Paying Off Debt & Mental Health w/ Melanie Lockert

of the new year. Happy new year, Jill, Happy new year, Jen, bright future, Thank you, absolutely, And so we're going to start off with a really light topic like your mental health and how it coincides with paying off debt and the mental load and burden of debt. So how does that sound? Because it's real talk, Jim. May not be what we want, it is what we need and I think a lot of people will resonate with this. They do go hand in hand. I'm glad to see an

uptick of people talking about it. But it's helpful, it's useful if we're in the step payoff journey. This is exactly what we need at the start of Absolutely, Before we get into our interview with Melanie, who is an amazing advocate for mental health, especially in the financial space, let's hear a word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by the Frugal Friends Shop to help

you achieve your financial goals faster. This year, we are giving our listeners thirty dollars no minimum spend thirty dollars to use in the Frugal Friends Shop. So we have several challenge workbooks to help you with everything from budgeting and impulse spending to minimalism and your habits. So had to Frugal Friends dot shop to check out all those options and use the code new Year thirty for thirty dollars off at checkout. Also brought to you by curiosity.

It is said to be the culprit of the cats demise, but we say it's the birthplace of creativity and problem solving. Not sure what someone meant when they said you seem different. Practice curiosity. Wondering where that random dirt leads? Be curious, but in the daytime, confused about your own money, habits and patterns. Be curious. It may have killed the cat, but try it anyway. None of that sold that curiosity for me. Also, you said wonder where that random dirt leads?

It says dirt row. If you see some dirt just trailing off into the distance follow it. I don't know, random dang it. None of that sells curiosity for me. But you are not a cat, so you are already on the up when it comes to being curious. And if you are curious for a little bit more information about mental health and all of that, you're gonna get

a lot from our guest today, Melanie. But we also have episode one sixty nine is our frugal self care episode, and that was a really popular one, So if you want to cue that to play next, I think you'll also really like that. But you should also check out Melanie's podcast. She's the founder and author of the book Dear Debt, and through her blogging books, she chronicled her journey of paying off eighty one dollars of student loan debt as a single woman who is you know, who's

who's grappling with the weight of debt. So if that's ever sounded like you, she is a friend in that situation, and her book is definitely something you'll relate to. She also co founded the Lolo Retreat when people still met in person was this amazing like women and Money event, and then her show, The Mental Health and Wealth Show is a great collection of interviews about money and mental health. So yeah, we're very excited to share her with you. Yes,

let's get into it. Melanie, Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks much for having me. I'm super excited to chat with you, ladies. We're pleased to be having this conversation. As we said in the intro, there's there's definitely an uptick I think of people recognizing the correlation between finances and mental health, but there's still so much more room in this space to be talking

about it. And as you even mentioned in your own podcast, both of those are very stigmatized topics to be talking of out, both mental health and finances, and so we've just got a really lovely plen of talking about both of them. But it's everyone's experience, right, we are whole people, and so we're so thrilled for you to be talking about this in the new year and sharing your own story and hopefully making a pathway for others to feel more comfortable talking about it and just feel seen in

their journey. So that's my mouthful to say, thank you for being here. We're very pleased for this conversation. Thank you so much. Yeah, I mean these topics are affecting literally everyone right now, especially with the pandemic, and money and mental health are related to everyone, and we're all going through something, whether it's one way or the other,

or you know, at the intersection of both. Absolutely. So yeah, and you you paid off eighty one thousand dollars of debt and so you are acutely aware of the intersection of both. So tell me, like, what were your mental health struggles as it pertained to your debt, and like when did you start to notice the correlation between the two. Yeah,

just for some background for some people. So, I took out twenty three dollars for my bachelor's degree and fifty eight thousand for my masters from n y U. So I went to this fancy private school for my masters, which is where I took out the bulk of my debt. I paid the minimum for five years on my undergrad loan, and then I graduated from n y U and realized I still had sixty eight thousand dollars left despite making

payments for five years. And you know, I graduated in May eleven, So wow, I cannot believe that years the code now, But you know, I graduated man, and I had all this hope and all this farther and vigger, and I thought I was going to live this amazing New York life and be in the arts world. I have my master's Screen Performance Studies, which I know is a very um esoteric arts degree, but I originally wanted to be a professor, and that plan changed midway. I

realized academia is not for me. I feel like I'm not actually helping people. That as much as I love to scroll around the ideas, I'm not actually on the ground with people. And prior to that, I was working with inner city communities providing free arts programs, so I felt very much on the ground helping people. And so it was kind of like this big life shift took

on all this debt to make this dream happen. When I'm thirty, different job interviews in New York and got so close to the coveted full time job with benefits until I kept getting the same letter over and over again. We've gone with the other candidate. We've done with the other candidate. And to make a long story short, I ended up feeling like I couldn't afford to live in New York any longer and pay my student loans. So I moved to Portland, Oregon, which is where my then

partner was living. And so I thought, Okay, we'll stop doing long distance, I'll lower my cost of live and I'll be a big fish in a small pond. And things just ended up, you know, worse. There. The economy was much smaller. I could only find jobs making ten to twelve dollars an hour, and the first couple of months I was there, I was on food stamps, which is something that I never thought that I would do ever.

