Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast by the Gay Men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. Today we are your hosts, we have Matt Lensittle, he is a counsellor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. Reno Johnston is a spiritual life, love and business coach. I am Michael Diario, a life and wellness coach, specializing in sexuality, relationships and self-confidence.
We each have our own private practice and in this podcast we are sharing all of our best stuff. Today we are talking about the fear of intimacy. The questions we will be discussing today are, what makes it hard for you to get close to someone and why do you think that is? What has helped you become more comfortable with intimacy? We will be continuing this discussion in the last Thursday of the month in the Gay Men's Brotherhood sharing circles.
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And if you're listening to us on a podcast platform, please subscribe, leave your review and your five store rating. This helps us get into the ears of people who need us. Okay, the theme of this month is facing your fears. We did a great episode a couple of weeks ago on the fear of rejection. And today we're talking about the fear of intimacy. So another word to describe this is intimacy avoidance. We use that word a lot here in the podcast.
So this is in the first time we've talked to it, but it's the first time we've had a full episode about it. And simply put, if you're wondering what this means, the most simple definition I can come up with for you is a fear of emotional closeness. I just want to make a note that this episode we're talking about emotional intimacy.
There is also such a thing as a fear of physical intimacy as well, but we're focusing on the emotional piece today, which may or may not be linked to a fear of physical intimacy as well. They could very much overlap for sure. Okay. Alright, so some of the key points I want to make on the fear of intimacy to help you set the stage for our episode today is that oftentimes this fear of intimacy isn't overt or clunches. Sometimes it's lingering beneath the surface. We don't know what's there.
Other people might say, oh, no, this is for sure me. I know I have this either way. You're welcome to join us on this. This will be a great episode for everyone. So people can often crave intimacy and closeness, but then push people away when it becomes available or very real. And that might be one of the signs I'm going to go over some signs later on.
Or you could end up sabotaging really good relationships, which is unfortunate because it leaves you feeling jaded lonely and feeling like something might be wrong with you or that you're fundamentally flawed, which is not the case. And that's why I think it's really important that we talk about this. My hope today is that our discussion will help you recognize if you have any resistance to intimacy within you.
And so that you can do something about it, but also you can recognize it within others. And so you can develop a deeper understanding of why would they maybe pulling away from you. And so that you can better relate with them. So yeah, let's talk about some common signs. And before I do this, I want to know that these are not exhaustive and having any one of these or a few of these does not necessarily indicate a fear of intimacy. There could be other underlying issues that are not related.
Okay, but these are just a few signs. Difficulty trusting others. Or you're generally suspicious of those who want to get close to you. You just generally have a suspicious mind. You ask you personal questions. You may prefer casual relationships that come and go over developing a long lasting commitment. So this could be something like serial dating going on one or two dates and calling it quits. Or preferring just casual sexual relationships. Then, you know, getting close with somebody.
It could be preferring connecting with people online on apps versus actually going on dates and having in person connections. It could be having a lot of acquaintances. You might have a lot of people in your life, but very few close friends. You could actually turn to for emotional support. If you don't like opening up to others about your innermost thoughts and feelings. If you feel a resistance to that, that might be a sign.
Or like I said, you tend to push people away when they want to get closer to you emotionally. Or when other people show you their vulnerability, you may want to withdraw and become distant from them. So when other people express their emotions, you kind of like panic freeze. Don't know what to do. And as I said earlier, you maybe have a history of sabotaging relationships when things start to get serious. You may call it intense or serious or you might have another word for it.
But you're like, on and on. I got to go. You can't do this. And you back away. Or you sabotage the relationship. So at the core of the fear of intimacy is vulnerability. And grenade brown defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. So we're going to carry that thread with us throughout this episode today. At the core of emotional intimacy is an avoidance of vulnerability. It's an unwillingness to want to be vulnerable. So vulnerability is at the key here.
You know, we don't let that guard down. We don't let people in. We don't expose. I love that word, our true feelings, fears, desires, experiences with another human. Right. And there are a lot of reasons why I think we find it hard to be vulnerable or authentic. Specifically for gay men. And that is as we talked about in the last episode, a fear of rejection and abandonment. So being vulnerable, that emotional exposure opens us up to the pain of rejection. We're pretty much asking for it.
Not asking for it, but opening up to the possibility of it. Very similarly, it's a fear of being judged or ridiculed by having the vulnerability by exposing yourself emotionally. There's also a lot of societal and cultural conditioning around masculinity. That tells us that vulnerability is a weakness and that men should be stoic. We shouldn't show our emotions. There might be a fear that you will lose your autonomy and independence. So all the lone wolves out there.
