imagine, right? Yeah, Yeah. So that again, yeah, probably same thing like couple degrees more. You're still going to set up with more lean, you're going to still going to deliver with less
dynamic loft. I think good general rules 2° more loft with with that wrist lock grip as well. This might be a bit random, but I know some other brands with Armlock will do like big offsets, right, to try to account for this forward lean happening, assuming that you're kind of yeah thing. You guys don't do that, right? Just kind of a normal, yeah. Yeah.
We just, yeah, You know, I think it comes down to just how much you want to be, how much we want the golfer pulling the CG to stabilize it. And so, yeah, I think. You might have to break that down for us, Break down that, state that. Sentence Yeah, Joseph.
So just like if you put a tons of, you know, offset on the putter, a big bend that that that gave the putter tons of offset, you're creating a bigger distance between the shaft axis axis, which is where you're kind of applying force through the grip and the shaft axis and the center of gravity of the head, right. And if that distance, we kind of use the distance between the shaft and the CG to control how much torque about the shaft somebody's applying.
If you make that distance too big, you're going into the maximum torque putter realm where you're you're going to force the golfer to apply a lot of rotation about the grip. And that can be detrimental, right? I mean, we're in an area where a lot of people or liking experimenting with less offset or, you know, lower torque, if you will, style putters. And so that's kind of countered to to that idea. That can be very beneficial for
a lot of players. There's also a lot of players that are using deep CG heel shafted mallets, which I I like to call those maximum torque putters. So that a lot of golfers are kind of putting with that right now as well. But no, we've seen with arm lock the amount of face rotation people in in about the shaft.
So if you had like a GoPro Cam, you're looking down the putter grip, how much torque twisting the face open and closed on the backstroke they have is very, very similar to a traditional style putting. So we in general, we kind of like keeping the offset, the distance between the shaft and the CG pretty similar to traditional style putting and just using offset in the same way you would for for putter fitting and selection with it with a traditional style.
Got it, got it. OK, But maybe just we'll hit on the negatives here a little bit. There are some quotes, you know, if you do a quick Google search, I'm like he's Brad Faxon has some quotes against it. Billy Horschel. Some of these guys have said, you know, like, hey, we should probably ban this method. It's they're doing some locking here. It's probably not a good idea. What what's your take on, on the negativity towards some of these
methods? And do you think they'll be banned here in the next 5-10 years? I I doubt it. Probably because of the probably because of the retrospective on banning arm law, banning anchoring. Like if you look at the number of tour players anchoring before the anchoring ban and after on the PGA Tour, especially the younger generation, it's gone up. The number of the number of two younger generation tour players using long putters after the anchoring ban has gone up. I don't know.
There's a, there's not a necessarily a correlation there to, to performance per SE or it's debatable. So I don't think it'll be banned. That being said, I mean you quoted some kind of golf traditionalist that I generally agree with. Like I think, and This is why I don't have my kid even though I see a lot of young generation kids doing arm lock and things of that nature, I do not have my kids doing that. I want my kids learning how to power the putt.
I want them doing Tiger Woods putting drills, trailhand only, right hand only. The magic is in the hands. The met the magic of the speed is in that right hand and I'm very much aligned with David or probably a brand facts and philosophically on that now, even though myself personally in my older age, man I'm I'm wrist lock clawing it because I don't
care. I'll do whatever to kind of optimize it for me. But I think it, I think growing up and as a young age, you should learn how to control the pace and the ball speed with that trail hand. Yeah, like. Use the wrist. You know. Yeah, my 7 year old's the same way. He's he he wanted, he's got the ping just blade putter and he just you know, he just gets out there and he can out. Honestly, he's pretty close to
outputting me at this point. Yeah, but, you know, he's just all like set up. He's set up funky. He, you know, his stroke isn't perfect, but boy, does he he puts, he puts it well and he's learning. And I love he's just like learning the skill of like ball and hole, right? He's just like figuring out how
to get it over there. Ball and hole, I have my kids putt with the right hand only and I, I have them and you notice our prodigies all have a little bit of toe hang or slide arc putter because you want kids to, to feel that torque, that torque they need to apply is good. It helps them with their proprioception, their mind, body awareness. If you close your eyes and you try to swing a putter with no torque, you don't know where the face is. You're blind.
