Gayish: 297 Demi

when you know that you were queer but your favorite drink is beer. That skittish. You can bottom without stopping, but you can't stand going shopping. That's cash. Ok. You're probably fish. Life's just too short for narrow stereotypes with mike and kind Hello, everyone in the podcast universe. This is gaish, the podcast that encourages you to be yourself. Everyone else has already seen the movie taken. You're just, you're striking at the heart of my identity as a human. I knew it. I knew it.

Mike johnson, I have a specific set of queers. I'm Kyle gets we're here to pitch the gap between sexuality and actuality. And today we're in a mood today we're going to talk about Demi because I think this, I don't know, this will be interesting. We're gonna talk about Demi Demi Demi Demi Well, no, the app Demi great because of the Yeah, because reasons. Well, yeah, we're gonna talk about the orientation, the gender and the person. Yeah. Well, one of them, one of them.

But well, I mean, that's why I said Demi not to me, right? Yeah. Okay. But first, but first feedback and corrections I thought, you know, we get, we get a lot of feedback and um it's almost always like, you know, the correction stuff or like negative stuff. But I just every once in a while I just want everybody to know that we do read your notes and that they're lovely. And you mean the things we read two people are the negative correction. Yes, we get it.

I was like, we get mostly negative, you know, in our email inbox, we get a lot of nice things and we don't always, but here's one of them. High folks just wanted to say thank you for your podcast. I'm a buy dude who grew up on the missionary field to super conservative, fundamentalist christians out there to save the heathens. Your podcasts helped me be comfortable with who I am. And it's really funny. T. J. Oh, that is, you're right.

We do pick the, it's, it's good to correct ourselves or read things that are not of, you know, our opinion or all that ship, but you're right. That then just like we don't only get that stuff. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks for listening. And we do legit read everything that comes through our email facebook instagram like everything. So I can't, it's enough that we can't respond to every single thing either. Unfortunately. Hashtag first world podcast problems like right, But, but thank you for yeah.

And now the news, shut your mouth hole. It's time for your ear holes. News, News, news. Okay, Kyle, do you remember um, the song hold me closer by Elton john, which was remixed into the Britney Spears song. No, tiny dancer, which would make it to hold me closer is the news about Britney Spears a new song, Hold me closer. I don't, did you stop knowing what I was talking about?

I just, I'm, I am very seriously considering whether I even want to like validate anything that you just said bye, dignifying it with a response. Okay. Um so do you remember last year when Pete took parental leave and the republicans lost their goddamn minds, kind of like anything vaguely shitty? You can say to me that the republicans did. I would probably be like, Yeah. Yeah, I guess I remember that.

I mean, they were accusing him of he's the secretary of the Department of Transportation and they were saying we've got supply chain breakdowns and there's all this sh it wrong with the country. Why are you going on parental leave? Pete, you sucking dick bag. Well, so Pete and his husband Cheston have just explained exactly what was going on with them. Um They're both of their Children had severe health issues and one of them almost died.

They were in the hospital during that period of time trying to not have their baby die. Yeah. So uh it was it was it was it was interesting. So, so says that in medium there's a new piece in in in the publication medium, and they talk a whole bunch about like, what it's like to be dads and what their whole experience has been like. Um but they had their uh their their kids were born in september twins, twins. Penelope Rose and joseph august and uh they were indeed adopted, quote.

It's what they call a surprise adoption scenario. A mother had given birth that day and wanted to arrange adoption. The agency explained that there were some sensitive circumstances and potential health complications for us away but also that we would need to quickly decide whether we were prepared to travel to the rural hospital and begin the process and one more thing to consider it was twins.

So they decided that indeed that worked for them and they hopped in the car and drove to the hospital. Imagine like being that person giving birth and then being like the fucking secretary of transportation shows up and you're like, hello, I don't think this is an issue for you. Like Yeah. Um but yeah, yeah, yeah. Like who knows what famous assholes gonna show up and try to take your babies. I don't know. That's the funniest spin on this story.

Famous asshole takes babies like I know that's horrible but I love anyway, they were born premature and they had a bunch of health issues, which is common among among Children who are born premature. And uh, so then their, their, their son joseph got a respiratory infection. They also had both of them had like severe reflux issues but quote by october we had started to feel more confident and comfortable with all the routines and surprises of parenting.

Then one day the kids got a cold soon it was a cough, then Penelope started to have trouble breathing over facetime. Our doctor expressed concern about the way her belly was retracting under her ribs as she worked to take in air Chasson drove her to the emergency room while I stayed home with Gus, that's joseph's nickname. His skin took on a modeled look. And by the next day he was admitted to the hospital too.

Just as we had during our first days with them, we again learn to live out of a hospital room. This time in Traverse City, we would take turns shuttling supplies from home and sleeping by the kids aside and I would try to not distract the nurses when the phone rang with a work call uh turned joseph took a turn for the worse and had to be intubated and was transferred to a Children's hospital in grand rapids michigan. Uh, Pete wrote that quote.

I was reminded of my father whose last days played out on a ventilator in an I. C. I. C. U. Room like this as he lost his battle with lung cancer and as all of this was going on, he still had to work, he was still the secretary of transportation. Um the kids are now both a year old and currently healthy. But it's just really interesting to me that, you know republicans who are supposed to be the party of family values fucking jumped on this ship and you're goddamn right.

It's because they're gay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The family values mean traditional meaning. They're supposed to be a woman here, that's supposed to be home taking care. Like that's what that's that's what they mean. And so when it's two dudes, they can't even comprehend what that means. And also like even in a straight couple like the father can go home and take care of his kids like that.

Yeah, there's also the game I think of like well I didn't know that their kids were in the hospital should they have said so, but they also probably shouldn't have had to that. I think I'm noticing this more and more, I think so often the blame gets.

We start to question whether the person that is being attacked or the victim were harmed were like what should they have done better differently when ruth Bader Ginsburg died, this happened where everyone's ruth Bader Ginsburg should have quit earlier so that it's like you know what?

Rather than blaming her, the person that's fought for justice and equality, especially for women and for LGBT people and everyone let's blame the people that fucking are causing the issue, which is republicans so much blame gets put on the people for not making perfect decisions that are in these scenarios. So I I understand why people would ask why people would think and reflect on the timing.

Also it's the republicans that should not be attacking someone who's dealing with kids and you should let people do their own thing with healthcare and with childcare. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, the victim blaming thing, you're super right and it's not, I didn't even think about it as that. But you're absolutely right. And as I've been thinking about it, I see it all the time.

Someone in response to our Singapore episode was like on twitter was like the LGBT advocates pushed for, you know, to remove that section from the penal code and they barked up the wrong tree and got, you know, an outcome they didn't want which is added to the constitution. It's like, okay, you're blaming the LGBT advocates for pushing to decriminalize homosexuality.

No, let's blame the religious groups and the politicians for doing the shitty thing of adding it, yep, you'll see it all the time now. Yeah. Well, I also I would be remiss if I didn't also include a piece of listener feedback right here. I have on the show said that I think that that Pete and Cheston are heteronormative and that's why they're palatable as political figures. And I thought this was really interesting. SJ texted us to the hotline.

Hey guys, I think the word you're looking for when you talk about homo normative or homo normative, itty love the show and appreciate that you try to be trans inclusive, take care. SJ and homo normative itty at least according to Wikipedia is the privileging of heteronormative ideals and constructs onto LGBT culture and identity. It is predicated on the assumption that the norms and values of heterosexuality should be replicated and performed among homosexual people.

Yeah, that's yes, that's the word. That yeah, I just didn't I didn't realize I didn't realize that there was a better word. I think it I think it's it is still heteronormative, at least those are the ideals that I'm identifying and this word encompasses that and the projection of it on to gay people. So i it's it's a better word. Thanks for the Okay, listen, Alright, news. The second, the second. Great.

So the biden administration has outlined a plan for fighting HIV infection with the goal of eliminating it by 2030. So they are taking a multi pronged approach here. But they are are are looking at uh a combination of prep and education, antiretrovirals, HIV testing and other efforts to remove stigma, Get more education out there and barriers to health care, like insurance schemes and public health. So I think it's really it's cool. I hope they can do it.