You know, we become very self-sufficient, perhaps, and the idea of letting someone else in threatens that safety. And then don't forget that when we're in the closet, being in the closet for a long period of time, teaches us the opposite of vulnerability and authenticity. It teaches us to hide what we truly are. We are, we learn how to keep others away from learning too much about us. We literally have to stay in the closet for our own safety.
But that teaches us to keep people away. Right. So we kind of have this learned behavior of hiding. Now, and coming out of the closet doesn't mean that you leave all that behind you in the closet. That doesn't disappear from that. That tendency stays with you. Those behaviors tend to stay with you unless you're very conscious of them. And then the biggest one, I would say, is past traumas.
Such as childhood or past relationships. So if you've been betrayed, if you've been hurt, if you've been rejected, if you've been abandoned, if you've been hurt by others in the past. Obviously, the tendency is to armor up, going forward. Okay. We're going to be resilient. We're going to armor up and we're going to build that wall.
And I think there's quite a few of us that fall into this category. Some kind of pain from the past, whether that is in childhood or relationships or maybe you and both. So it's instinctual and seems like a good idea to protect yourself and guard yourself against further pain. So we learn not to let people in, keep your cards close, build those walls. And that's how you get guarded and suspicious even. And you find it hard to trust because you have been hurt. It makes perfect sense.
Nothing has gone wrong here, right? But that armor that's meant to keep you safe, gets heavy over time, and actually keeps people away. It keeps you isolated and feeling lonely. On one hand, you're hurting for a deeper connection. And then on the other hand, keeping it wanting to keep yourself safe. So how do you find that balance? Right.
So you might find yourself with many superficial or casual relationships, keeping people out of an arm's length, close, but just close, not close, but not too close from developing closer bonds because it feels safer that way. So let's get started into the conversation, guys. I think I've set the stage. Good and well. So the first question we have is, what makes it hard for you to get close to someone and why do you think that is? And let's start with Matt today.
I knew it was coming. I knew it was coming. I had a job, Michael, you walked. I felt very seen, very exposed in that. I was like, okay, yeah. I check off a lot of those or at least have in my past, but still check off some of them. It's really hard to have this conversation with O talking about attachment. Really, attachment is that like if there's any attachment injuries or wounds around connecting with people.
The fear of intimacy will form out of that. So for me, I had a fairly challenging childhood, lots of volatility in the home. Both my parents had experienced trauma. And then that was passed on to me. So it was like a very, very challenging home life. And I developed a fearful avoid an attachment style, which is otherwise known as disorganized.
It's a very confusing attachment style to have because you want or I want closeness, but then everything in my development taught me that closeness leads to pain and heartbreak and these sorts of things. So I shelled off and I built up all these like mechanisms and walls around me. And that's what I've been really working on for the last 20 years, probably on healing this attachment style. I didn't realize it was an it was attachment trauma until probably nine years ago, something like that.
Yeah, so I've been doing a lot of work on this and there's I want to use a framework to offer up some information today and I'll try and relate myself to it personally, but there's a practitioner, his name is Dr. John Van App and he has a model of attachment, which is includes five stages.
And the way he teaches this is he teaches that in order for you to move from one step to to the next, you have to have completed this first step and then you move on. I might have taught this at one point that's so many episodes now, I can't even remember, but if not, I think this is a very important model. And I use it a lot in my own personal life.
First step is to know to know somebody the second step is to trust them. So once we know somebody we can then trust them, once we trust somebody we can rely, once we can rely on somebody we can commit and once we commit to somebody we can have touch.
Last step for me is where I don't necessarily agree, I think touch can be blood in through all of them. So I kind of like the four stage with the fifth being kind of blood within whenever it feels safe, but for some people they need to have that commitment in order to feel safe to share their body with somebody for some people they don't.
Most of my life, I did touch and then I would try to commit and then I would, you know, I did it backwards to be completely honest and then I would get to this no stage and be like, wait a minute, I've committed to you, I've relied on you and I've tried to trust you, but yet I don't even know who you are.
Right, and that's where I kept perpetuating this, this injury of getting hurt and attracting people and so I'm trying to go through each one and I'm trying to answer the question directly and what makes it hard for me to get close to someone in each stage really. So for in order to get to know somebody, I struggle that the person isn't going to be who they say they're going to be and a lot of my life, I think I confused people's potential for the reality of who they are.
And that likely comes from childhood trauma, right, I was almost like had a tolerance to red flags from my childhood, so like when I would go on dates or start dating people, I wouldn't be able to see these things because they were just so normal and natural from my upbringing and once I would get involved with them and I would start to try and move beyond this stage of like trying to trust them.
I didn't feel like I knew who they were. It's almost like my filter was skewed or my I had blinders on or something, so I have, so I carry a lot of fear in that one, like really it takes a lot for me to to let somebody into my sphere and I really take time to get to know somebody, but then under the under the trust area, I think for me, I carry a strong fear of being betrayed.
