What No One Tells You About Debt Freedom

all the salacious details. Now, it's not going to be it's not going to be like negative that freedom is great. But after paying off debt between the two of us, Jill I paid off seventy eight thousand dollars Jill years is fifty six thousand. And there are things people do not tell you. There are things the books about paying off debt do not tell you. And we want to talk about something that we still love being debt free for the most part, but we want to open up

the conversation to say it's not just rainbows and butterflies. Yeah. Well, I think that there isn't a ton of conversation, especially for those who might be still in the midst of debt pay off, about what it's going to be like. I think better preparation for us myself, you Jen would

have been helpful. I think there's plenty of articles and podcasts for the person who is now out of debt recognizing okay, yeah, these are some of the things that you're going to be facing, but to even start to understand that in the midst of debt freedom, and hopefully this episode will help to create space and freedom for what your debt free journey is looking like, to know

that not all of them look the same. There is space for you to slow down, speed up, change your mind, and then help to prepare for what might it be like afterwards and what do I want to set my sights on for when that does happen, And and we're gonna we're gonna get into it. But before all of that,

this episode is brought to you by Sweet Tea. We're into the hot, hot heat of summer, and there's nothing more fitting than to be sponsored by some cold, refreshing sweet tea, especially when the frugal friends are coming at you with all the tea about the reality of post dept freedom, the dirty laundry, the hot goss, the lowdown. That's right, the sweet tea of life beyond paying off debt. But before we get into that, we also have some thirst satisfying sweet tea for you in the form of

a free e book. Check it out at Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash e book to get your free copy Rich with the over two hundred money saving tips sweet Tea satisfying all the thirsts. Yes, thirst trap for sure, but like John said, there's not that much hots, just preparation. Yeah. And if you know, like they're obviously everyone takes an extreme view. Well I won't say everyone, but like the

it's so easy to focus on the extreme views. Pay off debt at all costs, don't worry about debt, just invest. And there are so many people on the extremes. And we're not about extremes, you know, us were about the radical middle and so we love debt freedom. We also love investing and building wealth, and we love for you to be informed about everything behind the scenes of both of those and and that's what we're hoping to focus

on in this episode. If you are in the midst of paying off debt or wondering if you should um there are plenty of other Frugal Friends episodes you can queue up to play after this Uh. Some of the most relevant ones to this episode our episode one paying off Debt and your Mental Health with Melanie Lockert and episode one seventy one should you focus on paying down debt right now? So those are two good ones, and we've got two good articles for you today, Jill, What

did you think about these? These so so fantastic again, just giving another perspective thing to think about and freedom. I think that was the messaging that I got from both of these articles. But to start off, this one comes from Melody right. It's published on CNBC. Talks about after paying off one hundred thousand dollars in three years, I changed my strategy on paying down debt and slowed down and here's why. And so this person is telling their very real life story about a lot of debt

already having been paid but still more ahead. Something like eighty thousand dollars had yet to be paid off by the time this article was written, but giving some examples of the way that they shifted their strategy. And I love this one quote that the author writes about in that in the midst of this debt payoff journey, after paying off one hundred thousand dollars, having eighty thousand dollars left to go, deciding to trade in that burnout for

sustainable money objectives. This person described how they were blogging about this debt payoff journey and posting pictures of celebration with her husband and and yet not talking about some of the burnout being experienced. And we know that debt payoff hopefully is not a lifetime. It can be a very intense season depending on how we approach it, and and some of us approach it in with more intensity than maybe we need, and again talking about some of

that freedom. And so halfway through or a little bit past the halfway through mark, she decided to not continue to burn herself out, sacrifice herself on the altar of debt freedom, and implement some more sustainable money objectives. And

for her she describes what those are. And I think ultimately we want to highlight these two show you have freedom in the way that you're even debt payoff journey looks like well, which will hopefully pay the way for freedom in your post debt freedom journey, because these are the habits that were forming now for what will be implemented in the future. Yeah, I remember being in the same place as Melody, so vividly, like we were a year into our debt payoff and I felt hopeless. We

had accomplished so much. We had paid off my entire um. I think it was it was fifty thou dollars my student loan. We had done so well, and I could I celebrated for like ten seconds, and then I could not be happy because I knew we had another year to go and there was no reason for me to have put myself through that. But we were obsessed with paying off debt because it was the only strategy for personal finance management that we knew. It was the only

method anyone had told us. Uh, nobody gave us permission to slow down. They said, if you slow down, you'll quit and you'll be broke your entire life. And that just wasn't the case. Nobody told me that that was untrue. And so I love that Melody is like being really vulnerable with like she made off a hundred thousand dollars in three years, which is insane. Um and then slow down.

