Should You Still Be Listening to Dave Ramsey?

salacious or extremist content. And so what you're gonna get here today is really an answer to the honest question

should you still be listening to Dave Ramsey? And we have firm stances on that, and we are going to go through a few articles that we found on the internet with opposing views and saying what we do and don't agree with each of them, because there are So that is what today's episode is and spoiler alert, freedom remains the same it is and will continue to be our message to make your own choices and do what's

best for you. And so yes, that's and that's going to be part of our advice and answer to this question, right I do want to say at the start of this I think that there's something really glamorous right now, at least in the financial world, to kind of bash people, for lack of a better word, or it's specifically Dave Ramsey, and so I hope and I know Jen and I

it is our aim to not do that. We want to specifically be looking at what is going to be financially beneficial for us, not get a leg up in this industry because of who we do or don't like their personhood. So we want to be very careful about that. At the start here, we think that it's important to be talking about because well, I don't want to discount someone's humanity or who they are as a person. When we're talking about where we do and don't get advice

from what we do or don't follow. It's important to have this conversation of who are the big talking heads in the industry, what's helpful, what's not Where can we be going for valuable helpful resources and tips. So that's the perspective that we're coming at this from, partially because it is a topic of conversation right now, UH is should I be listening to any Ramsey. There's so many people out there talking, and so many different opinions flying,

and a lot of angry people. We have encountered a lot of angry two and just and we want to already angry? Are we just? We want to bring it back down a little bit. We want to answer these questions. We want to bring a realistic approach, we want to be kind, and we want to speak freedom. And so that's the message. I am sure we're still probably going to take people off, so we'll check the inbox in

about a month. But yeah, but first before we start making people upset, let's have a word from our sponsors, the Frugal Friends Shop. Oh I just love how that sounds. I wish I could go there. I can go there digitally though. So to help you achieve your financial goals faster this year, we're giving our listeners thirty dollars no

minimum spend to use in the Frugal Friends Shop. We have several challenge workbooks to help you on everything from budget ating and impulse spending to minimalism and habits, all the essentials. So head to fruital Friends dot shop to check them out and use the code New Year three zero for thirty dollars off at check out because you know it's a new year and you're getting thirty dollars off New Year three zero spend, So go get yourself a challenge workbook. This episode is also brought to you

by the Radical Middle. It's that place that's in between two extremes, and, contrary to some belief, is neither neutral nor complacent. The radical middle is a firm stance on taking what works and leaving what doesn't. Those who take a stance in the radical middle will often endure side effects including headache, nausea, loss of Facebook friends, criticism of held beliefs, and more. The radical middle. If you're looking

for a perfect side, you won't find it here. Yes, oh who and that's it, folks, that's our on ourthing. You need to know to respond too, Well, there you go? Okay? So uh. If you are um still a fan of Frugal Friends after this episode, you want to queue up another very similar perspective. Episode one thirteen. We talked to Merrily of Easy Budget about how her family modified the Baby Steps to pay off over a hundred thousand dollars of debt. And that's one of our most popular episodes.

She has an amazing debt free story and we love debt free stories on the Frugal Friends podcast. Another episode I would encourage you to queue up is actually one not from our show. It is from Choose five and it is episode five every It's titled why Everyone Needs Dave Ramsey and why you should Ignore Him, and that episode all the way back from January. It was the first episode of Choose I I I ever listened to.

It was how I found Choose f I back in and it is the inspiration for this episode because in two thousand seventeen, my husband and I had just finished paying off seventy eight thousand dollars of debt in two years, using the Total Money Makeover kind of as our our guide for that two years, and we were just coming off of that and I was really at a loss, like obviously I knew which steps were next, but I

did refer to it as a debt payoff hangover. And it was this episode that really taught me that I could succeed financially and do things that were different from the advice that I had just been consuming daily. I was a daily listener of the Dave Ramsey Show. I was daily taking steps to pay off debt, and so this opened up a new world for me. It is

what I needed in that inner rim. And it took a kind and firm stance on the philosophy and so but that was back in I think things have kind of escalated since then, um, and so we'd love to take a fresh stance on it. But if you want to get the feel for where I was several years ago, then definitely episode five of Choose f I is another one to queue up. It's so helpful to hear that context and what was helpful for you and useful And again we're not doing this episode just to throw our

hat in the ring. We are genuinely hoping that US two can be helpful for people to identify what's going to be best for you. Where does freedom exist? I know, often, especially for those who aren't in the financial space, aren't talking about personal finance. Often. Dave Ramsey's the most well known personal finance person out there, and so oftentimes he's just the one that's first recommended. At least that's what

