Money And Life Lessons From A Hospice Doctor w/ Jordan Grumet

so now I get to return the favor. It's Jordan Grammitt, better known as Doc G, the host of the Urn and invest podcast, which is so fun. I've only been able to be on his podcast once, but Jen's a frequent flyer. She's on very often on his podcast, so I don't know why it took us so long. But also, he's got a new book coming out which is fun and really amazing perspective. He's both in the personal finance world but still has his feet in the medical world

as a hospice doctor. So really incredible blend of perspective here that we know you're gonna soak up. Yes, But first, this episode is brought to you by our Spending Symposium Audio flash sale. So you know, you may know that we had a summit last month that was super super successful. I am so sad if you missed it, I'm sad for you. But we have decided to do a flash

sale of just the audio recording. So this isn't the full bundle that we offered during the summit, but is just the audio recordings of our eighteen interviews that we it with some of our favorite personal finance experts on how you can control your spending and optimize it to build an intentional and full, wealthy life. So if that sounds good to you, then you get a head to Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash audio and you can check out all of the sessions that we have the

summit and get yours there. That's so exciting. It's basically like an extension of the podcast. If you've already binged all of us and you missed the Spending Symposium and now you want more, or you did listen, you didn't get the bundle, but I'm like, I need to hear it all hand. There it is slash sale. Yeah, if you didn't want to splurge for the whole bundle, but you do want access to the sessions. This is great

and it ends tonight. So if you're listening to this live on the day it comes out, no that it does end tonight. So yeah, let's get into this interview. I wanted to preface it was saying, sometimes we get emails from people that are not happy when we bring people onto the show that make how should I say a jill incomes that are higher than average? Yeah, and they instantly see, oh, this person had an income that was higher than average. I cannot relate to anything they

have to say. And we really intentionally bring people on here that have interesting stories, and it's not because and and never, no matter what their income is, the story doesn't have to do or isn't a product of the income. The point that we're trying to drive home is never because of the income. Any time that we have somebody on here that may make a higher income, they always have a messenger story that is outside of their income.

So like we wouldn't have somebody on like, oh I make three thousand dollars and I paid off a hundred thousand dollars of debt in six months, you understand why they paid They paid off that much money, and that like nobody has to nobody wants to hear tips from them on saving money. We get that we don't want to hear it either, and so I just I I love Jordan's story finding yourself outside of your profession, because our entire goal is not to help you save three dollars,

but to help you afford your dream life. And we fully believe that your dream life is not living on the beach in the Poconos three five days of the year like your your purpose Pokeos Do the Pokeonos have beaches? God, don't sy you? Well, I'm off the cuff, Okay, I've never been to the Poconos. It's not living on the beach all day or living in the mountains and perpetuity like, that's not the dream. The dream. If you unpack what you want and unpack it again and unpack it again,

you can afford your dream life. If not right now, then you can make it a plan to afford it. And you don't have to be a digital nomad. You don't have to be a millionaire or multimillionaire like you. You can live that life. And I think that Jordan's story and his book really exemplify that and have nothing to do with the fact that he's a doctor. Well, we don't want to give it all away, the whole story of what he's about to share. Just know that none of our stories are exactly the same as anybody

else's stories. Sometimes we can be motivated, sometimes we can be challenged, sometimes we can be encouraged. Sometimes we we receive empathy and compassion. So I don't even know where you'll find yourself in the midst of Jordan's story, but we are allowed out to cherry pick take what is valuable for you out of his story. Leave the rest. But please don't walk away just because he's a doctor and you might not be so much goodness in here. Thank you, thank you, and without further ado, here is

Jordan Grammitt. He is the author of Taking Stock, Hospice Doctors Advice on financial independence, building wealth, and living a regret free life. Those are do it Jordan's Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. We are happy to finally get you on this show. I am so happy to be here. Jen is a regular on my show, and what I always say is, this is Jen Smith from one of my favorite pie It was such an honor to be

here today on Frugal Friends. Well, thank you for gracing us with your present, and I know that this is gonna be just a very rich, beneficial time. I was already sharing with you, Jordan, after having been on your show and post recording, you shared some really helpful insight words of wisdom with me that have been pivotal in my own kind of thinking about next steps for myself personally. So I can only imagine what our audience is going

to receive from you and your story. So just to jump right in, you do have a background you in internal medicine. You still are a physician, so hence the doc G title on your podcast and how you're also known by Jordan and doc G. But I'm curious for you in your own journey, how did you discover the personal finance community? How did that end up crossing over from internal medicine to personal finance. We'll imagine that I had never thought about nor had any interest in personal finance.