But like people all they want are the stories of like I'm completely debt free, Like I paid off a hundred thousand dollars a debt in a year, and like that's unrealistic. Like those stories like that are not always the healthiest. Like I love seeing like, oh, we paid off you know, seventy dollars a debt in seven years. You know something like that, Like that takes real commitment. But it doesn't have to be that doesn't have to be the story either. I just don't think those stories

get enough attention. But yeah, man, I really really saw myself, her saying after pulling myself out of a pit of anxiety and despair, I felt that so hard. Yeah, we need to give ourselves room to catch our breath. It's still sticks with me. This would have been so long ago. In a conversation with Alison Baggerley from Inspired Budget, where she described debt payoff like a road trip. I know people love to talk about marathons, and you even said, Jen, like a marathon can still be run in a day.

So this is not that. This is maybe more closely to a road trip and what happens on a road trip Sometimes we pull over, we take we were on a rest stop, We spend the night in a hotel somewhere. We we speed up, we slow down, we hit construction, like there's so many different things that happened on a road trip and recognizing that. And I can't emphasize enough that what we do in our debt payoff journey is similar to what we will do post debt payoff. Like

whatever we're establishing now will follow us. It's not that hard to make pivots once debt payoff happens. But recognize what you're doing to yourself now in debt payoff that will be carried with you into the future. The the anxiety, the pressures, the burnout. If we continue to blow past ourselves, not valuing what's happening inside of ourselves, paying attention to what our body is saying we need, what our relationships

are saying we need. We can't be under the impression that that's immediately in the blink of an eye going to shift back and now suddenly we're valuing ourselves and we're not expecting like high achievement or we're not putting these unrealistic pressures on ourselves. The way that we treat ourselves in the debt payoff journey will be the way that we treat ourselves post up payoff journey. So keeping that in mind too, what are we cultivating in this

process and is it giving room for freedom? Is it valuing ourselves the people around us? Is it paying attention to what's happening? And is it right for us? Because if we're just doing what we think people are telling us we need to do, nothing's going to change post that payoff. We're just gonna do what other people are telling us to do. And whose life are we living? So there's also this deeper layer of what are we cultivating right now that is aimed at well being? And

what are we cultivating that we're not gonna want? Well, then, if we're not going to want to post step payoff, why are we implementing it currently. It's not to say that there's not times where we operate in greater levels of intensity, but not to set up camp there live there in a way that is wiping us out. Yeah, well that leads us to Melody's first tip for us

is to give yourself room to reevaluate. I remember when we started out, we we're deciding whether to use the debt avalanche or the debt snowball, and I was like, well, we've been told we need to use the debt snowball, So we have to use the debt snowball and Travis is like, I mean, we don't have to. We can kind of do whatever we want. And I was like that, like blew my my. And I was like what, Like,

I can't what. I just read this book, like I don't I don't know if we should deviate, And it really taught me like when you're in the beginning stages of anything you don't have, it's you don't have to think for yourself. You don't know how to think for yourself, and so it's okay to follow somebody's instructions to a t while you are figuring out how you fit and

how this fits into your world. But once you get a grasp, like all kids, like babies, we do everything for them because they don't they don't know how to do things. But once they get into toddlers, you've got to teach them how to pull their pants up or they're not going to be able to potty train. And then you got to teach them to use the toilet or they're not going to be able to enter kindergarten. So you have to do these things kind of before they want to be ready. It's the same with you.

