Should You Focus On Paying Down Debt Right Now?

you be focusing on debt? And I see kind of the same one as how hard should you be focusing on like storing up cash right now? Too? So I think we'll touch on that one a little bit as well, but specifically on debt. And it is straightforward, I mean spoiler alert. We love advocating for paying off tet. We think it brings a ton of freedom, but there are some things to consider. It's not incredibly black and white, so we want to we want to take a look

at that today, but first our sponsors. Today's episodes also brought to you by Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Why you ask because I need you to know that not all needs are created equal. While some needs are more important than others. Pursuing any need that improves your life is not bad. Maslow's hierarchy of needs the triangle for your basic, psychological and self fulfillment needs. Wow. Yeah, and I think

that's our most educated sponsor. Yet I really felt pursued by them yesterday in my head and I was like, well, okay, how do we make this fit? And it's I thought it was appropriate. I thought it would fit because we are talking about, like the need to pay off debt. Sometimes you just feel a need to be debt free, regardless of what the math says on some things. And

I say that that because that's where we were. Granted, we didn't know a lot about other financial things when we were paying off debt, but regardless of if maybe we could have made a little more in the stock market or bought a house earlier or whatever, getting out of debt was a life improving thing that we did. So if you're doing something that improves your life, you're not doing it wrong. You're not living life wrong just because you're not living in accordance with what somebody else

thinks you should, and vice versa. If you are maybe focusing a little more on investing than paying off debt. Do You're not doing life wrong if you're improving. So that's the mindset I want us to taken today's episode. Good word, Jen. Yes, once we have food, shelter, and water, some of how we approach our other needs and wants are going to be different, and there's freedom for that as long as we're being intentional with it and thoughtful

about what's going to be best for you. Absolutely, So a little current events for us, and this we don't typically talk about current events because we want these episodes to be pretty evergreen. But right now, the federal student loan payment pause is slated to end September one, that could be extended through the end of it, could even be extended to March of So we don't know when federal student loan payments are coming back, but we can

guarantee with certainty that they are coming back. They will not stay asleep there ever. Yeah, we do not hibernate forever. That is so wise, Jill, That is so wise. Um. And we are also unsure about student loan forgiveness. There are different amounts everywhere from zero to fifty. I would say, do not absolutely count on fifty dollars of loan forgiveness, like don't do it, but like maybe you want to account for the possibility of maybe ten and loan forgiveness.

Maybe that's something you want to do. Um, that's not wrong to do, but it's also you know, you don't have to do that. You don't have to wait for the government to become debt free, even if they do end up forgiving loans. Um, you will miss nothing by paying off your debt and becoming debt free earlier. So with all of the uncertainty, let's just talk about some things that we do know that will kind of be standard.

And something else knew that we're doing is instead of doing like a top Well, I guess this was when when I've searched um, this was at the top of Google, but mostly because it's newsworthy and it's from go Banking Rates, but it's on It's on Yahoo Finance, and it says Mark Cuban says the best investment is paying off your debt. Is he right? Jill? What did you think when you saw this article? First? I thought Shark Tank because of Mark Cuban. I have to say, Barbara Carkrand is my

favorite shark, but it's neither here nor there. Yeah, I like Rob. I'm blanking on his last name. It's it's a complicated one, but he's kind. He's so kind. Anyhow, I think it's a helpful one because there is there is this argument and perspective out there. Why would I focus my energies on paying down debt when I could put that money into the stock market, I could invest

sit and get potentially a higher rate of return. Of course we'll talk about that because it does depend on the interest rates, so it's not necessarily the way my mind thinks. I am definitely more of a what's right in front of me, payoff debt, save money. But for those who are more investment minded, this is a really helpful look at why should I consider paying down debt with that other argument of what's the cost benefit analysis of if I were to put that money into an investment.

