Hello everyone and welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper. This is a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. Today I am your host, my name is Michael Dioreo. I am a life and wellness coach specializing in self-confidence, sexuality and relationships. Today's episode is about financial empowerment. Some of the topics we'll be covering today are how your financial wellbeing influences your experiences
and opportunities as a gay men. We'll talk about empowering versus disempowering beliefs about wealth and money. We'll be talking about unique financial challenges faced by gay men and practical personal finance tips for creating more wealth. My guest today is Mike Kim. He is the founder of Michael Lee Kim Coaching and is a personal finance coach, certified professional accountant, digital nomad and TEDx speaker. His mission is to help working young professionals from low to
middle-class families have control over their money and their lives. Welcome to the show, Mike. Thank you for having me here, Michael. I'm super excited to jump into this topic. Money is a great topic that we don't talk enough about on this podcast, so I'm excited to jump into it with an expert like you. Amazing. This is very new for me as well. I've never been on a LGBT podcast talking about money, so this is a first for me as well. Yes, love it. And my
cast is own podcast, which I'm sure you'll share later, right? Yes, I do. It's called the Personal with Money Podcast. Perfect. Yes. Which I've been a guest on, which is great. Okay, so for our viewers and listeners out there, now you may be wondering why we are talking about wealth and money on a podcast about personal development, mental health and sexuality. And I think that's a great question. And so I want to explain to you why this topic is important
to me and why I decided to do this. I think it's important to talk about money. And I know that for some of you, this might be a jarring statement because you may have been taught in your culture that we aren't supposed to talk about money. Firstly, I disagree. I think talking about it out loud with people who we trust and who are experts in the field can help destigmatize it. And that creates an education around it. And personally, I think that financial literacy is fundamental
to living an empowered life. It gives you sense of security, stability. It creates opportunities for you to do the things that you want to do. And that could be anything, right? For some people, it might be wanting to start and raise a family. For other people like me, it might be wanting to travel or start a business. For other people, it might be wanting to buy a home or have property, right? Whatever it is, it empowers you and enables you. And I believe personally that our education
system fails us on so many levels when it comes to financial literacy. And that's a shame because money is how we survive. At the very basic at the bare bones of it, you need money for a home, you need money for food, you need money to take care of ourselves, you need money to take care of
your loved ones and others. And anyone out there who's listening to this and who has had those money struggles where you don't know whether you're going to make it to the next month or you don't know how you're going to eat dinner, you know how important it is to your mental health and well-being to be able to be at a good place with money where you know you have enough, right? And this isn't about a specific amount. We're not talking about that. Whatever that amount is for you, that makes you
feel secure and safe. So, yeah, when you're worried about money, it has an enormous impact on your relationships, for sure. I think money is one of the biggest conflict points between couples. It affects your mental health and even your physical health. That stress has an impact on your physical health. So, then I want to talk a little bit about wealth and empowerment, right? So, even if you're not in survival mode, creating wealth, which means like financial abundance,
that's what it means to me. Again, it gives you possibilities and opportunities that open stores. Now, it does not make you happier. Hear me when I say this, money does not solve all your problems. It solves some of them, but not all them. And it certainly does not make you happier because we know that happiness comes from your mind, not your bank account. Okay? But it does give you options. I will say that. And I want you, the viewer listener, there to have whatever amount of money you want
to have and not feel shame around it. That's very empowering to have that money that you have and just know that you have it. It empowers you. This is that word, empowerment that I love, right? Empowerment. It allows you and empowers you to quit that toxic job, right? It empowers you to get education, hire people to help you. It empowers you to get medical care that you need or that your loved ones need. It empowers you to change a living situation that might not be very helpful for you.
You can also of course donate your money, give to others, be extremely generous. Some of the most wealthy people in our society are very generous, but we have this stigmatization around wealth. That is, wealthy people are greedy, right? We have to really watch those beliefs. You can take care of your loved ones. You can do all the things that bring you joy. At the end of the day, having that financial empowerment allows you to stand on your own two feet without having to financially
rely on other people to support you and that feels very empowering and feels very good. So, yes, of course, I want you, if you're listening to have wealth, of course, I do. I'm not ashamed to say it. I want wealth and I'm not afraid to say it, right? I think we need to talk about it, which is what we're
going to be doing here today. At the end of the day, what Mike and I want to do is create a conversation around having the wealth you want and then utilizing that wealth to empower yourself and others. So, you could make whatever impact on the world you want to make, whatever feels good to you, right? For me, that's starting a business and traveling. That's what feels good to me, right? And we could
talk more about the different kinds of things you can do once you have that kind of money. But either way, it feels good. It just feels good to have and it boosts your self-esteem and boosts your self-confidence. Again, it's not about having millions or hundreds of thousands. Again, it's not about the amount at all. You have to kind of figure out for yourself what that is. So, without further ado, let's jump in.
