Body Shaming

Welcome to Gay Men Going Deeper, a podcast series by the gay men's Brotherhood where we talk about personal development, mental health and sexuality. We are your hosts. Michael Diurio is a life and wellness coach specializing in sexuality, relationships and confidence. I'm Matt Lanciddle, a counselor and facilitator specializing in healing and empowerment. We have our own private practice and in this podcast, we're sharing all of our best stuff with you guys.

Today we're talking about body shaming. Not the most glamorous topic to talk about, but one that is actually quite important, especially in our community because it's so prevalent. Not just in our community, it's prevalent in the world. There's a lot of it, so we're going to unpack this today and see what we can do about it. We're going to be exploring questions like how have you been impacted by body shaming and in what ways have you felt shame about your own body?

What contributes to body shaming and society and or the gay community? And what can we do to overcome body shaming? So we'll continue these discussions on the last Thursday of every month in the game and brotherhoods you hang out where you will have a chance to come and share your own experience with us. This podcast and YouTube channel are listener and viewer supported. If you enjoy what we're creating, you can support us by making a donation to the show by using the link in the show notes.

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If you're looking to accelerate your personal development journey, you can check out our coaching collection, learn how to heal and empower yourself at your own pace by getting instant access to 45 plus premium personal development coaching videos created by us as well as our healing your shame and building better relationships courses. So you can head over to a gay men at going deeper.com for more information. Okay, so as I set off the top, our community has a lot of body image issues.

You know, I'm sure you two would probably agree with me when I would say, probably 80% of people in my private practice has gay men struggle with having a healthy relationship with their body.

There's a lot of pressure that they put on their body. There's a lot of pressure that they feel from society that they then therefore internalize and put on their body. So I think we place a heavy reliance on our body as gay men for worth approval validation, these sorts of things and it becomes a currency in our community.

And so there is a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves as well to look a certain way to feel a certain way about our bodies and when we don't feel that it can be really challenging. So we're here today to kind of share a bit of our challenges and how we can how we have maybe overcome or I think even for myself, I still deal with this in certain capacities.

So how I am working through it, I should say. So when you're listening, I want you just to think about body shaming in this context, we could be looking at it through the lens of like shaming others, right. And participating or perpetuating the shame that is coming from the systems, the oppressive systems.

And it could also be us receiving it. So are we participating in it or are we receiving it both likely. So we want to look at the ways in which we are contributing to this in the ways of giving and receiving. We want to I want you to also to think about where it's coming from when we're having this conversation today. So society at large, the gay community, oppressive systems, purity culture.

Each other, right. So we internalize this stuff from the system and then we feed it to each other and a lot of times it's unconscious. We're not even aware we're doing it. Our selves, you know, putting this pressure on ourselves. So we want to kind of look at the roots today. And then we want to look at the foliage, right. The roots, where is it coming from in a deeper sense and then how are we, how are we growing it and making it more.

And this can show up in different ways like covert and overt. So I just wrote down a couple here, like media messages around beauty standards is a big one. So like, who is in the media, who is in the magazines. We're looking at, like, you know, these sorts of things because they can really, they can really lead to that. And then we can be comparing our, the way we look to the standards that are being set for us by the systems.

People bullying us for our appearance. Again, that would be tend to be more of an overt way of experiencing body shaming. Could be talking poorly about ourselves, participating in self deprecation, whether that be for humor or whatever.

And I see this a lot actually. And this is a big, but big thing that, and I'll set a boundary. If somebody's talking poorly about themselves in my presence, I'll set a boundary with them and just tell them that, you know, it's not something that I, that I want to be around. And it is people are usually pretty taken back by that. But I just think it's so harmful. Even if it were doing it as a joke, I think it's really harmful to be self deprecating.

You know, I like I'm all about love and people feeling good. So I want to encourage that when in people's dialogue. So we have our first question. So how have you been impacted by body shame? And in what ways have you felt shame about your own body and we'll start with Reno. Well, two things I want to say before I dig in one, I am so distracted by Michael's body right now because it's all tan and sexy. You look amazing. Thank you. Just come back from Mexico or Dominican Dominican. Right. Yeah.

And I was imported by Arda. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. And the other thing is like, I don't know if you guys have these moments, but like I have these moments sometimes when I'm like, man, we get to do this. Like it's so cool that we're having this conversation about body shame. And like thousands, thousands of people are going to hear it and it's going to help them. So that just like hit me once again, I love it.

And for me, I can remember being impacted by body shame at an early age. It was, you know, it was one of the ways that I was like, it's in my neighborhood. And it's school got under my skin. They would, you know, they were like, they would make fun of me for being skinny or they would make fun of me for the color of my skin or they would make fun of me for my juicy bottom lip.

I call it juicy now, but, you know, even my dad like, you know, playfully, but, but it, but it stuck like he would say, you know, tuck in your lip, you're going to trip on it. Right. And just things like that, which are like, they're funny. I can laugh at it for sure. And, and also like, there's, you know, there's power in words. And a lot of those things stuck.

And I remember was, you know, things like, like I was too, I was too brown. I was too dark. I was too skinny. I was too short. I was too chubby. You know, my, my eyes were not light enough or my nose was too big or my hair was weird or, you know, my like my again, my bottom lip.

And the other thing is I have lighter skinned and lighter eyes siblings. And I was constantly hearing people say like, oh my god, like you're so beautiful, your eyes are so gorgeous, they're like, look at your hair, right. And they were always praise in a way that felt different than what I was receiving. Right. Now, it's not to say that I wasn't recognized for my physical appearance, but it just it was different. And I noticed that I picked up on that other than early age.

And seeing a lot of white bodies represented and celebrated for their looks and their beauty, et cetera, in ways that I was not like that, that really stuck with me.

So many subtleties as well, you know, just in like the dolls I saw, you know, when I was a kid, I actually played with Barbie dolls with my sister in the girl next door. And, you know, you look at this like figure and the way it's built in my understanding is that it's not even like the proportions are not even accurate to a real properly functioning human body.

