Money Motivation For Moms w/ Cat Alford

celebrate the mothers. We're here for the we do. They're they're a part of that. They need to be a Yes, honestly, you've been a part of this. Yeah, they should probably be listening to this episode because we've already recorded it it prior to doing this intro. And it is good, Like we're not just talking about money and this one we're talking, as Jill likes to say, we are whole people. And so this is a whole person episode. Yes, all of the facets of who we are. And Cat just

bring such a great, relatable, approachable style and perspective. So I really think you're gonna like it. But first our

sponsors also brought to you by moms. Talking about moms today, we see you multitasking on everything, taking care of literally everyone, not flinching at any bodily fluid you may find on yourself or on your clothing, packing lunches, responding to emails, never ever being able to finish that cup of coffee you made for yourself, raising kids like a boss despite the pushback, screaming and insane decisions children make with their lives.

Thanks moms for all you do. Moms use code I am your mother for a reduction in Tantrum's Oh, I will use that code I've been looking for that. You may not have kids, Jill, but you are so wise when it comes to motherhood and how you deal with children. You are a sage that's so sweetly region I have. Most of my friends are are mothers, so I've got an up close and personal look at this life and i just want to support you all. I want you

to be kind to yourselves. You do it very well, and so I was so excited for your insight in this episode too. So without further ado, let's get in this interview with Katherine Alfred. She is an award winning blogger, writer, speaker. She has been in the personal finance game since two thousand ten, so she knows her stuff and she speaks on it. So relatedly, she doesn't have one of those finance degrees that has her speaking in jargon and speaking

like above you. She she's just like she's. She learned it as she went, she researched, and she portrays it. She relates it back very understandably. And so now she's a mom of twins, they're seven years old, and she is talking to moms specifically with her new book, Mom's Got Money, And I'm so excited for you to hear what's inside. Let's do it. Kat, Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. We're so excited to have you here. Wow,

thank you so much for inviting me up. I think that this is a message and a topic that so many people want to hear about. So we're really looking forward to hearing more of what what's in your book and more of the behind the scenes about that. So thanks for coming on. Sure, it's my pleasure. Yeah, So, first, I think it would be an interesting story. Tell us how you got interested in personal finance. Yeah, well, I add a personal finance and sort of a backwards way.

I actually went to school for history. I went to graduate school for history thinking I would be a curator working museums do education, and I started a blog when

I was super broke in my graduate school program. I was making a twelve thousand dollars a year my teaching assistant stipend, and so as a bit of a creative outlet to take a break from all the like really dense historical theory, I just started showing my fift store fines and like the first apartment I ever had by myself, and all these different things, and it's sort of blossomed.

And then I started freelance writing to supplement that twelve thousand dollar income, and I guess because I was writing about money, it served as a portfolio and that's like what I had to pitch to potential jobs. And it just sort of took off from there, and instead of working in museums, I ended up, um you know, moving abroad or my husband went to school. Kept writing, and by the time I came back to the States, I was making enough money to have it as my full

time job. You know. Along the way, like people would assign the articles that I knew nothing about, Like, hey, could you write an article about mortgages? I really like how you right? And I never had a mortgage before my entire life. But because I was a historian and knew how to research, I'd be like, totally, I can write about your mortgages. Totally, I can write about I mean I remember writing about roth Ira for the first

time and having no idea what that was. So over the course of like a decade of doing this, I learned a lot along the way, and um, now I do this full time. Yeah, that's similar to how I learned a lot about personal fighting crating. That's what I can tell. I'll just read a lot of research and a lot of googling. I loved the story in your book where you were you were in was it the Caribbean?

And you kind of have this backwards way like some people will work and do a side hustle to try and leave their job, and you were there and You're like, well, there's no jobs for me, so I'm just gonna have to like do it myself. Yeah, I would just I mean, my husband was in his first two years of medical school down there, and I used to just sit next

to him. He'd studied for hours and hours and hours, and I just sat that Stoman just kept pitching freelance writing jobs like we had no money, and I feel so excited. I'd be like, this one's gonna pay me twelve dollars for a post, and I felt like a real writer, you know. But that's how it started, and it was just that hustle. I had no distractions, nothing else to do, no malls. I just I just spent that whole first two years as a growth phase in it, and it led to what I do now, just getting

thrown into the fire. I feel like I hear this so often from people. I didn't really know it, but I knew that I had the tools to figure it out. And I think that that applies to pretty much any field, especially with the amount of information we have available to us. It's okay if you don't feel like an expert immediately just start reading, start researching, watch videos, learn from others, and you can become the expert that you want to be.

