There are a few key concepts you need to understand if you want to excel at distance wedges, and I bet that you're not thinking about the impact of wind and all the factors of affecting how far you hit a golf ball. Those are just a couple of the things we're going to talk about in today's Golf Well podcast.
I'm your host, Cory Walker, and today we're going to have just a great, already super fun conversation with Doctor Nico Darris of Golf Blueprint. We're going to dive into a bunch of stuff, his experience with pros, he's working with, what he's learned. I'm going to share, you know, some of what I've learned from coaches and just it's just a good conversation. If you're into golf performance,
you're gonna enjoy this. Make sure to subscribe or follow along wherever you're listening to this or watching. As we have more podcasts coming, Nico is going to come back on, hopefully on a regular basis. We got a running Google Doc of topics and we'd love your questions. Make sure to comment below next time. We can do a bit of Q&A. Plus, I have some other episodes planned along the way here on the podcast.
So subscribe, follow along kind of a new channel or an old revitalized channel here the podcast. This is just so fun to do. So let's get into it with Doctor Nico Darris. Nico, I want to talk about distance wedges because I was stalking your Instagram and you've been talking about like 60 yard edges or something about trying to hit it close, not hit it close. And so I thought we would start our conversation there. What are you talking about? Like. Yeah, I love this. I love this.
And I think it's the best medium for it because we can actually like deep dive. The hard part with social is that there's such quick clips and I try to go deeper into the nuance, but basically everything that you and I love is in the Gray area, right? Like it's, it's so easy to just be black and white. Like you should hit it close every time. You should never lay it up or you should lay it up to your perfect number is like the two camps of, you know, I'm better at 105 yards.
And the data is like, well, you're wrong. So this really kind of interesting conversation with with Claude Harmon and Ryan Chrysler this year. We're looking through live data for a couple of their guys and our guys that we share. And we're kind of finding like nobody really hits it to 60 yards. Like there's very few shots if you look at the PGA Tour database and Liv's database from like, let's just call it 40 to
70 for just easy math. And, and when you think about why it's like, OK, well, first of all, like why aren't there that many shots? And then you realize like a they're tour pros playing tour golf courses. And I think for people at home, this is where it gets a little bit squirrely. You and I, we play 400 yard par fours. Like I'm sure we have a bunch of them and they're fun and say we like Tomahawka Dr. hits the cart path, bounces on a sprinkler and we hit it 350, right.
You know, everyone hits at 3:50, then we have 50 yards into a green What most country clubs that's like a great outcome. Like you have 50 yards, the pins in the middle and kind of hit that like little chip shot up there. It's in between a pitch and a chip and you make a great score and you're like, wow, math is great. You bomb it up there as far as you can. The problem is on Tour A, they don't really play 400 yard par fours and if they do, it's probably like a weird hole that
you can't really hit driver. There's probably a lake somewhere or pins are tucked right. You think about Korn Ferry Tour, like those guys have to to aim at every freaking pin. So that's a whole nother separate entity. You know, those guys are trying to shoot 30 under every week, but let's just use the tour. They don't play a lot of 400 yard par fours.
So guys aren't banging it down there 3:30 and then having 70 yards in #1 #2 on par fives most often they're trying to reach into like that's just like an easy, yes, we all know the math that like you should try to hit it on in two and then make the putt. Like I, I can't believe I never thought of that. But but in terms of the, the, the 40 to 70 yard shot, it's probably a mistake.
So you typically hit one in an area that you don't want to be because why would a tour pro have 62 yards into a par 5? It like doesn't, it doesn't really make sense. They either like whiffed A3 wood. They you know what I mean? Like it's just a statistical anomaly that we found. And that's why I'm so glad to dig into this. Our guys don't practice it like being realistic. They don't have a lot of them, so they don't practice them. Therefore, they're probably not
that good at them. Now, if you're an average golfer and you play a bunch of 370 yard par fours, you bang at 300 yards down there, yeah, you're going to score better. But if you're a tour pro and you're playing, you know, 450 yard par fours every day, when are you going to have 50 yards in? Like it's just it's not a number that they oftentimes see. So the next time I want to like, challenge a tour player for money, I'm going to go drop the ball at 50 yards. No, I bet.