And so there's this kind of cognitive dissonance between what you think your life is going to look like after getting your masters from end, where are you and what

the reality of your life is. And so talking about the mental health issues, I think a lot of it is this idea that we have in our head of what our life will look like, what money and debt can buy us, the fancy degree, the fancy education, the connections, and then the reality the reality that I keep getting rejected, the reality that I'm only making ten to twelve dollars an hour, the reality that I'm now on food stamps. So this huge gap in expectations versus reality caused a

lot of my depression. I would say, you know, the rejection was not easy when it comes to jobs. Obviously moving across the coast again because I had moved from l A to New York, and then I had moved from New York to Portland, so you know, all of that happening in just a few years was also jarring. And having to rebuild my my network in Portland and starting over. And you know, I think with money and mental health and debt and depression, like for me, I

am very risk averse when it comes to debt. And I realized this just in the past few years that the reason I hated my debt and I was so you know, hell bent I'm getting out of debt quickly, is because I'm risk averse. I have friends who are like, I'm in debt, I don't care. I was like, I wish I was that person. I wish I did not care, but it is eating me up inside every day. And so I just realized that about me that I'm very risk averse when it comes to debt. I hate owing

someone money. I feel like, as long as I'm making money, but I owe someone money it is not mine. And something that I've realized is that a lot of the depression and mental health issues from debt come from this

feeling that you're paying for your past. You're paying for your past, you can't really pay for your present or your future, and so you kind of get stuck in this mindset of like, I'm paying for this decision that I don't even know is going to work out, that doesn't feel like it's working out, that feels like a mistake at this point, and you know, all of twelve, I was just super depressed and anxious about my dat I you know, sought low cost counseling at the local

community college and they had, you know, a graduate counseling program offering clinic hours for cheap for people like me who couldn't really afford it. And you know, it took pretty much all for me to just realize money is the problem, so I need to solve the money problem. And that's when I started my blog Dear Debt January, and I committed to paying off my debt because I said, if I can spend as much energy as I do crying, obsessing, being anxious about my debt, actually trying to have a

healthy outlet for this. Maybe I can actually pay off my debt and so that one change really change the trajectory of my whole entire life and obviously my relationship with debt and also mental health and money. Wow, Melanie, there's so much in here that feels really relatable, I think for myself, and I can imagine for our listeners, even if we don't have the exact same story, this

fantasy versus reality, things that we imagine for ourselves. Like what stands out to me from what you said is the fervor and the vigor, Like those two words that you said after graduating from n y U. How exciting. What a moment of high and achievement to have received your masters from a prestigious school, to then find yourself months a year later realizing, Oh, this isn't giving me what I thought that it would give me. I think that that is the story of many of us thinking

life would look a certain way and it doesn't. And yet you're still reminded of it because of the debt, and then reminded of what now you're perceiving to be a mistake. How did you navigate that just even mentally thinking that what I did. What I thought was a really good idea I'm now perceiving as a mistake. Like, how did you reconcile that? Well, first I'll tell you what I did, and you know, as a lesson of

what not to do. Um for probably that whole year, I just beat myself up again and again and again. It was just like, I'm so stupid and so stupid. I can't believe I quit my nonprofit job to go to to go to New York and to get into all this debt, and now I'm so broke. And I was just like on this hamster wheel in my mind, obsessing, beating myself up, and just I could not let it go. And it's like as if somehow beating myself up would

absolve the shame and guilt I was feeling. You know, I had this shame for not being able to find a full time job to pay back the debt. I had this guilt of going to this fancy private school. You know, as if you know, beating yourself up would actually do anything, but it actually just keeps you stuck. So don't do what I did. But that's what I did. For like I said, about a year, and then it was at the end of when I was just like, I've been doing this for a year, Like I literally

just can't go on like this. Something has to change and I don't know what that is, but I have to make some kind of movement. And that's when I discovered personal finance blogs. So, like a lot of people, I went to google how to pay off debt, and I found personal dance blogs and I read all of these entries of real people who had paid off debt. And I had never met anyone in my real life who had paid off debt, and so I thought, oh, my gosh, I don't know these people, but they've paid

off debt. Maybe I can too. And because I had read enough personal finance blogs, I thought I have a unique voice. My problem isn't that I overspent on credit card. This isn't that I'm gonna downsize my house or my cars. It's literally that I just paid too much for school and I'm going to try to get out of it.