I don't know that they're gonna get there because anytime you bring up this kind of stuff, you'll get backlash from republicans who are like, HIV that's gay, that's it. Fight it. It's bad. But also like whether or not they hit a goal like setting a goal for yourself is helpful in getting closer to that. So that's great that they have uh do they have a smart goal?

It seems like uh this plan is specifically targeting gay bisexual and other men who have sex with men, particularly black latino american indian and Alaskan native men. I was gonna add that that community is particularly affected both by like historical mistreatment by the health care system and being forgotten within the LGBT community. So like that's that's great that they are aware of that and focusing on that community.

So interesting like when people are like well why don't black people go to the doctor more and like because first of all There's a huge poverty problem, right? And barrier to access. But second of all, do you know what Tuskegee was all about fucking educate yourself. Black people and like medical practices in this country do not have a good history. Anyway. The plan also targets black women, trans women and young people between 13 and 24 years old and intravenous drug users as well.

Yeah. So so thanks. Thanks. Obama. I hope it works. News the last oh my God Kyle. I'm Yeah. Okay well so just just today uh there was a straight today sunday. Yeah there's a straight pride parade in Modesto. And uh it was organized by anti L. G. B. T. Q. Plus, an anti abortion group. Uh and it has ended in violence. So Modesto Police Department said around 250 people fought outside a planned parenthood as part of a straight pride event. It's organized by the National Straight Pride Coalition.

It was yesterday sorry saturday. Uh none of the people who were arrested as part of this lived in that county. So it just became this like lightning rod. But the network, the national Straight Pride coalition says that they celebrate quote heterosexuality, masculinity, femininity babies born and unborn and Western straight civilization. Our wonderful country and Christianity. So the I'm sorry you absolutely read the Republican Party plan this this coalition.

They have connections to the proud boys. So you know, you know they're good. Um But apparently when they showed up hundreds of L. G. B. T. Q. Plus people had already assembled and were there waiting for them and then it got violent. So the number of pro LGBTQ plus people far outnumbered the straight pride goers. Um The the the counter protesters came carrying signs that read fascists aren't welcome and straight pride is hate pride.

About 20 minutes later Modesto police declared it an unlawful assembly called on both groups to disperse after a firecracker ignited a bush and objects were thrown. Um This this is it's not funny Kyle, This whole thing is not funny. But if there's a funny part to this it is this the L. G. B. T. Q. People retreated to planned parenthood and Straight pride retreated to Wendy's ah yes the safe streets Safe Haven Wendy's you're safe here. Straight people.

Yeah they should get like a safe place sticker that's just I don't know what the whatever straight pride flag is or something. It's like you're safe to be straight here at Wendy's I'm fine with straight people and I'm okay with their orientation. But it seems like they're gathering is always turned violent. I just don't like all of the violence that comes out of straight people. That's right. That's right. Indeed. Property damage should not be tolerated.

Mhm. Um Well, speaking of property damage, we've been wrecking these wallets. Thank you. Following remembers Troy arias, who sounds like he was probably on Troy Areas. That sounds like a character on high School musical. Sounds latin. Okay. Uh swing you that you're taking? Orlando? Orlando Orlando boom. Um, Butler's daddy. But Butler is your daddy? Rich Butler's daddy. Get a separate subscription for Butler. Butler deserves it. Um Daddy and Lindsay. Hey alec Lindsay, Thank you. Hey, like me?

You get that all the time. Sorry, thank you so much. If you want us to make the obvious joke about your name, go to patreon dot com slash podcast. We have 35 bonus episodes alone, plus bonus segments for every single episode. So there's a lot. There's a lot more of us. Should you tell us? Butler's daddy? Let us know what to think after you listen. Do you wanna talk about Demi? Alright, man, what, what an adventure. So we're doing this is your fault. This is my fault.

Um I'm I'm anxious and nervous, are you okay? Because because your stuff, Is that why you wanted to go last. Okay, great. Yeah, are you gonna cry? You know, let's find out together. I thought last night. I thought I have very much been under like personally just as we've been planning this like under selling some of these conversations and kind of like, let's do this. It's a personal like, you know, we we haven't done something that's very personal and you know, like so it made sense.

But also I have been kind of underselling it partially because I'm like extremely nervous. So we're gonna talk about you first. We're gonna talk about another one of the like generally don't attempt to look at someone or investigate someone and decide what their orientation gender what labels they should use. Like don't do that. That's shitty do as we say don't do as we do to each other, y'all because we're friends and sure you're listening in but like it's different.

I think, okay, that's something I don't think people understand is like there are all these recommendations on, you know what to do, how to, how to handle LGBT issues, how to handle transitions, how to like all of these general recommendations are also like, you know, your friends best you and I can do this with each other.

I can say, I think you're this label, you wouldn't do that to a random on the internet, but like we're friends so we know we have the relationship like, you know your friends best allegedly we'll find out if this podcast is to be believed. Um you know, your friends best, you know what's appropriate for your friendship.

So don't let the, I think especially non LGBT people let the general rules that they hear then affect their actual personal friendships where they're like, I don't want to ask you about this thing because I know you're not supposed to put the burden of educating on. It's like, you know, we're friends though, like you that doesn't fit our relationship, you know, that we ask each other stuff and talk, you know, so we're gonna make content.

Okay, I'm okay, I'm going to talk to you talk to you about Demi sexuality. You have been accused by some, some, some minimum of one person in this room has accused you. Yeah, of being Demi sexual. We're gonna talk about that. I did want to do a brief like history, but like an etymological sense because I think these things are interesting history. Do you awesome doesn't include like where the the prefix Demi comes from. Okay, great.

So words that start with the letters D E M I. So that that prefix that you add comes from the latin meaning from the middle or in the middle, which I think is a bad name. I don't know like sexually in the middle, what they're going after is that you're somewhere between a sexual and alot sexual.

That there's a spectrum of like horny to not horny and that you're in the middle of that somewhere and I think that that's a gross oversimplification of what Demi sexuality actually is and how it's defined. It also gets conflated sometimes with gray sexual, which I'm not going to super go into.

But like one thing that everybody is in agreement about is that Demi sexuality falls somewhere on the a sexual spectrum, meaning people whose sexual attraction is not the norm or the typical is that I think oversimplification, especially when looking at labels. Part of the importance is or like part of the thing that I've noticed is all of them are over simply calling yourself gay extremely oversimplifies these things. And I think we have a tendency to want them to be fully descriptive.

And and every because of such a variety of human experiences, we we try to come up with words that categorize things. But yeah, I agree. They're gross oversimplifications, but that's just language and words and labels, so Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, that's a good point. That's good feedback. Thanks Thanks for being here and saying words on your podcast. I do it every week. So what is damaged sexuality?

I think this is hilarious demo sexuality dot org is a treasure trove of all about this shit. They say Demi sexuality is a sexual orientation in which someone feels sexual attraction only to people with whom they have an emotional bond. Most homosexuals feel sexual attraction rarely compared to the general population and some have little to no interest in sexual activity.

So that describes a surprising number of people, at least according to the information that I can find Demi sexual uh sexuality dot org does link to a whole bunch of resources about this and the way that it's studied. Um There was a 2016 community survey of self identified Asexuals. And uh they said that asexuals represents somewhere like in the 1% range of humans. And of those only about 8.8.6% of them identified as Demi sexual. And uh that was the second smallest showing after the ubiquitous.

None of the above asked. Like which of these describes you the best. So really since about 1% of the population identifies as a sexual according to the U. S. News and World Report. Um that means it's likely that less than 1/10 of 1% of the population identifies as homosexual. But like with a lot of human percentages that's still a ton of people write their own people. And these are conversations that I think we have not been having at least in the last generation. So I think.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and um that's that's true. It's this whole thing that you talk about a lot on the show of like it's not new, we just have a label now and that is a vehicle to talk about it. So it seems like it's more prevalent when it's when it's when it's when it's not. Um studies studies have shown that Demi sexuality is a legitimate uh sexual orientation.

