Masc for Masc: Preference or Internalized Homophobia?

Welcome to Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood that showcases raw and real conversations about personal development, mental health, and sexuality from an unapologetically gay perspective. Today I'm your host. My name's Michael Diorio and joining me are Matt Lancidal and Reno Johnston. Hey. Today we are having a candid conversation about masculinity, attraction, and the fine line between personal preference

And internalized homophobia. What we want you to get out of this conversation is a better understanding of how attraction is actually shaped by conditioning, and to honestly reflect on the beliefs you carry about masculinity. and femininity. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what we're creating here, you can support the podcast by making a donation using the link in the show notes.

You could also tap on that thanks button if you're watching us on YouTube to show the podcast some love. All right. I wanna do a an intro before we jump into the topic today. Mm and this is about the topic of masculinity and internal islamophobia. So

I can acknowledge that attitudes are changing. Absolutely. And I think it's a great thing. However, it is still out there, this mask for mask. mentality, you might hear people say, I'm not into flamboyant gays or guys, or I'm only into masculine, muscular, manly men. This is very common in gay apps and in general in the gay vernacular. Sometimes if you're like me, you might question someone on it because I get kind of curious when I hear things like that.

And they'll say something like, I can't help what I'm attracted to. But it raises a bigger question. When a gay man says he prefers masculine men, is that simply attraction? Or is there something deeper going on? So I'll be transparent right from the start for myself, because I'm sure a lot of y'all listening have talked to me on apps and seen me out there. I am attracted to masculine presenting men myself. And I am a masculine presenting man myself.

And that's been true since the first moment I felt same-sex attraction. I've always been into masculine presenting men. And so this episode is not about pretending that attraction doesn't exist or even trying to police. who people are drawn to because yes, attraction is personal and we don't consciously choose what arouses us.

Nevertheless, you cannot deny the impact of culture and social conditioning on what we value, on what we consider attractive. And this is regardless of sexual orientation. Now, when you step back specifically in looking at gay culture, specifically. An interesting pattern emerges even today. And that's masculinity is not just attractive, it is status.

It is admired, it is respected, and it is still, even to this day, positioned as the quote unquote ideal version of gayness. Now, this isn't spoken directly, perhaps, but it is subtly out there for all to see. And on the flip side of that is femininity can sometimes be seen as something people want to distance themselves from.

So there's maybe a hesitation to have expressive mannerisms or to flail or flare or have a way of speaking that might be perceived as feminine, or perhaps we quietly judge the guy wearing nail polish. Or perhaps you cringe when you hear people who sound gay, which brings us to a term that gets thrown around a lot in having these kinds of conversations about masculinity and femininity internalized homophobia.

Internalized homophobia does not necessarily mean that you hate gay people. Most of us don't consciously feel that way anyway. It's not a conscious feeling or thought like that. What it means is that the messages that we have absorbed growing up about masculinity, about femininity, about what it means to be a man, about what it means to act like a man can and do influence

How we want others to see us and how we see other men. And sometimes it sounds like I'm gay, but I'm not a flamer like those gay. Or it might be placing a higher value on guys who look and sound straight passing. And then sometimes it hides behind that word preference. And so today we're unpacking all of this. There's a lot here to unpack, and I'm really happy we're finally having this discussion.

We're gonna tackle this in three parts. One, I wanna first define what we mean when we talk about masculinity. What exactly are we talking about? Once we cover that, then I want to look into how Internalized homophobia actually shows up in the real world. And finally, we're going to answer the big question in the title. Where is that line actually between preference and internalized homophobia?

I want to normalize it here before we begin, because if you grew up in a world where being gay was stigmatized, and I assume most of us did, it's called Earth, it would actually be strange not to carry some kind of internalized homophobia. Okay, so we've got to normalize it right from the jump. This is not a personal failure. It is a predictable byproduct of growing up gay in a straight world. Our jobs are simply to acknowledge it, see it, and course correct when it happens. Okay. This topic

can therefore make people feel very defensive or uncomfortable. So if you're listening and your back is already up against the wall, good. Stay tuned. That's a good thing. It usually means that we're touching on things that perhaps you've been avoiding. maybe consciously or unconsciously, and just remember to always approach that defensiveness with curiosity. We are not here to shame you or to even try to change who or what you're attracted to.

