Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast series by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health, and sexuality. I am your host, Matt Lancidall. I am a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. My areas of expertise are teaching people how to heal toxic shame and attachment trauma so they can embody their authentic self and enjoy more meaningful connections in their lives.
I specialize in working with highly sensitive people, and paths and gay men to develop a stronger sense of self-worth. Today's topic is Healing with Plant Medicine and we are joined by Brad Wells and Alex The Burj. Welcome guys to have you here. Thank you. A rare trio episode for me, so I'm pretty excited about unpacking perspectives from both of you guys.
So in this episode we're going to be exploring what is ayahuasca and other plant medicines such as fungus and different things like that, how these can be used in healing. What is or how does ayahuasca support healing and what can it heal? Is plant medicine for everyone or is there contraindications for it? And then we're going to talk a bit about our personal experiences with plant medicines and how these have supported our own personal journeys.
I'm talking about healing in communities, so all three of us work within communities, we bring people together to heal in communities, so we're going to be unpacking that. And then stick with us till the end because we're going to be sharing a special opportunity for you to explore ayahuasca if this is something that would feel in alignment to you.
So providing context, so Brad, Alex and I facilitate and while we co-host a retreat together called Cultivating Pride and Authenticity, so this is how we met. Brad reached out to me, he's an avid listener of the podcast and reached out to me and wanted to collaborate. So about a year ago we met and we decided that we wanted to continue the working relationship.
And so I wanted to invite them on the podcast so we can share a bit about our experiences of collaborating and working with plant medicine. The attention of this episode is to share our passion for nature to heal, using nature as a healing medium. It's a beautiful healing medium, so we want to unpack that. And just kind of an asterisk, this plant medicine is a huge topic, so we're really going to be kind of skimming the surface today.
There's many different types of plant medicines that can be used in different modalities. So we're going to be unpacking primarily ayahuasca, but we can touch on other medicines as well, but maybe not do as much of a deep dive into these as well. All right. So I figured we could just talk a bit about you guys, learn a bit about you, so I would like to know what do you do and what do you passionate about and why don't we start with Brad? Yeah. Thanks, Matt. Yeah. Yeah. Anor to be here.
Yeah. So I am the founder of Reunion in Costa Rica. We're a plant medicine center. It's really all we do, whether it's ayahuasca retreats like the one we're talking about or a psilocybin retreat. Maybe those are the two plant medicines that we work with. I always first introduced to ayahuasca about eight years ago, kind of unexpectedly, and ended up partaking and just found that, you know, after three ceremonies, it was transformative in my own, I mean, I couldn't even understand it.
And I was with about 25 other people at this retreat and in each of them was describing a similar experience of transformation and personal growth and insights that they just never had, particularly in a single week. So it was a real transformative experience. You know, one of the things that it showed me is just how much I was seeking my whole life for validation, for self-worth. You know, I worked really hard. I was kind of a serial entrepreneur.
Still have a number of those businesses, but realize that I didn't have to find my self-worth in a career or in achievement. So through that process, I ended up selling my main business and founding reunion as an offer profit, plant medicine center in Costa Rica. And it's been super rewarding just to work with the many people that have come through. In particular, particularly it's been rewarding to cultivate and pride in authenticity week that the three of us co-hosted together.
Yeah. And what are you passionate about? What gets you out of bed in the morning? What brings you to life? Yeah, I think it's just this idea of continuing life. You know, I never really woke up with a zeal, you know, or happiness. You know, I just got up and went to work. So I think the biggest change in my life is just getting up and experiencing life. You know, there's ups and there's downs, but just the experience of it.
I think it's spent a lot of years being so busy, and you know, particularly with work, the time just went by. So I guess I'm most passionate now, but just enjoying life, you know, as simple as that might sound and almost cliché-ish. It hits home for me. Yeah, thanks, Brad. I look forward to hearing a bit more about your story as the episode goes on. Alex, what about yourself? What do you do and what are you passionate about? I'm a psychotherapist and I work, I specialize in trauma.
So that's really the kind of focus of all my work. I'm also a plant medicine facilitator. So I started as a therapist for many years and then kind of got, I guess just didn't find it as meaningful as I wanted it to be and it felt very mental and it felt like something was missing in the work. And what I got introduced to Iowaska and kind of came down as path.
Things really opened up for me in terms of more holistic healing and understanding healing beyond just the psychological level, but the emotional, the spiritual, the physical. And so I became an Iowaska facilitator, spent many years training, living in the Amazon to get to that point of being able to facilitate ceremonies. And that's really my, what I specialize in, it's pretty much the focus of my professional life is healing with Iowaska and trauma healing. Yeah, awesome.
What was it like living in the Amazon for the time that you did? I loved it, it was also very hard. I love the jungle. I love being in the forest, being able to walk every day and just hear in the Amazon jungle and so alive. There's so many plants, trees and animals and everything growing on top of each other. It's incredible, very kind of rejuvenating in some way, just being in that energy.
But it's also very hard, especially where I was that was kind of an isolated town in the middle of the Amazon where you have very little access to any comforts. The retreats are often no electricity, no internet, you're swaltering hot. There was challenges to it and it was hard work. It was working in a retreat center full time year round. It's hard work, but I learned a tremendous amount and I really did. I love the work so that helped me to stick with it.
And this was a primarily where you were working and training at a retreat center. This was an Iowaska retreat center. It was an Iowaska in other Amazonian plant medicine centers. We did other plant medicine diets with different trees and other medicinal plants that had shaman, that was his specialty. Yeah, okay. Good. So what was required of you to become an Iowaska hero, that's what they call somebody who facilitates the shamanistic aspect of ceremonial Iowaska.
So what was required of you, what did you have to go through as far to train for that? Well, I mean, I went through a traditional apprenticeship.
People approached us from different ways, but I went through a traditional apprenticeship with my teacher and it involved a lot of plant medicine diets, which means kind of an isolated, it's almost like a meditation retreat where you separate yourself from people and you're just drinking the raw vegetables, raw material of different plant trees, whether it's bark, leaves, or roots. And you kind of consume nothing else, you very minimal diet, like rice and fish.
Sometimes it's just fish, that's it. And you're just basically there being with the plants that you're drinking to connect and develop a relationship with them. And so it's a lot of, you know, the heavy part of the training is the diets. That's where you build your relationship with the different plants and trees that have healing properties. So you can call on them during the ceremony and they comment actually do work for you.
