Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast series by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about everything personal development, mental health, and sexuality. We are your hosts, Michael Deoreo. He is a life and wellness coach, specializing in sexuality, relationships, and self-confidence. Reno Johnson is a spiritual, life, love, and business coach. And myself, Matt Lancidall, a counselor and facilitator, specializing in healing and empowerment.
We each have our own private practice, and in this podcast we're sharing all of our best stuff. Today, we're talking about self-disclosure, the art of revealing yourself. And we're going to be exploring questions like, how do you practice self-disclosure, and what have you had to learn to disclose about yourself? What fears arise when you practice self-disclosure, and how has self-disclosure positively impacted your life?
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Learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting instant access to 45 plus premium personal development coaching videos created by us as well as our healing your shame and building better relationships courses. You can head over to gaymengoingdeeper.com for more information about that. Okay, self-disclosure. Really at the end of the day, this is what we do on this podcast, like the three of us.
And I want to also share too that it doesn't really feel like self-disclosure to the world. It feels like disclosure to you guys, right? And then it just happens to get published and people see it, right? Which is kind of like a weird phenomenon for me. But when I'm sharing, I'm like sharing with you too, and then just people get to kind of like peep in on it. That's how I feel.
So for me in this context, it doesn't really feel scary, but usually it is very scary for a lot of people and even for myself, depending on the context of what I'm sharing, it can be really scary to reveal ourselves. And I think there's different levels of self-reveal. There's retro-spective revealing, which is like, I went through this last year and I'm revealing it now and it's still vulnerable, but it's like I'm not going through it right now.
So maybe that reveals less intense than a reveal of like, yeah, right now I'm struggling with finances and right now I'm got depression or whatever it might be that you've got going on. And owning that and bringing it to the surface, that can be a different level of self-reveal. There's also things like performative vulnerability, right, which is like people performing vulnerability as opposed to it actually being a genuine reveal that feels really edgy, right?
So self-disclosure is, you know, when we are talking about revealing our true authentic self, it's really revealing our whole self. It's revealing the good, the bad, and the ugly, right? And being mindful of who we share these things with too, right? Self-revealing isn't just about like dumping it on to everybody. It's really about like, has this person earned the right to see my good, bad, and ugly parts? And do I feel safe sharing these parts with this person?
I think there's discernment that's required when we're talking about self-disclosure. From my perspective, vulnerability and authenticity are required when we're practicing true self-disclosure. Right? We're being vulnerable and we're sharing from a vulnerable place our most authentic self, right? Our fears, our needs, our insecurities, our self-dotes, our inner critic, all these sorts of things are really important.
And the last thing I want to say here is like really self-disclosure, from my perspective, it really attracts the people that we need in our life. Because when we disclose who we authentically are, we attract what we need or who we need back. So for myself, self-disclosure has been a beautiful tool that has helped me attract, well, for example, YouTube. Right?
YouTube wouldn't be in my life if it wasn't for me, you know, disclosing myself and sharing that video that I first shared, being super vulnerable and disclosing my fears and my insecurities and my frustrations with the community that I met, Callan, and then I met Michael, and then I met Reno. And, you know, so there's a really beautiful outpouring that can happen when we do reveal ourselves in an intimate way. So yeah, that's my little monologue here. So let's start with Reno.
How do you practice self-disclosure and what have you had to learn to disclose about yourself? Curious. I was really beautiful, Matt. Thank you for that opening and for sharing the benefit of self-disclosure. Like I love that you said, you know, we're like we're here. We're here because of self-disclosure. And I think that's a beautiful message and testament.
Yeah, for me, self-disclosure begins with practice, you know, the practice of curiosity, the practice of compassionate inquiry, the practice of surrender and rigorous honesty. With myself first, right, with myself first. And I think that the, that practice leads to self-awareness. And from that self-awareness, self-disclosure can follow.
You know, in simple ways, like I feel sad, I feel angry, I feel lonely, I feel tired, I feel confused, I feel agitated, I feel scared, I feel guilty, embarrassed, ashamed, you know. And then to go into exploration and expression of like why that's present, you know, I think that's big. And that to me, a self-disclosure in its sort of simplest form, like if I were speaking to a child, you know, I'd say like start there.
How do you feel and why, you know, I've had to learn to disclose like when I need help, you know, that's hard. When there's struggle, that's that's challenging. When there's confusion or uncertainty, when there's fear, when I'm advocating for my needs, that's a big one too, and asking for what I want, right? When I'm honoring and expressing my values, my ideas, my beliefs, perspectives, my experience, and when I feel hurt or insecure.
And those last ones can be really challenging because, you know, and we'll probably talk a little bit more about this later, but, you know, to disclose one's values and ideas and beliefs and perspectives, there's always sort of this edginess to that, right? Like will they be received, you know, or will they be rejected? And if I align closely with those things, then maybe there's a sense that they're not just being rejected, I am, you know?
And so I like what you said earlier about discernment, because that's really important, you know, maybe someone isn't rejecting me, they're just not on board with what I'm just closing or they don't align with, or resonate with what I'm just closing. So, anyway, that is my answer. Thanks, Reno. Thanks. Yeah, good topic. Thank you for, I didn't know what I was going to share, but now I do. So thanks guys for getting the Jews this morning for me.
I think I guess I'll start by saying a remnant of my lone wolf personality is that I do still and I do feel more comfortable keeping my cards close to my chest in my life, which is probably very ironic for a lot of people to listen to this podcast, because we talk a lot. I don't get my cards close to my chest here, but really I do.
I mean, I mean, people who know me know that I don't, I don't divulge too too much about some things, about other things I divulge a lot, but I believe that information is power. And so my fear and we'll get to this more is this information can be used against me. So I've learned to hide kind of behind my shyness through my life. And I thought that that was a good, I was like, okay, well, it's just because I'm shy or just because I don't want people to know this about me.
