Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I am your host, Matt Lansedel.
and joining me today is Michael Diorio and Reno Johnston. Today we are talking about the sexuality spectrum, and we're going to be exploring questions like what do you align with around the sexuality spectrum? How have your sexual preferences changed over the years?
And how do you go about getting your sexual needs met? So we're talking about sex today, folks. What we want you to get out of today's episode, basically a greater awareness of the sexuality spectrum and where you might identify on the spectrum.
We believe it is very important to understand the spectrum because you will likely share sexual experiences with people that are on different places on the spectrum than you and knowing what people's desires and needs are on the sexuality spectrum can enrich your own sex life.
by fostering things like trust and safety and greater intimacy by understanding that people are going to maybe desire different things than you, but that doesn't mean that you can't have enriching experiences with these people. If you are new here, please subscribe to the channel on YouTube. If you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please subscribe and leave us a review, which helps us get into the ears of the people who need us. Okay, so what is the sexuality spectrum?
Well, I've broken it down into two things. This is a very challenging thing to try and conceptualize. I broke it down into a sexuality spectrum and a sex spectrum. So we're going to be talking about two different spectrums. I look at the sexuality spectrum as a spectrum of different ways that people define and express their sexuality that influences the type of sex that they engage in. Okay? So...
As gay men, that's one of the things that we could identify on the sexuality spectrum. The type of sex that we would engage in would be with gay men, right? But we can even take it a step further and look at... The types of sex that we enjoy having could be like casual sex, anonymous sex, passionate sex, like that sort of thing. We're not going to be talking about like anal and vaginal and oral and that sort of stuff in this episode, unfortunately, folks.
But we are going to unpack more. And then I look at the sex spectrum as the spectrum of different ways people define and express the type of sex that they enjoy having. Ultimately, your sexuality will influence the type of sex that you have, right? What influences where we might be on the spectrum on either of these two things? So sexuality or sex. The first one is genetics, right? Genetics plays a part in all of us. Epigenetics, these types of considerations are important.
our sexual and social conditioning so how we view sex through our culture through our family maybe we were shamed for for having certain desires and that changed us and put us in a different direction from our authenticity Maybe we have fears and anxieties around sex because of our social conditioning. Maybe we learn to shame other people for their sexual preferences. So that keeps us stuck in not being able to move towards our authenticity. So different factors related to sexual.
and social conditioning can play into this as well. Our sexual needs and desires, right? So when we do start moving on the path of authenticity and we start connecting to what we actually. truly desire and need, that's going to be a big factor of this. I'm a firm believer that our sexuality is influenced greatly by our needs and desires and what we want. How we choose to express our sexuality.
is a big a big part of this because how we choose to express our sexuality will be what we get back right and that can also influence our sexual evolution. If we express certain things from our sexuality, we might attract somebody who teaches us something new that we might enjoy. So that can influence where we land on the spectrum as well. So the influence of other people.
Our sexual expression comes from our needs and desires and how we go about getting those needs met. Sexual frequency, definitely. So how much sex we enjoy having. Some people are very sexual, some people aren't as sexual, so that can influence where we are on the spectrum.
who you have sex with so you know sex gender age race all these sorts of things can influence and then the types of sex that we enjoy having i think is really important so i gathered some information i was very ignorant prior to this i didn't even know half of these terms to be completely honest so i will attach a
link in the show notes from a resource called choosingtherapy.com backslash types of sexuality. So that'll be in the show notes if you want to go and do some more research on these because I only chose 11 of the 25. I'm not going to sit here and teach all of them. That's just too much.
much but feel free to go and educate yourself and i'm just going to do a very brief overview i tried my best to line them in the spectrum because basically these are like asexuality to allosexuality asexuality being a non-sexual being allosexuality being somebody who has sexual attraction. So I kind of tried to base it on that. Starting with asexuality, this would be somebody who's not sexual at all. They don't experience sexual attraction. Graysexuality is somebody who is not asexual.
but they're not as sexual as most folks. They're somewhere in between. So maybe they go through periods of feeling sexual and then they're not, they go more dormant. So it could look like that. Demisexuality is requiring an emotional connection for sexual arousal. So sapiosexuality is requiring an intellectual connection for sexual arousal. So with these two, you're very much governed based off of the head and the heart.
Those are your sexual organs, or at least the entrance point to arousing your other sexual organs. Then you have andro and gynsexual, which would be people who, androsexuality is people who are attracted to masculinity. and gynosexuality would be people who are attracted to femininity so that could even be as gay men you could be attracted to other gay men who exhibit more feminine traits right so it doesn't just have to be for
you know, cisgendered straight males that are attracted to females. And then you have allotroposexuality, which is attraction to trans non-binary people. And this is a relatively new term used to replace scoliosexual. It refers to individuals whose primary attraction is to transgender or non-binary individual. The term does not refer to the fetishing, fetishization or sexualization or objectification of trans people by cisgendered individuals. That's important to note.
So this would be their primary attraction. bisexuality both male and female and then sexually fluid is somebody who their sexuality is constantly changing over time so they might have different experiences so these people would probably tend to be more sexually open and you know their sexuality can change over time Then you have pansexuality or omnisexuality, which is all people, attracted to all people regardless of sex or gender.
And then allosexuality refers to those who experience sexual attraction in general. So I think the three of us are sexual creatures, so the three of us would be allosexuals. And then the sex spectrum, I just kind of came up with a few. I would be curious to know, like you guys might have more to add to this. But again, I tried to line them on the spectrum as much as I could. So on one side of the spectrum, you might have like more anonymous sex.
casual hookup type sex. And then moving along, it could look like committed or relationship sex, passionate sex. Emotionally engaged sex, intellectually stimulated sex, lovemaking, tantric sex, which would be more energetic, explorations of sex. So that's my way of conceptualizing it. But let's start with our first question.