There are lots of rumors out there that like it's fake or there's just a desire for a label or it's prudes who want to show their moral superiority by labeling themselves that for the purpose of shaming others. None of that's true. It's it's it's an actual legit orientation that someone neither chose nor can help. So nor change, which is interesting intentionally. Anyway, there's no conversion therapy for homosexuality. Okay, so a lot of that stuff seems in line with the asexuality overall.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So the word homosexuality was first coined by user on the a sexual visibility and education network to A. V. N. In 2006. So A. V. N. Started in 2001 and in 2006 this user made the word Demi sexuality. So there are a bunch of questions on the page. What is Demi sexuality that I think are worth talking about? Um what is the emotional bond, demo sexual need for sexual attraction? And the answer here is that it is it's different for everyone.

It's a spectrum like everything else. So many of these definitions are like, you both want something like some kind of definition and there are a lot of, some people do like some people experience this, some people experience this and so it's it's hard to be both inclusive of lots of different experiences but also give something a definition so we can understand just overall. Yeah. Absolutely. So usually emotional intimacy is a main component.

So dem a sexual find themselves attracted to close friends or romantic partners, but just having an emotional bond also doesn't mean that a sexual attraction is going to happen. It's just that it has to happen. One of the questions here, is it normal? Isn't it normal to only want sex after getting to know someone. That's why I had that written in the notes. That this is this is the noise that you knew that noise just come out of my mouth, s s and P smashed into random.

Um so, so most people, most alot sexual feel sexual attraction regardless of whether or not they have a close emotional bond with someone and they may have sexual feelings for attractive people on the street classmates or coworkers they've barely spoken to or celebrities now, they might wait to have sex for a variety of reasons, it might not be feasible or appropriate. They want to make sure the person is respectful and kind it's against their religious beliefs.

They only want to have sex in a romantic relationship. The difference is that Demi sexual don't start out with these sexual feelings at all. There are other other other questions in here. But uh one thing, one thing I thought that we could go through is there's another article of what Demi sexual is Demi sexuality is not Demi sexuality is not only having sex with people you love.

So Demi sexual folks can can, can bang whoever, whether they love them or not emotion, emotional attachment doesn't necessarily mean, like, you're in a relationship, you're in love, you're Yeah. Right. Yeah, exactly. So it just means that there has to be an emotional bond of some, some kind, it's not abstaining from sex until marriage. Uh people think demo sexual are waiting until marriage.

That that's that that's a that's a not that they don't think of it as a sexual orientation, but they think of it as like a lifestyle choice, that once they're in a committed relationship, then the floodgates are open and they'll be horny all the time and want to bang. Um and uh it's also not how most people or women operate normally, and it's just reiterating that, like, it's a sexual orientation and these people are legitimately different.

Um not and not how people operate normally, like, meaning it isn't uncommon, like most people are not this, it's not that it's bad enough that it's just uncommon. Yeah, yep. Exactly. So getting to, I'm gonna talk about me now. Okay, great, I think I have said a lot on the show that anonymous sex doesn't work for me and that I need to have some kind of a level of relationship or trust built with someone.

If I'm to have a pleasurable sexual encounter, where I have struggled with the label of Demi sexual, which someone may or may not have used for me once on this show, uh eric is that the the number of places where it's at least in in the literature that I find in my sexuality, out of work, blah, blah, blah. Is that you don't feel sexual feelings at all until that has been built up, and that's just not true.

Like, I will go to the bar and be like, oh, he's hot, oh, he's hot, oh, he's hot and and be very physically attracted to someone and whatever they have going on. The stuff that I read about demo sexuality seems to preclude that. I just think that the labels are less, aren't they less prescriptive than that. Like, does it say every like, you never have, no one has sexual feelings. Like, it always seems like I'm saying, like, all of them seem to say like, most or some people don't. Others too.

But Yeah, well, so I found an article on Best Life and I think we've been to that site before. Don't know if it's reputable or not, Don't care. Here we go, signs of homosexuality. And I'm just gonna talk about like, how I feel about them. Maybe you can talk about how you feel about them too, so we can compare notes, dem a sexual people usually aren't big fans of physical touch.

Now, I vehemently do not identify with that physical touch is my love language and, like, I'm down for a good cuddle sesh with a perfect stranger at any point in time. Um I don't know, you don't like hugs.

I don't know, I don't know, I'm weird about physical touch, but that's for like other reasons because I like that's like body image issues and like, I don't know, trust issues are like, yeah, there's but there are multiple kinds of, there are multiple kinds of attraction and sexual and romantic are the two most common.

I mean, even breaking it down like, You know, homosexual home, a romantic, like those two things are often the same, but breaking that down is often the first step to understanding like, oh there's different levels. There's also there are even beyond that more. There there's and I looked them up like some people are like their five, they're 10, they're 32.

But like the ones that kept coming up sexual romantic, there's also physical, so that is wanting to cuddle someone but not necessarily fuck someone like there, that's physical attraction to someone. It's not it's it's for a lot of people connected to sexual attraction, but not necessarily. I wanna cuddle Griffin Mcelroy. So I think I have a physical attraction that Griffin Mcelroy. Um let's let's consider Demi sexual from the lens of Griffin. That's how I think will be helpful to evaluate this.

Um there's also emotional attraction which you've been mentioned in this and there is aesthetic attraction that is as an example, a completely straight dude looks at chris Hemsworth and like, yes, that looks good. I don't want to fund him. I don't want to date him. I can tell that he is an attractive man. That's aesthetic attraction. So part of why I bring that up is because like, that wanting to like wanting physical touch, whatever is not necessarily the same as, like, sexual attraction.

That doesn't mean that you want a sexual. Yeah, So that's yeah, Demi sexual. People usually aren't big fans of physical touch. I think that that's that's an interesting like, maybe maybe you disagree. Oh no, no, no. I I don't know enough to disagree with what they say. Okay, I was going to say this later, but I'll say it now. So there is this thing I'm very torn. I'm torn about this label for myself for a number of reasons, and I'm happy to go to go into those.

But this quote when I was like, absolutely not. I'm completely not demo sexual. There's just no way. And I have a whole like, argument for that that I'll go into. But uh, this this quote, like sort of sort of is the thing that has had me spinning all morning quote many Demi sexual confused sensual attraction, wanting to touch cuddle etcetera with sexual attraction. And it can be difficult to differentiate the two. I have felt sensually attracted to people, but not sexually attracted.

And I know this because the thought of cuddling with them is pleasant, but the thought of doing anything sexual with them feels weird. You might conduct a similar thought experiment if you're wondering whether or not you're sexually attracted to someone.

And I definitely, I just so torn Kyle, I'm so torn because for me I will see a hot dude, I'm like immediately down with like a whole range of things that I want to do with that person, I want to touch that person, kiss that person cuddle with that person, rub up on that person. Like all of those things are very immediate.

Then there's also like, I want, I want to do stuff with our penises together that would be fun and, and then maybe anal, but that's actually I'm not a side, but that's like that comes last out of my like desire of things to do with someone.

And so then in a hookup though, I'll end up going home with that person or bringing that person home if I haven't built up enough of a trust with that person if we do any of those level two or level three things and by that, I mean, blowjobs are anal, I will maybe sometimes even likely have a panic attack and won't enjoy it and will want to leave and but it feels about it, it feels like it's about safety, I get up in my head, I don't trust this person, I don't know this person, this isn't fun,

How am I going to get through this? And then my boner goes away and um, I'm like unsatisfied and embarrassed. What's interesting to me though is I always, I always want to, I always, I always feel like this is like what I want for myself and like sometimes the stars align and it's magical and it's wonderful and it's exactly what I wanted. Like a slot machine, It keeps coming, keeps me coming back for more like a slot machine.

I keep putting my quarters in that slot machine because I get a perfectly fun, awesome, wonderful jackpot payout often enough that it keeps me going. So it, it doesn't feel like it's anything constitutional. It feels situational to me. Like if I just have a beer with someone and measure their mutual attraction in a conversation that improves the chances that the wheels aren't gonna fall off the bus for me mid coitus God, I hate the word. Okay, this is yours.