I see. And here in the circles that I have been in that you know aren't connected to the personal finance space, and so I think this is helpful to take a look at, well, what does this mean as we start to enter into curiosities about our own personal finances and making decisions that we don't just have to go to the low hanging fruit. Low hanging fruit is great, it's easy to pluck, but then where can we go from there? Too? So that's helpful is what we want

to do today. Absolutely, So our first article is from Arrest Your Debt Dave Rams. Baby steps are outdated? Find out why for the most true and unbuy it. I don't necessarily agree on and honestly a few things I find contradictory. But that's with any author. They can they throw their own opinion. As podcasts, we also put our opinion in. So it's going to go through the baby steps and see what the author has to say and

then also what we think. So let's us let's start with baby step one Jill Yeah, and I will highlight there's a there's a lot of good things that come before we get into the baby steps in the article, so feel free to check it out and to find that radical middle. Our sponsor today like take a look at both sides, like what we're gonna be doing in in this article. But so, as many of us know, Dave Ramsey is well known for the baby steps, this blueprint and guide path forward and what do we do

with our finances? Which I will say at the star, I mean our opinions will get woven into this. So take that with a grain of salt. But I would say when I first started on my personal finance journey, that was helpful for me. Dave Ramsey is a part of my story and you know some of the decisions that we've made, So I can't ignore that, and that's there's something really tangible about that, and I think useful to say what just where do I start? And then

what should I look at next? So so Dave Ramsey and the people around him did that these baby steps. In the first one many of you are familiar with is to start an emergency fund. Okay, awesome. However, and as this article points out, uh that emergency fund recommendation is listed at one thousand dollars for everybody, no matter who you are, and that was written in two and it was never updated. So we are in quick math, folks,

we are in two. So that is a good thirty years for already solid years later, and so for you know, just for the sake of the fact that incomes have risen, cost of goods have risen. According to an inflation calculator, to get the buying power of one thousand dollars, you need over one thousand, nine hundred dollars today. So even at that, the recommendation should at least be two thousand. But we also know that there's many other approaches to

a starter emergency fund. Again, I will say, for myself, when I was just starting out in my own financial journey, the one thousand dollars is actually like a really helpful I liked having a number and I liked that that felt attainable to me at the time, even in my literal place of like financial poverty. UM, I had many other resources available to me, but I was legitimately financially

below the poverty line. So for me that was helpful, but again still outdated, Like if it was attainable for me living below the poverty line, then probably, yeah, we need to relook at this number. Yeah, absolutely, I I think for a starter emergency fund, I would say some people feel better having a fully funded emergency fund before

they start paying off debt. I didn't feel that way, and I don't think necessarily Sometimes people will use that security blanket to procrastinate in paying off debt, and I don't think that's healthy either. But yeah, definitely a more appropriate number in two is two thousand dollars, especially with the rate of inflation we have been seeing, especially if you have kids, or a single income, or own a home. All of that, there are just so many reasons to

um up that starter emergency fund. So let's look at baby step two, pay off all of your debt and using the debt snowball method. So let's look at the two parts of that. But of you may be familiar with the debt snowball. It is putting your debts in order from smallest to largest and paying off the smallest up to the largest. Some of you may also be familiar with the alternative version, which is the debt avalanche, which is listing your debts out highest interest rate to

lowest and paying it off that way. And that is the method the author of this article recommends, but they use kind of they use a very radical example for why they recommend this. So they're saying, if you've got twenty dollars debt and eighteen dollars in student lawyers by doing the debt avalanche versus the debt snowball because the interest rates are so different, but in fact, the household credit outlier with ab salutely you should be focusing on

that before lower interest debts like student loans. But in the average, I think it's much more important that we look to kind of behavioral economics and psychology and focus on what's going to get us results long term versus mathematically. So the avalanche, yes, it does save you more money

if you're in the average. I've calculated this several times using median credit card and student loan averages, and you really by using a same same scenarios, same standards, you say maybe a couple of hundred dollars by using the debt avalanche. Obviously I'm using um American medians, so you

should look at the numbers for yourself. But I think it's much more important that we pay attention to our psychology, and the debt snowball does give you more upfront winds, which your motivation is lowest when you're starting any journey, so I think it's important to frontload that confidence and those winds so that you are more likely to finish because you pay you save more money by paying off your debt than you do by giving up, and so

that I think that is probably mathematically accurate. I don't know how to calculate that, right, Okay, So you can also use a combination. There is nobody telling you you have to pick one or the other. We used a combination. So we had debts with pretty similar interest rates, and we chose to start with the highest one first. But it had a bunch of little ones inside of it. So we did the snowball inside of that and we we did it. We made it our own. So do

whatever you want. Yeah, and we just had We just had one debt, so we just did the debt payoff methods. We're all going to find ourselves in different places and you can. You can very much. So if you want to do the debt avalanche, you can make your own quick winds and and set up systems for that. But that is the this behavioral psychology behind quick winds is there, and whichever when you choose, incorporated into the method you use. So the next part of this is to pay off