And then just the, you know, working in the ceremonies from starting with just taking people, you know, into the shower after they're like overwhelmed, you know, it's kind of the first steps and then learning how to sit with people while they're having a really
hard time and learning how to guide people through the experience and eventually learning how to sing the traditional songs and then eventually learning how to basically work with people using a traditional Amazonian plant medicine skills that are part of Iowaska to help heal. And so it's a very slow process, very slow takes years and years and years to really develop any kind of confidence with it. And, you know, you just need to get hundreds of ceremonies under your belt.
Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, it sounds like there's like, you know, we're just talking about plant material. We're talking about like the spirit of the plant that we're working with and the spirit of the plant can be called on and utilized throughout the ceremony to help people heal. So you're kind of like the conduit between, because you've developed this relationship with the plant, the plant medicine to be able to kind of call that in and work with it within the ceremony. Is that correct?
Yes, exactly. That is the role of an Iowaska is you have built through, you know, years and years of dedication and respect and painstaking work and commitment to Iowaska and the other plant, you know, plants that you work with. You have through that you've built a relationship where they will actually work on, you know, if you're asking them to do something, whether it's cleanse or protect or heal or remove something, the spirit of the plants will, you know, show up and do that work.
And you can certainly feel that in ceremony if you're ever in a ceremony with a, you know, traditional Iowaska and they sing, you can feel things happening in your body and response to their singing. And that's the singing is actually what invokes and directs and calls on the spirits and, you know, that only happens if you have that relationship. Otherwise, it's just, you know, you could, it's music, right?
There's not people who play music in ceremony, but to actually have the spirits of these plants participate and actually do healing work. You need to have that relationship built. Yeah, yeah, I have a story that I'll share after about when you were facilitating. Yeah, but we'll talk about that a little bit later. Okay, so let's just, yeah, go right into what is Iowaska. Some people might be like wondering what is Iowaska. What is it? Well, it's a first and foremost, it's a vine.
It's a giant vine that grows on like the tallest trees in the jungle and just climbs up them. And so it can be, you know, a hundred feet long, thick, very sturdy. It's like a woody, it's almost like a tree itself because it's the, it has a very thick hard bark. So the vine is called Iowaska. It is also the name for a tea that is made by brewing, basically boiling the bark into a tea and used for medicinal purposes.
So usually that not always, but usually that is in combination with at least one other plant. So the tea is called Iowaska, but it often includes another plant called Shikruna, but sometimes there are different plants that are used instead. Sometimes there's more, many other plants that are used and it's more like a concoction of like several different plants and trees, but Iowaska is always in it.
And the reason why Iowaska is always in it is because it is the plant that has the, this tremendous healing capacity and properties, part of which is it is a purgative. So it helps us to remove things from inside of us.
And so Iowaska itself has many, many different psychoactive compounds and is, you know, if you just drank pure Iowaska a lot of it, you would have kind of some very subtle visions, but the other plant that is added Shikruna and other plants like it have DMT, which is a plastic psychedelic. And so together they create this brew where you have very powerful visions and very powerful healing. So you could just do DMT, but you're not going to have the healing properties that Iowaska brings.
You could just do Iowaska, but you're not going to have the intense beautiful visions where you can actually see what's happening in kind of 3D that you have with Shikruna. The other thing is they work together because Iowaska, the cause of the compounds in Iowaska Vine allow the DMT to be absorbed in oral format. So if you just drink a plant with DMT in it, it'll be destroyed in your stomach. And so Iowaska also blocks that destruction, the enzymes that break it down.
And so it's a real synergy between the two that allows the full Iowaska experience that people, you know, know. Yeah. So is Iowaska on its own a psychedelic or does it need to have Shikruna to be a psychedelic? It's not considered a psychedelic because it doesn't have one of the classic psychedelics, but it has these compounds in it that are also psychoactive. They're alkaloids. They're called the harmonies. There's several different harmonies compounds in it.
And you know, they've done some experiments where like they'll get very high doses of harmonies like to people and they will describe visions, but it's like monochromatic and subtle. And that's also what happens if you have Iowaska that's been brewed with very little Shikruna as you will, basically you'll still have some visions, but they're very subtle and they're kind of in black and white. So kind of yes and no. It has psychedelic properties, but it's not a full psychedelic like DMT.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And how long has it been around? How long has it been being used? Obviously, it's originates in the Amazon. So I'm assuming tribes. Yeah. So these are Amazon native plants. And because prior to, you know, Western colonization, there was no written record in that area. We don't really know how long because there's no way to go back in time.
But we have evidence of and has like found remnants of is essentially medicine pouches from medicine men with some of these compounds that are in Iowaska and other plants that have DMT in them. And those have, there's some that have been found that are like, you know, 2,000, 3,000 years old. So we don't have a written record, but there's a very strong, you know, very strong evidence that Iowaska and other psychoactive plant compounds have been used, you know, for 5,000 years.
Yeah. Okay. So that's Iowaska. And we don't need to go into such a deep dive of the other ones. And I'm just curious if you can list off like maybe the top five plant medicines that are used or that you might have experience with. Well, there's lots of plant medicines, but if you're talking about psychoactive ones, they're like psychedelic of nature, the, that create visions, the most well-known ones are our peyote, which is, you know, it's endemic to northern Mexico and southern Arizona.
That's used, it has been used by Native American indigenous people for many, many, you know, centuries, millennia in Mexico. And then there is also San Pedro, also known as Wachuma, which is from the Andes. And that is the primary visionary medicine of the people of the Andes. And it's also been used for, you know, again, there's no records, but for a long, long, long time.
And then there's also psilocybin mushrooms, which has been used traditionally, still used in, in Mexico in certain regions as part of their indigenous medicinal practices. And then there is also Aminita Mascar, which is another type of psychedelic mushroom that, you know, has a long history in Siberia. Again, as a visionary medicine that the shamans use there as part of their, you know, connect into spirits. So there's, and then there's Ibo-Game, which is an African tree or bush, really.
And that is also used in initiation rites and for other purposes as part of traditional practices in, I believe it's Caban. So there's quite a few around the world that are all used in kind of different ways, but they often have a medicinal element to them. Yeah, and for people listening that might be thinking like this sounds really out there.
I wanted to point out that a lot of the pharmaceuticals that we're consuming nowadays actually are derived from observing the compounds of plants in nature. So we're utilizing these things. Maybe it's just not being marketed in that way. And obviously not for psychedelics within, like pharmacology, but it's just there's a very strong relationship between plants and pharmacology from what I'm familiar with, you know, like anti-depressants looking at like fluoxine.