So one of the first things that they mentioned with this is that debt is like investing, but in reverse, the same principles are going to apply. Paying down debt as fast as possible is going to provide the most value in the long run. Again, that has to do

with interest rates. If your debt has a I don't know any type of interest rate right, the quicker you can pay it off, the less money you're gonna be paying towards interest and then freeing that up to be able to do what you want with it, similar to investing money will give you a return, and interest return. Yeah, I mean we know this. That's why we believe that we have to pay off our debt. I think nobody is like really happy. Most people are not just happy

with just having debts sit around. So yeah, I think it's important to look at the interest rate. That's why we say you especially have to get high interests at out of your life because you're essentially kind of losing sixteen percent and interest. That's the average credit card interest rate right now. Versus if you paid it off, you have an immediate gain. It's not compound interest like it

is in investing. But we always say that past returns are no indicator of future gains, and so you just us don't know what the market is going to be like long term, it trends upward, but sometimes you need those short term gains, and there's no better short term gain than getting rid of like credit card interest. The way it gets tricky is when your interest rates are closer to three or four percent, Like, then that's lower

than the stock market. And what do you do? And of course we're talking about if you actually do invest that money. So I just want to say this caveat here that I think sometimes people will utilize this as a reason for not going hard at paying down debt, to say, well, because I can make more money in investing it, then I can off of tying up my money paying down debt. And that's all that can only

be true if you are actually investing. I think sometimes people will stop there with that train of thought and they won't actually invest their money. So that also needs to be stated. You actually have to do something with it in order to actually like see that idea play out.

But yes, to focus on interest rates. Taking a look at what are the interest rates on your debt is usually expressed in a p R. So debt with a high a p R is almost always going to be better to pay down before you focus on any other financial priorities, investing, etcetera. That's the hierarchy of needs, right,

like focus on the big things first. Yeah, So, on the same topic of interest, let's talk about compounding and simple interest so that's another point that the article makes is that look at the type of interest your loan has. So if you have it's something like a credit card, Yeah, that interest does compound, so you're going to pay interest

on interest in the future. So that's another reason those high interest rates and compounding interest our reasons to really focus on getting that type of debt out of your life as quickly as possible. And interest like a mortgage, so that does not compound on itself. It's calculated at the onset and you can, yes, save money by paying it off early, but that doesn't mean it increases if you pay it off more slowly, if that makes sense.

So yeah, and uh, student loans, you can also pay interest on interest, and which is why student loans you know, blow up obviously not as their interest rates are lower, so it's not as fast as a credit card, but the amounts are higher so it feels like the same and so that's often one of the things you overlook is you just look at the interest rate of a student loan and you don't think as much about the compounding, but it really does give you if you're looking at

just the amount of interest you're paying every month like that could be very reasonable if you had a lower credit card balance within higher interest rate versus a higher student loan balance with a lower interest rate. You know, and I don't know what the exact numbers are to get there, but if you're looking at amounts, then those

could be comparable. And so something in marketing like marketers will use is we tend to gravitate towards sales with a higher percentage off Versus if something is maybe twenty off or forty off, we don't gravitate towards those as much, even if the percentage maybe more. So we all we we like to save in percentages, studies have shown versus amounts, and so that's why you very very rarely ever see a sale for you know, this amount off. Sales are

always in percentages. And we kind of think the same way about our debt. When our debt interest is lower, we focus on the higher interests instead of the actual dollar amount in interest that our separate debts are occurring for us monthly. Yeah, that's interesting, just even from a marketing perspective, the way they play their mind games. Yeah, and so there's a little bit of a twist with this article because it wasn't actually what Mark Cuban said,

like the best investment. He was referring to that first. Yeah, that's all right. Yeah, it was click baity and we clicked on it because Mark Cuban, But he was answering the question of what's the safest investment. So this links to knowing your risk tolerance. So, yes, investors, people in business and even working with large amounts of money may take calculated risks in the hopes that their investment returns

will outpace the cost of borrowing. But when it comes to personal finance, we generally want to take the safer route. And so the answer does remain the same that the safest investment for looking at risk tolerance is to err on the side of caution, which would say pay down debt first before you look into kind of straddling that

line of debt, payoff and investing. Yeah, I always say that focusing on one thing at a time is the most effective way to do anything, And yeah, you you can definitely do too at the same time, but one is always going to get your focus anyway, so you should. You might as well just prioritize it intentionally versus just letting whatever happens happen. So yeah, definitely stop straddling the line of anything and just picking something is a smart decision.

