Episode three point thirty two is episode one sixty four Money Motivation for Moms with Kat Collins.
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity and life. Here your hosts Jen and Jill.
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. My name is Jen, my name is Jill, and today we are replaying a episode that I personally very much liked and wanted to replay for all the moms that were not with us when this originally aired several years ago.
And by not with us, you mean just didn't hear it yet.
Not with not Frugal Friends listeners, or maybe not moms two years ago.
New moms, yes, old moms.
So this is from my friend Kat Collins previously Kat Alfred when we recorded the episode, but she wrote a book on money for Moms, and I felt so the interview was great, but I felt even more the end of the episode was really cathartic, really necessary, and received emails after the episode, specifically thanking us for the conversation we had at the end of the episode. So, if you are a new mom, you know a new mom, you want to be a mom, this is a really good episode to continue with.
But first, this episode is brought to you by bread. I will take it over dessert any day, especially if it's crunchy, flaky, soft warm. And for all you moms out there, go ahead just serve bread for dinner. No one's gonna complain about that. And if you need more bread inspo like how to make bread, save bread, or butter that bread, check out our friend Letter. We're in your inbox three times a week with freebies, tips to
save money, and ways to spend better. Get that bread for free aka no bread out of your pocket for this friend Little Letter. Frugal friendspodcast dot com slash friend Letter. I like bread.
We alternate weeks writing the friend Letter, and you can tell the weeks that Jill writes it. Lots of bread, lots of talk about.
Bread, hot dogs, butter. I mean, it's not just those things. So if you hate those things, still get the friend Letter because there's also free stuff. Everyone likes free.
Yes, but those are strong themes on Jill weeks O Frugal friendspodcast dot com slash friend Letter. But if you are looking for more female centric episodes to queue up, we've got three hundred and thirty one.
Of them because we are females talking.
Those are our females, and we know that most of our audience are females or female identifying, and we we love girl Power. But a couple of our episodes that might be more appropriate, maybe or more focused on that episode three seventeen when Women Have Money with Jeane Chatsky, episode two of three, how Maggie paid off her mortgage as a divorced single mom. That one great, especially if you're like a bread winning mom. That is a good one.
Brad, look at your tie in to Brad say, we can't talk about it.
Heyo.
Let's get into this episode with our friend Kat Collins. Kat, welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. We're so excited to have you here.
Wow, thank you so much for inviting me on to be here.
Kat.
I think that this is a message and a topic that so many people want to hear about. So we're really looking forward to hearing more of what's in your book and more of the behind the scenes about that. So thanks for coming on.
Sure, it's my pleasure.
Yeah.
So, first, I think it'd be an interesting story. Tell us how you got interested in personal finance.
Yeah, well I got into personal finance and sort of a backwards way. I actually went to school for history. I went to graduate school for history thinking I would be a curator, work in museums, do education, and I started a blog when I was super broke in my
graduate school program. I was making a twelve thousand dollars a year my teaching assistant Stipen, and so as a bit of a creative outlet to take a break from all the like really dense historical theory, I just started showing my fifth store fines and like the first apartment I ever had by myself, and all these different things, and it sort of blossomed. And then I started freelance
writing to supplement that twelve thousand dollars income. And I guess because I was writing about money, it served as a portfolio and that's like what I had to pitch to potential jobs. And it just sort of took off from there, and instead of working in museums, I ended up, you know, moving abroad or my husband went to school. Kept writing and by the time I came back to the States, I was making enough money to have it as my full time job.
You know.
Along the way, like people would assign the articles that I knew nothing about, Like, hey, could you write an article about mortgages? I really like how you write. And I never had a mortgage before my entire life, but because I was a historian, I knew how to research. I'd be like, totally, I can write about your mortgages. Totally, I can write about I mean I remember writing about IRA for the first time and having no idea what
that was. So over the course of like a decade of doing this, I learned a lot along the way, and now I do this full time.
Yeah, that's similar to how I learned a lot about personal finding grating.
That's what I can tell just reading right.
It is a lot of research and a lot of googling. I loved the story in your book where you were you were in was it the Caribbean, and you kind of had this backwards way of like some people will work and do a side hustle to try and leave their job, and you were there and You're like, well, there's no jobs for me, Yeah, so I'm just gonna have to like do it myself.
Yep.
I would just I mean, my husband, you know, was in his first two years of medical school down there and I used to just sit next to him. He'd study for hours and hours and the hours, and I just sat next to him and just kept pitching freelance writing jobs, like we had no money, and I see so excited. I'd be like, Oh, this one's going to pay me twelve dollars for a post. And I felt like a real writer, you know. But that's how it started, and it was just that hustle. I had no distractions,
nothing else to do, no malls. I just I just spent that whole first two years as a growth phase, and it led to what I do now.