And that's derived from St. John's Wart, right? So they were able to look at that plant and see how this compound was able to start to be able to use it for combating depression. So then they take that and they put that into a pill form and now we consume it, right? So there's a very strong relationship. I just wanted to point that out because people that don't know that they might think that, you know, using plants to heal, like that sounds really strange, right?
Yeah. Okay, so let's talk a bit about the healing. So how does ayahuasca support healing? I know you said it's a purgative. So obviously we can purge, we can purge things out of ourselves. And then what can it heal? And I'll turn that over to Alex and then I'll want to talk to you a bit about your, what people come to reunion for, what are common things that people come to reunion for, but we'll start with Alex. Well, it's a big question.
How ayahuasca heals is kind of a mystery because it works in so many unexpected ways and we can't see what it's doing.
But I can tell you what I've observed from working with, you know, many, many people over many years that it, so one element of how it heals or what it does is that cleansing part and to me, this is what makes ayahuasca unique among all the other plant medicines and psychedelics that people use is that you're ingesting this material that can help in the energy of it in the spirit of it, that can help remove things from inside you.
And so it can actually help you release and expel unwanted, you name it, energies, mental patterns, behaviors, traumas, stored toxins physically in the body. It's able to do this on all levels, like spiritual, emotional, mental, spirit, physical. And that's really what ayahuasca is. It's kind of its secret sauce that no one really understands how is it able to do this, but that has a very profound effect.
Most people after an ayahuasca retreat, they've done several ceremonies and they've had lots of different kinds of purges, leave feeling a lot lighter. Stuff that they've been carrying around their entire lives is gone, is released. And so that purging isn't always, you know, it's not always vomiting, which is I think what ayahuasca is known for is like, oh, it makes you vomit, but not everyone vomits and certainly not everyone vomits every ceremony.
It's, you know, the purging can happen in lots of ways, but it's usually some way in which your body is physically expeling some kind of energy. And that's, and then, you know, some people actually can see what they're purging. That does happen more like something as they throw up and they have this vision of this experience from childhood happens all the time. Yeah. So that's one way certainly is the cleansing aspect.
It's a big part of ayahuasca is cleaning us out of stuff that doesn't serve us anymore. And also, you know, healing wounds, emotional wounds, traumas, pains that we carry from childhood, from adulthood, from relationships. It can help us do that. It is also a master teacher so we can give us insight about kind of our patterns in our life that are causing us to suffer. So it's able to kind of show us and teach us things that we need to change.
So often there's work to do after these, you know, ceremonies. And you know, it can heal trauma. It can help people release the stored pain of traumatic experiences. It can help people relate to what happened and understand it differently. All the things that in like Western psychology we understand as trauma being healed, it's able to do in its own way. Yeah. So, you know, those are the big ones.
And then the other one I would say is really learning to love ourselves and being able to actually feel love. I have so many people who have had in ceremony, who that was their first experience, truly feeling loved. Yeah. And like the fullness of what love is in their body, in their heart, in their mind. And that is life change. That is a profound experience. So it can help us to learn about love, be able to receive love, learn to love ourselves.
And I think that's a really important part of what it does. Yeah. Well said. My very first I was concerned when I was 25 and I had the most profound, beautiful experience. That was night one. And I just felt love and my heart opened up and people were playing guitar around me and I could feel each chord. Like in my body it was pretty magical. The next night, not so much, I'll share a bit more about that. Brad, I'm curious, like what do you think or what do you perceive that ayahuasca can heal?
I know you've sat in a lot of ceremonies and you have a retreat center where people are coming to heal, right? So yeah. I've had the opportunity, you know, really to sit with hundreds of guests because after every ceremony we do a sharing circle and people talk about what their experiences are and even post retreat, we connect back in with guests. And it's a lot of what Alex has said.
You know, people just really, I think if I say what are most looking for beforehand, you know, a lot of just transformation, a lot of maybe breaking through that people feel, you know, maybe being held back, what's holding me back, looking to let go of some of the trauma that they've experienced in the past that's maybe holding them back. You know, I hear people say, I'm ready for what's the next chapter in my life, like, you know, I'm at this point now. What's my purpose?
A lot of people come for healing, healing of relationships, healing, you know, themselves from trauma for sure. You know, so it's just, it's profound. Like you just hear, everyone almost has a unique story, which I guess isn't surprising because we're all unique individuals. But there's such a unique combination of why people come and really a unique, unique come is, you know, what people receive afterwards is really unique as well.
So it really, if I were to summon up, I think change, sustainable change, positive change, you know, in our lives is what I hear most people talking about. Yeah, yeah, love that. I kind of think about it like for me, whenever I do have done ayahuasca, it's like the feeling after I have a really big cry and there's this expansiveness. And but that expansiveness lasts longer. Like after a big cry, it might be like 24 hours, we feel like that.
And then maybe you start to go into like a normal state of whatever contraction wherever you, your, your baseline would be. But whenever I've done ayahuasca, it's like, I feel that expansiveness for a longer period of time, which gives me a nice window to be able to do different things, see the world through a different lens, you know, observe my patterns more clearly. So I just think that the importance of integration for me is the biggest piece of the ayahuasca.
I've had very many profound ceremonies, but until I learned integration of the medicine, that was when I started to notice the real big benefits of this work. So in like, like Alex said, there's many different ways to purge and cry is often the way that the people purge. And I hear a lot from people, you know, they said, I can't remember the last time I cried. I can't remember the last time I let go of some of these emotions.
People often share, you know, I had my apparent pass away or a close relative pass and I just didn't shut a tear and they were able to kind of go back into that and let those tears go, let that, let that, um, crying, you know, and how healing it is for them. It's, it's really amazing to hear. Yeah, it's, it's powerful.
I almost perceive it like whenever I'm on like a psychedelic, whether I've done mushrooms and ayahuasca, it's like my ego evaporates for the period of time that I'm under the influence and it allows me to connect with myself without my protector parts constantly negotiating with my reality. It's like, okay, here I am. Here's the fullness of me and I'm able to kind of relate with myself in this like fuller way.
So yeah, tears come through fears, like all these parts that I've maybe learned to protect against experiencing. It allows me to access those easier. That's how I've experienced it. Yeah, yeah, and in accessing them, letting them go in many cases, you know, and then kind of going through that, you know, so that's the transformation, it's transformative. I think of my own, if I were to say one word for myself, it's just, it's just been an amazing transformative experience. Mm-hmm.
To feel self love, you know, my particular case, I always knew I didn't like myself, I just didn't realize how much I hated myself till I really spent time, you know, so for me, I always could help go from a deep place of self hatred to loving myself. Mm-hmm. It's profound. And there's a lot of gratitude on my part for that. It's why I open reunion. You know, it's been so transformative in my own life. Yeah. Tell us a bit more about that.