I'm curious for you, Reno, where do you align on the sexuality spectrum? What do you align with? It sounds like it's been an evolution. I'd say where I currently find myself, probably like... passionate, lovemaking. Tantric was introduced in more recent years, actually, because I was... Well, I was somewhat aware of it in my late 20s, but I connected to a community of, I guess what we call here in North America specifically, sacred intimates.
And I started learning all of these different ways to engage sexually that were rooted in tantric principles. I was like, oh, this is interesting, okay. And funny enough, intuitively, I found myself engaged. In some of those activities, unknowingly, like just, it was like my intuition just kind of picked up on some of these things. And I was like, oh, that's called tantra. I didn't know that. Which in a lot of ways would be conscious.
sexuality and sexual exploration I guess in a way when you were listing off the different types of sexuality I noticed there were some that seem to apply to me like sometimes i find myself in gray sexual around but i'm gonna say like not so much i'm a pretty turned on sensual person. But, you know, demisexual, sapiosexual, androgyne, sexually fluid, like, these all...
resonated with me for sure. And one of the things I noticed is that maybe in earlier years, when I was just discovering my sexuality... I probably would have been less, not only less aware of these distinctions, but also they wouldn't have mattered as much, you know? I would have just been, like, humping a pillow or, like, you know, jerking off with a friend or something like that, or just, like, dry-humping somebody and being dry-humped by someone, right?
didn't matter it's just like oh this thing like it feels good you know i mean it obviously it did matter like you know there were people who were into me and people i was into and that sort of thing but it's interesting to consider the the sort of match that took place over a period of time that was like, oh, okay, I'm noticing there are some preferences here, you know, like emotional connection is really important to me suddenly, or like...
intellectuals really turn me on. If you fuck my mind, my body will follow. That's interesting. And then even having a preference, I think, for... masculinity at one point, and then kind of doing my own work around having, well, actually, to be honest, doing my work in general around masculinity and femininity, both within myself and then out in the world as it's expressed.
that was also healing because it kind of opened me up to relating differently to masculinity and femininity within myself, within the bedroom. And as it's expressed through my sexual partners, right? So... I would say that's sort of my answer to that question at this point. And again, this is all very fresh for me. So I'm like, hmm, what else could I say? I'm sure more will come up later. So when I say...
the most memorable sexual experience you've ever had was the first thing that comes to mind. Yeah, okay. It was with my ex-partner. This is a good question, actually, because I don't know if this is why you asked it. But it seems like a sort of gateway to... what stands out or what resonates most. And then in that, you can kind of find the pieces that made it memorable. This is a good question. Well done. Yeah, because it was...
It was really connected and it was really intentional. And I've told this story on the podcast before, but what made it so significant was that I was breaking through a personal sexual barrier. Up until that point, I had been quite... closed off to penetration. And so it was amazing to curate an experience that gradually over, you know, minutes and hours, like opened my mind and my body. and then resulted in this ecstatic, amazing, obviously memorable pleasure and experience.
That stands out to me. And just the intentionality and being with someone who I felt safe with and someone who loved me. And then the whole setting, you know, from the candles to the music to the energy and the warmth of the room. the way it unfolded. There was so much there. The bubble bath prior to, and the lap dance prior to that. But it was a whole thing. I was like, I'm into this. Yeah, good question. Sign me up.
I took away like warmth, safety, connection, just this feeling of like being held. Yeah, major. Definitely. And then, yeah, like even as I'm listening you say those words, I can feel my body start to like, like I can feel the resonance in my body. I can feel my body starts to like come alive and open, you know?
So that says something. Thank you. I love that. Michael, what about you? This is a tough one, guys. I mean, thank you, Matt, for giving me something. I was taking notes while you were writing. I feel like I was a little student while the teacher was teaching. This is a tough one for me. I'm feeling like a resistance to want to answer because for me, it's so highly dependent.
And I guess the word fluid comes to mind or very inconsistent. So there's a part of me that wants to resist putting a label on anything just because I don't want you or any audience listener to be like, oh, Michael's like this. Just put me in a box and that's it. It really does depend. Some things are pretty consistent throughout, but a lot of it depends on the environment of where I am, the person who I'm with.
the circumstances, my mood, what my needs are. And I can, in typical me fashion, adapt to all kinds of different things. So I will totally be able to have a great time with a random stranger in a dark room. For sure. Easy peasy. I could also love and enjoy getting to know somebody and taking it slow and then having sexual intimacy be part of that down the road, like letting it build and simmer slowly. And I love that. And that's amazing too.
I can do it all from, I'm not like, you know, from casual to more romantic Demi, like I can swing on both sides of it. The one thing that I would say is consistent is what we, I think you called it Andrew being attracted to more masculine features. Right. Yeah. That is pretty consistent throughout. No matter where I am or what the situation is, I tend to be more attracted to it.
those typically stereotypically masculine type of features. So I don't know. I mean, I fall on the spectrum a lot of different places, I guess. I guess fluidity makes the most sense for me. And it really depends, like, you know, right now. What is it? It's Friday today? It's Friday night. I'm in Milan and I have a date tonight with some guy that I met on Grindr.
Because of his profile, which was like wanting to get to know somebody and, you know, he's just had this really great profile, super sexy eye. We're going on a date after this. So my mind right now is in like, we're going to get to know each other. We're going to have a great time. We're going to go to this party together. Sex is not off the table.