And that tells you like how skewed our standard of beauty is, it's wild. And so, you know, this is a lot of the messaging that I'm getting as I'm young. And then as I start to progress, you know, I get to high school and there's puberty and, you know, people are filling out in different ways.

And maybe I'm not yet. And so I was sort of this like skinny kind of gangly kid and, you know, my voice hadn't deepened and I hadn't really grown into my features. And so, you know, again, I was getting made fun of. And then when hair started to develop on my body as well, that was another thing that I was made fun of for, which people really seemed to appreciate these days.

But I didn't know that was coming back then. And so, you know, throughout high school, there was that. And then, and then also, I mean, there's all the locker room stuff as well, right.

And then, who's penis is bigger than who's and, you know, what's going on down there. And so it just seemed, it just seemed to, you know, follow me around constantly. And I'm sure I'm not alone in this. I think we all navigate this. And then right into sort of early adulthood where, you know, I happily started to fill out.

I never forget I was sitting at school after I graduated. I came to visit. And someone said, is that Reno? And I turned around and they were like, whoa, you filled out. And I remember feeling like so ratified in that moment because I, I just felt appreciated for my physical appearance in a way that I had it before. And that memory really stays with me. What also started to happen was that as I came out and I started connecting with the gay community.

I started hearing and noticing and picking up on and internalizing these new standards of beauty and attractiveness. You know, like being, being really skinny or really muscular was, was quite glorified. And so I started noticing that I was comparing myself to those standards and trying to pursue them. And what I developed was eating disorders result. So I was navigating bulimia for several years actually.

And I would like, you know, I would eat, let's say, jump food in the evenings or something like that. And then I'd feel crappy about it. And, and I would make myself sick. And I really, really strived to be thin and toned. And even hairless, I remember I would shave my body hair as well. And so I was being pulled in all of these different directions in terms of beauty standards and my body. And I wasn't, I really was not caring for it and treating it in the way I do these days.

And there was a lot of sadness about that. And, you know, at some point that that changed and that shifted. And I'll, you know, I'll probably talk a bit more about that in detail as we have this conversation. But I just started to see that the way I was relating to my body and the external inputs that I was engaged in.

And I was engaging with where no longer serving me. And this wasn't working. What I was doing was not working. It was not serving me. And that was really the beginning of an inquiry and a journey to where I'm now, you know, which is a place where I listen to my body. And in my body. I love my body. And I care for it in a variety of ways that are fun, that are joyous that are not shameful. And I'm were just warming up, yeah, yeah. So that's like the close notes.

I mean, I could say so much more, but yeah, thank you. And we will. We'll be saying more on this, right? So thank you, Reno. Yeah, I purposely asked Matt not to go first because I didn't know what I wanted to say. And now, as expected, you both have inspired a bit with it, so thank you for sharing. I think the first thing I want to say is what you said about your siblings, 100% was my first experience with feeling insecure or shame about my body.

I have another brother who is athletic, you know, taller. He was taller, athletic. You know, all the things a good boy should be. And I was always the shortest kid in class. As I was put at the end of this school picture because I was a short one. And I just remember like in my Italian family, my grandparents, and they were wanting to feed me more to make me big, make me big, make me grow. And I just wouldn't, like I am what I am, right? I was also not just short, but scrawny.

Like skinny, I just wouldn't put on any weight. I was always the skinny, scrawny kid. And again, hearing, like you guys said, you know, hearing him get all the praise for being so big and muscular and athletic, can all these things was my first instance of like, oh, I'm not, something's wrong with my body, right? Because it was always these messages of be different, be bigger, get stronger. And oh, wow, you know, brother, you're so much more, I don't know, athletic and that was a good thing.

So that was the first thing, which was not helpful. And then fast forward to, you know, being gay and coming out, still being kind of scrawny, not as much short, but scrawny. I remember feeling very, very uncomfortable taking my shirt off in any context, which for those of you who know me now, is kind of ridiculous, because I love being shirtless and bottomless for that matter.

But in the early days, I would never, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to take my shirt off at the gym, in gym class, at a pool, nothing like that. I refused to go. So again, it was that, I think it was that mentality of, something's wrong with me, or I'm not muscular enough, especially in the gay community, where that is very much an idolized body type. So, you know, fast forward, we've talked about this before.

I did end up for other reasons, start going to a gym and working on my body and getting it to the place that I wanted to be, where I felt good about it. It was at the time, not necessarily motivated by what I would call the most healthy motivation, but there I was. And I have since changed that, which we've talked about in previous episodes.

So now I'm at a point where I will say that it's not, I mean, I'm not perfect by any means, but I definitely feel, where I feel that insecurity come up on things like, let's say, if I'm at a, especially around other game and where I like that, say I'm at a beach, like Canlands or any kind of gay beach, where there's a lot of guys without shirts on, or at a club where shirts are gonna come off, or anything like that, that's where I tend to feel more.

These triggers tend to come up within me, because I'm not as young as I used to be, things on as tight as they used to be. You know, my body has changed, but I guess I'm coming to terms with the fact that, that's okay, that's normal, like nothing has gone wrong, but I still sense it within me, like, oh, I'm gonna be in a picture with all these people, you know, how am I gonna compare? Because I know the gays are gonna be like looking at us, like on Instagram and whatnot. And I see this a lot.

I see the guys when pictures are being taken, if it's like at a beach or a club, everyone's rushing to see what it looks like to make sure it's okay that they can post it on Instagram. And like, that says a lot, I think. I mean, I'm guilty of that too. Like, oh, no, no, we can't post that. Let's do it again. And like, everyone's sucks in, right? And I see that a lot, but I think it perpetuates it. I think that's one of the problems is that we perpetuate it.

So I get the fact that we wanna look good and that we wanna put that out there, but at the same time, what does that say, right? What are we saying about just being a very natural, being in a natural pose where your belly may be out a little bit more and you're not puffing out your chest. I think that's very interesting. And that's how it's looked for me these days. So not perfect, but I'm doing my best. How about you, Matt? Yeah, thanks guys.