I bet they're still better. That's that's the problem. I play this game too with my guys. I'm like, oh, let's go play it at 62 yards and they hit it like 59 and I hit it, you know, 74. Like Tor. Tor pros are superhuman freaks. You know, you, you and I have seen that first hand many times. It's just a weird data set outlier where there's just not a lot of those shot opportunities. I think we looked at Scheffler was 1. He basically never had that. And that's partly due to good
decision making, number one. And then #2 not a lot of options. If you and I go out and play a 6500 yard course and we are absolutely bombing our drivers, we're going to have a ton of those. And should we start laying up to 90 yards? No, like we should bomb it down there as far as we can. I'm curious actually at Oakmont this week, I bet we'll see some because guys are going to hit in the rough so often where they're going to have weird numbers in and then hitting a 60 yard shot
out of the rough is not fun. So, OK, so you were digging around of how do I like when you're thinking about games and stuff to build for people, you're just not really going to do anything that's fitting in the 40 to 60 yard category. We, we do some, we do some it's just in terms of like, we love the warm up, like I know you did Lil Jon, right, 306090 It's good to do to, to, to have it in there.
It's a great warm up. So that if you are in that situation, you're like, oh, I, I have a feel for this. But basically like, I know DJ had a video a while ago, like how do you hit a 60 yard shot? He's like, I don't. And that was the whole catalyst for this idea of like, wait, do these guys actually have 60 yards in? And we kind of realized like they just never really hit that shot. And if they do, it's probably, there was probably a weird decision that led them to that
point. So our goal is like, let's just not hit it there. I mean kind of a different way to play. So I've gotten obsessed with distance wedges because I figured I was terrible at it, which I was. And then I've learned from a lot of great people the last year did really good video with Mark Blackburn where he went like really deep on it. John Sinclair, he's got a bunch of data from top players. And then then Claude, we spent some time talking about it there
as well. So like I really got into it, realized I was one terrible out at 2. I didn't understand the core concepts of it really even. And so it was just been super fun to figure it out and then work on it because it is like, gosh, I mean, how much time do your guys spend on distance wedges? Because Mark said his like his players are looking for a 2 yard kind of gap right from what they're trying to hit is is kind of the expectation. It's like. Yeah, I can share an anecdote of that.
So we do, we have a wedge test on our end and the best we've ever seen was world number one at the time. And two weeks before he won the Masters, he had a 1.2 meter distance gap from his 60° to his 7 iron of what he perceived. So we'd call the number he'd hit it and it was 1.7 yards basically from those clubs. Like it, it's superhuman. So yeah, Mark's dead on with that 2 yards. We typically find like Korn Ferry guys are somewhere in the
three to four range. If we were going to like, roughly estimate a mini tour, pros probably in the 5:00-ish range, 5:00 to 6:00. And then amateurs, I mean, it's just all over the map depending on, you know, if they work on it, how much they work on it. But yeah, in terms of like skill development time, it's a huge factor and and actually distance wedges on both ends of the spectrum. So let's talk about like the Super short hitters that play on
tour. We have a couple of those guys on on our GB Tor pros that don't hit it very far for them since wedges are maybe more important than the Super long guys, which sounds really like counterintuitive. But if you think about it, they can't reach par fives. And if they get in trouble, they're basically punching out. Let's assume they play Korn Ferry and they punch out. They have to make par with a wedge. They can't like bomb and 9 iron out of the rough, you know, 185
yards. They they just don't have that game. They got to punch it out and then they got a wedge it. And then on the other end, the Super high speed guys, I know it's really, really public information of what Claude and DJ did when DJ was world number one. They just turned into a video game like Claude. I don't know if you guys talked about that at all. Did you guys talk about that, what they did? Just a little bit, yeah. Touch on what they what they did.
Yeah, Claude basically turned it into a video game for him where all they showed DJ was the number and then he just tried to hit the number over and over and over again. I think that's one of the most important things in, in the last, I'd say 20 years of like data has been wedges because yes, everyone's optimized now with their drivers, but now we know exactly how far the ball is going. And it's also one of the downsides for for amateurs at home that might not have a launch monitor.