Again, like there was stuff that happened in my childhood where the people that I was supposed to be protected by and connected to and they were supposed to take an interest in me and love me and protect me, I didn't feel like I had that right, so it's almost like I carry this belief a lot of my life of like well if those people weren't there for me to support me, then why on earth would Joe below that I'm dating right I carried this very strong belief and I actually still carry this with me and I'm doing a lot of work on trying to heal this.
And then that leads into to rely so I have again this core belief that people aren't going to be there for me in the way that I need them to be. Being empathic and intuitive and sensitive as a young child like this is where I also have compassion for my parents because I was a quite a complex kid and my parents didn't know how to support me, so but I still carry that wound of like nobody's there to support me, no one really gets me right and so I shut down.
I shut down, I tried to fit in or be normal or any sort of things but really I was just denying who I was and that part of that it comes with being gay too like being gay was a very complex thing that I had to navigate we all had to navigate as young boys and it was really challenging so.
And then when it comes to commit I think I carry a pretty big fear around like what if I fall madly in love with somebody and they X Y and Z fill in the blank like my mind goes to all these places like what if they don't feel the same way about me what if they leave me what if they cheat on me these sorts of things so I carry a lot of this like fear which again fearful avoid an attachment style right it's like it's characterized by this hot cold like I'm.
I want it but I'm scared of it kind of thing. And then I would say touch I had a hard time with this one because I think all of these precursor ones being a demisexual like these really really set the stage for me feeling like safe and secure to want to share my body with somebody.
So I feel like I've actually reversed these now and I do actually do do that for the most part like you know the odd time it's not like I need like full commitment from somebody to share my body but I want to know them I want to trust them and I want to know that there's somewhat reliable do I need to have a commitment with them not necessarily but I think the first three steps are really important for me to feel safe to share my body.
But I do notice that I carry some fears within this area around is my body enough and feeling like we come from quite a hyper sexualized very body centric community and it's like I don't know I have this judgment towards the community that it's like it's not enough one body is not enough like there's the whole thing about novelty and variety and it's like you know so I really would want to attract a partner who is monogamous and can see.
Beyond this notion of like I need 10 bodies to feel satisfied it's like they are more heart centric and I think they want more like they're going for the heart so when they're making love and they're connecting with my body they're like feeling my heart and my soul so that would be enough so I think there's this energy around like I would want to be enough so the fear that I carry in dating would be am I enough and my enough for this person so I'm always assessing that you know what I mean and it's a heavy thing to carry right.
Because I think part of that comes from my own insecurities of not feeling like I'm enough and I think that's one of the things I'm really working on right now is like finding that true deep deep worth where I know I'm enough and even if it did happen worst case scenario that I would be okay and I would be enough for myself you know so I think the top five that I see for in myself in as far as fears that really affect me.
So getting close to somebody and being intimate would be the fear of not being enough the fear of abandonment the fear of betrayal and the fear of rejection which should be very much about coming at me those things coming towards me and me having to experience that.
That's really big for me is the fear of hurting somebody because in all of my relationships I've always been the one that's ended it and in a couple of them I fell out of love with the person or I lost attraction to them so the relationship ended and being an empath like the pain that I could feel in that person that I heard it was almost just as painful for me right so I do carry that a lot is I don't want to hurt people and it's very much a codependent thing but it's also a compassion thing.
I really just have a lot of compassion for for human suffering and I don't like to see people suffer so yeah that's my best take at it this like you said this is so alive there's so much stuff in this area for me because I carry quite a big fear of intimacy but I also want to acknowledge and I'll wrap up here I want to acknowledge that I have done a tremendous amount of work in this space for myself personally and I have a ton of security in my attachment style as well and I don't want to dishonor that I feel like I'm not going to be a person.
I've done a lot of work in this area and I feel like I know how to show up and be vulnerable I know how to take relationships at an X level I know how to respect my body and really take it slow and lead people in to me right so I think I've learned a lot and I feel like I've come a long way so I really wanted to just bring voice to that as well.
Great, Sharon. I love that model. I think correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you taught that in the better building better relationships course. Did you do that there? Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, good point. That's where I taught it. So I don't think I taught it in here, but I think I taught it in the the course material. Yeah, it's one of the lessons there for anyone who's interested. Yeah, yeah, it's a great model in my opinion. Yeah. Reno.
What about you? There's a lot there. Yeah, yeah, right. You know what? I feel really raw for some reason and it's interesting. I'm not really sure. Maybe it'll come through, but it's like I feel like if you poked me, I'd probably cry right now for some reason. Yeah, and I don't know what that's about. It's really interesting. Now, and I'm comfortable with it and I'm comfortable sharing it. But there's like a tenderness around this topic for some reason.