I mean, being gay is an obvious example of being in the closet, right? When I was a kid. But at the same time, obviously in the correct circumstances, self-disclosure is a great that can be a great that not always as you had talked about that. So how do I practice it? I mean, besides here with you guys, that's the best practice I've got. But also in my work, right? In my coaching, sometimes I will, to the extent that it's appropriate and will help.
I can kind of relate some of my own experiences with people. And that can be very helpful. And I've had to learn when and how to do that in the right circumstance and the right container, obviously. Obviously, when it comes to relationships and people that I love disclosing how I'm feeling disclosing what's going on in my, especially with my feelings, that's usually the hardest one for me. In a way that, again, serves of greater purpose.
I think the reason why, the motivation why is really important to me. Sometimes those motivations can feel manipulative when I'm on the receiving end of it. I'm like, I don't know, I don't like where this is going. Like some people try to overshare to an extent to get something from me. I feel sometimes. I don't like that in a very sensitive way. So I want to make sure I do the same thing, but I think I overdo it. I think I don't share enough sometimes.
And I have been told from many people in my life that I can come across as too guarded or aloof or arrogant or even, you know, snobby because I don't like in a big group. I'll just be the kind of quiet guy observing, watching, noting, you know, it's what I do. I'm really good at that. I've always kind of played that role in my family and young as a child, big loud family. I just kind of learned to stay quiet and watch the show. So that stays with me.
So it's harder for me to give myself permission. And what I find helps is when people will say, Michael, tell me how are you feeling, right? Like when I get that invitation, then I can do it. But it doesn't come naturally to me, which again, I know it's probably very, very surprising for everyone listening to this after the last three years of me sharing my entire personal life on this podcast. Thanks, Michael.
It reminds me of like the structure of this podcast, like when we first started, it was the four of us. And Reno and Callan were more like jump in and talk. And then Michael and I were more sit back and just listen. It was like uneven distribution of sharing. So we decided to create this structure. And that's why the structure exists. And I think Michael and I prefer to have that space where we can just talk and not be like you're having to jump in or people jumping in.
So it just made me think of that. Like, because I was like that in my family, too. I was kind of shy and I was like never the one to like fully assert. I'd always kind of hang back and I was okay to just listen. And in most cases, I'm pretty okay to just listen. So that's interesting. Reno does a really good job. I remember those early days. I remember if you guys I didn't, I didn't, I was not comfortable doing the podcast in the early days.
And Reno, I remember you specifically would jump in and say, Michael, tell us what you're thinking. Yeah, you would do a really good job of doing that. So thank you, Reno. Yeah. Reno is good at including.
Yeah. Yeah, I like what you said, Reno about, you know, like self disclosure and really like, it's about disclosing to yourself first and really like, you know, because sometimes we can be in denial about things or we can like have these kind of layers of things that were like blocking against seeing in ourselves. And you know, I live my life by the five principles of authentic relating and the third principle is own your experience and the fourth principle is reveal your experience.
And it's important to own your experience first and kind of be with it and get clear about it so that you're not projecting it onto people. If we, if we don't own our experience and we just jump into revealing it, we, it's easy to lead into projection. And I find that, you know, it's, it's interesting to, I think self disclosure for me has led to a lot of beautiful things. But one of the things that it's led to that has been a little bit challenging is people projecting onto me.
So for example, they'll like listen to my shares in my videos or on this podcast or even in my sessions. And they'll sometimes people haven't worked towards maybe some of the things that I have. And they'll see the way I'm negotiating with this part of myself and they aren't negotiating with, with that part of themselves in the same way that I am. And that can cause like dissonance for them and then they project. So it's something that I'm very mindful of and I'm sure I do that too.
I think we all have blind spots and we're all kind of projecting onto different people's projectors at different times. So yeah, it's interesting. But I want to, I want to share a story of something that just happened to me. So I, I just started, I haven't run a workshop online for my highly sensitive people for two years. I just haven't been feeling it. But I just started one and it started on Wednesday this week. And I had, they used to be two and a half hours long.
I decided to create them to be three hours long because they felt a bit rushed before. So we're working and it was supposed to be 430 to 730. And we're going along and I started all of a sudden for some reason I had seven in my mind. So I'm like thinking, I'm like, oh my god, time's going by so quick. So I started like going through and kind of like rushing the material and things like that and then go to start landing the plane at seven o'clock and wrap up. And no one said anything to me.
And I'm thinking like no, no, no issue. So then I, we wrap up and I send out an email to the participants afterwards and I always include my email in there. And I'm going and I'm looking and I'm like, I don't see the email coming through my, what the heck? So I go into my email system and it says 730 that the email is supposed to be sent out. And I'm thinking, oh my god, like I totally ended the workshop 30 minutes early.
So immediately like a wash up shame comes over me and I'm just like, what a knob. I can feel my inner critic like totally, you know, starting to get activated. And I'm like, okay, I got two options here. I can pretend like it didn't happen and never bring it up and I know everybody knows but they just won't say anything. Or I can disclose and reveal my experience. So we have everybody in a WhatsApp chat.
So I go in on the WhatsApp chat, you know, share the video and I'm just like, oh my god, I can't believe this happened. I'm so sorry. I'm just owning my experience and then pause, you know, afterwards, you know, 30 minutes goes by and my inner critic is still running while then I'm like, oh my god, like I'm beating myself up.
So I get on the video again and I, you know, just share some more and I'm just revealing the things that are coming up for me and keep in mind like my workshop is called authentic relating and empowerment. So I'm like practicing these principles of like revealing myself and revealing what's coming up for me. But yeah, it was just really interesting like how these parts of me. So a big part that I don't like to disclose is like failures or not getting it right.