So you want to turn the dial up on that resistance. And that resistance is very positive for your spatial awareness. Love it. OK. So I guess the the final prediction armlock putters right now, I guess we've got Bryson is the big example of this method at this point. But like in five years from now, do you think we're going to see more, the same or less of this method used on tour? I would bet slightly more, but not not like crazy.
I think you'll see slightly more of all alternative style putting and we'll call that arm lock long mid length is the one that a lot of folks are doing now and just different grit. I mean the amount of people using the claw or whatever in the pencil and all that continues to go up. So I think you'll just see more diversity in general. So a little bit more arm lock in the future, but not like not like A2 or 3X. That's my that's my bet.
Got it perfect okay we we've got everything arm locked figured out then I want to get your okay I want to I want to cut there on that thing, but I want to get your take on broomstick. I don't know what you guys call them long or yeah. Long, Yeah, okay. It's AI like the the debate around the term there that. I know that you can only use trademark stuff and all that I. Know I know.
OK so do you guys I did some digging the other day trying to find a broom like a long putter on your guys website and can you make a ping? Dude, yeah, we just launched an Oslo long, but I don't think it's on our website yet. But yeah, we just launched one. It's an Oslo long, but yeah, might not be in our site yet. I well, I've been really kind of stalked the paying like progression of armlock and broomstick putters and like you guys did a lot of armlock like.
Over the years, yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. Yeah, we. Did, but then did you kind of like the sales didn't work out so then it was just kind of like all right, we'll just roll it back then and not. Interesting, interesting Cordy on this topic. Dude. Can I do a screen share because we made like a little fitting app for the lawn putter. Great. Let's do it. Yeah. OK, cool, let's. Let's do Do you have time? You have another. Yeah. Can you share?
Did you have a share button or do I need to do something? Let me share it. Look at this. Yeah, it's pretty sweet, we. Just I haven't seen this app. Is this a public? One or is this a? This is our fitting app called Ping Copilot. But eventually we'll probably have this logic like on our website. OK, got it. All right, so let's dive into let's dive into your thoughts on on the long putter. Where does ping sit? Where do you sit on on this topic? Yeah. I mean, our our founder, Carson
Solheim was a sweeper. Really. Yeah. Yeah. He, you know, the original B90 putter, you know, he worked on that. And so he was a big proponent of the long putter. And then you know, the old Sam Torrance, Rocco Mediate guys, Rocky Thompson, all these guys use the big Ping B90 long putter for for a long time. So he was a big proponent of it. So yeah, we, we try to, we try to support all different styles of putting out there. I had no idea. OK, I'm going to go on eBay and
buy one of those right now. B 90. Yeah. OK, OK, I'm I'm into it. How what's the what timeline was this? When were those being made? Do you Oh, man, I mean, he, I think Carson he yeah. No, I mean in the staple like Ping white staff bag PGA Tour, like in the early, early 80s whenever everyone's playing iTunes and if you guys were brooming it out there. Sick. Okay, awesome, I gotta get one of these. I'm all in on that. Okay, I'm gonna find one. Okay, so it's been around forever.
I had no idea then, yeah. B 90 We made a couple versions of B90. It was a center shafted and it was a great look, like kind of like a hot dog or whatever shape to it, you know, swept up on the heel and toe. And then we made one with the ISO pure insert, you know, it said Ping in the face, like floating behind the face, you know, and that's what Kevin Stadler used and a bunch of tour players used used back in the day. OK, I see one right now. Buy it now.