You know, what's interesting is when I read the first question, my immediate response was, well, I don't, I don't really feel like this is something that I struggle with. And I think that that's. I'd say that's pretty accurate now. But when I was younger, not so much. I'm really just going to speak from my heart in a big way here and say that what I remember was this little boy who was so open. And so this is probably why. Okay, my heart was telling me things before I even got speaking.
I just remember this little boy who was like so heart open, eyes open, arms open, like available to the world. Ready to like try things and connect with people, super curious, full of wonder. And, and there were times where like that was met and nurtured and nourished and honored. And then there were times where it really wasn't. And all of those beautiful qualities that I think gave way to the potential for intimacy. We were, we're at least taken for granted and at most.
How would they say like they made me a target. They made me a target. And, and so. Yeah, I think that's where the struggle with this question comes from because I think I've always excelled at intimacy. And it wasn't until I started to recognize that it wasn't safe for me to engage in that way that I started to pull back. And, and then what, what, what would happen is I would test people. I became a bit, a bit sharper, a bit, a bit more prickly.
And, you know, specifically with men, they would come into my life and, and I would test them. And I would test them to see if it was safe for me. I would test them to see if they would stick around. I would test them to see if I could be intimate as well. And I imagine in their own way, I see this now, maybe I didn't in the past, they might have been doing the same as well. You know, I can look back at some of these people in my life.
And I can have, I can hold them in forgiveness and empathy and compassion. Because I know that those people themselves were deeply hurting. And I, I actually can sort of recall in some ways and awareness of what was going on behind the scenes in their own lives. And why it might have been really hard for them to be intimate. And what's interesting is that I can remember one of my best friends when I was a child, he went from my bully to my best friend.
And, you know, what I saw was that in his households, there was a lot of volatility, a lot of volatility. And it really, it really broke my heart to see. And he came with this toughness in the beginning. And there's time went on and we got close. And there's, yeah, there's so much emotion here, but we became really, really good friends. And we opened up to each other. And I just got to see this beautiful softer, kinder side of this person as a result.
And I think that this has been a big part of my life's work and my life's journey. You know, life seems to either have placed me with or placed with me. These men who, and my experience come in struggling with intimacy themselves. And, and maybe I am too, I'll alone that as well that there are situations where certainly I am as well. And over time, it seems like those walls start to come down.
And then we start to open up and reveal more and more of ourselves gradually. And then there's something really beautiful and amazing that happens and what we start to find is we have so much more in common than, then, then we don't, you know, and so that's been really amazing.
I didn't, I didn't know that I was going to answer this question this way. It's really interesting. I made some notes and, and I just the whole time we were going up to have this conversation. I was like, there's something going on in the background right now. And I don't know whether it is, but I'm going to listen to it. And I'm just going to let it speak. So, the other thing I'll say is, yeah, I definitely used to push people away sometimes, you know.
And that's part of that testing piece. And I think it wasn't until there's two pieces to this one is, one is, and I guess I'll talk more about this in the next question, but I, I, I became at home within myself, you know, I think that was like a huge piece is like I became at home within myself. And, and I started opening up more, and I met people who were curious about what was happening for me when those walls came up, and that was really helpful.
Rather than taking it personally, they met it with curiosity, and they met it with compassion. And that allowed me to kind of tease that out and sort of explore like, okay, what is going on here? And I remember someone explicitly, one of my former partners who was like, one of my best friends in the whole world, like he's my ride or die. It's amazing.
And, you know, I remember we were in the bedroom one time, and he sat up and he said to me, what's going on with you right now? Like what's happening? And it was genuine, you know, and I just thought, wow, it snapped me out of this trans. And I just started sharing. And that was one of the first times that someone had had met that pain with curiosity and compassion.
And it allowed me to begin a healing process that took actually months and maybe maybe even years, but you know, there was progression. And it was very visible and very obvious. And I feel like I'm I'm I'm a very, very different person than I was previously. And I think I think that might be all that I want to say.
I guess I would wrap it saying like I listed some things around like experience, rapport, trust, shared values, reciprocity, mutual interest in respect, you know, past experiences, judgements, projections, environmental factors, identity and ego as things that would get in the way of intimacy. That's just sort of a list that I had written down. I don't need to go into detail, but yeah.
I think I'd leave it there. There's probably so much more I could say it's such a juicy topic. But yeah, thank you for the prompt and Michael. They always are juicy, juicy topics on this podcast. That's why we love it so much. Right. Thank you, Reno, for sharing that and thank you for kind of being part centered and really going with your intuition there and having that very vulnerable moment with all of us. In many ways practicing intimacy. Thank you.