And you know, my story from paying off student loan debt and being a minimalist and being a low income earner because and also talking about the relationship and mental health impact of debt, because I didn't see any of that around and I was like, this feels like the elephant in the room that let me talk about it. And so, you know, Dear Debt is really born out of writing Dear John letters or breakup letters to debt. So you know, dear Debt, I'm so over you, Dear Debt,

We're done. And it started as a personal project for just like I said, for me to have that creative outlet because it was eating me alive, to put it in a positive, you know spin, and then also invited others in the community to write their own breakup letters to debt. So it just expanded my view on debt and money and community and it provided so much for me. And it also was a great accountability tool because I

posted my debt repayment updates every month. I posted my side hustle adventures, the winds and the fails and all the wild things I was doing to earn more money. And yeah, so really channeling that changed everything for me. Yeah, Melanie, I like how you're describing what didn't work and what does work. That shame versus kindness to yourself. That shame is not actually a beneficial motivator. It's not going to

actually get us that far. We love to sit in that place, but we can become stuck there, but then finding actual creative outlets kindness to ourselves, especially over the things that we cannot change, Like what's done is done, but what do I have control over? I am curious to hear a bit more about this letter writing to debt. I think it's so creative. How did you even come

up with that idea? And then I know you talked a little bit, but I'd be curious to hear more on what impact did that make on your on your specific debt payoff? Yeah, So you know, like I said, I was reading all of these blogs about money and debt, and I loved all these stories, but it just felt like jet was this idea, this thing that you couldn't touch. And I was like, how can we make debts super relatable? And I was like, everyone has relationships, whether they're romantic

or friendships or familial otherwise. And I was like, I want to anthropomorphized debt into this person, this figurative being, and I want to break up with them every single day until I finally actually break up with this debt. And so, you know, I thought it was a fun way to kind of personify debt and continue to break

up with debt. And you know, because I have an arts background in theater and performance studies, I just thought this is like a fun creative way of creating some drama, emotion, tensions, and also to deal with these feelings that you know, writing a raw personal essay maybe I couldn't have done at that time, but putting it in letter format in this kind of creative sector made it more safe, if that makes sense, And so it really helped me in

my debt repayment journey kind of deal with those unresolved feelings that were holding me back. You know, I remember one of the Dear Debt letters I wrote close to my debt repayment. I was like, dear Debt, I don't know what my life looks like without you, like you've been with me throughout my whole twenties early thirties. I literally don't know what my life looks like without you,

and I'm scared. And I just remember how powerful that feeling was because we idealized this s dept Freedom, which it's amazing and I don't want to downplay that, but there was this fear of paying off my debt, like who am I without this debt? Who am I without this monthly payment? Like will I be able to stay out of debt? I hope? So I I hear so much of my story in your story, every every like thing you're saying, I can say like, oh my gosh, yes,

I've I felt that because like I too. It wasn't like the credit card in the overspending thing, like there was very little I could cut in my expenses. It was just I paid too much for school and in a profession that is not it's expensive to get a degree of masters in, but it's not known for being

very lucrative. And so there there came with all of this shame for making this decision, shin that seemed so dumb, but came from such like a genuinely good place, So there was there was no like I didn't know how to connect those two feelings, and I thought I deserved to beat myself up for you know, the time that I spent with the anxiety and the um with the shame,

Like I thought I deserved that for my decision. Like me thinking like with no college savings and no like real knowing how to do life, thinking that I had it all figured out, and then coming out of school, like realizing I didn't. I thought I just I deserved

everything I was giving myself. And so like this journey that you went on to like find that you are separate from your debt and then the feeling of like being so close to paying it off and realizing like now I've just placed my identity in this different thing, and like how am I going to get through like being without it? And that was a whole different thing to come to terms with. So like how did so how did you How is that like transition from having the debt to being debt free and how is your

mental health in that? Yeah, So, first of all, I just want to mention something that I've said for the past seven eight years, and people tend to quote me a lot, but it's something kind of related to what you're saying. But something that I say often is you are not alone. You are not alone. And I think that's really important because you know, we often think that we're so alone, or we conflate our self worth with our net worth, we think that we are our debt.

And that was the first money mindset transition I had to make, Like I am not my debt. I am not my money. Yes I'm broke now, Yes I'm on food stamps. Yes I'm making no money. Yes I my net worth isn't a negative. But that doesn't mean him a bad person. That doesn't mean that I left up my life forever. That doesn't mean that I'm worthless. It means that I did the best I could with the information I had at the time, and it didn't work out the way I thought, and I still ended up

prevailing because I need it work. And so I think that's a crucial money mindset issue that people need to address first. Because you are not alone, and you are not alone, and you know you are not your debt. I think that's really important. And kind of what you were saying, like, how was that transition? I mean, it was all of the emotions right. It was exciting, it was invigorating, it was terrifying, it was overwhelming. I mean, you know a lot of people asked me how did

you pay off debt? And kind of what you were alluding to earlier, not having much to cut back on. I was a frugal minimalist, so I was like, uh, within like a month, I cut back on everything, So what do I need to do now? I was like, Okay, the option is literally to earn more money, Like that's the only option here, because I hit the frugality plateau really quickly, and so I side hustled all the time. My blog was leveraged into a freelance writing career, which

I still do to this day. And so you know, I was able to double my income from thirty thousand to sixty thousand when I did eventually find a nonprofit job two years after graduation. And so it was you know, side hustling and self employment that really got me out of that low nonprofit not low nonprofit pay trap to pay off the debt. And also I kept my living expenses low while living in Portland. And just defin why, I think it's important to for people to know that

I did not like living in Portland. I thought it was too quiet, too white. Coming from l A, New York. I was like, ah, this is not my speed. But I chose to stay there until I paid off my debt because I knew that my options would be the world to be my oyster once I was debt free. So you know, there are sacrifices, but you know, becoming debt free. I had to face this whole identity shift of like, who am I going to be without my debt?