We're simply here to better understand the cultural forces that shape attraction. Okay, let's get started with question one. And today we're going to start with Maddie. When you say you're attracted to masculine men, what does

masculine even mean to you? What what qualities are we actually referring to here? And I am. I am attracted to masculine men. That is my that's my thing. That's my hang up. I uh it's uh you know, growing up in a in a home and within my family, both my families had like blue collar masculine men, like worked with their hands. So I was very much exposed to that and I feel like masculinity for me is like

Strong. It's uh, you know, and I kind of see it in hands, like strong hands. A guy that has strong hands is really masculine. I probably would say like maybe a little bit more rigid body movements, not not flowy, but a little bit more rigid, uh kind of stoic.

in their expression mm masculinity. It's like the number one thing I'm attract I'm attracted to, so it's so easy for me to kind of tune into this energy and and feel I would say one of the bigger ones would probably be voice, like a deeper voice, body hair. Yeah, I think body hair that's another reason again why I think I'm attracted to guys that are more masculine presenting because I really love body hair. I think it's

It's very attractive. Hmm. Yeah. I think again a lot of it comes down to mannerisms as well, I would say, too, like the way that they walk. There's like a

A certain way that a guy would walk that would I would frame him in different levels of masculinity, you know. And I always tell the story on this podcast about being like thirteen, fourteen years old, walking in front of my friend my friend a group of girlfriends and they're like one of them said, Look at how Matt's bum wiggles when he walks or look how his hips sway when he walks and I was like oh shit so I started like correcting my walk.

Right. And then over the course of my life I ended up developing lower back issues and hip issues because I wasn't letting my body do what it naturally wants to do. So yeah. Yeah, it's fascinating. Example. And you know what, Matt? Uh when you read the comments of the podcast a lot of the times people will often say that they they they love that, like your deep voice and so like they will actually say that about you, that you're very masculine is a good thing. So

Uh I'm really happy to be having this conversation with both of you today for for for a lot of these reasons. Reno, what about you? Are you even attracted to masculine men? I don't even know. Yeah. Um I'm a bit of an enigma. I I I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna read what I wrote and then I'm gonna kinda riff on it a bit. But I I because it's kind of specific, I don't I don't say that I'm attracted to masculine men so much as I'm attracted to

male bodied folks, which include uh but are not limited to masculine men. And so that's kind of the way that works for me. And I I discovered that because what I started to notice was that when I was exploring with men, when I started exploring with men, one of the things I did notice is that I did have I did find myself gravitating toward like certain archetypes. with certain qualities or characteristics. And they did tend to, let's say, have deeper voices or

be limited in their expression, for example. They did tend to appear outwardly to be physically strong and enduring. They did tend to uh be individuals who like led the experience, right? Which allowed me to follow or to be a bit more submissive. What I started to notice over time though. Was that the people that I was attracted to and I would say it's no coincidence that this maybe coincided with my own Mm.

my self love journey, I guess, self self love, self regard, self-respect, self-reclamation journey. that I just started appreciating people who were like themselves, basically. Like people who stood on who they were with what felt like uh

like nobility who didn't really like sway in who they were and how they held themselves. There was kind of this like uprightness about them. And that could be like, I remember Um, I had a fling with a drag queen, you know, and like one of the strongest people I know. you know, one of the most confident people I know, you know, could probably kick your ass, right? Like which I and it was just like it was sexy. But then also like there was a softness and a femininity

about this person, if you will. If it you know, and it's funny because I even caught myself just now equating softness with femininity. And like that's why I'm so interested in this particular conversation. is because like what does femininity mean to begin with? What does masculinity mean to begin with? And like where do these ideas come from? Where did they start? You know, what maintains them?

um and reinforces them and how do they help and also hinder us, right? So yeah. The other thing I guess I will name is that

prior to beginning to dissect some of this. Yeah, for me, I looked at masculinity as someone who was masculine, a masculine man, as someone who had a deep voice. Who was stoic, who was a provider and a protector, who created a sense of safety, who embodied and uh or at least appeared to be physically strong and enduring, someone with limited emotionality and expression or nonchalance, someone with a bit of a hardness.

And usually someone with body hair as well. Yeah. Matt mentioned that one. Not always, not always, but definitely, you know. And and and if there if there wasn't body I was gonna say if there wasn't body hair there, then usually there was some sort of like large physical stature, if you will. And so yeah, definitely those are some of the things I... n uh the the the the labels, the the qualities of masculinity that I

that I used to look for and still it still shows itself, but I'm sure we'll get into that a bit more because it's such a nuanced conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And that's exactly it. I'm so happy you talked about two things. One is the reason why I wanted to start with this question is

first to exactly demystify what this word means, what we're actually talking about. So I think people use the word masculinity, myself included, as a short form for like a cluster of traits that we find attractive. And you guys named pretty much all the ones that I had on here as well.

The only thing I would add on there was like a decisiveness and a confidence. But it's just like a it's a one word that we all know because it's it is a the second word you had used, Reno, was uh archetype. It is an archetype and archetypes are universal.

to the human experience because they've been around for thousands of years in every religion and every culture. Um, masculinity is one of those ones that is just one word, but it just means so much. And I think it's really important to all of us out there. And I encourage the the listener and viewer to do the same. Think about what those traits actually are. Because if we start actually using those words instead of the word masculine or feminine, then we can get a lot further.