I also on this one like that he said don't forget taxes, and so I think sometimes in Florida we forget that other people pay a lot more taxes than we do. And so while some interest can be deducted from taxes, if you really need to bring down your tax liability for a year, you're going to find a lot more tax relief in contributions to a flour oh win K or traditional I r A. Then you would by putting extra money towards paying off debt um So

this is definitely a niche reason too. Maybe prioritize investing over paying off debt, but it is it's something you realize. I think for those of us who kind of just focused on paying off debt over in investing, you know, while we did that, sometimes we may not realize why other people might not do that, or why it might not be the best decision for somebody else. And knowing that sometimes these things are more complicated for people in

certain states or cities. Some cities you have a city tax, a state tax, and you're paying federal tax, that's where I came from. Yeah, p a gouge everywhere, so so sometimes in certain areas, um, it can be smarter to focus on investing if those higher interest compounding interest you know, loans are or cards are out of your life. We love to put a hard and fast rules on it, while we don't, a lot of people do and then

yell at others about it. But yes, I love your point there jen to say, look, there's more to consider here, and what's best for me is not always going to be best for other people. Like there are some general tenants that we can be aiming at, but we cannot assume that my decision in finances needs to be everybody else's decision. Yeah, I mean, and being educated can also help you in your argument why you've chosen what you

have chosen. So like for me, I have federal tax and that's it, and it's you know, it's not that high. So it was totally fine for me to forego the tax you know, benefits of a four oh one K when I was paying off debt. And if somebody else had told me, no, you should be lowering your taxes, I could have said, well, this is my tax liability and YadA YadA. You sound really smart talking about tax liability. And for me, I just moved to Florida, you know,

where they don't have a lot of taxes. Florida. Blessings anything else on this one for you, Jill, that's it. Thanks smart Cuban finance the safest investment, and he is right on that that is a guaranteed return, even if it's not the highest. But honestly, honestly, like we're out of the bull market that we were in for what nine years or something is the longest bull market history and technically, I guess we're in a bull market again,

but like it doesn't really count to me. And I know we're gonna get a one star review from something I've already said in this episode, so I'm sorry in advance. But like it's we're in a really good time that you could really do whatever you want on this subject. Focus on paying off dent, focus on investing, and as long as you're focusing on something like that's going to

be good for you. There's nothing economically where someone's like, oh, we're you know, you know, our economy is growing so fast, it's so strong, like you would be dumb not to invest. Nobody's gonna say that. So you really have the freedom right now to do what what makes you feel like good. And uh, this is a really strong time to do that. You really strong argument for doing either one freedom. How

appropriate after we celebrated the fourth of July. Yes, alright, So our next article is going to be specifically for student loans, and it's from Credible and it says, before paying off your student loans early, read this and it is just five questions or signs that paying off your student loan early makes sense or doesn't. What do you think of these? Joll great, they're short, sweet to the point. I think so many people can relate to this. Many many,

many have student loans. It's not just those in their early twenties, right, student loans are following us into our thirties and forties. So this is a helpful one to kind of way out. Again, it's not just a cut and dry answer. There are some situations where we might want to consider, let's get these ducks in a row before we go hard at this other thing. And so these are some of the things that they're telling us

to focus on. Yeah, and while the first article is kind of debating, like should you mathematically prioritized paying off debt early? Or this one's like these are hard and fast, like yes or no. So these are definitely and and I think we agreed with all of these. So yeah, the first one, the first question you should ask yourself is do you have an emergency fund? If yes, then paying off student loans early is a good idea. So