It's not on the table either. It's kind of like, I guess, see how we vibe. And so my mood right now is like, I want to get to know somebody. I want to have a good time. I want to have a bit of an adventure. So, yeah, it's kind of more, I don't know about Demi, but what Reno said about fucking my mind is also very true for me. Like, yeah, like if anyone could appeal to my mind, then yeah, he definitely has an advantage of getting in my booty too. I love that.
It's very Gemini. Yeah, it's hard to pin down. And I'm like, I don't really want to be pinned down either. Well, not in that way. Yeah. So I think you'd be you'd be definitely be more on the fluid spectrum. Yeah. Okay, wait, do the thing, Matt. Do the thing. Do the thing you just did. What is your most, when I say your most memorable sexual experience, what comes to mind?
Well, the one that comes to mind is my first, well, the very first time I had sex just because it was the first and it was special and kind of magical and my heart was beating. So that's the first one that comes to mind, but it's just because it was the first. I don't know. But I would say one that often comes to mind is my very first time I discovered cruising by accident. I was walking home from a bar.
And I took a shortcut through Queen's Park and Toronto to get back to my house. I had just moved to Toronto. And Queen's Park, little did I know, is a big cruising hotspot.
So little old me walking down the path at like three o'clock in the morning and there was a super hot guy that walked by and he kind of looked at me and I looked at him and then he kind of looked back and we both did the look back. Luckily, I mean, I was a little bit drunk at the time, so I had a bit more courage. I don't know if I would have done this.
had I been sober. And he kind of, you know, does a little head nod to come over here, like into the, under a tree, kind of in the wooded area. And I was like, the fuck is happening right now? But I did it. And lo and behold, there are like all these other pockets of guys have all kinds of sex. And I'm like, what is happening right now? And things happened. And that was the first time I had discovered what it like, what cruising even is.
And that was, I think the reason it comes to mind for me and the reason I often think about it is the emotional impression it had on my body. My heart was racing. I was terrified and turned on all at the same time. And all these emotions at once were just a lot. And so it left a mark, right? It left a double mark.
on me and ever since then i've been like really turned on by by cruising i still enjoy it i still think it's great and a lot of adrenaline and a lot of fun yeah i love that if i were navigating sex and sexuality, I would definitely come to you. I feel like you're very knowledgeable. Probably because of the versatility, right? Yeah.
But at the same time, it already feels like I want to also say that is not the only thing that turns me on. I will and have often, when I jerk off, when I masturbate, think of the kind of sex I had with boyfriends.
And just that beautiful level of intimacy and connection, and that will still get me off. I'll go back to those memories when I'm dragging it off, and that'll make me cum. Even if I'm doing something else, watching something else, when it's time to cum, I will go back to that memory of... a certain boyfriend I had and how he felt inside me or whatever. As you were saying what you just said, Matt, I had this thought too. It's like...
Michael's the sex guy, you're the relating guy, and I'm the romance guy, I feel like. If I were to come to each of us for a thing, it'd be like, yeah, you for relating, Michael for sex, and me for romance, I think. Cool. We make a good team. We do. But at the same time, though, I have to say, like, one thing I don't know if we talked about or if it was on there, Matt, is like the kink spectrum. Like, I wouldn't consider myself kinky really at all, besides maybe some cruising stuff that I enjoy.
whatever. But that's a whole spectrum on its own. Totally. Maybe more vanilla versus more geek. I would say far more on the vanilla side. Ditto. Yeah, I'm definitely vanilla. I would say I gravitate towards the obviously Demi and Sapio for sure. Those are the two things for me. So intellectual conversing, intellectual conversation that leads to emotional expression and vulnerability. is my bread and butter. I love that. I think, for me, it's just all about safety.
It's about safety. It's about trust. It's about rapport. It's about knowing that this person is a good person. They're going to like handle my body with care. So I like more slow down ways of moving towards sex because I definitely would not want to put myself in a situation. Yeah.
somebody takes advantage of my body or they don't respect this like beautiful gift that I'm offering up. You know what I mean? Like I view my body as like a temple and I view sex as like sacred. So yeah, I like to slow things down and I like to, which means my sexual frequency.
lower for sure. Do I want it that way? Probably not. But how I know I'm Demi is that my sexual self is quite dormant until I meet somebody. And once I start getting to know them and I start connecting with them, it's like... my sexual self just explodes and I become actually very hypersexual in relationships, which is a beautiful feeling. I love being, I love being very sexual.
But again, I want to make sure that I'm doing it with people that feel safe and good. And that doesn't mean I have to have... a love or a relationship to do this it just means that there's there's time that it takes in order for my nervous system my body to feel like safe to want to connect and how it feels safe is through emotional and intellectual connection
And I also want to know the person's a good person and that they're like intelligent and that I'm turning my body over to somebody that's like can match me. You know, like I think that's a that's a big thing for me. So. And then I was thinking, I'm like, yes, I'm very, I'm definitely androsexual. I am really solely attracted to masculinity. I'm not really attracted to femininity in others, but I'm attracted to femininity in myself.
My own femininity is what I like. I'm aroused when I'm going to think of like being aroused or attracted to myself, which is something I'm like coming into now more like later in my life is like, you know, like feeling sexy and like feeling aroused by like just connecting with my own.
sexual energy that energy is more feminine and i feel the energy of the masculine wanting to come and like take my feminine energy like it's just it's a really interesting so i think that's where this tantric stuff comes into play like i love playing with tantric tantric energy and tantric sexuality i think is very It's profound. I've had amazing sex with past partners in exploring this realm, the sexual area. So I think that kind of sums it up.
For me. I wouldn't say I'm sexually fluid, but my sexuality has changed over time, which we're going to be talking about in the next question. But okay. Oh, wait. What was your most memorable sexual experience? Let's not let him off the hook now. Yeah.