I think so these feelings are these experiences lead to inadequacy for me. I always feel inadequate like I did something wrong or I'm wrong. If I, if I make a mistake, which is kind of pointing me right now into like, I have a, an interesting relationship with my inner critic and I'm really like reconciling and working with this part of myself. So I think that's a big one. And then the next one for me would be fear.
So growing up having trauma in my life, I learned one of my biggest protectors became fight and just to really kind of shell off and put high walls up and these sorts of things. So I never wanted to show people that I was scared and especially in my intimate relationships. So for me, in order to have successful intimate relationships, I have to reveal my fears and share them with people because they otherwise they run wild. And then I end up acting them out.
They play out in my relationship if they don't get talked out. So I just for me, that's like probably the biggest one that I, that I need to really always be mindful of is sharing these parts of myself with people that can hold that, I should say, because I'm not just going to share my fears with somebody that can't hold that with me. And because I think when, you know, some, in some instances when I've shared my fears with somebody that can't hold that, they, they freak out.
They're like, I don't know what to do with this. And then it leads to, you know, me feeling rejected. I'm feeling like they can't, you know, they're not good enough because they can't hold that. So it's, you know, it's kind of a fine art, right? I'm finding and I'm learning and I'm, I've learned that it's really about trial and error. I've overshared and over disclosed at times. And then I've undershared and under disclosed at times.
And I'm kind of finding this like nice sweet spot in my life of like, you know, how to share, when to share and with whom to share. I think is our three really important things to always be mindful of. So I want to piggyback on something you just said, Matt.
Oh, I remember I was in a, I have this pattern in relationships where about two months in, I would experience this sort of guttural nausea and I would completely shut down and go from being, you know, totally attracted and enamored with the person I was with to just like almost repulsed by them. And I couldn't understand why it was such a confusing experience for me.
And I just thought that was destined to play this out again and again because I had no knowledge at the time of, of, you know, what was possible. And I remember the first time I disclosed it, what you just described happened. It was like, I didn't know that this person couldn't handle me disclosing what I was experiencing. Right? Because for me, I was simply sharing what was there. It wasn't, it wasn't reflective of, you know, us breaking up or something like that.
I was just like, I need to say what's here because it's so, it's so big and so present. And, you know, it felt necessary to kind of talk it out. He ended up really taking it personally, you know, and I had to reassure him that it wasn't about him. And then I remember in my, in the relationship that followed, I shared it again.
What happened was it was coming up and the person I was with inquired and they did so compassionately and that was such a remarkable healing for me because they were available to help me kind of work through this thing in our relationship. And I ended up overcoming that, that, that pattern and being with them for, it was a record for me, a record two and a half years, you know, I went from two months to two and a half years because they were able to hold space for my share, you know.
So it's really beautiful. I love that you shared what you shared and it really is. There really is something to selecting, you know, who you just close to. Yeah. Yeah. I want a piggy, piggy back. I think you just really made me have an epiphany. It was really cool because I need that in a relationship. Like I want to be kind of like drawn out. I don't want to necessarily have to always be drawn like, and I've never met a guy that draws me out yet.
And that's probably why I haven't been in a relationship to that's been like, okay, this is my person. I've always felt like, like, this isn't quite what I'm looking for, like, but I'll hang out here anyway. So yeah, thank you because I'm going to lead with that now and be like, I want you to ask me lots of questions. I want you to draw out, ask me what my fears are.
Let me, you know, like, and let's work through it together because I find sometimes I'm like sharing things and I feel like people aren't interested. They don't want to be good. We're good at drawing and sharing, you know, you know, I feel like we're good at drawing it out. The people are really good at sharing, you know, but I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah, thanks for you. Mm-hmm. Anything you want a piggy, piggy, piggy back on, Michael?
I actually just thought, well, I mean, yes, I actually just thought of a recent example. So I'm here in in Portoviara to meeting lots of people and, you know, usual small talk. What do you do? Where you from? And one guy, the one that sticks with me kind of is similar to what you had said. He asked me, like, questions like, oh, and this is your, you know, this is your fourth time here. What is it? What is it about Portoviara that keeps you coming back?
Like, those kinds of questions, like, what are you drawn to? Obviously, very drawn to this place. What is it about that? Is there a specific memory? So I will say, like, people who are interested in you genuinely, obviously, that feels good, right? That feels good to us. Like, oh, this person is interested in me. But that doesn't always mean you have to share. I'm not saying that you have to, you know, give into that. But I will say that it does feel nice.
And I mean, if we can talk about another topic on dating, we can get into that another day. But what's that saying? Instead of worrying about being interesting, be interested. I thought we'd use that before. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. Like, relating, they say people become interesting when you become interested.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's beautiful because then there's always space, you know, it's like, if I'm interested, if you come in interested and I come in interested, then there's just one reciprocity, you know, as opposed to like, oh, well, you know, they got to go first, right? It's like, let's both be interested, you know, let's both be available.
Yeah. I bet you an outline of work, we probably do that a lot more easily and maybe more than other people just because we're used to it, right? That's what we do. Yeah. I've had some feedback on like dates and things where people feel interrogated. Yeah. Because I'm like, I'm just, this is what I do for living. I talk about deep things for living.
So like, when I ask a question, like, I'm like, oh, it's, you could answer like with the most horrible traumatic thing and it wouldn't even phase me, you know what I mean? So I, but I think I've had to learn how like that people, most people aren't like that. So I have to like draw that back in and be like, okay, take it slow, Matt, like you don't need to ask like the most intimate questions right away. That's what I love hanging out with you.
I was at a pool party here and everyone's like drinking. I was going time in the pool and then I'm just chatting with this one guy and he starts talking about like, you know, this book key one story is like, oh, I, I want to try this book my whole life and I haven't been able to and you mean, I'm like, oh, why not? Why do you think that is? Like just, but it's so natural to me like, I really truly want to know why.