all the debt. Whatever method you use, and that is some that's sometimes argued as don't invest until you're completely consumer debt free. Uh. And I will say, I think it's okay to invest while paying off debt, but it's

also okay not to. And so we are big propos e's of focusing on one big goal at a time that I think is the biggest takeaway when you're trying to reach financial independence, reach financial freedom, every milestone on your journey should be focused on with intention that we're not trying to do multiple goals, multiple big goals at a time, and paying off debt is a really big goal. So neither of us invested while paying off debt. I

do think you should get your employer match. And again this for me, this is all opinion right now, but get that employer match. It's something you are entitled to. It's like saying to your employer, if you don't take it that no, you don't have to pay me everything you've promised me. I will give this back to you. So don't do that. Get your employee match because you

deserve it. And I am a big proponent for investing, but I think I'm I'm more of a proponent for progress and I think when we focus on multiple goals at once, when you have too many irons on the fire, one will get forgotten about at least one. So know what you're capable of and just and focus in on that, put your resources in on that, and don't be ashamed or guilted by people saying you have to do five

things at once. I will say that if you were at the end of your debt freedom journey, consider maxing out a roth ira if you're close to debt freedom. Um, we became debt free in August seen and that was enough time for us to max out seventeens roth ire A. I know a hundred percent of people who are debt free would go back and add a few months to their debt payoff journey if they could get an extra six thousand. In the wrath era, the limit is low and once tax day comes, you lose it for the

previous year. And so if it comes down to adding a few months to your debt payoff journey to be able to put a little extra in a wrap era, that is one thing. Um. Thankfully we didn't have to do differently because it just was a good timing. But I would say that that's a really good reason to invest while still paying off your debt. Jill thoughts, I know, I just like it's all excellent, and I think continues

to highlight this tension, this radical middle of all. Right, here's this step two, here's the exact ways that it's prescribed, and yet we're finding alternatives to that that are still

relevant and wise advice. And so I think part of our argument in highlighting this article and highlighting these stuff ups is to say that there is freedom, there's there's this path, the very strict and stringent baby steps here, and we know that Dave Ramsey says do not veer from them, and yet we're also saying that we see people veer from them with wisdom, intentionality, thought research, and

that too goes well. So I think it's helpful to see the highlight here of what is the very specific thing that this is saying, and what does that that mean and where is their potentially wiggle room. Of course, we all decide which wiggle room we're going to take, which path we're going to follow. But again, as we asked the questions, should we still be listening, It's like, well, what do you want? What kind of freedom and permissions? Do you want what kind of person? Yeah? Are you

what works best for you? Yeah? So I think I would say the main thing I want to get across for baby step two is investor, don't invest, but work on a singular goal with intention. If you're going to invest, make it small, make it unnoticeable, and and work with your numbers to see. You know, if it's going to take you six years to pay off your debt, you for sure want to be investing like while you while you do that. But if it's going to take you maybe a year or two, then maybe maybe you don't.

Maybe you just hit those those debt numbers really hard. It's up to you work with intention on one big thing at a time. Baby Step number three is as far as Dave Ramsey's plan goes, is to fully fund and emergency fund. Fully funded emergency fund, it's a lot of fun and that that is three to six months

of expenses. This is still standard advice. We don't have much push back on this, other than to say, choose three or six months on your job based on your job's volatility, whether or not you have two incomes in your household, and your own comfort level. So taking all of those things into consideration, choosing what's going to be best for you, whether it is three months or six months, and then we would say no less than three months and no more than six because it is important to

invest as much as possible early. You do you do want to be moving forward and not just solely focusing on stacking a ton of money into a fully funded emergency fund. Again, it's for an emergency. So no less than three because you want to find yourself prepared. No more than six because you want to be focusing on other goals. Once you reach that in six months, you will do fine. If that income goes away you find

yourself in a crazy emergency. Yeah, yeah, we we hope statistics will will show about six months is pretty good. So we feel confident in saying that that's still standard advice. So maybe step four this is this is it. This is the breaker. This is the big deal breaker. Uh, you're right, okay, I am. It's a good thing it's cold outside because I would be sweating. Uh. Invest fient of your income in raw di RaSE and tax advantage accounts, which is still very standard advice. UM percent is fine

for those starting early, maybe in your early twenties. But most people will say is ideal for for for most people, regardless of when you're when you're starting, unless you're making well into six figures, there's no need to save fifty of your income. I love you fire people, but I mean a number that big can cause a lot of unnecessary stress and pressure. And yeah, I mean play with

