The Body Count Dilemma: Why Gay Men Can’t Win

Welcome to the game and going deeper. Brotherhood that showcases Raw, and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. I'm your host, Michael Diario, and joining me today is Matt Lansdolt. Hey guys. Today we want to talk about a beef that I have with gay culture, which is this fixation on body count.

Where we either glorify the guy with endless notches on the bedpost, or we quietly judge him or slut shame him. And then we do the same thing to the guy who hasn't slept with many people or doesn't have much sexual experience at all. So it feels like gay men are constantly stuck between these two extremes, neither of which are empowering.

On the one side of that extreme is what I call purity culture. We've done episodes on this. It implies that sex, desire, and pleasure are shameful. They're things to be ashamed of. That comes from social conditioning, culture, religion is a big perpetrator of purity culture. And then on the other side, we have performance culture, which implies that your worth and value and desirability as a man, as a gay man, comes from sexual experience.

And that is reinforced in our social conditioning in the media, social media porn, everything that we see around masculinity, status, and desirability. Both of them suck, in my opinion. They're both BS. And they actually disconnect us from what is true, what is real, our genuine, authentic desire. Both of these are actually rooted in shame, not choice. And what they do is they turn this Wonderful thing sex into a measure of worth.

Instead of it being something that is intimate and enjoyable, which it is. So both purity culture and performance culture are about control and conditioning, not empowerment. And so that's what I want to talk about today here. You Matt. It's it's a beef I have. So forgive me if I get spicy about it, but I think it's it's really important that we have this conversation. So I think the first thing I want to start off with is looking at like what are let's let's name them, what are some of the

stories people tell or what we kind of hear about body count, the the beliefs that we hold. So there's either the people that have a high body count and then the people that have a low, and I'm using air quotes because what do those numbers even mean?

So Matt, I'll hand it over to you. What are your thoughts? To be honest, I didn't even know this term. Oh okay like until maybe like three weeks ago when somebody I can't remember where I heard it, but I was like, body count, what does that mean? It sounds like murder or something like that. Yeah. But yes, I didn't realize that. So yeah, I like s I think it's a it's a for me what I do is I have actually a list in my phone of all the guys that I've ever been intimate with.

And I do it not out of a way to be like you know, show it off or anything'cause I don't tell anybody. I don't even tell anybody the number that I have. But for me it's like I want to have a recollection of these experiences, right? And a lot of them were in my twenties. And I had to really dig'cause I was either intoxicated or something. So for me, yeah, the term doesn't really um it doesn't really sit for me, I guess. I I can understand how people would use it as a currency to worth.

Right, and tell all the people that they've had sex with and and things like that. And then I also understand the other side of it, right? And I would say I probably uh I sit somewhere in the middle because I I am a little t exhausted of our culture being so fixated on sex and the compulsivity of sex in our culture and the lack of capacity to move into other domains and I've I've expressed that since day one on this podcast, so that's probably my biggest beef. But

Yeah, I don't know. It's not something that comes across like even in my coaching counseling, like it's not something that comes across my my desk. Really at all. So it's this is kinda my first time talking about it. Interesting. Well cherry your bean first and then it'll stimulate some juices for me.

Sure, sure. Well well the beef is just sad. It's like we can't win. As I said, it becomes it's either this thing that you're shamed for having too much of or shamed for not having enough of. And it's like, well, what the like what gives? Why why can't I just be me and enjoy what I enjoy without getting shamed at all?

And that's that's what I'm saying. We're kinda stuck between these two dichotomies that don't serve us. So some of the things that I hear out on the street with respect to body count are, you know, if it's low, again, th that's such a loaded term that doesn't mean anything. If it's, you know, what what somebody considered load then You know, you might get branded as oh, he's uptight or repressed or prudish or like uh like they kind of look down on that.

And then yet if it's high, if there's a lot, if you have a high body count, again, whatever that means, then it's like slut shaming and This person's empty and he's damaged and he's he's addicted and he has no standards or he's dirty. Yeah. So those are the two ends and then like neither of these things are necessarily true and has nothing to do with numbers. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, it kinda just makes me think like w it's not really anybody's business. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like I guess there is certain context where it might become somebody's business where it's like, you know, if

uh, I'm getting involved with somebody sexually for for example, and they have a high body count and I wanna make sure that they're taking care of their sexual health, right? Like those sorts of things are Are important because and and maybe not even just sexual health, but like colds and flus and these sorts of things because, you know, people that are hooking up a lot are carriers of

Folds and flus, in my opinion. And and when I was in hookup culture, I was always sick. I always had some sort of bug in my throat or something, right? But at the end of the day, I don't think it's anybody's business. Like go on, live your life and if you wanna have a lot of sex, have a lot of sex if it feels good for you.