You can follow somebody's advice, but you have to get to a point point where you re evaluate whether it is right for you. And I I wasn't told I had permission to reevaluate, and I wish and it was okay in the beginning, because I didn't know how I

would revaluate. Having been given too many choices and not knowing how to choose between them would have led me to just not choose any So I'm glad that I had something to, you know, cling to, But I did not have permission to reevaluate at any point, and really I clung to something that was not working for me and my mental health for much longer than I should have. And that's another one of those tips that can be helpful across the board for our whole personhood and with

the goals that we set. Sometimes we set a goal in our twenties that we want to accomplish by our thirties, but by the time we reach our thirties, it's irrelevant. We've changed, our desires have changed, but sometimes we can still feel tethered to what we had set out to do, whether it was a career path or an educational goal, and we feel obligated to do that thing because well, I said it and I wrote it down, and that's what I wanted. And I've been aimed at this thing.

But what about the permission to say I'm different now. My desires have changed, my context has changed, my relationships have changed, and I have room to say I changed my mind on that. That's not my goal anymore. I want to make this pivot. There is room for that, and I think that's where we can find more freedom to say, yeah, that was something that I aimed at, then it was worthwhile to aim at. I'm glad I set my sights on something, but it's not what I

want anymore. I know, Jen, you've experienced that in a career. I've experienced that in in my career, and and that applies to our finances as well. That it's good to set your sights on something. Think it's good to say I'm gonna pay off debt and here's the amount of time I want to do that in. But as you get into it, if things shift and change, we can reevaluate, well, where am I at now? How do I want to shift and adjust what I had set out to do?

And for this article, for this our author. It's not not paying off debt anymore, it's just going about it differently given her now context, And so that leads to to the next point that she gives of not being afraid to embrace a change in plans. It's the same concept to giving yourself room to reevaluate. But then beyond the reevaluation, what do I now want to implement that the plans can change. We can take a detour on this road trip, we can stop overnight somewhere, we can

change cars, we can do a lot of things. Life is not static, it's dynamic, and so room to reevaluate, actually plan to reevaluate, set your sights on something. But then one year in, how is this working? How is this going? Where are my capacities? How am I doing mentally, emotionally, relationally, spiritually? All right? If not good? What needs to shift? And there is room for that and it should be happening, not just oh, there's permission, but let's do this, let's reevaluate.

Let's change the plan so that we can find ourselves on the other end of this, not flat like a pancake on the side of the road. Yeah, definitely, and we're all for going you know, hot and heavy for a period of time. We love no spend challenges, like you know, being committed having that one goal is like what we say the most effective way to goal set and execute is is being focused on one goal at

a time. But that always comes with reevaluation and being open to changing the plan and being open to take your foot off the gas if something else is suffering. Like I gave myself shingles two months into our debt payoff because I was like side hustling NonStop trying to get this debt out of my life, and this was really two months in and so I my body had to force me to change plans. So don't do what

I did. Just be just don't be afraid to embrace a change without your body revolting against you, as to get ahead of it. To be proactive rather than reactive would be amazing. But there's land mines all over this. We'll discover our capacities sometimes because we get wiped out. But honor that value that make shifts and don't just be like, well all right, I'm just I'm not going to change a thing. I'm going to keep going even though like this is destroying my my body and my

physical well being. Yeah, and you're one goal can still be paying off debt while you take the gas off to save for the gosh, they said we needed a new mattress. Instead we were lamenting a out. How that money could you know have paid off a student loan? And so like, don't do that. Don't like sacrifice your health and well being to put money towards debt. So be willing to take the money that you need and put it in other places while still having your primary

focus be paying off debt. You can funnel money away to your rath i ra every month and invest and get those years of compound interest while still having your singular primary focus your main financial focus be paying off debt. The things that we are being told are mutually exclusive are not actually mutually exclusive. We live in this ecosystem of financial choices that can exist together even when some

people may be saying that they cannot. Ecosystem of financial choices. Yes, jen mm hmm yeah, so uh, do you have anything else to say about this wonderful article? Thanks for the freedom? Yes um. The author Melody Robinson she Um is on Instagram at broke on Purpose and she's really great so definitely give her her a follow and we'll jump into our next article, which is life after debt when you

stop paying down balances and start building wealth. And I picked this one because I had no concept of building wealth. I thought paying off debt was building wealth and it is not. So I, um, yeah, I really didn't understand the difference. So I was very shocked to realize that it was about investing and doing other things. It's a it's a good aim, it's a great financial move, but like you're saying, Jen, it's not wealth building. One of the things that I appreciate at the very beginning of