My father was a doctor and oncologist, a cancer doctor, and he died suddenly when I was seven. He had a brain aneurism at birst. It was completely unexpected, and at that time I idolized my father. I wanted to be just like him, So that kind of grew in me, this idea that I would be a physician like him in a sense I would walk in his footsteps, and it really became a rich sense of identity for me. You know, as a little kid, I had a learning disability. I had a lot of trouble learning how to read.

So you think about this idea that I was struggling how to read. I was grades behind everyone else, and yet somewhere deep down inside, I identified with this fact that I'm going to become a doctor. I got over my learning disability. I went to high school, college, medical school, never thought twice about it. This is what I was

meant to do. And I had an episode while I was a second year resident, that's the medical training, and I was alone in the intensive care unit in the middle of the night taking care of some very sick patients, and one of the patients went into respiratory distress and died unexpectedly, and I gave the add news to the family. Remember I'm a second year residence, so I'm still pretty new to being a doctor. Family comes into two in the morning. I sent them down. I say sadly, your

family member died. They mourned a little bit, and then they left, and the next day I got phone calls from three separate women living in three separate states. Apparently the gentleman who died it was his new family that came in and he had three daughters who had no idea what happened, and I had to tell them over the phone that their loved one died. And it was horrendous. I mean, it was the worst thing I think I've

ever gone through in my life. And it was the beginning of the breaking of my relationship with medicine and the disconnection with that identity that had kind of carried me throughout all those earlier years. I went to practice medicine, and there was a lot that was really good in it, but I found myself weighed down by paperwork, weighed down by fears of mail practice, weighed down by feeling like I was trying to help patients that I couldn't help.

And I really got burned out and I started looking for a way out. And I have to admit, you know, I was born to a family where there was really good financial modeling, so my parents saved most of their money that they earned, they invested in real estate, they invested in the stock market. So I had all these great financial habits. I was building a path to financial independence, but I had no idea what it was. All I knew is I wanted to get out of medicine. I

was tired of practicing. I was tired of the late nights. But I didn't know how to escape. I asked my accountant, I asked my financial advisor when can I retire? And they didn't really give me great answers. It was always like, well, you're not quite there yet. And in two thousand and fourteen, I was writing a medical blog about what it felt like to be a doctor, and I got a phone call from this guy named Jim Dolly. He is the

writer of The White Coat Investor. He said, I just wrote a book and i'd love you to review it for your blog. He sent it to me. I read his book in one sitting, and within three hours I had epiphany, an epiphany one as I realized I was totally financially independent. I had enough money to stop working right there and then too. I felt like a weight

was taken off my shoulders. For all of a day and then I had a panic attack because all of a sudden I had to confront this idea that this thing medicine, this identity that I had worn like a cloak over myself for all those years, that wisp of connection I still had to my father, who died when I was seven. I now had to think about leaving that, and if I did that, who would I be and what would be meaningful to me? And what would be

my purpose in life? And that was the beginning of my deep dive into personal finance because I found it interesting. It was my deep dive into financial independence, and eventually this idea that I had to start working on a sense of meaning and purpose different from what I had thought it had been all those years. That's insane, I

I STU. I very much relate to the wanting to hold onto like your father, because my dad died when I was sixteen, and there is this and I think anybody like to some degree, has something they're still holding onto from childhood that's like part of their identity, and

that's not a bad thing. But coming to terms with that and and realizing like there is this whole part of me that I am ignoring or didn't realize I had because I have based so much of me on what I wanted as a child or what I missed out on as a child, or or etcetera, etcetera, which is is such a mind blowing experience when you come to that past in in your life, so like you and not everybody has you know, the financial wherewithal like

at that time to to really make a change. But like what, I I love that your journey to like be coming a hospice doctor, which is like a lot about what your book is about a small part of what I love about you too, because I my father had great experiences with hospice doctors. They were the actually throughout his illness, the best doctors part of the entire process. So I just had like such great respect to you. But like, what was that transition like from that epiphany

to figuring out okay, who? Like what's me now? Like what am I? Who am I? Now? Well? You know, it's interesting because the fiscal transition was instantaneous. I went from a guy who thought he didn't have enough to a guy who knew he had enough within seconds. The emotional awakening, however, was way less smooth. It was two thousand fourteen when I read this book, and I had

no idea what to do next. After that panic attack, I really pretty much became deeply depressed for a number of months, knowing that I wanted escape met sin, but not knowing how, and certainly not no knowing what I was going to escape too. So what I eventually did, as as opposed to throwing the baby out with the bathwater and just walking away from medicine, I did something different. I said, this is too big right now. So I

started studying personal finance. I started studying financial independence. I started eventually writing daily about what this means to me. But then I also took a look at my work and I said, okay, I now have the financial means. I'm not ready to walk away from this identity yet, but let's get rid of everything that doesn't seem to suit me. Let's get rid of all the friction in my work life. I call it the art of subtraction. I just started subtracting things out of my work life