Let's talk to our personal finance coach here, Mike. I'm very curious and I'm sure our viewers are. Mike, how does one become a personal finance coach? So, my journey of becoming a personal finance coach really starts off like all the way from the beginning, from as a child. So, growing up in a Chinese, Korean, immigrant family in Canada, my family really struggled financially. In our family, we weren't allowed to talk about money.
A lot of secrets were kept about money. Money was taboo. And because we didn't talk about money, we kind of just put all of the problems under the rug and the problems grew and grew until we almost got to a point where we lost the house that we lived in. And so, money was always a very
turbulent topic as a child. And I remember as a kid, I made a promise to myself that I would learn how to manage my own money and manage my own personal finances so that I could take care of myself, so that I could take care of my parents and so that I wouldn't be in this horrible financial situation that we were in. And so, that kind of started my journey of even though as a kid, I really love things like piano and music and creative stuff. I was like, okay, well, I can't do
that because this is too risky and not safe. And so instead, I'm going to do a counting in finance, which is literally the complete opposite. And so, I studied accounting and finance in university. In 2019, I graduated from the Ivy Business School in specializations with finance. And then I started working in corporate finance. And from my education and after reading a dozen of personal finance books, I really learned how to effectively manage my own money. And I was like, oh, I feel safe.
And now I can take care of myself and I could use this knowledge to help my parents and help my family. And then how I ended up getting into becoming a personal finance coach was at the time, a lot of my friends and family members were graduating university. They were getting a job. They were for the first time having to save money and invest their money and pay off their student loans. And they're just like, I have no idea what to do because, you know, in our society,
we're not taught about personal finance or financial literacy. And so as someone who loves my friends, and as someone who wants to take care of my friends and family, I wanted to help them. And so I started coaching just a few friends for free to teach them about personal finance. And after I saw how much it impacted and changed their lives for the better, I was like, I have to share this with the rest of the world. And that's how I started with personal finance coaching. I love that. I know
you do personal finance coaching. I do more life in mindset coaching, but it's that same, like, you light up just as I light up when we have that impact and we help people, right? It's such a wonderful thing to do. So Mike, let's talk about how this affected your coming out without money and without feeling secure with your finances. You really don't feel safe with yourself.
So growing up, I, well, first of all, I am a gay man just to make that clear for everyone. So growing up and like most people listening to this, you kind of already know you're like, okay, I think I'm pretty sure I'm gay. But the thing is that in our society, this is oftentimes not accepted, especially if you come from like an immigrant Chinese Korean family. Also, my family is very Christian or very Catholic. So let's just say it was like totally not a okay. And there is this
statistics where about like 28 of LGBT youth actually experience homelessness. And so growing up in this type of environment, I was like, oh my gosh, I have to hide and I have to restrict and contain myself because I can't let people find out because if people find out, if my parents find out, there's a 28% chance that I might get kicked out and I'm not going to be financially okay. I'm not going to be able to feed myself. I'm not going to be able to, you know, pay for my education.