It is tough to work on wedges and like really precise distance when you're at your local driving range. And I'm using, you know, yellow balls at my local driving range. And some fly straight and some dive and some go a little short and some go a little long. So, so I I can fully empathize with with people. That's tough. What I have been struggling with lately is the concept is you want low launch, right? Low launch, high spin is
controllable. And I don't know if you have, you know any struggles with this, but man, controlling your launch angle can be really difficult. Like just this past week I've decided that anything under 85 is like is 60°, but anything over that, like I can't, I used to hit my 60 up to 100 yards and I just like I can't get the launch down on it. So I've just kind of, we've made a decision. I got to go to, you know, 55 for me from like 8085 yards on just cuz I, if I want to keep that
consistent like launch angle. And that's been a really big battle that I've been like trying to figure out and like constantly working on. Yeah, because you, you're a high speed player yourself. Like how? How hard have you found controlling launch angle and spin and like what clubs to hit where and what? Does wedges will always be tough for me and every other high speed guy, and I've used this analogy before, but it's like driving a Lambo in a school zone.
Like it's, it's really, really, really hard to drive the speed limit 30 miles an hour because you're taking so much speed off. It's always going to be a struggle. It's it's just, it is what it is.
Now that being said, we found some scenarios and some ways that are around that, whether it's through setup, whether it's through shot shape, I think is one of the best ones that we found guys adding a little bit more cut spin, you know, maybe driving in a like for one of my guys, he likes to hit a tight little draw with a wedge, but he pretty much only fades it. So finding out what works for you and basically throwing out
what you think is going to work. Like one of my guys sets up so far left that you basically, you look at him, you're like, where is he aiming? Well, he does that to eliminate his hips so that he can just get his arms working down cleaning up that contact. Because I think one of the things that you alluded to, the contact's the most important
part of wedge play. Like if you're a little chunky, if you're a little thin, everything else is thrown off like that is a strike game hitting the center of the face or you know, wherever your your strike location is with your wedge. Some guys even tell them like I know some, some of my guys will toe bang their wedges to kill spin. That's actually like a really cool way to do it. Really scary if you don't like if you don't practice it. But yeah, you can take a ton off
if you hit like a a toe bang. Little low draw, really cool shot. Sounds terrifying. Yeah, it's, it's trust me, some of the shots, I'm like, I don't know how these guys do it. They're they're superhumans. Like the things that they're thinking about again, like, I'm like, oh man, I just hope I, you know, cover the water. They're yeah, you know, they're thinking about like, the other thing is, is, is that AMS at home can't think about is, is ground spin. So pros control their spin
better than anything. So the trajectory is really important. But what is the ultimate thing? Like what is the ball going to do once it hits the the actual surface, right? That's the most important thing because your distance can be perfect. And let's go to that 60°. Say you have 95 yards. You can hit a 60° and 95 yards. I'm talking about you. The problem is in the Midwest summer you might RIP that thing
off the front of the green. So what good does it make if you have the perfect, you know, launch conditions and land angle it doesn't matter. Makes 0 difference. Yeah, no, I it's been really interesting to work on this. And I think one of the biggest things that that I've had to do is 1A launch miners non negotiable if you want to get a distance wedges, right. I've just been staring at I've been staring a lot at at launch angle and spin numbers and all
that. And then the other thing, I'm curious what you think about this. But I found like filming myself is just become essential because you see so much, you know, if you're out not working with a coach, right, you're just practicing like if you just have yourself, so you have to get some kind of feedback. So like, I don't know, I saw like, oh, it might look like your ball position is middle of your stance, but it's not.
It's like forward, you know, like stuff like that, that if you want to learn, then you got to look at some feedback. So I found, yeah, launch it. And then film. I don't know. Is video going to make a comeback? That's my. That's my. I don't know that ever left in my game, you know, the film and everything. So I think I'm the wrong one to ask on that. Definitely the wrong ones. I think the if you're working with a coach, trust your coach. And I always say this to people
like you need a guru, right? Like think about religion. Like there's people that are spiritual and they have like, you know, let's use the tour. They have like 6 different people they work with at once. Doesn't really typically work that well. Like you follow one leader, you follow one guy and, and I think the best players in the world have had that. They, they have one coach. So for them, they don't need to film. But for those of us at home, yeah.
I mean, if you're working on something like film it, it's a no brainer. The only kicker to that is like, are you A qualified to understand what's going on? For a lot of people, the answer's no. Like, and then B, did you find that video on Instagram that's talking about XYZ Tor Pro who does this? Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Maybe that's just their interpretation of what they're working on. And there's a chance that it's perfect for you.