What was the question? I was so wrapped up in the story. What makes it hard for you to get close to someone and why do you think that it's okay. I would say historically. I have done, I mean, I have done a lot of work on this in the last 10, 10 years, especially. But historically, it was a, it was a, I don't want you to see the things that I was most insecure about.
I don't want you to see my pain. I don't want you to see my loneliness. I don't want you to see my perfection. I don't want to see my shame. So I would kind of keep people away. I was the guy who I was talking at the beginning about having casual or superficial relationships and not getting closer. That was me because it's relatively easy for me to meet people. It's relatively easy for me to connect with people. But once things started to get close, I was like, right, I'm out here.
I'm just not not doing it. And so before I was aware of all of this, all of the stuff about intimacy, vulnerability, attachment, all those things, I, I would attempt to satisfy my need for intimacy with sex, because in my mind, those were the same thing. I thought, okay, this is the same thing, but it obviously was leaving me wanting more because the kind of sex I was having was not necessarily the emotional was not necessarily an emotionally intimate experience.
It could have been, but it was not what I was doing. I was basically binging on sexual encounters while starving for the thing that I truly craved. I didn't understand why and I didn't know, I didn't know what was going on. But once I made that distinction and I talked about my story a lot here, that light bulb went off and I was able to adjust my behavior.
So less chatting on grinder, more in person dates, less quick gym sex with a guy whose name I don't know more cuddle sessions on myself over hours at a time, somebody that I am getting to know. And so now I would say that's my, that's maybe like my past now that I have a clear understanding of what I'm craving, I can align my actions according to in accordance with what I'm trying to satisfy, because sometimes I do just want the quick stuff and sometimes I do want the emotional intimacy.
And yeah, so that's that. That was then though, I think it's important to share that because I do think there's a lot of people who might resonate with that and that that might be there now, right. But then when I asked this question, it's funny because I came up with this question, then when I want to answer it, I'm like, I don't know how to answer this.
So similar to you guys, I had a really hard time thinking about this. And so, you know, I think what it is for me now is more of that maybe going back a bit to that lone wolf tendency within me.
I'm very discerning and protective of my time and energy as I get older and I don't want to waste my time. So it's not so much about a fear of letting someone else in because I'm afraid to be vulnerable and afraid to for them to see my flaws and my securities and my failures and my shame, because I mean, I talk about it on a podcast thousands of people each week.
So that's not that's not the same. I feel like I can do that. It's more about a fear of them messing up a good thing that I got going on. I know that makes sense. So like it's not that I'm afraid to be vulnerable. It's just that I've built a great life for myself and I'm very protective of letting someone into that space for fear of them disrupting the good thing about going on. So yeah, sure.
Like maybe it's like, you know, you let someone in and then they betray you and then they they do something. So there is that aspect of it. It's, I guess the rejection isn't there as much, but it's more so like things are good. Don't mess it up.
That's kind of like what it is. So if we're going with Bernabé Brown's definition, she had said risk of uncertainty. That's what it is. It's more so the risk of something coming in and like fucking things up and then the uncertainty of them being in my life as well, not as much the emotional exposure piece.
So a great example of this was a tip me in a big way while I was in Mexico in the winter. You guys know it was there by myself working remote doing my thing all over Mexico is great. One item particular I went for a beautiful walk on the beach in Zipolite for those who you've been, you know, there's huge waves crashing on the shore.
It's a quieter spots. There's not much light pollution. There's a lot of stars in particular that night. And I was just like, it was one of my first nights there and I was just walking along the beach just admiring and as I do expressing gratitude for my life. I have a good life, pretty much happy, healthy, effectively living my dream. And then in that same breath, I said, I wish I had someone who could enjoy this moment with me.
So I want the thing. I want that person. I want that man. But at the same time, I feel like I put up a lot of barriers in a way of like just, you know, Matt, you went to your going back to your model. I feel like my model has become bigger and longer as I've gotten older like it's harder for me, not harder.
I'm just maybe more discerning. I think that's the word I want to use to trust and let people in. And that's what it is. It's not that I'm afraid to show myself I would love to. I definitely want that. I know I want that. But it's a is it worth a risk. That's that's where I'm at. So this takes us really nicely into our second question, which is shifting gears and saying, what has helped you become more comfortable with intimacy?
No, there's so much here guys. I'm like, where my brain's like running in like, oh, my God, where do I take this? I want to just say to Reno, thank you for sharing that. It's such a beautiful like an authentic relating. That's what we do. We take from the background and bring it to the foreground.
The front, the foreground is always what we think people want. And then when we've talked from the background, it's always like the truest part within us. And it was really beautiful to witness that in you. So thank you. Thank you. I felt really held by both of you guys. I did see that. Yeah. And I heard myself in your story in two ways within myself. Yes. But also within our dynamic when we first met.