I'm not going to be able to essentially survive. And so for most of my life, for all of my childhood until like university, I really had to hide the things that I did. I had to not do girly, quote unquote, girly things. I couldn't do things like dancing or singing because these things,
I thought were too girly and it might help me. There are things that I had to do like hiding from my friends and family, parts of myself, which really helped me which really helped me back from creating authentic relationships with them because if you're constantly hiding like a huge major part of yourself from the people that you love, then it's really hard to connect to them in that
deeper level. And so this is how I lived my life for most of my life. And it really wasn't until I graduated university, got a job and became financially independent where I was like, okay, now if my parents decided to kick me out, I'm still going to be okay. If, you know, my parents decide that, okay, we don't want anything to do with you, I still have the ability to take care
of myself and to be who I am. And so it was only until I graduated and became financially independent where I was able to start to become who I truly am, to tell my friends who I am, to do things that I really love like art and music and to also even risk the relationship with my parents because the relationship with my parents was not good, especially after graduation because there was that
rift of just like not telling them who I was. And so after I became financially independent, I was actually able to risk that relationship to come out to them and to tell them and I wouldn't have been able to do that if I didn't have financial security. Yeah. And this is, yeah, and this is why it's so, so powerful to, I think it's so, so powerful for gay men to be financially secure, to be financially independent. So you are able to be
who you truly are and to be the best version of yourself. Totally. And so I have to ask, so what happened when you came out with your parents? I mean, so as you know, because Michael is my life coach, he helped me through this horrible, horrible time. So when I came out, it was very, very difficult. It was not easy. At the time, I hired Michael as my life coach because I knew that this was something that was going to be very, very difficult. I remember telling my parents
and they were just not happy about it. And it was like, they just like pretended that it didn't exist and all of these things. And it was really amazing to have Michael as that support in that person to help me through this time because I'll be honest, I probably wouldn't have been able to do it alone. And if I did do it alone, I would definitely, I'm someone who avoids all of
my problems. So I would definitely like push the problems way, way, way into the future. And they would be years before I, before I would be able to build a good relationship with my parents. And so with the help of Michael and all of the work that we've done together, I've really been able to come to an understanding of who I am and why this is important to me and why it's important for them to accept me for who I am. And today, now we have a very loving and great relationship.
They're perfectly fine with who I am. I may be able to invite my boyfriend over for dinners and stuff like that. And it's like, this is what's possible when you are financially secure and you put in the work to actually be who you truly are and to put in the work to build those authentic relationships. Yeah, that warms my heart because I remember when we first started working together,
it's very different. And so if we can go back to that version of you to see you now, Mike, they would be very, you'd be mind blown, I think, looking back, right? I would. And to be talking about this on in public on a on a LGBT gay podcast, this would not be happening like four years ago. So definitely, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is this is a full circle moment for me. Your story actually reminded me of so I came out at
19. It was in first year university, between first and second year. And I remember my fear was that my parents weren't going to pay for my tuition. And that they're gonna, because what happened is I went away to school and I thought, oh, they're gonna think that I'm gay because I want to wait to school. And they're gonna bring me back, which was at the time like the worst thing I can
make up. That never happened. My parents didn't do that. But it was that fear and like living in that constant stress and fear of like, my life is not my own, my decisions are not my own.
Not granted. I was young. I was 19. I was 20 years old. But I get it. Like I get that feeling and it's such a terrible feeling, even as adults sometimes when we have come to rely on someone else financially, whether it's a parent or partner or something else, even a employer, it kind of attaches us to this thing that is not ourselves and we have to rely on it, even if it's not good for
us. So I think that's a really important piece of the financial empowerment. You know, if you had talked about safety, that's the word we're looking for here, that safety to just know you can make your own decisions and not worry. Yeah, you really feel stuck when you're in that financial situation. When you're, you know, you have to rely on your parents because they might abandon you or you are, you have to like be in that, you know, unhealthy marriage because if you, if you're,
if you get divorced, then you're not going to be able to take care of yourself. You never want to be and feel stuck. And I read this statistic that one of the things that contributes to happiness is really feeling in control of your life to do whatever you want to do and not be restricted or restrained by other things. And the amazing thing is that money does allow you to have control over your life. It allows you the freedom and the options to do what you want to leave an unhealthy
marriage or to, you know, be able to pay for your own tuition for school. Money allows you to do those types of things and which is why I think it's so so important to, to be in a financial situation where you are able to have control of your life. 100% couldn't agree more Mike. So Mike, why would money and personal financial empowerment be important specifically for gay men because don't forget this podcast is, is mainly targeted towards gay men. So what are some specific ways that
that might be more relevant to us? I would say one of the first reasons is to, is access to resources. So this is a mental health type of podcast and one of the biggest stressors for anyone and including gay men is money and is finances. If you're stressed about paying the bills, if you're stressed about, you know, your relationship because you can't leave it, these are major, major stressors that are definitely impacting your relationships, impacting your,
your mental health. And so if you are able to be in a financial situation where you don't have to worry about, about money, then that definitely reduces a lot of problems when it comes to mental health. Another thing that I would say is that money is also a form of power. Money is a microphone and it really amplifies your voice. And the thing that we often forget I think in the gay
community is that we have so many rights today that we didn't have in the past. And it's only because of money and these stories that we were able to tell that allowed us to fight for the rights that we have today and to, to fight for the equal rights that we have. And so I think it's so important to remember that money is part of the reason why we're able to live the free lives that we have today. And lastly, I would say that money really allows
gay people to have freedom and flexibility. I think as gay men, we love to enjoy life and we love to travel and experience life. And as we should and money allows us to do these things. But at the same time, there's also a lot of more difficulties being a gay man. For example, if you want to start a family, it's a lot harder. You can't just get pregnant and have a little baby and have a family. You have to go through so many loops of adoption or surrogacy, which are very, very expensive
procedures and processes. And so what money allows you to do is to have the option to say that if you want a family, you don't have to have a family. But if you want to have the options to, then you actually have the choice. Yeah. And that's the empowering piece. Again, we're going back to options and choice, which is empowering. And I want to go back to what you said about mental health.