because I had the financial means. So you know, I had my own practice, and I was getting calls all the time and running out to see patients at their homes on Sundays. I was like, I need to get rid of that. That's just too stressful. So I got rid of that. Then I was left with nursing homework and a by of what I call side hustles. Originally, when I started hospice work, it was kind of a side hustle, something to do on the side to make

a little extra money. I said, well, hold on to the nursing home in the hospice work, but Garrett everything else. The nursing homework eventually started exhausting me too. I was getting called a two in the morning, the patients were incredibly sick. I said, okay, well this is causing friction. Let's get rid of that. So I did full time hospice work for a while, and I'm like, I don't like doing full time hospice work. I don't like working

actually and having a boss. So I eventually became a consultant and did part time hospice work where I only work nine to five Monday through Friday and no nights, no weekends, and I pretty much have the power two agree with or reject anything that the company suggests. Right, So now I have the power to make decisions based

on what I think is important. But it was really an epiphany because as opposed to stepping away from that identity as a physician totally, what I realized through this art of substraction was that there was still something that I did identify with that really gave me a sense of purpose, which was doing this hospice work. And I knew that it was an important part of my sense of purpose because ultimately I realized that even if the company stopped paying me, I would probably still volunteer to

do this work. And that's how I knew that this was germane to my identity. But by getting rid of everything else, I also opened up a lot of time and space to start looking at some of those other things that were important to me, and so I had to do some of that internal work to decide, well, who are you when you're not being a doctor. What I eventually came to is, I'm a writer and a

podcaster and a public speaker. What I identify with as being a communicator, like I want to be the kind of person who generates these deep, important conversations that engage people and help them. And for the first time in my life, I could wear that identity so much more comfortably than the physician identity. I mean, I remember I went to medical school. I didn't have any really close friends.

In medical school. I would go to the doctors lounges as a resident attending physician, and I didn't feel like I fit in. Or I'd go to a party with my wife and I meet new people and I'd be ashamed to tell them what I did for a living. And it really hit me. It's like, why am I shameful about this? This is a really proud, important profession. And I came to the conclusion that that identity that I was wearing on my outside was not really matching

what I was feeling on the inside. And it took realizing that being a communicator, which is fit me so much better where I started feeling good about things. And then when I started to go to conferences and meet other writers, bloggers, and podcasters and public speakers, I felt a connection to them that I had never felt in the physician world. It was like, Oh, I found my people. And for the first time in my life, I realized what true connection felt like outside of you know, your spousing,

your kids, and your family. I mean, I'd always felt those connections but kind of those deeper connections based on purpose, you know, I had never had before Jordan's there's something really a lot of really important things that you're saying that I want to highlight because I think for the listener we could jump to, well, I'm not a physician and I don't have the financial means to be financially

independent right now, and just kind of tune out. But so much of what you're saying is relevant to all of us. Identity. We all have identity. Sometimes our identity is rooted in the correct, accurate places. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's incongruent with maybe who we truly are, and so there's a journey in finding that. The art of subtraction.

I love that concept. I think that applies to all of us, whether we're financially independent or not, we can implement on this art of subtraction finding meaning and purpose. We all want that. Again. Sometimes we find meaning and purpose and the things that are in line with what we got a degree in. Sometimes it's not. And sometimes finding the permission to take that journey and really locate where meaning and purposes valuing your own life and capacities.

I hear that coming out and what you're saying of. There was burnout, there was a lot of anxiety, there was fill in the blank, and you valued yourself enough and recognize your capacities enough to make some shifts within what you find meaning in, within your identity, within what it feels life giving to you, and what what you

set your hands to can shift in drastic ways. I think a lot of us need to hear that messaging over and over and over again that it's not just because of some set of specific circumstances that you have Jordan's. Everyone has the permission to shift in drastic ways what you're doing if you're really finding you know what. I know, I set my hands at this since I was thirteen years old, But my actual tasks can change, maybe some of where I find meaning and purpose can change. So

whole smokes. It's like five massive bullet points that I just I'm taking with me, and I hope our listeners ken as well. One of the hypothesis of taking stuff the book I wrote actually is you shouldn't do it like me. I built my financial house and got myself financially in order, and only then did I think of meaning and purpose, and in fact That's why I think

I became depressed and had a panic attack. Ideally, we start thinking of what I call purpose, identity, and connections, but it's that sense of meaning before and then build our financial structure around it. Yes, I was a doctor, Yes, in a sense, that was a place of privilege. But look no further than Jen Smith, co host of Frugal Friends, who started her career in acupuncture and did exactly that.