And can I if I may say one more thing, because this feels important to note as we draw out nuance, there are feminine people who, you know, and again, like let's dissect that word, right? And what it means at some point, but like There are people who we might define as archetypically feminine who also provide will also protect, we'll also create a sense of safety, will also embody physical strength and endurance. Right. And so like when we s when we start to look at that

who also have body hair even, you know. So when we start to look at that, it kind of you know, it kinda turns things on on their head a little bit. And again points to some of that nuance and it can be a bit of a a mind screw. Um And I think for the sake of this conversation and I don't know, for the sake of our personal freedom and and connectivity, that's a good thing, you know? Yeah. To be scratching your head, to be feeling challenged by a conversation like this.

Yeah. And I think it is a good thing that all these things are getting kind of flipped on their head, like I said, and and the attitude is changing. But th you know, in like what, ten, twenty, even thirty years of attitudes changing, archetypes are thousands of years. They're going they're going back like this archetype of of a man.

And what the man what it means like provider, safety, protection. You you can't argue with archetypes. And so many people will say to me, Oh yeah, but that's such antiquated thinking. I'm like, yeah, I get it, it is, but also it's thousands of years old. And we have to understand what we inherit. That's really, really important. Masculinity is not

something that gay men reward in our culture. Gay men didn't invent that in the hierarchy. We inherited it from the world. Where this is the case everywhere. And we have our own unique flavor of it, which we'll get to with internalized homophobia. But I think it's really important that we start with this just to understand the landscape in which we have. Showed up. Beautiful word too, inheritance. I love that.

I have a point I wanna make or maybe a question actually. Are we talking about masculinity and being a man as the same thing? Uh In in the archetypal sense, then yes. In the archetypal sense, like being a man and and what that means and what think of all the stories and and all of the religious text.

Uh like everything that just comes from that archetype of the man, provider, safety, protector, you know, at the very core, amongst everything else, taking initiative, being decisive of all the things that all the things that we had said.

Yeah. I think a lot of men derive their sense of manness from masculinity and I think a lot of women derive their womanness from a sense of femininity. And I think the binary is actually very important to have, but I think that's where we've we maybe need to work on is having can can there be a feminine or sorry, a a woman who's masculine and can there be a man who's feminine and can there be a one that's blended in both?

And I think that's what is really coming up a lot right now in the gender conversations, especially around like trans people and these sorts of things. I think it's it's important to have that. But I actually really do think it's important to have masculinity and femininity. It's just can we actually broaden

the c our ability to pull from each of these pools and say, I'm a man, but I'm gonna pull from the feminine pool too. And and same with you know women pulling from the masculine pool, which I think we're starting to see happening on the planet. But uh I actually think it is healthy to have masculine and feminine and have a binary that we can look at and say this is a spectrum that we are are wanting to to look at as w whether we want to call it archetypes or um

And how identity identity and attraction weaves into that conversation. And I think and again, like I'm just gonna name I'm I'm not I no way, shape or form am I an expert and so I'm okay with getting some of this wrong. There are some distinctions as well that I think are important, like the distinction between sex and gender. Because if I if I'm not mistaken, I think I think sex has to do with biology. and physicality. Whereas gender

is something that is societally created and assigned, right? Gender gender is a thought or an idea that is upheld by society and so too is masculinity and femininity. And so too are archetypes. Right. Um and and again, that's not me saying there aren't a place for all of those things and room for all of them. But yeah, there are distinctions, right? Like j I was born in a male bot. Right. Like biologically. Now everything else that comes with that.

is more or less made up, you know what I mean? Right. Like I have hair, we make that mean I have hair on my face, we make that mean something. I have a penis, we make that mean something, right? Like we make all of this mean something. And where does that come from, right? But ultimately, my flesh is just slightly different than someone else's and yeah. So anyway, nuance, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Okay, let's get into the internalized homophobia a bit, because that's important. But first, uh want to hear from the audience.

What does it mean to you? If someone is attracted to masculinity, if you are attracted to masculinity, what traits are you referring to? What what traits come up for you? What are some of those archetypal words that come up for you?

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Let's get into the good stuff here. So what does internalized homophobia actually look and sound like in everyday life? What are some of those subtle ways that it shows up when we're when we're talking about ourselves with other men? Shame. Sounds like shame. I think some people might have a hard time wrapping their head around because we've had an episode where in the comments of that episode on YouTube were like

This is not homophobia. This is not homophobia. People were so adamant about me relating rejection of femininity to homophobia, and I can understand,'cause it's not directly Yeah. It's indirectly correlated, right? So I would say internalized femme phobia might be an easier way for people to get their head around. What we're talking about. But, you know, you've already listed off quite a few of them. It's like, you know, if a guy if we see s if we see in somebody else

traits that we feel are not okay with being gay. It's like all the split parts. It's like that's I don't like those things about being gay. So we put those in a little jar and put a lid on it and throw it over there, right? But these are still parts of ourselves, right? We No, s a good example w is, you know, m the way we talk. Right? If a guy sounds gay, right, then there's gonna likely be something in us that it's like that's uh