No, no, but wait, if you have a beer or someone the greater the establishment of a mute of the, of a connection with someone, the greater the chances you will enjoy the sexual experience. Exactly. Exactly. And is that not the definition of It's not because Demi sexuality. The stuff that I've been reading anyway. It's about the feeling sexually attracted to someone, not your ability to act on it.

I something I here and this is what I like after you said when I or someone, I forget who said that you might be this and your response was like, no, I see people and I, you know, think sexy thoughts or think about like what I realized later part of it is there there's a difference between fantasies and what actually happened. A lot of people have fantasies. There are plenty of fantasies that I don't want to actual come true or even porn. I look at that, I'm like, that would be hot.

I don't actually want to do that when actually have sex with someone. Like so many things that are hypothetical or fancy or even I talk about on the show of like loving or being really into, I don't actually want that. It's like, I wonder how much is things you fantasize about, but that doesn't mean you actually want them to happen. Yeah. Great question. I wonder that too. I also think, mhm I don't want to identify as that because I don't want it to be true.

I don't want to be a Demi sexual, even if Demi sexuality does encompass what's true for me, these are things about myself that I want to change that? I wish I could change that. I wish I could figure out that I talk to my therapist all the time about, Like, do I just need to practice more? Do I just need to, like find the people I feel safer with and like, bang them more so that I get better at that.

Like it is not an identified an identity that I want to claim if it's true, I want it to be different. So I don't want to call myself that that's wow what that says, that there's something they're not necessarily that that label issue, but there's something very big and important there. I don't, I don't feel that I don't want to change the way I have sex or what I do.

Like I would like people to not judge random hookups because those can be, I think so many people in our community judging like I want to change how other people perceive it or I want to like, but I don't think about, I don't want this myself like this, like how I handle sexual tracks. I don't, I wish I was less anxious about hookups before they happened.

I wish, you know, there's lots of things, but I don't have like what you're describing feels like a more inner, deep seated, like dislike of something about yourself that that means it's big and important and um yeah, also I'm okay, I do this in therapy too. I'm debating whether like, I am like intentionally moving on to something else because I want to avoid talking about what we were just talking about or if it's actually related and okay to bring it anyway, blah, blah, blah.

There's the added component that makes me shy away from the demo sexual label that there is a window of knowing someone if I know someone to, well I absolutely will not be sexually attracted to them whatsoever. Which seems like the opposite of demo sexuality, right? Like, like it seems like go ahead. What? No, no, keep going great. You'll be, you'll be happy to hear. I have no desire to funk you, Kyle. And it's because we're very, very, very good. No, you know, I know that about you.

Yeah. And there are other situations too that are, are similarly uh nonstarters for me, like fraternity brothers, I have a hard time with that. Even the hot ones being gay doesn't mean you have to be attracted to every dude. I understand that. I think this is a similar thing. Just being the sexual label does not mean people you have an emotional attraction to you will want now want to have sex with them. Okay. Okay. Oh, wow.

Okay. Uh, there was a non reciprocated period of time when I would have been into you and kind of was so like, that's, I don't, it's not, it's not because I wouldn't, I can't find, I don't find you attractive. Like that's that's not what that is. Okay. I want to talk about that now, but we're talking about important shift. You're talking about mike what she wants me. Oh my God, wow, wow. What? Oh my God, Kyle now I'm bright Red, This is awesome. I just, I just felt it happened.

It's like I just did a bunch of poppers that read like from New Orleans. No, I don't want to me okay. So like early, early, early on, like when we were first getting to know each other and we were hanging out with some regularity. I found you attractive and, and like then that's right about the same time that I met my ex husband and like the ship changed and we became better friends and you got friend zoned and like that's how it happened. Mike. Don't make me say I wanted to suck you.

That's like, that's awful. But if you say no, then I'll feel sad. You don't have to say anymore. Why is that a weird thing to talk about with your friends? I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I get it. It makes sense with what I know about you of like kinds of things you like and, and we've talked about enough that I know like we both are like, this is platonic and will not happen And sorry listeners. But um, maybe you aged out you and Davey Wavey man. Um, okay, back to you.

But like what about me or other people like you're attractive? You're not gonna always include my, me and my in the list of people you are attracted to. Um, like, but we got like we, we became friends and got to know each other. Is that during the process when you like, but, and then we got to know each other more and clearly that stopped.

But like is that during the course of the process where, like, you felt that there was like, there was a there was a connection there that involved us becoming friends, like, okay, but okay, but the all of this new found evidence that everyone gets to enjoy uh is just that I think, I think from what I'm maybe I'm just wrong and understanding Demi sexuality, that that's that's sort of the opposite of of what they experience in, that if the connection is too strong,

if it hasn't become sexual already, it's never going to, like, there's a proximity that a person reaches emotionally from a trust and vulnerability perspective that then becomes very much not sexual and and won't be.

And that's the that's confusing to me because, like, homosexuality, the implication is that if you're going to be into someone, the emotional bond strengthens that, like, there's all this focus on, like, long term relationships or like six months to a year for some demo sexual before they feel sexually attracted to somebody and then it's their super into it or whatever. This this feels like the opposite of that.

Is that the case with everyone that a stronger emotional connection makes you not want. You are less likely to have sex with him. I don't know. I mean, is that true for everyone for you as you, you know, your ex husband, you got married and hopefully established a stronger emotional connection. Did you feel less sexually attracted by that? Okay, It's all about like, the sex has to start before the window closes, because once the window is closed, it's closed.

Yeah. My point is just, it is not that after emotional connection you don't feel sexual attraction. It is that it works only with certain number of people. And I don't think any identity requires it to be with every person. They're certain it's not that doesn't happen with everyone, it's doesn't happen again. We're doing we're doing so much of the ship that you should not do with, like, I would never with anyone else, but you try to explain to them.

I I think the biggest thing that you said is like, I don't want this label to be true. Yeah. And there's a there's a whole bunch of, like, reasons for that. We've we've talked about the fact that I feel defective when I when I look around at my, like, gay male friends who just hook up and funk and it's amazing and they have so much fun and like, that that's not how my sexuality works very much feels like, like a problem deficiency. A I don't like I don't like it.

And then if it were that, like, I never enjoyed anonymous hook up, that's the other thing. It's not that like, it's not my batting average is zero when it comes to the casual random hookup, it's it's I have had a fantastic time with a random stranger that I just met before. So if I don't know it's black and white thinking and for that, that sucks. But like if it, if it were, if it were truly never, ever, ever did that work for me, then I might have a better time accepting it.

It would be Yeah, I agree. You definitely be easier if there were some of these like, oh, definitively never. I mean also that's why the term great sexual is like something that we talk about because asexuality does not mean you never have any sexual feelings or hookups that are good. I don't know like you're describing, you have had hookups with random people that have been good. It sounds like that is the rare case, not the norm.

And what you said is when you had those, you wanted to continue those hookups but okay, I don't need that judgy face. But okay, okay, again, so much of the documentation that I've read talks about sexual desire and mine has always felt like a deficiency of ability and because I very much have desired both the like the strong, like physical feeling of, of wanting to be sexy time with someone. But then also I want to act on that and have it be successful. It's, it's the execution and ability.

That is where the wheels fall off the bus for me. And it's always, there are themes to when I will be successful and when I won't be none of those themes are are black and white, like absolutes, but I because it feels possible and that's how I want to be, I wanna, I wanna figure it out and fix it or whatever um and I and something about something about taking that label on and using it for myself, feels like giving up on something that I'm not done struggling against.

Why do you want to struggle against it and change this thing? Like what? Like it sounds like you want to change an aspect of who knows whether it's because because this is how you are or there's an issue or whatever. Why why do you want to struggle against it and make like random hookups happen for example, because because when it works, it's awesome.

Who doesn't like Gisin with a stranger like me most of the time, but but sometimes I love it and it would be great if I could have that happen more often. What are the what are the things that you said? There's like a constellation of things that that can make it good. What are some of some of those things? Um knowing the person beyond just like random s text messages, a comfortable environment, especially one in which I am able to lay down or they can whatever.