that's the first off the bat. I think the biggest question is like what size should your emergency fund be? And how long should you wait before you start paying off your loans. Somebody asked me the other day on Instagram. They're like, should I save a three to six month emergency fund even if it's going to take me a year before I can start paying off debt? And there were a few questions that I had for her. Well. The first was a suggestion to stop thinking about your

emergency fund in terms of months. The reason we say three to six months, and the article says it right here, is typically you want to have three to six months. The reason we say that is for if your industry volatile, if you could be laid off, if you could find yourself without employment abruptly, and nobody, I guess can see a layoff happening. So that's why we say three to six months of expenses because that's about the time it

would take you to find a new job. But it in reality, if you can't save that very quickly, then think about it in terms of actual emergencies. So look at your last year. How many quote unquote emergencies have

you had? What have they cost you? Look around you, is there anything any car repairs you're going to need, any home repairs, anything around you that might result in an emergency in the next year or six months, And so kind of taking those emergency costs into consideration and thinking, has anybody ever has been able to help me with my emergencies? Do I have a strong familial support system? Uh? Stuff like that. So take these things into consideration and

create an emergency fund based on that. So that's if your income is really low, because you shouldn't have to wait a year. You shouldn't have to save an emergency fund for a year before you start paying off debt. I mean, I can't say what a hardened ask number is, but definitely a year seems like a long time to save an emergency fund before you start paying off debt. H Yeah, and that's the before you start paying off debt, Like that you can keep working on building an emergency

fund while you're also making payments to debt. But yeah, if you're kind of talking like I want to have this first and then look at that, kind of look at what's a reasonable amount before you can get to a larger amount that you feel more comfortable with. And again, the reason for this is so that we don't go into further debt. That's the reason for an emergency fund ultimately, is that we are able to cash flow whatever the emergency is and not get ourselves deeper into the pit

of owing some other entity. So cushioning yourself for that is a good idea before you start paying your student loans early. And I think the one caveat I gave her the last question was like, do you feel comfortable with less than three to six months of expenses in your emergency fund? And if the answer is no, like I only feel I have this goal number and I will only feel safe if I have this number, then

it's a moot point. Then you save till you get to that number so you can feel safe, but don't or I guess, don't lie to yourself and think like, if this number is enough, then you'll start to think of something else you need, and the number just keeps going up and up and up. If you have a number that feels good and feels safe, and you will

save to save to it, it's a moot point. But if you feel like you could feel safe with less than three to six months it's just what you've been told you need to have, then maybe you don't need three to six months right now. You can save the amount that will keep you out of dipping into your credit cards and stuff for emergencies and just continue to, like bit by bit, build that up while you're paying off debth. The next question to ask yourself is do

you have a lot of credit card debt? So, again this is in comparison to paying down student loan debts. If you have a lot of credit card debt, then no, you should focus on the credit card debt before the student loan debt because on average, the credit card interest rate is about sixteen point nine seven percent versus your plus loans, your federally funded loans that are about between

like four point five to seven percent. So credit card loans are gouging you far more with interest rates, and so the frugal friends hierarchy of debt payoffs to focus on credit card debt first. Yeah, even if your student loans are private, those are still usually nine to thirteen.

So definitely focus on the credit cards first, and focus on the habits that got you into credit card debt or the life situations that got you into credit card debt, and kind of look at the root causes and see how can I get stable there and put my focus there before I start putting my focus on finances. So we want to get stable, we want to get strong habits. Um, we want to get healthy there so that we can

actually sustain paying off debt. Because if you're just looking at your cards and be like, okay, I'm going to pay off my debt, now, that's a hard like that's very difficult to sustain. But we want to look at the circumstances that got us there first and get healthy there and then try to pay off her debt. So number three, if your student loans have high interest rates, yes,

paying off your student loans early is a good idea. So, yeah, what I just said, private student loans are Obviously higher federal student loans can have rates as high as in half, so it's definitely if you have graduate loans or any private it definitely makes sense to pay those off early for sure. The next question, fourth question on here is do you contribute to your retirement and get the max