That's not okay, right? Or an internalized phemphobia or internalized homophobia for me would be me changing my hips when I was walking. It's like I can't look gay. I can't let people know that this is who I am, right? So yeah, I would say it's a it's a rejection of self.

through shame and then we're judging ourselves, right? And then that ends up getting projected out into the greater world and we we judge other people. We judge people that appear gay or appear feminine. Um And I actually think this is why a a lot of I'm not just gonna put this on straight men, there's a lot of gay men that are like this too, when they see a s a feminine guy or a guy in drag or different things like that, it's so triggering for them.

Because it's like this is a part of them that they have rejected, right? They rejected the the parts of them that you know, maybe you dressed up like a a girl when you were a kid and y it felt good, right? And you were straight or whatever, it doesn't matter, but these parts of us are so conditioned to be repressed. That when we see somebody else embodying it it can be very activating. said. Yeah. I think the word homophobia for obviously for us gay men has a lot of

warning in it and we were like, I'm not that. Oh my gosh, that was the guy who bullied me. I there's no way I have that in me. And so I get I love that you had used maybe a different word to kind of soften the approach because Yeah, it it homophobia doesn't mean like a hatred of gays, like you d again, it's not conscious. It's more a subtle rejection of maybe traits or aspects that might be

gay related within other and even within ourselves. So that's why it's important to have this this conversation. Yeah. And most of those things, if you think about them, they're all related to femininity or weakness. We're vulnerable, right? It's all it's all gonna come under those categories. Yeah. Reno, what about you? What what does it look like in everyday gay life? The breakdown again, right? So, okay, homosexual okay, so homophobia, right, would be would be as I understand it.

uh a fear or aversion to homosexuality. Homosexuality is, again, in my understanding, I have to look it up, but a sexual preference or attraction to males, right? So I often make a distinction between being gay and being homosexual because my the way I see it is that being gay and being homosexual, they kind of include and transcend each other. Like in the same way that you can be um a male and not be quote unquote masculine. I think you can be a homosexual and not be quote unquote gay, right?

the way I look at being gay is that it is sort of they're they're like characteristics, their qualities that are attributed to homosexual men. So that that Again, this is just me and my own perspective and my own sort of limited understanding of things. And so first and foremost, I would say internalized homophobia to me looks like the fear of and the manifestation of the fear of being attracted, sexually and physically attracted.

Two men, right? And so immediately you notice that in anyone who's unwilling to admit to that, to cop to that. to embrace that and to meet that. And I mean I've seen that across the board. Like I s I've seen it in I've seen it But I've also seen it in men who identify as straight. I I and I've and I've seen it I've seen it quite a bit actually in men who identify as straight. And that that is always interesting to me.

those conversations that I've had with some of these men who who are actually physically and sexually attracted to men, but they're like, No bro, I ain't I ain't gay though, you know? Like no homo. It just I just like You know, I just like deck, right? And I'm like, well, like whatever you want to call it, like you just said it, right? And and like if you want to get into it, we can. But yeah, I would say that.

another example of homophobia in in everyday life and and not gay life specifically. I'm trying to think about my answer to this question as well, because you said gay life specifically. And I would say going back to what Matt said, and I remember we did an episode where Matt actually spoke to this and I I thought it was a really interesting introduction to the conversation. And it was around the relationship between like um

And there's that word. And femininity. We always crack up because of how that word sounds. I I can't help myself. But the relationship between gayness or being gay and femininity, because there are

there are in fact connections between the two. And this is something worth looking at, right? So we can also discuss patriarchy, right? We can discuss patriarchy and how So by definition, a system of society or government in which the father or eldest male is head of the family and descent is traced through the male line. Right. Also a system or society of government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it, or society or community organized on patriarchal lines, right?

And so when you start to look at that and you start to look at the ways in which power is defined and who holds the power and the qualities and characteristics attributed to and assigned to people who hold the power. you start to understand why femininity is something to be feared, why gayness, again that word, is something to be feared, right? Or or to shy away from.

and why there would be any sort of phobia around embodying or honoring any of these qualities within each of us or within society, because to own them, claim them and acknowledge them means that you are essentially relinquishing power, safety, status like anything um that that uh s essentially upholds your place in in society. You are you are in essence saying I'm choosing to be exiled because I am choosing to be myself. Yeah. Or in an empowered way I'm willing to change what I value. Right.

Like and I think that's what it comes down to. Our society values certain things. We value strength over weakness. We view men as stronger than women. So right, we value men more because they're stronger. Like these sorts of things. It's like and I know there's a lot of It's a generalization'cause there's a lot of women that could probably be s stronger than a lot of men, but this is what I'm like what we've learned to value is what we end up being drawn towards and Put English.