Someone who likes to make out a lot of dudes, especially in an anonymous situation, don't want to use their mouth, uh there's a vibe like a if I feel like there's a reciprocation of like, I'm not just being used for that person to get off, but like that we are invested in each other's pleasure um, and responsive to each other's feedback that tends to be more successful.

Um, I'm answering the question Yeah, you are some of the things you're describing feel like a connection with a person, but who am I to judge? Well, literally I'm doing that. So you said you you don't want to take on this label? What would it mean if this label were true? Okay, I hold on, I'm serious. I'm gonna say it, but I'm just like, I can't believe that I'm gonna say it. Something else that will make it successful is if I have paid for it, I don't know. That's something to unpack for sure.

But like, yeah, uh, I don't, I don't know, especially since that tends to, because the transactional nature of that sort of precludes an actual genuine connection or something. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know why I'm so embarrassed when I'm so pro, like sex work is fine and moral and I have, I have used the services of sex workers in the past. Like that's I saying that out loud is hard anyway.

What happens is it kind of akin to like those more anonymous hookups that you fantasize about, like, you don't have to, like, you don't talk like they come over, it's just the sex, it's, I think, okay, so breaking it down.

I think it's because I trust because I'm paying this person, they're sort of contractually obligated to listen to me and I feel more comfortable in my ability to draw boundaries with them, say what I like and what I don't and it doesn't matter if it's compatible with what they want or not, their job is to just make that happen within reason, right? And, and uh, it's not a negotiation. It's, I don't, I don't require trust because it's transactional. I don't know. Yeah, did that even make sense?

It did. And I'm just like, I'm thinking like, what? Like Kyle, what why did you do this? I did. You know this was gonna happen. I knew something would, and I didn't know we we hear that here, we'd be um, some of the, I'm so sweaty, okay, some people love it.

Like what I didn't hear is I get to give them money so that they can come and rail me real hard and leave and I never have to talk to them again you said so that they will listen to me that we can communicate boundaries that we, I can describe things I'm into and not like I don't know which, so the narrative that comes out of that becomes I don't trust my ability to say no, not like that, please do it like this instead.

And um that maybe I just need to practice being sexually assertive and that I'm not Demi sexual and perfectly alot sexual. I just have a bunch of trauma responses to sex and I need to practice. I think about on our episode about sides dr joe court.

Um he talked when we were talking about sides, one of the questions that I had for him was about is there some people have issues with anal because they were grown up in a religion that gives them these kinds of issues or they associated with gay and gay is bad and you know, you know, is that is there something that needs unpacking there that you might miss with side? And he said like yes, we need to talk about some of these issues. Also does it matter why they are aside? I don't know.

I know I ki I am pushing this in a way that I will stop now. It makes sense that maybe it makes, it seems. Yeah. I mean, I mean maybe like in a broader sense in life you being able to say here's what I want and like I think I'm really bad at that. You know this about me? I do great. Please continue. Yeah. So no, it makes sense that that comes up here. Have you considered being a therapist boy? No, I mean yes, yes, yes and I haven't. I don't. Yeah. Sounds like a lot of school and work.

Yeah. I'm trying to think of. I don't know how to wrap this up so we can move forward. I okay. How about this? Did you want to suck me? There are definitely issues to unpack that are unrelated to this label about trust and whatever. Also, some of it reminds me of what you've described about being gay. You hooked up with a dude and we're like, oh no, I'm not into dudes because this one scenario, oh, I could fund a vagina and that meant I'm straight.

Like you use some evidence to rally against yourself on why it's true. Yeah. So those are just some of the things, why don't we end it with, how do you feel about yourself in this label? After talking through it? I I yeah, I don't know right? I don't know. There's there's enough that I just don't feel fits that I'm not ready to claim the label, but it does seem, I don't know. I don't know what I am Kyle, that's okay, that's okay.

Yeah. Um and if if it is that, I mean is that actually not like joke about her push? I mean that's okay if like you right now. No, I don't feel it fits, I don't know. Was it useful looking up some of these things like a little bit Yeah. Yeah, I definitely didn't understand some of it and had some misconceptions that have been cleared up? So Yeah, that's good. Yeah, we can leave it there if you want. Do you want to talk about Demi janitor. Yeah, I do. Do you have a long episode? Yeah. It is.

Is that okay? I guess so do we. I mean the other option is like make the Demi Lovato part a the Patreon segment. Let's do that. Let's do that. Let's do that. We're gonna talk about Demi Lovato in the patreon segment, Demi gender. Gender. I will like you did tell you a little bit about it. It's c unlike Demi sexual. I think Demi for Demi gender if I understand correctly, which I probably don't.

Which is good that you're going to explain here in just a little bit is like somewhere between in in the middle C this is the ship that I worry about for you. I'm going back to you but like Demi technically means between and like but that's not what. But then we use in a different way and you're I don't know. Great, okay, we don't have to go back to you. All right. The Mayo clinic, the Mayo clinic says Children um on fries, most Children categorize their own gender by age three.

However, because gender stereotypes are reinforced some Children learn to behave in ways that bring them the most reward despite their authentic gender identity. I think this is why uh all of these labels feel new. A lot of people were socially rewarded to man or woman to fall into the binary. Um And I think it's helpful that there are a lot of new labels away were describing things to help better represent people's experience.

I say that because Demi Demi gender may also be called at least the masculine version Demi guy, Demi man, Demi boys, Demi dude. Like all of those Demi dude Demi boy is the most common one that that you would see. Um the uh the trans Youth Equality Foundation describes it as a person who feels their gender identity partially identifies with a masculine identity but is not wholly binary. Many identify this way regardless of their assigned gender falls under the trans umbrella.

Um um For like one of the downsides. So this was uh Started the word best they can trace back started in 2010. So like there's like a more recent kind of word and definition we've had. It was first defined on the asexuality visibility and education network which is interesting to me because it is they had apparently they have a gender form. It is not a in the asexuality spectrum, it is not like part of that.

So I just think it was like they happen to have forums and discussions about other labels and I identify and intersectionality is a is a is a thing they talk about a lot, yep. So it started there um there was a there's a blog called gender queer I. D. That apparently is is popular that also included a definition. Flags and symbols were created on tumblr and deviant art.

And anytime something is started or spread through tumblr that is like a like attack that then right when people can really levy against people like tumbler tumbler generation all these like you know young kids see something on tumblr that just word alone I think is like what they cling onto of why things aren't real which is dead. No more porn. You know what? Probably. Oh yeah this is back when they had porn. Yeah I miss those days. I never used tumbler. I don't get tumbler.

I never like I mean you don't need to know I guess I don't I just I guess I don't care.

Um and I think even though the words start around 2010, like Cosmo wrote an article in 2021 I think it is um Only recently like people are more widely talking about it like it's just like one weird example but just like the article Cosmo article about it feels to me like okay that's a it's not tumbler, it's not a V. N. It's a more like a bigger outlet that is talking about this definition and what it is that says something to me of what level it's reached google trends look up for it.

No no I tried I was actually like trying to find them. I should have, I tried to find like percentage of people that that used this and I then found this whole like identity survey that then was I started reading this way bigger thing that I had to stop because it was like not about this specifically. So no, I don't I don't know. Um Um I first heard about it in 2017. I distinctly remember because I was a I was relieving for training for my new job and I saw this definition.

I was like, Oh this might be me. Like, I've never heard this. And I was like, oh, that's like, that's interesting. And I even remember I asked you for the field recorder when I went on this training because I was like, oh, I want to talk about this and record like I'm just learning about this and this could make like something interesting. And then I stopped looking at it because I started I saw the Demi sexual thought it was that.

And then like got confused on the different demis part of why I wanted to do this episode at all. And when I also have realized just about like even like gender identity or or or appearance that I've like explored when I'm really depressed, I don't I can't do or think about anything else. Like the moment. Um I started taking medication a while ago that actually worked for me and unfortunately stop a while ago when I felt better in depression wasn't the main thing I was dealing with.