You know what I think we should, everybody should have to do is have a recording of themselves when they're taking selfies or pictures in the mirror, whatever. It's like it ain't the first one. Trust me, it's like the 20th one that people post, right? It's like they get it perfect and they're ready for the gram and all this crap. And it's like, again, you're right, it's perpetuating this problem.

And so I love when people are vulnerable and they share shit like that, you know, like just different, different things. I think it's really important to let people know like the reality of what it's actually here. No filters, no photoshopping, no all this crap. And it's like, yeah, I just, I've learned to actually be more attracted to authenticity and you know, even a little bit of a gut on a guy. I'm like, it's like not a big, big thing.

So how this really shut up for me was when, I think I told the story before, but I'll say it again. So when we went to Porto Vierta in about, it was 2021 maybe, 2022, I'm not sure what it's called, it was, but it was when Ontario where I live was still in lockdown and there were no gyms open, but like ever else in North America was kind of like back to regular.

So we all go to Porto Vierta, like I was not in the shape that I wanted to be and all these pictures are being taken and I just had to be like, well, this is what we got. And that was where that's where I had to do the work because my other option was like, what, just not like hide. And I was like, no, you just have to accept that this is where you are, but that's when I noticed it that it was very much still alive within me.

And that's where I kind of had to have that harsh reality that oh, I have some work to do on this. Yeah. Yeah, I remember, we recorded a video similar to this, our podcast similar to this with Callin, the three of us Michael and we, I remember I was talking about me being on a paddle boarding trip. This was two years ago and I hadn't worked out in two years at that time and my body was changing in a big way.

It was the first time in my life that I didn't look like the well, that I didn't have abs or I didn't, right? And I remember seeing the photo after and I was just like, I was so mortified, I was like, oh my God. And then now, okay, I go back to that picture and I'm like, what was I upset about? Like I don't look that bad. It's just funny how like we can have like body dysmorphia and the way we view ourselves and the way we see ourselves.

Because I think we're always comparing ourselves, Genesis, and we have in our mind of what we should be, which for a lot of us will never be that. We'll never, right? Because it's like, you know, even when I was fitness training and I was on stage and I was stage ready and I was ripped, like I was starving myself. Like I had no food in my body. I was using salt to deplete my muscles of any water, like all of these things, these tricks.

And then that's the image I have in my mind that I have to be. It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. So, but this is a big thing that actually fed into my body shaming was, you know, both of my parents growing up, I've said this before, we're into bodybuilding and fitness. And so I always saw this. I was at the gym all the time. I would see ripped bodies. And then when I was around 18, I started working out myself and I started buying fitness magazines. They had a dual purpose. And yeah, exactly.

And, but I started to really create that image in my mind of the body that I wanted. And like you guys both, I was very scrawny. I'm totally an ectomorph. I'm very, very lean. And it wasn't until I would say my late 20s, early 30s that I was able to start putting weight on without eating like insane amounts of calories. So I always had this mental image of me being too skinny. I equated skinny with being feminine. And I didn't want to be feminine. I wanted to be masculine.

And I wanted to be desired. I wanted to be the alpha guy. Like I brought into all this crap around ego. The fitness industry is just inundated with that mentality. Like, you know, ego, alpha crap and shaming. Like I think the fitness industry actually uses shame and body shaming as a strategy to get people motivated. I use air quotes to make body changes.

So how many of our transformations, and I'll speak for myself, how many of my transformations over the course of my fitness career, were motivated by shame, every single one of them. And I had to really go into a deep place of healing myself in the last four years to now being like, OK, I'm starting to get ready to think about wanting to go back to the gym again or working out again. But I'm doing it from a place of love.

And I'll be odd time all like be in my living room and working out from home. So I'm not getting that validation from people looking at me or anything like that. So I'm trying to heal that part, you know, just different things like that. And I also like to work out naked at home. It's like really awesome. So like you're kind of like seeing yourself in the mirror and you're seeing all your, you know, like the parts that aren't perfect, right?

And you're, and it's part of it is reconciling that and learning to love your body as it is. So there's a, and there's a couple things, a couple, like, you know, things that really stood out when I was thinking about this. And I've had a couple things happen in my life that really made me feel shame. And one of them was when I was about, geez, maybe 15, I started to get really, really bad acne. I had horrible cystic acne. It was all over my face. And it was very traumatizing for me.

It was, and when I was about 17, I remember I was with my mom and my sister. And we were in a subway, like a subway sandwich shop and it was really busy. And I was in, I was in line waiting and there was a man beside me with his son. And his son was probably like three or four years old. And I remember I turned and he turned and we both looked at each other and he was like mortified. He was like, oh my god, he was like scared because my face was all red. It had acne all over it.

And he said really loud. He's like, daddy, he's like, what's all over that man's face? And oh my god, my heart dropped. I was completely mortified. It was just like, that's the feeling that I have when I think about shame. Like it just washes over your body. It's hot, the face gets hot. And my mom and sister like heard it too. So they looked over and like that could just tell like they wanted to cry for me. Like they were so sad. But I just, I didn't even know how to react.

I was just super embarrassed. I was flush in the face. But yeah, and when I think about it, I'm like that could have been a perfect opportunity, a teaching opportunity for that child, but I just couldn't even go there. I just went back to my seat. So that really stood out. That was like a really, and even now still to this day, like my acne scars, because I still have them. There's something that I'm insecure about. But I think I've come a long way with them. Like they used to really bother me.

I've had them like laser a bunch of times. I remember when I was probably my early 20s, I like saved up a bunch of money and went to like the dermatologist and got them laser. It cost me like 1500 per treatment or something like that. And it didn't really work that well. So these have been kind of a representation of like, where I've been and kind of the struggles that I've had to go through and the, and learning how to love myself.

And accept myself even when it feels almost impossible to love or accept yourself, you know? So I kind of like, I'll look at myself in the mirror now and I'm just kind of like, you know, there's a part of me that just like, they're just a part of who I am and I've learned to love them. But then there's also a part of me that feels like, what would it be? It's like, especially in lighting, certain lighting, they can be worse.