Pedestal. Yeah. And and you can also I mean, pay attention to how individuals interact with other individuals embodying qualities of a gay person or a homosexual. And and if you notice that they are treating them inhumanely or you notice that they seem to have issues engaging and interacting with them.

There's some of your first signs that there may be homophobia and the and this may internalized homophobia. And this may be you. You know, you may be the person that you're looking at. You know. And the the the last thing I I'll say as um, as I answer this question, is I think the beautiful thing about the gay men's brotherhood and this podcast.

and some of the other communities that I'm a part of, whether it's the Radical Fairies or even the Body Electric School community, but the Health Initiative for Men community, is that I've seen these communities and these cultures bring out some of the best parts of gay people, of homosexuals. And so I think that's worth noting that environmentally and culturally there's spaces that start to shift. how we relate to ideas and archetypes, right? Masculinity and

gayness and do do do do do right. So I just I I I want to name that because what I notice is those ideas start to fade and shed when you get into a space like this. And you're just meeting people as they are and really connecting with them on a soul level beyond identity. Yeah. And I think when you're also around to those other folks, you will notice where you have perhaps some of your own internalized homophobia, just in the thoughts you carry or the way you judge or what you judge on.

'cause you know, internalized homophobia is not as directly as a I reject being gay and I reject gay people. Hardly ever that overt. It's usually something like where they judge or reject certain ways of being gay or certain aspects of it. That's the part to that to me is the interesting nuance, which we'll get to in the next question. But it's not like I hate gay people. I've rarely heard people say that. But I have a very good friend of mine who has some

significant internalized homophobia. And we clock him on it all the time. We're like, hey, you're doing it again. Like this this is it. And he's just like, what? I don't get it. And so, you know, it's it's top of mind for us. But there like he's not saying I don't like gay people. What he's saying is I want to distance myself from that part of gayness because I don't like those.

types of expressions of gayness, or I'm not like them, or or that makes me cringe. And I just prefer. There's that word, prefer. I just prefer this. And so what we call preference is really just distance from stigma. And I get it. I get it. We don't want to be stigmatized. We we stigmatize ourselves. Great way of saying that. Distance from stigma. I love that. Thank you. I'm taking that with me.

I think that's what it is for a lot of folks. And when we look at it from that way, it's like, Okay, then yes, now I see it. Like now I see why the areas of gayness that I wanna distance myself from because I'm not like that, so I don't wanna be part of it. And that's that's that's the um

That's the the interesting part. It's notice for yourself where you are perhaps embarrassed with other gay people or when you see gay people doing their thing, like what part of you feels shame or embarrassment. Is it the flamboyant? The voice and the mannerisms, is it the way they act? Is it what they're saying? Equally notice when you feel relieved, when people say things like, Oh, you don't seem gay. Like what is your is it relief?

Is it a badge of honor you wear? Like, oh yay, I'm I'm the good kind of gay, right? That was me for sure. Cause when I first came out, it was I I've said this before. I was like, okay, I'm gonna come out, but I'm gonna do it in the most palatable way possible. Which for me meant presenting as masculine and all the things. And so

I liked it when people said that to me. I thought that I was winning. I'm like, yeah, cool. I can be gay and I was out. And if someone said to me at that time that's internalized homophobia, I'd be like, absolutely not. Look, I'm out of pride. I'm a pri I'm a pride. How can I be homophobic? But that's just it. As soon as that flamboyance

or or or femininity or anything that we would c put in that bucket of femininity, as soon as you see those as embarrassing or less than, that reveals your hierarchy. Yeah. Yeah, I like the what what did you say distance from stigma? For me it would be I like that, but I like also distance from stereotype because I see myself as very different from mainstream gay culture.

And that for me I always thought I'm like maybe I am maybe this is homophobia or internalized stuff, but it's actually not. It's just showing me misalignment. Like I'm I'd uh and where I feel uncomfortable is guys like on floats at parades with their G strings on.

Like that sort of thing. Like that for me it's not it's I have n it has nothing to do with me having shame or or hating gay people or anything like that. It's just like this that's just not me. So I like the term distance from stereotype because I don't I actually think it's kind of

for me, it would be unhealthy to just look at this is what it means to be a gay man from this from the mainstream perspective and then take that on and try and become that as a way to fit in. And I see that. I see that a lot with gay men. It's like I don't I think a lot of us have

develop uh developmental delay in our sense of self development. So we come into the gay community, the gay culture and we're like, okay, so this is what I have to be to fit in and we just grab onto these things and we just become this. Right. And that for me is where I really struggle with gay culture is it's like um I don't feel like I I fit in that. And I think a lot of um gay men would probably say the same thing. It's like I don't wanna actually be part of that because it doesn't

It doesn't uh celebrate who I am. So that's just interesting.

out myself a little bit here. So I grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba. And then I spent about five and a half years in r rural Manitoba. So like I'm a bit of a country boy, prairie kid. Um and and and also like also a city boy. I would say like I contain multitudes. And so what's so interesting about my journey is that when I came out, like I remember the year I came out, I'm on a float in you know Yeah, it just gone.