employer match. So, assuming that you're working in a place that offers a four oh one K and maybe even offers a match, you want to focus on doing that as well or beforehand, before you focus on paying off your debt early. So the answer is, if you're not doing that, then no, paying off your student loans early is not a good idea. And the argument here is while it might seem when we are in the place of insurmountable student loan debt, retirement is not something that

we're thinking about. But the amount of time that we can be putting money towards retirement and investing that is going to do far better for us in the future. The amount of time that we can be investing not not always the amount that we're investing. So time is on our side. If you're younger, and so you do want to focus on that. Look at contributing to the four oh one K, getting the match maxing out your wrath. I ra s that's a big important component to be

focusing on even while you have debt. Yeah, and I would say definitely the max employer match is the keyword

here because that's not a lot of money. And honestly, it just takes emailing HR and be like, hey, can you send me the link to sign up for the four oh one K if you weren't already auto enrolled, or then just getting the link to sign in and just saying yes, I want to get the max match, which is typically about three Because if you don't do that, you're essentially telling your employer you're turning down a three percent raise, is what it is. So you are entitled

to that money. And so don't tell your employer that you don't want more money from them, because I'm sure nobody can say that. Yeah, you can treat it like it's another bill. Yes, it'll get taken out of your paychecks, but you will thank yourself in the long run. And again there is another piece that doesn't have to take you away from paying down debt, But don't pay down

debt instead of doing these very minimal retirement investment things. Yeah, you can definitely invest beyond the match, But if you don't want to focus on investing while you pay off debt, that's totally fine, But still sign up. Get the employer match. Your employer owes it to you, and that's money that will just grow and grow and typically at a seven percent long term return, will double around every ten years. And so it's money that is just there for you

for the taking, So don't turn it down. Yeah, it's a benefit. Yeah. And so the last one is five, are you already contributing to other life goals? Um? And if the answer is yes, then yeah, you might as well pay off your student loans early. So they define the life goals is saving for a house, investing, and paying off higher interests set So if you've got one through four kind of figured out, then yeah, it's a

good idea to pay off your student loans. Some people will gladly have their student loans around and I think it can get really overwhelming if you are looking for diverse voices in personal finance, because every one will have a different opinion and that's great. You can find somebody who speaks to you in the language you feel good about. You know about debt or investing or um real estate or whatever whatever feels good to you. You can find

somebody who speaks wisely to that. It can also be really overwhelming if you're not sure what camp you're in yet. Just know that if you are looking to improve your life and your finances in whatever way you do that, as long as you're focusing on something, you're going the

right way. But I think there's these these really important tenants that we have, is like pay off the high interest debts credit cards and get the four oh one k match have the emergency fund, and if you have the basics on your hierarchy of financial needs, everything else. It's kind of semanti x. Yeah again, decide for yourself. But if you are in the camp of saying, yeah, there might be some other things to consider, then here

it is. This is the podcast episode for you. But if you're in a place where you're just saying, I don't really need to know all of the other arguments. I just don't like this burden and I just want to get all my debt gone, great, go for it. Yeah you do? You you know what else is us doing? Us? You really I didn't know where you were going to go with it. I'm glad you went there, but I'm happy to head somewhere else the week. That's right, it's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe

a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you've paid off your mortgage. Maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. That's bills, Buffalo bills, bill clean. This is the bill of the week. Hi, guys, this is Tasha in sunny St. Petersburg, Florida. What's up, neighbors, um And I am calling because I've been trying, you know, thinking about it all March and I've been waiting and it was coming, but you've been waiting. I wanted to make sure that that bill that is

coming through this week actually came through. Okay, here it does. I paid off my highest interests like credit cards, consolidated loan sixteen months early, and I am so excited. I'm yelling. My goal for New Year's was to have a paid off by the end of the year, so you know, one year, six months early. But no, it is down to zero and all right, sup, We're excited. Thanks guys. Love the show. Yeah, yeah, because I'm doing my lightning