What does these, what maybe think about like the, an experience that you had when you were using the medicine that really helped you have some realizations or some healing or letting go? Yeah, I think particularly for this podcast to, to, to gay men, you know, I had driven a very religious home. I heard from a very young age that, you know, gave people we're going to go to hell and there was no place, you know, in the world for, for who I knew I was.
So I buried it deeply, spent, you know, 27 years married to a wonderful woman and was living, you know, or trying to live what I've perceived to be a straight life. And, you know, sitting with Iowaska, you know, I kind of had this sense like you, you don't like yourself. And I was like, yeah, I know. Like I know I've never liked myself. And then it was a little bit more of a, a little awareness that no, you really don't, don't like yourself. And I was like, yeah, I know.
I really didn't want to go there. You know, it's like, I like salute to you or you mentioned some nights, some nights are a little more challenging than others. And for me, it was just like, no, you just hate yourself to the core. And I knew that and I could feel it. And a lot of that for me, when, when, not all of it, but certainly so much went back to being gay and, and, you know, trying to hide that, the guilt around it and, and working with Iowaska really, let me let, let that go.
You know, and, you know, I would say Iowaska didn't out me, like, you know, in my own experience, Iowaska doesn't do something to us that we don't want. But for me, it allowed me to see things and to, you know, be aware that, that I wasn't living an authentic life, that I wasn't living in integrity. And that was important to me. So, you know, if I wanted to live a more authentic life, if I wanted to live in more integrity, I had the option to come out and, and be who I am.
So, so through the process, sitting with, with Iowaska for sure, helped me to do that, you know, and, and, both four years ago, and came out, as, as a gay man, and, you know, it was with a lot of tears, a lot of trauma, a lot of guilt, right? And, and, you know, really grateful for the experience of this plant medicine with Iowaska to, to help me move through that.
And, you know, that's, I think some of what we saw with, with the retreat that we did, you know, the guys that joined us moving through, for a lot of us, it's, it's helping to move through toxic shame that works out that, that you did, Matt, was, was really good.
And, you know, we have shame in our lives not just related to being gay, but that was nice about all of us being able to relate to each other is, is, you know, knowing that level of shame that was there because of, because of being gay, and because of the, you know, the way society looks at that. So I think that's the biggest part for me.
Yeah. I started my first Iowaska ceremony as a married, straight CEO, and in Denny, I was trying to wear, you know, pretty, pretty heavily, very tiring to, to wear that. And now I'm, you know, founder of the Plant Medicine Center in Costa Rica and in out and gay and, in hosting these retreats and just seeing transformation and continue transformation in my own life, but also with so many of the guests that come down and, and spend a week with us. Yeah. Does shame still show up for you?
As for a relationship to your gayness? Yeah, it does at times, you know, I think the difference now, certainly not like it did. Right. And I would say that the difference is I'm aware of it. Ah, you know, this is, this is some shame creeping back in. You know, I also know and realize that it's very easy for me to pick shame back up, you know, letting it go is, is one thing. And it's also very easy to, for me, anyways, to invite it back in.
So, so the awareness of, you know, what's coming up for me. I just didn't have that self-awareness before. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes it does, for sure. But it not just with being gay, I mean, you know, certainly different aspects of life, but way, way, just a small, small fraction of how I live my life before. Hmm. Yeah, thanks for sharing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, what about for you, Alex? I'm curious. Yeah, maybe you wanted to share a bit about your healing journey.
What, what drew you to the medicine like for yourself, for you wanting to use it for healing? Um, you know, what drew me to, I was in the first place was, um, I was at a point in my life where I didn't know my path going forward for like probably the first time ever. Um, and where I really had no idea what to do next. So I'd already been a therapist for, um, I don't know, 10, 12 years.
And I kind of had reached a, I don't know how to describe it, a plateau or just a, um, a flat place in my life where I was dissatisfied. I wasn't like unhappy depressed, but I was dissatisfied with kind of everything. I wasn't liking the work anymore. I was not. I was just kind of, you know, dragging myself into, to sessions with my clients. And I was just like, I need to, I think I'm done.
Um, and I felt the same way about San Francisco, which had changed a lot since I moved there right after college. And, you know, my community had really shifted and people had left and just kind of nothing, and my life was really, um, felt right. And so I decided to go on this around the world trip and kind of close everything down and just travel around the world. And I, the hope was that that would help me to find my direction, because I honestly didn't know what I was going to do next.
I just knew I was done with therapy. Good. Um, and, in fact, at that point, I thought I'd kind of, I'd retired, you know, from, from the field. Um, and so in that around the world, travel, you know, three years, um, I was, you know, in Peru, I did Ayahuasca on the recommendation of a friend.
Um, and that just opened up this whole journey of really finding out and learning what really matters to me, um, finding my, my footing in the world going forward, finding my meaning, my purpose, my direction that took, you know, it was definitely not in the first, you know, retreat that took, um, probably two, three years actually to get there. Um, so, you know, some part was really getting to know who I was and why I'm here and, and what's my path in this world?
And in some ways, it was kind of coming back home already, because I had already gone down, like I already chosen this path, healing, service, counseling, whatever you want to call it, you know, it's, it's a path where your, your life is to help others. And, um, and so kind of I came back to it, but in this much, much deeper way, and I would say a much more spiritual way.
Um, and so, you know, that process also involved, you know, releasing a lot of stuff and, um, you know, working on myself, my, my emotions, I had certainly a lot of, a lot of emotions, a lot of emotional purges and, in that time, um, and kind of tidying up things from the past, like past relationships that weren't fully resolved.
Um, it's, it kind of helped me clear the past and find my path forward and find, you know, what my really kind of rekindle, what I love, um, which is community, nature, and healing, and those are the three things that really I got there and I saw it was like, I just felt like I was just being filled up with, with love, with nutrients, with all the things that I'd been missing. Um, and part of that was the jungle and the forest and, and, and reminding me how much I love nature.
So that was very refilling the, the nature of it, the plants, the trees, and then the community process, like it wasn't, it wasn't a solo, you know, I'd done therapy and, I'd been in therapy myself for years, you know, I'd done my work, but it was one on one in solitary, very different when you're doing this work in community with others and, um, that, I just loved that aspect of it. It just felt very bonded.
If I felt like I belonged somewhere, like we're all in this together, that was really a special and, and that's, um, you know, showed me how important that is to me. I didn't really appreciate how important the community was to me until kind of living that retreat center lifestyle.