It was a lot of stuff. We mirrored things to each other. And it was like everything you shared was. And it was it's cool to hear that because we have so much insight now that this relationship between you and I has really gifted us. If we didn't go through that, we wouldn't have seen certain things that we mirrored to each other. And I think for that, I'm just I'm super grateful. And it's nice. I may touch on it a little bit later to three. Yeah. Okay, I'm glad I have your permission.
Yeah. Of course, you brought that up. It definitely came to mind. And it's been beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. And then I wanted to comment on what you said, Michael, because you said your stages are more drawn out and longer. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I think that's a good thing. And I think as we get older, we have more trial and error, more scar tissue, we can slow things down more. And not just anyone will do.
So this whole point of like, are they going to come in and disrupt my life? Well, I want to take it slow and make sure that they are not a disruptor that they're going to come in and compliment my life. So I think it's just a testament to like your work and your maturity. So yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And you know, I talked a bit about attachment style in this episode, and I wanted to just point out for those of you who have not taken our attachment style quiz.
It's in the show notes, go and take that and find out what your attachment style is. Because that's how I would answer this question. Like what has helped me become more comfortable with intimacy. Step one for me was learning my attachment style. Yes, I'm disorganized. I'm fearful of avoidant. Okay, what do I need to do? What are my fears? How do I need to mitigate them? How do I need to get my needs met in these new ways?
Huge, super huge for me. And I think like the fear of intimacy is one of the greatest intimacies that are one of the greatest fears that lurks in the shadows. It is so elusive and it's hard to put our finger on it because there can be a lot of stuff in there that's like the ego is trying to protect us from feeling that fear. So it takes a lot of awareness and discernment and these things to really track what that fear is connected to.
At least for me, it was a lot of fucking work to try and pinpoint it. And then once I pinpointed, I was like, oh my god, I have to go into these deep, deep trenches to do this deep trauma work to heal this, which was really challenging for me. So the biggest one for me, what has helped me, I would say slowing things down. Right. If I was confusing somebody's potential for the reality of who they are against slowing things down and getting to know somebody, well, guess what?
If I slow things down, get to know somebody and I'm not fucking them on the first date, then it's like it for me, that's a big thing that helps me get closer to somebody without going too far activating my fear and then having to pull back. My attachment is fearful avoidant. I go in and then I pull back. So if I go in slower, there's a less likelihood I'm going to pull back. Right. I really got to slow down. That's been the biggest one for me. And that's actually really hard.
I'm just faced in honor of this enjoy the progression as opposed to just being so impulsive, which is how I was in my 20s. I was very impulsive. I would move towards the physical right away and I wouldn't really get to take the time to know somebody. And then you spoke about this Michael about vulnerability. I think vulnerability for me is again, it's a skill I've had to learn and it has helped me tremendously to, you know, again, all of the past partners that I've had within the last five
years have no one my attachment style. I lead with it. I go in, I'm like, okay, here's my pattern. Here I have this file in my phone that says attachment and I've got all the stuff unfierful avoidant. I usually send it to people as we get to that stage in the relationship so they can understand my patterning and they can help me. They can support me. They can, we call it like prefacing core wounds. If you have a core wound of abandonment,
can you advocate for the person to reassure you that they're not going to leave? That's how we can like, as partners, we can support each other and, you know, help each other with some of these fears. And the only way we can do that is if we lead with vulnerability and share that we have these insecurities, right? And then that's one piece. The other side is like shadow work, like doing my own work because I can't expect somebody to always hold this stuff. Like I have to also be able
to hold myself and like take care of my own needs and and address those sorts of things. So the shadow work for me has really pointed out, again, my upbringing, like my wounds, my scars, the things that I endured as a child that put the walls around me, right? I had to, I had to meet those parts of myself. My inner child, my inner teenager, I had to go back to these parts of myself
and I had to integrate, which I'm still doing that work. I'm still trying to integrate that little one and that that teenager and but the more and more I do that integration work, the more and more I'm at peace with myself and I can start to come into intimacy. And then the last thing I'll say is self-compassion. I'm I'm a late lumer in this area. I'm just learning what true self-compassion is
at this stage of my life. And it's it's it's a gift. It really is a gift of spaciousness and patience and understanding and kindness towards myself that yeah, I had some shit that I had to deal with when I was younger and it's shaped who I am in a big way. And that I can hold that that those parts of myself and say like you're doing good, you know what I mean? It's okay, like it's okay to carry fears in love and relationships because most of us do right. And I think that's the energy that I'm
bringing into into myself now and it's helping, helping a lot. So yeah intimacy is so beautiful. I don't I don't want to miss out on it, you know what I mean? Yeah. When I heard you saying that last bit about compassion, I always there's this like Mama archetype in me that comes up and I just wanted to be like Kahn Mama. I'm like Mama. Yeah, I got you. I got you.