It might not be my most memorable, but the first thing that came to my mind was just having, I was dating a guy who was very avoidant prior and had very, very... attachment trauma sex which can be really hot which is like you're not giving me what i need but you show up during sex and it feels so good so it's like bread crumbing and then when you finally get the bread crumbs it feels good so that sex can be good but it's like very it's painful on the heart but it's good
on the body and the arousal but then I met a guy who was quite anxious after that and I dated him for about 10 months and him and I had the most amazing sex so it's just I always think about that sex whenever I go back to it was very connected he kind of knew my body and all my spots he was highly highly attuned like that's the thing about anxiously attached people is they're very attuned
to your needs and they're, you know, they leave self to go to others. So there's, they're usually sexual pleasers. So he like knew all my buttons and he was very attuned to me. So that was good because sometimes.
you know some guys don't know how to deal with certain things or they don't jerk you the right way or and it's like oh my god and it's like you feel like you have to take them through a whole tutorial of like how to pleasure you which you know it happens in relationships but then you have the type of sex
that the person just gets you. And like, it's like empaths, they can just feel where you feel pleasure and they move to that part of your body. And I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. So that allows me to like surrender, let go. I don't have to worry about. controlling my own orgasm or like leading them towards towards that so um so yeah that really stands out as as memorable for me yeah thanks for sharing yeah all right
So if you're enjoying these discussions, you can come and have these discussions with us on the last Thursday of every month in the Gay Men's Brotherhood. We have sharing circles and we have connection circles where we're going to have these conversations. So our sharing circles are larger format.
and one person sharing at a time, we're listening, we're holding space for somebody to share. If this feels too intimidating for you, you can come to our connection circles, which is just like this. The three of us hold space for each other to share and reveal ourselves and our experiences. That's what we create space for you to do the same thing if you wish to come. And those happen on the second Thursday of the month.
If you want to learn more, you can go to gaymansbrotherhood.com. Check out our event section to RSVP. If you don't have Facebook, you can get on our email list and we'll email you the Zoom link for the sharing circles. And I'd be remiss if I didn't turn it on to the audience. So I want you to pause and think, what is your most memorable sexual experience? And reflect on that. What made that experience memorable for you?
And that might point you in the direction of your needs and your desires and what you're actually really desiring from your sexuality or your sex. All right. Reno, how have your sexual preferences changed over the years? Well, I mean, as I mentioned earlier, I went from humping pillows to humping men. No. Well, I'll say this. I go back in time to when I was first introduced to...
myself as a sexual being. And what I can remember is just this, what I would describe now is sort of discovering my turn on, right? It's like, oh, wow, okay, cool. That's there. and then kind of becoming curious about that and sort of exploring the breadth and depth of it. And I think what that looked like was just friends who were also curious and somewhat aware.
And there's, like, touching and, you know, like, poking and sort of looking at things. And, you know, when you're that young, you kind of don't know, like, what's going on. Oh, yours has, like, this flap and, like, mine doesn't. Like, that sort of thing. of thing and then as time went on and again i think it's important to mention that
It's probably similar for heterosexual people, but not entirely, because a lot of the sex that was happening for me and the sexuality that was happening for me was kind of hidden, right? It was on the down low, because God forbid I get caught. And so there was MSN groups back then. And maybe I can remember going like skinny dipping with this.
guy in the neighborhood and us kind of swimming between each other's legs underwater playfully and that escalating into something sexual, right? Which is really interesting and hot too. So, you know, it would just happen kind of sporadically and spontaneously and unexpectedly. And as time went on, I guess they started to discover... what I was interested in and what I wasn't and I think one of the most significant moments for me as far as like
when I would say my sexuality really jumped off. And I've shared this on here, but when I was 16 and I don't say I lost my virginity, I say I gained my sexual prowess in a threesome. And just that whole experience was amazing because I feel like I really came into my sexual confidence. And I think what I noticed is that, as I mentioned earlier, Intellect, emotionality, intentionality, context, connection, safety, as you mentioned, Matt, like all of these things, intimacy, all became...
increasingly important to me. And it's not to say that I can't still go to a bathhouse and observe or... be watched and witnessed in my pleasure. I'm maybe inclined to do a bit of touching, but not anything extensive, because I will say this is something I'm realizing as I'm saying it out loud, is that...
I'm pretty exclusive when it comes to my body. And that's just a preference of mine. So I was talking to my friend about this last night, Funny F, my heterosexual friend. I was saying, like, I haven't bottomed a lot. And I generally don't unless we're in relationship. It's just not something that I do. And so I think that that's been interesting to notice as well. There's kind of this like monogamist in me or this like, you know, you talked about committed relationship. I think in order to.
enter me in that way like there needs to be some of that so I'd say that's present and then I did write something down I just remembered which is that I've become more attracted to feminine energy over the years as I've become more connected to my own masculinity, which has been really interesting. So I had a sexual partner a while ago, and actually there were two of them. And I remember one of them saying to me like,
oh, you're so, like, you're so manly, like, you're so masculine. And he was just, like, really into my beard and my chest hair. And I remember because he was so... I guess, in his feminine, it made it so easy for me to be my masculine. So I can remember like picking him up and like wrapping his legs around me and like laying him out on the bed, you know, and it was just like really, really hot. And I don't express that side.
me a lot in the bedroom. So I'm even discovering new things about myself as we speak, you know, but fundamentally, I'm a romantic, you know, like, even at the bathhouse, probably. i mean like i'm a romantic i mean the last thing i'll say is i met a guy at fairy camp last weekend and i noticed that like
As we were parting ways on like the last day, I said to him, you know, like, I'm a lover and a romantic and whatever. And I could see like... I could see him crack a smile, and I could almost feel the resonance, like, radiating off of him when I said that, and I felt so seen, like... He nodded, too, because he got it, you know? And this is someone who I just met, but he was like, I could tell he knew, like, yeah, you are a lover and a romantic. That's very much me at this point in my journey.