Um, and, and then yeah, the, the, you know, healing and services my path, I mean, I, it kind of naturally happened while I was there without, you know, I was just there as a guest and then it just very quickly turned into me supporting others and then being asked to work there and then, you know, kind of off to the races on that front.
So, um, and doing it from a much deeper place, you know, it just, I, more than anything, I think I learned, I learned a lot about what healing is in a way that I kind of, going through traditional psychotherapy, training program, um, I feel like I learned like one narrow slice.
It's kind of mental psychological version, you know, maybe a little emotional too in there, but this really deepened my understanding of like the whole human organism, um, spirit, body and everything in between and what healing means there. It was profoundly eye opening is what I would say. And so when I eventually went back to the US, I was like, there is no way I can go back to traditional therapy.
I just, I, you know, I, I had to be more holistic and, um, and I had to continue to work with Iwanska. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. I love when something comes and it crosses our path and it's like, ah, it changes your whole direction, right? It sounds like, uh, yeah, if I were to reflect what you said in a couple words, it sounds like you got a lot of, uh, clarity of purpose, like clarity of the future of how am I going to be moving forward? Yes. Clearing past.
So, and it sounds like maybe you needed to clear the past before you could get clarity of purpose and to move forward in the medicine really gave you that. Yeah. That's a great way to put it. It was, I needed to clear past stuff that I didn't even know needed to be cleared. Yeah. That's, that's kind of what I was because, uh, it's, it's magic. It just shows us things that have been there holding us back that we didn't even know there.
To me, that's what it's really, I've never encountered anything that can do that. And, and so that helped me to then exactly move forward. Yeah. And that's the common theme that we hear from guests. Yeah. And the clearing of these things that we didn't even know were holding us back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. Clearing and clarity makes me think most of my, my ceremonies have been clearing.
I haven't really gotten much clarity from, from the medicine, but I hear a lot of people getting clarity from the medicine. Like they get messages or they get visions of, of what to do next or these sorts of things. I think just my past and the things that I've been through, I think I've had a, a lot of tension building up inside my body and, and harboring and holding and guarding and protecting.
And I think the medicine for me has been a really profound teacher on breathing, releasing, surrendering and so the things can clear. Yeah. I, I honestly think the medicine for me has really been, it's allowed me to develop a relationship with my ego in a healthy way. I think my ego came on board from a young age to protect me and it, I had all these protection mechanisms that I was using to navigate a really like challenging upbringing.
And the medicine for me gives me periods of time to be in relationship to my ego in a way that it feels co-creative. And I think that has been a big thing for me. It gives me periods of time to be able to observe my true nature and, uh, which is a loving being, um, that isn't inundated with fear. Um, I think that's been the periods of time. I'm not saying that my, my experiences with the medicine haven't brought fear to me, but it's allowed me to maybe even face my fear.
Because if, if an ego comes online early, it's usually guarding against having to experience those things. So it's like if I can start to connect with myself and connect with my fear and look at it and be with it in a conscious way, that's been the biggest takeaway from me from the medicine. Um, yeah. That reminds me of the ceremony that we, that I think it was the first ceremony or no, it was the second ceremony that we did.
And you came up to me, Brad, and you were, you know, kind of just coaching me beside me and, and like telling me that it's okay. And, um, you were kind of, you were talking with my inner child. My inner child was like feeling a lot of fear and things from the past were coming up. And it was just, it was a really powerful experience to be able to have somebody there that felt supportive at that time to be able to help me feel safe in that moment.
So it's like, I experienced the medicine is like it's, it's giving me an opportunity to experience something from the past, but from a higher perspective, from a higher knowing ness in, in that moment. Um, yeah, it's, it's powerful. It's very powerful. Safety is one of the biggest, um, issues that come up with guests, you know, is going to be in a safe place, um, physically, medically, you know, if I can just say every union, you know, we have a licensed medical clinic on the property.
We have close to 40 acres, you know, we're gated, you know, so it's just us. Costa Rica is one of the safest, if not the safest countries in Central America. So, so guests are really in a safe, physically place, uh, to do, to do this work and, and to take the medicine. And they're in a place that safe psychologically. Yeah, I know. And I think that's one of the, that's why we're doing a gay men's week, right?
So not only is there the safety of, of being in that and the acceptance, but a lot of guests said when we were down there, Matt, you know, they've always felt like the token gay when they went to these different retreats, right? I heard that a lot. Yeah. And this was so different. I think we all felt the same way, you know, we sat in a room with, with 25 to 30, uh, gay men in, in gay, in queer men and, and just felt, you know, how inclusive that is to, to, to do the work.
You know, so that's why we're, that's why we're doing this one in July and another one in, in, in August, just, just to bring the group of guys together again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I was, I just did two, well, since, since we met, I did, I've done two retreats where I was a participant and I was the token gay. And I was like, there's that hesitation. It's always that little, ooh. Like, do I tell people and I scan, I'm scanning the room so that younger protective part comes in even still, right?
And I've done a ton of work in this area and that little protector parts always looking, you know, are these people safe? Is it safe to let people know about this really vulnerable, sensitive part of who I am, right? Um, so it is very nice.
I, I found that even though I was facilitating at that retreat, I found it, it, very healing, being around other gay men that, you know, it's that part of me just, it was able to just rest and sink into itself and I didn't have to be hyper vigilant over the course of the week. So it was nice. Yeah. It was really nice for me to, like, just, yeah. And, and for me, I mean, you know, the boundary of a retreat center, I've never felt more inclusive than, than, they are cultivating pride.
We, you know, that's what I'm looking forward to, to continuing this because it just allows us to go, and be comfortable. And go deep into some of the stuff that we want to work through. Yeah. Yeah. That felt the same way.
I'm always the token gay and even retreats them, I'm leading, you know, it's, it's, it was so special to be in a, in a group where everyone was gay and queer and was there for the same purpose, like to work on themselves, to do some, some transformational, some growth, some healing work. And it really, I felt very connected to everybody in a, in a deeper way. And it felt like community, you know, it felt like a real, a healthy community.
You know, and personally, I've never had that in, in the gay world, like any community has been part of, I've usually been very party-centric.
And, and to be in the space where there's not party-centric, it's not about trying to do some, try to have sex with someone like all of that's out of space for the whole week, really getting to know people in this deeper, kind of true intimacy, getting to know people, their challenges, their soft spots, you're sharing your soft spots, you're being seen, you're being witnessed and finding how much in common, I had with so many people in, as I didn't expect it was beautiful.