Our best offer for 1:48 with the ISO Pure face. Come on, that would be a good keepsake for you if you pick one of those up. I like it. OK, yeah, this series is also just giving me an excuse to like we're just going to get some cool random broomsticks and arm locks. OK, so that's it's been around forever at paying obviously then. Yep, Yep. And now you guys are bringing it back. Yeah, yeah. We're launching the Oslo Long, which is a center shafted Oslo
man. It's a great like mid size kind of mid between a mallet and a mid mallet size for us single line on the floor enter shafted which we're seeing long putters folks, folks still have a little bit of face rotation or a little closing angle or little kind of in plane torque in general with
the long putter. But center shafted, you know, there is, there is less face rotation to take a little bit of the torques out, minimize them just a little bit, which is what we're doing with the center shaft. We see that beneficial for most folks. So yeah, we, we, we. And that's what the old B 90 was, Center shafted version. Got it. Is that necessary for a good long putter is to have it center shafted or or no? Yeah. I mean, I think you see what you see in center shaft most of the
time is, is face balance. So whether it's a double bend to get there where, where you where you have the shaft still intersecting the center of the face. So if you hang it, if you hang it kind of off your finger there, it would still hang face balanced. So most folks do best with face balanced or just a little bit of toe down, you know, like 5-10 degrees to pay on the center gravity depth there. So that's a good kind of general
guide. But over the years we have built some long putters with more slide arc and you can use how much arc is in it to control your miss bias. And that applies whether you use a long putter or not. More toe down, you'll start the ball more to the right, deliver the face more open for right-handed golfer. More face balance, you'll start the ball, ball more to the left or you can kind of hold off a block. Open face delivery. Got it. OK, what? What's our next step on this
long, long putter here? Walk us through some of this. The key Cordy is getting fit for the length. I'm going to show you and I'm going to walk you through this this this is in our pink Copilot app. So all of our pink fitters use this app to fit everything from perfect launch conditions, gapping, juniors, grip size, color code. All that type of stuff, wedge
fitting. But we just launched this long putter fitting logic and my colleague Jim Canals, PGA Tour player, just won the Colorado Open. He did all this research and helped build this app. So you know, our fitter is going to go in there, they're going to
click long. And this is really good because it kind of helps you think about, OK, if if you're going to, if you're new to the long putter, what are some things you want to kind of think about or maybe experiment with as you're kind of learning the skill or the technique? So we've seen players over the years stand way more upright, like Bernard longer, like he stands pretty upright.
Then you have kind of other players, you know, whether it's Adam Scott or something, bend over a little bit more, right. So, Lucas. Lover is the is the best example. He's just like. Totally. Way bent over. Way bent over. So again, there's if, if you're going to kind of dabble with the long putter, these are things you should experiment with, right? How much am I going to bend over then? And that kind of goes into your length fitting. So what we're doing here is kind of fit in the length.
So let's say you're going to go Lucas Glover style, right? You're going to Crouch over a lot, then you put in your height. And then this measurement is brand new for us, right? We would never use this. A lot of times we use wrist to floor to measure your line goal and your color code. That's kind of in our classic approach, but what Jim came up with is for a long putter, you
want to use your elbow to floor. So you want to stand because some people, some people have the arm their their lead arm lower on the sternum, some have it higher. It's kind of have their elbow. They have their elbow. I'm going to turn sideways more out or more against their side. And so this is going to affect your length. So we actually use an elbow to floor measurement.
So you kind of just stand stayed straight up and we put average for the height here is our default and then your elbow position. So for folks maybe listen to this is like, OK, is your lead elbow going to be more tucked? This is like burner longer style or is it going to be more Adam Scottie, you know, straight out or pointed aimed at the target or kind of in between, right. So again, these are again, while we're fitting the long putter for length, this also is really
good. Like, OK, I'm going to kind of play around with this and see what works best for me for my setup and how I'm going to power the stroke right. So there you can see as you align it more at the target on our little app here quarter, you can see where that that elbow position kind of changes and gets kind of higher up right and that changes the length. So somebody puts their their their lead arm more at the target, their hand generally
goes down a little bit. And, and we use that to kind of fine tune the length recommendation of the long putter, right? So you put those things into our app and you get a, we have this long putter upright aligned at the target. 45 inches would be a good, a good spec, right? It is a good kind of general guide. Of course, maybe there'd be a little, a little variability in there for everybody. But yeah, we just just launched this fitting app. It's super cool, very accurate.