your numbers. So bank rate actually has a great retirement calculator that we will link in the show notes, and it allows you to play around with your with percentages specific to your numbers. So yeah, and it's just the retirement playing calculator from bank rate and it's a really good one. But yeah, so so to honestly, twenties a personal opinion of mine, but depending on people's income, it

may be more or less. I used to when I would listen to the show, I hope people would always be calling in see how they could get around the fifercent rule and invest less, and Dave would get mad, And now I understand why. It's because investing is so much more powerful than paying off debt. And that's not emphasized a ton on the show. But baby step four is the most important baby step. Baby step two is only important because it makes babies step four easier. And

it comes down to that, like that what the one thing? Like, what's the one thing? By doing it makes everything easier or unnecessary. That's that's the baby step two. It makes investing easier, and so that's why we focus on that one thing. Get it done, and then we can move on to the bigger and better things, which are investing. So that's not the part I have a problem within. I love raw fires and tax advantaged retirement accounts because the biggest fees that you will pay are the taxes

of when you are working for your money. When money works for itself and compounds on interest, that money is tax at a far less rate than what you are taxed on for your time, which to me is unethical, but hey whatever. So you know, if you see a law ever to get that abolished, vote for it. But you should be invested because the money that your money is making essentially saves you more money than when you are working, like for spending exchanging your time for dollars.

So it's more efficient to have your money working for itself essentially, So that's great too. It's Dave's actual investing advice and that's the only thing I will say about his advice that is bad because it's not in the best interests of his listeners. It is manipulative and self serving. Overall of you are unfamiliar. He insists that people use

financial advisors that sell actively managed funds. He recommends this because he says they can get higher returns than low cost index funds, which may not even be incorrect, though time and time again we have seen that actively managed funds do not outperform low cost index funds, even the ones that do it not proven they can do it consistently over forty years, and due to their high fees, investors who do out earn an index fund still earn less over time over the long run because they are

investing less because of the fees. So, if anything, it is a wash, I guess. But the fact that you invest less because of upfront fees does mean that index fund low cost index funds do outperform time and time again, and no actively managed fund manager can stay consistently above the market for forty years. That it's just never been done. So Dave Ramsey will never change his stance on this.

Index funds were available, they were still a quarter of the price of actively managed mutual funds, so they were still lower cost, they were not as easily available, so it was still a good idea to go through a finance advisor to get your your your mutual funds. But now with technology, it's made it so simple for the average investor in the beginning advestor to create their own portfolio, start their own retirement funds, and do it all on their own without having to pay a commission based sales

agent or even a fee only um financial advisor. We love certified financial planners who charge based on just an hourly rate versus the commission on what they sell you like. We we love certified financial planners, but you don't even need one to get started. But Dave Ramsey will never change his stance on this because his endorsed local provider program, his his actual financial advisor advertising programs. What platform is what it is, it's the most profitable arm of his

entire company. So the money the it's not just advisors, it's realtors and other off but the money of these advisors like pay him every month to advertise their business makes more than financial Peace sales radio ads on the show book sales, everything else. So those are marketing tools

to get you. Everything else is just a marketing tool to get you to sign up with e l P s um which from people I have spoken to about their experience with e l P s will tell you the majority that those people they don't have to follow the Dave Ramsey system like to advertise, they just have to say they do. And so I would say, before blindly following financial advice, we should always ask why. That's

probably my favorite quote of this whole article. Before blindly following financial advice, we should always ask why or who's getting paid. So that's the probably the second most thing I'm passionate about in that's contrarian um to the whole Ramsey ecosystem. We'll talk about the first thing in the

next article. M uh. And I'm so glad Jen that you've highlighted this and I can hear your bash before this, and it's part of why, you know, before we hit the record button, Gen was like, I've been wanting to do a show like this for like since we started this podcast, and I think partially in part two the podcast you referenced earlier that you listen to that helped you on your journey. And so I think again when we say we want to use this platform, the Frugal

Friends platform to help people. Here we go this is like the main part of this episode that we hope would be helpful for people, that there there are ulterior motives for many people. We try to be as full disclosure as possible with some of the advice that we give that, yes, sometimes we talk about businesses, corporations, organizations who are giving us a kickback to talk about that.