Because literally I signed them the Daughter of Line when I was seventeen from my first you know, student loans for undergrad My dad was like, here, I want to go to college finn this and uh, having to let go of this identity, and especially because I had created this blog Dear Debt around it, like I knew that that was going to change too, but I just realized that my life would open up and that I would be able to talk about so much more, which kind of led me to this women and money event I

found it called Low Liberatory and now now the podcast for Mental Health and Wealth Show. Like it's opened up so many different conversations and relationships in my life and everything that I had imagined that I would do while paying off my debt, I've done, Like I've moved back to Los Angeles because I did not like living in Portland. I got cats finally, which I you know, put off because I knew it was going to be an extra expense.

I took my mom to Italy. This was pre pandemic obviously, you know, so I did all of these things that I had dreamed of while I was paying off my debt. So you know, I just remember paying off my debt and seeing the balance at zero, and I was screaming and dancing and like crying all at the same time, and it just felt like a huge right was lifted off my shoulder because I didn't have to make any

payments anymore. And like I said, when you stop paying for the past, your whole future and your present just opens up so much, so powerful. I love the mindset shifts that are interwoven throughout your story. Here some of the ways that you change the narrative, which takes a good deal of intentionality and something with weight to it. Right, Just affirmations that feel like flattery are not going to

actually do anything for us. But when we can attach it to something that we can really believe, like what you're saying of I'm I am not alone, I am more than this. Here's the good qualities about me that I can attach to and utilize that to move forward. That's where you actually see the progress in it. I'm curious with this theme of mindset, what this has looked like for you since paying off your debt like, has your mindset about money changed as a result of becoming

debt free? Oh? Absolutely, So. I recently paid off my debt December. So I recently celebrated my sixth year debt free versary, which is wild. So I've been debt free for six years and it's just night and day my you know, mindset around money. I mean, when I was paying off my debt, I was very much in scarcity, mindset, very much in fear and anxiety. Like money was a

constant source of stress for me. Anytime I made a purchase, it was like it felt so hurtful, like did you make the right decision because I could have been going towards debt or I didn't enjoy money. That's just like the point blank of it. I just couldn't enjoy money. Now I can actually enjoy money, and you know, being debt free, I have been able to pay for my present and for my future, and so I actually have money and investments. I have money in retirement, I have

money and savings. I you know, have a credit card that I paid off in full every single month and use the rewards, and I can enjoy things like getting sushi out or paying for my cats that visit without worrying. Like two months ago, I paid eight hundred dollars for my cats that visits and vaccines, and I was just like when they sent me the bill, but I was like, Okay, I can pay this and it's not gonna like make

me destitute and that'll be fine. And if this was six eight years ago, oh my gosh, I would have been crying in a corner feeling like I can't pay for this, like I can't afford my cats treatment, and you know it just it's so much more freeing when you had that option just throw money at the problem. And I forget. There's this quote which I really wish I knew, sets I can't to this person. I've read this quote that says, if you have a problem that money can solve, you don't have a problem. Like just

throw money at money will solve it. You know. Obviously, if you don't have money to solve the problem, then you have a money problem. But if you have money that can solve the problem, we don't have a problem. Just throw money at it and like fix it, you know, And that kind of enjoyment of money, where Okay, this is a money problem, I'm just gonna throw money at the vet bill. I'm going to throw money at you know, getting take out because I'm too tired. I'm gonna throw

money at this or that. Like that is beautiful because then you can really see, oh, this is the real problem here. But then obviously, like my before life, I did have a lot of any problems, Like if I only had money, then it would solve that problem. And so now I have that, and so it's it's a lot more free. Yeah, it sounds like there's a combination here, And as with all of us, circumstances and perspective that sometimes are circumstances. When they change, it really does help

other aspects of our personhood. And sometimes it's perspective shifts. Usually it's a combination of both, and for you it was and probably for all of us too, First a perspective shift which enables us to make circumstantial shifts which then can lead to just over all greater well being. For you, now being debt free and having gone through some both perspective and circumstantial shifts, what have you seen

as it relates to your mental health? Like now now having different circumstances coming from a place of realizing there was depression present here. What are you seeing now? I'm not going to imagine that debt freedom is like the end all the y'all. So what happened? You don't struggle with anything now? Right's perfect free? That freedom is definitely not just like the magical in your life is you know, suddenly free of problems, Like you know, there's this same

new level, new devil. And I'm totally feeling that right now, like whatever new level you're at, there's going to be a new devil tonting you. And I think that's absolutely true because it's like, Okay, I'm debt free now, but now I'm aggressively trying to invest in save. I'm trying to build my self employment career and build my income

and my assets, and so that's been a different challenge. Um, I think to your point on the mental health issue, So you talk about this a lot in my podcast, The Mental Health and Wealth Show, as well as my book Your Debt. But I have clinical depression and anxiety and o c D. And I'm not ashamed to say that, but a lot of the debt related depression was situational based on my debt. So I just want to acknowledge.