That's funny about even at the bathhouse. I could picture that. Totally. I'd be like, where's the cat? Get the candles. Let's warm this bitch up. Where's the incense? Like put on some chate, you know? I love that. Yeah.
You're totally a romantic. I just adore that about you. Thank you. Michael, what about you, Boo? I think for me, I'll keep it simple. I mean, they've evolved in a lot of ways, but I think the most... prevalent and that the way that it's changed is in my 20s, I'm going to say, especially when I did move to Toronto, sex was easy for me to find just because it was, I didn't need the emotional connection clearly.
And it was very prevalent all over the city. I lived by myself. There was the advent of Grindr and all the things. So it was easy for me to find. And I didn't really know, I think, how to connect emotionally with men. that time. So I didn't. And I think I was just having sex to have sex because I could and because it felt good. And it was very simple. How that has changed though, over the years is...
I have had a greater appreciation for, as time has gone on, the kind of romantic sex, that emotional intimacy that comes with it. That could come with it. It doesn't have to, but it could come with it. And I've come to learn to appreciate that more and more with every...
partner I've had, with every relationship I've had, there's something very special about that. Whereas in the past, even if I did have a partner, I would say our sex was still very not necessarily connected, even though I had a boyfriend. It just lacked that depth, I think, emotionally speaking. So as I've gotten older,
I think at the time, now that I'm thinking about it, it might've been a fear of intimacy, but I just didn't know. I wouldn't know to call it that at the time. I was unaware of my fear of intimacy. I didn't know how to be vulnerable. I didn't want to be vulnerable. Those were all the things. So I was just having sex and it was feeling good.
do it, move on to the next one, do it, move on to the next one, do it, move on to the next one. Even if it wasn't just a one-time thing, it was still very transactional in... the mechanics of it. It's like, let's just get each other off and go do something else. So that has changed for sure. And now not only do I know how to do that and do I appreciate the different kind of sex that is.
I find it beautiful. And I found actually, after I broke up with my last partner about a year ago now, or just under a year ago, I took about like six months just to like... not doing anything just kind of just chill and i it was the winter in the spring i was like okay let's just mourn this and
Let the dust settle. And then by the time I got to summer, I remember saying, okay, this is it. It's the summer. I was single, Michael. We're going to go out and have all the sex and all the fun, and it's just going to be this great time. And lo and behold, did I not meet the first guy I met on Grindr. We had this beautiful summer romance, which I was not expecting that. But I have just come to learn and appreciate that I really enjoy companionship and connection.
And that comfort thing, Matt, you were talking about that level of comfort with somebody. I mean, I really appreciate that and enjoy it. And sure, I could still, and I did still have fun at Anlin's here and there in the summer and I went to the bathhouse once in a while.
I still appreciated that level of connection and companionship that came with it, even though we weren't actually like an official couple or anything. It's interesting that I craved that. Like I thought I would be craving like, oh yeah, I'm single now. Let's go out and have a little fun. And at the end of the day, my body still.
wanted that closeness ultimately and the sex with the closeness. So that's interesting. I think as I'm getting older, not that I can't do that. I still can't. Maybe I've just reached my limit of casual.
That's not true. I'm here in Italy and I've been having some casual sex. I can still do it. Yeah, I get that, though. I get that as time goes on, maybe it kind of tapers out somewhat, you know? And there's a... preference for one more than the other ish yeah it depends on this scenario though right like so i say that then i mean i'm thinking about the time i was at anlin's and i was just out in those woods at helen's for hours having a gay old time and same thing here i was out last weekend and
dancing and i i could still do it so let's let's mean like this whole episode about the spectrum like i can really it does depend on and i'm hesitant to put me in any kind of box because i can do it all it just really depends on how i'm feeling them all
That is one thing that has changed for sure in my 20s. I did not know how to connect. I was unwilling to be vulnerable. I didn't even know what intimacy, real intimacy was. And now that I do, I like it because I can play in both ends. I can play in the depths. and the intimacy. And also I can just still have the NSA and that's okay. Yeah. Interesting. I love that. I love how the spectrum, it's like showing you that you can move on the spectrum, right? And that's the beauty of it.
We don't have to pigeonhole ourselves and we don't have to grab onto things. And I think, you know, there is even when I said off the top about fear and anxiety, a lot of people carry sexual fear and anxiety. So they pigeonhole themselves because they're afraid of what they might discover or they might feel not good enough.
for these sorts of things and I wonder I always ask myself who would I be without this fear right like what would i actually want to move towards and what would i organically and authentically desire if i didn't have this fear right i think that's true for me too like maybe if i didn't have fears of being hurt or guys taking advantage of my body and these sorts of things would i want to engage more with casual sex.
i don't know i don't know i'm not there and maybe as my evolution continues and i do more trauma healing work and stuff maybe i do meet that old part of me which was very hypersexual and didn't know how to have intimacy and i was dating a guy for eight years and the whole eight years I was dating him I was disgusted by the thought of connecting sex and emotions we just had sex like I just wanted to be like
fucked or fuck you know it was never about that he was very intimate and romantic and wanted to love make and I would always avoid eye contact during sex because I was afraid there was a lot of fear of intimacy there for me and and that was the old me and then I would actually have a lot of casual sex never anonymous sex but I had a lot of casual hookup sex and I was thinking about this I was like only topping at that time and I was attracted to like leaner
more feminine guys so it's interesting now and i did i'm not making the correlation until now and then now i'm attracted to more masculine guys and i'm connecting more with my feminine so it's kind of fascinating how things come full circle like that So I think now I look at my sexuality as it's like, it's changed since going through spiritual processes and lots of therapy and really deeply connecting to myself in emotional ways and finding how to have intimacy with myself.