We actually train this app on all the lung putters we've fit over the years. A little AI approach, what have
you on the data analysis side. So like anybody on the PGA Tour that's using this app with taking these these that using a long putter and all the folks has come through our putting lab, their logic works within like 1/2 an inch on their their putter spec using this method I I. Love this because first of all, the long putter, it does take time to figure out what technique you want to use.
So this is like what this is also done is broken down like hey, you could try these these approaches to long putting, which is kind of nice. And and I've found I think like I am more crouched. I found that like Lucas Glover, Adam Scott thing to be quite good of like a bit more bent down elbow at Target. And then what do I do? I think I'd like, I try to go perpendicular with the hand and like, Yep, push the hand kind of thing.
Yep. So I found, oh, I need to, I need a shorter one because I need to bend over more and totally kind of do that, which I've, you know, I, it's great. I got, I got 1 to get started with and it's help, but I do need to now get a second one that's the right height based on this information. So I think it's, I think what I love about this is, yeah, you've kind of figured out all the variables that could impact this and kind of laid it out.
So a good testing mechanism to like test all these different ideas, see what you like. Yeah, totally, totally. I think Cory, for folks just getting started with the with the long putter, I'd be curious to hear your experience with it. Most people who do it, they like death grip the, the bottom hand and then they, they, if you watch people first do the long putter, they got the, the bottom hand, the trail hand super tight and then the putter's waving all over the place.
And the key. What I again, kind of similar to what we talked about on, on, on arm lock. You want to run somebody through a little protocol or do this yourself, self protocol on the tension that you have in your trail hand to grip the putter, regardless of what grip. And I think you see all kinds of traditional style trail hand. You see claws, you see palm towards the target. You see pencils claw with the, with the tent.
You see the you know longer, it's got the whatever you want to call the fork method or what have you. I do like that one, yeah. Tons of different ways to do it. I've done them all. I kind of like the I kind of like the claw. And it will talk about the biomechanical reason why is because the claw you can, you can support the, the weight of the putter, right? So the, the torque you apply to keep the putter from falling
down in the line goal plane. You can do that through squeezing the grip between your thumb and, and, and index finger here. So that's like your force you're going to apply to support the weight of the putter. And then whichever finger you're going to use, put it exactly in plane down the target line. And that's where you're going to apply the force in plane to control your speed. So I really like that from a biomechanical standpoint with
the long putter. But what I want folks to try, if you're first getting into the long putter, experiment with how much tension you have in the trail hand to move the putter right. And you're gonna you're gonna go, OK, I'm gonna go super light. I'm gonna go tighter and control more of the shoulders. I'm gonna go super light and do a little bit more elbows.
John Graham, PGA Tour putting coach who's who's a PING ambassador for us. He likes to categorize people from in the long putter to a rocker or a pumper. So a rocker is like shoulders mostly doing the movement or a pumper is like trail arm flexing, elbow flexing, doing a lot of the movement or you got a hybrid of both. So all long putters are somewhere on that spectrum. And so that's a really good place to explore what you like it and how you want to power that putting stroke.
I think you nailed it when you said if you have too much tension on your your backstroke, you're going to see that putter just making figurates and all kinds of designs just. Waving. I think that's the definition of getting started with a long putter is like you're gonna have that. I don't know if you've ever seen anybody not do that, but when you first start. You. Feel out of control right? I have no idea where this putters going or where the putts going. So like, they're the learning
curves big in my opinion. Yeah. So one thing I really like folks to do with the long putter, if we're fitting them or teaching them or fitting teaching combined, because they're like, hey, fit me for this long putter. I've never tried it. So you're really fitting and teaching them at the same time is to don't have the putter statically on the ground. This is very important. The long putter is heavy, so you want to hover it or tap it or move it.