We will be transparent about that, and we will at the end of the day always speak freedom to that that there's not just one way there all are other options that you can pursue. And so highlighting this very piece, even if you follow all of the other advice and steps strictly and stringently, this is important to know that there is a very real reason money lining the pocket to you know, push this specific form of investing that

we would push against. Yeah, and I'm not guessing on the fact that the ELP program makes the most money in Ramsey Solutions. Somebody who worked at Ramsey Solutions who does not anymore told me this, So I'm not guessing and I'm not using We don't use personal opinions and education when we're trying to help people. And and I just I'm super passionate and how unethical this is. But

I wouldn't let my personal opinions. I don't know. This is just something that I feel is extremely unethical and it's a personal opinion, but it's also like in reality unethical, yeah, because it utilizes people's Like we love it. If we can find the one thing and we only have to follow that one thing, it is harder work to blend and think for ourselves and figure out what's going to work best for us. And so then it is disappointing when the one thing might lead you astray and might

not actually be in your best interests. And so we are advocating for a blend. Okay, let's move on to Baby Step five, which talks about funding kids college education. So okay, yes, I'm going to speak now my opinion. I think this is fine advice. It's it's fine where it sits in the version of Next Steps, But I think this also is irrelevant for those of us who

don't have children. Uh, And people may choose various approaches as it relates to whether or not this is a financial goal of yours, So it is up to you on how extensively you would choose to do this. We Jen and I would recommend a five twenty nine gen uses backer. You can get sidebar fifteen dollars by signing up at Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash backer if you are interested in setting up a five twenty nine for your kids specifically to invest in their education. I

will say personally, I don't have kids, Jill talking. Who knows if I ever will, So this is partially irrelevant, but I have considered it. If I do have kids, I'm not servant that this is going to be a

priority for me. I am becoming while I have my master's degree, I am becoming less and less enamored with UM higher education, the entire system, the overall value that it actually brings for the amount of money that it costs, and what education is going to mean in the future, what employees are going to require from people as far as skill set and what they're able to do. I just think things are shifting. So that's that's a whole

other like I'm sure unpopular opinion, but there's room here. Again, of course, I'm going to speak freedom to choose what's going to be relevant to what you actually desire. Yeah, I agree. I put five thousand in there, and and now I don't touch it, and we'll just see what happens um and if it's not enough, he'll pay for the rest. If he didn't go to college, I will

give it to a grandchild or somebody else. So that's that is really the extent of how I use it, all right, So moving on to baby step number six, pay off your house. This is also a contentious one to especially in the fire movement or real estate. People love to leverage debt in mortgages because it is some of the lowest inter US debt that you can get and the return on investment is higher. So this is we feel personal preference too, So we don't plan to

pay off our home early. We refinanced last year to a or maybe like a year and a half ago, to a fifteen year fixed mortgage, and it is saving us over a hundred thousand dollars on the total cost to own our home, and for us, that's enough. We don't plan on selling our home, and if you know, if we do, we just build equity in it faster. But we also know. Our primary residence is not a investment, honestly, it's a place to live. If we weren't paying a mortgage,

we'd be paying a rent. We may choose to buy a bigger house with a higher mortgage. Who knows. We don't know. We can't predict the future, but we feel good about where we're at, not paying it off faster than a fifteen year, but we moved to a fifteen year so that we could save extra money. But so I did some calculations and it shows I'd save about twenty dollars by putting an extra five a month at my mortgage. But I would rather put that money in an IRA or into real estate to make more than

that in the long run. So that's kind of where I sit on that. But we know a ton of people who have paid off their mortgages and they love it. It's a it's a weight lifted, and I fully support that too, absolutely. And finally step seven is build wealth and give, And I can't argue there. Okay, you've done all these other things, you've paid off your debt, you're investing, You've thought about your children and what you want to

set them up for. Excellent, build wealth and gives. So in a lot of ways, those who have followed Dave Ramsey steps. I mean, there's a lot of people out there who are doing excellent and they are at this

stage of building wealth and giving. That's awesome. It's a lot of people who have not followed Dave ram these steps and they are building wealth and giving, and we just we encourage this aim, especially the generosity piece, and I am personally very grateful that this is part of that message, that this is part of those steps, and it is also a part of our message to be generous.

We don't aim at frugality just to hold tightly the resources that we have, but also so that we can give to others and care for those around us and our immediate communities and neighborhoods and beyond. For me, it's a big why behind frugality. So I am I'm glad that it's here. Absolutely uh so are next article we

will not spend as much time in. But I wanted to find an article with some defensive points on Dave Ramsey that we're not from the Ramsey Solutions website, and I actually I couldn't find many it I could find one. I found one I'm the whole Internet and I and it has become super popular to bash Dave Ramsey. So I found so many articles, uh, and videos and stuff just bashing him as a human being. And we we don't human beings are are human beings, and we don't

bully anyone no matter how much they bully anybody. That's not what we are here to do. So we found this one in defense of Dave Ramsey. And so this is where we really want to start talking about, not just so we covered the financial advice, and now we want to cover the methods for executing financial advice. Whether you go with Dave Ramsey's baby steps or you veer off um. He also has very distinct methods for keeping

you going on the path. And so that is kind of where we're getting to here, Jill, I will let you take it away. So this article comes from Campfire home setting, and again we're just showing you different sides of this coin, what various people are saying about this. And I think the one thing that stands out to

me from this article is just the top critiques. So the the article goes through what they have heard and seen and bread as top critiques of Dave Ramsey, Dave Ramsey solutions, and then they then go into all of their arguments over some of these top critiques and why

they still support Dave Ramsey unashamedly. And so some of those top critiques include things that have to do with this personhood, like the Internet has attacked all things and we've we've experienced that too, even on our for podcast show. Critiques about things we can't change, like the fact that Dave Ramsey is an old white man. That's a critique he's received. Uh, none of that he can change. Okay,