Amazing what we can pull out of your story exactly, And you know, I mean, we all have these moments like it's am I qualified to write a money book? Like should I, But I I included the story. I included like how it came to be and that I you know, actually I like liberal arts degrees to kind of show people that, like if I started like that and ended up writing a money book, like you can learn this. You can you know, start from nothing and gather gather the knowledge enough to then to each other's

over time. Absolutely. Yeah, so let's talk about your book, Cat, Why did you see a need for a personal finance book specifically geared towards moms. Can you talk about that a bit? Well, you know, there's a lot of advice geared towards moms, but I felt like it wasn't high level enough. Like I would read all these articles, and I'd read other people's blog posts and be like, hey, moms,

here are some ways to save money. And it'd be like, so when you go to the grocery store, you know, write your lists and do this and don't forget your coup on book. And you know, I felt like, of course mom's like configure that out on their own, but I was missing the language that would speak to moms as if they were like highly intelligent powerhouses, totally capable of more complex money decisions than just going to the

grocery store. And so I just wanted to, you know, bring that to the market because I wanted to show moms that they were capable of kind of taking a leadership position when it came to money and not even if they knew nothing about it starting the book, that they were more than capable of getting there. Yeah, I just feel like queen because so many, so many moms, like stay at home moms, homeschooling, whatever, their college educated,

they're smart. It's like we have this stereotype placens that like, like moms, especially stay at home moms just went to college to get a husband, and that's absolutely not true. They're highly educated and choose, they've made their own life choices right right, But they haven't like they haven't lost themselves. Like their brains are still in there, you know on some days, you know, taking care of kids, but still

in there. And I mean I've always like I'm always about high expectations of myself, of others, and I even with my friends, you know, I'm like, you can do more, you can learn more, and I think all of us have the potential to really learn about this stuff. I love what you said there, and I do think it's a bit of controversial peace, but I'm going to go with it because once we explain it more, I think, well, we get it to do more, you can do more.

I think that that's initially a statement that's like, no, stop telling me that they need to do more. So I'm telling moms that they need to do more. But I so agree with you in the sense of there is more available to you. And I think that what we're talking about is one of the things that can lead to so much difficulty internally and possibly even externally for specifically moms who are trying to juggle so many things.

I mean, what's on everybody's plate is different, but a lot of times, especially where there is just this expectation to raise children, there's all these other aspects of a woman's personhood that then get missed, that feels stifled, that lead to feeling stuck, that feel like I'm not operating to my fullest potential, and yet society is saying no, but this thing should fulfill you. So stop complaining and

just like do more in your home. And I think what you're describing here is there's more than just grocery shopping. You are capable of more, and there are outlets for more, and like helping people rise to that next level is beautiful and I think it allows those outlets that moms need to be able to feel their fullest self. Right, this is about fulfillment. And this isn't about do mores and like let's add ten more things to your list.

This is about you know, in those quiet moments during the day or in the evening when you have the thought to yourself, like is this really all this is? Is this all it's gonna be? And you wonder if you're the only one that thinks like that, Like these are the moments that I'm like, you know, yeah, you went to college, you graduated with years ago, Like you can still pick up something new, you can still like enhance your life. Like it wasn't like this part of

your life. You are a student and you learned and now you're in this motherhood hood part. You know, you still have all your interests and I I think, um, stay at home moms, working moms, I just think we

all need to have something just just for us. And you know, even if your your days kids, I still think you should have like a little ten percent of something just for you, because our kids aren't always going to be here under our roofs, you know, and when they leave, if that was all your life was wrapped up in them all the time, you're gonna have this really empty feeling when they go and they go off to college, and so I try to keep pieces for me along the way so that there's, you know, stuff

to do when they go, because I are going, my might are going at the same time. So, yes, you have twins for who don't know which is so fun and so terrifying. Three day, Yes exactly that. I mean, I so agree with you, and I think sometimes it can definitely make you feel a little guilty to try and keep that piece for yourself. And I know Jill like helps me with this all the time because I feel so much guilt for like I think I should

be able to do it all all the time. And she's like, no, it's okay for Travis to watch Kai because he is he made half of him, you know, so like it's okay, it's not baby. She literally had to tell me that the other day. It's not babysitting when the father is watching. We were cool, and she's like, I abandoned my child. I was like, you need to get that language like out of your head and out of your mouth. I wasn't saying it dramatically. Sitting by the side of the pool while your husband is with

your son, you abandoned nobody. Yeah, no, it's hard. I mean, we place a lot of pressure on ourselves. And you know, even if you have a really even distribution of labor in your house, some people have more than others. You know, moms still feel like the primary parent, default parents, and that's just kind of the way our culture and society has has evolved. And to even push back against it