She thought about purpose, identity and connections before she was financially independent, when I believe she had debt and was able to pivot even when she wasn't in that privile financial place and eventually lead to more wealth. And I'm using wealth loosely, not just more economic wealth, but probably more joy and satisfaction in what she was spending her time on a daily basis doing. And so I agree, And I'm the first to admit I come from a

very privileged place to have gotten through medical school. They have had the money to afford it and to have a high paying job. But there are myriad examples of people who start using this knowledge at the beginning of their journey and then actually build a financial structure that supports that meaning and purpose and I think that's like a big takeaway. Yeah, absolutely, and it is something to

to strive for. I think in whatever your financial goal is currently, the goal isn't too build X number of dollars of net worth or to save X number of dollars to become financially independent. The goal is to always discover who am I and how can I do more of what I love? How can I afford to live the life I love, that my partner loves, that my family loves, and like, nine times out of ten, it's not gonna You don't have to be a millionaire or

a multimillionaire to live that. If you think about the life you want to live and who you are and unpack it and unpack it and unpack it some more, you can afford it way earlier than you think you can. This type of creativity because you're not talking about becoming financially independent and then quitting your job. You kept working you it allowed you to get creative in the way you pursue work. That is what financial security did for you. And that's really like the goal is not to quit

working or retire early. It's too to be have this one thing taken care of and to be able to pursue the other things that you care more about. I mean, money is a tool and not a goal. And we're all stuck with the fact that we have a set amount of time on this earth. We don't we don't know how much right. Everyone is slightly different. Some people live longer, some people live less. But we have these time slots that we can't commoditize. We can't buy, we

can't sell we change. We can't change them. Time passes no matter what. The one thing we might be able to change is what activities we place in those time slots. And so the idea of money is to use it as a goal to fill those time slots as much as possible with things that give us meaning and purpose. Here's the great thing. Sometimes you realize that you can fill yourself. You can fill those time slots with meaning

and purpose before you have money. So a perfect example from my life how I did it wrong is it took me to become financially independent. I had to burn out and that when I discovered hospice. What if I had done more of this purpose and identity work when I had started my medical career and found hospice at the beginning, and maybe I wouldn't have practiced general medicine at all. I would have practiced hospice, and I would have made about a fourth of the income. But I

probably would have never burned out. I probably would have enjoyed my life more. And so maybe I would have had to work another ten years, but I probably would have found that work so much more fulfilling. It would have changed my life, and it would have changed my trajectory. Now. Obviously, it's easy to look back hindsight and say, oh, I

could have done this different or that different. But doing that work early might mean that you spend a lot more time early on doing things that have purpose and identity for you and delay your path to financial independence or retirement. But hey, that might be okay. You know, ask someone like my father, who died at forty that purpose and identity related activities that he did up into the age of forty. That was all the time he got.

And thankfully he actually was very focused on hobbies and things he loved, and he loved the practice of medicine. So he did a great job of filling those spaces, the limited number of spaces he had, with things that were important to him. What you're saying here, Jordan is

so interesting. Can can you talk more to both from the perspective of your own journey and your work with hospice patients about this whole I don't know if you'd use the word time hacking technique, but how you kind of modify this perception of time passing to be able to fill some of those moments with meaning. What do you have to say more on this topic? So, I think we need to be really thoughtful about time, because again, that's the one thing we can't change. It's pretty much

said it. What we can do is change what activities we put in those time flots, and to a smaller extent, we can somewhat modify our perception of time. Which sounds like a funny thing, right, How do you modify your perception of time? But think about it. If I say count to a hundred and you do that, and then I say assume the plank position and also count to a hundred, I'm telling you that when you're doing in the plank position, it's going to feel like a lot

longer than it is. Often, when we're doing things we don't like, we feel like time as slow as can be, and yet if we do something we love, time seems to fly. A favorite saying of mine from having children is the days are long and the years are short. The point is, at different times in our life we perceive time differently, and that's why when you're seven or eight years old, a full year feels like forever, and when you're forty eight, like me, the years seem to

pass really quickly. So how does that play into our lives. Well, different people feel differently about time perception. So, for instance, at the beginning of my career, I really felt like I had all the time in the world because I felt deep down inside that unlike my father, I was probably gonna live to an old age. So I didn't mind when I was young grinding it out working long hours. I mean as a physician, especially as a young physician, I might work twenty four or thirty six hours in

a row. The days lasted forever. I mean, it felt like forever, just from the beginning of residency the end of residency. But I was kind of comfortable with that because I felt like the days were lasting forever. I

felt like I would live for a long time. For me, it made sense to work those days really fully and make as much money as I could and put it into the stock market and let it compound so that when I got older and time started to fly, at least then I wouldn't have to worry about working, because I'd have enough money to really have better control of those time slots. That's me, But then there are also