That's when I started to like look at gender and and think about some of these labels. So I mean I guess I'll talk about me. Um I like, I think a lot about this stuff, especially recently, I think about this all the time. And um it's it's interesting because I there's a conflation of symptoms or not a conclusion, like, this combination of symptoms that I wonder if I just want an explanation for.

And this would like if if questioning gender and gender identity, like it explains depression, anxiety, body dysmorphia, like so many things that I feel, uh this is gonna sound weird, but sometimes I wish I had a brain tumor that they could be like, oh, that's the problem. I don't care if they could remove it or not, just to be like, that's why. Yeah, that's what's going on with you for sure. That would be real nice. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes I fear that. Okay. Sorry.

Same. Like everything everything I was saying at the top of the episode about like, I wish that there were a magic bullet that could just fix it for sure. Please continue. Yeah. So I I guess I don't, I wrote down a bunch of ship, but I don't know like, what, what um what do you want, what do you want to talk about? I don't know.

I um there are some days where I'm like, oh, yeah, that label totally fits maybe a, like more like, maybe there's even more going on than just a partial connection to masculinity. Maybe there's none sometimes. I think like, that's all stupid and I don't know, I'm thinking about it. I just like, need to get over it. And I'm like, just a regular guy that like thinks about over thinks about some of these things. So it's um it's really weird to figure out what's actually true.

I something that I thought was really interesting that for anyone, like when I think of someone questioning their gender, I think of the people that are like, I knew I was trapped a boy trapped in a girl's body from when I was a kid. And that to me describes gender dysphoria.

And I found this article that requirement also another, it doesn't have to happen at age three doesn't have and you don't have to have dysphoria to like, there's there's a lot of new things that, that used to be kind of the phrase that we said or that explained to trans and is not the case. Uh there was this article called gender. Dysphoria isn't what you think. And it's by CAssie Labelle. It was on medium in 2020 and from a distance. Dysphoria can look like anxiety, depression, body dysmorphia.

Dysmorphia or 100 other things, cassie put a list on twitter that was like, you know, the fish and water doesn't know it's in water or whatever. Like you don't recognize some of the things if you just constantly experience them and put a list of here things that I didn't know where gender dysphoria caveat that that cast included. They were like, it's possible some of these things assist people feel so and not a comprehensive list, not what everyone feels like.

But just for that, I didn't look at their products. I don't know customs. Um, this is not a comprehensive list. This is just for them when they kind of figured this out. Things that they didn't realize whenever I watched a sitcom or listen to a stand up set, the men do X women do why I innately cited and identified with a woman.

I have said before to you, this was surprising whenever there's a study, I always identify with what the women like the women's side and I said that because I thought all gay dudes did that and you were like, no, I don't. And I was like, oh, like that that confused me. I just like my name as well as all nicknames. I had a deep unwavering sense that I was going to die young. I felt name I had growing up. I didn't really like it because like all Kyle's punch walls or whatever.

I didn't know I didn't know that until an adult, but I don't know, I, I don't know a little bit like, I think Kyle's boring. So like, I don't know, I don't, I never liked my name. Um, well that's what I worry about this being a checklist of like, but, but I do, but this is what I'm also doing of like yes or no, um had a deep unwavering sense that I was going to die young and felt disconnected to my body. I felt mysterious aches and pains, like a heart attack.

Being in a male only or male dominated space made me feel on edge. There was always a sense of being an interloper or trying to speak in phrases in a language that I didn't understand in order to gain acceptance.

I absolutely feel like that a lot of this to one of the struggles is I have then attributed some of these things to being gay and they are like gay men feel uncomfortable a lot of times in male spaces because you're like trying to be like a straight dude, but well, okay and you've said before that you don't necessarily feel that level of disconnection in a space of gay men, that it's, it's specifically straight men that you have this sort of tension about.

Yeah. And growing up people's dads that always like, oh, there was one that was like, I don't know if I wrote down the moment if you're hanging out in a group and the last woman leaves and now you're around dudes, like, like there's just like, oh shit moment, like, yeah, there's a big code switch that happens for everybody to write, like it suddenly gets way due to your Yeah. Um, none of my deepest sexual fantasies involve me being me and they definitely didn't involve me being male.

Um That one I don't know is not totally me but on occasion I think we've even talked about again like a lot of things I then like think about early on was like, did you imagine like having sex as a woman? Yeah, like that's a fun fantasy. Yeah. Yeah. I don't like being tall. I told myself I liked being tall because society privileges tall Nous and I definitely like being able to see the stage concerts.

I like being able to reach the top of cabinets but I uh I would way rather be smaller and cuter. I have often said that I wish I was shorter which everyone like is confused by um I've sometimes wondered for you if that's because of of being conspicuous or if it's something more than that like Yeah and and it that's a good point. But also I want to be in a relationship where I get to be like the cute little one that someone cuddles and I will not have that experience.

You don't know that their biggest dudes out there, that is very true. six ft four and up dudes hit me up on the mobile. Um That's from my brother, my brother, me Griffin Mcelroy, what's up um I don't know, it's moved to the Netherlands. Apparently they're super as tall republicans and lots of drugs. Yeah. I don't know, like very white, very white.

I don't know, I so as I've been exploring like different kinds of clothing like skirts, there is something that I'm like, I, the first time I walked outside in the skirt, I was like, oh, I love this also, it's very breezy and feels good. So like that there's so many things that I question myself on. It's like, oh, that could be gender you for you Oh, or that could be feeling the cool breeze on your legs. Like I shaved my legs not too long ago and I very much like that.

It's grown back since monkeypox. Then I shaved my legs and cut myself several times and then I was like, is this where I cut myself or is this a monkey pox? So that's was very poor timing. But yeah, so there's, there's a lot of things that I sometimes will gather evidence of why my gender is not completely male. And other times where I'm like, this is, I just have like some men experience these things, some game and experience these things and dudes can wear skirts and they can still be dudes.

So I am very much, Yeah, I don't know, It has been interesting to me to watch you play with gender. It's been super awesome.

I've been like legit proud of you for like saying it and doing it, you got your, your nails and, and you've done some makeup things and skirts and shoes and I've also been super interested in the fact that you continue to have, like, the rugged symbol of masculinity on your face all the time, and when you, when you have shaved your beard off, it has been for like something for the stupid for the podcast, like getting into drag or whatever, and then you grow back, like, like, that's a,

that's a solid part of your identity. It's just interesting to me that it's such, it's such a like, quintessential masculine trait that you seem very much identify are uncomfortable without etcetera and trying to connect those dots and make it make sense. It has been difficult and it doesn't have to make sense, right?

It's not, it's not my body or life, but like, I thought about it, you wanted it to be your body briefly when you first met me, I can't, Oh my God, and I can't, it's really just beard envy Kyle. I mean, I've been jealous of people that don't have any hair. Oh, well, I exact same things I think about two when I completely like body hair.

I was always very uncomfortable about with it when I as a kid when I learned I would have to shave or um when I remember uncle joked about like, this, put hair on your chest. I was like, gross. I do not want that to happen when I started getting body hair, I was extremely uncomfortable and hated it. And I even had got my mom to help me like trim my underarm hair because I thought it was like too long, gross I have when I have shaved it nowadays as an adult.

One of the reasons I don't like it is because I don't like the way my body looks and having a beard and having body hair. Some people are into that and that at least I have that. At least if I have a gross body, at least there's something on it that someone likes people like beards and are into them. So, so I've gotten positive rewards from it and I think it makes me look better in in my world where I don't like the way I look, it at least helps.

It's Yeah, no, but it's exactly the questions I ask myself and think through and don't and then and go back and forth on like going to the deeply uncomfortable subject of body dysmorphia, what would your perfect body look like? Like what, what, what, what standard are you measuring yourself against and falling short of? Oh, like like hot Jack dudes. Okay. That's uh a stereotypical masculine ideal that you're pointing at and also one that men are trained to on.

That's I mean that's I think that's why like at the beginning so much of this is like what I I in I've seen people's transition photos where they are like a jacked dude and turn and turn turn into like then the update is like skinny hot girl, like body dysmorphia. Like what is the outlet to make that feel better?