Basically, basically, basically. They gave me the outfit. I was like, oh wow, okay. This is what I'm wearing. And I just threw it on and I was living it up. Now, somewhere down the line, I start looking at all of that and I start scrutinizing it and I start to notice that I'm I'm kind of and and and when I say all of that, I don't mean all of it, but there were just

And even to this day, and again, this is where I'm outing myself, there are certain events I'll show up to. And they're events that are really sexually forward, right? And I'm talking like I've seen people sitting on like where are those things called? Are pylons? Are they? Like those orange pylons? Like I've been to events where people are sitting on like orange pylons. Like it's you know, it's pretty wild. Like just stuff like that, right? Like I've seen some things and

certainly they've made me like curious, intrigued, they've made me scratch my head. And in some cases they've even created a sense of disgust or judgment. Right. And this is where I'm outing myself because what What replace that with in those moments is curiosity. And so, you know, my invitation would be to notice where you're observing something and your initial reaction is judgment, disgust.

And sort of like stigmatizing or othering and to l and and to look at that as perhaps a sign that there is some sort of phobia there, right? Because I would say that's almost the distinction. between preference and phobia, right? Like I can have a preference. Um without without experiencing disgust, without experiencing othering, etcetera.

And what I've noticed is that as I've been able to do that work, there's less of a charge there, if any at all. Um, and and thus no no sort of phobia. It's more just like, yeah, that's cool. Like, yeah, that that looks that looks fun for you. It's not it's not my thing, you know, but it that looks fun.

You know. The other thing I wanna name too is to notice when you find yourself kind of making sweeping statements about a particular group. Um, and that is often a sign that you are engaged in some sort of like phobic activity. And again, that's where your work may lie. And I say that as someone who's experienced it. I've had my moments where I'm like, oh

the gay community, I just can't, you know, because whatever, whatever, whatever. Right? It's like, okay, well, is it I catch myself, I'm like, is it the gay community?'Cause You know, like you seem to be cool with this person and this person and you really like this space and you really like that space. So is it a gay thing or is it uh this thing? Like, you know, break it down.

Right. I'm not into black people, right? That's another one, right? And it's like it's like, okay, well so what like all black people? Like what like what do you mean? And where have you been? What black people are you talking about? You know what I mean? And like can you be sure? That that's true? Have you met all of them? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Great segue.'Cause that's what we're going to be talking about in the next segment. But yeah, I love that. Okay. For our audience.

out there. A lot of the patterns that we've been talking about here today, things like attraction, identity, understanding yourself, community, the gay community at large. These are the kinds of things that we explore in our coaching collection, the Gay Band Going Deeper coaching collection. We have an entire pathway on community specifically, but also three other pathways on confidence, body positivity, and relationship.

Uh you can explore this at your own pace, and there are two other courses in there, healing your shame and building better relationships, and you have lifetime access to these. once you have access to the coaching collection. So go to Gamengoingdeeper dot com to get access to that. Okay. So let's continue with the big question. The whole point of this episode

The name of the episode, the big question we came here that Reno so nicely got us started on, where is that line between having genuine preference, which we all have, and then internalized homophobia? Matt? Such a blurry it's a blurry space because one is rooted in shame and one is rooted in desire. But as we heal shame desire changes, right? So it's a fine line. Where are you in your journey of sexual maturation, personal development?

Healing your own trauma and your own shame wounding, healing internalized homophobia, where are you on that journey? Because that line is gonna be very different for different people. So yeah, I guess for myself, you know, I used to again like really reject femininity, like drag queens or feminine men, like stuff like that. I would just be like, ugh, right? And that is like

Runa was saying, it's rooted in judgment. And whenever judgment is at play, then it means there's shame, right? Shame what we judge in others is the sh unhealed shame within ourselves. It's always the case. There's a huge correlation between those two things. And when judgment starts to transit into

Curiosity is when I think things start to shift and we are able to say, Yeah, you know, like I prefer masculine men, but I I love feminine men too. Like, right? Like there's no triggering, there's no activation. And uh for some people as they heal those parts of themselves maybe

feminine men become more attractive'cause they've integrated the parts of themselves that they right. But I d I don't think that has to be a prerequisite because I know for myself, like I just I'm very drawn to masculine men and it's it's just a big part of my erotic template

And I've done a lot of deep healing around integrating my feminine and I actually in a in a connection I actually want to be more in that feminine energy and be with a guy who is can can contain that feminine energy in me and hold that, right? So I know for me I need to be with

masculine energy, masculine presenting men, because there's just something about that that that really lights me up. That's the best way I can answer it. Honestly, it's a hard thing to answer. It's like there'cause it is a very gray area, but yeah, that's all I got for you guys.