a little bit just feels weird and feels wrong. But yeah, it's hard for me too, you know, it's hard for me to I just recently told my husband, you know, I'm gonna be like a day at a hotel soon. You know, Um, it doesn't have to you know, it doesn't. It could be five minutes away, but I think I need. What I was hoping for was twenty four hours without

having to like have the right answer to everything. You know, everybody's got a lot of feelings at this age seven, and you want to respond in a way that's like healthy, and like you want to validate it. I just don't want to validate anyone for like twenty four hours, you know. So it's but even feeling like asking for it is hard, you know, saying that you need a minute or break

or something. All of that's really challenging. I don't know why, because my husband just went to a conference in Chicago last weekend. He's like, don't on a conference, and I'm like, Okay, no guilt, you know. It's like I don't know. Different, Yeah, for sure. So on the on the subject of like your kids, how does like dealing with personal finances when you have multiple young children at home, Like, how does that differ? How can moms like do their personal finances

like differently? Yeah, I mean each additional kid, right, whether you have them one at a time or two at once. I mean, there's a lot of different things to consider. And and one interesting thing that's come up is, especially with twins, you know, you always try to treat them equally.

Like I for a long time, I had them each and one activity and I was like, okay, well tennis cost this much and ballet costs this much, and they were like close, and it felt you know, like I tried to, you know, I give them each the opportunity for the same allowance or you know, all these different things. They go to the same private school, and so you you try really hard to be equal. But as they

get older, different things emerge. Right, one child might have like a medical issue, or one child might need a dishal therapy for some something else, and then it gets way skewed. So I think when you have multiple kids, I think it's good to to try to at least even it out. But it's really hard to even it out money wise, financially, to spend equally on each kid. And yeah, my husband and I we have a budget

meeting once a month. We kind of organized things. Budget meetings go way better than they did when we got married eleven years ago. It's a lot smoother now. We got a lot of practices. Yeah, and you know even now, um, even even now, like at a higher income, we still ask each other if we're gonna spend something over fifty

dollars that's like extra or outside. And we have like a little system now, but we talk about the kids and what to spend on them, and summer camp and family vacations and all those things come up in our budget meetings, and the child care thing. We're we're past that part now, but that was a big discussion too, especially for moms adding a second kid, that's a big thing. Oh am, I gonna wait till this one's five and then school? Do I have them back to back? Do

you know? All of these things are big money conversations that have to happen. I love how you've paired, Yeah, the money conversation and how you have to take children into consideration. So this is Jill talking for those listening. I have no kids, and so even hearing you describe this, it's apparent to me how different it is to live for myself and my husband. What do they call that dink life? Double income kids? Maybe double income with kids.

I don't know if there's an acronym for that. Like, there is a big pivot that happens, and you are responsible for people. You're responsible for keeping them alive and then bed and a roof over their head. And especially if you're not dealing with a large income, there's definitely a lot of money decisions that need to be made and conversations and so this is absolutely a part of a mom's life. But just a person's life, a person

with kids. So I love that you've paired the two and have made it approachable for Yeah, specifically moms who want to be empowered in this area. Sure, what do you say, Like when I see a lot of parents putting, trying to put like spending money on their kids as a priority over like investing money in themselves, So like they'll try and invest we'll try and get their kids a car or invest in their college before they've invested in their own retirement or paid off their own debt. Like,

and I can see how that would happen. Like, you want to give your child a better life, but when you sacrifice your own finances, you're actually not giving that child a better life because they're gonna have to take care of you when you're right. What do you say

to moms that like feel that way? Yeah, you know, I struggle with this too, Like even just in little ways, Like both of my kid's rooms are so cool, Like my son has a super cool beds, like a lot bed, like you know, they got all this cool stuff and there like our bead has like no headboard, like no, like you know, it's like I still have like the lamps I had like in college, is like we don't like for us, it's something for them. You get the cool bit, you know, And so I can see how

that happens. You know, when you have kids, you place their needs above yours and the littlest ways in the big ways, Like you know, if there's one cookie left, I'm cutting it in half and giving it to each twit. I'm not eating it myself. Right, that's just basic, basic stuff. So then we get some more complicated things and then eventually, right, the best gift we can give to our kids is

to be stable and financially independent as we age. It's definitely challenging, right, and so I mean I would say, right intellectually, the best thing to do is to make sure that you're prioritizing your own retirement. And if you can't do that and paper your kids college, then help

your kids be responsible. But I know in practice parents are going to want to lean into helping their kids, and so especially we have young kids right now, this is something to think about, you know, this is something to look really hard at your income. Do I have an income problem versus a spending problem? Do I need to spend the next five to six years, really focusing on my career, leaning hard. Do I need to switch jobs? What can I do? Because to me, the answer isn't.