So I notice like if I'm out on a date or something, I'm worried about direct lighting coming from above, because it'll like really highlight like the divots and it makes me feel like insecure. Like what is this guy thinking? Does he think they're ugly or whatever? So it's like, I know like there's still some work to do in learning how to love myself, which I think is an ongoing thing, right?

Like we're all gonna have things that we have that were just, it's like a lifelong journey learning how to love them and accept them. So that's a big one for me too. And, so, yeah, I think I'll stop there. That feels like a good enough share. I wanna respond to something you said. And thank you so much for everything you shared.

You talked about like the teaching opportunity and that really stood out to me because I had this image of like you there and this kid and his sort of reaction and response to seeing you. And your response to his expression and like what I envisioned is this, yeah, this beautiful moment where you get to sort of kneel down and lean in and explain what's happening there and how it feels and that it's okay.

And you know, I just, it's what it, I guess what it did for me imagining and envisioning that scenario is it had me reflect on how I would love to respond to those moments as they occur in the future and how I would love to support those coming up and those around me in responding to situations like that when they occur. Because what like I love that use the word opportunity and I really see it as that.

Like what a beautiful opportunity when our shame is triggered to like, to you know, to kneel down to get close, to get connected and to respond rather than react like what a healing experience, you know. Yeah, I love that. And you know, I think that comes from me now. But then I was like, if I could have had a button that I could have just like dropped into a hole, I would have. I was like, get me out of here.

And the poor father too, like looking back, like he must have just been equally as mortified as I was, you know, so it was just an all around shitty situation. But yeah, it was meant to happen. Otherwise it wouldn't have happened. I was meant to go through that experience. And the fact that it still sticks with you, right? Oh, like I can hear that kid's voice in my head, like it was yesterday, like it's so like, yeah, it's crazy, crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, again, it's like, you know, we look at like what does shame teach us? Well, teaches us self-compassion, right? Like teaches us how to learn to love ourselves. And, you know, and I want to also iterate too, like it's this episode isn't about like learning how to remove it. You can't remove shame. It's like saying we're going to remove sadness or jealousy or these things. They're human emotions. You can't remove them. But we can develop resilience to them.

And I think resilience to shame is like self-compassion and self-love and vulnerability and these sorts of things. So. And sharing, like you just did. Like they are today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I want to pick you back on that again as well and say, like the color my skin hasn't changed, you know, or like the way my eyes look. Like maybe they've shifted, but that, you know, my eyes are still the same color.

I still have that, like, you know, that the shape of my nose is still the same. You know, my bottom lip is still juicy and the top one's just a little bit smaller. But I've grown into these things. But they haven't changed. But what has changed is how I relate to them.

You know, I now, because I love those things about myself, when people comment on them, whether it's praise or scrutiny, because both can actually create the sensation of, oh, no, someone's focusing on this thing for any reason, you know, at all. But it's like, because I have reconciled with those parts of myself and I have grown to love and appreciate them. I take it all lightly and with a grain of salt. It's like, oh, OK, you know, thank you. Yeah, that's there.

And it's less like, it's less like what's the word, like, jarring, like, flooring, you know, I can't think of another word, but it's just, yeah, it's just less of a punch when someone brings attention to it because I dealt with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. I want to hear more about that and how you've done that. But we'll see that in the last question. Totally. OK, Reno, so what contributes to body shaming in society or the gay community in specific? Yeah, I love this question.

You mentioned in the beginning. And I think like what I see is we do it to ourselves. We do it to each other. And then there's a capitalist system and a sort of collective psychology that, and I might even say psychosis as well, that seems to contribute to it. And I think that when we're quote and quote in our right minds, that sort of behavior kind of doesn't make sense. It's like, there's something still bringing that happens, maybe when we're connected and we're awake.

And we're like, whoa, what? Why was I subscribed to this? Click, click, unsubscribe. Like, no. But when we're in it, it's really challenging to not engage it, not contribute to it, not perpetuate it. And I think in society and the gay community, I've got to say, yeah, it's those three things. I think it's like, there's the media and all of these images we see constantly, whether it's like what's presented on app. So what's presented on television? What's presented in music?

What's presented in magazine and print across the board? And also what is not just presented, but what is praise, what is spotlighted. How often do you see someone with a particular skin tone or hair type or eye color or body type, chiseled or slim or what have you versus seeing someone who's a bit juicier? And who's a bit darker? What have you? What does that tell you about what we're valuing? About what seems to take precedence in the public eye. So I think that's a big part of it.

And then just how we internalize that. And then we speak to ourselves and one another and view ourselves and one another. And I thought about this when we were leading up to this conversation. And I had this vision in my mind. So imagine a projector. So you have these projectors. And they use light and this sort of glass to project an image up to the world. And then you see that image. And imagine the lens of that projector is covered in soy.

And so you may believe that what you're seeing projected outward is what's actually there. When in fact, it's a distorted image. And so you come in and you wipe the distortion and you get a clear picture. Well, to me, that distortion is all of this stuff we're being bombarded with that is inspiring and feeding the shame with it us. And conversations like this and the work that we do is a way to begin to cleanse that and to get a real clear and true image of who you actually are.

And the purpose of your body actually serves, which I'll probably say more about later. But yeah, I think becoming really curious and questioning what we believe about our bodies, what we're taught about our bodies, and what we say about our bodies and each other's bodies, such powerful and transformative work. Is it true? I asked myself that a lot. So yeah, I think that would be my answer to that question. I think we can write. I think we can write DCs on this. I'm sure there have been.

But there is probably a lot to say on this topic, on the what contributes to it. As I was thinking about it, so you guys know that I remember really into queer history. I've always been really interested in that. And one of the things that I remember and learning about sort of the gay liberation movement, at least in North America, in the 60s and 70s, and there's a reason I'm going to share this.