There are two different, you know types of depression. One clinical you know, psychiatrist says you have this, I may or may not prescribe you meds, go to therapy, blah blah blah. Or you know, situational depression around a pandemic debt, you know, grieving a loved one. That's all normal too. So you know, I've had both. And so what's been interesting is, you know, paying off my debt, like I said,

solve the situational depression. But an interesting thing happened. It's like almost the clinical depression and anxiety just came creeping back, like, hey, remember I exist. I was overshadowed by the situational depression, but I'm here, and so you know, it's like all of these things that you might have just have lost perspective on in your life suddenly becomes the forefront. So, um, I mean, I've shared this before. This isn't exactly a secret, but I guess I haven't framed it in this way.

But um so I paid off my debt December ten, and like within that first year, I moved back to Los Angeles, I took my mom to Italy. I got cats. A year and a half later. That was all on my debt free dream list. But my relationship of nine years ended up completely imploding. Like a year and a half after paying off my debt, my mental health issues just went totally heywire. I had to get back on medication for the first time after a ten year hiatus. I was in therapy for like three and a half years.

So kind of, like I said, you have other life issues that might maybe you might have been neglecting, like you know, that might be in the background, but then suddenly you've solved this problem. Oh look at all these other problems that you've been collecting. So I went through a huge life shift, you know, a year and a half after paying off my debt, where just my whole

world completely change. You know, this person that I thought I would be with forever is now no longer my partner, you know, learning to live alone again, um, and also having that money to be able to do that. Like I stayed in the apartment, he did not I could afford to continue to stay there, like, you know, to deal with all of these life shifts. So obviously my life was not you know, perfect and a dream. Afterwards, it kind of got much worse after that, but then

now it's much better again. And you know, I was so happy that I had money to be able to deal with those problems because, like I said, if you

have money, then you don't have a problem. And I remember dealing with such grief about that relationship ending that I was just like kind of had this feeling like and it doesn't matter as much, which I won't say that's healthy, Like I think when you're deep and grief and you realize money can't buy certain things, like it can't make the relationship work, it can't bring a person back, it can't you know, you have a different perspective um. But I will say like I was overspending at that

time because I just didn't care. And that's like a different kind of bad money mindset behavior that you can fall into during times of deep depression and mental health. Which is why I'm so passionate about talking about mental health and money, because it's like your mental health state can affect how you manage your finances, your financial state can affect your mental health, and there are so many different situations at the intersection that just are so tied

together that we just don't talk about. Melanie Thank you so much for your vulnerability and sharing these different parts of your journey that hold pain. There are definitely the dirties and triumphs and joy and here, and there are low points and barriers and difficulties and grief and loss here too, and again just so relatable. I think what stands out to me and what you're describing here is, Yeah, circumstantial,

circumstantial shifts are helpful. Getting out of debt does have great freedoms to it, but it doesn't solve all of our problems. However, I will also say that I would imagine and I think some of your story is alluding to this. What you went through, the journey that you've been on, of writing letters to your debt, shifting your mind set, taking control of what you can take control of and letting go of what you can't, builds resilience in you and the ability to then face what comes next.

That there were still difficulties, you still wake up the same person that you were, so of the core aspects of it, right, some things have shifted, but something stick with us. And yet it still is not for nothing because of the strength and the resilience that that builds in you. Two then take on and tackle the next issue that arises, and the next issue that arises, all the while recognizing that you have set yourself up to handle it better and in a more beneficial way each

step of the journey. Yes, and I love that you mentioned the word resilient. I literally have a tattoo that says resilient on my wrist, So I thought that when my life was funny, It's like, that's a reminder for myself that I can see every day. So that's so funny that you mentioned that. But yeah, I totally agree, Like, you solve one problem that builds your strength and resilience, and then you can do so much better at whatever

life throws your way. Then, and you know, whether it's a money issue or not, you can totally like throw money the problem if you have that as a resource, and then you also just realize what's truly important that's not money related all either. Absolutely, And I hope for all of our listeners who are hearing this, who may be stuck in a cycle of fear, that's says it's easier to focus on this problem of debt than it

is to focus on other problems. So I'll stay in the cycle of debt because and and I'm sure that it's not even something like I can see myself doing something like this, not like like totally on purpose, but like saying like this is an easier problem to deal with and to feel anxiety about than the bigger problems

that maybe on the back burner. And so I hope if anybody is kind of is you know like me, and that that there's hearing like freedom and permission and hope that like you can build your resiliency to to you know, deal with with all of these problems and

come out stronger on the other side. Obviously, like Melanie as you have like this really like um like well known personal finance writer um with a really successful like in person and virtual retreat Like it's I mean, from where you were is so relatable and where you are now anybody could dream to be. So I just I hope people are putting the dots together to like know that that's a possibility for everyone. Yes, do you know what else holds hope and possibility and every bills resilience?