That's sweet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what what like well first I guess I want to say like I really appreciate that you brought up our dynamic map because something that I want to say something want to speak to with regard to it is that like I think and who knows maybe maybe
one day we'll get on here and do like a like a two-way podcast episode or so and maybe it's three on just on that alone because it was such a transformative experience for me, you know, is like I came into the community and you know and like and then we connected and there was this whole unfolding that took place and I feel like in there there were ways in which I had sort of projected onto you. It was like playmate, crush, leader, like all these different sort of projections, right?
And then I think over time as we got closer, you know, there was sort of this like there was sort of this mess like my stuff came up, your stuff came up and we worked through it and like that's simplifying it because it was really challenging but look at like look at where we are now
and and I think this speaks to intimacy because like I have so much trust for you like I hold a lot of there's a lot of trust in our relationship and on our dynamic and I feel like that has so much to do with the fact that we went through so much shit together that and came out the other side still
connected and still supportive and and even closer I would say and so it's like intimacy's easier you know the trust is there the rapport is there so it's pretty amazing to see I think it's quite a testament to what's possible for people you know in general yeah um did you want to say yeah
I want to say something go ahead yeah strong intuitively and I wanted to share it and I'll speak it from an ownership place that I want to put it into you yeah but like I grew up in a chaotic home okay so how I got my intimacy needs met was I would create chaos or I would participate in chaos
and then it would everybody would be throwing throwing off and then we would try and come to back together so I learned that chaos and conflict actually lead intimacy and it's interesting because we played out that dynamic and why I said I didn't want to project that on to is because I feel
or perceive that you had a similar upbringing where that's true for that intimacy that we played out that dynamic which was that's what I learned from our relationship the most is like yeah and I would be like how dare you Reno like how dare you play this out and then I realized I'm so triggered
by this because I did it too yeah right so that's really powerful someone said that to me once too they were like um there was someone else they said to me uh you know like you don't have to create drama in order to have intimacy and connection I was like yeah okay because I didn't know I got
it's like it was it's just it was second nature to me I didn't know you know I didn't know and I was like oh wow I can just I can just ask for it wow who knew you know I just want to be close to you period right um yeah wow actually that's interesting because I mean I think it ties into yeah the
last question was like what helped you become more comfortable with intimacy yeah um I think like what came up was I one one thing is I stopped making myself responsible for someone else's experience and and I started holding and honoring and prioritizing my own um it like I became home for myself
and within myself and because I was able to like because I've become more capable of holding and trusting it's like everything that I'm looking for in them in order to be safe let's say to be safe to be comfortable to be at home within myself I've cultivated within
myself so that I can just come like home in myself connected to myself whole in myself so it's like you know previously what I saw was there was this like push pull hot cold dynamic um you know fear of losing myself fear of being trapped or like loss of freedom um fear of losing them you know
and now it's like I'm not afraid to lose them because I know I'll be okay you know and and I just became comfortable with just like being just being within myself and just being with what is and that that has been a game changer there's um what's really alive for me right now is
I met this guy um and he's a dear friend now and it's it's it's amazing how quickly we've become closed like some of my friends were like who is this guy like where did he come from and like what's well like what's the deal here and I'm like I don't know I just at what I said was I met him
and I felt like there was a connection there and then I just decided that I love him you know it's just like I just decided to love this guy you know it's like he's awesome I just really appreciate him all his quirks and you know and there's like there's so much there's layers there
like we'll sit for hours and just get like into it deep and it's really really beautiful and really special and the other night like um he he came over we made dinner together we hung out and then we spent the night and we cuddled and like we're just friends and then the next morning I woke up he was leaving the room and I came out later and he was in the kitchen making chocolate dip strawberries figs and bananas and I was just like this is so sweet and we just spent like the after the morning
together in part of the afternoon and you know I was talking about like romanticizing our friendships and how like I don't feel like I'm at a loss when I'm single because I romanticize my friendships and not in this like you know I feel the need to like clarify what that means but it's just like
I don't know all the stuff that I would do with the partner might it's like the sex let's say it's like why can't I have that in my relationships with the people I'm close to who decided that who made that story up if it's possible if it works for both of us then why not and so um
yeah I think like that that has also helped me become more comfortable with you know with intimacy is just like giving myself permission to be prioritizing my experience you know and um and like doing the work I guess I know that's like a loaded statement but it really is like doing the work I think
a lot of the work is just like there's a quote and then I'll shut up um St. Thomas says if you bring forth what is within you what is within you will save you and if you do not bring forth what is within you what is within you will destroy you I've said this quote on here so many times because