And I like a little tiny tap, a little movement. Because what you don't want is the golfer to lean on the putter and then right when they take it back, that balance points gone. It's like a three legged stool. You got your two feet. And then if the putter is leaning on the ground and then it you pick it up and move it, your brains like, oh, where's my balance? And that's where you see that
putter kind of waving around. So I would highly, I really encourage folks to kind of just lightly tap the putter or hover it or some combination of both. Super duper important because what you want to have happen is you want to kind of break that inertia. You know when you take it back and get get a little velocity on the backstroke and do it in a very smooth way. One thing that we. Forgot to talk about in arm lock as well as this is lie angle of of these. We've talked about length of
both of them. We talked about loft, I guess talk with us on the long putter here, loft and lie angle of a long like what do you guys start at? Yeah, loft. We still do loft at like 2° you know? That doesn't change. Yeah, we haven't seen that change. Obviously we fit it. Some players do a little bit more neutral, some not. You know, if you delivered like at zeroed out, you know, so you're so this kind of depends
on your ball. Your ball position's the big one that's going to drive this in the long putter, right. And then your your your pivot point. So again, some players are very centered on the sternum. So it's like ball position relative to sternum, how much side bend you have in the long putter, which side bend can be important to get a little rise angle. It's hard to generate rise angle in the long putter.
And why that's important is in a traditional style putter, you mostly use your elbows and your shoulders to get a little rise angle on the putt. Long putter, you don't have that option really unless you stand up in flexion or lose some of your spine angle. So that's why generally you want to have the ball a little bit forward and a long putter to get a little rise angle. Then where do you, where do you center the putter on your sternum and then your ball
position? Those are kind of drive the loft. But I would say Cordy, on average we do long putters at three degrees. So three degrees, 2 to 4° and then line goal, line goal. We build our long putters very close. There's, there's a USGA rule on this. You can't go more upright then then 10° or 80 if you measure from the ground plane. And so we build ours right there like 10 1/2 or 79 1/2 just to give us a little of safe zone
for USGA conformance. And that's generally a good spec for everybody with a long putter but it. But maybe if you have your kind of eyes in different position or you're, you're crouched over a little bit less with a ball kind of outside your eye line, maybe we would go slightly flatter than that. But that's it's, it's generally, I think sticking to as close as you can to that 10° USGA limit
is a, is a good spec. So you can, you can kind of have where you're applying force in the center of gravity of the putter little closer in line and that's going to reduce your, we'll call it your torque, your torque applying in the lie angle direction to keep the putter upright. If you have that the the center of gravity and where you're applying force closer together, it will feel more like a pendulum or more stable, so to speak. Got it, Got it. So we talked about the downsides
of arm lock being leg putting. What downsides of of a long putter do you see? Yeah, long putter. I I think it has a bad rap for lag putting, but I don't know if the stats bear that out that that might be kind of like a false assessment, You know, might again, just be players just you just need to practice it more and, and and learn that skill of lag putting. You're applying all in plane torque, which is again, the main mover that can controls the speed or primarily in plane torque.
You're not taking that away. You're actually maximizing it or turning the dial up on the in plane torque when you use the long putter. So a little bit less on that. You know, I think windy, I think it when it comes to long putter, you know, I think breezy conditions, windy conditions can be 1 area where using a long putter can be tough.
Like if you play most your golf in very windy, breezy conditions, you got you got the fact that you're standing taller is a factor blowing you the human over. And then you have a surface area for the air to blow on a the putter if it's a mallet style and be the shaft like the wind blows on the shaft. So I think putting in the wind is probably the main detriment of of the lung putter. Got it, got it. Yeah, I personally, I like anecdotally like leg putting, hasn't I?