I don't prefer oh, let's spend less or let's pick us over them. For me, my default is let's make more. What can we make? What can we earn? Like, what business? What other business can we buy? What can we do? How can we optimize? Because to me, like my solution is always earning more so that this is not a problem and I can take care of all the things.

And I think there's such a scarcity of mindset and people are like, you know, I read something the other day like this mom said, oh, my husband and I are going to retire at seventy instead of sixty five so that we can pay for our kids to go to college. And to me, I'm like, my business brain is like, oh, but there's so many ways you could have closed that five year gap. But that's that's how

I think. So part of part of what I do is trying to incur its people to think a little bit bigger and again kind of recognize their own potential and kind of erase the idea of income cap or things like that. There's lots of ways to make money so you can achieve all your financial goals and more. I really appreciate the way that you're getting people to think bigger. It's not just about again the grocery shopping,

but this challenge. It's like expanding my brain to consider it is a better gift to give to your kids that you're not going to be financially dependent on them in retirement versus college if it comes down to that would be great if we can figure out a way to have it all. But there's bigger questions that we should be asking rather than kind of just the daily minutia. But that being said, I could see people in different camps. Right,

some moms choose to work for money. Sometimes some moms choose to just work and not get paid for all of the work that they do at home or whatever the situation is. And you talk about this a little bit like the child care versus career dilemma. I know that this is this is another hot topic, so we can certainly tread lightly, um, but please share your thoughts on this and kind of what you describe in the

book regarding this concept. Yeah, well, this, by far this chapter was the hardest chapter to write because I am so pro moms, like I want moms to make the decision that's the best for them, and I I just felt like I just wrote this chapter a million times and I had so many different people read it, like, am I coming across the right way? Am I coming across as supportive? Am I? Am I coming across like? I value both options? Because for me, I only work

about thirty hours a week. I picked my kids up from school every day, so the whole time they've been born, I've been like half stay at home mom, half working mom, and so I kind of, like, you know, have a toe in both worlds. So I feel like I understand both world My biggest thing in this chapter was to educate moms who want to stay home if they are working and then decide to stay home that this is

not a one number problem. So often moms say, well, daycare costs the same amount as my paycheck that I get, so I'm just gonna stay home with my kids. But to me, I think much more broadly, and I think there are many more numbers you need to run. What does it look like when you step out of the workforce for five years you lose your employer match. Are you Are you the person that has health insurance you know for your family? Was there any other bonuses or

a Christmas bonus you always used to buy gifts? And what raises would you have been eligible for in the next five to seven years. It's not just you today the paycheck you know, gets wiped out because of a daycare. It's you at sixty five wanting to retire those five prime five six prime years of investing time in your money is the early thirties, what would that amount have been, you know, in retirement. So I remember, I left the workforce to start my business, so all my benefits come

from me, my own health insurance. I put my own money into retirement. I have no employer match. I am the employer and the employee. So all of these things I thought about when I decided to leave the workforce. And I thought about my kids too, So sometimes the emotional decisions are more important. But I just wanted momps to run every number and to really think about it, because it would really suck to leave your job and to go home. Well, now you've lost your income and

now you feel broken, you feel stressed. Now you have a new baby. Now I feel like you can't take them to the zoo or a museum because you feel broke. And that's not fun either. So there's a lot more money considerations that go into it. Yeah. I think that as women, and especially as moms, we may not realize how important it is to stay in the workforce and

increase our in comes even with kids. Like Jill made this amazing revelation last night when we were hanging out and just like googling, we we looked up this is what we do, this is what we do. Yeah, so we looked up the ten richest women and in the world and the ten richest people, which spoil alert. The ten richest people are men, all of ten of them. And like, so we looked at the women first, and the women all ten of them had inherited wealth from

their grandfather, father, or husband. And so Jill was like, there's there's no way the richest people in the world most of them had. It has to be generational. Like that just made made sense. And so when we looked the men, zero out of ten inherited wealth. They have built it in their in their lifetime, all men, and the amount of wealth that they had built in their lifetime was over double what the top ten richest women in the world, All ten were higher than even the

top one woman in the world. And we were even talking to Eric who's interviewing at his job, and like, the amount that women ask for is far less than what men ask for, even with comparable experience. And so there's there's a wealth gap, and there's a wage gap.