And then we got to do this whole conversation just the two of us and then a little of this pool, everyone else is just on another level. We're having this very intimate moment, which I love. I love like I'd rather be doing that with him and finding out what is the block behind why he hasn't run this book that he allegedly loves so much. It's a very good conversation. Yeah. You should offer life coaching pool side. Guys, $100. Yes. Oh my gosh. I'm into it. This is it.
This is really while you're on holidays. Yeah. This is where I live now. I'm going to have to figure that out. There's a pool right behind me. You can see it. There's a pool behind that chair. Yeah. Yeah. That was going to say Michael's backdrop is not a green screen. By the way, that's a pretty epic epic. It's real. My friends. It's all right. Okay. Next question. What fears arise when you practice self disclosure Reno? Yeah. That I'll be alienated exiled alone, cancelled, harmed.
That I'll experience loss or rejection. Definitely. I remember when I came out, right? I was terrified that the whole world was going to implode. Right? I was going to lose everyone and everything. And then when I came out as spiritual, I was like, oh no. Everyone's going to think I'm so weird, right? I'm going to lose them into the spiritual stuff. And then funny enough, when I started going back to church again, and I was like really curious about the Bible and scripture and God.
And that was really edgy too to say that out loud. I was like, oh no. Now all my friends who identify as spiritual or all my friends who identify as queer are alienating me because I'm into God or I'm into church, right? And I'm going to lose everybody. When I came out, it was the opposite. It was like, oh, all my religious Christian heterophans are going to write. So there was that.
And then, and then even I would say, I'm not big in the politics, but even in these moments where I connect to certain conservative political views, right? Or I mean, there's so many things I can think of. But it's like, there's always this fear if I just close this, you know, I'm going to be exiled. I'm going to be alone. I'm going to be canceled. Even in these moments where maybe there's something I don't understand, right?
And I'm not going to get too deep into this, but like world issues, like world issues, and really big significant discussions, whether it's like some of the wars that are happening in the world or things surrounding identity, religion, politics, right? It's like, if I fear sometimes that if I express that I don't know where I'm confused or I don't necessarily agree with something in this moment, and that that could change, right?
There's this sense that like people will promptly jump down my throat or just like cut me off, right? And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, let me just reveal what's happening for me, you know, before you make any assumptions about who I am and what it all means, you know? So I think there's a lot of that there. And I could go in a tangent about, you know, all this cancelling business and stuff, but I won't. My God, it's like, oh, so yeah, that's my answer to that question.
Yeah. Thanks, Reno. Have we ever done a podcast on cancel culture? No, we should have. We should have. We should have. We should have. We might get cancelling for it. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we'll practice what we preach. Thanks, Reno. I wanted to ask you something. Have you ever struggled with people pleasing? In your life? Oh, big time. Yeah. Certainly, certainly, wanting to be liked, wanting to be loved, wanting to be praised, wanting to be viewed as good and virtuous, you know, certainly.
Yeah. And doing, doing whatever was necessary to be viewed in that way, even to the point of dishonoring myself and what was true for me and aligned for me, you know, yeah. Yeah. I thought so when I resonated with your, your share. Yeah. I think we have similarities there. Thanks for asking. Thanks for sharing. Yeah. What about you, Michael? Yeah, what fears arise? Everything you said, 100%. So all of that, yeah, that really resonated with me.
I would say at the beginning, or not the beginning, younger in my younger days maybe, there was a lot of that fear of judgment and criticism. And then as I said at the beginning, you know, can this be used against me? Because information is power. And so people will have information about me while they use this against me. Can they use this against me to emotionally manipulate me? You know, blackmail me, whatever that is. That was a lot of it at the beginning.
That has dissipated to a big degree because of the nature of the work we do. Like, you know, we're here, we've been doing this for a few years on my, on my Instagram. I certainly say some things that ruffle some feathers. So I've just gotten used to it to that degree. I would say more these days, what fears I have is the vulnerability hangover. Did I overshare? And then once it's done, it's done. Like, I can't take it back. Why did I do that? Why did I say that?
People are going to think, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It feels very raw. It feels very overexposed. You know, I say, oh, my humanity is showing. People can see my humanity. They can see the pain, the imperfection, the whatever. So it's not just about the judgment and criticism that comes with it. It's more so like the shame almost, like I did something wrong. Like I did something wrong by sharing that.
A few, I don't know when this is going to get released, but a podcast I did with my X. So if it was worth to say that. And we talked about the end of our relationship and why we came to that decision and sort of, it was, you know, enough time had passed that we were ready to talk about it. But still, when that podcast was released, I, people who are on my email list know this because I told my subscribers, but I wanted to pull the episode.
I wanted to just like take it down and add another one ready to go. So I could just have easily replaced it and just said, fuck it, I'm not doing this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to do this. That was very much a vulnerability hangover moment because I thought this is too much. I'm oversharing like why am I letting people into this level of detail or why did we, it was a choice we both made. So I think that was it. And I had to really go through that.
And one of the things we do with vulnerability hangovers is this is very common in like men's groups and sharing, right? Like I run a men's group and one of the first things we talk about is what is a vulnerability hangover, what does it feel like, what does it sound like in your mind, which I kind of just did now. I should have said that I should have said that I wish I could take that back. And why are we having it?
Why are we experiencing this like deep shame from sharing, which is supposed to be the thing that connects us. So I had to kind of practice what I breach in that moment. And that was probably the hardest of all the podcasts I've done so far on the show. That was the hardest one for me. And I really did until it was released, I was like, I'm just going to pull it. I don't care. But I did. So I think that's been the hardest thing is like knowing like Matt, you're talking about that line.
