Intentional Strategies to Increase Your Income with Rich Jones

proof of your accomplishments and not your expenses. Start your spending makeover right now at Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash makeover.

to check out. Also, episode two sixty three, how to Negotiate a higher salary in any Field with Mandy Woodruff Santos really really another excellent, excellent one.

We're both as a headhunter for a staffing agency and then as an in house or internal recruiter for large corporate companies and even smaller tech startups. So I've been in staffing recruiting HR really since twenty ten, and I've been building things online since two thousand and eight, including a couple of award winning blogs that people don't know about. That's what some of these awards are in the background.

And then I started podcasting in twenty thirteen because I was trying to find content that spoke to me, and a lot of the personal finance content at the time it felt like it was either boring or I saw the same face of the older white gent I saw the same face of the older white gentleman in a suit, and that was kind of the face of personal finance at the time in twenty thirteen, and so I really wanted to create what I couldn't find, and that kind

of led to the first podcast. But that podcast talked about everything under the sun. And then in twenty sixteen, we did the whole niche thing down and rebranded, and that's when paychecks and balances, was officially bored, and so getting ready to start a new season of the podcast, which is pretty awesome, have a lot of exciting guests that are lined up, and yeah, really love sharing my experience with working in the professional world, but also how

good career decisions lead to good financial outcomes. So how do we bridge the gap between the conversations that are having around money and also the conversations that are happening around work.

I giving myself space to recharge? Am I able to do the level of research and thorough pre show prep to ensure that I do each guest justice? Oh that was a hard couple of words together. So it's going to be more work going forward. But I think what's also been helpful is hiring a team and being in a place with the business side of things to where I can say I don't need to be up all night.

I could afford to hire someone to do some of these tasks, especially when I'm at work during the day, which is really difficult and challenging, and so I've been fortunate enough to get to a place where I can afford to pay a few people to help out. So three freelancers to virtual assistants, and I'll probably be hiring more people in the next few months.

world and vice versa. But yeah, yeah, the hiring is Oh, I made my life so much better just getting a few more folks on board to help with the writing, because y'all know, I mean, it's a lot of work when you're creating content, plus you're running the business, so you know, you're writing, you're podcasting, you're you're videoing your tiktoking your YouTube and your story and you're doing kids, family,

all these other things that are going on. It's really difficult, and I find sometimes the only way to be able to manage it all is to contract some of that out, even hiring a house cleaner. Some people think of house cleaners as like this, like bougie thing. I'm like, no, this saves hours per week. Same thing with meal delivery services, like oh, that's like fans. No, this is getting me

time back. So I will spend a little money in interest of getting back time because frugality for me is spending less on the things I don't care about and more on the things that are important to me.

And thrilled to hear rich about your role in looking

at diversity, equity and inclusion. I think that that absolutely dies into what we're talking about here and the people who are experiencing barriers to increasing salary or negotiating those pieces, whether internally or externally, And so thrilled to hear your perspective on this today, and for starters, I think we're curious to hear from your own perspective and experience what you see when it comes to resumes, interviewing, negotiating salaries.

Is there a difference between men and women. We can even talk about culturally too, however you want to angle that one. But curious what you even see just as far as barriers in these different categories A.

managers that are out there. In general, I think that there are a lot of people who become managers just as a step along their career path. They actually don't have a desire to manage people. They just see that as a box that they need to check to get into whatever leadership position it is that they ultimately want to be in. And as a result, those people who they actually manage suffer because maybe this person doesn't have a high emotional intelligence, Maybe this person doesn't know how

to help somebody identify their professional goals. I don't expect a manager at work to be able to help you define your personal values, but I do believe a manager should be able to coach and should be able to get you to think and have some of these conversations where you arrive at details that are critically important to you. I don't think most folks actually do the work of sitting down and defining their values. And so what I see in the workplace is a lot of bad management.