And I think we need to get away confidence. Yeah, we need to get away from this ask for what you're worth mentality and just ask for more as if you ask for more every year, as we're not are worth is no, we are not good at that and just being like working for more and then asking for more or going someplace that will will give it to you, you know. And I talked about this in the book, and you know, everyone's like, well, how much do you ask for? And like my answer to that is ask

for a number that makes you highly uncomfortable. You should not feel good sending that email asking for whatever number. It should make you want to throw up because it feels like so wrong. Because again, we are fighting against massive forces, multi generations of cultural and societal pressures that tell us like where we fit into society as women and mothers, and every time we ask for more, we want to please everybody. We are the caretakers. We want

to be well liked. We want other people to think we're a good woman or a good wife, and like we're nice and we're generation and we're this, and ambitious women are often penalized as an ambitious woman. I mean when I say things sometimes people don't like, can't you know, like I've been working on the internet a long time with a lot of trolls, right, so again, you know, I like to kind of push the bounds of this stuff, and yeah, you can't get what you don't ask for.

Should they offer us the same? Yeah, shouldn't they offer us more than men because we're like way better at multitasking and way better any stuff done. Yes, but people aren't asking us and they're not giving it, so like we have to push for it. And every time I've sent off like big proposals and stuff, like I'm like, oh, there's no way they're gonna see to that, or I can't believe I asked for that much, And yeah, I asked for that much. You should not feel good, It

should feel bad. So we're so focused on feeling comfortable all the time and avoiding all conflict, that we just stay in the safe zone. You gotta push in order to make more. What you said, like, you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take, Like if you don't ask, you will not get it. And you have to have an abundant enough mindset to be okay if you don't. Mm hmmm. I think this message is so much for the person the mom who wants to stay in a career, wants to have an extra expression

of person hood, to keep some semblance of self. There are certainly moms out there who say, but I don't want to. I am so pleased to get out of the work that I was doing. That was a burnout, right, And my husband can work or my partner can work, and that's great. But I even think for those moms and parents, I think that this is even a challenging conversation to say, but is there anything that you want to keep your feet in some type of expression of self?

And yeah, paid or unpaid, or maybe it moves to paid. I mean, you're describing cat freelance writing while you were still holding down other types of work, and so I think just expanding our mindset to say, if there's a part of you that says, I do want more, this doesn't feel like everything that I envisioned my life to be with kids, then yes, go for it, get at it. If you are pleased with what your life is and

you're staying at home, fantastic. But I think just permission and freedom that these things are available to you, and don't think that your kids can't be a part of it. Like, um, a lot of my too closest friends here are both stay at home moms. One has a PhD in physics and one has a degree in math, and they're both like so happy being stay at home moms. My kids love going to their houses because they have like all the things and all the craft they do, all the

special things. They come to me and I'm like, older laundry, let's go. Like they love going over there because they're like so great at all the stuff, right, But you know they get joy out of doing science experiments. Like again, my friend, you know she's like cancer research and all this stuff. Well, very happy being a stay at home mom. But she's like with my kids like in a creek

showing them crawdads. So happy again. These are her passions like flowing through and her making like basically like little teaching plans for the kids, not getting paid for it. But your passions can include your kids too. It's about like allowing yourself to pursue the things that you like and finding a way to incorporate in your life. So there's just some variety to the day, you know, like, oh,

that was annoying, Like, yeah, I need some variety. Yeah, well, I mean, speaking of variety, I know exactly how we can add some variety to this show. Okay, we that's right. It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage. Maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. To build bills, Bill Clint, this is the bill of

the week. So every every week we ask our listener or our guests to share with us their bill of the week. Do you have one for us? I do. I wouldn't have had one yesterday, but I have one today. Um, as I shared earlier, we are recording this on my birthday, and so I want to share that my birthday gift this morning from my twins. They each I'll show you on our video. They each gave me a one dollar

bill for my birthday. Oh my gosh. It is a lot bad wrapped wrapped in a huge box that they designed with wrapping paper that they colored all over and I found it lars. I also got a sparkly rock, but that doesn't fit with this the show. Um, I thought it was hilarious. What's the best? I mean to me, that was that was a big deal. You know. They really enjoyed their dollars and I got one from each of them and that they decided together. So I have two bills today. Two bills. Wow, I mean yeah, that's

in the top ten bills. It sounds like your kids know you well, yea money, You've trained them well, how sometimes that they go over do it? Yeah, you know, I mean we talk about what we love, and you love money exactly you do money. I hope to get something like that from Kai one day. You will, you totally will. Yeah. Actually, like in the beginning of the school year, their teacher asked them to bring three things that they love to like to help kids, you know,

the other kids learn about them. And my son put a bunch of dollars in its bag and he's like, I love money, I love legos, I love money, and I love this. I was like, what the first day of first grade, Maybe we should like hit it so hard, you know, hit everyone with it, like like let's at a tennis ball instead. You know. It's like, yeah, I appreciate it, but I don't want your team, I don't want your teacher will thing. But it's good. Like I said,

sometimes maybe I over do it. Someone someone in a in an internet comment was like, you should say you love the freedom of money, freedom that it brings, not that you love money. And I was like, I'm sorry, I love money, Like I'm a personal finance writer. I it would be weird if I didn't love mine. Yeah, I hate it's gonna hate. I love legos and I love money. Out of the mouth of babes. Yeah, they're funny.