Yeah. Yeah. And it's really stayed together, they really still connected, you know, it's nice to see a lot of them meeting up for dinners and groups and, and, and, and the communication between, between everyone is, is really powerful. That's what, you know, the name reunion is about reuniting with, with ourselves coming back to who we are, but also reuniting in community. So it was nice to see, you know, that, that both of that, both of those things were happening from, from the last retreat.
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I'm curious for you, Alex, in the sense of safety, as a trained Iowa scurro, what are some of the elements that are essential in order to create a safe experience for people? Well, there's all the different levels of human experience need to be safe.
So physically, as Brett said, the, the space has to be safe, that also means having enough people to attend to all the bodies that are there, because some people might need help, some people might need help, the bathrooms, sometimes people need help calming themselves, you know, the physical bodies need to be safe. That's kind of, yeah, that's not one.
And so that you have experienced people that know how to do that, know all the things that can happen in an Iowa scurro, and, and, you know, the team is, is enough to handle that. Yeah. Then there's the emotional safety of, like, these are people I can trust that are warm and accepting, and, you know, can, can witness and support what I'm going through without judging it or criticizing it. And you don't always get that.
You get, there's some kind of harsh people in the medicine world sometimes, a lot of opinions about how things should be. And so, you know, our team is extremely supportive, warm, compassionate. It's about helping people have their own experience, not telling them how it needs to be. So that emotional safety to really feel like you can go as deep as you need to go.
That's necessary to have that, that deeper level of transformation and healing, because if you're, if you don't feel that, you're not going to feel safe and comfortable to truly to surrender and truly let go into the process. Yeah. And then there's also a spiritual level of safety. And that's, you know, kind of the role of the ayahuasca, which is to protect the space spiritually and to keep people's energies, you know, kind of where they need to be and keep out anything external.
And so it's like creating a, it's basically creating a, a bubble, an energetic bubble around the whole ceremony space that allows all of our, you know, our purges and all the energies we're releasing to, to leave, but doesn't allow anything else in. Yeah. And so that's really important as well, having that, that's the spiritual container. Yeah. Yeah, like that.
I also think it's important to that the person that's like the ayahuasca has done their work, because I've also sat with people where I could feel that they haven't done a lot of their work and they're, you know, so, and I've sat with you in ceremony and I've, I see that you've, you're showing up in integrity and that you're in alignment to, to your teachings, which is in my opinion, one of the most important aspects. Yeah. Glad you mentioned that.
That's probably should have, I should have led with that because there are many people even in the Amazon and, you know, traditional ayahuasca, those that are, they're not in integrity and they're there to get money, they're there to use people, they're to seduce the women and America, you know, foreigners that happens a lot. Yeah. So, you know, it's like the true people who are dedicated to medicine is, is the smaller percentage. I agree. You know.
Yeah. I will say, Matt, that's, you know, one of the most important things that I spend time with. We have very few, we only have three or four people in total that serve medicine at our union. You know, people who have done the training, years of experience, people who I know and trust very well, you know, and having Alex there as a gay man for this cultivating pride was, you know, it was really great Alex. Yeah. So, that, you know, during, during the week.
And not just the, certainly the people serving the medicine, where the medicine comes from. So we're also very aware of, of serving medicine. For our, these retreats, we're talking about, it's ayahuasca and tracuna. That's the only substances in, in the tea, in the brew that we serve. And we know where that ayahuasca comes from. We get it directly from the village in, in Peru that, that supports us. So yeah, it is important that for us doing this has done the work and is integrity for sure.
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's like hiring a therapist that isn't, you know, isn't living what they're teaching or what their practices are. So I just think everything's an energetic transmission from my perspective. So the person that's, you know, in residence of the work, the teachings, we feel it. We feel that vibration. And actually to tell the story, when, when you were singing the Icaros above me, Alex, it was like, woo, like I was able to go to that next place, right?
So you were channeling something through that I was picking up on, right? And I think in order to be able to channel, like you have to be an integrity, you have to be an alignment to your teachings, to the energy that your teachings are transmitting. And so yeah, I feel very fortunate that I've come into collaboration with you guys because it is, it is high integrity from my perspective. So in a lot of the feedback to from the guys that were there was the same, you know, they felt safe.
They felt that this was an amazing opportunity. You know, one of the guests said to me, man, I think I said this to you, you know, he'd been looking for 55 years for what he found. You know, I thought, wow, what a profound statement. You know, looking for 55 years for what I found. You know, it's not uncommon. Yeah. Yeah. For people that are listening and they're like, is this for me? Do I should I go? Is this something that I would, you know, benefit from?
I want to just get a sense, Alex or Brad, either of you that feels called to answer is Platte Medicine for everyone, is there contraindications? Is there a reason why somebody wouldn't, wouldn't come? One of the things that we do is we do a medical intake with everyone that comes, right? Yeah. Most, you know, medications that people are on, a health check, right?
Yeah. And we go through that on the intake process because if there is something preexisting that isn't safe for an individual to do with, with, with Iowaska, we want to know upfront. Yeah. You know, we don't have that individual come. They may be on an antidepressant that needs to be weaned off of, you know, before they come. So many, many times they can still come. It's maybe just some extra preparation beforehand. But it's also why we have a licensed medical clinic on the, on the property.
You know, where we do blood pressure checks and in heart rate monitoring before those first retreats, just to make sure that people are physically safe to, to do this. So that would be probably one of the main reasons, Alex, you know, to, to, to, to, to, to, to not be able to do the medicine would be from a physical safety, a medical safety perspective. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the most common issues that come up with wanting to do Iowaska, but it's, it's not safe to do is high blood pressure.
Um, so, you know, hypertension, you know, a little high blood pressure can be okay, but above a certain level, it's dangerous because Iowaska will elevate your blood pressure in the process of it. And then as Brad said, there's a lot of medications that don't work well with Iowaska. Iowaska is a really complex, um, brew with a lot of different compounds in it that can have, um, unpleasant or sometimes dangerous interactions with prescription medications. So that screening is really important.
And I do, you know, I saw myself personally being there. How seriously reunion takes that with the, you know, Nurosonsi, a doctor that's the medical overseer, um, and, and, you know, checking a blood pressure very thorough.
So, um, those are the main ones, you know, there's also certain mental health conditions that, um, it's risky to do like if you have bipolar one disorder, you've had a manic episode, you shouldn't be doing, it's just, it's not worth the risk to really do any psychedelics, actually, um, and same with, um, anything in the psychosis spectrum.