One of the things that came out of that was gay men specifically wanting to reclaim what it means to be masculine because for a long time, up until that point, the hetero world had labeled gay people as feminine and weak. And we were marginalized and bullied, basically, literally, think of stone, all and whatnot. So as that liberation movement happened, there was a very conscious concerted effort to prove to the world that we are masculine and strong.

And so from that came this movement of going to the gym, getting fit, think of the village people, think of that motif that became, and what's it called? The artist that has the really big muscles in the tight jeans, what's his name? I'm forgetting what it's called. You guys know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. OK, I forget his name. If you remember, just throw it out there for me. But yeah, that came out of that movement.

So it was a way to stand up and say, like, fuck you to the hetero people. Like we're strong, we're here, we're masculine. We're here to drop this label of weak feminine, right? So that muscular ripped body became Thomas Finland. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. That kind of image kind of became the poster of gay liberation in one way, but also the gay movement. So that's where it comes from. And I think that's great. It comes from a very nice place, and I get that.

But I think it's kind of taken a turn. Yeah. It is not served us anymore. It's become the standard to the point where it's almost, well, it is unhelpful. And not just now in social media, but that became the standard for porn, it became the standard for anything, any magazines of the time. And it has sort of fed in through the 80s, 90s, and even today. So I grew up in the 90s, that era. And for me, my first images of gayness were Queersfolk, Will and Grace, Abercrombie, and Boybands.

And so if you think to that, white, white, white, white, white, white, everybody's white. And then the other thing was they all had that look. That pretty boy, all American, abs, muscular, kind of like. And thinking back to Queersfolk and Will and Grace, there was a lot of jokes at the expense of, they called Will Fatt, Jack was always calling Will Fatt, he will, and Fatt, fat, all these things. And even in Queersfolk, there was a lot of that as well.

And to Matt's point at the beginning here, there is a lot of that still like joking, kind of, calling people these names. But it might be ingest, but it tells us something, right? So that, I think, has a lot to do with that. I just want to give a bit of the history to say where it comes from, because I think it is interesting. But it does need to kind of take a shift. And in many ways, I think it has.

And I don't know if that's just because of where I live, and that the circles I surround myself with, like I'm very intentional and mindful about the people that I'm with, I can't stop, I follow in social media. But I do think it is getting better and has gotten better. And I think there is that deep desire and intention for it to get better. But at the end of the day, I think something that contributes to it is the fact that we say we want more body positivity, but our actions say differently.

And I think that has a lot to do with it as well. So going back to, in the game and it's brotherhood at Facebook group, we talked about this. When people post things, it's very common for the pretty people to get a lot of likes, comments, hey, nice to meet you, message me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whereas the less traditionally pretty folks don't get that same response sometimes. And I just always think that's interesting, right? So is that a Facebook problem? Is that a nice problem?

I'm not sure the answer to that. But I think it's definitely something that does contribute to it. We really have to work hard in today's social media world to trip up the algorithm. Because the algorithm is what feeds us what we think what they think we want to see. And that really pisses me off. Because I can tell you on my Explore page on Instagram, I still see all these things that I do not care for. Like, I don't want to see this guy. And look, it's not good content that I'm looking for.

And so I'm a little bit pieved at this. Because while I think that it is a bit of the algorithm, at the same time, I think the algorithm doesn't care. And it's just going to feed me what it wants to feed me. So I think a lot of it has to do with what we choose and what we select to engage with on the internet, whether it's in the Facebook group or on social media. And even the kinds of porn we watch. So media literacy has a lot to do with it.

I mean, we can get more into that in the next section. But I think what contributes to it is the fact that we're all buying into it. And then it keeps getting fed back to us. So I'm like, Reno was talking about with this projector. We're putting it on the projector, I guess. Put it on that into the world back. And then we're consuming it and then perpetuating it. So we have to just work twice as hard. And that makes us in like an uphill battle. But I think it's really important that we do so.

You know, it's great points. It really, you're sure stimulated a lot for me. I'm noticing with the algorithm that when I stop on something, I don't have to like it even, or even a comment or engage with it just stopping on it. And then continuing to scroll, more of what I stopped on will come. So I think on the Facebook group, what's happening is when people think the guys thought they stop and stare at the picture like it, whatever, and then that's what's perpetuating it.

So it's really fascinating. It's like what's causing people to stop and look, right? Traditional beauty standards of what they think is beautiful. So yeah, I think we've done a good job as a community, though to deal with that and to kind of bring awareness to that, because I do see a lot of people just commenting on all people's stuff now. And it's like, we're whereas maybe two years ago when our group it wasn't like that.

So I think it's, we've taught people consciously how to distribute attention to people and not just value people based off of how they look. The other thing I wanted to comment on is the Tom Affinland, the whole thing about like, you know, we'll be masculine, we'll show you. And it's just really funny because I think that backfired, like you said, in a way, but it's also like we stepped into what they're doing in the heteronormative world anyway. So it's like, we just shot ourselves in the foot.

It's like, I'll prove to you that I can be just like you, you know what I mean? And now I do agree with you. I think we're kind of undoing that a bit. And it's like now you have a lot of people that are putting forward femininity in a really strong and empowered way. But I also think it's coming from shadow in some aspects too because it's like, you know, this whole notion of pride, you know, I think pride and shame are kind of interconnected.

And it's like we feel like we have to be prideful because we feel ashamed, right? So it's like, I would love to see our culture just practice more acceptance and love as opposed to having to constantly be proud of things and throwing, you know, what we are around to be like, you know, we'll show you, we'll be more muscular or we'll be feminine.

If you're not going to allow femininity, it's like, it's kind of like, I don't know, there's a shadow side to rebellion and then there's also a conscious side to rebellion. And I think, you know, I'm, and I'm also trying to reconcile this within myself as well. So I think it's a big part of how we can move forward and start to move away from shame and more towards acceptance. Because I think pride is an extension of shame whereas I think acceptance is an extension of love.