And if you're somebody that wants to be on the far other side of the spectrum and wait till you're married or whatever these sorts of things might be, maybe you've never had gay sex before, it's like that's okay too, you know?

And that's just it. It it's it's to me, both of these things, purity culture and performance culture, though they sound very different and they are, they're actually part of the same control system. And shame is at the core of that if you really wanted to like get technical about it. But

It's about control. It's about trying to control behavior by it's it's all about judgment. Like this judgment that comes from absolutely nothing. And they both reinforce shame. They both come from shame and they both reinforce shame. Yeah. And it disconnects us from our authenticity, from our bodies, from what we truly want. Like I love the way you added that, like.

if that feels good for you. That that's that's ultimately it is if you subtract the purity culture and performance culture from your sex life and intimate intimacy, then you're just left with, okay, well, what do I want? Regardless of what people might think, or regardless of what social conditioning has taught me. Um that is where the true I think empowerment is.

Yeah, exactly. Uh I'm curious, let's explore like why somebody would shame someone from the other side. So who are the people that are shaming the people that are having a lot of sex, do you think?

And why are they doing it? Yeah, I think a lot of it that I've seen comes from religious background. So I mean I grew up Catholic, so I know no sex remarried and certainly no sex with the same sex, that's for sure. So a lot of it comes from a bit like purity culture. We did have episode on purity culture myself and John Carl Lewis a while back and we talked about that where where this comes from. So I think that's that's a bit of it is social conditioning and like, okay, sex is

uh shouldn't you shouldn't have pleasure. Sex is not for pleasure. Pl sex is only for um, you know. Reproduction. Reproduction. Yeah. Just gay men. Yeah, girl, that's not working. My uterus is not We're trying and it just it won't work. It don't take.

So I think that's that's a big piece of it. Uh but then the other side of it is I think maybe people who are maybe secretly jealous and maybe they they want to have that freedom and they want to have that empowerment and they want to experience these things but maybe they can't or they don't let themselves.

Uh or or or they've been taught that it's a sin and they're gonna go to hell. So they don't, and then they see other folks doing it without a care in the effing world, and they secretly want it and so they shame it.

Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say the same thing. It's a projection of shame. So we carry these ideologies that gay sex is disgusting or wrong. And often those ideologies don't sit at the surface, they sit in the subconscious. So when we see someone else expressing those desires and getting those needs met, And we want to have that and we wanna get those needs met, but we have so much shame that's blocking us from

from accessing that, right? Yeah. That can definitely be a barrier. So yeah, projection of shame. Shame is just oh it's crazy. Ever in every conversation it always comes back to that for us as gay men. Shame is just such a beast

Yeah. Um let's do the other side. So people who judge people for not like being prudish and not not having enough sex or whatever that sounds like, what we're gonna think that comes from. Well again I think it's another projection. So if you look at people that have used sex to soothe Right, their nervous system, and it's become compulsive for them. They might look at somebody who has control over their body and their desires, and they might project like

Oh, I wish that I was able to whatever, I don't know, relate in deeper ways or th or things like that. But it it it probably could also bring up their own shame. that they have around being whatever, hypersexual or or a slut. And I use air quotes when when I say that, maybe they have shame secretly'cause they still have some of that religious conditioning or that conditioning around purity culture.

So they see someone exhibiting purity culture and they're like, Oh, right. Like I'm gonna shame you and make you feel shitty for that because it's a so it's always a projection. There's always some form of projection, unconscious projection happening. And and here we are as gay men stuck in stuck in the middle. And this is this is the beef I have. So every time I hear this one way or another.