I now value sex in a completely different way. Like it's a sacred thing for me. So yeah, this whole notion of demisexuality, it kind of came from, I don't know, six years ago. And it was a very tough transition for me. I thought I wasn't sexual. Like I thought my sex drive was just gone. I thought it evaporated because I didn't know how to have intimacy at this time. And I wasn't able to perform in.
casual sex. What the heck is going on? So, but it was like, I look at it in retrospect, like spirit was showing me you need to learn. how to have intimacy because we have this amazing man who we're preparing to bring to you and you're not going to be able to receive him if you don't know how to have this greater capacity for like lovemaking and intimacy and all these things.
So there was almost a couple of years where I was dormant and I wasn't getting erections and I wasn't even aroused to masturbate and all these things. And it was very, very hard for me. I had a lot of shame around this. But again, always in retrospect, you realize that these things, they're part of evolution, so I can move closer towards whatever my destiny or whatever you want to call it.
Yeah, it's, you know, hindsight's always 20-20 in this case. But I would like to get to a place where it's like I'm not connecting with fear when it comes to sex. Like the fear piece has been healed, removed, so I can really attune to my authenticity.
Like, what is it that I desire? Do I desire to do these sorts of things? And I think part of me does in a way, but I still need connection. I reflect on a time when I don't often have sex on first dates. It's very rare that I even have any physical affection, but there's been a few times.
where i have but the dates have been longer and we establish intimacy and you know one of the dates was an eight-hour date and we just like hiked and hung out and whatever and we ended up having sex that night which a lot of demisexuals it's like you would think that they wouldn't do that but it's really just the level of emotional connection that you can establish
Time isn't the only indicator of how you can establish an emotional connection. I think it can be so many different factors. Intensity is one of them, like emotional intensity with somebody can really bring forth the arousal component. Yeah, I would say right now I'm at a pretty interesting place when it comes to my sexuality. I find I really wish that there was more men that had capacity to.
go to some of the places that I want and to take it slower. I yearn for the day that there's like a demisexual app like Grindr. where it's like people want to take it slow and you want to go on dates, but you don't necessarily want a long-term committed relationship. It's like, you know, friends with intimacy is the term that I'm using now, which is like more than friends with benefits, but not a romantic relationship. It's like, I just want to like...
have beautiful intimacy with human beings and explore our bodies and our minds and our hearts together but it doesn't have to be this thing that becomes a long-term relationship necessarily you know what i mean i'm open to it but so Anyway, that's my whole ramble. I love that. Yeah, there's a couple of things in there. One was there's something I heard in there about sexuality as like a vehicle for.
personal and spiritual evolution. And I really think that that is a very special way to, it's just a very powerful way to kind of or a powerful perspective on sexuality and sexual expression you know like yes it's pleasurable and it's fun and also there's like healing and evolution and spirituality and yeah like real depth there too, which is good to know.
yeah i agree and i think sex is shamed so much in our culture and i think one of the ways that it's shamed is religion shames it because it actually is a portal to higher consciousness so we can use sex as a way to expand ourselves and expand our souls. However, And our holes. And our holes, exactly. The key though is the intention of why you're having sex, right? It's like there's so many different types of sex that we can have. Some of them constrict us. Some of them traumatize us.
Some of them, right, it's not that all sex is expansive and sacred and is going to take you to those levels, right? It's about, you know, is this person able to have the type of sex with me where we're going to expand our hearts, our minds and go to those higher levels of consciousness, which is more tangible.
type sex so 100 sex can be a vehicle used to do amazing beautiful things for sure all right if you want to learn about sex do we michael do we have sex stuff in our coaching collection we do under the relationships Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah. So we have stuff. So if you're looking to want to learn more about sex and sexuality, you can check out our coaching collection. So this is our 45 plus premium coaching videos where Michael Callan and I have taught.
workshops, different things like this on all different topics related to relationships, community, body positivity, confidence. So you can check that out at GameAndGoingDevert.com if you want more info about that. All right, going into the last question here, Reno. How do you go about getting your sexual needs met? This is my favorite question out of all of them. I'm really curious to know what you guys have to say about this. Well, my ex...
who I've mentioned on here a number of times, who's my dear friend. We just saw each other yesterday, actually, during his layover in Vancouver. He gifted me this cute little purple and white vibrator and that thing. Oh my goodness, it's magical for me. So, you know, I definitely, definitely use that thing quite a bit. You know, when inspiration strikes. Yeah, there's a lot. My life is rich with self-pleasure, I'll say. And let me make this clear. I'm not, in no way do I feel...
a victim of a circumstance or something like that. I'm consciously choosing to be fairly exclusive when it comes to who I engage sexually with. And so part of that is because I'm very sexual. You know, there's a lot of self-pleasuring until I meet a person who's like the right fit.
Another way that might surprise people, I guess, because it's not like explicitly sexual, but it's more erotic is I have a pole in the living room. And when I'm super turned on, I know that there's like a lot of sexual energy brewing in me. I like put on my shorts, my knee pads, you know, my tank or like my sweatpants or whatever. And I put on some music and I just go and like hoe it up in the living room.