Just getting thrown into the fire. I feel like I hear this so often from people. I didn't really know it, but I knew that I had the tools to figure it out. And I think that that applies to pretty much any field, especially with the amount of information we have available to us. It's okay if you don't feel like an expert immediately just start reading, start researching, watch videos, learn from others, and you can become the expert that you want to be. Amazing what we can pull out of your story.
Exactly, And you know, I mean, we all have these moments, like am I qualified to write? A money book, like should I, But I included the story. I included like how it came to be and that I, you know, actually have like lobal arts degrees to kind of show people that, Like if I started like that and ended up writing a money book, like you can learn this. You can you know, start from nothing and gather gather the knowledge enough to then teach others over time.
Absolutely.
Yeah, So let's talk about your book, Kat, Why did you see a need for a personal finance book specifically geared towards moms. Can you talk about that a bit?
Well, you know, there's a lot of advice geared towards moms, but I felt like it wasn't high level enough. Like I would read all these articles, and I'd read other people's blog posts and be like, hey, moms, here are some ways to save money. And it'd be like, so when you go to the grocery store, you know, write your lists and do this and don't forget your coupon book.
And you know, I felt like, of course, moms like can figure that out on their own, but I was missing the language that would speak to moms as if they were like highly intelligent powerhouses, totally capable of more complex money decisions than just going to the grocery store.
And so I just wanted to, you, you know, bring that to the market because I wanted to show moms that they were capable of kind of taking a leadership position when it came to money, and that even if they knew nothing about it starting the book, that they were more than capable of getting there.
Yeah, I just feel empowered. You talk like this, Queen.
So many moms, like stay at home moms, homeschooling, whatever, they're college educated, they're smart. It's like we have this stereotype places that like like moms, especially stay home moms, just went to college to get a husband, and that's absolutely not true. They're highly educated and choose, they've made their own life choices right right, But they haven't like they haven't lost themselves.
Like their brains are still in there, you know, Bobby on some days, you know, taking care of kids, but still in there. And I mean I've always like away about high expectations of myself of others, and I even with my friends, you know, I'm like, you can do more, you can learn more, and I think all of us have the potential to really learn about this stuff.
I love what you said there, and I do think it's a bit of a controversial peace, but I'm going to go with it because once we explain it more, I think we get it. The do more you can do more. I think that that's initially a statement that's like, no, stop telling women that they need to do more. So we're telling moms that they need to do more. But I so agree with you in the sense of there
is more available to you. And I think that what we're talking about is one of the things that can lead to so much difficulty internally and possibly even externally for specifically moms who are trying to juggle so many things.
I mean, what's on everybody's plate is different, but a lot of times, especially where there is just this sexpect to raise children, there's all these other aspects of a woman's personhood that then get missed, that feel stifled, that lead to feeling stuck, that feel like I'm not operating to my fullest potential, and yet society is saying no, but this thing should fulfill you, So stop complaining and
just like do more in your home. And I think what you're describing here is there's more than just grocery shopping. You are capable of more, and there are outlets for more, and like helping people rise to that next level is beautiful and I think it allows those outlets that moms need to be able to feel their fullest self.
Right, this is about fulfillment. And this isn't about do more as in like let's add ten more things to your list. This is about you know, in those quiet moments during the day or in the evening, when you have the thought to yourself, like is this really all
this is? Is this all it's going to be? And you wonder if you're the only one that thinks like that, Like these are the moments that I'm like, you know, yeah, you went to college, you graduated with like seventy nine ten years ago, Like you can still pick up something new, you can still like enhance your life, Like it wasn't like this part of your life. You were a student and you learned and now you're in this motherhood hood part.
You know, you still have all your interests. And I think stay at home moms, working moms, I just think we all need to have something just for us. And you know, even if you're your day's ninety percent kids.
I still think you should have like a little ten percent of something just for you, because our kids aren't always going to be here under our roofs, you know, and when they leave, if that was all your life was wrapped up in them all the time, you're going to have this really empty feeling when they go and they go off to college, and so I try to keep pieces for me along the way so that there's you know, stuff to do when they go. Might are going at the same time.
So yes, you have twins for those who don't know, which yeah, so fun and so terrifying.
Yes, exactly.
I mean I so agree with you, and I think sometimes it can definitely make you feel a little guilty to try and keep that peace for yourself. And I know Jill like helps me with this all the time because I feel so much guilt for like, I think I should be able.
To do it all all the time.
And she's like, no, it's okay for Travis to watch Kai because he is he made half of him, you know, so like it's okay.
Baby watched.
She literally had to tell me that the other day. It's not babysitting when the father is watching.