And then I say that even from having had multiple managers over the course of my career, and I'd like to think that I've been a good manager, but no, I have been a good manager. Darned. People have told me enough that I have been a good manager. And what makes it tricky with men and women is that corporate America, it's a very just like vocal culture, it's very friendly to extroverts, where the louder you are, you know, the whole what's that's saying, like the squeaky wheel gets

degrees or whatever. And what's interesting when it comes to getting raises and promotions at work, that requires you to advocate for yourself at a certain level, because it is not your manager's job to track your accomplishments. It is your own. And I think what happens a lot of times is people expect that their manager is keeping track of everything that they've done throughout the year, and then when it comes time for a performance review conversation and

the rating isn't where they thought it would be. They're surprised, and now they're upset with their manager, and now they have all of these questions. But the manager has a million things going on in their lives. A manager has all these meetings and other responsibilities. And I've noticed that when it comes to advocating for self that it does require I'd say that it does require a bit moreof

for women. And I do think that there are some like gender and social dynamics that I think are at play there where sometimes people don't want to come up is come off as being like two opinionated, or or come off as being difficult in some of those stereotypes that have traditionally been at least associated with women in the workplace, like oh, she's uh, what's the what's the phrase they always say about women who have strong opinions. It's like one of those coded words like oh, she's.

But then it also requires you to actually like write down what you're doing throughout the year so that when it comes time for these performance review conversations, you've already got the receipts. And I have found that that men, for whatever reasons, tend to be more frequent at advocating for themselves and keeping track of everything. I'm sure there's some privileged stuff that's within there as well, whereas women

aren't as quick to advocate. And also I found that women and even underrepresented minority groups will look at a they'll look at a job description and they will self select and not apply for certain roles because they don't have every skill, whereas other groups will see that they don't have everything and apply anyway. So sometimes based on gender and other factors, people actually block their own blessings because they'll they'll look and say I don't have everything

when they should have just applied. And there has been research to show that women will often filter themselves out more than men who will just go full steam ahead and then apply for the same role.

start of the application process. And so I think even some of what you're saying is the internal things that are happening inside of some of our minds, whether it's an introverted extroverted thing, or it's a minority group thing, or it's a gender thing like and it's probably it's probably all of it collectively. It's not like one thing that we can hang our hat on and say that's it. But there are some of these barriers that happen just inside of our head that say, no, that's not for me.

And you even alluded to this rich like personal finance looked like a well dressed white man, and so just that, like the imagery that comes to mind already kind of predisposes us to maybe not negotiating or not thinking that I should keep a record of all the good things that I've done and present it to somebody like I get a little sweaty thinking about that. Honestly, it's I.

like Tony said, I got nice shoes. But if I helped deliver on a project, if somebody was in a pinch and I helped them with something and they sent me a note afterwards and said, Rich really appreciated your help. I keep all of that because I mean not so not just so I can look at it and feel

good about myself, though I think that's important too. Not sure if you all ever talked about like encouragement jars where you keep the positive feedback that you get so that when you're in a period where times do feel really down and difficult, you can kind of refer to that and to get you back into a good mental place.

review season, it's not just my manager. We also need to get collect feedback from our peers, and so I want to have a list of all of the people that I had a positive interaction with so that when I need to select peer review, I can go through and say, Okay, who are the people that I've helped out, what's the level of meaningfulness impact what level of seniority.

I would love to have some feedback from folks who are more senior than myself as opposed to just having feedback from folks who are at my level and below. And so little simple things even if a director reaches out and asks me a question, and they ask me if I can take care of something, even if it's just something I spend an hour on, I keep track of that because at the point they're reaching out to me to work on it, I know that they're in a pinch, and it's just little things like that add

up over time. And I don't know that we're also thoughtful about Not that I am, because I certainly was not for many years. But I don't know if we're all as thoughtful about keeping track of these little things that may seem insignificant that when you add them together and it's just like investing or anything else, it compounds, you know.

the data speak for itself. Let's let this list speak for itself, and it can kind of like solve some of those mental block barriers almost.