It's still a skill to to work on and improve, but it seems just as difficult with the long putter as it did. I don't know. That's that's what I got. OK, So we, we've covered a lot here with with long putters. I guess what's kind of your, any specific getting started with it that you said, obviously you said to kind of don't rest, rest any weight on it because that could really kind of disrupt you
getting started. Any other kind of tips that you've helped people with as they're as they're trying to learn it or get started? Yeah, I think it's, I think it's just explore how you want to power it. So again, so it's so it's OK. How much once you're going to move the lead elbow out, how much you going to bend over? Start with maybe a traditional style grip with the trail hand.
Keep it dynamic, keep it moving and and play around with how light you're going to. You're going to hold the putter and go super duper. However light you think you're going to hold it with the trail hand, go more extreme. Go so light you're just barely supporting the putter and that will force you to power it through the kind of ABS, side bending ABS and side bending or shoulder movement or rocking movement. And that's where I would start.
I would I would start with those factors super light trail hand grip and that will force you to move the putter through the rocking motion, side bending and and and abdominals.
Yep. I think one of the things that I found is for me personally, I've got that Lucas Glover, Adam Scott approach to it that if I forget to like engage my shoulders or like like if I don't do a practice stroke and like intentionally think like, OK, use, use your body, use your body that like typically don't have as good of a stroke.
If I just get up there and just kind of use my use my arms and just kind of hit it. So I think there you still have to constantly think about it and like practice this this stuff as you as you're working on it. Courtney, I agree, man. I think if you're if you're, if you're, if you're going to the long putter for in most of your golf curve, you've been traditional. It's a totally different powering mechanism which can be super beneficial.
It could be, it could be the benefit of going to the long putter. But yeah, you kind of got to, you got to think about it. And when you keep practicing your putting, always play around with that like, OK, how am I powering this? I think a big thing is get the tension out, get the tension out of your neck and your shoulders right. So get your setup dialed in and try to get as much tension out of there so you can have that rhythm and that flow. Super duper light trail hand
grip. Play around with it. Play around with that. If you go to claw style, you again, can, can, can play. Maybe you can have a lot of squeeze to support the the weight of the putter and then be a little lighter pressure with your elbows and your shoulders. I just think in both arm lock and long, you really want to explore how you're powering the putter and tension levels and
different, different joints. That's what kind of when I look at Bryson, he's obviously got maximum tension level lockout of of end range motion and his in certain joints. I don't think that's for everybody because he has, he spent so much time practicing his, you know, his putter length and his tempo. He does all that stuff to kind of control the pace of the putt where other golfers.
I think it would, would, might be better off having high tension in some areas, but super low tension to others. And that's where I would start with the with the long putter for a lot of folks. The one thing I think that people should realize about this is that if you expect to buy one and then use it this weekend and putt better, it's probably like it's not going to happen. So don't, don't, don't expect
that. Like for me personally, I, I made the transition in during the offseason, so I just like putting inside on a mat and wasn't really playing golf anyways, So it was, it was fine. So I, I gave myself like, I think 6 or 8 weeks where I was just kind of inside, just dinking around a little bit every every week. What kind of expectations would you set for people if they're going to like buy one and they want to start using it in like,
how long should that be? The the long putter is very fun to practice. I think it's one of the funnest butters to go out there in the putting green if you've never done it and practice because you can put for hours and not be not you can, you can do a little, you know, block practice on a chalk line or or whatever and not get tired, but your back is not going to start hurting. So that's super fun.
But yeah, no, I think to kind of get the speed down, like how you're powering it and get the pace. I think a golfer Cordy could go out and do really good inside 10 feet with the long putter on the first couple rounds. But it's probably going to be that skill of powering the putt, solving for your for your putter head velocity that's going to control your pace. Give yourself a little bit of patience with that. But I think you're learning
curve. Like if you, if you bow and you're like, dude, I'm going to, I'm going to go do it. And you go to the putting green for 20 minutes every day on the every day on your way home from work and do some nice lag putting along with some short putting. I think you could get good and two to four weeks I think you know, if you kind of already have green reading and that's skilled down. Yeah, I, I do say it's, it's super fun to learn a new skill if, if you enjoy that kind of
thing. So like, it is a pretty enjoyable new skill to learn, especially one where there's so many options of like how you can do it. So if you don't like that kind of stuff, maybe don't dive into it. If you love like just like experimenting and trying stuff. And I, I, it's, it's a blast. It is not easy though, like the long putter is not an easy skill. It's a, it's a different instrument and it's so foreign compared to like all the other clubs in your bag. You know what I mean?