I'm looking through old white mail. He can't change that. However, that does morph into the reality that we can choose, though it doesn't mean that we have to follow one person. Of course, this isn't what the article is saying. This is my response to that top critique that we now live in an environment and context and setting where there are many voices and we can find the voice that speaks to us, or the collection of voices that speak

to us. That if hearing messaging and perspective from a position of privilege is not helpful, useful, or relevant to you, then fantastic find someone who is helpful, useful, and relevant to you. So I'm not I'm not going to stand on that platform of but just listen to him, like, yes, there are perspectives that come from him that are a

result of him being elderly male. Yeah, And I mean so I think I think one of I think this critique in particular is a response to the lack of diversity in personal finance, and I hope that representation matters. And it's why we we fill our if you notice, we don't have many interviews, but we tend to try and stick to women and women of color because we believe that women like diversity, especially female diversity, is important and personal finance and I love some you know, old

white men. You know, they're super kind, I mean, in my personal kind, smart wise, but they have had so much you know, I guess advertising and had so much platform for so long, and representation right now, I think, um, and diversity is super important. Um. And so I don't want to vilify anyone for being an old white man. But it still doesn't mean like I'm going to give them more of a platform. Um. But that's so that's kind of maybe the heart behind our our interview selection process.

If you if you hadn't noticed it. Yeah, it's not entirely a fairiason to listen to or not listen to somebody. But if that's a barrier for anyone in particular, then yeah,

we don't. We don't have to. There are plenty of other voices out there who are going to be helpful, and so maybe connected to that, maybe a little bit peripheral to that is another critique that his advice is outdated, And we just went through an entire article that kind of high lights some of those key points, what's outdated, what remains, and so yes, I don't think that that can be completely argued. There there are aspects that are outdated.

Why he sticks to it dogmatically, that's maybe another story yet to see an article about that, But okay. The next critique is that he doesn't take into account various financial situations. And yes, there is a very one size fits all approach to Dave Ramsey's baby steps that makes it really difficult for people who find themselves in alternative situations that aren't your cookie cutter, status quo middle class American situation. This might not be an approachable advice for you,

And that's a strong critique, and you know. Of course, this article pushes back on that by saying, yeah, but if you still follow it, you'll do well. It's like there can be a tone deaf peace to this. Of yes, but there's a whole population of people saying this isn't helpful for them. Uh and okay, so there's gonna be those who love it and those who don't. And again freedom, Yeah,

I think we have to. So I heard this really good advice from a mentor recently where he said, do as I did, not as I do, And so he Dave Ramsey, older white guy, like multi multi millionaire, he's he's so wealthy from his business. Of course you can't take you can't follow what he's doing right now. It is unrealistic. He is outside most of our income brackets. So if you're looking at the person he is today, of course he is completely out of touch. And I'll

say this all the time. It's it's super important that we that you get some of some, not all, but some of your financial content from people who are paying off debt and who have just recently paid off debt, if that's one of your goal goals, because they are most in touch with what's going on. But then it's also important to get some content from people who are far outside and far away who have the perspective. So you need uh some you know, advice content consumption from

everybody on the journey. You get a well rounded picture of the advice. You can't just consume one like one's sphere that Yeah, And and so I think what the author is saying, simply saying the plan didn't account for something I don't have, does not mean we throw our hands up and go home. I think that's actually really wise, because we're all about the radical middle. Take what works,

leave what doesn't. And that doesn't mean we promote something that we don't agree with, but we are not going to completely vilify a human for the things that don't work for us. Yeah. And I think that goes right hand in hand with the radical middle that we're talking about. And this concept of taking hold of one thing without letting go of another. I think that's another key concept for how do we find the radical middle. It's not a letting go of something to go chase after something else, right,

that's the extreme, that's the pendulum swing. But how do we hold on to what is helpful on this side as well? As what's helpful on the other side, and so find the middle ground for ourselves. Yeah. But then finally the next critique that I think we'd be remiss to not highlight here, This is the number one. This is the this is the number one. This is what you've been waiting for. The approach. M tell us about the approach, Jen, So it is terms like so and so.