Sometimes it's too much. Sometimes it's not enough. Like sometimes it feels very, very close to that too much line. And what I've learned, how I've dealt with it in my own mind is I kind of ask myself some questions like how I process this situation, whatever it is, enough in my own mind. Do I feel clean about it here? Even if it's a painful situation, do I feel clean about it? Do I feel clear? Do I feel like, okay, this is something that happened? Yes, it's painful. Matt, can I use that?
And am I ready to use that to let people in and show them around, so to speak, so that it could potentially help them. It could potentially give them some hope or give them some insight or something for their own lives, not for me. It's not about like, look at me. It's more so, hey, here's the situation that's happening. Feel free to use this and take what you want from it and use it in your own life. So that's kind of the criteria that I go through now. And in that moment, we did it together.
So my four-part partner and I sat through it, sat there and said, okay, are we ready to do this? Like, here's, and we said, here's what we're going to share. Here's what we're going to share and here's what we're not going to share. We're not going to go into this level of detail, which is like an iceberg right into our relationship. What we shared was like this big versus what everyone else, what was behind closed doors.
And so being very deliberate about, okay, what am I willing to share, what am I not willing to share, what's the line there? And then just making sure he's stuck to it. But that's, I'd say that's my biggest turn. I was, is the oversharing, the vulnerability hangover, hangover that comes with it. There's, I have, I have a question for you and I, and I also have a statement to make. So you know, one of the things that I've noticed in, in like reality television is actually the thing that got me.
So I'm like a shameless real housewives fan. I love the real housewives of Beverly Hills. And one of the things I noticed is that surrounding reality television culture, there's like, everyone wants in, right? Like you, you give them some and they, and they like, they want it all, right? They're like, we give it all to us. So even when cameras aren't rolling, they're like, what's going on in your personal life and do, do, do, do, do.
And it, my experience is that there's this like feeling of entitlement to like your whole life and your whole world because you've given people a little taste or a little inside look.
And I really just want to say that like, you know, just because we get on here every week and share what we choose to share does not mean that, you know, that like we, we owe the world everything and all of us, you know, it's perfectly acceptable that you just shared some portion of the iceberg, I think that that's okay, you know, and if and when you're ready to share more, then you will.
And if that's never, then that's okay, you know, I really don't think that we, that we owe it to anyone to share everything, you know. And, and sure, that's a, it's a new one statement. I'm sure there are different, you know, there's, there's certain situations where maybe that, that, that idea could be challenged a bit, but, but overall, I think like, yeah, it feels important for me to call that out. This sort of sense of being entitled to, to all of us and every, you know, all of our lives.
And it's like, no, no, no, we need some for us, you know, we need to keep some for us, right? So the other thing I wanted to ask you was, why did you share, if I may, why did you share that? Because that's so powerful and vulnerable that you chose. Yeah. Good question. Um, we did it because we work, as we were going through this breakup, we both said to each other like, wow, we've gone through breakups before, but nothing like this. And it was very different for me.
It was a new excuse for me, like, nothing has happened in this relationship, like usually something there's an event, a triggering event that causes a breakup and people's part ways and that's that. They block each other, delete each other, la, la, la, la. And for him, it was very much the same, but that does not at all what happened. And so, um, while it was actually happening, I was going through a lot of my own growth and my own, you know, I was going through my own stuff.
And as I was doing that, I was like, this is really important lesson for me, like how to say goodbye was kind of like that era of lesson for me. Like how to say goodbye, how to know when to say goodbye, um, you know, in the episode I talked about, you don't have to end something because it's gone bad or you don't have to destroy something to end something, you can come to a very peaceful, beautiful goodbye. But we don't always get that option.
So I had learned a lot about goodbyes and I thought, you know what, this is really important stuff because so many in gay relationships, I find it's so hard to meet other gay guys, right, for friendships and whatnot. If we have someone in our lives who we love genuinely and care about, um, what's, what so often happens is in a relationship, we kind of stick with it and then it deteriorates and then it ends up getting resentful and whatnot. So that doesn't have to happen.
It could just be a case of, you know what, you're not my forever person, but I love you still. And I want you to be my forever friend, maybe. And so that transition I had never really been able to do that before. So that was, that was the reason why he felt the same and it was actually his idea, fun fact, his ideas to do the episode, not my mind. This is so, I love that you just shared that. Thank you. Because I didn't know, you know, I definitely, I made an assumption that it was your idea.
Because, you know, the nature of our lives here is that we're often open and sharing, right? So I thought surely Michael initiated it, but wow. Yeah. Hmm. Thanks for asking though. Hmm, thanks for sharing. Yeah. What about you, Matt? Hmm. Yeah, there's so much percolating. I'm trying to think of which direction I want to go here. Yeah, I think, you know, this, this podcast, it's like, you know, we, we kind of structured it to be a shared lived experience podcast like gay men going deeper.
Like we talk about ourselves, we talk about, you know, our life experiences and we share them. And yeah, I feel, I feel what you were saying, Michael, for sure. Like I've been emotional on the podcast and then I have these hangovers after and I'm like, oh my god, the release date and like we're like two months ahead now, right? So I got a sip on this for like two months knowing that oh my god, everybody's going to know I'm crying about my inner child and shit like that.
So it's like, and it's interesting was when that episode aired, like a lot of my clients watch it and one of my clients messaged me and was like, you know, it's really on, or I was really uncomfortable seeing my therapist in that position. And I was like, oh, like that was such a pain for me. I was like, oh, like, like, it's like the worst thing that somebody could have said, you know, but I'm like, I needed that because I was like, what it did is it reminded me
of my humanity. And I think what I've been going through for the last few years, it's like so much humility. Like I've met humility in like its deepest, deepest way because of a deep amount of suffering and things that I've been going through. So I think again, like if you look at a vulnerability hangover, it's the ego feeling like a little bit bruised or wounded. And it's like the vulnerability hangover, like transforms
into humility. And I think it's like such a gift, you know, so thank you for sharing that. I just went to an authentic relating training. I was the leadership training. It was a seven day retreat in Costa Rica. I was really struggling. When I had left, I went on a personal leave from work. I took five weeks off. So I got there and I was just like, and I had signed up for this like six months prior thinking, oh my, it's six months
from now, hopefully, be feeling better. I really wanted to do this, but I wasn't. I was actually feeling worse. So I get there and I'm like, fuck, there's like 30 people and I'm feeling like crap and like, I'm like watching everybody bond. And then I was doing, like I was observing like they call it a hologram or a pattern coming up. I'm like, I'm going to be over here and you guys can be over there. And I'm just going to watch it.