So it's just kind of approaching it from a different angle. But I think I wrote down very similar things to what you guys put. So obsession with white, muscular, masculine, muscular jocks. So just really rigid beauty standards and then people buying into this, right? And again, I'm a huge advocate for self responsibility. As I always talk about on this podcast and I'm a more of an individualist. So if we want to correct that, we have to stop putting those people on pedestals, right?

We have to start distributing the power accordingly, right? So it's like if we're constantly idolizing that, then that's going to constantly be the thing that we're all obsessed with, right? So it starts with us as individuals saying, I'm not going to continue to perpetuate idolizing something that is robbing me of feeling empowered in my whatever, right? My color of my skin, the shape of my body, these sorts of things.

Another one is body alteration for the wrong reasons and I air quote wrong reasons because this is just my perception of it. They might be the right reasons for you but things like plastic surgery, bow talk, steroids, like these things that are body modification. Like I understand it's like some people have this mentality of look good, feel good and that's what contributes to that for them and that's really awesome. I think that's great. I'm not here to shame that.

But I know for me when I've done the tanning or the lasering on my face or any of these sorts of things, it's just sending a message to my body that it's not good the way that it is that I can only be beautiful and feel good about myself when I change who I am, right? I feel the same way about women wearing a lot of makeup, right? It's like we're sending the message that what's underneath the makeup isn't acceptable to share with the world.

So we have to constantly covering up so people don't think what's underneath the ugly, right? Like I love this notion of like share who we are, share the imperfections. I think those are beautiful. But those only started to become beautiful for me when I started to appreciate my own imperfections, right? Like learning to love my skin and like, you know, learning to accept my skin, it's like I'm now no longer like judging other people with that because it's a projection when I was, right?

So these sorts of things are really, really important. And I think they breed into perfectionism. And again, perfectionism is extension of shame. So when we feel like we can only show our perfections and we have to body modify constantly, I think it's just coming usually from a place of shame, but I could be wrong and I'm not speaking for other people, I'll speak for myself. When I say that, shaming bodily functions and labeling them as gross, I think this is a big one. And I'm guilty of it too.

I have, like I've talked about this on the podcast, I have sensitive, old factory system, and I get grossed out easily. So I try and reconcile this. But what that does for me is it perpetuates my own shame. So I'm always worried, like does my breath smell or, right? Like if I fart, like should I feel ashamed about that? Like these sorts of things.

And it's like, like human beings, when you think about it, like we all have these bodily functions and you know, learning how to not carry shame around them, but it's funny. Like, you know, when people fart or poop or whatever, and it's like when you're first getting to know someone on a date, like that feeling of shame, that can come up around like, oh, well, they think I'm disgusting, right?

So these are, I think part of society's, you know, shaming, size of body parts, size of the body, I think is a big one. And another one is like sex. And I think sex and shame are like synonyms. They go together like so well. And I think people, you know, like looking at purity culture and these sorts of things and shaming people for what they do with their body.

And I just, I'm such an advocate of like stay in your own lane because it's like it doesn't matter what other people are doing with their body. Like focus on what you're doing with your body. Like that's it, right? Unless what the person's doing with their body is obviously impacting something in the sense of like, non consent or a minor or something like that. Obviously that goes without saying, but when it comes to people and what they do with their body, I'm just like, hey, go for it.

Like do what feels good for you. Seek your pleasure in the ways that feel good for you, right? That's how I kind of try and approach things. But I do see a lot of a lot of sexual shaming happening in our culture in different ways, right? Like it can come from people like shaming people for being prudish or people shaming people for being promiscuous. Like it doesn't just come at people who are promiscuous. I think it comes in the other direction as well too.

But yeah, so those are just some of the ways that I see it showing up. Last question, Reno, what can we do to overcome body shaming? Wow, no pressure. Yeah, well, I wanna start by saying, it's so important, it's so important to meet and acknowledge yourself wherever you're at on your journey and in your relationship to your body. I think that that's huge and then a beautiful and powerful place to start from. Just where you're at, you know?

Another thing that I think is really important to acknowledge is that, you know, there's the body and actuality and then there's what we project onto it and what we make it mean. Just like there's everything in actuality and then there's what we project onto it and make it mean. So, you know, we're talking about the body right now but the mind is a really powerful, powerful thing. You know, thought is a very powerful, powerful thing and thoughts become things as they say.

So, I think that's important to acknowledge and the body is in fact like a tool. It serves a functional purpose and also a joyful purpose. So, like my body, for example, my body, you know, I use it for functionality. It helps me move, it helps me survive, it helps me thrive. I use it to eat, I use it to make, I use it to connect, right? It serves so many purposes, like these nails, for example, that we maybe go and get manicured, et cetera, right? Like, yeah, they serve a purpose.

Like we can sort of adorn them in color and enjoy them in different ways and also, like these are used to eat to their tools to like open things, engage with things, make, engage with the external world. You know, my flesh is and bone, you know, it contains my organs, which keep me alive. Like this is all functional stuff and the bonuses we get to like enjoy it, you know? It's like I can go get a haircut and make it look a particular way and I can enhance different features that occurs to me.

So, I think that's major. The other thing I would say, and this really helped me is to start to pay attention to, and I didn't have the consciousness for this at the top, you know, previous to having it, but what being is your doing happening from, right? So, what is, what state of being, what state of thought? Like where are you at internally when you are up to what you're up to in relationship to your body, you know?

So, like if I get that, you know, in my brain and in my, you know, in my thinking and in my emotions, like I'm kind of off, right? Odds are anything I'm gonna be thinking and saying about my body or other bodies, is probably gonna reflect that. So, it might serve me to maybe just be cautious of what's happening in that moment versus other moments when I'm in my right mind, so to speak. But again, what being is your doing happening from? Am I, am I exercising because I hate my body?

Because I'm comparing my body to say something I saw in TV or in the magazine or someone I saw walking down the street who has something that I want or think I want. Am I doing it to get this person who I think will want me if I look a certain way or my body reflects something in particular?