Like there's a chance that you see the video, you see what you're doing and it matches. There's also a massive chance that like that person on Instagram misinterpreted what that player's doing. They're probably not their coach. And then you go out and try to fix a problem that you don't have.
So I always preface that by saying to people like you're in a different category where you get to work with the best coaches in the world every day and you get your swing thoughts and your swing feels for, you know, Joe on the driving range who watches a video of an Instagram influencer breaking down Victor Hovlin's swing, for example. Like, dude, who knows if that's what is is going to fix your
golf swing? So I'm always like, I'm always like very hesitant for people to copy what they think or, you know, if you're going to coach yourself, then like, hell yeah, dude. Like lock in film your own swings I would say. Though that like everybody could probably look at their setup and like at least give themselves 3. Percent right dude. OK so so let's do the like. Setup and ball position are the two things you can't fix
yourself. So and I I recently like got back into playing like more everyday basically golf. I took a little bit of break when I got tattooed and now I'm back to it the first 3 rounds no joke. Or training aids where I literally had my guys stand behind me and tell me where I was aimed because I'd be like OK I want to start it off there and they'd be like dude you're aimed a fairway right? And I had no idea or the ball position was weird. Could not agree more.
Either get a friend to check it for you that you trust or like you said, film it at the range and be like, OK, my ball position feels up here. Feel versus real is yeah, good Lord. I was. I was not aimed correctly. Yeah, it's funny you say that. So I was, we just did a video with Luke Benoit. He's he's up here and we're actually looking at it.
I don't, we weren't even talking about it, but he like just threw an alignment rod stick down and I was like aligned way farther left, probably a good 15 yards left to where I thought I was. And it's just like, this is stupid. I like, I, I actually, I think game's important and I like to so important practice it myself and like test myself on it. And I was like, no, I'm, I'm fine, I work on this, I've got this, but it's like, no, like you, you do not have this.
You're clearly far off. So yeah, I think maybe I I'd probably just gotten a bit too reliant on the on the stick down there during practice times. And then you know what, it happens to everybody, right? It's the most common training aid on on a driving range there's. A reason right like this is this is the fundamentals. I mean, grip, setup, posture, all those things are the fundamentals. And there's a reason the pros do them every day. Yeah, I love that.
Love that. And yeah, if you, if you can film it, then do it. For sure. The last thing with distance wedges that I want to talk about is the clock system because I've been working on this as I've been kind of trying to dial all this in and this was a lot of people talk about this. I think probably everybody I talked to has talked about this from Mark to Claude to, you know, like where you at and kind of filming yourself again,
filming yourself. And it comes in handy if you're working on that because you have no idea what 9:00 is by your feel. It's just a construct more more so in your brain, I feel like, but but the Grapevine says that that you don't you don't like the clock system. Yeah, the Grapevine is in 30 seconds before we started meeting like, Oh my God. You have to reveal how the research program works around here.
The the big great reveal. OK, so so I love the clock system for most players and I think it's like super effective, especially if you're a little bit longer, you have like a long action. And I think that my job is always to throw the hand grenade and just be like, wait a minute, but what about that one thing? So here's the problem with the clock system. There is a very particular player who is a big Spaniard who has a very short swing. How's he going to do the clock system?
He can't. And so designing games, how do I get, you know, John to hit a 70 yard shot? Well, it's a little bit different than, you know, someone who has a big long swing that's able to, you know, really feel that 1030 move. So I always preface to people like if you don't do the clock system, that's OK too.
There's other ways to take speed off and there's other ways to do it. The other thing is there's there's some amazing research that shows that your backswing length, like the longer your backswing, this is just like really simple stuff doesn't necessarily translate to more power or less power. Like there's guys who have short swings that flush it and hit the center of the face. They wouldn't be more powerful with more backswing.