some people who feel the exact opposite. There in their twenty maybe they think they're gonna die young, like my father actually thought he was going to die young, told my mom this when they got married. For someone like him, or someone who just really can't do the like working, you know, nine to eight every day, seven days a week, grinding it out. For those kind of people, they feel time fleeing immediately. Even if they're young, they feel they're

wasting time by being in the office so much. For those kind of people, their path to financial independence might be something more with passive income inside hustles. Right, they may do some concerted effort to buy a bunch of real estate, or a concerted effort to build a podcast or sell digital products, and then that will allow them

to have more free time. Now, their version of financial independence might be getting enough side hustle and passive income money every month to pay their bills, maybe not accruing a lot of long term wealth, but at least being able to pay their bills, so they have a lot more say over their time. So it all depends on

how we per eve time. But if we think a little bit about that, we can then start building our life around that, both with meaning and purpose, but also with our financial independent structure, because in my opinion, there at least three main ways to hit financial independence, and every person goes out a little different. They're different things that are important to them which will help them decide which path to take. I appreciate how you're describing that.

It doesn't have to look the same for everybody, but it's important to understand your own perspective and perception on it, and that that can be an indicator of how you want to go about your finances, making meaning of your time, finding purpose, getting at your identity, all of these things converging into one. I'm certainly one of the ones who wants to enjoy my life now and in the future.

Thank you as somebody in the fire community who gives permission to people to live your life now and not on the other side, because that's what we read about so much, is to stalk away so much now to you know, like get rid of all of your debt and just like get financially fit percent now and then live your life um and then pursue entrepreneurship or whatever have you. But to give permission to have almost a

balance too. But I hate viewing it like balance, because it is just to give permission to like live now because you don't know if you're going to get the years beyond forty, but you still want to live in a way that's wise and will not put a burden on your children when you're eighty. I mean there's a tension right between yolo you live only once, spend now and enjoy yourself and deferred gratification. And I think a lot of us don't spend any time actually thinking about

that dichotomy. A lot of people either yolo all the time or they defer gratification all the time. And in reality and then practice, we need to be a little bit more thoughtful. If we make an error and go too much on one direction or the other, their consequences, right, So if you defer gratification too much, you never enjoy today, and God forbid you die young or something happens and you lose all your money, then you never really enjoyed it.

On the other hand, if you do the yolo thing and you spend all your money, you get to these later stages in life where you can't enjoy yourself, and God forbid, you might never retire. So we need to be real thoughtful about how much role both yolo and deferred gratification playing our lives. And the mistake is feeling that we have to pick one or the other. The truth of the matter is we have to toggle between them depending on where we are in life and what's

important to us. And there's some really good ways to do that. You just have to be thoughtful about it. Mathematical formula that I can plug in to toggle that tension. Is there a formula that I can get, you know, like a rule variable? So here's the problem. There's no formula, but there's a way to be really thoughtful about it. So one of the questions I posed in this book, which I think will help you decide between those extremes, is are you afraid that you're gonna die too soon

and never enjoy your wealth? Or are you afraid you're gonna live too long and die broke? If you can. You don't know the answer, right, No one knows what's going to happen to them. But if you can at least figure out which is your biggest fear, you can then start living today intentionally. So let me give you example. As I mentioned, my father died at forty and he really believed he was going to die young. He told my mom this way before it happened. You know, my

father didn't really save for retirement. I mean, he got life insurance for us, and he he actually encouraged my mom to go get a career on her own after children, because he's like, you never know if I'm gonna be here or not. But he turned down the first job out of his fellowship. He turned down an extremely prestigious position at a very high paying oncology group to stay at the university to do the work he loved, which was not nearly as stressful, didn't require nearly as many hours.

But that's because he loved photography and he loved woodworking, and he was learning a new language when he died, and he was kind of taking advantage of the here and Now, my dad really did YOLO, and he didn't do much defer gratification, but that made sense because he died at forty and he wasn't going to live out all those years. He kind of had a premonition. If you feel like my dad did, then I tell everybody

you should build a pathway towards financial independence. But let's say fifty percent of what you make each month goes to paying bills, so we can't do anything with that. So then we have the second. If you think you're gonna die young, maybe ten percent goes to financial independence and goes into a YOLO fund and you live it up like you use that money is what it was meant to be a tool. If you die young, then you lived really well up until the point you die.