Not high or low, but anytime I hear this this fixation about body count, I just wish we didn't like I just wish we just didn't not didn't talk about it'cause I think talking about it in a in a positive, healthy way is fine in a like in a in a data sense. But like It doesn't mean anything. It's just a story. And that story is riddled with conditioning and shame. Maybe that's a question for our listeners out there is when you hear of people who maybe have a lot of sex for what is

you know, normal for your mindset or little, what is the story you tell yourself about them? Are they dirty and gross and easy? Or are they prudish and repressed and something's wrong with them? Like what what is that story you tell? There should be it should be a very neutral story. Like, okay, it's just a number. Has nothing to do with anything. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm curious for you in a relationship, if you were to meet a guy and you had known that he had been with so many guys prior, would that have any impact on you? No, not at all. Okay. And and the well if they if they hadn't.

Yeah, it wouldn't impact me at all. I mean, we've had a lot, I think, partners over the years. So I mean, I would never be one to judge one way or another, I think. Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah. How about you? You know, it's might be different because you you live in a very big city where it's like it's still there's still gonna have crossover, but in a city like Calgary, right, two million people there's

The gay community is not as large. So I do think if my partner had slept with all these people and a lot of them were my friends, that like there's just that. That I don't know. It kinda just makes me feel a little bit like oh Right. Like so that would be my only issue. Like for me it wouldn't be like, Oh, you're dirty or it wouldn't be a shaming thing. It would be like a you know,'cause I'm I'm I would say I'm more monogamous, I'm demisexual. So there's this idea of like

It's it's special. It's very sacred for me to share my body with somebody and like So I would want somebody that kinda has those same values and I I feel like yeah, and that's I don't think it's a moral thing for me. It feels like a Yeah, it's just like it's special. I don't know. Like I don't I don't just give it out

like easily. Like I would really need to like know somebody and know that they're right. And this that's what makes me demisexual, right? Um so I and I do think that I would wanna I would wanna date another demisexual. I think if I if I could, if I had a choice, I would want someone that shares those same values. Like they're not interested in hookups and and things like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that you just demonstrated for everyone like how well you know yourself and that your your decision, your desire comes from who you are, your core values. It does not come from any kind of conditioning.

about what you should or shouldn't do. It's just that the way you said that was very much this is who I am and this is what I want. And you don't have to justify that to anyone. Yeah, exactly. And that's that's for everyone out there. That's that's how I think you should approach um your desires and in sexuality and not even look at the number. Yeah, I agree. Emotional maturity has taught me how to stay in my own lane. That's it. Right? Like I don't

I don't look at somebody else and and and judge their their experience and unless it impacts me. If it doesn't impact me then Right. And and why I talk so much about sexual compulsivity and like'cause that does impact me. Right. Like I'm not in a relationship. I'm in the dating pool.

Right. So I'm impacted by people's sexual compulsivity and the hypersexuality in the culture because I as a demisexual man I want something more. Right. So as soon as I get into a relationship, then I'll probably stop talking about that topic because it doesn't impact me anymore.

That if we can look at f you know, that there is impact, I am impacted by this, then sure, talk about it. But if you're not impacted by it, then just stay in your own lane, right? And focus on your own on your own stuff. Yeah, I think that that's where where we're different is I am not a demisexual, like I don't need to have that I don't need to have that emotion. Of course I love that emotional connection, but I don't need to have it to enjoy sex and and seek sex.

I will say for me, I'm very it's fluid. Like I'm sure all of our listeners out there, there's times where you can have a very high libido and be very sexually charged in one particular season of your life, or even just days and weeks.

And then other times it just it's offline. And I've noticed that especially as I've gotten older, like if it's offline I don't make it mean anything. And I'm like, Oh my God, what's wrong with me? Like yeah, I'm not horny or I'm not I'm not having as much sex as I used to. Yeah. It's like, okay, well this just isn't something that is

similar to what you have said, it's just not something that my focused on right now and doesn't need to be. There's nothing nothing has gone wrong because suddenly I'm not doing the same things I used to do. And again, not making it mean anything. Now I do think it's worth asking the question, why is this why is this?

And the answer for me is always I'm focused on other things. Other priorities have taken over and that just goes to the back of the line and that's okay. But I think it is worth asking the question, where is this coming from? Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's interesting. My libido is governed by connection. That's what makes me demisexual. So if I don't have connection, I don't have a libido. It's really interesting.