rod sounds early. I'm so excited, Oh my gosh, and doing it in sunny St. Petersburg, and man, now you're going to be able to, like I don't know, invest in real estate in St. Petersburg, become a millionaire because that's what everyone's doing. So congratulations. And how fitting paying down that high interest loan early, that's what we're talking about, getting rid of it sixteen months early, accomplishing your goals even earlier than you had set for yourself. So many

great things here. Congrats. We're so proud of you. All right, and let's see our second bill of the week. Hi ladies, my name is Emily. I'm from Toledo. Hi. Oh, and I'm so excited to share this with you. My bill of the week is my rent bill, which is now four hundred and thirty five dollars a month. I'm a new listener, and your podcast helped me work up the courage to call my landlord and negotiate a twenty five dollar monthly discount in exchange for signing another year long lease.

You guys were my courage buddies, and because of you, I'm going to save three hundred dollars this year. So thank you, oh m from Tolito. Oh my gosh, three hundred dollars. We're so happy to like like be in your ear, by your side, giving you courage. That all that courage comes from you, girl. We're just telling you

you have it. Courage buddies. I love that term. And also I was expecting you to say, for negotiating and you're going to do an exchange of some lawn maintenance or something, but it was just for sign another year. It doesn't take any time or energy out of you over this next year. You just get a savings well done. And I hope that this inspires other people to do likewise and experience and discount for themselves. So Emily, glad to be your courage buddy. And you are, I know,

being a courage buddy to somebody else right now. Yeah, I mean, And you can negotiate with landlords. They landlords want really good tenants that keep up their property well. And if that's you and you want to give them more money for another year and keep them from having to look for a new tenant, take a chance on them, run background checks and all that stuff like, then they can help you out with rent a little bit, or at least not increase it if they're trying to increase it.

So definitely always ask. The worst they can do is saying no. But always ask and give a reason behind why you deserve what you're asking for. If you want to submit your bill of the week, visit Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash bill. Leave us a bill, whether it's about paying off debt, lowering bills. You know it a person named Bill. We're all ears and now it's time for the choo choo. Yes, So in today's lightning round, we are going to share what we would change about

our debt payoff. You go first, Gen, I'm curious what you have to say, and I bounced on that. Okay, Um, I would have so part of me thinks that I would have started maybe investing a little bit earlier. We ended our debt payoff in August, which gave us enough time to max out of rath iire for that year. Because you could go into the next year. You have until tax day to contribute to your WRATH. So we

were able to max out. But I think I may have done a little bit more in the year previous, but not doing that allowed us to be in a place where we could buy a home at the beginning of two thousand seventeen while we were paying off debt. So I'm really glad we did that. Yeah, maybe I would have just if I had known about rath Eyres, I would have opened one just a year earlier. Honestly, our debt payoff took two years, which is very reasonable, so I can't even really say I regret not investing.

But had I known about it, I definitely would have done a little even if it was just, you know, to fifty a month. So yeah, I would have done that. Yeah, that's good. It doesn't make a big difference in the grand scheme of things, honestly, So yeah, I think similarly, I in no way want to come across as though, oh everything happened perfectly for me. I generally don't have many regrets, I will say that, and maybe part of that is just like my ideology, you either learn from

things or you can build upon any of it. Ultimately, I'm glad that I was focused on paying off debt immediately after graduation, if not student or like it was on my radar, So ultimately I don't have massive regrets around it or things that I would change. I think maybe having made more money would have helped in the stress levels that existed of Okay, I really don't like this burden. I want it gone. But I also barely

make enough to kind of cover costs. Eric and I had a very very low income in our first years of marriage, and I've talked openly and candidly about that. But at the same time, I mean that that is part of our journey, and it's part of what allows us to have a focus on generosity because we know what it feels like and I don't know. Yeah, so it's so tough because if you take one thing, what what does that mean for what your journey would have been.