there's just like words still live by and so for me that's been like my practice constantly just like bring it forth bring it forth so yeah I love that thanks it's beautiful and if this gentleman wants to come over and make some food at my place he's more than welcome to
Hey these are delicious even the love there's plenty of him to go yeah yeah yeah yeah uh okay um yeah you guys as I always said you know all the great things I went underline that self-awareness huge one huge huge huge one yes having the awareness to know like we talked
to it in the beginning to to know if this is you is a good chunk of the battle as they say and what Reno is saying about loving himself and that self-compassion piece which you both talked about I think are two of the biggest ones for me if we talked about intimacy and that definition
is exposing yourself to the emotional risk right if you're going to expose yourself to emotional risk you have to have the skill of loving yourself having your own back and believing in yourself self-compassion all that stuff that which we've talked about previously yeah so when I look at it for
me going back to my example of like wow would I let somebody in my life is so good um I have to believe it's worth the risk I'd I have to remind myself and this is true for me but sometimes I don't always believe it but it is true I'd rather have the joy of a beautiful love story that ends
in pain than living in fear of the pain and not having the love story that is true for me and I've proven that through having I think I've told you I've had several relationships and they've all been like years at a time and I see them all as these beautiful little books beautiful novels beautiful
love novels and they're all very different and they're all different ages in my life and they're all the different things and I'm single now and like I know that there is another love story out there but I have to believe that that love story is worth the pain of it ending not to say that
it's going to end but we don't know I can't guarantee anything right so I have to believe for me that it's worth a risk um the way I look at it in typical logical me is like okay my choices are guaranteed living in fear or the possibility of pain I like well obviously it makes it very easy
for me to choose I'll choose the possibility of pain then guaranteed living in fear of potential pain right because I know that I can survive emotional pain I know that I I mean I have and I will continue to and we have the tools and I have the support to survive it and yes it sucks
pain sucks emotional pain is awful um we've all been there we've all been rejected a bend and betrayed whatever your pain is but when you believe in yourself and you have the tools of self compassion and you have the support around you um it makes it a bit bearable and then it has to
be worth it that's that's how I have become more comfortable with it like I just it has to be worth the potential pain and the potential risk putting yourself out there you know we talked about in previous episodes how I will put myself out there I will go approach somebody in the last
episode of our rejection because I have been rejected so many times that for me it's like uh okay it's just a bit of rejection now that's not the same as this kind of pain where like you know you've exposed yourself emotionally to someone and then they abandon you that is a much much deeper
wound there but it's the same idea of the the it's something you can learn and you can have belief in in yourself yeah yeah anything that you guys would want to add well I I felt like I think I drove it home but I just want to make sure and it was the piece earlier around um um
cultivating within yourself what you are seeking in another um and then and then secondly going first you know because I just I guess what I see so much out and it's such a barrier is you know it's like well I'm not going to bring I'm not going to bring courage and authenticity
and vulnerability unless they do first and then you've got two bitches with their backs against the wall you know and it's like we're not getting anywhere you know I've been to that nightclub it's like everyone's waiting for someone to come over no one's coming over you know so it's like go first
you know someone what's that I'm the someone right yeah yeah yeah and then and then yeah I think just yeah cultivating within ourselves what we're seeking in another you know and that can be really hard to hear it was hard for me back in the day I was like what do you mean what do you mean
but I understand it now and you have people like us and podcasts like this so walk you in that direction you know yeah yeah yeah I like that and I would also even say like call to it's even enough to cultivate the courage to enter a relationship where you can say I don't have these things
but can we cultivate them together right because certain things are relational and you can't really cultivate them on your own like you know what you mean like for me it's like learning to trust somebody in love like I you can't do that unless you do it right like you're it's just part of it so
can I cultivate the the capacity to fall back on myself and my worthiness and the compassion I have for myself if it doesn't work out yes but I think there's certain things that we need to do relationally and I think that's that's what makes it so scary you know but also so beautiful when
you find it and it and it feels good yeah intimacy is a beautiful thing I think it's one of the one of the most human things about this human experience is that feeling of connection emotion connection so yes it comes with a risk but it has to be worth it and it is it is yeah yes
okay guys thank you Matt thank you Reno for your vulnerability and actually showing us what it to see and when it really looks like I love you how I love you for our viewers and listeners thank you for sticking with us on this episode um reminder to join us in the sharing circle the
game is whether it's sharing circle and connection circles they happen on the second and last Thursdays of the month got on our mailing list we'll send you all the information there if you're watching us on YouTube go ahead and tell us what you think of the episode and give us your thoughts on fear of intimacy in the comments and thank you so much we'll see you next time bye bye