We were cool and she's like, I abandoned my child. I was like, you need to get that language like out of your head and out of your mouth.
I wasn't saying it dramatically.
You are sitting by the side of the pool while your husband is with your son. You abandoned nobody.
Yeah, no, it's hard. I mean we placed a lot of pressure on ourselves. And you know, even if you have a really even distribution of labor in your house, some people have more than others. You know, moms still feel like the primary parent, default parents, and that's just kind of the way our culture and society has has evolved. And to even push back against it a little bit
just feels weird and feels wrong. But yeah, it's hard for me too, you know, it's hard for me to I just recently told my husband, you know, I'm going to be like a day at a hotel soon, you know, like it doesn't have to you know it, It can be five minutes away, but I think I need What I was hoping for was twenty four hours without having to like have the right answer to everything. You know, everybody's got a lot of feelings at this age seven, and you want to respond in a way that's like
healthy and like you want to validate it. I just don't want to validate anyone for like twenty four hours, you know.
So Yeah, but even feeling like.
Asking for it is hard, you know, saying that you need a minute or break or something. All of that's really challenging. I don't know why, because my husband just went to a conference in Chicago last weekend. He's like going to a conference, and I'm like, okay, no doubt.
It's like I don't know.
Different, Yeah, for sure.
So on the on the subject of like your kids, Yeah, how does like dealing with personal finances when you have multiple young children at home?
Like, how does that differ?
How can moms like do their personal finances like differently?
Yeah, I mean each additional kid, right, whether you have them one at a time or two at once. I mean, there's a lot of different things to consider. And one interesting thing that's come up is, especially with twins, you know,
you always try to treat them equally. Like I for a long time, I had them each in one activity and I was like, Okay, well tennis cost this much and ballet costs us much and they were like close and it felt you know, like I tried to, you know, I give them each the opportunity for the same allowance or you know, all these different things. They go to the same private school, and so you try really hard to be equal. But as they get older, different things
e merge. Right, one child might have like a medical issue, or one child might need additional therapy for some something else, and then it gets way skewed. So I think when you have multiple kids, I think it's good to try to at least even it out. But it's really hard to even it out money wise, financially, to spend equally on each kid. And yeah, my husband and I we have a budget meeting once a month. We kind of organize things. Budget meetings go way better than they did
when we got married eleven years ago. It's a lot smoother now, got a lot a lot of practice.
In Yeah, good work.
Yeah, And you know, even now, even now, like at a higher income, we still ask each other if we're going to spend something over fifty dollars that's like extra or outside. And we have like a little system now, but we talk about the kids and what to spend on them in summer camp and family vacations and all those things come up in our budget meetings, and the childcare thing. We're past that part now, but that was a big discussion too, especially for moms adding a second kid,
that's a big thing. Oh am, I going to wait till this one's five and in school? Do I have them back to back? Do you know? All of these things are big money conversations that have to happen.
I love how you've paired, Yeah, the money conversation and how you have to take children into consideration. So this is Jill talking for those listening. I have no kids, and so even hearing you describe this, it's apparent to me how different it is to live for myself and my husband. What do they call that dink life? Double income no kids? Yeah, maybe double income with kids. Yeah,
I don't know if there's an acronym for that. Like, there is a big pivot that happens, and you are responsible for people, responsible for keeping them alive and then fed and a roof over their head, And especially if you're not dealing with a large income, there's definitely a lot of money decisions that need to be made and conversations and so this is absolutely a part of a mom's life. But just a person's life a person with kids.
So I love that you've paired the two and have made it approachable for Yeah, specifically moms who want to be empowered in this area.
What do you say, Like when I see a lot of parents putting trying to put like spending money on their kids is a priority over like investing money in themselves, so like they'll try and invest, they'll try and get their kid a car or invest in their college before they've invested in their own retirement or paid off their
own debt. And I can see how that would happen. Like, you want to give your child a better life, but when you sacrifice your own finances, you're actually not giving that child a better life.
They're going to have to take care of you, right.
What do you say to moms that like feel that way?
Yeah, you know I struggle with this too, Like even just in little ways, Like both of my kids' rooms are so cool. They like my son has a super cool bed. It's like a loft bed, like you know, they got all this cool stuff in there, and like our bed has like no headboard, like no, like you know, it's like I still have like the lamps I had like in colleges, like we don't like for us, it's something for them. You get the cool bed, you know,
And so I can see how that happens. You know, when you have kids, you place their knees above yours, and the littlest ways in the big ways, like you know, if there's one cookie left, I'm cutting it in half and giving it to each twitter. I'm not eating it myself.
Right, that's just.