When I when I travel I have moments where I'm like, Okay, I know that this is going like I kinda have intentions, like if my if my body agrees this is gonna be a a place for a a week or two that I purposefully intentionally want to go have fun and seek out these experiences, whether it's dates, divorce, just sex, or just just fun in general. Um

And then there's times where I d I don't and that's okay too. And I focus more on I wanna just meet like I kinda go into that demisexual mode. I wouldn't say I'm always a demisexual'cause I'm not, but there are certainly times where I much rather crave an emotional connection than a sexual one. And again, I'll just be like, Okay, I know what I want and then I'm gonna act accordingly. Match my needs in this moment with my actions. But I think people

lack sometimes that awareness to ask themselves genuinely like, what am I most seeking right now? Am I am I needing Just a fun fuck. Great. That's what you need. If you like sometimes I just want to cuddle. I've talked about this before. Go on.

Grinder, I've talked to him grinder, I'm like, listen, I don't want to hook up, but I would love it if you came over and we called and watched a movie or something. That's nice. Like I'm not just saying that, like I actually mean that. Yeah. Not just Netflix and chill. Like really Netflix and chill.

What what do you think you could oh sorry, go ahead, go ahead. I was just gonna say when when cuddling turns into sex, that's the best, right? And that's how how I would always start intimacy. I would never because that's why I don't do hookups so I'd be like, Yeah, like have a date, have a have a dinner, go for a walk, something, and then it would the next thing would be cuddling and my nervous system syncopates to theirs, right? And then I can like men maybe the it's a kiss.

And then right. So it's a gradual progression into sex. And I think for me that works really well. Right. And it's like there's also the beautiful thing about that is the sexual tension gets to build. Mm in me, in my nervous system. And then when it c when it's finally happening, it's like, oh my God, it's amazing, right? Yeah. One thing that

We talked about heated robbery a couple episodes ago. And uh One thing that I can't stand, I call that like locker room bravado culture of like we we hear like we hear straight guys. This happens in like the straight world where like they talk about girls, they fucking all these things. Yet it we do the same shit in the gay world. And I'm like, this is a

toxic kind of masculinity type of ick that I get. And like these guys, oh yeah, I fucked all these people and this is my load count and this is my body count. And I'm like, we're no that this is the same shit. It was just with a it was just the same sex instead of a different sex.

And that really that's another thing that really grates me'cause it means absolutely nothing. I'm like, are we putting these people on a pedestal? Why? What what again, what are you making that mean about them that they are better, that they are more masculine, that they're more desirable, that they're hotter,'cause trust

They're not. Yeah. And and or objectifying people, right?'Cause it's like it's just a body, like you know, it's just a warm hole that I used to, you know, satisfy my means or whatever. It's like so yeah, I think it's Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of guys find their worth in that because it they say, Oh, because this many people I mean, I'm saying these guys, but I used to do this. Okay. So I'm speaking from experience here. But it used to be a fact of

I didn't believe myself lovable, desirable, worthy, or hot until all these people fucked me. And now I'm like, yeah, okay, well then I must. 'Cause you know, fourteen people fucked me, so that must mean that I'm odd, but like that does not that's not what that means at all. It just means that fourteen people fucked you. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm trying to like go back'cause I would have to go back into my probably my like

Early to mid twenties and I think maybe I was a bit like that. But I've so I feel so far removed from that now that it's hard for me to relate to that mentality because I I I don't use my body as like a currency anymore. Like I've really learned how to move away from that. And I think that also just uh maybe comes with age.

too like and maturity and and things like that. But maybe not necessarily. I think that comes with growth, personal growth and yeah. Yeah. I run a a group, as you know, called Sexual Empowerment One O One, Four Years Now. And that's one of the things that we talk about. And one of the

One of the things that I talk about when I'm marketing this group actively and like Instagram is that people do this a lot and they mistake Sexual empowerment with like Again, the number of partners you have or the number of experience you have. And that's not it. It has nothing to do with that. You c you can be sexually empowered and sex positive even and have had very little or few or none partners.

Yeah, exactly. Or many. And and again, you have to completely decouple this number from that term sex, sexual empowerment, exactly. Or sex positivity. So let's talk about that a bit. Let's talk about what that really is. If it's not a number, then what is sexual empowerment. I think for me, sexual empowerment is about Pleasure, it's pleasure based.