It is getting positive rewards, like whatever that Mayo clinic was like, Children learn to behave in ways that bring them the most rewards and it's hard to separate out what is something that I've been conditioned to think is the right thing or want and, and what gender is what I've been conditioned to think I am and what is real. And as someone who, if, if you text me and say like my parents were like, can I call you on the phone?

I need like at least 30 minutes to like take in this and process and be like ready for it. I take such a long time to like accept and process information that there is never going to be an identity that I find I'm just like you done, I take so long to think and reflect and, and like be ready.

That um, that's why it's hard to unpack like how much of this is just like, I need to reflect on what has been trained into me or what is genuine part of it is that, is that a meaningful distinction to write? Like whether something that's trained into you is genuine, right? It's your, no matter where it came from. If it's true, it's true, I get what you're saying. Like it's still happening.

I think that I was trained to be straight and I changed my voice and preferences so at the time it was true that I liked the music by fuel. I mean, can you reframe it as like the things that you have control over and the things that you don't write because whether it was trained into you or it's your word, quote unquote genuine.

There are some of those things that you can change now and fix and there's some of those things that you maybe can't and I think that's a more valuable thing to look at my talking about me now anyway. But like what, what, what what can you change and what can't you, regardless of how it happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like what I am doing right now, my path is I think I attach a lot to wanting to have, wanting to, for there to be to know, have an answer.

Uh, and a word that describes things and um and there's an ambiguous state that I feel that I'm in and is uncomfortable and I'm trying to think of it as I am exploring this. I am questioning and that should be enjoyable and that there are parts of it that have been that are fun and I want to keep doing that and I don't have to know and have an answer. I can just continue to pursue things that I like and try things and not do things I don't like.

Um, so it's I'm getting very hung up on this label that um, you know, I think everyone kind of wants, it's nice to feel a label that explains things, but we also don't need well and maybe maybe you gotta like maybe a label or a box is comfortable, like you're hidden from the elements in there, you've got something to lean on and it's an identity and maybe not being in a box is super uncomfortable. It's windy up here.

It creates like an existential agoraphobia to not have your set of things you can rely on to help define you. Maybe uncomfortable is the right place to be. Maybe maybe you're doing it and just kind of sucks. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree what I've learned that being in to things like come to mind of like being in the box of when I when I went to get my monkey pox vaccination, they asked for gender pronouns because they're part of, you know, knowledgeable and no other ship.

And I said he him anytime. I'm like, that doesn't happen that much. It's happened a couple times since I've like changed my pronouns on my profile and talk about it here of like when I and then I instinctively say he him and any time I do that I it is, I am like I feel bad.

I don't I like not just like why wasn't I assertive, but also like I don't like that pure categorization also when we both do this, when we talk about our podcast often we want to make clear who we are and who we are, and we will say we are two gay cis men. And the descriptor of CIS feels I've realized feels so dismissive of all the like I'm thinking about and working through all this stuff all the time.

And even when I say it or when you said it, it just feels very dismissive of where I'm at and that sucks. And the other part of it is like, I don't I don't feel good about claiming the label trans, so, I don't know what that means. I just know that I feel it feels very dismissive when I just say I'm CIS or when I just say he him.

So I know I don't like that, even though those are easy boxes that I could put myself in and that that feels comfortable or you know, but it doesn't boxes don't feel good to me. Uh you're not delivering the point, but I will I can stop saying that I can try to I yeah, I don't know, maybe I can stop. I don't know. Let's try. I think what I what I will say what I feel most confident saying.

It's so weird, like give people advice on their sexual orientation all the time and like there's so much that I try to think about my advice to people on sexual orientation. Try to think about me giving it to myself when I'm exploring this. It is okay, that's another fantasy is that masturbation. I am questioning right now. What I feel weird about what I've told other people is that puts you in the LGBT umbrella.

Like that is a that is a Q. There's queer and questioning that puts you in that category. Even if later you realize it's not true. So I don't anyway, that the parallels are uncomfortable to me, but like that that's where I'm at right now. That's good. I think it's healthy. Mhm. Um How do you feel? I think one of its I think its opposite for us that you walked in wanting to or being afraid afraid sounds too. I don't know like you walked out there. You know what? That's why you never liked me.

I you know, I can't let this go. Okay. Um uh You walked in. It seems like not wanting this label. I walked in being afraid that you would I mean, some of the things that was like, no, everyone does this being afraid that it would like justify that. I'm just someone overthinking this. I walked in being afraid of the opposite. Like Yeah, that makes sense.

I mean, I think the thought had crossed my mind, you're an anxious mess and that maybe you could like, you know, talk yourself into this as a as a as a receptacle into which to pour that anxiety. God, that sounded almost so hot. Um But I don't I don't actually I don't actually think that's that's true. We don't think that's true.

I don't I think that there's legit something going on with your gender identity and it's not a phase and it's not your pretending and it's not just you making shut up because you're anxious. Like I I think that there's legit, there's there's a legit some process that's happening here. I think maybe where we differ is I don't know that you need to figure it out. Um And that you're kind of already doing it. You feel like you're not at the destination yet and that troubles you.

And I mean, yeah, that's uh if we're if we're opposite, it's in that like, I'm reluctant to go to a destination that seems to maybe fit some stuff and you are reluctant to stay where you're at in this undefined space. Um Yeah, I mean, like saying you don't need to figure it out is like, I don't I don't want to live here.

I would like I said like, it's okay to question and me and I can, you know, embrace and enjoy parts of it, but it would be nice to have a better sense of self and hopefully that will come along. You know, maybe a label will come along with that, but I I very much want to better understand this may be your Kyla sexual. Like, okay. I have legit that's weird, but I have legit thought I'm only attracted to Kyle's I've legit thought about we all create these labels.

That kind of God, she ruined the name. Kylie. Now, I have thought what if I just make up a name and call myself that and whatever. Because everyone's experience of gender is different even within all of these different labels that we have. No, everyone is a little bit different. What if I I made it my own name and I'm this this gender and it's just whatever. All the things I do feel are that gender, would that help? So, I don't know. I don't know. I think it's funny.

I think we're also both landing in a I don't know like you when I see how you felt you were like, I don't know. So both of these feel like things. Some there's there's something there that is important and very personal and I don't know what it means. And um and I think, I don't know. I want to keep exploring. Stay tuned. Maybe we'll do Demi part two in a year and we'll have all the answers.

Yes. Um everything will just make sense because this episode turned along week you can listen to us discussing Demi Lovato and yes, we will talk about their gender and also some other, you know, I don't like to use the word crazy, but she's like, yeah, she's sweet. But it's like her new album, check out the song Eat Me so good. So go to Patreon if you want to listen to the full conversation about Demi Lovato, Demi Lovato dot com slash that's not the website. I'm a wreck.

Patreon dot com slash podcast. Where we put up our bonus segments every week. So, check out the full thing. Okay, let's take a break for some tests. All right. Where Mike. Okay, are you ready? I'm ready. Are we back? We're back. We're back. I'm tired. Let's just end it. All right. I should not make jokes. All right. Okay. We're at podcast out internet. Check us out. We're going to but first you dirty fuckers. Listen up. Right now listen The Podcast Awards.

If you nominated us like a good person that didn't want me to quit the show, you may or may not have been selected as a judge. Check your email and check your spam folder to see if you were selected as a judge because the voting is happening now and the votes have to be in by September the 13th or I will quit the show. Um and we know we have connections at NASA NASA and say my brain is done skis okay. And next, next few motherfucker's our 300th episode.

Our live stream for the 3/100 episode is gonna be sunday september the 18th, 2022 at two p.m. Pacific time. There will be a event on our facebook page that will let you get to the stream and uh we need queues so so that we can a them. Um we're doing a unique spin on it this time. We are going to try to guess if it's from you all or from my mom or did Derek find it off the internet? Um the email address is on our instagram or you can go to Gaia podcast plus 300 at gmail dot com.