You know, so I was really noticing some wounding that I have around belonging and letting myself belong. And it started to bring up a lot of emotions for me. And throughout the course of that week, it was very emotional. Every share that I had, I was like crying and like big, heavy crying. And I was releasing a lot and purging a lot. So I was meeting vulnerability
hangover after vulnerability hangover. And then again, more humility would come. So yeah, it's, I actually wasn't going to share this, but you, I didn't even associate the two, like, you know, the fear of self disclosure is the aftermath of my share. I never actually
thought about that. So thank you for bringing that to my, into my realization. But I think just to, you know, kind of answer the question directly, I would say, you know, well, I kind of grew up thinking like, you know, being gay, if I just close this to my family, they're going to think I'm weird or disgusting or deviant or these sorts of things. So there
was this, this thing. And then I've, I've kind of had this, I don't know, carmic experience throughout my life where like, I'm the person in the room or in the group that will say the things that other people are thinking, but don't say. And it's caused a lot of people to, again, project on to me or be like, this guy's weird or like, let's, why we don't want him here because he makes us feel uncomfortable things or whatever it is. And this happens
in my family as well. I kind of felt a little bit black sheepish. And the family and I've had family members even describe me as weird and things like that. So it's like that, that's
been a big thing for me. So, you know, this, this notion of being weird or different has led to me having fears around like being rejected, feeling that I'm too much for people, or that they won't know how to support me because I do know and have been given feedback on like being very intense, my energy is very intense and I carry a lot of momentum into, into connections and things like that. And so there's this feeling that I've had a lot
of my life of being misunderstood. And so I'm always like really hesitant. And that probably is related to the belonging, like why I hang out over here and watch is because I'm like, I'm, I'm worried that people are going to think that, think all these things that I just said, right? Like he's weird. I don't understand him. Why does he make me feel uncomfortable? Like these sorts of things. So they come up. So I'm always really mindful
of that. And I'm like learning now that it's like, and this was related to my inner critic. I have to get my inner critic in check because once my inner critic is in check, it won't matter, right? Because what this all is, is this is, these are judgments that I have of myself. These are perceptions of my own reality. And I'm projecting them into, into the container, right? In that situation, like if I share, these people are going to
think I'm weird. Well, I have to think I'm weird in order for that to even become a problem. Right? So there's a part of me that thinks I'm weird that that doesn't understand or, or feels that I'm not good enough for whatever it might be. So I just know that this is,
and this is kind of where I'm at right now. And it's likely been a big contributor to, like my depression and the things that I've been going through as my inner critic has really been being challenged right now and like coming to the surface and like being ready, like preparing to be healed likely. And it's like, it's just been such a crazy transformation. But yeah, I know that's a, that's a big share, but it's like, it's just, yeah, it's real.
That's what I'm going through right now. So, okay. The last question, Mr. Reno, how has self-disclosure positively impacted your life? Yeah, there's, you know, one thing I want to start with is there's, there's this scene in the movie eight mile with M&M. And he shows up to a rap battle. And in these rap battles, the name of the game is to come in with ammunition, right? Michael has referenced a few times,
like, will this be used against me? And so the name of the game is to come in with ammunition and kind of use it against your opponent, right? And, and so M&M comes into the rap battle. And instead of coming armed with, you know, ammunition and information about his opponent, he comes in and reveals everything about himself that his opponent could possibly say, you know, yeah, I am white. Yeah, I do live in the trailer of the park. Yeah, my girl did cheat
on me. Yeah, you know, and he just like lays it all out in this really beautiful and poetic way through rap. And when his opponent goes, when it's his opponents turn to speak, he's, he's choked, as they say, in in in the rap battle arena, like he's got nothing to say.
And I just thought what a remarkable moment. And it stays with me to this day because what I've come to realize is that when when when I disclose the very things I'm most afraid that people knowing about me are saying about me, and I face that myself of my own choosing of my own sovereignty, I'm liberated. You know, I'm liberated. And so, yeah, self-disclosure has like, you know, it's made me, it's made me more courageous. It's made me more compassionate.