If you don't die young and you're wrong, well you've been saving the whole time ten percent, So you're probably not going to retire into your sixty five or even seventy. But you know what, your life has been pretty good throughout. I mean, you've been spending money, enjoying yourself, taking those great vacations, and you can keep doing that all the way to sixty five or seventy when you retire. That's

one extreme. The other extreme, Like me, I thought I was gonna live long, and I was afraid of running out of money. So for me, I didn't mind grinding it out and saving, you know, and putting ten percent in my yolo fund because I wanted a crew enough money so that I could put in the stock market and then it could compound and I could retire early and then have all the time and space I wanted. And so if you can kind of tie goggle between

that question, it's not perfect. It's not going to say oh that, and probably there's trial and error, Like you might have to spend a year being a little more aggressive with your yellow and say, oh, well, maybe I want to be a little less aggressive because I want to retire a little bit earlier than that. Like, you can play around with it, but I've never found a better tool to help you start making that differentiation so that you can, in a sense, get the most best

of both worlds. I appreciate this. It's not just making fear based decisions, but it's allowing our fear to inform us about what's important where we want to spend our time. There's a lot of liars that can inform the decisions that we make. But this does speak a little bit more to what we often talk about of just being curious with ourselves, not totally shoving those thoughts, concerns, fears aside. But what does this tell me about myself? How does this inform me about the way that I want to

live now and in the future. I think it can be a really helpful way of perceiving this. Mm hmm. Yeah, I absolutely love the again permission it gives us to be in the radical middle, Like, you don't have to be there. It's very uh easy to find influencers who are promoting extremes because that's what goes viral, but too actually have your own permission to get curious, to look into your fear and then like accept the part of the fears what makes you who you are, but not

letting it dictate like the extent where you go. Yeah, And the problem with extremes is extremes work for certain personality types. Right, So in a sense, it worked for me to be extreme on savings because I was just so head over heels at hitting financial dependence as quick as possible. But the reality is our financial plan has to be really personal, and to be really personal, it's really had had to go to the extremes because most of us aren't. We don't live in the extremes. Most

of us live somewhere in that great big middle. But you know, rules and a lot of what people put out about personal finance, it's never gonna fit you exactly. So we have to take the best pieces of those things and then find a way to be really intentional

and fit them into our lives. I love this idea that if we think enough about it, if we're intentional, we start considering things like purpose, identity, and connection, we can actually make a financial plan that is uniquely ours but then fits us better than any of the cookie cutter plans out there that you can, you know, spend a few cents on and buy a flow sheet and put in the numbers and know what to do. I think those are great starting points. I think we need those.

But then I think we have to take that next step and start making them really personal. Yeah, do you know what else we can make personal and and have to be cookie cutter? And I am extremely passionate about the bill of the week. That's right, it's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died, and you're happy

to not have to pay that bill anymore. To Bill Buffalo Bills, Bill Clinton, this is the bill of the week, Jordan's. Every week, as you are familiar with, we ask our listeners or our guests to share with us their bill of the week, and I am excited to hear yours. So I have a bill squared. And this is actually to celebrate someone who has been incredibly supportive over of

me over the years. I paid the bill at the United States Post Office to send an early signed copy of my book to one of my favorite people, Bill Youun't, who has been in the personal finance world, in the financial independence world for quite a long time and has always been incredibly supportive of me. So it's a bill squared because I paid a bill to send a book to a Bill and it's a chance for me to thank him for all the great things he's done for me. Oh,

that's amazing. What is his blog? So he doesn't, well, he has a blog, but he's not that active. And it's The Financial Literacy Project is probably the best way to find him, and that's on Facebook, all right, the Financial Literacy Project. I knew I recognized that name. Yes, I'm so glad that we have another bill person. It's

always great to have a bill person. And then when they're liared bills, I don't know if we've ever had If you all listening, want to submit your bill of the week, if it is bill on bill on bill or just a single bill bill, cubed bill quad. We even get real crazy visit Frugal Friends podcast dot com, slash bill, leave us what you got, and now it's time for lightning round. So today's lightning round question. We're all going to get a smidge vulnerable. What was the

most life changing thing you've learned from someone? And I guess it could be like in a book, but like preferably in your life somebody who who somebody couldn't read about. It's not a mandatory stipulation. But so this for sure goes to my mother, you know, throughout childhood because I had a learning disability, because I think my father died because I was always very very hard on myself. You know, I was always really down on myself. I never felt

like I was good at the things I tried. And one of the things I think my mom really taught me and is stuck with me is she always kind of said, you are enough already. And I think that was just such a big life lesson that even as an adult now, I find myself saying that to me when I feel down about something, like if I didn't accomplish something, or I didn't do it the way I wanted to do, or something big failed, or I'll turn that around if I'm about to walk into something that

scares me. It's something that she kind of taught me and I try to teach my kids, and I think it's just had a profound effect on me as a person, and one a great thing to receive from your mom because that's such a pivotal relationship. So if she thought that of you, probably all the more able to take root inside of you. Yeah, certainly, And especially having kids like now, every day it's like, how can I show them that they're enough already, regardless of what tomorrow brings.