So the same goes like for some players that go clock system and they go say they hit that like 10-30 wedge, they actually hit it better because they hit the center of the face. They compress it more. That's where they are like, let's say optimally, like that's their optimal strike zone, let's just call it. And then they end up hitting it further, which happens. So, so I always preface to people like, yes, basic 101, if you've never done it, use the
clock system. But also because it's my job to to understand the weird outliers. There are weird outliers that hit it further with shorter moves. Got it. We'll get back. I, I wanted to debate that, but we, we got to press on cuz I, we got to, I got to stay on track. Into that one. It's a fun one. Yeah, I guess you got to have some kind of swing thought though, right? Like you got to have some kind of feel to hit a distance cuz you can't.
I think where people get in trouble is they just try to hit a 70 yard shot. Like I think that's a poor kind of swing thought probably to have. So you do you agree you have to have some something? And by the way, I'm over. I overwhelmingly agree that a system works like I just, I couldn't agree more with. Yeah, the one weird anecdote is Johnny, who like literally can't have a shorter and he does like he takes speed off with a little
bit of a shorter move. That's something that him and TBI Dave works so hard on, and it will always be a big focus. That's just the one fun anecdote that I'm like, but wait, there's
one person that you know. Yeah, I guess what another thing which just, I don't know, a thought that Mark Blackburn said, which has just stuck with me for for probably the last year, just like a distance wedge viewed as like an underhand toss, which has been just such a like a great thought, so good how to approach it because I don't think many of us not I mean, there's always you could think of some people you kind of like speed through it and dig or say, you know, you kind of like,
but like this, this thought maybe next time of like an underhand toss and maybe you're using the clock system, maybe you're not. But it's like that is your maybe tempo or vibe that you go for. There you go. I'm handing out vibes from people. What I love about that actually is Mark and I will say all the best coaches in the world, they speak to players in a way that they listen and I think that's what makes them great. So you probably spent, I mean, how long did you spend with
Mark? Just just as like. Two days, yeah. OK, so you spent two full days with him. Like I'm sure he gave you some like PhD level super genius stuff. But like that one thing is what you walked away with. And when I've gotten to spend time with, as you have all the best coaches in the world, they are really, really good at taking a very complex thing, right? Just wedges is in general distance. Wedges are so hotly debated online. Wait till we start talking about short game.
Oh my God, those are my favorites. Like I love, love reading the short game debates, but the best coaches in the world are able to take a very highly complex issue and give it to you in a way that you could understand. You walked away from that and you're like, oh, it's an underhand toss. That's why Mark is so good at his job. That's why you know, Luke is amazing at his job is because they could give you things that
you could hear. And that's why, like some players match with some coaches and and some don't. But like, I love that for Mark. Like what a great analogy. Yeah, no, I think that's what great coaching is ability. It's the ability to communicate and relate to players 100%. I think that is why, I mean, that is why some coaches work for some players and some don't for others, like and that's a good thing, right? Yeah, that's good for for every player. OK, distance wages.
We we've covered a lot here. What else have we missed anything on this? What else have I been thinking about with? We've been talking about the wind. That is something that you and I have been with Nega obsessed with. I don't know if we're going to tease that or you want to get into it. That's. That's one you might as well well, it's relevant because Bryson's Oakmont video, I don't know if you watched that was
it's great. Like, first of all, that we're in a world where, you know, a top player is making a YouTube video before a major showing us a practical crown is like whatever you think of the whole, you know, his whole deal or YouTube in general. Like that's pretty freaking cool. If you told us that 10 years ago, I don't think anybody would have believed you. But part of his process is you will always hear him figure out what club to hit. And it is super specific.
It is a like an equation. And I think that's the opposite of how most people treat the wind distance and all those factors, right? Like it's like it's not a, oh, this is going to play a club long. That's not like, I don't think that's a good idea. I don't know what you think about that, but. Yeah, so first of all, like, how cool is that that top players are now using social media not as like a, I'm going to say like a self emotion thing, but more of like genuinely teaching
players. And like I think getting to see some of these matches in the behind the scenes, like, yeah, they're produced. Yes, there's an outcome and a goal. But like if you watch them, you can learn a ton from what they're doing and what they're. And a lot of guys are really open now, which is super cool about their struggles, about their challenges, things that they're working on things. Bryson's not one of my guys.
So I'm always like really clear about my guys and not, but I love watching the videos from afar and especially his process very unique, very different. Not how my guys do it, not how I do it, but I love learning and getting to see, hey, what is this dude who's winning all the time doing because it's working. It's very similar to his putting. He uses math and putting. I know there's some great guys that that use math and and that whole mine there too.