Like I said, this sage, it's hilarious, amazing. Well, if you are listening and you want to submit your bill of the week, whether it's your twins bringing you dollar bills on your birthday or literally anything else, because that's quite remarkable and unique. Visit for Girl Friends podcast dot com slash bill, leave us your bill, and now it's time for the round. Conditions are just amazing on the shank you. I really think that's why we are a

top one investing podcast sound Effects. So today's Lightning Round is a little different because we're on the topics of moms and Jill is not a mom, but you have so much wisdom to share with moms. I know you talked to moms all the time. Cat and I will be sharing a little bit of some postpartum or guilt induced thoughts that we have experienced, maybe financially, maybe not. I think both of them they're vaguely financially related, and then Jill will be giving us each a response how

you would respond to somebody with the same thoughts. Because I'm not counseling you the Lightning round. This is the Lightning Round. But I think when I was reading your book Hat and you mentioned about um like postpartum depression O c D, I'm like, it was not until I became a mom that I realized how common it was.

Like nobody talks about it when you're not a mom, and it's not until you've already gone through it and you're out of it that you realize, Oh my gosh, I went through that, and so I really my goal is to normalize this so much that we can almost laugh about it, like you're not crazy, Like you're not unstable or inadequate in any way. This is just like weird hormones. So that is the purpose of this, not to make fun of ourselves, but to normalize important. So

cat as our guest, give us anything. Yeah, well, I shared in my book, you know, and it took me a couple of years to get this book deal. And I think one of the reasons, you know, in hindsight, was that I needed a couple of years of space to tell the story. Um. But yeah, my my twins were premies removed um when they were five weeks old, which was like right around when a forty week due date would have been, so they were tiny, little five pound babies. We moved them across the country, and my

husband started his third year a medical school. It was basically like all of the all of the things, like the perfect storm of things. And I've never been a mom before, so I was having just horrific like unwanted thoughts, like terrifying thoughts about things happening to them, or like I'd be bathing them and my brain would be like just walk away, just walk out of the bathroom and just like see what happens, and I'd be like actively fighting against it. So it wasn't like what I imagined

mother to be. I wasn't like looking at, oh, my kids are cute splashing in the tub, or I was battling all of these thoughts and fighting against him like I'm not doing that. I'm not walking out this room, but you feel so crazy. And I kept it all to myself, like because I thought, well, everybody starts having a kid is hard. I have two of them. I'm also by myself. My husband's working. I just became self employed. I guess this is just what everyone talks about, like, oh,

sleep all the baby sleeps, because it's really hard. I thought this was like how it was supposed to be. But I what I described in the book is the first time my husband like watch the kids, Like I felt like, okay, I'm gonna go right, I'm gonna get my my work back in order. I had taken like a six week self imposed maternity leave. I'm like writing in a coffee shop and I start getting these all these unwanted thoughts, which now I know is like postpartum o c B, which you have no control over the

things that just jump in your head. And so I'm like calling my husband and I'm crying in the Starbucks, like crying, and I'm like, I just got this horrible image something happening to the kids. And he's like they're just bouncing in their bouncers like they're fine. And then he starts asking me questions like well, how long have you been thinking about this, and I'm like, well since they were born. I just it all just kind of

like it just pours out. And he would immediately like, you know, Kathy needs some help, you know, and I'm gonna find someone for you. And he did. He he did a bunch of research and found like the right person for me, and you know, got officially diagnosed with you know, pp D and post part of o c D and started talking to a therapist and all these things, and it really helped I, like no be twelve and my sister like I finally had like a whole like

physical like the whole thing. And but I wish I would have done it sooner, you know, And you know. Luckily my husband is a physician, and you know, could immediately kind of jump in there and recognize things because you know who knows. You know, maybe other dads would be like, wow, it sounds like you need some rest or you need this, and he was like, no, this is more we need to get you some help. And

so yeah, I'm very grateful to him for that. He he's really kind and he listened to me like as if I was any one of his patients, and he took care of me, and I'm really glad that he did. Wow, Kat, thank you so much for your courage in saying this. I know that you are not alone, and there's so many people who are probably like, oh my goodness, me too, and there's words for this, and and yet it takes somebody brave enough to be able to say it that, Hey,

this is actually what's happening. This is some of the reality where you've got other people feeling like they're in silos, isolated, thinking I'm the only one. I must be crazy. And that's what happens when we're isolated, is we think that's just our experience and no one else feels this way. But thank you for saying it, thank you for writing about it. And and I think some might be listening like,