That's beautiful for me. This is always tough for me, Like what what's the most What is your top favorite? I think there's so many collection probably for all of us and layers of things that form us. But one thing that has been pivotal comes from Oh, gosh, this woman, I'll shout her out, Bethan Miller. She is. It's hard to describe my relationship with her great friend, confident, mentor boss. She's my boss now I was her boss. It's a unique relationship. And she shared with me at one point

or just maybe this admonition be kind to yourself. It was something she took from somebody else, and it was something she often repeated to me, and probably because she knew that I needed to hear it. I am definitely an achiever. I have high standards, high standard of responsibility, and will often sacrifice myself for step over myself for my own needs to kind of just like do the

next thing. And this messaging of hey, be kind to yourself and to me, that really was congruent with freedom and permission and what would kindness towards another person look like, Hey, why don't you do that for yourself? Just so simple, but when I started to really grasp it, definitely pivotal. And for those I'm a counselor and social worker as my day job, and and I'm starting to hear some of my clients say that they're finding me on this podcast,

which is a little bit alarming. I really talk about that in my day job. But they will also recognize this is a very common phrase that I will say to my clients at the end of every session. Be kind to yourself. Be kind to yourself. And it has been revelatory for me and hopefully for others as that message begins to take root. Mm hmm. Well, this is why I hate going last um because I read this before. I was the first one to read this, and I already my answer picked out, and so this is my

original answer. It's this um, the social media like movement that says you are enough. I've been seeing these doodles, yeah right, Jordan, and I was thinking you went and I was like, dang it, um, But all these doodles and stuff that say you are enough, and I think seeing it over and over again, like, I too, am an achiever, and I think my worth is tied to the amount of money I can bring into the household

and the success I can have. But actually having to stop when I get into those little tailspins, like the most recent one was literally this weekend, because I have you know our next like my next personal goal is for us to get a book deal and to look for an agent and and to pursue that. And it's something I've always wanted and just now feel like we're

ready to pursue. And I had to sit I had to I was getting so worked up in it, and I had to sit down and be like, you are enough, whether you get this or not, whether you get the publishing house you want or not, whatever the royalty negotiation, however it goes, you are You are enough. You don't need this, like you are enough to your husband, to your child, to your friends. And that is something that

keeps me. I am always a naturally ambitious person, so it's not going to keep me complacent, but it will keep me from having the tailspin of achievement failure sadness, because any ambitious person is going to fail, and you just have to fail with grace and fail forward. But if your entire identity is wrapped up in success and achievement, then that becomes a tailspin. And so it keeps me from that neg getivity. Just this phrase, you are enough.

So how interesting all of our life changing things has to do with messaging to ourselves. That's really where it starts. Yeah, you know, I have a theory about life as a work. Through this book, I've really thought about happiness and what

equates to people who generally feel contented and happy. And one of the conclusions I've come to is happy people generally tell themselves the stories about their lives that are magical regardless of what happened, and sad people tend to look at their lives and feel they got, you know, a bad shake at it. So people like who look at their lives and say, oh that you know, that person died and I lost that job and I was homeless and blah blah. But people say, but that was

the magic of got what got me here today? Those people tend to be incredibly happy. So some of it, I think really is as you were saying, is this kind of stories we tell our self? Yeah. Absolutely, And I know that you have so many more of those stories in your book and I can't wait for people to read it. It's like one of these I think most important questions you can ask yourself is like, what

do you want your obituary to say? And it's something that as somebody who does not work with the you know, people who are dead and dying you don't want to think about. But when you are constantly working with people who are going onto that next stage, you you get to think about it. And I think, if you don't want to work with dying people, at least read a book from somebody who comes from that. So um where can people find more from you and get your book?

Et cetera. So the book is taking Stock a Hospice Actors Advice and financial independence, building wealth and living of grift free life. You can find it wherever you can find books, especially online. You're talking about Amazon, Barnes and Knowable Target books a million as well as you can go to Jordan Grummit dot com. That's j O R d A N G r u m et dot com. There you can find out all about the book, and there are also links to my really three main platforms.

One is a medical blog which I don't write in anymore, but I've been writing since two thousand five about medicine. The link is there, as well as the link to my financial blog called diverse fi dot com, as well as the link to the Earning invest podcast. It's easiest way to get everywhere and learn my socials, or you can go to Earn and invest dot com if you're just interested in the podcast. It's a good podcast, great guests,

great cast, especially that one that keeps talking amazing. Jordan, thank you so much for sharing your perspective, both from your own life and the work that you do in a variety of spheres. I know that it has been inspiring to me and hopefully to our listeners. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me on one of