That's really important. And I think yes, people are saying, well, yeah, all people need mental health access, but gay men specifically struggle more, fortunately, with mental health issues in general. That would be that addiction, depression, suicidal ideation, all kinds of things, anxiety, everything. So in order to get the help we need, sometimes in a lot of places, therapy, cost money, cautious cost money, all of a self-health care cost money. So it is important to have this
so that we can take care of ourselves. It's not just about, you know, being able to travel and buy nice things and get a nice car to house. It's not about that necessarily. It's also about the basics, right? And I want to just underline that because I was a really good point. Yeah, I want to say that when as gay men growing up, we don't have these role models oftentimes because oftentimes your parents aren't gay men. So you don't have this role model to rely on. And so you either have
to find these role models on your own or you can hire these role models. And in my situation, I was in a place where I didn't have any gay friends. I didn't know any other gay people. I didn't have any gay role models. And I felt really isolating and felt really alone. And I didn't have this support system to be like, what do I talk about with my parents if I come out and like, how do I navigate this world? And so that's the reason why I was lucky enough to be in a
financial situation where I was able to hire a coach, a.k.a. Michael. And he was really my guide and my role model to guide me through this very treacherous land of being a game in this in this world that we live in. Yeah. I think the word that we use a lot on this podcast and and we talk about a lot of shame and that sense of inadequacy. And I think people have a lot of
shame in inadequacy around specifically the topic of money, right? Like people don't think they're making enough for they're in debt and they have shame about their debt or they have shame about the fact that maybe they're not as financially literate or educated as they think they should be or as other people might be. And so when we have shame about any topic but we're talking about finances specifically, but when we have shame, we tend to hide from these conversations. We don't
want to go there because it makes the triggers that shame response, right? So we don't want to talk about how much we earn. We don't want to talk about how much we spend. We don't want to talk about our debt and what we're spending our money on. And so we hide we hide from our own money. We hide from our own personal finances, which creates a very distant relationship with money, which is not
empowering at all. So again, one of the reasons why I really want to do this podcast is to actually you know, for our viewers and listeners, you can hear Mike and I talk about money and finances. No way that's not scary. It's not shameful. It's it's you know, empowering. It's educating. And so I think that for anyone other who does sense that they have some shame around money,
it's the same work. Good thing is it's the same work as you would do around any kind of shame, which is to open yourself up and talk about it with someone that you trust. Yeah, growing up, I mentioned that my parents, they didn't talk about money and they, you know, kept swept a lot of problems under the rug. And the reason for this was because of shame, because they had a lot of shame when it came to money. So they're like, okay, let's not talk
about this. Let's not talk about our money problems. And let's just pretend that they don't exist. The thing is if you don't talk about something, first of all, you don't get educated. Second of all, the problem is just continue to grow and grow and get bigger. And then it becomes this huge massive problem that you have no choice but to confront. And it's so much easier to confront it when it's a little problem instead of a massive, you know, avalanche. Yeah, I think this is a good time
to talk about money mindset. So we have done a podcast about money mindset specifically. And I'll link that in the show notes. But in my mind, I'm curious to hear what you have to say about this. There's two aspects of this conversation. One is like the actual things you do, the making, the earning, the investing, the saving, the kinds of accounts, the tax stuff, all of that. I call them nuts and bolts. But the whole other side of it, the part under the iceberg or under the
surface is the mindset, your mindset around money. So that is what I would call your thoughts, your beliefs about money, your biases about wealth, your biases about rich people, about poor people, right? Your true desires, whether you honor those desires or whether you think that you shouldn't. So that's how I see it. I kind of put it into two categories of mindset work. And then the nuts and bolts work. What would you have to say about that? Yeah, I pretty much do the exact same thing
with my coaching. I have two buckets as well. Like one is a strategy. So the strategy is all of the things about like investing and like what to invest in or like how much money you should be saving and budgeting. Like those are all actions and those are all very strategy related. But then the thing is is that you need to have the mindset in place so that you can take the required actions. Because for example, if you have the mindset of oh my gosh, investing is super risky. I'm not safe.