Basic, basic stuff. So then we get some more complicated things and then eventually, right, the best gift we can give to our kids is to be stable and financially independent as we age. It's definitely challenging, right, and so I mean I would say, right intellectually, the best thing to do is to make sure that you're prioritizing your own retirement. And if you can't do that and paper
your kids college, then help your kids be responsible. But I know in practice parents are going to want to lean into helping their kids, and so especially we have young kids right now, this is something to think about, you know, this is something to look really hard at your income. Do I have an income problem versus a spending problem? Do I need to spend the next five to six years really focusing on my career, leaning hard. Do I need to switch jobs? What can I do?
Because to me, the answer isn't. I don't prefer oh, let's spend less or let's pick us over them. For me, my default is let's make more. What can we make? What can we earn? Like, what other business can we buy? What can we do? How can we optimize? Because to me, like, my solution is always earning more so that this is not a problem and I can take care of all
the things. And I think there's such a scarcity mindset and people are like, you know, I read something the other day like this mom said, oh, my husband and I are going to retire at seventy instead of sixty five so that we can pay for our kids to go to college. And to me, I'm like, my business brain is like, oh, but there's so many ways you could have closed that five year gap. But that's how
I think. So part of what I do is trying to encourage people to think a little bit bigger and again kind of recognize their own potential and kind of erase the idea of income cap or things like that. There's lots of ways to make money, so you can achieve all your financial goals and more.
I really appreciate the way that you're getting people to think bigger. It's not just about again the grocery shopping, but this challenge. It's like expanding my brain to consider it is a better gift to give to your kids that you're not going to be financially dependent on them in retirement versus college. If it comes down to that, it'd be great if we can figure out a way to have it all. But there's bigger questions that we should be asking rather than kind of just the daily minutia.
Now that being said, I could see people in different camps. Right, some moms choose to work for money. Sometimes some moms choose to just work and not get paid for all of the work that they do at home or whatever the situation is, Right, and you talk about this a little bit like the childcare versus career dilemma. I know
that this is this is another hot topic. Yeah, so we can certainly tread lightly, but please share your thoughts on this and kind of what you describe in the book regarding this concept.
Yeah, well, this, by far, this chapter was the hardest chapter to write because I am so pro moms, like I want moms to make the decision that's the best for them. And I just felt like I just wrote this chapter a million times and I had so many different people read it, like, am I coming across the right way? Am I coming across as supportive? Am I coming across like I value both options? Because for me,
I only work about thirty hours a week. I pick my kids up from school every day, So the whole time they've been born, I've been like half stay at home mom, half working mom, and so I kind of, like, you know, have a toe in both worlds. So I feel like I understand both worlds. My biggest thing in this chapter was to educate moms who want to stay home if they are working and then decide to stay
home that this is not a one number problem. So often moms say, well, daycare costs the same amount as my paycheck that I get, so I'm just going to stay home with my kids. But to me, I think much more broadly, and I think there are many more numbers you need to run. What does it look like when you step out of the workforce for five years, you lose your employer match. Are you the person that
has health insurance, you know for your family. Was there any other bonuses or a Christmas bonus you always use to buy gifts? And what raises would you have been eligible for in the next five to seven years. It's not just you today the paycheck you know, gets wiped out because of the daycare. It's you at sixty five wanting to retire those five prime five six prime years of investing time in your twenties or early thirties. What
would that amount have been, you know, in retirement. So and remember I left the workforce to start my business, so all my benefits come from me, my own health insurance, I put my own money into retirement. I have no employer match. I am the employer and the employee. So all of these things I thought about when I decided to leave the workforce. And I thought about my kids too,
So sometimes the emotional decisions are more important. But I just wanted bumps to run every number and to really think about it, because it would really suck to leave your job and to go home. Well, now you've lost your income, and now you feel broke, and you feel stressed. Now you have a new baby. Now I feel like you can't take them to the zoo or a museum because you feel broke and that's not fun either. So there's a lot more money considerations that go into it.
Yeah.
I think that as women and especially as moms, we may not realize how important it is to stay in the workforce and increase our incomes even with kids. Like Jill made this amazing revelation last night when we were hanging out and just like googling, we looked up this is what we do, this is what we do. Yeah, so we looked up the ten richest women in the world and the ten richest people, which spoil alert. The ten richest people are men, all of ten of them.
And like, so we looked at the women first, and the women, all ten of them had inherited wealth from their grandfather, father, or husband. And so Jill was like, there's no way the richest people in the world most of them had. It has to be generational. Like that just make made sense. And so when we looked at the men, zero out of ten inherited wealth. They have all built it in there.
In their lifetime, all men, and the amount of wealth that they had built in their lifetime was over double what the top ten richest women in the world.