my favorite podcasts. That was definitely one of my favorite interviews that we've done, and half because Jordan is a friend, but also the other half is because I just when I listened to him, I feel like I'm living in a story, like I'm part of a story. He's very well spoken, and he does say is one of his enjoys in life is public speaking, and that certainly comes out. And even speaking from someone who doesn't know Jordan as well as you do, Jen me, I really really appreciate

his perspective. Again, he stands out to me, and this is something I shared with him when we were on his show, because he didn't leave his field entirely and that really resonates with me. Yes, I personally find myself also in the personal finance space. But I also have not left my job. It doesn't always mean a complete departure from what we enjoy. Maybe what we grew up in, what what we were trained into. There's parts of it

we might still enjoy. And and I think purpose and meaning and tasks and job assignments and roles can and do shift throughout life. Sometimes it's related to what we studied, sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's a blend. So I think he just brings both from the medical field and the financial perspective and his own experience and the experiences of his patients, just so much good stuff. So anyhow, I could just say I resonate with what you say gen of really enjoying him, and I think we would do

well to continue to soak up more content from him. Yeah, and I loved the all the all the permission, and it was separate from even him being a doctor. Like you can do that in your field, Jill, I have done it, like for me, is to just subtract act everything until you are only doing what you enjoy doing. But that's it's easier to do when you have like financial security, like I'm not financially independent. Absolutely not. I could not stop working, which is okay, because I love

what I do. I don't want to stop working. Like I don't need to be financially independent. I don't make six figures like I'm not super wealthy. Neither does my husband. Like we don't make we're financially stable because we've worked towards making an income that affords us the lifestyle we want, and that's what we did, Like, you know, not super high incomes f my first class all the time. I

don't even think that there's like an arrival either. I think I've hit already now, like in my mid thirties. I have hit this point of a pivot many times just in my career where I set my hands to do something. I did the thing, it was what I wanted to do, but then I kind of grew out of that and wanted to change in a shift, and then I set my hands to something new, and then okay,

what's next. So I don't even think that even once we find the thing that feels life giving, that it's always going to look the same as it did when we even began it. And so there's freedom in that too, to keep discovering what are you good at, what is your experiences lent itself to, What knowledge do you now have and do you want to utilize it in a different way than maybe you did ten years ago. So it's also exciting glad to be along in the journey

with you all. Thank you for listening. I hope this was as rich and beneficial to you all as it is to us personally. Many of you know that we also have a private community where we do monthly money challenges. Just like even more of this community and learning from one another. It offers accountability groups and so much more. And now we are wanting to be congratulating some of our members for big wins at the end of each of these episodes. So Emily, this is a shout out

to you, she said. Since joining the Frugal Friends Club and working through the monthly challenges, I've made some huge mindset shifts. Now instead of running out to buy something I quote unquote need, I try to find a creative way to solve my problem or get what I need. Last month, we had family visiting and needed an extra sleeping accommodation. Instead of buying a bed we would need to sell when we move next year, or buying an

air mattress we would hardly ever use. I asked in my local buy nothing group and was able to borrow a really nice air mattress from someone just down the road. This saved resources, time space in my closet, and money. Emily like, you're getting it, You've got it. I love that mindset. We love to hear. Congrats Emily. Thank you all for listening. If you want to check out our monthly challenge community, head to Frugal Friends podcast dot com sa ash Club and see what challenge we have coming

up next. We love to gamify things and have fun with you all. Yes, we'll see you next time. By Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Syrian. So after talking with Jordan, I feel like I need to change my lightning round two. Sell them what they want, give them what they need. This is a phrase that I use often, and it's because traditional frugal living is not what we talk about, and so we almost are doing it backwards

were the name of our show. But we get to talk about like this new brand of frugality every week that I love going. I love going up against the traditional definition of this word frugal and so kind of selling them what they think they want and then given them what they need. Is that a life changing thing that you've learned or is it a life changing thing you're trying to make up in for others, just like

a marketing technique. It is. I didn't come up with it, though, so I can't say that I'm trying to change people with it. I don't remember where I heard it, but it has changed my life. Sometimes we don't know what we need until we get tricked into it. Yeah, and I'm here to manipulate you into everything you don't think you want, but I think you want. I didn't know I needed Eric. I kind of got tricked into my life with him. But it's the best thing ever. What

a great trick. Now. I really thought that he was just going to be someone I dated for like ten days. Uh, and then you know quick bait, which ended up being married for ten years and counting. So yeah, that you don't He really did sell me what I wanted and gave me what I needed. Yeah, it changed all of our lives. Great. Yeah, and he's still he'll still doing it, still doing it. He is master manipulators. You two, that is how you have a spiral staircase up to your roof.

Maybe the two of you are in cahoots. You both be telling me what I want, giving me what I need. I don't know. We were just talking about the new studio backdrop while you were in the other room. Yeah, so knows what's coming for me next. I'm excited.