I'm going to lose all of my money. Your mindset is pretty bad. Then when it comes to investing, what's going to happen? You're probably just not going to invest your money at all because it's too risky and you're going to lose all your money, right? And so that's the reason why it's so important to focus on both. You need to know the strategy, but you also have to have the right mindset in place so that you can implement the strategy in a way that feels good to you and that feels easy.
Yeah, that's a great one. Money is hard. It's not a great mindset and shifting it to like money is fun. That's what I like to use. For me, money is fun. Like it's just math, adding and subtracting, dividing, maybe multiplying. But that's it. It's just math. It's fun. And like, money doesn't lie. Like facts or facts, numbers and numbers. I like that about money. And I personally enjoy doing personal finance. I like spreadsheets. I like that kind of thing. So for me, I find it
enjoyable. But for so many other people out there, a lot of my clients, if they tell me about a money global have or an income goal they want or how much money they want to make, first of all, when I ask that question, sometimes they don't even know. I'm like, well, what are we shooting for here? Do you want a $50,000 kind of salary? Do you want to make six figures? Do you want to make millions? What is that? And why? Right. And so far, so often they don't know what it is they want to make.
And more and more only, when I ask them, okay, well, what are you spending? They don't even know. Right. So again, having that knowledge is power when it comes to finances. And I think it's a lot of people have these beliefs about money because of their money story. All of the thoughts and beliefs that you have about money really comes from your past experiences. So like even when it comes to the math thing, a lot of my clients are like, oh, like, I don't,
I'm not good with money. I'm just not good with because in the past, in high school or in university or in elementary school, I was really, really bad at math. And you had to do like all of these fancy calculus calculations. And then this is the story that they told themselves. So they have this just this mental block when it comes to anything to do with numbers. And so if you want to become better at managing your money, you have to first look at your experiences and be like,
okay, do I want to accept this? Do I want to really believe that I am bad at money? And I am bad at managing money. And you can actually reframe that story to be like, oh, actually, I can be good at managing money because money management actually isn't that complicated. You don't need to do all of the fancy calculus calculations that you've learned in high school. If you can do addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, amazing. You are already the, like, you have all of the
skills you need to manage your money. And so a lot of the work when it comes to getting better at managing your money is really managing your mindset and changing your money story to be like, oh, I actually am good at managing money because I can do addition, subtraction and multiplication. Yeah. I'm curious. What tell us like maybe what was your money story early on in life before you
knew it was a money story versus what is it today? Yeah. So my money story in the beginning when I was growing up was really a story of scarcity as a lot of immigrant or children of immigrants grew up in. So my family, we were not good financially. And even before my parents, like my grandparents, they grew up like extremely, extremely poor. So it was everything to do with like saving money. You can't spend any money because if you spend money and you lose it, then you're going to die
essentially. You're not going to be able to feed yourself. You're going to die. And so this is the type of mindset that I learned and developed from my parents and from my mom. And this was really good when it came to saving money. So I in high school, I got a part-time job as a swimming coach or swimming instructor. And this really helped me to save a lot of money and it helped me to be very conscious when it came to money. But what it didn't help me with was letting go of this money
and to invest it and to spend it. So I remember a time when I went to Poland in 2015, it was on an internship to teach English. And because I was so scared to spend money, I didn't even want to spend money on food. I was like, oh, if I spend money on food, then I am going to die because I don't have any money and I need to not spend any money. And so for two weeks in Poland, I like hardly eight. I like slept for most of those most slept as much as possible to conserve my energy.
And I realized like, oh my gosh, like if this keeps up, I'm literally not going to make it back to Canada. Like I'm going to die. And so that's when that's when that mindset changed when it was like, okay, maybe it is okay to spend money sometimes. Maybe spending money is actually an investment in myself. Because if I'm healthy and if I'm safe and if I'm productive and have all of this energy,
then I can do so many more things. So after I was spending money on food and taking care of myself, then I was able to create so many amazing experiences on this trip and where I was able to backpack all across Eastern Europe and make so many friends. And this was really the first shift of my money mindset. I love it. Do you worry about money now?