All ten were higher than even the top one woman in the world. And we were even talking to Eric who's interviewing at his job, and like, the amount that women ask for is far less than what men ask for, even with comparable experience, And so there's there's a wealth gap and there's a wage gap, and I think we need to.
Get away confidence.
Yeah, we need to get away from this ask for what your worth mentality and just ask for more. Ask if you ask for more every year, as we're not.
Good at assessing what our worth is.
No, we are not good at that and just being like working for more and then asking for more or going someplace that will that will give it to you.
Yeah, you know. And I talk about this in the book, and you know, everyone's like, well, how much do you ask for? And like my answer to that is ask for a number that makes you highly uncomfortable. You should not feel good sending that email asking for whatever number. It should make you want to throw up because it feels like so wrong. Because again, we are fighting against massive forces, multi generations of cultural and societal pressures that tell us like where we fit into society as women
and mothers, and every time we ask for more. We want to please everybody. We are the caretakers. We want to be well liked. We want other people to think we're a good woman, we're a good wife, and like we're nice and we're generous and we're this, and ambitious women are often as an ambitious woman, I mean when I say things, sometimes people.
Don't like it.
You know, like I've been working on the internet a long time with a lot of trolls, right, so again, you know, I like to kind of push the bounds of this stuff, and yeah, you can't get what you don't ask for. Should they offer us the same?
Yeah?
Should they offer us more than men because we're like way better at multitasking and way better any stuff done. Yes, But people aren't asking us and they're not giving it, so like we have to push for it. And every time I've sent off like big proposals and stuff like, I'm like, oh, there's no way they're going to see to that. Or I can't believe I ask for that much. I ask for that much. You should not feel good.
It should feel bad. So we're so focused on feeling comfortable all the time and avoiding all conflict that we just stay in the safe zone. You got to push in order to make more.
I love what you said, like you miss one hundred percent of the shots you don't take. If you don't ask, you one hundred percent will not get it.
And you have to have an abundant enough mindset to be okay if you don't.
I think this message is so much for the person the mom who wants to stay in a career, wants to have an extra expression of personhood, keep some semblance of self. There are certainly moms out there who say, but I don't want to. I am so pleased to get out of the work that I was doing that was a burnout rate. And my husband can work or
my partner can work, and that's great. But I even think for those moms and parents, I think that this is even a challenging conversation to say, but is there anything that you want to keep your feet in some type of expression of self and yeah, paid or unpaid, or maybe it moves to paid. I mean, you're describing kat freelance writing while you were still holding down other
types of work. And so I think just expanding our mindset to say, if there's a part of you that says I do want more, This doesn't feel like everything that I envisioned my life to be with kids, then yes, go for it, get at it. If you are pleased with where your life is and you're staying at home, fantastic. Yeah, but I think just permission and freedom that these things are available to you.
And don't think that your kids can't be a part of it. Like a lot of my two closest friends here are both stay at home moms. One has a PhD in physics and one has a degree in math, and they're both like so happy being stay at home moms. My kids love going to their houses because they have like all the things and all the craft and I do all the special things. They come to me and
I'm like, old your laundry, let's go. They love going over there because they're like so great at all the stuff, right, But you know they get joy out of doing science experiments. Like again, my friend, you know she's like cancer research and all this stuff. Well, very happy being a stay at home mom. But she's like with my kids like in a creek showing them craw dads. So happy. Again.
These are her passions like flowing through and her making like basically like little teaching plans for the kids, not getting paid for it. But your passions can include your kids too. It's about like allowing yourself to pursue the things that you like and finding a way to incorporate it in your life. So there's just some variety to the day, you know, well, sad like, oh that was annose, just like, yeah, I made some variety.
Yeah, well, I mean, speaking of variety, I know exactly how we can add some variety to this show.
Okay, that's right.
It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is Williams. Maybe you paid off your mortgage. Maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. Dust bills, butffalo bills.
Bill Clinton.
This is the bill of the week.
So every every week we ask our listener or our guests to share with us their bill of the week.
Do you have one for us?
I do. I wouldn't have had one yesterday, but I have one today. As I shared earlier, we were recording this on my birthday, and so I want to share that my birthday gift this morning from my twins they each I'll show you on our video, they each gave me a one dollar bill for my.
Birth Oh my gosh, it is been a lot bag wrapped wrapped in a huge box that they designed with wrapping.
Paper that they colored all over and I found it hilarious. I also got a sparkly rock, but that doesn't fit with this the show. I thought it was hilarious. I mean to me, that was that was a big deal. You know. They really enjoyed their dollars and I got one from each of them, and that they decided together. So I have two bills today, two bills richer.
Wow, I mean wise, Yeah, that's in the top ten bills.
Wow.