What that's right, It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died, and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. That's bill Buffalo Bills, Bill Clint. This is the bill of the week, Melanie. Every week we invite our listeners or our guests to share with us their bill of the week, and so we hope that you have one to share with our listeners today. Yeah.

So this is incredibly boring but meaningful for me. So I recently got my anthem bill for my health insurance for January one, and I happily paid it. It's like three d and fifteen dollars, not exactly cheap as a self employed person, but I'm so grateful that I can afford to pay that because while I was paying off my debt, there was about a year or two that I went without health insurance. This was pre Affordable Care

Act and penalties, so it was extremely scary. And so I just feel so grateful that, like I said, I can throw money at the problem. Yes, got the still covered. So that's my bill of the weeks, my health insurance bill. It's meaningful to me that I can pay it right now, and I'm happy to do it. So Yeah, that's amazing. Health insurance is so so so important and also so so so expensive, and it's it's heartbreaking, but um, that

is amazing that you're able to do that. This is such a common bill, which which I never thought when we created this segment, I never imagined this would be part of it. I'm so thrilled to see it. Of being pleased to pay for something, I think oftentimes in the frugal mindset, debt free mindset is how can I get as much as possible for as little as possible,

or free or not have to pay for things. And there's a place for some of that, but then the real freedom that comes from I don't mind paying for this. I'm willing to pay for this. I'm glad I can afford this, and the gratitude attached to that. It's it's

such a unique bill. I know you say boring, but I think it really does highlight and illuminate the benefits of being debt free that we can come to this point of it's not heart wrenching every time we shell out money for something, especially if it holds value and is helpful for us. So absolutely, Melanie, I'm just celebrating with you that you are pleased to pay for your health insurance, that you are able to afford your health insurance.

And it is not a heart wrenching experience. I mean, we're living in a pandemic right now, and so it's like I want to feel protected as much as possible. I don't want to worry if I have a little you know, scratch in my throat or have any other issues. And you know, also this pandemic has taught me that if you don't have your mental or physical health, you

really don't have anything. And to be honest, when I was hearing you talk, I was just getting like kind of triggered, not necessarily in a bad way, but it triggered a thought of like I mean, in America, you a lot of bankruptcies are because of medical debt, and that is one thing I'm terrified of, and I think probably a lot of Americans are. It's like, you have one kind of medical event and so many people can just be utterly messed up and in debt, and you know,

cause bankruptcy over that. And obviously, like I don't want that to happen, um, but it can still happen, you know, with insurance but obviously having that insurance can help mitigate the total cost. So it's also a kind of debt reduction strategy in that way of like, Okay, I don't

want to like file medical bankruptcy. Uh you know, hopefully that will never happen, but you know, you just I've done my research as a personal finance writer, and like, I think there's like six of bankruptcies or medical debt or something. Don't quote me in that, but if I remember correctly, I think it's something high like that, which I don't know either. It is high, it is a majority. Yeah, and and yeah, it's one of those things that we

can pay. We pay more upfront, but we save more in the long run if we do avoid one of these like big bankruptcy worthy like emergencies. And so that's I mean, really what frugality is about. It's not just a race to the bottom right now, but it's thinking long term. It's planning and having a holistic view of life and finances. And so we yeah, we love hearing

the bills that people happily pay. If you want to submit your bill of the week, if it's related to something that you don't mind paying, or a bill that you got out of paying visit Frugal Friends podcast dot com, slash bill, leave us your bill. We love to hear it. And now it's time for the lightning round. The lightning round, So today a in this is typically the time of the episode where we get vulnerable, but like we've just been vulnerable at the time, so like, why stop, now,

let's keep going up. We are gonna We're going to talk about a mental health struggle that we've each had around finances recently or in the past, and like how we overcame it if it has been overcome. So Melanie as our guest, we would love to have you go first. Yeah. I think a recent money mindset and mental health issue has just been learning to charge more and to ask

for more. You know, I've been a freelance writer now for seven years and my rates increased significantly in twe after kind of not doing so well in twenty twenty, and it had to deal with kind of this fear of asking for more or this like am I being greedy? And so you know that has affected my mental health because then it's like, oh my gosh, was I under charging and you know, under selling myself? And oh my good, and like the guilt from that and then am I

allowed to ask for this much? And so you know, I think for women in particular, asking for more can seem like you're greedy or like, you know, you should just be happy with what you get. But it's like, no, we need to be asking for more and we need to be negotiating and that needs to be normal and normalized. And so that's been kind of a recent money mental health issue that's been affecting me in my work and my money for the past year or so. Yeah, and

the negative self talk that can associate that. I mean, I just heard you say, like I've got guilt or I'm labeling myself as greedy potentially, and again that mindset and money going hand in hand, mental health and finances of certain things that we do or choose could lead us to think something about ourselves that is not actually beneficial but shifting it. And it's okay to have those thoughts.