I do worry about money now. So when it comes to your money mindset, it's never like you get to a point where you're all good where all of your problems are gone and you don't ever have to worry about money. It really is a kind of like a staircase. You have to build up your belief step by step. And so when I was a child, it was down here where I was like too scared to spend money at all. But as I continue to improve my mindset, it gets stronger and stronger and stronger and it gets
to this point. And I'm not at a point where I don't have to worry about money at all and I like all of my financial problems are set or gone away. But I'm definitely have progressed to a point where money doesn't bother me too much. And I'm really able to live a more fulfilling life where I'm able to travel around the world and have this freedom when it comes to finances. And even though I'm not at the end of my journey, I'm still going working towards the end goal. And there is never
going to be an end goal because that is life. But that is the lovely thing about life is that they're you're always on the journey. And it's never about the destination. It's always about the journey. So while said spoken like a coach, love it. You brought up some really good points about you know, your your your history being from an immigrant family. My parents were also immigrants. So I get that that resonates a lot with me when we're from Italy. But I think there are I think it's worth
talking about. There's a lot of obstacles that come in the way that of our financial empowerment. Right. So you talked about some of some of one being that environment that you grew up in, whether it's a culture that doesn't talk about money or doesn't share about money, whether it's just not having or just being being in poverty as a child, you're going to adopt some some beliefs
that don't serve you. The good news with that is working with a coach. You can go up that staircase as Mike talked about, but what are some other obstacles maybe faced specifically by gay men on the topic of financial empowerment? So in the gay world or in or in our current society, there are quite a few obstacles that gay men's face specifically when it comes to finances. So there is the amount of pay that you're getting. So there are statistics that show that gay men actually make
less money than our straight counterparts. And this is kind of just the reality of things in our current society. And so if you're making lower pay, then if you're making lower pay, then this is an obstacle preventing you from actually becoming more financially secure and more financially stable. Not to mention there's a lot of discrimination still and especially in certain
states in the US where you can lose your job if you are seen as gay. And this is a very very difficult thing to do because if because your job is essentially your way of taking care of yourself, taking care of your family. And if someone can take that power away from you, then that is really, really your ability to even take care of yourself. And so this is why it's so important for gay
men to be in control of their finances and be in control of being able to make money. Because for example, if you are able to make money on your own, then you don't have to rely on an employer or rely on someone to give you that paycheck or to always be giving you money. And so this is like an example of how gay men is like one of the obstacles I gay men face when it comes to finances. Yeah, very well said. And I think the last thing is when it comes to culture. So I think in the
gay culture, we often are very focused on living in the present and enjoying the present. But it's also really important to think about our future as gay men, whether that is having a family or what sort of life do you want to have after all of the partying and after all of these things. These are certain things that we have to think about, but which is often not in our conscious. You know, something just hit me when you were talking about that is that culture we have of like,
oh, I want a daddy, I want a shirt daddy. I'm like, I would never want a shirt daddy. That sounds nice and theory, but the kind of person I am, I would not work for me like I just need to have my own money to do my own thing. I never want to be a reliant or dependent on somebody else. But yet I see so much of that, like so much so many gay guys saying they want this, you know,
usually as an older man, but they think has money and they go for that. And it's just to me, it's a very sad state of affairs in my personal opinion. It's almost like admitting self-defeat. It's like I can't be okay financially. So instead, I'm just going to put all of my eggs into this other person, this potentially stranger who I don't
even know to dictate what I can do with my finances. So it really is the opposite of what we're talking about today, which is feeling empowered with your life and feeling empowered with your finances. Another thing that you said that really struck something within me was when you're talking about discrimination in the workplace. Now I worked in the corporate world for 13 years, I talked about
that before on this podcast. I was out at work so people knew I was gay, but I worked in the financial industry, which is very much a boys club, at least it was when I was there, probably still is. And so I kind of got this sense and I can never prove it, but I kind of got the sense that because I was gay and maybe I didn't have a family like my straight colleagues did or they had kids like because I was gay, I was not going to get the same opportunities of advancement.