And there's a lot of heavy breathing and touching and, you know, swinging on the pole and, you know, upside down shit. And it's just, it's a blast. And that really turns me on. It's a very sexual thing for me and it's a lot of fun. So, you know, that's another way. Is it your poll or was it? Yeah. That's amazing. I love that. No, so what happened was someone who I know moved in and brought it with her and then gifted it to me.
so i was like oh my god i'm so excited i love this thing yeah it's so much fun and it's like the highlight of my parties whenever i have parties everyone's like oh my gosh this is so fun and then I would say every once in a while, if you're lucky, you will find me on Grindr. Sometimes I just get an itch and I want to scratch it. And so I'm like, who's out there? And I might like have someone over.
and we'll have a bit of fun. And true to form, it's generally, like, romantic in nature. It's always so funny, too. I gotta say this, because, like, it cracks me up. So these guys will come over. And I think that they're expecting one thing and then they come into my space and they feel the energy of it.
And it's a whole vibe. And I see it like without fail. They're like surprised. Because again, it's like warm and it's immaculate in some ways. And there's music and there's smells and there's sound. You know, sometimes I have my little like Zen fountain going or something like that. But it's so interesting to see how they respond to that when they come into the room. And I almost feel like it's sort of this wow experience.
experience for them. And I love that. I love that. It's really fun. And then, yeah, so I'll have some like romantic sex, you know, and it might be just a one-off. But again, there's always that element of romance. So I'd say that's...
That's kind of how I go about getting my sexual needs met, those three at this point. The last thing I'll say is when I was listening to you speak earlier, Matt, something that became very clear to me, I was tuning into my body and I think there's this like deep, not longing. It's not a longing. I don't even know that I would give it the word desire, but there's like a sort of readiness, a ripening for like committed partnership.
and the kind of sex that happens in that context. I feel ready to give my body, open my body, make my body available to one particular person. over an extended period of time. And that's really exciting to me. And she's just ripening right now. She's getting nice and juicy. So when he shows up, watch out. Watch out. Yeah. You cracked me up, Reno. I love you. What about you, Michael? I mean, how do you go about getting your sexual needs met? I mean, it sounds very simple. I just ask for it.
I mean, well, I guess the first thing is to figure out what it is I want exactly, right? That step one is, okay, what exactly am I looking for? Do I just want to get drilled and filled today? Or do I want to cuddle and like not even necessarily even have to have sex, but like just cuddle and just be close to somebody without that.
expectation or obligation of it turning into anything. Here, they call that, I've seen a lot on apps, soft sex, which is, you know, some people might call it like side stuff, maybe in North America, but here they call it soft sex, which is basically just cuddling. you know, sex isn't really part of it necessarily. So I kind of like, you know, and sometimes that is what I'm looking for. Just, you know, I don't really want to have to deal with
all the things that come with actual penetrative sex or the expectation. That's the thing with me. As soon as there's an expectation obligation, I'm out. Like, no, I can't do it. So it has to be either in the moment, like spontaneous, like, oh, I like you, you like me, let's just do this.
But yeah, if it's like a grinder date and there's all of a sudden some kind of expectation that we're going to do it, I'm just like, no, sorry, I can't do that anymore. That's another way that I guess my sexuality has evolved over the years. I could have done that before, but now I can't.
So yeah, I guess I ask for it, know what I want, and then ask for it. So if I am on Grindr, and I am, and I'm chatting with somebody, just, you know, and they say, this happens all the time, you know, do you want to come over? Let's hook up. I'll be like, actually...
I'm more looking to go out on a date or this is happening while I'm here, right? So the first few weeks I was all excited and had some Grindr fun. And now I'm like, I'm in the city. I want someone to take me out to a bar and show me around. I want someone to do that with me.
and have that and maybe sex is on the table just like tonight and maybe it isn't but just knowing what you want and then not settling for less I think that's that's been a big learning as well so as hot as the guy is if I'm not feeling it I'm just like no if that's all you want you just want me to come over
do it and then leave. I'm just not feeling that today. Or maybe I am. So yeah, know what you want. Because I guess the thing with me and having a wide spectrum is it could be anything. And then just aligning my actions with what the needs are. So you have to have a high level of self-awareness.
Because I could also equally go to a bar or hand lens and not do anything at all if I'm not in the mood for it. And I would never force myself or FOMO myself into like, oh, I should go do that. I just don't do that anymore. But yeah, I'm not into it today. Next. Know what you want and ask for it. It's pretty much my answer to that one.
that's such an important way thing to mention to like FOMO like FOMO is like a structure of the mind it's the mind feeling it's missing out and if you're putting your body through something that it doesn't want to be in like you're putting you're forcing your body to have sex because of FOMO it would be like that can be like
micro traumas to the body because it's like so I love that you're so discerning or like when to put yourself in sexual situations because it feels fully aligned to the whole entirety of who you are yeah I respect that so much
It's a bit of a mess for me because I will tell my friends, okay, I'm not feeling it today. You're just going to go out and I'm going to dance and have a good time. And they all just be like, yeah, we know you. Because the thing is, that will be the truth in that moment. And then somebody will walk by and I'm like, oh, wait, no. Nevermind. Or whatever. And so it is very confusing to be me. And I know that all of my answers today are so inconsistent.
Imagine what it's like being in my own head, guys. I love it, though. I think it's so brilliant because it's like how you do sex is how I do life. So I totally get it. Yeah. I'm like very intuitive, very fluid. very spontaneous, like, you know, one second this, the next that, like, I'm really just responding to the moment. And I hear that in you. And I think that that's so, yeah, beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
Yeah, it's important. I think for me, the trauma healing journey is showing me that because I've been very black and white a lot of my life because of trauma and like finding being very fear based, right? So needing control over things. So you can't be intuitive. You can't let the moment flow.