why is this un a financial personal fine podcast? Well, because were whole people, and this comes into the equation of parenthood, motherhood, working, staying at home, dealing with financial decisions, Like all of these things intersect and converge and affect one another. And if one area is not aimed at well being, then it's going to affect all other areas. And so to be able to create space to say, listen, you're not crazy, there's nothing wrong with you. There's a

reason that this is happening. But we don't want to set up camp there. We don't want to forever live out of this place. And so I'm so thrilled to hear that your husband actually had his sights on let's bring help into place. For some this might be a you're fine, just get over it. It's like not the message that we want to be spreading necessarily, and sometimes that's what we speak to ourselves. But I think so much of what you were saying is reaching out for help.

Being able to say, listen, here's some of the dark thoughts that are happening. Just getting it out of our heads can help to take like the mystery and the legs out from under it, and it creates this space to then be able to respond to it. So anyhow, if I can pull anything out of what you've said to encourage other people, it's certainly, well, you're not crazy and this happened for a reason, and say it, speak

it out to a trusted person. There is no shame in getting some of that help like you described, so well done. Thank you glad that that you got the help that you needed in that situation. Give me too. And you know, every chapter in my book starts with a personal story that tied to a money lesson, and I shared that story in a chapter where I talked

about the importance of vulnerability. And you know, mental health is just as taboo of a topic as money is, so in that chapter I talked a lot about sharing your money, like if you're having money trouble or even being vulnerable, and sharing your of money goals, your money wins. And the hard part about that is like people might not have the reactions that you want the mental health thing or the money thing, and you might lose some people along the way who like can't handle things or

have to set up boundaries. But that's kind of like why I shared that in a money book to kind of talk about the importance of vulnerability. Yeah, I'm so glad you did. Like when you were telling your story, I heard a lot of my story in it. Like when I had my son, I had no idea. I had this idea in my head of what it was should be like, but I had no idea like what

it was going to be like in reality. Like I knew it was gonna be hard, because people say new words are hard, But I thought postpartum depression was just like feeling thoughts of like harming yourself or someone else or something. So I don't know if that would that would be depression, but just thoughts of harming yourself, which I did not have. So I just thought that I

was being I was tired or overwhelmed. And it wasn't until like looking back and having like some space between me and that season that I realized, like I had postpartum anxiety, and I like never got help for it because we didn't My husband didn't know. I didn't know like nobody around us had experienced it, or at least where if they had, they hadn't talked about experiencing it,

and Facebook was not helpful. Like everyone is sharing more on Facebook about like their stories and stuff, but I think we see more of like the extreme stories, and mine was just like very under the radar, like I

thought I would. Um, like I have a group, like a accountability group that I meet with every week, and I was like four weeks after Kai was born, I was like, I have to write a book because having kids and having more kids only gets harder, and so like I have to write a book and so I'll publish it now because it's just going to get harder and I need to be doing so much in my business because I took time off and all of this and there and all these kids are all these my

friends with older kids are like, no, it doesn't get harder,

it gets easier when they get older. And I like just couldn't hear anybody like because I had all these thoughts in my head and so like, now that it's like calmed down, I really wish that I had just had people to be vulnerable with, because I can see how it's so easy to make financial decisions in those for six months that you could really regret later on and it could be due to undiagnosed, you know, something postpartum, and so thankfully my mistake was just trying to work

too hard. But but yeah, man, I just wish it was talked about more. I think the thing that stands out to me in both of your stories is just the isolation piece, like the loneliness that can com especially in those initial stages of motherhood and thinking you have to do it alone, which I think is such a societal piece, and having those around you in your circle

who aren't asking those questions. I think that's what standing out to me the most is even like Jen, like you do have people, but some of it is like your own permission to say these things, or your own kindness towards yourself, and so I think having people beforehand, kind of having your sights on this, and then go

throughout motherhood having people in your corner, trusted individuals. It might only be like one or two, maybe three if you're super lucky, but yeah, having a close community, like you said, Jen, that you can be vulnerable with who you can invite into that place. I think that's one of the key components and protective factors of how you get through this because sometimes, like you said, you don't even know exactly what's going on inside of you. You just no, I feel a little off, but I don't

even know how to describe it. So yeah, surrounding yourself with trusted people is such a huge component. Yeah. Well, Kat, thank you so much for coming on and sharing thoughts from your new book. Where can people get more from you? Sure? Well, my book Mom's Got Money is available anywhere books are sold, and you can even request it from your local library if you'd like. And my website is Catherine Alford dot com.