This is where my husband Travis and I differ on how we view Dave Ramsey. So I'll give you a little insight into how we view it. Dave uses terms and has increasingly used this in the last several years, like strategies that are are angry, shame inducing, guilt inducing, but some people refer to as tough love, buckling down um. The author himself references um like the military and their tactics, um, and which is he is in support of. And so he finds this system to work for him, which is

kind of similar to Travis. He needed tough love to assent a quote unquote tough love to really kind of buckled down. Whereas for us, Jill and I, we know guilt and shame and fear do work faster. We are more afraid of losing things than we are excited for what we will gain. So the methods based on are

based on psychology and what's most efficient. Dave is very efficient in in the methods that he uses to motivate people, but they are also unhealthy, and so we know that through encouragement, flexibility, grace, community, it's not as efficient, but you get to the same destination, maybe a little long, may take a little longer, but you get to the same destination with fewer scars. And that is the path that we are taking, and that is the only path

that we feel is right. And so this is the number one reason we no longer have Ramsey personalities on our show. We no longer get invitations to go to Ramsey events. Um, and this one will it lasts it was. So that's and that we that's our hard stance, that's our radical middle hard stance is that there is one right way to do it, and the right way is flexibility and grace and recognizing unique situations and the messy

taking the messy path. That is the healthier path, and maybe the slower path, but it is it is the right path. I've got to say, even as I was reading this article again, while I want to hold both while I want to take what is useful, like take the meat, spit out the bones. Reading through the article, what did feel a little ikey to me when I got to those parts of You know, even the writer is is using terms like how bad do you want?

It references to the military and their tactics and how we need to have a militaristic approach to our finances. And I do believe that for some that's what they want, that's what they would identify works for them. I will say, though, it's not what works for most people. And the military is a very specific machine and system that is producing like weapons of war, and I'm just not sure how relevant that is when it comes to like our personal

lives and finds. If I would say, if that is what you want, what you think you need, that it's time to kind of look deeper and figure out why you need that, why you reference that's the reference. Ultimately, I hold an opinion and value system that says it is kindness that leads us towards change and a turning in the non beneficial habits and behaviors that we have. I do not believe that shame is a beneficial mode invader.

It can produce some behavioral changes, but like you said, Jen, it's it's not without scars, it's not without unhealth where it ends us up not only in our view of self, but our view of others in the world around us. And I'm I'm speaking from personal experience, personal opinion, and my own background in mental health to say that this is it's not useful. Uh, And we do not want

to align ourselves or motivate people in that way. And we want to put a strong caution out there if this is the way that behavior change or motivation is happening, that again, it's not without cost for us. If it's fear, guilt and shame that is moving us towards some sort of end goal. Yes, so you know how we combat the guilt and shame that's out there with fun and the bill of the That's that's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby

was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. Stuck bills, Buffalo bills, Bill Clinton, this is the bill of the week. Hi, Jen, Hi, Jill, This is Kate from Illinois, and my bill of the week is I just sent in my first mortgage payment. We bought our first home in this really wild market right now. But it's a great house for us. We were able to put down ten percent. Feeling really great

about that. Not too much house and h we're just we're just tempted to be entering this extra step into adulthood. So that is my bill of the week. Cheers, ladies. Oh that's awesome. Yes, congratulations. It was an insane market, so that definitely deserves a a bill celebration. Oh, in a specially exciting moment. To be able to pay ten down payment on your house, to be getting into a house, how wonderful. We hope that you enjoy every minute of that.

And it can be exciting to have a bill that we don't mind paying because it means we have a home of our own that we can call call home. Well done, and congrats, are celebrating with you. If you want to submit your bill of the week, visit Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash bill to leave us a bill. And now it's time for learning a lightning role. And all right, aren't you glad to change the pace for the second half of the show of the second the

last five lightning fast. Yeah. Uh, some of the most helpful advice we've received in thinking for ourselves because we think for ourselves. We think that having a well rounded view of personal finance information is important and you need to think for yourself because your situation is unique, and if your situation is not unique, your desires are unique

and that makes your financial plan unique. So this is how we started into our you know, adventure, from the money advice we were being told by Dave Ramsey and going off the beaten path. For me, I think it was just this overall permission for freedom that it doesn't have to one way. I think again, when I was first on the journey, my introduction to how do you

handle finance as well was Financial Peace University. That's like my legitimate story and part of my journey, And so I did have that idea of Okay, I'm going to follow this to a t. And I think it was both in realizing my own circumstances were different from what Dave Ramsey steps permitted, like I couldn't actually do some of the things. Uh, it just wasn't attainable for me, and my situation looked different and I just wasn't finding like any off ramp or little branch or shoot that