Or am I doing it because, because again, I want this thing to function beautifully and impeccably, you know, and because I love it and because I know that when I'm exercising and moving and breathing and feeding it with, you know, nourishing things, whether it's like the information that I take in or the actual food I consume or the exercise is a movement I engage in in the environments I put myself in, you know, it's like, am I, am I doing those things because I love this thing, right?

Or is it because I'm seeking some sort of external validation or looking to hide and mask and cover something up? Pay really close attention to that, you know, and start to be compassionately curious, compassionately curious, you know, not scrutinized, not be unkind, but be compassionate again, just honoring where you're at. It's okay that that's there that you feel that way about that little extra piece of skin that, you know, some of us got here and I got a little bit right here, right?

Or that bald spot that started coming in. I was like, oh no, okay, that's there. I have feelings about that. Let's explore that. And then I think that, you know, two more things I would say is like, what would I do if I loved myself, you know, and would I want someone I love to do this to themselves, to speak to themselves this way, to think about themselves this way, right? Check in with yourself. What would I do if I loved myself and would I want someone I love to do this to themselves?

And the last thing that I know it's going to the tangent here, but there's a quote by St. Thomas, I mentioned it on this podcast before. If you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you. And if you do not bring forth what is within you, what is within you will destroy you. And so my encouragement is to expose yourself and to bring that shame, that stuff into the light and to conversation. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for your time. Beautifully said.

Yeah. For our podcast listeners out there who could not see us, one Rina was referring to the little piece of skin. He was talking about his midsection, not his penis. So I'm like that for someone who's not watching us, they might think something else. Yeah, like this little extra piece of skin here. I'm like just for our listeners, just so they know what he's talking. Sure. That's hilarious. All right, thanks guys. So as you were talking, I thought of these right here.

So I wrote them down quickly. The first thing is, so the questions, what can we do to overcome body shaming? The first thing like Rina said, is kind of know your role. You had said it in the meet yourself where you are. I think my version of that is know that you take, like take some responsibility for, right? So how you could do that is know within yourself how you shame your own body. I think that's a good place to start.

And then how that might come across with others and how you might be shaming other people's bodies in your own mind even, right? And then another way to look at it is looking at what you consume, which I can talk more about in my second point. And then another thing that I just thought of is notice how you want to be perceived.

So in my example of, you know, when people are taking pictures that the be sure at the bar and everything, and like notice what it is that you want other people to say and think about you when they see your body. That is a really good place to start. So for some introspection. And then going to what you consume. So this is the point on media literacy. So we talk a lot about that today.

But I think, like I said, there are people want more body positivity out there and we're like, yeah, we need that. We want that. But we still promote and consume a lot of unrealistic standards. So those clicks, those likes, even those eyeballs, they matter like that is currency in our culture, say, I don't love it, but unfortunately, this is the world we live in. Those clicks are currency, those eyeballs are currency. So spend it where you want it. Like notice that.

Notice the words I'm using here, right? And yes, so it's one thing to follow accounts and watch more body diverse porn. Find that celebrates diversity, inclusivity, absolutely. But like engage with it, follow it, share it, like be a little bit more active with it. I think that's a great thing to do. I notice this as a creator myself. If I put a post together, that's all about positivity and all this good stuff, it gets, it's okay.

But if I put on my half naked body explosion from a consumption and engagement perspective, which is very interesting, I think that it's so much, I put so much more work and effort into creating content where I think about what I'm saying and I'm educating and teaching, which takes a lot more for them. For me, just going in the mirror, snapping a photo, uploading it with a filter. So that says a lot about where we are. We have work to do here, guys.

Yeah. And then another thing on the content and media literacy is just diversifying your consumption. So if you want diverse representation, then diversify your consumption, porn diversities. I think it's great these days with things like only fans in Twitter is we can, we have a lot more options to us. I think it's great that people are doing so. And so let's support them, right? And we can normalize it as well as we consume more and share more.

We can normalize these different body types, different races, different ages even. Older men, I think have a lot to say on this. And they also have sex drives and they also are sexual beings. And we leave them behind a lot, which is definitely something we need to work on as well. So yeah, and being example, if you are someone who is a bit juicier, a bit scrawnyer, a little bit older, or don't fit the type in, you are someone who wants to express themselves.

Like naturally, that just comes very easily to you. Do it. Do it. Make people uncomfortable. Do it. I'm not saying this works for everybody. Absolutely not. I am one of those people who likes to do that. But if you are and you're thinking, oh, maybe I shouldn't because I don't fit that mold, do it anyway. And this goes into my last point, which is if you're gonna do that, make sure you have some support around you because it can be very hard. It takes a lot of courage.

So surround yourself with people who will support you, will encourage you, who also want the same things, who also kind of have the same standards and who want that body diversity, who don't, who won't body shame you and maybe who don't do that as much, or notice that when they do it, I don't think it's necessarily fair to say, no one ever does it, because I certainly do sometimes with my own body and others.

But where we can talk about it and like catch each other and say, hey, notice what you just said there, notice what you're doing here, right? I think that's really interesting and powerful. So I go to a lot of parties. This is my thing. I like going to parties and dancing and in those parties shirts come off. And what I notice is that in some, all these parties are very different. In some of them, it's a very much a younger, very narrow kind of body image. And I don't always fit that.

And so I do find myself second-guessing it, but I do it anyway. And like I don't care. Like I'll be that guy. And then in other parties, where it's a lot more body diverse, it's I think it's more fun because there are people that will just rip their shirts off and they might be 60 years old and they might be more of a bear type figure or a full type figure. And they just love it. They're just having the best time.

And I personally like being in those spaces more, but I will have friends who feel the opposite. And they're like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to be around that. Like that's Rose, right? And I'll call them out on it and say, listen, like that's not fair. Like notice where this is coming from. He wants to be kind of in these other kind of spaces. So my point here is twofold. One, watch where you're doing that.

And two, if you do want to enjoy those spaces and you feel uncomfortable, find places where you can do that, where it's a little bit more comfortable and it's okay to do so. It doesn't have to be a party. I'm just saying that's my thing. Like do what's your thing. I find it. Go out there and look for these spaces and look for these people. Yeah, I'll leave it there. Yeah, great points. Great points. Okay, where do I want to go with this here? What can we do to overcome body shaming?