Right? There are people who I used to judge and who I had trouble relating to. And as I disclosed myself and came to terms with myself and connected with myself and was rigorously honest with myself, it was like, oh, the, you know, the, you know, the cheater or the, the
like, the, I'm trying, I'm trying to think of other examples, but like, you know, all these people who are infamous, like I could begin to have compassion for even even them, you know, anyone I have previously judged I could have compassion for, and especially myself, you know, I became more empathetic, I became more understanding, I became more intuitive, I became more clear, you know, I've become more sovereign and abundant as well, which is surprising because
that is not the story that my mind and my ego would have me believe. It's like, oh, but you won't be powerful, but you won't be in control, but you will be alone, but you will be without, I have gained so much and more every time that I have disclosed, right? And the, you know, the things I feared would happen have happened at times, right? Like, couple of my best friends from high school, they're not my best friends anymore, you know, I came
out and that changed things, right? So I'm not suggesting that what we fear won't happen, it has. But in some ways, it's been the greatest gift. Yeah, I have to sit in the discomfort and the anguish of, you know, maybe being exiled alone, whatever it is, you know, for that moment. But what happened on the other side of that was, you know, I gained things far greater than what I lost, right? People, you said this earlier, I think myself disclosure
has become this filter. And it's like, if you're a fit for me, then who I am and what I share and how I'm being, it will not be too much, you know, will not merit cancelling or exiling, right? And so now the people who are in my life, like, they're meant to be, because I am being authentic and they are drawn to this authentic version of myself, right? And so that's what I've gained. The right clients, the right partners, the right lovers, the
right friends, the right opportunities, you know, all of that. And everything else can just kind of fall away. I'm, you know, it's okay that you aren't meant to be in my life, it's okay that that opportunity is not meant for me, it's okay that I'm not meant to work here. That's fine. You know, yeah. Nailed it. I want to share impact of that share because it really hit me in a really good
way. You're, there's one word that I sum up your share. It's like relatability. And that would, I would say that would be the biggest impact that you've had on me in this whole whatever four years that we've been doing this is I find there's a relatability. So whatever, however many episodes ago it was where you forgot what you were talking about, like mid-sentence,
it's like a great fear of mine. And I'm like, to see that you handled it and you just revealed that experience you disclosed it, it was like something happened with my inner critic. And it was like, because of my inner critics perfectionistic, right? It like doesn't want to get anything's wrong because it doesn't want to feel inadequate or like a failure. And what happens when I see people like revealing themselves is it's like, it makes them relatable.
And then it's like, it softens my inner critic. And it's like, okay, see, like because my inner critics, the young, it's a very young part inside me. And it's like, and it's like, okay, like we don't have to have it all together. Like we can be, we can fall apart. We can be messy. We can admit that we're wrong or that we're whatever. So yeah, I just, I appreciate you. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. I'm touched by that. And that word, I will carry that with me.
So important. Relateability. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was a great share. You know, again, like just like last one, I love everything you said. I want to just underline it and underscore it all. It was perfect. I was thinking as we're, as you were talking, this episode could easily be called coming out. Yeah. Cellar school is coming out, right? Like you had talked to Reno about coming out as gay,
then coming out as spiritual and coming out as all these things. And that's what it is. And if you think about it, coming out is that liberation that you talked about. It's like, ah, this thing is off my shoulders. I can, I can come out. I can talk about it. I can disclose this about myself. So think about all the ways that, you know, maybe you're not
out like all the ways like you need to maybe come out a little bit more. So this dropping the perfectionism thing, you're dropping the something about you that you feel like you, you want to come out and how good that maybe felt when you came out of the closet as gay or with whatever sexuality, sexual orientation you are, there's relief in that just as there can be relief in coming out in many other ways. So I just like that that is a very nice
tie-in. And anyone who's listening to this maybe who doesn't really know which self-disclosure means, think of the concept of coming up that that might really help you. I mean, I don't want to repeat everything you know said, but everything you're know said, that's been the biggest benefit. And how it positively impacted my life. I will say again, going back to men's groups and we do this in the GMV Zoom Hangouts on Thursdays. We see it
there every month. And then in my own men's groups, and I'm sure it in yours as well, when people come together and they share something doesn't have to be the whole thing, doesn't have to be the whole enchilada, even if you just share a little bit, which is what I recommend starting with. A, it feels good, it feels relief. You get the burden off you and other people get to see your humanity. Oh, yes, my humanity is showing. And that is a good thing because
there's that R word again, it makes you relatable. It makes you easier to connect with. Remember at the beginning, I said, when I didn't disclose much and I was very shy, people thought I was a loof and snobby. Those are not true. I not that I was just shy and scared or insecure. But as you say that, as you disclose some of that, this is how I'm feeling right now,
showing up in this group. It makes you relatable. The weight is lifted off you. And then all of a sudden, then you can all of a sudden start sharing a little bit more ease, leave it more authentically because you're not hiding behind that mask anymore. The mask has gone at least a little bit. So I will say that I have seen this happen in all of our sharing
circles over all the years we've done. And it's such a beautiful thing. I love seeing men, especially, gay men, especially do that drop the perfectionism a bit, drop the mask, say, listen, this is what I'm insecure. This is what I'm insecure about about my body. This is what happened to me in my in my ex. And this is what he told me. This is what the messaging I got from my parents was that I'm not good enough that I'm a, you
know, whatever that was. And everyone else gets to say, Oh, wow, like that's that must feel terrible. And also sometimes, Oh, me too, I'm not the only one. Oh, that's so nice to hear that I'm not the only one who had to go through that that I'm not the only one who experiences pain or shame or loss or grief or despair. Take your pick. And that is that common humanity. It's back to that thread of relatability. We're all in this together.
We may be very different, come very different backgrounds, but we have that emotional experience all the same. I have pain. You have pain. We all have pain. We all have insecurity. So I think that part of disclosure has posited positively impact, impacted my life personally, I have also seen that in facilitated that in other spaces as well. Yeah. Actually, one
more thing I want to add, sorry, Reno, I talked about abundance. And I would say the more I talk candidly about the things that I give a shit about that piss a lot of people off sex, spirituality, whatever money, it pisses a lot of people off. But guess what? Clients come rolling in. They're like, oh my god, Michael, I heard what you said about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I needed to hear that you're the guy you're the guy I want to work with.
Like all this stuff happens. And Reno, you had said it like it, it is actually abundant. And not just in a business sense, but even in a personal sense, right? It is that filter it truly is the best filter. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great segue into what I wanted to share. So thank you. And well said, you articulated that so beautifully. Yeah. The odd time, I would say like over the course of my career, maybe 10 times, people have written
on my work. Like, oh my god, why would you share that? This is stuff you share in therapy, not publicly. Like I get these comments. And I can understand where they're coming from, for sure. But what I would say is I would challenge that because I think that's an old paradigm. It's an old paradigm from like the 50s when it's like the nuclear family and sweep everything under the rug. Don't tell your neighbors that we have, you know, that dad's an alcoholic
and then like, all this crap, right? And it's like, I think we're breaking that. Our generation is breaking that paradigm of like, no, we don't want to be silent anymore. We don't want to hide in shame. And so I'm a huge proponent for self disclosure. And I think it's important.