But when you look you're like, Wow, I actually got like forty or fifty transactional task done this week. Yes, I don't love doing those things, but that's something and it even helps, like say you want to be able to have a conversation with your manager about expectations or even about how you're spending your time, being able to say, like, hey, I'm spending forty to fifty percent of my time on

transactional task replying to email. I'd love to start working on projects that have a bit more exposure and a bit more scope. And so by scope, I just mean like the realm of impact and probably the level that you need to work across different teams in that particular organization. And you don't know any of that stuff if you don't write it down. I really do think that like that's the most key and foundational thing to negotiating, because

if you're not confident, how can you negotiate? Uh. And so if you have all these receipts and you're getting ready to go into a performance review conversation, and by the way, I think you should be having this type of conversation with the manager every month to make sure that you're on the same page. So you don't end

up in performance review season with surprises. But you should be happily in those conversations like sharing and when they say hey, like what's been going on, you're like, oh, you know, just just plugging along, like no, say hey, things have been going well. I got some great feedback from this that because your manager may even start to ask you more questions and then next thing you know, they might say something like, oh, I didn't know you were so passionate about that. Wow, I didn't know that

was a skill of yours. Do you want to work on this thing? So it's just important that you don't just wait for that one time of the year to have the conversation, that you're having that conversation throughout the

year on a regular basis, whether it's weekly. I mean, you don't have to go look at what I did you know, every single day, but there should be a regular cadence where you're having career conversations with your manager, and if your manager is not scheduling that with you, it is your responsibility to find that time and on your career and drive that conversation with them.

But that factor even within negotiating for external and I'll get to the internal piece, but even external, one thing I tell people is do not divulge your salary unless it's somehow required, because apparently there are some fields where you have to provide that information, or if you work for the government, it's public information. But if you can avoid divulging that upfront, let them speak first and come

back to the end, fantastic. I think for internal it's a bit more challenging because, for example, where I work you can't just in the middle of a performance cycle say hey, I want to raise and just send a note to HR and ask for a raise. That the main opportunities are during that performance review conversation, and then also if you get a promotion, and then depending on the size of the company that you work at, maybe you can

make some type of lateral move. And so that's what I've done for my last couple of jobs, where I maintained my level and I went from being a staffing lead to an internal communications and change management program manager, and then from I laddered again to move into the

DEI world. And that doesn't necessarily correlate to a pay increase every time, but from a job satisfaction, mental real estate, mental wealth perspective, I think that there's a lot to that because I find even if I'm working more hours, that if I enjoy the work and it's something that I'm passionate and excited about, it doesn't drain away from my energy to still work on things outside of the office that are important to me. So the money part

is super important. I do think when you're internal it's more challenging. The other best way to get an increase is to get an external offer and then come back and say, hey, I have this external offer. But that is a risky move because if you just go at some places, if you just go and start interviewing, they assume that you're no longer loyal and that you want to leave, and so you have to be comfortable accepting

that risk. But I have seen people where if they are top performers, they go, especially after they've worked somewhere for a few years, because I think after about two years somewhere, if you don't like move or make a change your the de rate at which your pay is going up actually starts to decrease. Damnit, I just lost it again. Can y'all edit this? You'll do a jump cut on this?

negotiating that that first five thousand. But when you're internal, yeah, there it is, and you get that external offer and you're a high performer, the company may say, crap, like we need to come up on this to be able to keep this person, or maybe it triggers them to look at all the pay equity internally, because what typically happens you stay in the same role for a few years. This has happened to me. You stay in the same role for a few years, You get little raises here

and there, and it feels good. But then when you check the market and you start interviewing, and then you realize people are making twenty twenty five thirty percent more than you, that's when it's like, oh crap. So I have seen it work where you go out and interview elsewhere to get a sense of your market value. But you also need to be comfortable knowing that if you come back with the offer that the company may just say, well, okay, see you later.

where I am. I'm happy with the equity. I'm happy with a lot of the freedom that the role provides. And I just mentioned that because the money is one part of it. But sometimes there are these other benefits where it's like the cost of healthcare, vacation time, Google's like fertility in introvite. I don't even know how you pronounce.

sixty thousand dollars plus all these other benefits. This other job pays eighty K, but I don't get any of that. Now, I can't do all of the mouth and that quickly in my head. But hopefully the way that it works out from how I described it is that that job that paid less as far as salary, when you factor in how much money is saved in terms of benefits, or maybe they have a childcare offering that quickly makes

up that that EIGHTYK that that other salary had. So so it's import that people think about the money part

of it. But it's also important that people think about what are the other benefits or the other things that are important to me, So going back to that values part and even just kind of like core needs, like what are the things that I absolutely need in my next role based off of where I want to go in my life or where I want my family to be, and let me decide from that perspective as opposed to deciding based on the dollar amount loan, Because if you

decide based on the dollar amount alone, there is a I don't have data to support it, but there was a pretty good chance you will ultimately end up unhappy and unfulfilled.