So self-compassion and vulnerability, like I said off the top, I think are the pillars in my opinion of overcoming body shaming. But we have to look maybe at instead of just being like, okay, I'm going to start being self-compassionate and vulnerable, right? It's like it's a big jump. So I think the first step would be to look at what's the opposite of self-compassion in my opinion? It is self-animosity, right? Judgment of self.

And having like a turbulent relationship with self, what's the opposite of being vulnerable, probably hiding who we are? So I kind of put down a couple things that we can do to stop shaming. And then I'll talk about both some things that we can do to like encourage self-compassion. So having a relationship with self-animosity might look like comparing yourself to other people.

And I think it's hard to say to just stop comparing ourselves to others because we live in a culture where that's usually where a reference point comes from. So I think the starting point would be be a mindful or aware of when you're comparing yourself to other people, catch yourself, right? And just say, okay, what am I valuing here? What, where, you know, and just start to get like, I love the word you use Reno is compassionately curious.

That's such a great word and a term to use for what I'm describing here. Be compassionately curious with why you are comparing with this specific person in general. What do you value about them? Why do you think what you have doesn't measure up to what you're comparing it to? And just start to get curious about that. And then ask yourself, where does that come from? Why do I value whatever white skin over dark skin or whatever, just start to question yourself and say, where does this come from?

Did I subscribe to a belief that no longer works for me? Can I unsubscribe from that, right? And do that work on deconditioning or reprogramming, which is very possible, right? It's very possible to do subconscious reprogramming work. And then the other one that I had here was dropped trying to pull people down into the crab bucket and instead use that energy to pull yourself out because a lot of people that are feeling shame, they want to pull people into their misery, right?

Misery loves companies. So that takes a lot of fucking energy to be pulling people down into the crab bucket and constantly be trolling people on Instagram and YouTube and these sorts of things and trying to pull people down. It's like, can you use that energy to pull yourself up? So you can join these people because the people you're trying to pull down, trust me, they ain't coming down into the crab bucket again.

They've already tasted what it feels like to be out of the crab bucket, they're not coming back in. So you can try and pull them in but all you're doing is wasting your own energy, right? So use that energy to do some work on yourself to get yourself to a place where you don't need to pull people in. And then I just put shaming others, keeps us all small, including ourselves, right? So when we are shaming people, it's coming from the shame within us.

So we're perpetuating the shame within us when we're shaming others. Everything we give comes back to us 10 times. So when we shame people, it comes back to us. Gotta keep that in mind. And then so I was starting, this was maybe, I don't know, a couple of months ago, I was thinking, because this is such a big issue for my clients, so many people struggle with body image. And I'm trying to like channel, I'm like channeling higher wisdom than my own. Like how can I serve these people?

What's the wisdom that they need to come? And this came through in the shower and always comes in the shower, the best wisdom comes in the shower. But so and I wrote it down, I grabbed my phone, quickly, and wrote it down. And I wrote, in order to love your body, you need to let go of the reference points that you use to determine how you feel about your body. Start thinking more about your body in isolation of other bodies that you may be using to discern worth or value from.

That's, I think that what we need to do, that's the work, right? And it comes back to the whole thing about comparing yourself, right? So not using reference points when we think about our own body, right? When you stare at yourself in the mirror, what is that mental reference point that you're using to say, I'm not good enough, I'm too this enough, I'm not this enough, whatever that is, get really clear about what that is and start to let that go.

Let it go, let go of that reference point because that's the thing that's likely causing the dissonance, self animosity, it's coming from that reference point, right, at least from my perspective. And then I just wrote down your body is unique and special to you. No one else has your body and no one else ever will have your body, ever in this lifetime. Your fingerprint, it's the same thing. No one else in this life will ever have your fingerprint. It's unique to you, right?

So is your penis, so is your smile, so is all these things, it's so unique to you and I just think it's that's beauty, right? That is compassion for self is saying, wow, my body's amazing, no one else has this body, this is unique to me, right?

And then the last thing I'll say is evidence, look for evidence of the opposing belief, I've been doing a lot of this work around subconscious reprogramming, find the belief, find the thing that's getting in the way, I'm not good enough, I'm unworthy, I'm not lovable, find the core belief, the self limiting belief that you keep coming back to for a lot of us, it's I'm not good enough. And find the opposing belief, so for me, I use I measure up and have a lot to offer.

That's how I oppose I'm not good enough, I measure up and have a lot to offer. And then I write that down and I start looking for evidence in my life of where I measure up and have a lot to offer and just start there, start reprogramming some of this stuff because if the default mechanism is to always go towards I'm not good enough and then you look for evidence in your environment, in your body of how you're not good enough, you'll find it. And then that reinforces the belief.

So look for evidence of a new belief that you wanna create for yourself. That's like the best advice that I can give and there's a little bit more to it, but that's a great place to start, is doing that it's basically self limiting core belief reprogramming is the work. So anything you guys wanna add before we wrap up. I'm good. Yeah. Wow. Great way to end it. Okay. Well, once the other order must go. That's our secret word for timing, just everybody knows. We're at time is what we're saying.

So yes, thank you guys for your wisdom and for your vulnerability. This was a really beautiful episode. I loved hearing your guys' stories and your vulnerabilities and your insecurities and how you've risen to the occasion around them. So thank you. And we wanna hear from you guys. So please come to our Zoom Hangout last Thursday of every month. There's one in the morning in Eastern Time Zone and one in the evening for Civic Time Zone. So come and join us.

If you have not already joined the game in brotherhood Facebook group, we would love to have you in there and continue the conversation in there in the chats. And if you're listening on YouTube, drop some comments. We would love to hear maybe how you have overcome body shame or how you see body shame showing up in yourself or in the community. And if you're listening on your favorite podcast platform, please give us a star rating, preferably five stars if you enjoyed what you heard today.

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