Again, I could never prove that, right? So it's just a feeling I have, I don't want to make that very clear, but it still left me with this feeling like I don't like that my salary and my bonus and whatever is going to be determined by someone else, first of all. And then also like and I don't know, I can't prove, but what if they are not punishing me, but what if they are promoting somebody else because they have more income with them? Oh, I have a family and this guy has a family and so,
you know, he needs the money more or he needs this opportunity more. And that never sat well with me. Again, I can never prove it, but I just the fact that I had that doubt in my mind was so, I don't know what the word is, it just created on me. So that's why when I had the opportunity to start my own business, I was like, fuck, yes, I'm not going to let anyone else determine, you know, what my salary is. Instead, I'd rather my clients determine that because I provide you the value,
and then you get to decide whether that's something you want or not. And that to me is so much more empowering, right? I love that for entrepreneurs or anyone other of his entrepreneur really minded, Mike and I can give you a lot of coaching on that as well, but that's not everybody. And I get that. And sometimes having an employer and having a salary provides a lot of security and
stability, that's for sure. But again, it's not about whether you're an entrepreneur or your a salary employee, it's really about looking at it overall, which is where is your money coming from and do you feel like you're in control of that? Yeah, 100% agree. Yeah. Okay, so Mike, I love to end our episodes with giving our audience some actual tangible tips. So what can you tell us about personal finance tips? We talked a lot about mindset stuff. Let's get into what I call the nuts and bolts.
Sure. So you like to call it the nuts and bolts? I like to call it the strategy. So there's the mindset and the strategy. And so when it comes to strategy, I really keep it really simple when it comes to money. So at the end of the day, money management, the strategy is just a skill. And like any skill you
need to be learned, you need to learn and to be taught how to do it. It's kind of like swimming. If you jump into the middle of the ocean and you have no idea how to swim, then you know, you're probably not going to be able to swim very far and you might, you know, drown. But if you are, if you learn how to swim, if you took swimming lessons and if you are a good swimmer and you go into the middle of the ocean and you start swimming, you're going to have amazing time. The ocean is a
beautiful place. And so money management is the exact same way where if you develop your skills with money, then you are able to thrive and you're able to feel empowered. And when it comes to money management, there are really three main skills that you need to learn and master. There's making money, saving money and then investing it. And we can talk, talk more about these three if you want. Yeah, tell me, tell me what that means. Tell me a little bit more. Okay. So when it comes to
making money, this is essentially what it sounds like. You just need to learn how to make money, whether that is from your own job or from your own business. And this is really the life line of your finances because a lot of people, they're like, oh, I need to save more money or I need to learn how to invest. But the thing is, if you're not making enough money to save or invest, then there's no point in saving and investing. So making money is extremely, extremely important.
When it comes to saving money, this is where you want to find a balance between spending money and enjoying life today while saving money so that you can enjoy your future. I think in life, one of our main goals is really just to be happy and to enjoy our life. But the thing is, if we spend all of our money today on luxury goods, traveling and all of these things, we might be happy today, but we're not going to be happy in the future when we have to work until
the day that we die because we can't afford to retire. And so when it comes to saving money, you really want to find a balance between spending money and saving it. And the best way to do this is by creating a financial plan where you are able to set your financial goals, which is your point B, but then also figure out where your point A is, which is your current financial situation. And really just creating that path to get to your financial goals.
And lastly, the third skill is to learn how to invest your money. So when you are investing your money, you're essentially letting go of your money and you're putting it into things that will grow so that you don't always have to have to make money. And you don't always have to, yeah, so that you can grow your wealth even in your sleep. So for example, let's say you wanted to save $100,000 in 10 years. If you just didn't invest your money, you would have to save $10,000 every single year.
But if you were to invest your money instead, you would only really need to save around $6,000 to $7,000 per year instead in order to get to $100,000. So when you're investing your money, you're really working smarter, not harder. And this is what we want to do. Yeah. How would one know where to invest their money? So when people think about investing, they're kind of just like investing in whatever people either tell them to or like what Reddit tells them to or just like based on very generic
information. But the thing about personal finance is that it's very personal to your unique situation. The reason why you're investing is so that you can get from that point A, which is your current financial situation to your financial goals. And so whatever you invest in will directly and should directly relate and help you achieve your financial goals. So for example, investing for retirement is going to look completely different for investing like to buy a house in the
next five years. And so that's the reason why when you try to answer the question of what should I be investing my money, it really goes down to what goal do you want to achieve and what investments will help you achieve that goal that you want to achieve? It's great. It is very personal. I love
that. So when people when people find you, when people hire you, are they coming to you with a particular goal they have in mind or is it more so they want to like their financial world is a mess and they need someone to help clean it up a little bit of everything tell us tell us some examples.