I could follow. And so both in kind of starting to explore hearing from others within my circle, talking with other people about finances, but then like finding other resources, which in large part as to do with the community

that you and I have built. Gen friendship with you and introduction to different other personal finance platforms has been really helpful and continuing me on that journey of freedom, and then what I found and experienced as a result of finding what works for me, and I would describe freedom as the opposite of shame, and shame is not just associated with you know, personal finance, but of course we can find a lot of shame in the personal

finance space, spouted off by others and ourselves. I think we can be our own worst critic and enemy in this process, and our own internal narrative can be really non beneficial for yeah, seeing what the goals and achievements that we actually want to see. Like on the one hand, yeah, it could be somewhat of a motivator, but it can also be the biggest barrier and paralyzer and derailer of whole time. So I think that's that's what gets in

the way. It's it's a huge stumbling block. And so where I have found freedom, kindness, lack of fear, guilt and shame. That has been like the best piece and advice that I've honestly received from people as I continued to think for myself find a path that works for me. Yeah, I think any advice that insists that the ends justify the means is advice that you should not be listening to because in reality, the end is death. So we are always living in the journey. The ends never justify

the means. Life is the means. And I think we were yeah, we were on a podcast. We were doing a podcast last night. Um it was the Avocado Toast budget. They have a really acute couple. They call their listeners toast Ese and and yeah, we were talking about you know, the journey and uh, to enjoy the journey, permission to enjoy the journey, And I was like, yeah, because the destination is death because you have it's all about the journey.

So freedom is the is a goal so that we can enjoy the journey more so, Yeah, so that was a Yeah, permission for freedom is a huge thing for me. So it was a conglomeration of advice from discovering podcasts. I it started with the Choose if I podcast, which, in full transparency, I don't listen to it anymore. I don't think a lot of financial podcasters actually listen to financial podcasts because you know, you know, we for for obvious reasons. Um. But in the you know, those episodes

very much taught me an alternative way of thinking. And then I would also say, Paula Pant Joe Sulcihi, I have to credit them afford anything and stacking Benjamin's respectfully respectively, they say, I mean saved me from choosing a one of those e l P s. I had a meeting with one and I just got this ikey feeling like looking at all of the fees and being a naturally or being frugal, having been trained for two years to become frugal and become an intentional consumer, I just felt

icky about all of the front load front end loads and fees and um it was through listening to them talk about index funds that I learned an alternative way. So I would say It's a a collection of advice that I have heard from those who have gone before me, and now my hope is to be that voice for somebody else that I am not telling them what to do, but I am telling them what I have done and what I have seen and helping them navigate those waters

so they can have the same story for someone else. Awesome, Jen, And so in summary, should you listen to Dave Ramsey still you decide and know that there is freedom and permission and other alternative voices out there speaking helpful advice. Find the path that works for you. Yeah, And I hope that you by the end of this know where we stand and we welcome everyone. I don't. We don't. Whoever you are, whatever path you follow, whatever income bracket,

you are welcome here. This is a community that you can feel safe exploring finances, exploring your financial options, and so this is a safe space for you to do that. And that's the part that we play in this ecosystem. I agree. Thank you everyone so much for listening, and we want to thank you also for your kind reviews on Apple Podcasts, because it's like the only platform that actually allows you to leave review like this one fun informative and thought provoking. It comes from tater bug like

it makes me angry. For some Taters it happens to be five stars. I love listening to Jen and Jill. Their chemistry is great, dialogue is thoughtful but not stiff, and I really just enjoy spending time with them. Great approachable, thought provoking content. Oh I love that phrase spending time with us, Like that is what we're doing together while we sit in your years. We're spending time together. I like that image. And yeah, we hope you find safety

and permission and freedom and helpful useful tips here. Absolutely, And we want to thank our friends who share these episodes on social media as well. When you do, it helps more people find the show and be helped by this radical middle idea. And so when you share the latest episode on Instagram as a post or in your stories or reels, We're going to add you to our monthly drawing. For every five tags and reviews we get each month, we are giving away fifty dollars for you

to spend in the Frugal Friends Shop. So keep leaving us reviews wherever you listen to podcasts, primarily Apple. Leave us reviews on Apple and send the screenshot to reviews at Frugal Friends podcast dot com to enter yourself into that drawing, and don't forget to tag us on social. We'll see you next week hopefully by Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Syrian M. How do you feel, gen and you're still sweaty? Well, it's cold. It's cold in my house, so um so that's kind of saved me.

You know. We keep the keep the heat off for as long as possible. Yeah, well we did it. We did the thing that you wanted to do for so so long, I know. And it's such a long episode where too, there's so much to say, especially as you seek to be even handed with this and kind and helpful and useful. That's always our goal. And yeah, and seek to minimize the one star reviews. Hey, if you don't have haters, you're not doing it, right am. I Well, that's what the haters say. But we still like the

five stars. I love the five stars. Actually, right now is a great time to leave us a five star review because we anticipate several one star reviews and it also enters you into drawing. Okay, ye