this article and felt very seen this. This resonates with my experiences after the debt payoff, this question of what is the best use of my available cash flow and acknowledging that answering that question can be quite intimidating and overwhelming. And I think we've mentioned this on other podcasts episodes before as well. But once we get off of this singular goal, and that was that was what it was

for me, was a singular goal. Now I'm realizing I could have had freedom to be doing and working on

other things I didn't uh for better or worse. I do wish that there had been some savings alongside that goal, but hindsights twenty and so that as difficult as that was and as much time, energy, attention focus that took, there wasn't a whole lot of thought that needed to go into it other than problem solving how can I pay this off as quickly as possible versus what then needs to come into place of saving, investing, retirement, And that can feel so beyond me and probably the typical

person's understanding of finances. That feels next level intimidating, overwhelming, because now we're getting into conversations about stocks and tax benefits and retirement and future and so many other terms that sometimes it can cause us to just be like, well, I did the debt payoff thing, Okay, that's that, and not think beyond that. So I appreciate how this article is encouraging us to think beyond that, even in the midst of debt payoff, of how will I approach this

once I reach that point? Yeah. I love how he says in life after debt, you're more empowered with your money and in control of what you can accomplish in your life. And I think that's a great foundation. Being debt free makes building wealth a lot easier. So the article then goes into talking about the three options that are really before us when paying off debt. Spoiler alert, not all of them are necessarily what we want to

be doing. What we'll get into that so once we become debt free, and again, this is something for us to be considering even if we're still in the debt payoff journey, because this this will inevitably become a part of your reality. So thinking about it now ahead of time is great. We've got option one, which is lifestyle creep. Just let let all the things that you ever wanted to do happen. You don't have to worry about debt payoff anymore, so just live the life that you wanted

to live. That's that's one option some of us do that. This option, too, is to allocate that money to other savings goals, just kind of making a really quick, kind of mindless I'm not using that word in a bad way, but not necessarily considering all of the options, but just immediately shifting whatever money you had been putting towards debt

to some sort of savings goal. Seamless. Yeah, a seamless transition, just all right, five dollars was going to this, So now five dollars is going to that, and I don't need to think about it anymore. And the third option being to relax, take a pause, and do some as they call spring cleaning financially, to kind of re evaluate what do I want to do with this money or now that I am debt free, that question of what what's the best use of this, but giving space to

relax and take time. So those are the three options ahead of us, and he kind of goes into, well, what what is the best option and how do we want to react and respond. Obviously, one option one lifestyle creep. That's not a great option because it's gonna be really hard to come back from maybe moving out of a roommate situation and buying your own house and now getting a luxury vehicle and going on all the expensive vacations

and buying all the gadgets. There's there's almost going to be no return from doing all of the things and never saying no to yourself. So that's we do want to avoid that. But then number two, oh, number two, Yeah, that one is the one where I think most people get caught up. And I believe number two is the reason for the rise of the financial independence movement is that we have so many people and myself included, so

many people paying off debt at this feverish rate. They get done and it's like, you've got this debt payoff hangover. You don't know what to do, so in order to make the pain away, you just keep drinking, which is a strategy for dealing with hangovers. And as you probably could fit like anticipate, it's not the healthiest one, but this is the one most people go with with money is instead of reevaluating, we just keep going full force at something else. And that's something else tends to be

usually investing for retirement. So I mean, even with buying a house, that goal ends, you know, eventually when you buy the house, but investing never has to end. So that and we did that. That's exactly what we did when we stopped, when we finished paying off our debt, we already had bought a house, and we just went hard on investing without asking why. With asking why, they were just like, oh, if you invest fifty of your income,

you can retire early. Cool. That sounds like fun, but like I didn't ask why or if that's what I wanted to do. I just I just did it. And it's not the worst thing. And the author of the article even says on paper, logically, this probably is the best option. Just allocate that money towards savings and building wealth.