That's the plus symbol. So Gaish podcast plus symbol +300 at gmail dot com. Yeah, please send in questions. We need them, we want them, we like them. Um yeah and then we are also doing a merch competition. So uh if you're a designer, if you can make cute things, if you kind of know how to use paint, send us some ideas for merch. Um they are due September 11 because we are going to announce the winner on our 300 livestream. So by Sunday September 11, did I make up that? That was a Sunday.

I didn't write that down anyway by september 11th. Uh some of the specs max of 200 megabytes. A PNG file type, the D. P. I should be at least 100 and 50 no higher than 300. The S. R. G. B color profile. The max print area for a t shirt will be 12 inches by 16 inches. Don't let that scare you, send in your designs. Uh no matter what um you don't have to be a professional to do this. So yeah, send us some ideas. We'd love to see them. It's time for the local gay bar review.

Yeah. Okay, so I went to in Grenoble France and I went to the Love People pub, which it's really funny to me when you're in a foreign country and the gay bar has an english name. The love People pub. Grenoble is right at the foot of the alps, which that surprised me because it was 100 and five degrees. It was the goddamn central european heatwave. That time I was like, it's supposed to be like the mountains, why is it so goddamn hot?

It's at the bottom of the alps, it's not in the mountains, it's next to the mountains. Anyway, the love People pub. It was a tiny little place. I went on a Tuesday and it was just always a Tuesday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a Tuesday or a Wednesday. Is that true? My lying to? You know, I'm lying to you. It was a thursday. Anyway. Yeah. Uh when? And it was, it was a cute little spot.

It was just like a bar and a few stools and then like a, like a, like an outdoor seating area, like french people do like most of their stuff just kind of spills out into the street, but I got the very distinct sense that I did not belong there. This is a problematic observation and for that I wholly apologize.

And uh over half of the clientele of which there were only like nine appeared to me to be visibly trans. And um I think I think I accidentally went to a trans bar which was fine, had a cocktail um and talked to a couple of people. Um but I just, I didn't, I felt like that space wasn't for me and I didn't know if it was because I didn't belong or because I didn't speak french or both. Probably both. Um but it was cute and I enjoyed myself and I give it three dildos.

Oh um I mean part of the thing about like you can't judge if someone is trans or not based on their appearance is you you no one can say for sure if anyone belongs there and you trust as long as you don't make a ruckus and be shitty that like if you're there it's fine. So yeah. Yeah I was also, I was also like there were only like there's only like one or two other like masc presenting people there.

So anyway this is what I mean, this is what our podcast is why this this is a heavy thing for the end of the episode. Like I do the same thing where I look at people and in my head I'm like oh they present or appear trans and it's like one of those things that's weird to talk about because the as is reiterated correctly, you don't know that for sure. And also I think it's okay to have, what I hope we do is say to people.

It's okay to have these thoughts and observations it so people are just like people are racist. People see race and have these instinctual reactions and lots of people do. And also what you do next with that is what's very important. So I don't know. It's weird talking about those things, but I also think useful. I also wonder if I should have said gender nonconforming. Is that more like pc way to say?

I anyway, what you're saying is your initial reaction was that's that's what you thought was happening. So I don't know. Yeah, I get I get that some of the discomfort was I'm for sure repping a gender binary and like that is that's not what I'm seeing in this location. Anyway, it was fun. Ready to wait. No, first. Our website is podcast dot com. Um We are on Youtube instagram social media twitter. Um and at podcast, our hotline, you can send text messages or leave us voicemails is 5855. Gaish.

That's 5855429474. Standard rates, apply our emails. Gaish podcast at gmail dot com. Remember if you want to send a question, do gay podcast the plus sign 300 at gmail dot com. And our physical mailing addresses. Post office box 1988 to Seattle Washington 98109. I will uh since derek has been here, he's been doing a lot with our instagram posting there every week. Uh asking about people's gaze and straightest and posting some of the answers. So that's been great. So check out instagram.

There's, there's more stuff going on there uh, than you've seen in the past. So yeah, I'll go hold me closer, Tony Danza. The new Britney song. I of course had to listen to it the day it came out. Is that what it's called? No, no, no, no that's, that's Phoebe on friends making a joke and the song is called Hold Me about Tiny Dancer by Elton john Yes. The song is a remake of Elton john's song Tiny Dancer. It is called Hold Me Closer. There's Britney Spears vocals. There's, I don't into my status.

I don't love it. Like I don't need a reboot of songs like all the Tv shows are reboots. I don't need songs to be rebooted again which seems to be like what Elton john is doing is Sir Elton on the track. Like new stuff for samples. Good question. I watched a video now we're back to Gaius. I watched honest vocal coaches take on the new Britney Spears and Elton john song and she had a hard time hearing.

She was like there's so much production and ship on top of this that it's hard to tell what's even Brittany and what's Elton john, There are parts that are like, what's that? She seemed, she said that this was new stuff that Elton had recorded and she pointed out some good ship that Britney did and there was a leak track that then I went to this, there was a leak track that I went and listened to and that got a lot better reviews because you actually let both of them sing a little bit more.

Anyway, that's My gay. I also wore a Britney Spears t shirt in honor of that which no one can see here it is. Um And My Straightest is the fact that I both don't love the song and also any pop music. I don't love it first. Like people like the catchy pop, like all the divas that gays are supposed to love. It still takes me a few times to really get into songs.

Um even ones that I end up loving even Britney Spears songs so I don't have the same like all the new this is out and I'm obsessed musical. Well the straightest thing about me this week actually I think you were here for our some of our D and D. Friends just bought a house and just all of the like talking about house stuff, right? Like doing the here like the ship with the hot water heater and the valve replacement. Like in the gardening and like like I need to buy a lawnmower?

I just happy straight couples and participating in their happy straight couple lives. Are they? Is that a heteronormative thing that they're doing by at least this step of buying a house step. Yes. Yeah, maybe I use that word. Right? Yeah, I hope so. And then the gayest thing about me this week was realizing 30 seconds before a work call that I was wearing my manscaped shirt that said your balls will thank you and having to do a quick change.

So I have sometimes like put that on and then like gone outside and be like, oh that's this is a weird thing to be like what I'm presenting to the universe. Suddenly image conscious and and having having a shirt that talked about testicles. Um, okay, listeners gaze the straightest. So uh I posted on facebook and Kyle posted on spaces. So we're gonna do one of each on on facebook though. One of them is uh From rob Straightest had a sex dream about MEREDITH Gray from Grey's Anatomy.

Who hasn't gayest talked my husband into a rewatch of the expanse and cannot stop talking about how much of a fucking goddess Shora Aghdashloo is. I would listen to her read the fucking phone book. She's magic. I don't know who this is. I know you don't, I know you don't know what am I on spaces we have over 1000 people in our spaces groups. So you know and it's a new social media app. Sometimes things are wild in there. So join if you want to.

Um I posted their straight one of those ones that I like the best straightest, I'm a teacher. So preparing my classroom for a bunch of fifth graders if you're a teacher right now, God, that's I just, especially one that's any kind of queer, I bet it's hard and please do it for the rest of us. You were taking a bullet that I couldn't um gayest making a video montage of my trip to Fire island with my husband said to Beyonce's alien superstar to introduce myself to my new students.

Oh my God, they're gonna know, they might, they might have some questions and you know what republicans, That's okay. It's okay if I have questions. Oh God yeah, that's it. This is engaged. Uh, Kyle, thank you to you for labeling me catch there now.

Um no, thanks, thanks for talking through and like we said, we're doing it that you shouldn't do for other people, but you are always so like, okay and just accepting and and down to, you know, talk through things and receive the accusations levied against you. Also thank you to following super gap bridges, john Crowley, Stephen, josh Copeland, Jonathan Montana's for us now. Patrick, an anonymous James barrow, steve Douglas explosive lasagna.

Just Jamie kevin Henderson O'Ryan and jerome york, that is it from the studios, I'm mike, johnson, I'm Kyle gets until next week, be butch be fabulous bu right, okay um if it makes you feel better better in some of the life shows, Griffin always like has tabs that um won't load and everyone's like, take a screenshot. So you and Griffin Mcelroy are the same. We are the same. Yeah, I'll take that. I would take that griffin because he's adorable. Okay.