Uh, any kind of disorder we've ever had psychosis or lost touch with reality, um, for an extended period of time, you know, beyond just like the substance you took, um, it's, it's, it's, it's too risky because that could trigger that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Safety's the biggest one. And, you know, just, just to add to your point on the high blood pressure, I'm on a high blood pressure medication.
So I don't have to come off that medication that, that I'm on is fine to be taken with Iowaska in, in, in, it brings it down. So not all medications, you know, many medications you don't have to come off, you know, for, for, for this week, guys often ask, if I'm on prep, do I have to come off that? No, we don't. Um, if there's, uh, HIV medications, uh, the guys don't have to come off those, you know, so it's really just, just the ones that, that are contraindicated for, for Iowaska.
Yeah. We screen out. Yeah. Good. Good. And yeah, this isn't a thing where you can just go online and register for this. You have to book a, a discovery call and consult with your self-brad and then the medical team and things like that.
So it's very thought out and, uh, so, okay, one last thing I want to talk about because I, I'd be remiss if I talked about a medicine without bringing up the concept of integration, which I talked briefly about earlier, but, um, let's touch on that because for me, it's, you know, it's one thing to go have a big experience, but then what do we do with that? What do we do after leaving a retreat? Um, how do we use this?
For me, again, that, that three month window I find it's about a three month window for myself. Um, that is where the magic happens. So maybe I'll get you Alex to talk a bit about integration because I know you do integration work in your, in your practice. What does that look like? What is it? Why is it beneficial?
Well, it's, um, it's a way of taking what you experienced during the retreat and, um, you know, the healings, the insights, the wisdom, the shifts in perspective, um, and, and actually translating that into manifesto change in your life in the future. Yeah. So some things, you know, what I want to say, some things, you, you know, if you have the purge, it's done and there's nothing else to do, right?
Like there's a transformation element just doing the ceremony, but there's a lot of things that come up that need more work. And I would say everyone will have some things that need more work after a retreat and that work can look like I need to give up certain, you know, behaviors or patterns that they were shown don't serve many more.
That's really common. Yeah. Um, I need to fix a relationship, you know, like tidy it up, apologize, make amends with someone or, um, I need to treat myself better or I need to take care of myself better, um, or maybe I need to start therapy. Sometimes that happens where people, um, realize, oh, you know, there's a lot of trauma here. And the medicine showed to me that it's really affecting me and there's more to do. So there's usually some work to do afterwards.
Yeah. Um, my experience, you know, working at a retreat center and seeing people come back year after year, those who really took their integration seriously, they came back, they made the changes they needed to make in their life. They came back much better place ready for kind of the next thing. Yeah. Who didn't, it's like they came back and they were like, we're right back in the same mess. Yeah. Because they didn't make any changes.
Maybe they needed to change a relationship or change their job or change how they were living or change their relationship to substances they were using. They didn't make any of those changes. So I was to kind of clean you up and shine you up. And you're ready. You're sparkling. You go back home. But if you don't change your environment and your life to match that new shine, you can be sparkly you, then over time, it's very easy to kind of get back.
You're kind of rebuilding the same patterns that you just fought to clear. Yeah. So integration, you know, I think you spent three months as a good way to look at it is really important. And, um, you know, actually Brad initially reached out to me, um, to help with, it wasn't even to facilitate the retreat. It was to help develop a, um, an integration program for the cultivating private retreat. And so, um, we, I put a lot of thought into it. We worked on it as a team.
It's a multi week program with like videos and recommended practices and resources as people need them. And, um, that's, we've got a lot of good feedback on that. And, um, and it, yeah, though, you know, it is important. You will, you will just go, go so much further if you're taking your integration seriously. Yeah. I think what we hear from guests is they've had an amazing week. But now they want to have sustainable change.
Yeah. And in the integration program that we've put together specifically for cultivating pride, um, helps to give the tools, if that's the way to say it or the support, uh, for, for, for, you know, guys going forward afterwards. Yeah. And, you know, we, we incorporate some of that, you know, even into the initial workshops during the week. We definitely want to start to hit on, you know, what's it going to be like when, when you go home?
What are some of the practices that you can incorporate that help you with? A sustainable change. It's, you know, one of the, the sessions we do is, is breath work, you know, breath work something that you can do. And when you go home, you know, um, a meditative practice might, might, might be helpful for people. So providing some of the tools that, that people are able to go back home and really keep this change going for them. Yeah. Yeah. Well said, guys.
All right, before we land the plane, let's, let's share with them, uh, our, our offering. What's coming up? We got some, uh, two retreats coming up July and October. So I'll turn over to you to you, Brad, to share a little bit more about the cultivating pride and authenticity retreats coming up. Yeah, we have two retreats. Like you mentioned, one in July and one in October. A lot of the details of reunion can be found on our website and, and specifically the details of this program.
But I think the most, the most important thing in the guys I talk to, Matt, in, in quite a few that are listening to the podcast are really looking for, how do I take things in my life to the next level? Yeah. You know, like how, how can I have that change that, that I'm wanting to have in this retreat is really designed to, to help do that, you know, to, and it's unique for, it's unique for everyone.
So, you know, the ethos of this is, is, is not for profit, so we're not doing this for, you know, for money. It's not, not why we found it reunion. It's not why I've done it. We need to pay our bills. We need to be sustainable. Uh, so, so we do have to charge for the week, but it really is to provide a place where people can come and, and do this work, particularly gay, gay, queer and questioning men can come and do this work in community.
It's, it's really profound to be able to sit around and, and do this work together. So that's why we're doing these retreats. We're going to do to, to this year and, and the hope is, and, you know, as more and more people hear about this and are called to it that we can continue this in, into 2025 and, and beyond, because, you know, this is not a reunion. Doing an LGBTQ program is not kind of a check box on an organization's, you know, we should do this, support this community. I am a gay man.
Um, founded this retreat center in this program is, is, you know, the, the core of, of, of what I'm involved in, you know, and it's really exciting to be able to provide this for, for people that want to come and do the work. Yeah. Yeah. For people that are listening that are part of the, the gay men's brotherhood, this is, uh, an opportunity to come in person and, uh, do some personal development and healing work with other gay men.
There are a lot of the spaces that we have in our community revolve around drugs, alcohol, partying, cruises, like all these sorts of things, which is nothing wrong with that, but this, there's very, it's very rare to find spaces where you can come and do deep healing work with other gay men, right? Uh, so I think that's a big part for me and the fact that it's, uh, nonsexual space in, in, in our very first orientation, we've even talked about that, right?