Wind for me, the obsession has been trying to understand the idea of a straight ball in the wind. OK, so let's just like start there, right? Let's assume that there's no wind and you're going to hit a 2 yard little little just beautiful high tour cut that falls in with A7 iron like everyone's towering fade dream. OK, so if you start there now you add a 10 mile an hour wind off the left. OK, so now that same 2 yard fade is going to move essentially with 10 yards of wind.
So now this is where the like Pandora's box for me. And like waking up at 2:00 AM in a cold sweat trying to understand how far left do you then aim? OK, let's start there. You hit the same shot shape. You just now have to aim the equivalent of whatever 10 yards left is with your ball. Let's start there. Now that brings in a massive problem set.
You might be starting out over water, you might be starting it out over a bunk, whatever it is hazards, OK, or you change your swing dynamics and you hit a straight ball. Well, in order to hit a straight ball with a 10 mile an hour left wind, your swing dynamics have to change. And so as I could see your eyes just like beginning to, you know, do the process. This has been such a fun conversation and like shout out Chris Brodie, Marty Durst.
I know you had Marty on there. Like King has the best ball lab in the world by far. Like those guys are super freaking genius and I text them like randomly I'll be like Chris, like what about this idea? You know, what about this? And so that has been like, I don't even know how to describe it. This has been my like pet project for a really long time. What? What you'd set it up? What? What's the answer? OK, so the answer is if the answer is twofold, you're either
actually it's not true. There's three potential outcomes. You either hit your normal stock shot shape. You just play what you estimate the wind to do to your golf ball. Pings ball labs amazing and it can simulate your 7 iron. You just have to start it. Let's just say I'm going to use a a a #12 yards more left of whatever you think you would do. Or I have a friend, John Tattersall, who's obsessed with
the straight ball. So in order to hit the straight ball, then you'd essentially have to hit like a tight little draw that starts at the pin and doesn't move because in order to counteract the left wind, you'd have to hit the draw. So now you have two shot shapes that goes against the people who are like, well, you need one shot shape. Then it adds into the idea of what about, you know, 20 miles an hour wind. Now what do you do?
And then what do you do with a driver where most guys only have one shot shape? So it's just been this like really fun exploration of trying to understand. I don't believe in anything in golf. There's a right way by the way, like I like you've heard, you've probably heard me say that at some point, like there's no right way to do it because if there was, everyone would do it. The Tour is so competitive. We're all trying to find
margins. To me, it's just like my brain trying to rationalize lowest score expectation outcomes for the best players in the. World let's let's go through like a a quick process though that people should be doing right? Like so you have a shot, let's just say fairway, you're going to have least amount of variables there. You're you need to know your average yard just going to go with your shot shape.
And then when let's say 10 miles an hour of wind straight into are we at 10% off or we at 10 yards off? What's that? It depends on this is the kicker, right? So it depends on your what you're trying to do with the shot. We know this. We know that when the wind is dead into our your face, your dispersion becomes wider east to West. That's always that's ping shout out balamic like that's going to be a thing. You're going to have a wider dispersion. Here's the other kicker question.
Do you then try to flight it or do you hit your stock shot and you just allow the wind to knock it off because again, stock shot. OK, OK, So then like, yeah. But like in Florida, for example, let's just assume you're using your stock shot and it's blowing 30 in your face your seven hour and might go 112 yards. Like, you know, who knows? Whatever. You just go home. You go home is. The answer at that point, those are the days that you take up a new hobby and you text your friends.
You're like, why did I do this? Like why am I paying for this? I'm paying for abuse. So to answer your question, you're middle fairway. You have a 7 iron and you you you then estimate the win. So there's a ton of apps out there. I don't know if tournaments allow guys depending on like I know in the minor league tour out here, what not guys can use live wind. That's it. I don't know.
I don't know what like your state Golf Association would say about that, because if you can get live win data, hell yeah, that's a game. Changer. Interesting. I'd never I haven't heard of that one. OK, so let's say if we have 10 miles an hour in, we're just going to take 1010 yards off, right? So.