And I think now that I'm like really coming into my own around, like I'm not governed by as much trauma. I think I'm able to do that. I'm able to be like, okay, what is, what do I want in this moment? I'm like connecting to my needs in a different way. It's just, it's so, I feel like a lot of things are shifting for me. right now so it's really interesting so how do i go about getting my sexual needs met oh this is the bane of my existence i so i've been on tinder
For the longest time, I haven't been on Scruff or Grinder for 10 years. And I was noticing that it's just like crickets on Tinder. Everybody's over on these other apps and everybody's like, well, if you can't beat them, join them, right? So a lot of even the demisexual guys.
they are not on Tinder anymore because no one's responding. It's such a, so I, anyways, I downloaded scruff and grinder and I'm just like, Oh my God, this is just, it's so painful. Honestly, it's so painful. You know, I'm not saying that there's not opportunity to meet people there for sure, but it's like.
It's almost like I'm having to like train people who I am and what I want, like in such an aggressive way, because it's like people just come at you in the way that Grindr is conditioning people to be, which is like, what are you into? Or sending you just unlocking their album. And I'm like, I don't want to see it. picture of your asshole like i really you know it's just a very strange culture i find yeah send it to reno not to me and uh
So anyways, I just find that that's really interesting. And my relationship to masturbation is also very different than most people. I don't masturbate very often, like maybe once a week at most. Once every two weeks is probably more normal for me.
connecting with somebody again it's a completely different world so my sex is very relationally governed i'm a relational creature when it comes to sex so i need that mirror that connection with other people and maybe that's also part of it isn't just being a demi it's maybe
it's being an empath. I feel arousal when I feel other people's arousal to me. When someone's turned on by me, I can feel that and it turns me on. I don't know. It's a very interesting thing. So I feel like my sexuality is not... traditional maybe i'll say i know other people that are like this too because i've i've had a demisexual men's group for two and a half years and these guys are all the same as me so it's i know that it's you know people who are more on the empathic spectrum
tend to have a different thing like that. But the other, so how do I get my needs directly met? I would say I love... picture exchange um when i you know meet guys on instagram or things like that um and like sharing pictures if we find each other attractive like that something about that really turns me on and then i will usually like i can masturbate to that or like videos like well like
Are we talking about like hole pics or pics of them like hiking in the mountains? Or both. Once they've sent the pictures of them hiking in the mountains and I get to know them a bit, I'm hoping to...
yeah okay but i have to have a connection established which is why i don't like grinder because i don't know you from adam why are you sending me photos you know what i mean so i want to establish a connection first and then i'm down for for photos so that's that's a big one for me i love photos i love
taking sexy photos i love receiving them from people it's just like a it's a fetish of mine i could even say and then i would say one of the ways that i get my sexual needs met it always starts with cuddling i love attuning my nervous system
so even if it's like you know like i'm like come over for a cuddle date i always like and i'll use the word cuddle and sex like as a synonym because i'm like come over we'll cuddle and we'll see where it goes but i always like to say because then i can say no i just want to cuddle if i'm not feeling the vibe or it can you know communicate my arousal and i'll be like hey like this cuddling is starting to arouse me like do you want to take it to the next step so then i'm kind of in charge of like
you know, where the situation will go. And maybe that's a bit of a protective thing, but I think for me, it's, I need to know that my nervous system gives me the thumbs up. because my body will not want to do it if my nervous system isn't saying yes to it so I want to give that an opportunity and then when you're cuddling with someone you get a chance to like smell them and like all the things that are important for me to get sexual with somebody I want to make sure they smell good
They got good hygiene, all of those sort of things. In my experience of you, you smell very good too. So it makes sense. It adds up. Yeah, thank you. I have a funny story that you just reminded me of. Speaking of Grindr and all these things, I was a few days ago in Genova, and it was late at night, and this guy wanted to hook up. And I was like, oh, he's actually hot. He's 21.
Italian in the Italian Marines, which I was like, okay. But it was like 1230, like midnight, which is kind of my bedtime for me. And I was like, I don't really want to, but you know, this sounds like a great opportunity. But I wasn't physically ready. So going back to what I just said of knowing what I wanted, I was like, listen, I just went out on a limb here. I was like, would you like to cuddle? And he's like, he doesn't know what that word is.
So when I looked it up, listen to this word, I'm going to say, I'm going to try to pronounce it. The verb for cuddle in Italian, coccolare. Coccolare. Coccolare, which I think is a beautiful word, but it sounds like... So when I told him that, he's like, oh my gosh, even better. So it actually worked out for the best because he came over and we just cuddled. We just talked and cuddled and we kind of fumbled over through Italian and English.
And eventually we did end up having sex, but pedal dates. Yeah. That's what Matt was saying. I love that. And I fully agree. Like that these days is a way more my vibe. And I bet I'm not, I'm not saying sex is off the table. I just, again, don't want to be obliged to doing it. Let's cuddle first and see how it goes. Yeah. Yeah.
I feel like we need to, because this episode just got like so even more juicy at the end. And I'm like, I want to keep going. So I feel like maybe we need to do an episode where we just like share sexcapades or something. I don't know. That's a library. That's a lot. Sexcapades. Yeah. You guys, I love you guys. I love you too. It's nice to learn about you and share and learn about myself.
I didn't prepare anything for my questions. And then like you guys were sharing things and it just stimulated stuff. And I'm like, this is maybe I should do that more. Just let we stimulated you. Yeah. You gave me an intellectual orgasm. I love it. And thank you to our listener and viewer for coming on this journey with us as always. And yeah, just be mindful this podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported.
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