It sounds like your kids know you well.
Yeah, money, You've trained them.
Wow.
Sometimes I think I overdo it a bit, you know.
I mean we talk about what we love, and I love money exactly we do money. I hope to get something like that from Kaiwan day.
You will, you totally will. Yeah. Actually, like in the beginning at the school year, their teacher asked them to bring three things that they love to like to help kids, you know, the other kids learn about them. And my son put a bunch of dollars in its bag and he's like, I love money. I love legos, I love money.
I love this.
I was like, what your first day of first grade? Maybe we should like hit it so hard, you know, hit everyone with it, like let's let's out of tennis ball instead.
You know.
It's like, yeah, I appreciate it, but I don't want your I don't want your teacher will thing. But it's good. Like I said, sometimes maybe I overdo it.
Someone someone in a in an internet comment was like, you should say you love the freedom of money. It's something that it brings, not that you love money. And I was like, I'm sorry, I love money. Like I'm a personal finance writer. I it would be weird if I didn't love money.
Yeah, I hat gonna hate.
I love legos and I love money. Out of the mouth of babes.
Yeah, they're funny. Like I said, it's hilarious, amazing.
Well, if you are listening and you want to submit your bill of the week, whether it's your twins bringing you dollar bills on your birthday or literally anything else, because that's quite remarkable and unique, does it. Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash Bill, leave us your bill.
And now it's time for the round.
Addition, some of those are just amazing.
On the shank you, I really think that that's why we are a top one hundred investing podcast.
Clearly it's the strength of sound effects.
So today's Lightning Round is a little different because we're on the topics of moms and Jill is not a mom, but you have so much wisdom to share with moms, I know, and you talk to moms all the time. Kat and I will be sharing a little bit of some postpartum or guilt induced thoughts that we have experienced,
maybe financially, maybe not. I think both of they are vaguely financially related, and then Jill will be giving us each a response in how she would respond to somebody with the same thoughts.
Because I'm not counseling you.
No Lightning round, this is the Lightning Round. But I think when I was reading your book Hat and you mentioned about like postpartum depression OCD, I'm like, it was not until I became a mom that I realized how
common it was. Like nobody talks about it when you're not a mom, and it's not until you've already gone through it and you're out of it that you realize, Oh my gosh, I went through that, and so I really my goal is to normalize this so much that we can almost laugh about it, like you're not crazy, like you're not unstable or in ad quit anyway. This is just like weird hormones. Yeah, so that is the purpose of this, not to make fun of ourselves, but
to normalize. Yes, important, So kat as our guest, give us anything.
Yeah, Well, I shared in my book, and you know, it took me a couple of years to get this book deal. And I think one of the reasons, you know, in hindsight, was that I needed a couple of years of space to tell the story. But yeah, my twins were premies. We moved when they were five weeks old, which was like right around when a forty week two date would have been. So they were tiny, little five pound babies. We moved them across the country, my husband
started his third year at medical school. It was basically like all of the all of the things, like the perfect storm of things. And I've never been a mom before, so I was having just horrific like unwanted thoughts, like terrifying thoughts about things happening to them, or like I'd be bathing them and my brain would be like just walk away, just walk out of the bathroom and just like see what happens. And I'd be like actively fighting against it. So it wasn't like what I imagine mother to be.
I wasn't like looking at, oh, my kids are cute splashing in the tub, or I was battling all of these thoughts and fighting against them, like I'm not doing that. I'm not walking out this room, but you feel so crazy. And I kept it all to myself, like because I thought, well, everybody stays having a kid is hard. I have two of them. I'm also by myself. My husband's working. I just became self employed. I guess this is just what everyone talks about, like, oh, sleep all the baby sleeps,
because it's really hard. I thought this was like how it was supposed to be. But I what I described in the book is the first time my husband like watch the kids. Like I felt like, Okay, I'm going to go right, I'm going to get my work back in order. I had taken like a six week self
imposed maternity leave. I'm like writing at a coffee shop and I start getting these all these unwonted thoughts, which now I know is like postpartum OCD, which you have no control over the things that just jump in your head. And so I'm like calling my husband and I'm crying in the Starbucks, like crying, and I'm like, I just got this horrible image of something happening to the kids, and he's like they're just bouncing and their bouncers, like
they're fine. And then he starts to asking me questions like well, how long have you been thinking about this, and I'm like, well, since they were born. I just it all just kind of like it just pours out. And he was immediately like, you know, cafany need some help, you know, and I'm going to find someone for you.