But I think as I look back, if I would have had more permission in myself to look for higher paying jobs, I think that would have helped me. I think I stayed a little stuck for a little bit too long thinking that's where I had to be, and it just wasn't. I'm okay, So I'm glad you said that, because that is very much a mindset, and I think I would like to amend mine by saying I wish I had believed I could pay off debt. Even though I was making a really small income when I was single.

I didn't believe that I could pay off the debt, and so I wish I would have just believed more and tried to start sooner and and even not maybe accomplished a lot, but just tried to start sooner because I did have money. But again, very negligible amount of time, just a few years that I waited after graduating UM before I'm met Travis. So but yeah, it's the mind I think the mindset I was in kept me stuck more than anything. So probably that was what I would

I wish only realized that. You know, in hindsight looking back that I felt stuck. I did get out of it. I'm not in that same place, but if there's any so, I think part of why we're saying this is to speak to those who might find themselves in that place of if you are a young working professional and you feel stuck, begin to look for options. You You don't

have to be stuck. It doesn't mean that you can immediately get out of that situation, but begin to believe what we're saying and in your own abilities and capacities to look for something different. If it's not feeling right, if you're not at peace about it, you don't have to stay in that place. Yeah, the sooner you start replacing the term I can't with, how can I, the faster and further you will get um, the sooner you

will get to wherever you want to go. I can vividly remember, and so I felt stuck in this one position. I was working at a residential facility for youth, and so much of what kept me there was my my desire to help these kids who were about to age out of the foster care system. So certainly there's a lot of empathy present there, and that's a lot of what kept me there. But I I can still remember this moment in my car where I was at the

end of my rope. I was in the parking lot about to leave work for the day, just at the end of myself, and just like crying out in the car, like like when can this end? Kind of a thing, like it just all felt like too much, emotionally, too much, financially too not enough, Like it all just like felt like such a burden. And and it just this flip switch,

like who's holding you back from doing something different? Who said you have to be here, you have to stay here, and all of a sudden, I just felt like this weight lifted, like, oh, I have permission, I don't. I don't have to stay here. This does not have to be the rest of my life. I still care immensely

for those students who were there. I mean, they're probably all like in their late twenties at this point, and my sites are still on foster care and wanting to help those in the system, particularly older children, so it can inform But anyhow, Yeah, I can still remember that moment of like, oh, there's permission, I don't have to

stay here. Yeah, Oh my gosh. Yes, Well that was an insightful lightning round that I hope inspired you to kind of challenge some of the things and some of the ways that you think about paying off debt and

making financial decisions. So thank you so much for listening. Um, we want to thank you for your kind reviews, and if you disagreed with anything in this episode, we hope that you won't leave us a one star review, but if something impacted you positively, we hope you will leave a pose stive review like t x Kane, who left a five star review called making Money Fun. Thank you for making frugal living fun. Listening is like hanging out with my two best buds who I might actually listen to.

Very helpful, short and sweet. I love it. Thanks t x Cane. We also want to thank our friends who share these episodes on social media, So when you share the latest episode and tag us on Facebook or Instagram, we add you to our monthly drawing. So for every five tags and reviews we get each month, we give away a copy of the Frugal Friends workbook. So keep leaving us reviews on iTunes or Stitcher and sending the

screenshot to Frugal Friends podcast at gmail dot com. Don't forget to tag us on social Remember it is still July, so you can opt to get a all access passed from the Future Fruit Summit. It is no longer for sale, so if you missed your chance, this is the way to get one. Thanks so much everyone, see you next week. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Syrian. When you were talking about mistakes and you're like, you either learn from things that happen or and I wanted so badly to say,

or you die, they're never mistakes. They're just opportunities for learning, or you die, or you couldn't ever learn it because you're not here anymore. You did so learn or die. But that's the morbid way of looking at it, which is why I didn't say it in the episode. Um it still is the episode you are still saying, you're still recording, Okay,