But what we're saying is that can lead to ongoing and continued burnout doing things that might not actually align with your goals and values, never actually giving thought to but what do I want to do with this money, and and really not giving time to pause and celebrate and reflect and look back and reevaluate and change the plan. So again, you're not doing the worst thing. In the long run. Allocating money to other savings goals is better

than lifestyle creep for talking overall benefit to us. But there are some things that can happen that are not beneficial for us if we're not being mindful about the next steps beyond debt payoff, which is why they then argue step three is really the way to go in relaxing, giving some time to rest, pause, reflect, look at our finances and decide what's going to be best for us, and then keep going. And my estimation, it's kind of the blend between one and two. It's not full fledged

lifestyle creep. It is some celebration and reward with boundaries on it and then allocating money in a way that makes sense for us. Yeah, it is the radical middle. Like, it's not going all the way to lifestyle creep, and it's not going all the way to you know, saving seventy of your income. It's it's taking and that is what we should be celebrating more. I see the I see a lot of people on Instagram, which is one

of the reasons I'm not on Instagram much anymore. Um just like posting numbers, and people while they're paying off debt really like that. And then the person pays off debt and they're like, oh, well now I have to keep posting something. And so they're posting their investing numbers, and then once they get burnt out, they stop posting all together. I see that all the time, and I

think we just need to celebrate rest and relaxation. We need to celebrate goal transition and reevaluation, and we need to celebrate that for ourselves and in other people and and just make that more normal. Yeah, tethered to something again, not the lifestyle creep. But maybe that one month's worth of money that had been going to debt payoff can go to a celebratory thing. It's not without boundaries, it's

not going wild. It's a set amount of money that you are giving your self permission to say, I'm going to go out to a really nice meal, or I'm gonna take a weekend trip, or I'm going to buy myself some some new clothing new to me, even if it's from second hand. Whatever. It is giving yourself time to celebrate. I think we don't do that enough. And

I love this quote attached to this approach. What's right for you does not necessarily mean the objectively right financial answer, at least not every single time you make a financial decision. And again the freedom that is attached to that that even if something makes sense on paper, that you just you keep paying off your debt until it's gone. You never make any changes. Then you allocate that money to this next thing, and you never make any shifts or changes.

That's robotic thinking. We're not robots, we are not limit lists, and our capacities. Life shifts and changes, and we need to make room for that. And recognizing that even if something makes sense on paper logically, if it doesn't make sense for you, if it's not right for you, and you're given contexts and circumstances, it's okay to work around that as long as there's thought and planning and right

boundary lines set around it. Again, that freedom and permission. Yeah, and we're not saying to take indefinite pauses on paying off debt. Like we love being debt free. We love the accomplishment of paying off debt, and we love what it's done for making it easier for us to pursue other financial goals. For it, for allowing us to be able to step back, rest, refresh, reset. Without debt, we're able to make clearer decisions on what we want from

our future, what we want financially. Debt freedom really has given us that. But I would gladly go back and like, we paid off our debt in twenty three months so I can say, oh, yeah, we paid off seventy eight thousand dollars of debt in less than two years. I'd gladly give up that statement um and say we paid off seventy eight thousand dollars in three years. It's just as impressive. I would gladly even add a few months to that to have enjoyed the journey more. It was

just so miserable. I wanted to get out of it so quickly, and that made it more miserable. And so we don't want that experience for you. If you are paying it off and you are loving it, and you're paying it off fast, then we want that for you. But we don't want you to be miserable because you can pay off your debt in two years, but your third year isn't promised, your fourth year isn't promised, and

so live for today while being responsible for tomorrow. Is one final thing I want to highlight in this article that you just mentioned, Jen, But it's interesting because it's similar to an approach within my day job. I eight will often help people plan and implement sabbatical, this kind of extended, intentional time of rest after a certain amount of time, usually in some really difficult work. I know

sabbatical is taken by a variety of careers. It's quite common for people in some certain settings and has to do with the weight of responsibility. And I think this is a very clear pivot point or pause point when debt is paid off, however you got there, hopefully you found freedom along the way and moving into something else. It's a really clear, definitive opportunity to these words rest, refresh, reset. It's actually so similar to when I help people go

through sabbatical. It's a three phase model and it's rest, refresh, re entry. So just that last are is different from what's in this article, but I'm seeing so much overlap here, and it makes sense because it's congruent with where people might find themselves after a hard push in their career now needing a sabbatical and not not just a time where, oh, let me just sleep. There's a lot of intentionality to that time, but it's best practice for us to do this,

to take time to rest, refresh. There's going to be something at each stage of that what rest looks like, what refreshment looks like, and what resetting looks like. But giving ourselves that space is going to set us up best for what comes next, and we're going to feel able and equipped to more effectively step into that next season versus just plowing through and pushing past and moving beyond and going to the next thing and never pausing

and reflecting. There's so much more opportunity and personal growth and reflection that can happen if we rest, refresh, reset, and then get back into things with what this next season is. Mm hmm. I love that and what I also love to follow up any any rest, refresh, reentry is just good old fashion. I can't think of a word that starts with our, but the week that's right, It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William.