And he did. He he did a bunch of like research and found like the right person for me, and you know, got officially diagnosed with you know, PPD and post part of OCD and started talking to a therapist and all of these things, and it really helped at like No. B twelve in my system, Like I finally had like a whole like physical like the whole thing. And but I wish I would have done it sooner, you know, and you know Luckily my husband is a physician and you know, could immediately kind of jump in
there recognize things because no who knows it. You know, maybe other dads would be like, wow, it sounds like you need some rest.
Or you need this, and.
He was like, no, this is more we need to get you some help. And so yeah, I'm very grateful to him for that. He's really like kind and he listened to me like as if I was any one of his patients, and he took care of me, and I'm really glad that he did.
Wow.
Kat, thank you so much for your courage in saying this. I know that you are not alone, and there's so many people who are probably like, oh my goodness, me too, and there's words for this, and and yet it takes somebody brave enough to be able to say it that, Hey, this is actually what's happening. This is some of the reality where you've got other people feeling like they're in silos, isolated,
thinking I'm the only one. I must be crazy. And that's what happens when we're isolated, is we think that's just our experience and no one else feels this way. But thank you for saying it. Thank you for writing about it, and I think some might be listening, like
why is this on a financial personal finance podcast. Well, because we're whole people, and this comes into the equation of parenthood, motherhood, working, staying at home, dealing with financial decisions, Like all of these things intersect and converge and affect one another, and if one area is not aimed at well being, then it's going to affect all other areas. And so to be able to create space to say, listen, you're not crazy, there's nothing wrong with you. There's a
reason that this is happening. But we don't want to set up camp there. We don't want to forever live out of this place. And so I'm so thrilled to hear that your husband actually had his sights on let's bring help into place. For some this might be a you're fine, just get over it. It's like not the message that we want to be spreading necessarily, and sometimes that's what we speak to ourselves. But I think so much of what you were saying is reaching out for help.
Being able to say, listen, here's some of the dark thoughts that are happening. Just getting it out of our heads can help to take like the mystery and the legs out from under it, and it creates this space to then be able to respond to it. So anyhow, if I can pull anything out of what you've said to encourage other people, it certainly well, you're not crazy and this happened for a reason, and say it, speak
it out to a trusted person. There is no shame in getting some of that help like you described, so well done. Thank you glad that you got the help that you needed in that situation.
Than give me too.
And you know, every chapter my book starts with a personal story that tied a money lesson, and I shared that story in a chapter where I talked about the importance of vulnerability. And you know, mental health is just as taboo of a topic as money is, so in that chapter I talked a lot about sharing your money, like if you're having money trouble and even being vulnerable
and sharing your your money goals, your money wins. And the hard part about that is, like people might not have the reactions that you want and both the mental health thing or the money thing, and you might lose some people along the way who like can't handle things or have to set up boundaries. But that's kind of like why I shared that in a money book to kind of talk about the importance of vulnerability.
Yeah, I'm so glad you did.
Like when you were telling your story, I heard a lot of my story in it. Like when I had my son, I had no idea. I had this idea in my head of what it was should be like, but I had no idea like what it was going to be like in reality. Like I knew it was going to be hard, because people seem.
Warns are hard. But I thought postpartum.
Depression was just like feeling thoughts of like harming yourself or someone.
Else or something.
So I don't know if that would that would be depression, but just thoughts of harming yourself, which I did not have. So I just thought that I was being I was tired or overwhelmed. And it wasn't until like looking back and having like some space between me and that season that I realized, like I had post part of anxiety, and I like never got help for it because we
didn't My husband didn't know. I didn't know, like nobody around us had experienced it, or at least were if they had, they hadn't talked about experiencing it, and Facebook was not helpful. Like everyone is sharing more on Facebook about like their stories and stuff, but I think we see more of like the extreme stories, and mine was
just like very under the radar. I thought I would like I have a group, like a accountability group that I meet with every week, and I was like four weeks after Kai was born, I was like, I have to write a book because having kids and having more kids only gets harder, and so like, I have to write a book and self publish it now because it's just going to get harder and I need to be doing so much in my business because I took time off and all this and there, and all these kids
or all these my friends with like older kids are like, no, it doesn't get harder, It gets easier when they get older.
And I like just couldn't hear anybody like because I had all these thoughts in my head and so like, now that it's like calmed down, I really wish that I had just had people to be vulnerable with, because I can see how it's so easy to make financial decisions in those first six months that you could really regret later on, and it could be due to un diagnosed, you know, something postpartum, and so thankfully my mistake was
just trying to work too hard. But yeah, man, I just wish it was talked about more.
I think the thing that stands out to me in both of your stories is just the isolation piece, like the loneliness that can come especially in those initial stages of motherhood and thinking you have to do it alone, which I think is such a societal piece, and having those around you in your circle who aren't asking those questions. I think that's what's standing out to me the most.