Yeah, depends on the guy. This is something that you would that we do it where we go out and literally chart guys distances with like OK, I have a 7 iron, it's 10 miles an hour in. I'm going to hit my stock shot. I'm going to flight 1. Let's see the difference again because some guys hit it better when they flight it. So that becomes a problem. So this is just knowing your game and understanding maybe your ball effects more than
mine. Maybe like I have a guy, you know, shout out Ryan Gerard. Ryan Gerard hits literally flat cuts that we all laugh about. Like I'll be standing on T, I'm longer than him on the T, but I'll stand on the T and I'll have a six iron and he has like a nine iron and I'm going like what in got like one of us is so far off right now on this par 3, but he hits literally like a flat cut that doesn't get touched by the wind. So for people at home, it's
owning your game. It's owning your decision maker. It's understanding like a Daniel Berger, for example, it's like the most gorgeous chip cut you've ever seen, playing completely differently than a Rory who hits like a towering high draw. So that would be #1 like who are you as the player? And then two, understanding that your dispersion's going to be a little bit wider east West, and I would say probably picking a bit more conservative target.
Those would be the two big decision making things that I would start with shot shape, understanding A a real sensible target. Let's just use that word and then strike right? Like you got to hit the center of the face in order to get the ball to do what you wanted. Yeah, yeah. And then downwind, we're going that it's that it's probably half of the of the wind then, yeah. I think that's what the math is sorted out, isn't that it? Doesn't it wind?
From what I remember it affects your ball into more than it helps you downwind. Although downwind it does tighten it and then it creates again like land angle is a big one where like descent angle trying to understand what the ball is going to do like this. I think in Oakmont it's going to be a huge one where guys who can hit the ball high, they can stop it versus if your descent angle is steep, you're going to hit it and bounce through. You know some of those those
pool table type greens. I think, I think the biggest shift for people to make is just start doing a bit of math before before they pull a club. I'm not just trying to guess into the wind and say, all right, this is a, you know, I'm going to chip this one instead of this one just because you just get in so much trouble if you aren't, if you're not a tour pro, you get a lot of trouble when you start to manipulate and like, I'm going to chip this low and like, you don't ever really
practice. So you don't actually know how far that goes. And then you like, you're just saying you're still, you're about. Practicing that shot every day that like we always say, like Daniel Berger hits the best chip 6 iron in the world. Like he can hit that thing 165 yards and it's just, it's literally Picasso painting like it is and the most beautiful. But if you're a dude who doesn't practice that shot, then yeah, like go with what you've practiced.
Go with the shot that you've hit on the driving range and you're like that hundred and you know that 7 iron, I might just be a little, I'm gonna hit my stock shot. I'm going to come up a little bit short. And I accept that. That's totally a wonderful outcome. I think people at home, the, the you alluded to it like understanding and owning your game. We all want to be better. I show up every day. I'm like, today's the day I'm shooting 56. Like I'm that guy.
I'm going to do it. But at the end of the day, it's like I have to make decisions based on my skill level today. And it can be humbling and it can be frustrating and it can be disappointing. But at the end of the day, like trying to get the most out of what you bring to the golf course, that day is the best because then you can get better by, you know, little by little by little. Other other factors water I did a test. I was out of pink. Did the test well that driver
goes shorter, way shorter. Yes, it was cool. I was literally like back-to-back shots was 20 yards shorter with with little water on the golf ball. So that three nuts. That Ferrity interview with Phil where he's in the leather jacket shout out Phil the homie Phil talking about ball going shorter over water and. If you get a little bit of water in between the club face and the ball, people don't know it actually increases spin I. Remember talking about that and being like, dude, there's like
zero chance. Like, come on, Phil. And he was like, no, I'm dead serious. Like the ball goes shorter over the water, like even with an 8 iron in the morning on a par 3. And then sure enough, like you went to paint and it's a real. And I was like, you know what? Hell yeah, Phil? Like, I love that. I freaking love that listening to that guy talk about. It's one of the most amazing things.
And like anyone that has the chance to watch it, listening to him talk about reading lies is one of the coolest things I've ever seen a tour pro do. Like when the ball is on the ground, predicting what it's going to do once it lands, I think is one of the coolest things I've ever gotten to see in golf. Being like, OK, it's sitting a little bit down, this is Bermuda, It's going to bounce once release and I'm going to hit this shot that is like mega sicko stuff. I agree. I agree. OK.