I think it's important to like you said, it bridges the bridge between humans. It's like, ah, okay, I'm not actually flawed and broken and something wrong with me because I'm having thoughts of whatever suicide or these sorts of things like we need to be sharing these things so people can see that we're human, right? So yes, I love, I love that you said that. And then I wanted to share like a little mini story because for me, like the question
is, how is self disclosure positively impacted my life? So my last long term relationship, we both had a similar attachment style. We both were scared of certain aspects of intimacy and there was an incident that happened. We got into an argument and I started to notice my ego starting to come forward and like wanting to gaslight and wanting to like change perception and make him not like see that through this lens because you know, because it was
self preservation. I was in self preservation because I didn't want to be seen as scared or I didn't want to be seen as an adequate. So because I chose to hide this, it led to this giant mountain of conflict. Okay. So we went our separate ways, didn't talk for a couple days and in this time I like softened my ego softened. It came back down from hell hill and it was like, okay, I need to practice and this is when I also came forward and started doing authentic
relating. So I like, I got to reveal this. I have to own my ego and I have to reveal my ego. So I sat down, I did a lot of writing and I like wrote out all the things, all the little games, all the little things that my ego does to try and protect me from feeling scared, which is the main one or inadequate or shame or any things. And I started to like just really get clear about all the little games that my ego plays. I sat my partner down and I shared all of them.
And it was very scary for me because, but what it led to was it led to a great amount of intimacy and it led to my partner being able to support me when these things come up as opposed to being triggered by them. Say, you know, this young part or ego is usually very young. This young part in us is just trying to survive, trying to preserve or to feel safe. So can you talk to my
ego? Can you talk to my young inner child part when this is coming up? And I think that's the birthplace of a solid relationship is when you can bring forward your trauma, your ego, all these parts and let your partner into this world. And I'm telling you for myself, it really mitigated a lot of conflict being able to do that. So that was a big thing for me. So I would say the biggest thing that came out of that was greater intimacy and greater humility, obviously, on my part,
because it was really humbling to bring forth those parts of myself. So yeah, I've seen that be really beautiful in our community too. Like, yeah, sometimes people are up in the comments and stuff, you know, whether it's like usharing, you know, this, these conversations on YouTube or like a post in the community, yeah, occasionally you're going to get some like troll in the comments saying some bullshit. But also like, I've just seen our community be so supportive as well.
And when we share, like I put out a post the other day, you know, and it was somewhat vulnerable to share. And just a pouring of like love and support and like, ah, yeah, me too, I get this. I totally feel the same way you do. Thanks for sharing this. You know, it's remarkable. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I would say 95% of the comments that we get on YouTube are pretty positive for the most part. Yep. There's the 5% but hey, that's going to be on everything. And I think YouTube's
the worst for trolls. So if you're only if you're only hitting 5% on YouTube, you're doing pretty good. So yeah, keep the love coming folks. And if you want to give feedback, give it, give it with tact and grace, not like to tear people down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Any final thoughts from YouTube? I love this episode. This is one of my fate. I say that I've never seen it in every episode. Thank you. Every episode. Yeah. Probably, but it's just so good. I love it. We're going to do
a little montage of clips and Reno and every episode. This has been my favorite episode. But you always say it after when it's just the three of us together. So I'm glad you set it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I was like, that's my favorite episode. Yeah. It was. It was super juicy. And I want to just thank you to for sharing your wisdom and your vulnerability. Like, wow, like,
yeah, you really, I feel I feel let in and I feel also seen. So thank you. You too. I feel like this episode, what we've, what we've been up to here, what we've discussed is like, like you said, it's the essence of the gay men's brotherhood. It's the essence of gay men going deeper. Yeah. And it's like, it's like what brought us here as you shared at the beginning of that, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And I just want to point out that we have connection circles.
So come and practice this. So we come into a big group and then we offer questions or a little mini teaching and then we break off into groups of three and you can do what Reno and Michael and I do and you can share and and practice intimacy and vulnerability with your,
your fellow brothers. So come and join those. And then if that's not up your alley, then you can come the last Thursday of every month to our GMB zoom hang out, which is a sharing circle, not a connection circle, where we're still going to get connection, but it's more like the person, one person shares and reason listening and you're just kind of getting more relate ability, maybe then connection. So yeah, lots of opportunities for connection and relatability in our community.
So take advantage of that. If you're not in the Facebook group already, join us on Facebook at gay men's brotherhood. gaymen's brotherhood.com courses, all of our resources get on our email list there because people on our email list get first dibs for all of our opportunities. And if you're watching on YouTube, leave us a comment. We love getting your comments. We love
seeing what you're up to and hearing what you're up to. And if you are on listening on your favorite podcast platform, please leave us a rating, five stars preferably, and a review. We need reviews because reviews are really what pushes up in the standing. So people get, it gets into more ears of people that need this. So that's what we're all about. We get a lot of emails daily now of people being like, wow, your podcast has helped me so much. And you know,
it's transformed me. It actually was encouraged me to get into therapy or all these different things. So, you know, if you're pushing this forward, leaving a review, different things sharing the episodes, it really, it's helping not just us, it's helping other people in our community. And our main mission here at the brotherhood is to elevate the consciousness and the opportunity for meaningful connection in our community. So, one of my straight friends told me he listened to
our podcast and he's like, and he said it helped him too. It was really cool. That's awesome. Yeah, we're talking about life stuff, not just gay stuff. Like it's related to gay men specifically, but it's anybody could benefit from the stuff we're talking about. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll see you all next week. Much love.