Maybe you paid off your mortgage, Maybe your car died, and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. U bills, Buffalo Bills, Bill Clinton, this is the bill of the week. Hi, Jen and Jill. My name's Christine. I'm calling from Salt Lake City, Utah, and I'm calling to share my bill of the week. On Monday, it was Valentine's Day and I gifted myself with paying off

my car loan. So that was super exciting. It was a little bit over eleven thousand dollars and it feels so good to have that done and not have that bill anymore. UM. It's also extra exciting because just a month ago, on January fifteenth, I got married and after Um. Going through our very generous gifts and sorting through all of our bills from the wedding, we had some money leftover that we were able to put towards the loan.

And not only are we um completely paid off for the wedding and now this car, but we are actually debt free now. So super exciting and a great way to start this new chapter of our life as a married couple. Oh, Christine, congratulation and that is amazing. Also, thank you for letting everyone know that we are six months behind on sharing bills, but we are so glad

we got to yours. Christine, this is so exciting. And not only paying off a car loan of over eleven thousand dollars, which is a lot to pay off, but congratulations on your marriage and how amazing to find yourself in a place of being in the black post wedding and being able to put some of that money towards debt payoff and savings goals, and how congruent with what we're talking about here, which it's Yeah, I feel like there's so many bills all in one, and what an

exciting time that was six months ago for you. But we're still within the year, which is great, and we don't stop calling in your bills. Yeah, I just know that if you haven't heard years from m March or April, that we just haven't gotten there yet yet. And if you do want to submit a bill, if you're not concerned about our backlog, visit Frugal Friends podcast dot com, slash bill, leave us your bill. We will get to it in six to eight months from now. And now

it's time for coming round. So today in our Vulnerability lightning Storm, we're going to talk about what's something that you experienced or didn't experience after paying off debt that no one told you about? You go first, I will go first. Again. I want to restate I love being debt free. I love the freedom, the mental freedom that it brings. So there was like some mental trouble doing it, but the but the effort was worth it for sure. I wouldn't have wanted to drag it out for a

you know, for ten years. But I will say that nobody told me that the level of hustle is great for a short period of time, um, like a year or two, but it is ultimately unhealthy and unsustainable, like just like that, like the depth payoff hangover, like I was saying, like you drink to keep the hangover at bay, Like that's really what I felt like I was doing. I just didn't have a clear plan for what to do next. And I wish I had had somebody telling me, like,

this is the whole picture, it's all important, um. And then just whatever you're working on at each time, that's the most important, but it's not at the sacrifice of everything else, your whole personhood, um. And I was. We were obsessed, and it was great for a short period of time. We did it for two years. God, I don't think I could do it any longer. I wouldn't recommend people do what we were doing for longer than we did it. But the hustle was unsustainable and unhealthy.

And when I finally did it, took a seizure and getting laid off, not in those orders. The layoff was first, then the seizure, and then several weeks later was having my son. That's what it took to make me stop, rest and reevaluate. And like I said, don't let unemployment, health problems and a new baby for the combination of the three. Don't do it like I did, Just do it on your own. Yeah, I mean it's indicative of you, your personality, your tenacity, but you're not unique in needing

permission to reevaluate and change the situation. And it stinks that it took that much to give you the permission. And hopefully for anyone listening, this can be a cautionary tale of pay attention because at the end of it, not caring for yourself well, it can be detrimental in

a variety of ways. But Jen, I have seen shifts that you've made as a result of that, Like you have talked about some of your learning since that debt payoff journey, and you really have implemented I think it took experiencing some of those things to find the podcast. We were running the podcast while all this happened. We had been doing this for over a year, so if you listen to episodes from our first year, like I

still had not come to this realization yet. So for me, there's a lot of things that and that I wasn't told. But I'm not going to say this is on other people, like other people should have told me or warned me things, but just my own understanding ignorance conversations, I suppose just things I wasn't aware of, and that's okay. We we don't know what we don't know, and we learn along

the way. But I think in looking back at what my debt payoff journey was and what I realized post that, there's a couple of things I think I didn't realize in the debt payoff journey that post debt payoff was going to be this world of unknown and lots more questions to answer. I think I really did view that once I get to that point, it's just coasting and and the world is going to be a better place.