Like this is not a place to cruise, to come, to look for your, your, your next partner, lover, it's, it's not about that. It's about to come and, and be in deeper relationship with yourself while also, um, holding that there's community here that can be supportive in a platonic way. That, that for me is, is the integrity of this work because I don't want to be part of communities where they're mixing, plat medicine and, and sex. I just think it's, it's not ethical from my point of view.
Yeah. And, you know, we had, you know, guys from all over the world, you know, all different sizes and shapes and colors and, and, and, you know, it was really, it was powerful. So this, this is, to your point, it's, it's, it's not a cruising opportunity, nothing wrong with that. It's just, that's not what this week is, is, is about, you know, it's, it's an opportunity to be in community and to, to do our own work and, and, and to have some of these changes that we want.
Yeah. Yeah. So what can, if somebody does want to just, they decide they want to come, what can they expect? So they set up their, their, their discovery call, like just maybe walk through the process and then a little bit about what happens at the retreat. I know it would be important to share that a little bit about that. Sure. So, you know, I've going on to reengin experience.org. That's, that's our website.
You know, there's, there's a specific landing page for the Cultivating Pride program in, in, in, in, they can book a discovery call. So they don't have to put a deposit down or anything to, to book that discovery call. And usually it's me, but, you know, depending on, on demand, it's, it's one of us that, that book that call and we can just kind of go more in an individual basis. What is it that the person's looking for? What are their specific questions?
Yeah. A lot of times I hear people, I, I don't want to, I don't want to vomit, you know, into Alex's point. You know, my own experience, I didn't want to vomit either. Like I didn't sign up for that. Um, you know, now looking at it, I'm, you know, I let go of a lot through, through those purges, and not everyone purchase.
So it's not everyone's going to, everyone purges, not everyone vomits, you know, so, so, it's not, and then I hear sometimes like, it seems like it's a really good look and group on, on your website. And I'm like, let's, didn't even enter the picture. Right. It wasn't, it wasn't about that. You know, and, and certainly, having a solid together, community was good. So they come on and, and book a discovery call, if they're feeling that this is for them. This isn't a sales pitch.
You really do need to feel like, hey, this is something I want to do. And when I be part of this, I want to do this, this, this transformative experience. I think, then you go on and book and put in your deposit and then we get you going on the intake, which is the medical part. And then we register. You can go with a single room or, or, or a private room when, when you're there for the week, retreat start on the Saturday in person. And it's, well, actually, we start beforehand.
We want to, we want to get everyone on a Zoom call a couple of weeks before just to do an introduction. Yeah. Introduction to us and to each other, because that's the sense of community that, that we want to be building. You know, so, so you're going to be spending time with, with these people. These guys.
And then, you know, when you, introduction, the first night, kind of an orientation on the Saturday when we get there and, you know, our first ceremony is Sunday night after there's some workshops during, during the day on what to expect in, in, in Ayahuasca, Ayahuasca 101 is, is what we call it. There's two ceremonies Monday, sorry, Sunday Monday, then we take a night off and then another two ceremonies on Wednesday and Thursday. So we'll have four Ayahuasca ceremonies during the week.
In July, we'll also have a sweat lodge, traditional indigenous sweat lodge that is, is going to be offered, we won't have that opportunity in, in October. And then really supportive of the ceremonies are the workshops that, that, that we've put together in particular, my ear help with the workshops, you know, to, that we do during the day for, for a couple of hours to really take us into a, kind of a place of being ready for ceremony.
Yeah. Yeah. Personally, and, and for myself and for, you know, a lot of the guys that were there, the, you know, toxic shame and a shame workshop, and really set a nice stage for, for going into one of the first Ayahuasca ceremonies, letting go of, of some of that, letting go of a lot of that.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, having a, having a group of other, like, you know, all gay men and we're all on the same boat and sharing the story, like it just, it was, for me, it was just so, you know, nice to hear. I wasn't alone in this, the, the feelings I had, the things, the thoughts I've had, the stories I've told myself, a lot of that was common to everyone in, in the group, you know, and I think just allows us to go deeper into this work. Yeah. And so it, it's a full week.
Um, we don't want it to be, you know, two full, because it's nice to have time to interact and connect, uh, with, with, with other people that are there with the other guys over, over meals. We're in a beautiful location, you know, we're right on the ocean in Costa Rica. So, you know, getting and enjoying the, the beautiful ocean, we have a pool on the property as well.
So we, there's this balance of some deep transformative work that can be tiring for sure at times and, and then some downtime and some individual space as well. There's, there's a, quite a number of places to be by myself on the property if you want to be by yourself or in community, if you want to be connected. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll include the link in the show notes.
So for those of you that are interested in, you want to inquire, you want to set up a discovery call, just click on the link in the show notes and everything will be there. And I believe if you, um, if they submit the, the promo code ML reunion, um, you can save $250 on your registration. So that's, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. For the podcast, uh, our people. For sure. And, and thank you for that.
You know, I hear from the guests I talked to, uh, looking to discover recalls just how important this podcast has been that you and Michael are doing for so many of them because I think the reason they're listening to the podcast is they are looking for something other than the party scene, the bar scene. You know, again, nothing wrong with that. That's always there.
A lot of the guys I've talked to that are listening to this podcast, um, Matt, are, are the same guests that that are looking to come to a union. They're wanting to be in community. They're wanting to, you know, go into their own transformation into their own healing and, and your podcast is really providing a lot of opportunity for people to connect and, and, and to relate to a lot of what, what you're discussing. So thanks.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was listening to the podcast, you know, and I think I said to you one point I thought, I think you must have done, you know, I think Matt's done Ayahuasca and I'm glad that we connected and, and thanks for being part of this program because it's been really, really transformative for so many of these guys. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. I'm looking forward to round two and three. Let's do this. Let's change lives. That's why we're here.
Yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful opportunity to come together. So, and Alex, thank you as well for coming, being part of this at Reunion. It's, it's, it's really amazing to see the changes that in the feedback from my guys, say, you know, that, but even through the program, it's just, yeah, it's heartwarming. Really, we describe it. Yeah. It's an honor to be able to do this and be part of this. So, yeah, very grateful for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. It's exciting. Yeah. All right.
Well, we'll land the plane here. I want to just personally thank you guys for coming on and sharing, yeah, your stories and your wisdom. And yeah, like I said, I'm looking forward to what July and October have in store for us. It's going to be great. And yeah, for those tuning in, audience, thanks for spending another hour with me and my guests and link in the show notes. Let us know if you have any questions.
You can always email info at gaymen'sbrotherhood.com or leave comments on YouTube and I'll make sure that the questions on YouTube and I'll make sure they get answered. So, all right. Until next time, much love, everybody. Thanks. Thanks, man.