I think that the way that you had described it in yourself, I think that helps. Uh'cause it's very relatable. I I could very much say the same thing. You and I matter very similar in that way. Um and you're right. A as I healed my own shame.

uh around all the shame that I had and we all we all have shame. That's when all of a sudden all my attraction just started to widen a bit. Like I just became less judgmental in general. And as that judgment comes down, all of a sudden it's this birthplace of oh

I didn't realize I might like be a little bit attracted to these kinds of people and these kinds of things. And it's just this beautiful thing where then you then then preference can live without the judgment. And and we all have preference. We all have attraction. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that.

A big defensiveness I I hear on this topic is people say, well, you you're trying to change what I'm attracted to. And I'm like, no, we you can't do that. That's not what this is about. It's about understanding why it's there and what and and what's causing it. And also to answer the question a little bit is is for the things that you're not attracted to, how do you what's your relationship with that? Is it met with contempt, judgment, and shame? Or like Reno had said, good for you.

Yeah. I wanna say one thing before you s before you share we know. So I've actually the the the my attraction integrated in the other direction as well because

I used to be really attracted to performative masculine men. Like the the extra stoic. They wouldn't even laugh or or be playful, these sorts of things. I used to be really drawn to that. And that to me is like it's a trauma response. They're they're hiding behind their masculinity. It's performative because they're terrified of showing anything feminine. I used to be really drawn to men like this.

And I used to be that man. So I integrated those parts of myself and now I'm I feel more free to be more my playful, silly, you know, like flowy self and and so I'm no longer attracted to those guys in the same way that I was before. So it's my my attraction has swung this way a little bit in the sense of I want a man who's still masculine presenting, but he's not performing it. He's not

guarding with his masculinity, he's free, but he just is organically masculine, right? That's his his natural presentation when he's in a softened and ease you know, a state of ease in his nervous system. So I just think it's important to note that because I realized in myself I used to be so stoic and so rigid in my body and these sorts of things'cause I was guarding with my own masculinity, right? Which is probably why people get triggered with by this topic.

is because that part of them, the part that guards with their m with their with their masculinity, is being challenged. And if you want to see that live in action, go to the internalized homophobia episode on YouTube and go into the comment section and you will see what I'm talking about, how people get so defensive around this topic.

I need to go luck. Oh gosh. That's gonna be so fun. To be so fun. Well, it's so interesting too because like I think about the freedom I feel, like physiologically, emotionally, like just in my being, the freedom I feel. uh when I when I started to like embrace and embody the multitudes that I contain, you know? It's like it's like I can like

chop wood and lift heavy shit and like build stuff, right? And also get a fucking manicure, you know, and like my runway walk is on point, you know, like I can walk in a pair of heels and dance in a pair of heels better than like a lot of women, to be honest, you know. Whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like whatever. And it took time to get to that place. And that's why I love Matt. I love what you said.

I had to write it down, you were like as you heal your shame, your desire evolves. And I think like as you as you heal your shame, like you you evolve too. I've come to embrace like the the multitudes that I contain. And as a result I've come to embrace the multitudes that like w the world contains, you know, which is why I can break bread with someone who doesn't share my beliefs, for example, or who doesn't identify the same way I do, because I'm like, well

You're not my enemy, you know. We just aren't like we're just we're different. And actually fundamentally and universally, we're probably the same. The line between genuine preference and internalized homophobia, I would just say like look at where you are experiencing charge in relationships. to something, anything, another, um, in in this case. And and meet that with curiosity. Because it's like um

I'll give you an example. I'm trying to think of a food example here, but it's like it's like, do I have any sort of charge wrapped up in the fact that like I prefer whole grain bread to sourdough, right? Like is that my God. You know, is anybody getting all up you know, up in arms about that. Like am I getting up at no, there's this I'm just not really into sourdough and I'm into right. But if there's any sort of charge or judgment or

story attached to whatever your preference is. And again, I didn't even know this, but go look at the comments, right? Like if all of that's coming up, it's like there's your work. Hate to say it. There's your work. But but look at that. And and you'll you'll find that that's sort of fine line, if you will, between um preference and phobia, i.e. fear, insecurity, shame, whatever you want to call it.

Right. So that that's where that's where I would start to look. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then the other thing is look at how and I know this is gonna seem kinda out there maybe, but if you pay attention to how you treat different people based on what you think you can get from them or what you think they provide. There's something in there as well because I noticed.

that this comes back to the whole conversation about like society and societal stance and positioning, et cetera. So again, we tend to treat people differently when we value them in a particular way. And we often value them based on how we've been conditioned to hold value and hold as valuable. And so if you start to look at that, you will also start to see where some of your phobias lie.