And then but with water though, wedges go farther cuz it the water you lose friction. So they they spend less, they go farther. That's the IT flips. So that's another thing to think about like when gauging it. What do you what do you guys do when the math comes to like being in the rough, being in the fairway, being on the T like off a par 3T goes a little bit farther right I. Think it depends on the other thing. It depends on the water of like balls go shorter over water from
what I've understood too. I think it's like a very small percentage. But again, like these guys are playing for the margins. But yeah, keeping your golf ball dry is everything. Like once you get moisture on there, I know you did that with Ping, like mud balls, moisture, your club face, all of that, like that. That's the bare minimum of like, yeah, dude, clean your ball off and keep it dry. That's I need to be better about it. I think we all do, you know. Yeah. OK.
So we've got our wind conversation. You you're going to tell us I guess the answer. I guess I'll give you my answer. I don't think that any of us should probably Jack around with trying to hit a draw or whatever to be based on the wind. We should just try to hit our shot and then do it based on the win because I I know that I'm not going to hit a better shot if I'm trying to hit a draw into the wing to hit it straight, it's probably not going to go any closer than if I just play it as is.
I can hear my business partner, I can hear my business partner, the mathematician Kev, who just like is screaming at me to hit a freaking fade because and here I am like, dude, I bet I could sling hook this thing in there right now, you know? So so yes, I mean, it's pretty well established that like guys who hit the ball with a relative neutral shape, I'm not going to say one way because I I will die on the hill that I think you need to be able to hit tight dispersion shots.
I'm not saying one way is the way. I'm not saying both ways is the way. I'm saying the best players in the world have very little curve on their golf ball. Some guys love to curve the ball. Bubba is the great example. He do as I say, not as I do. Good Lord, am I hitting freaking slingers, partner. Like I have 2:50 the other day. I'm hooking A5 iron over the water.
I got houses right? And there's a reason that I don't play their Professional Golf like there's a, there's a reason that I shoot a lot of as, as one of my friends said, 60 fours that turn into 70 threes like it's you. Know I like that it's not like. That not great, but but we're trending and as I could hear Kev just like screaming in the background like 10 yards left of this pin like hit a fade. I'm like dude this is the one like I can jar this like I. I see it. I'm an artist.
I'm an I am. Don't let me tell you. Me paint by numbers. There's Picasso and then there's the little kids drawings on the refrigerator and, you know, mines probably somewhere in between there. I I feel like that's a good visual for people to end on. Then our, our chat we've got, we've got more things to talk about here. We'll have to, we'll have to get on regularly here with you and and do it under a list of fun things because you, you're always having good conversations
out there. I, I, I just like the Gray area, right? I love nuance. So to me, like I love, by the way, I love hardliners. It's like my favorite thing in the world. Like if you are a true believer, like if you are a sicko that says you should only hit the ball one way, like get in my DMS. Like, if you are a freaking short game lunatic that says like, there's only one way to do it, like, hell yeah, get in my DMS, Let's talk. I I just love hearing people who are like mega ultra passionate
about their thing. I guess I've always loved that because for me, my job is to understand large swaths of data. Like, if I have a guy who's going to try a crazy putter, I'm trying it too. If, if you know, you think I remember one of the cool things last summer was like D0 wedges. That was like a, a fun short game concept. Like hell yeah, yeah, dude. Like get in the DMS. Let's talk about it. Let's get some Q&A's going for for this pod. I would, I would love to hear.
I like that. OK, we'll get some questions next time. We'll find some people with some strong opinions and we'll and we'll talk about it. But dude, thank you. People should follow you on Instagram. That's always a good follow. They can find find what you're working on and watch how much you're playing golf. Playing a lot of golf these days. And be jealous of that, I'm definitely not. And then golf blueprint.com is that is that the correct URL? That's us. Yeah, yeah. Golf Blueprint.
We're we're, we always laugh. We're giving away everything. You're just posting it on Instagram. And, you know, whatever, whatever I'm researching, whatever I'm talking about that day, our poor, our poor business team consisting of my mom and Kev's wife are just like, will you stop giving away the farm on Instagram every day? But I'm, you know, just posting stuff. Love it. All right, people should go follow along on those then. Thanks Nico. So stoked. Good to hang out.
Talk to you next. Time. This is the best. See you soon.