Is even like Jen, like you do have people, but some of it is like your own permission to say these things, or your own kindness towards yourself, and so I think having people beforehand, kind of having your sights on this, and then go throughout motherhood having people in
your corner, trusted individuals. It might only be like one or two, maybe three if you're super lucky, but yeah, having a close community, like you said, Jen, that you can be vulnerable with, who you can invite into that place. I think that's one of the key components and protective factors of how you get through this because sometimes, like you said, you don't even know exactly what's going on inside of you. You just know I feel a little off,
but I don't even know how to describe it. So yeah, surrounding yourself with trusted people is such a huge component.
Yeah, well, Kat, thank you so much for coming on and sharing thoughts from your new book. Where can people get more from you?
Sure? Well, my book Mom's Got Money is available anywhere books are sold, and you can even request it from your local library if you'd like. And my website is Katherineolfor dot com. There's a free like Mom's Got Money starter pack they can download on my website which has some of the charts from the books and just some ways to get start if people are really at ground zero. I'm always on the ground. That's my preferred ID social media and I'm Katherine offered on the ground.
Awesome, and we'll have links to all those in our show notes. Thanks again for joining us.
Thank you Jenna, thanks for sharing your story too, and Joe for offering such kind advice. I love your voice is like so soothing and like can we try to get You're so calm and I really appreciate you guys having me on.
Thank you, Thank you for your time. Kat Ooh, that was a good The end of the episode and the vulnerability present is beautiful. But I think also just the ability to encourage one another talk openly within safety, to be heard and encouraged, I think it's a beautiful thing. Yeah, so glad for that.
When having my second, I actually thought about this conversation several times, and I was more intentional to take steps to see if I could kind of curb the experience nutritionally.
I know I couldn't.
You know. Sleep is whatever you're going to get, what you want, you're going to get. But movement and nutrition, I really focused on that stuff and it was a lot better. It was combined with caring less. I think I think I cared too much with my first.
I think all new moms do.
But then after you keep one alive, you're like, ah, I could do this.
I don't have to be perfect.
So that combined with I think maybe being more intentional with how it was fueling myself, I think made a big difference. But yeah, I definitely didn't expect so much from myself after this one. I still got a book deal right after, so I'm still writing a book after having a baby, which is something I said I'd never do again, but here I am.
Every time you say never, it ends up being always. So you just stay away from that word or keep showing it, use it to your favor. That's what I want to do.
I'm giving up on it.
We will never have a TV show.
I can't. I'm not gonna touch that one.
Thank you so much for listening. We love, love, love reading your kind reviews, and we especially love this one from Nancy Gay. It's titled Finally. They say, I'm so happy I found a frugal podcast that is more than make coffee at home or bring your lunch to work. So many things they suggest I have been doing for years, which totally endears them to me. But I have learned a lot from them as well. Their chemistry is great and they're really funny. I'll listen on my way to work.
Keep the frugal tips, we will, Nancy.
That's awesome. Yeah, so glad to have you. So glad that clearly our minds think like you've been doing a lot of this on your frugal journey, and we're just happy to collect new friends along the way. If you are listening and you're a new friend or an old friend, and you want to leave us some kind words to help us find other new friends. Know that this is maybe for them, and maybe some people can read those reviews and no, it's not for them. Whatever it is,
leave your kind words in a review. We're looking forward to reading them.
Yes, and we will see you next time.
Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirianni.
Got some olive bread in the fridge waiting for me for lunch.
Oh my gosh, that olive bread is so good.
Oh so good with bread or I'm sorry with butter or oil, bread with bread, bread with bread. I'll do bread on bread.
Bread?
Who was I with?
Oh?
Jack asked the other day. Jack's my four year old nephew. He asked for a hamburger without the meat. And we're like, so bread. He's like, yeah, but like bread on bread, no meat, Like okay, Like you just want the top piece of bread in the bottom piece of bread.
That's it.
I have served bread for dinner. Yes, for you, It was a joke. For me, it has been my life.
It's not totally. It's freedom and permission giving that sometimes we don't have the protein the veggie the other side, the dessert. Sometimes it's just bread and that's fine.
Yeah, I try to make sure there's a protein, fat, and carb on the plate at least when I get it to him. It doesn't always get all three, don't always get consumed, but I try to make sure that they're all there. But sometimes it's just bread. Sometimes it's just bread and that's okay. You know there's no protein or fat spread.
I mean, if it's bread with butter, there's some fat, or I'll do that.
See, I will, like ninety percent of the time, I'll slap some peanut butter on it because that's protein and fat. But sometimes I just he doesn't want it or I don't have the energy, and we won't. We'll pick our battles. We won't fight it.
There's some moms spiration for you there.
You go pick your battles.