Like like your putters, your putters on a transition from your, from your irons and wedges, from a weight and inertia standpoint, all that. And a long putter is like a totally different animal. It's like a different sport and most you know what I mean? But but that can also be a
benefit, right? You, you can have a totally different technique and if you're already good at green reading, so you've got the components of good putting or green reading slash targeting strategy, then you have can you
control your start line? Then you have, can you control your pace if you're already really good at green reading and maybe the long putter or a different putter technique can help you with these other two ingredients, which are the other 2/3 of putting that could, you know, that could unlock a, a nice improvement in someone's golf game. Yeah. And and I think that's part of the fun of it is it's a new, it's totally different.
Maybe if putting has pissed you off over the years and you're tired and you don't want to practice and you're just done, do this. I agree, I agree it's. Fine, All right, Marty, I want to end. I want to go. I want to put myself through this app. We we got let's all right, man. I want to know my my length. The long putter. Long putter. Yeah, let's do that. I'm in the crouched camp at this point. I do that totally bent over. I'm 6 feet tall. Let's see here. OK, look at.
This Yeah, we got to get your elbow to floor if you can measure it. If you got a driver. Oh, look at this Cordy's come with a tape measure. Yeah, OK. So standing up like this. Yep, Yep. 51. Sound right, 51 Yeah, yeah, let's do it. And that's a lot. All right, 51 And how do you like you, you're saying you line it more at the target? Yeah, because I'm going like. Lucas Glover style. Yeah, I'm going like this. Okay, totally. Let's see dude, 48 and 1/4. Very specific. I like it.
Yeah, 48 and a quarter, so a little bit longer. So I think that's cuz, yeah, maybe we'll double check that elbow measurement, but not elbow, not elbow to floor. Okay, I'm standing here. You might have really short humorous bone. Wait, do I OK? How? I would say maybe, yeah, go up against you could do it against the wall and mark it against your banner and then measure, measure the banner. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. Yeah. Like that just. Want to stand here comfortably?
Yeah, stand right there. OK. And then see it's right about the L in Philly. Yeah. Yep. All right, then let's measure that. We're doing all kinds of stuff. Here it's got it's about even with the L if I see that right. OK. So that's about 48. So that's OK, 48. All right, let's go back. Let's go back. Well, here we're doing some testing. How important is this? Measurement, let's go back to 48. So this will be, this should get us maybe closer to 46. Yeah, 46 3/4.
That seems perfect, man. Like our long putter at retail is going to be 47 by default. Got it. Yeah. So that elbow measurement is is huge. Yeah, that's big. That's like controlling your lie angle with the wrist of floor it from a color code standpoint. OK, yeah, that's good right there. 46. So make sure the measurement is correct on the elbow. Yeah, that's what we learned today. Yeah, cool, Marty, we covered a
lot of ground. Let's anything else on before we wrap on Long. Any other parting? No, man, I think long, yeah, no long. Long's fun to try. I think you're going to see more and more of the younger generation, younger generation kind of do it. Yeah, what? Listen five year prediction more same long of same on along putters more or less than of right now. I'm going more, I'm going more again.
I would I would say probably not a doubling, but wouldn't be surprised if maybe 50% more in the reason why I say that Cordy is, you know, younger generation doing it. You know, the auction is the world and the the sea woos of the world doing really good with the long younger generation doing it, less stigma and it's just another tool in the toolbox. I think young kids might play around, play around with and try it perfect. All right. Thanks, man. We can wrap there on our fun chat.