It's like, am I being greedy? Okay, you can't stop yourself from asking that question, But then what do you do with that thought of No, actually, I am accurately assessing my experiences, my skill set, the value that I bring and asking more, and worst case scenario, people say no and we either choose to say, well then see you later, or all right, there's negotiation here. But yeah, those pieces that just aren't helpful for moving us forward,

like the negative self talk. Yeah. So so mine is very similar because I, I think, but instead of um, instead of like raising rates, I actually gave up freelance writing because I had other things going on. But like, I find a lot of my self worth in what I accomplish and when I get done and how much

money I make. And so this year, in order to live in the financial freedom that I've created for myself, I had to take a temporary I chose to take a temporary pay cut to let go of things that I did not want to do and do more of the things that I enjoy doing, which is a reason I paid off my debt and started working for myself

so that I could do that. But I wasn't letting myself do that because of the fear of having to do all of these things to make money to show that I was like accomplishing, you know, that I was accomplished, that I was successful. And so this year I let go of everything except for frugal friends, which is what I enjoy doing most. And it was definitely not making the most money. And just let go of my last

freelance writing clients. So I am financially fine. It's like I didn't need to be doing a million things to be making a ton of money, like and to to reach some kind of arbitrary savings goal or savings rate, you know, and it need to be doing that, and I so when I let it go, I have had It's been just so much less stress the last six

months of the years. I mean December, I was literally out the entire month either out of illness or five days of it was vacation, but the rest of it was illness, and I did not get behind because I just had my things that I was working on. And so it has it's been great, and it will lead to more money next year than I've probably ever made in any business ever before. But it was this like mindset, the thing of letting go of income. It was just

very hard to do. It's very hard with me. I tell you, it's good to be with you on the journey gen and see some of these shifts and the things that I think hold fear, but but not allowing that to be debilitating and still moving through it, like choosing it anyways, even though it's risk gy and it holds fear to it. But then the pieces that you're describing are helpful in that that you actually enjoy it and you've got people around you championing you. At least

I'm claiming that I champion you. I love you, Jill, tell us about yours. So for me, I'm going back in the archives not to say I don't still struggle with mental health, but this is what occurred to me first when you asked this question, Jim, when I was in the midst of debt and debt payoff, a version

of hopelessness. I can't describe myself as like entirely hopeless, but those things would surface at times, just this overall general feeling of down casteness inside myself about the pit that I felt that I was in, especially with the combo of debt and low income. For long time listeners,

you know this, but anyone new to the show. My degrees, both of them I undergrad and graduate to Grease, are in social work, so you can imagine the threshold of income that exists within that field, and so having debt for you know, going to school, having the loans that I took out, and then pairing that with income that was never going to ever get me out of it. Just it just felt really overwhelming and a little bit

debilitating and crushing. And so I think for me overcoming that it did have a lot to do with changing my circumstances. I think, feeling the weight and pressure of something, I'm not going to be able to get up out under it until I see that circumstance shift. And so for me, I think maintaining hope and determination was a really difficult part of that, Like, this feels debilitating, but

how do I keep moving forward? And so a lot of that did for me personally have to do with my faith that is like an anchoring component for me, and then support a around me community. My husband was super supportive through that time, finding friends like you, Jen and other friends who I felt really were trustworthy and believed in me, and having that support around me, whether or not it actually had to do with me talking

about my finances. There's those who are just care for me in the midst of whatever it is that I'm going through. And then of course changing circumstances, finding ways to be creative, implement what I believe I'm best at where my skill set is to actually, like you said, Melanie, increase income. Like that that came became the point where all right, this is this is all I'm making right now, this is my debt. I have cut out literally every single thing that can possibly cut out, So how can

I increase income? And so implementing that creativity calling upon my own skill set to find some of those solutions was really helpful, and I think finding fun ways to do it along the way I mentioned creativity for me that's paired with fun. My husband in and I like did side hustles that I thought were fun, and that was really helpful to be able to find some joy and laughter as I try and clawed my way out of that pit. I know you were you b y

O Bartenders. I thought that was my favorite side hustle. You we also were DJ dance it Out, honey. Yes, yes, that's awesome. Well, thank you so much Melanie for sharing your story. And I think this was a unique side of debt payoff that we don't get to dive into very much so in depth, and so I hope that we've given a lot of people hope in this episode, So thank you. Where can people find more from you? Yes, you can find me at Dear Debt, at Mental Health

and Wealth dot com, Lola Retreat dot com. You can check out my book Dear Debt on Amazon, also the Mental Health and Wealth Show and all podcast platforms. And you could find me on social media at Melanie Lockert. And thanks so much for having me to school. Fantastic. Oh so good to have you, Melanie. So many places to find you and engage with you. That's so exciting.