There's a free like Mom's Got Money starter pack they can download on my website which has some of the charts from the books and just some ways to get started if people are really at ground zero. I'm always on the ground. That's my preferred social media and I'm Katherine's be offered on the ground awesome, and we'll have links to all those in our show notes. Thanks again for joining us, Thank you Jenn, and thanks for sharing your story too, and Joel for offering such kind advice.

I love your voices like so soothing and like can we try to get I really appreciate you guys having me on. Thank you thank you for your time. Cat, that was amazing, especially that little part in the end. We don't, I mean, that's not a normal thing where that's not going to be normal moving forward. It's so necessary and I think we need to hear in all the spaces the reality of what life is navigating parenting

and finances and all of these things converge. So yeah, and you know, I mean Cat even said it, it's one of the two top taboo things to talk about his mental health and finances, and those are the two fields I'm in. So you best believe we're going to be getting into some taboo topics because they need to be talked about if we're going to be aimed at

well being. Yeah, and I hope as if you are a mom listening to this, or you want to be a mom and you're listening to this, I hope that you feel connected in a way to other mothers because I mean, like our revelation that we were having last night, like there are no women in the top ten wealthiest women that have made that for themselves, and like there are definitely successful women, but I think we have too far to go when we compare ourselves to men to

be against each other. We have to support each other, we have to connect to each other because we will go faster alone but further together. And we have so far to go. And I just hope that this makes you feel motivated to do more, whether that's with money or with whatever is in your life that you're you're feeling and lack in, and that you can confide in your your girlfriends, your mom f and that we can close this gap together. Maybe not in our lifetime, but

our children's are their children's lifetime. There's so much we can accomplish in our lifetime, though, so let's do it. I know if you look at those top ten men, they all did that in their lifetime, so so enlightening. Anyways, thank you so much for listening and for your kind reviews on iTunes and Stitcher. I know there was a conversation in the Frugal Fronts community on Facebook about how hard it is to review on Stitcher, which is why

we don't read a lot from them. So if you're on Stitcher, google how to review us, because I can't tell you. I have an Apple, just like overworked Anna, who gave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and said love it. I work in healthcare and rarely have free time. I find myself walking a longer route or taking a bit longer just so I can listen to your podcast in between duties. I absolutely love the both of you and have learned so much and gave a ton of

useful info for your podcast. Definitely the highlight of my days. Thank you both and keep it coming. Thank you Anna for working in healthcare. Yes so much? What what an amazing powerhouse of a person. I'm sorry that you're feeling overworked. I hope you get some rest, but glad to hear you're taking the long route just to hear our voice. I know we can incorporate more rest in your life by just talking longer. We will. I enjoy the image of you walking down the corridors of a hospital listening

to our voices. Thanks for taking us with you into that setting. We also want to thank our friends who share these episodes on social media. So when you share the latest episode and tag us on Facebook or Instagram, we add you to our monthly drawing. What's our monthly drawing you? As for every five tags and reviews we get each month, we give away a copy of the Frugal Friends workbook written by yours truly, Jen, and so

keep leaving us those reviews on iTunes and stitchers. Send the screenshot to Frugal Friends podcast at gmail dot com. Don't forget to take us on social. We do see it, even if it's a little late, and see I see you next week. To be kind to yourself. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Sirian. So, I want to revisit when you were saying I was abandoning my child, because

I don't want people to think I'm over dramatic. I was saying I feel like I was trying to to to verbalize my feelings even though those feelings were unreasonable. So feeling like I abandoned my child by just watching him play with Travis in the pool, Yes, that wasn't reasonable, but sometimes you have unreasonable thoughts in your head. So I think I was trying to get that out and say out loud so that I could hear how unreasonable

it sounded. Yeah, I'm glad that you spoke it out loud because it helps to get it out of your head. But I'm still going to respond to you and say you're not abandoning your child. I'm going to help you. You are you are a voice of reason in my life. I do. I am vulnerable with you because you are a safe place. What's that phrase you use about vulnerability? Vulnerability without protection leads to exploitation. So yeah, you definitely have to find the right environments to be able to

speak those things. You are safe with me. Um. But yeah, when you use the word abandon, I'm definitely gonna pounce on that. Thank you, thank you, I deserve it. Thank you. Oh jim my message to mom's, Oh my gosh. If I could just encourage people to be kind to themselves, that just seems to be such a massive barrier. It's just permission for kindness, Like whatever you would say to other people. I love. When we hung out last night, you're saying all these things. You're like, and I know

exactly what you're gonna say, and you did. You said it. I'm like, oh my word, you know the voice. So then it's just a matter of applying it, that same kindness to yourself that you show to other people. So oh so I'm just gonna keep saying it over and over. It's so simple. But until it sticks, be kind to yourself. I need to hear it. Something you matter in this equation. So do your kids, and so do you.