Yeah. Well said. Uh I think I think you nailed the line because you know two things that I want to add to this is is the line, which I would agree is exactly what you had said there. And I love the example of food. Um I think it makes it so much more understandable. We can look at food, is it like

I For example, to use your your food analogy, I don't like pineapple on pizza. Now, to me, like it's just not something I would ever do. Uh like I'm Italian, it's just sacrilegious in in the world that I grew up in. Now, if you, Rito or Matt, want to put pineapple on your pizza and I come over your house and you make a pizza and it's loaded with pineapple, I'm not gonna be like, oh my God, you are

A terrible human, uh, you don't know what the fuck you're doing, you're stupid, you're ignorant. Like, I'd be like, okay, let's try it. Let's, let's, let's try this thing. Would I have that? Personal preference?

No, because my personal preference is not to put a pineapple on a pizza. So I love that you had used that, Reno, because it kinda takes the sting and and the heaviness out of this conversation, but it's exactly like that. Preference is just what you're naturally drawn to and we all have it. Internalized homophobia. shows up in again, how you think and feel about the things that you're not drawn to. So, you know, I

And as I said from the jump, I'm attracted to masculine energy. I'm attracted to those traits that we talked about in the beginning. But I have no contempt at all for people who don't present that way. Um I don't I'm not around being like, oh fam guys are so annoying and they're embarrassing and they're ugly. Like that's not what I'm saying. I'm just like

They do them and they're wonderful humans and I love and respect them equally, but it's not just not what I'm doing. And there's that word respect. I think that's it. When you can respect everyone equally, regardless of their preference, that's what we're aiming for.

But when you all of a sudden have a hierarchy and you're valuing these ones and dismissing these ones, that is where the internalized homophobia is and that's where the work is. So if masculinity is the only version of gayness, that you like and that you respect.

And that are that they're allowed to have their they can be proud of who they are, but they can't wear they can't wear these kinds of clothes, that's where you got a problem. You gotta respect all of the beautiful rainbow of expression of of homosexuality. And if you can't, then that's that's your work. Yeah.

Yeah, I like that. And there's attraction templates. Everyone has a different attraction template. I think in as gay people we think that everyone's attracted to masculine energy, but I think there's a lot of guys out there that are Right. Like others on even on Grinder it's like Femme only, trans only. Like I see all these things now. It's like everyone has their own right. So let like

Yeah. Hierarchy and value. So there's there's that line there, like where you notice that hierarchy and where you notice that value. You could have your own personal preferences, but what do you like who deserves your respect or who has earned that versus who you kinda dismiss and say, Oh those that's not Had a guy over yesterday, still lit a candle, you know, was still kind to him. Wasn't it he c he came in, I wasn't attracted to him, I was like, come hang out.

Still lit a candle. We sat in my bed. We chatted briefly, you know, super kind to the guy. He's like wow, this is the first time I felt relaxed all day. I was like, Yeah, that happens in my space, right? I said to him, you know, kindly like I'm I'm not into this, right? But like and it's not you, it's not a you thing. You're beautiful, etcetera. But we had this really beautiful experience and he was just shocked. He's like most people are just like, ugh and they walk away.

Like no, why would I do that? Yeah. So the respect the the respect thing. It's yeah. Yeah, you could be attracted to whatever it is you're attracted to, masculinity, femininity, doesn't matter, whatever it is, without believing that that thing is superior just because you're attracted to it. Yeah, exactly. I've been doing a little test with myself on Grinder. I am like when I'm scrolling'cause I would catch myself in like unconsciousness and be like oh like oh like just so much judgment, right?

And uh so now I'm like trying to change that and I'm like as I'm going through, I'm like, Okay, yeah, like you know and I I'm like leading with like it's not judgment, it's I don't feel like I'm better or worse. It's just like a curiosity, like, okay, yeah, what must this person be experiencing in their life that they

are showing up like this or that or whatever. I'm trying my best. It's like one of the hardest things to do. Like I encourage everybody to try that if you're single or whatever, you're on Grinder. Like any a dating app for that reason, like slow it down a little and really try to just be curious and not be judgmental. It is very, very difficult to do. This is huge work. Huge work. Put yourself in places where you're othering Yeah.

And then and then be there and like you said, slow down, regulate, get curious. Some of the best fucking shadow work you can do. Totally. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. And the goal of this is not to change or police and and make you be attracted to something you're not. That's not the point. You're missing you're missing what we're saying here. The point is to just notice what comes up for you and and find

That yes, you can't have a preference that does not is not someone else's and still find respect and not and not again feel superior or put the other one down. That's the Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, any last words guys? No, this was juicy. I feel like we could keep going, you know, but God We touched on a lot as well. Oh we did. Okay, thank you boys for your insight, wisdom, and experience as always. I appreciate you. Thank you to our listeners and viewers for joining us on this.

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