Yeah. So it really comes from a variety of different situations. I would say the most common people that come to work with me is that they I guess a little bit about their finances are they really feel lost with their finances because in our society, we don't really teach people these money skills. We don't teach people about how to make save and invest their money. And so a lot of my clients really want to learn and develop these skills so that they can feel in control and
feel empowered in their lives. And so once they learn how to do the strategy and do these skills, they are really able to do anything with their life whether that's becoming a digital nomad so that they can quit their corporate job and travel or even if it just means to buy a house and have the freedom to have a family. And so on the other end of things as well, it's really focusing on the mindset when it comes to money. Because with each of these skills when it comes to making saving
and investing, there is a mindset component to it as well. For example, I said this example before, but when it comes to investing, if you're like, I'm going to lose all my money and investing is not for me and you know, investing is too complicated, then if you have this mindset when it comes to investing, you're going to find investing extremely difficult and you're probably just not going to
do it. And so part of my work with working with my clients is helping them to fix their money story and to help them change their mindset so that they can feel like, oh, investing is for me and investing is actually pretty damn easy. And so once they think, have this mindset shift, then investing their money and growing their wealth is so much easier. Love it. I think that's really helpful for a lot of people out there, losing my voice again.
This happens on the end of every podcast. I just want to say, I'm so so proud of you. I'm listening to you and I'm watching you, Mike. And I remember, you know, when we first started working together years ago, you have come such a long way. I'm like, Mike was working in a corporate job. He wanted to become a digital nomad. He wanted to launch this business. He wanted to come out and have got a relationship with his parents and have gay friends and like, look at you now. Like, you have
done all of it and I'm so so proud of you. Thank you, Michael. And it's all because of all of the hard work that we both put into our coaching sessions. And what I love about coaching is that you are really the guide and you give me the direction to to where I want to go. And then it's really up to me to put in the work and to put in the effort to to achieve the goals that I want and to
achieve the life that I want to have. Yeah. And you've done it. So good. Those to you. Now, Mike, I'm pretty sure there's going to be a lot of people listening to this who love what you're saying and they want to contact you. Maybe they need some financial help. Where can people find you? Amazing. So people can find me on Instagram. I'm at Michael Lee Kim. So Michael E. Kim. I also have a website, www.Michael Lee Kim. Spelt the same way. And I also have a new YouTube channel. So I started
a YouTube channel about a year ago and I post every single week. So I have amazing videos about personal finance and it's all free content. So you guys can check it out. And I also have a podcast on YouTube called the Personal with Money Podcast. So this is where we invite amazing guests, such as my friend Michael over here, where we talk all about money. And I bring people who are entrepreneurs, people who are just regular people. And we just have conversations about money.
And we don't make money taboo. Money is not taboo there. And we talk about all of our money stories, how we feel about money. And it's just a really great place to get started and to feel inspired with your finances. Love it. I'm going to put all this in the show notes. So for anyone who's watching or listening, go down to the show notes and I'll link all the stuff there. Please check out Mike and get that money story nice and clean and sorted so that you can have that financial
requirement that we both want you to have. Any last words, Mike? I would say if you are someone who wants to learn about personal finances, just really start from the beginning. You don't have to start investing your money and do all of these fancy things. Just really start with education. Kind of think of it as you're learning a new language. When you're learning a new language, you have to learn the basic words and the basic nouns and the basic structures of the sentences.
And it's the same thing when it comes to money. You have to learn the very basic skills. And once you learn the basic skills, you can build upon it and then continue to build. And then eventually you'll find yourself that you're able to speak the language of money. And you'll be able to use this language or use this skill in order to create the life that you want.
Love it. Beautiful ending here. Okay, thank you, Mike, for coming on to the show today. Thank you for talking about this very important topic and helping our viewers and listeners get more empowered. Thank you, viewer and listener, for sticking with us for this episode. I, like I said at the beginning, I know it's not a topic we cover a lot, but I do think it's very important,
certainly very important to me personally. And if you're listening to this, please give us five stars and a review and a rating on whatever podcast platform you're listening to us on. If you're watching on YouTube, go ahead and ask Mike or I a question in the comments. We will be responding. We'll be there. We'll say hello. Ask us questions. Give us your own money
story. We'd love to hear it. And for those of you who are in the Game and Brotherhood Facebook group, don't forget to join us on the last Thursday of the month for the Game and Brotherhood Zoom Hangout. All right, guys. Have a great week and we'll talk to you next week. Bye-bye.