Right, not performance based. So there's a a focus on being present in the moment and experiencing pleasure. And I think it's it's sexual authenticity, just being authentic and owning desire. Right. And without shame. So I would say sexual empowerment is the absence of shame and being, yeah, fully in our body and

uh aligned to what we want. Yeah. Truly what we want. Nailed it. Passing grade format. Uh yeah, it's it's I would say it's the absence of any moral moral hierarchy in what one way or another. Yeah. So yeah, the absence of shame for sure. And it's not a pressure to want more for any reason, but it's no shame for wanting less either.

Yeah. And and it's this beautiful space where yeah, you said it really well. It's just comes from a very authentic place. And I will add one more thing. It's being informed and educated because if you're going to be sexually active, if you choose to be sexually active, Um, sex positivity and sexual empowerment. I do an entire week on this is sex education, sexual health, substances. You gotta know all of it. And the sex education I learned in Catholic school was

Abysmal at the time. I don't know what they're doing these days, but we certainly did not learn about same-sex sex, and we certainly did not learn about substances which let's be real, a lot of folks in the gay world or in the world in general mix substances and sex. And so My point here is you have to be educated and informed and you can't bury your head in the sand about what's going on in the world. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I would also maybe add to intention.

Intention behind why you're having sex,'cause I think sometimes we're we're cognitively having sex from our minds, like, oh, he's hot. We ha have to have sex and we're disconnected from our bodies, right? Or Or we're doing it for performance, or we're doing it for currency, or we're doing it for whatever. So it understanding the intention of why you're doing it can lead to empowerment as well.

Yeah, another one is we're we're this is great'cause you you keep reminding me another one. Um is is integrating that part of you as a as a beautiful, wonderful, welcome part of you. Not like oh my gosh, this I have to like compartmentalize my sexual self. I think a lot of Gay guys do this because, you know, if they're in the closet or if you're if you have that internalized shame around your same sex desire, we have our lives and then we have like

If which is over here in the corner in the very back that we don't talk about, we do in secret in the corner and we don't we don't share. Um but that integration I think is really important, even just within yourself and your own identity, to say, Yeah, I have a part of me that is Interested in pleasure and desire and sex and sexuality and what that looks like. Yeah. Yeah. I like that.

I love talking about desire. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's our next episode. Yeah, I was gonna say we're doing another episode. Authenticity, owning your desires coming up next week. Next week, right. And this is the stuff that I want to say we do unpack in

places like our connection circles. And I think the kind of conversation that Matt and I are having here in in our next week are really important because what I hope this is modeling for our listeners and viewers out there is like two grown men who enjoy sex. who can have sex and talk about it without notice how we're not sexualizing each other. Yeah. Really important. I think we do that a lot. And so getting into these spaces really does create

and contribute to that sex positivity and sexual environment. So we do that in our connection circles. I'll be doing, I don't know when this airs. I'll be doing one about your relationship to porn coming up. I don't know when this is, but hopefully it's still available. And beyond that, running my I am running my sexual empowerment group again in the spring. I like I said, it's it's once a year. I run it in the spring only and uh we start in April.

So I'll put the I'll put all the details in the show notes. I don't need to talk about it here. But if you guys are listening to this and you're interested in these kinds of conversations, we'll be running that in April. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then my connection circle this month is uh sexual empowerment. Perfect.

Or sorry, sexual authenticity, owning your desires, learning how to own your what you desire. Yeah. Come and join us and have these conversations. Yeah. And and we're not teaching people how to have more sex. Hopefully that we've made that abundantly clear, clear. If you want to Absolutely go for it. Do that. But if you don't want to, you don't have to. But I think we we assume that those two words.

mean, oh, I have lots of sex and I'm very kinky and I'm like they have nothing to do with each other. Yeah, exactly. I'm on a mission to decouple and demystify these terms. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Any anything else on the topic? No, I feel complete.

I feel sufficiently like I've and gotten the the that off my shoulder, my the the jerk off my shoulder. Yeah. Okay guys.

Well thank you for joining us on this episode. Uh remember that body count means absolutely nothing. to start really getting in tune with what it is you truly want. And actually next week we'll be doing a great episode about that. So make sure you join us. Now if you're listening on Apple, you can get that episode immediately because available to you now. If you're listening to us on any other platform, including YouTube, it'll be released on Thursday. A couple other things. This uh

This podcast is supported by donations, so please do donate to the show. There's a link in the show notes, and uh as always. And check out our events section. Hope to see you there. Bye guys.