I think I had this like fantastical view and again, like you're saying, Jen, there are some amazing benefits, Like I am still very celebratory and grateful about debt freedom, but it is not the rainbows and butterflies and unicorns that I think I thought that really more work was waiting for me on the other side of increasing my financial literacy, understanding what my goals are now, what is the best thing to do with this money? Again, I

was faced with that question. I didn't know that I wouldn't know how to answer that, and so coming to that other side was like, ah, crap, I thought that I would have arrived, but I'm not arrived. There's so much more like it is in some ways only now just begun. Which again there's gratitude in that because there's freedom of choice, but that freedom of choice can feel

debility tating. I also didn't realize that it's not the epitome of accomplishment, which I think that message had been given to me and I had embraced, and it ties into this concept that I have since learned that debt is neutral, and Jen, you've helped me to see that. I think I really did how they Debt is bad, Debt is shameful. No one should ever be in debt. I wish that I hadn't been, but now I know better,

and I'm going to dig my way out. And once I accomplished this, I'm gonna like I can look down on other people. Not not entirely, but it kind of like there's that messaging around it of this is the epitome of accomplishment, like all right, it's okay. If you got into it, you didn't know any better, but now get yourself out of it. And now I'm realizing, no, that's debt is neutral. And since debt freedom. I have chosen to take on debt and that had to be a shift of mindset. Debt in my house, like my

house is not paid off. I've taken out alone to do that. I don't have to be ashamed for that. So I think that this concept of oh, once you're debt free, never ever get yourself in that position again. Well, now, in some ways I am choosing to get myself into that position again, and I'm okay with it. But I feel armed and equipped to now vigate it in a way that I'm very mindful of and intentional with, and it is beneficial to me as I also accomplished these

other goals. So lots of learnings. Yeah, definitely that the debt is neutral thing was a big thing for me too, Like all like, some people are adamant that there is good debt and some people are adamant that there is only bad debt. All debt is what you like. Your purpose for the debt is neutral. What's uh growing or limiting is how you use it. But debt has no morals.

So thanks so much for listening. I hope that if you are paying off debt that this gave you hope encouragement perspective, and like we ask that you not take our word for it, that you are only inspired to do your own thinking about what's right for your life. Like we said, if you're all in and you're loving it and be all in. But if you're all in and you're miserable, like it's okay to pivot. It's you

have permission. And so we just hope that we are inspiring you um outside of the boxes that may be stifling you. And if you want more of that, then we have a private community where we do monthly challenges and inspire people to think, you know, think bigger about what they're capable of. And we want to congratulate one of our members, Ashley. She says, after the Spending Symposium, which is the online of that we had in July, taught me so much and gave me so much motivation.

My husband has never felt strongly about budgeting or our financial future, but seeing just how excited I was after listening to the symposium sessions, he has gotten a little more on board with my goals and plan baby steps. Uh. In the past three weeks, I've been able to get an emergency fund started up to seven dollars pay cash for our pups space surgery, join this membership and make

some awesome negotiations on my consumer debt payoff plans. I'm so excited and finally feeling that getting out of debt maybe possible. Thanks so much, Jen and Jill for creating such a wonderful podcast doing all you do. I don't know that I could have ever moved in this positive direction if I hadn't stubled upon your podcast. So excited for this journey and glad to be a member of this club. Congratulations Ashley, what amazing steps you're taking and

if I can say, those are not baby steps. You have great drives in a very short amount of time and keep going at a sustainable pace. Yes, so thanks for listening. If you want to check out our monthly membership, head to Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash club. You see what challenge we have coming up next, See you next week. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.