Thanks for being here. That was really good. I'm really glad that we got to devote an entire episode to these topics because I think I can't believe that I'm the only one who was listening to her talk and being like yes, yes, uh huh uh huh. It spoke to me on so many levels. I mean, we both love anytime we can weave in a conversation about our whole person and mental health. And you know, especially for me,

I'm so thrilled to be having these conversations. So and I think that she just gave such a relatable perspective but with some really tangible tools that we can all implement like just that idea. I know we highlighted it for her story, but I also want to highlight it as a resource for us all to write letters to the things that feel like barriers to us, to the things that feel like they're holding us back. I think we often can think, well, if I ignore it, that

that's going to be better. But in reality, when we can face something and name it and even talk to it, it takes out the mystery of it and the power that it holds over us. So whether that is writing a letter to our debt or writing a letter to whatever mental health concern we're facing right now, I think it could be absolutely appropriate to also write a letter to our shame, write a letter to our anxiety, write a letter to what any of these barriers that are

getting in the way. To personify it, it is actually again we didn't highlight this in the episode, but it's it is an actually therapeutic tool. I know it's utilized a lot in the addiction and recovery space. Write a letter to your addiction, write a letter too, and it can help us to not only um break up with it. Right if we want to, like write a breakup letter. But it can help us to understand ourselves more. It can help us to realize what is actually holding us back,

what is my interaction and relationship with this thing. So it creates an understanding, realizations, It creates a pathway forward. It names the thing, it normalizes the thing. It takes away the power and the mystery of the thing. So for so many reasons, I would encourage any one of us identify what's the biggest barrier right now, write a letter to it. Don't avoid it. That's not actually going

to solve the problem. So I love what she did there, and I think it's a really powerful component of her own de payoff story that weaves in our men total health. Absolutely, and it separates the debt from your personhood. So when you feel like you are part of your debt or debt is part of your identity, writing these letters can separate it from yourself. So yeah, thank you so much for listening. We want to thank you for listening, tuning

in and your kind reviews. The more you review us, well you can only view us review us once, but the more of you who review can help us share this podcast with more people, and so they two can find the tools and resources to solve the the guilt and the shame and the situational depression that comes from personal finances and money. So like this review right here just happens to be five stars from Ryan Egan Lyon, and he says, I love it. I do. Jen and

Jill's podcast is informative and fun. I can't say for sure how I found them in this overpacked, media hyped world, but I did. I listened in the morning while walking my dog, and I'm here to tell you I've never removed my headphones angry or sad. I'm far from well muscled financial person, so I appreciate their clarity, guest selection, and relevant episodes that matter to those of us surviving

this experiment in capitalism. I haven't only grown my financial literacy listening to these two, but I'm a better human too. How Yeah, he's in our Financial Freedom Mentorship, He's been a listener for a long time, and he does write great things. So we appreciate this, Ryan. The thing that stands out to me, Ryan is this never removing the headphones,

angry or sad, and it almost like that. I love it, But it also hit me that just the responsibility of that too, though, that there are so many times that I can relate to that I've listened to something and I might walk away, and not that I can't ever

promise that we won't do that to somebody. I mean, various things can make us angry or sad, but oh, I'm really glad to hear that that's true for you, Ryan, And it is not our goal to make people like sad, And absolutely I love that that's the case for you, all right. We also want to thank our friends who share these episodes on social media, So when you share the latest episode on Instagram, we're adding you to our

monthly drawing. Here's what it is. For every five tags and reviews we get each month, we're giving away fifty dollars for you to spend in the Frugal Friends shop. Who so keep leaving us reviews wherever you listen to podcasts and sending the screenshot to reviews at Frugal Friends podcast dot com, and don't forget to tag us on social when you share the latest episode. See you next week everyone. Bye. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric syrian

O jill Um. I have already word vomited on you about my December, but typically were we typically we record these episodes a month in advance, but f y, I, this is about ten days before this episode comes out. So this is probably as real time as you'll get us on the show because December has just been December.

I don't want to remember. Yeah, I've had a relatively front row seat to your December, and I can understand a bit of why you're saying that it has been a really rough one for you, and I'm so sad about that. I'm hoping for you January is better. Yeah. Is there a letter you can write after this? Is

that relevant for you? Okay? Dear December, Um, you were filled with so much illness, so much annoyance, um, but also some really good things, some great things for the podcasts future, a really like nice time away for Travis and eyes. So like, there are so many things I hate about you, but also so many things that I wouldn't trade for the world. And so as people, we are all this dichotomy of our our worst possible selves and our best possible selves. And December, I feel like

that's what you've given to me. You have you have given me life's worst and life's best, And I wasn't prepared for it all in one month, but I think it will in the future proof to have made me more resilient and so December by seeing ever, But thank you, love Jen or sincerely Jen, I love Chen. That was beautiful. I can't believe you were able to just do for anyone listening that was not written out like this is anyone's remaining till the end. That was off, the raw

and real. But you know what, Jen, I heard so much realization come out of that, like the holding the tension of the good and bad. And I think that's what this process can give to us, is really seeing it for what it is and giving us perspective that December feels like it really sucked, but then in looking at it, it took some of the mystery out of

it and you saw what's good too. Yeah. Yeah, so not wanting to repeat it, but yeah, just because there was good thing doesn't mean I want to hold onto it. I'm done with it, but I can recognize the good amidst the bad, and I do accept. I am angry about the bad stuff, but I'm ready to move on. Happy, happy, everyone, And I encourage you to write your own letters. How amazing and cathartic and beautiful, and yes, let us know, let us know what you're breaking up with, anything or

anyone you want. Yeah, let us and let us know what or who it is by December