the worst they're going to do? Say no? But I'm like, okay when that's the case when it comes to finances, But you know you still want to stay in it, consider asking for other things to her. Flexibility is really important, So ask for more vacation time, ask for better health benefits, ask for an increase in your four oh one K match like who knows. But there's different ways that we can explore negotiation, not just salary. So I really appreciate your focus on that.

from other companies, like discounts on MacBooks. So there are all of these things that are even discount on travel. There are all of these things that are available there, even sometimes they're buried in some five hundred page employee handbook or the company isn't as good as socializing all of the various resources that are available. And that's why I emphasize so much that this career progression thing really

is on the individual. It really is on you to stay on track of all of these things and not assume that other people don't know how to do their job. But just take your career, and you take your life and your own just live intentionally. I feel like when

you live intentionally, things just work out. Not all of the time you're going to have these peaks and valleys and dips, but when you're moving intentionally with a goal in mind, whether it's short term or long term, I just find that even with all of the turbulence that happens in life, it still feels easier to get there because ultimately you know what it is that you are working toward. And I think the same thing applies to your career.

That was my first role as an HR generalist, and the reason that I was able to get into that role is because I had did a bid I'm gonna call it a bid like it was prison at a staffing agency that I did that was because I found out to get an HR generalist role, I needed to pick up kind of more of the core HR skills or pick up what was a professional in Human Resources certification. Working at this staff engagency allowed me to get the experience and pick up credits so that I could sit

for the professional and Human Resources exam. The fact that I had picked up those credits that I was positioning myself for this exam made this company interested in me because they saw that I was serious about HR. So taking that head hunter job, I started my career in sales, but then taking that head hunter job, even that was connected to what I did in sales, because you're on the phone, you're pitching people, you're selling opportunities, and you're

selling candidates to companies, you're selling products. And so each role that I've taken has been intentional in terms of how it set me up for the next one. So when I went from that nonprofit that I won't talk about how I felt when I left it, But when I left that nonprofit, I said, I want to go to a tech startup that'll better position be to get noticed by a larger company like a Google or someone

like that. And that's what ended up happening. And I mentioned that because that career decision of I want to go to this type of company to better position me for the next thing, because it's not always that immediate next move right. Sometimes it's two or three moves down the road, and so knowing that you may have to take like a pivot or what might feel like a little bit of a step back to ultimately come up

in the long term, it's well worth it. So I encourage people just constantly thinking about like what's next, how you can pick up new skills, if there is a direction that you want to go, what are the skills that you need to pick up now or the type of projects and type of work that you need to get on, so that you can pick up more of that experience so that when it comes time to interview, or when it comes time to have that conversation about

a promotion or your readiness, you've already picked up the skills. And again it's hey, look I've got the receipts. I think even for interviewing, that same list of stuff that I write down and I do all of this in trello. When it comes time for me to interview for jobs,

same thing. I go through all of the projects that I've worked on, everything that I've accomplished, all of the people that I've talked to, and just to jog stories, what are the realm of stories or what are the realms of things that I can say in these conversations to showcase my value, my knowledge, and that I'm the person that you need to hire and get all these other candidates out the pain.

I think that's it's excellent. And to constantly be thinking about it even from day one. All Right, when am I going to negotiate for that higher pay? What do I want it to be? What are the skill sets, environments, experiences that I want to be a part of. In order so that I love the term you're using the receipts so I have the proof of it to say, here's why. It's not just oh can you give me an extra ten thousand dollars, but here's why I think

that I've earned that value for this company. Excellent.

of this stuff that I've done, and that's information that you can use internally with the current company or externally, and maybe you look at all these things that you've done, you have a conversation internally, you ask about a raise, they say no, and then you take those same receipts and those turn into resume bullet points, those turn into stories that you're telling in external interviews, which then turn into offers that you're now bringing back to your company

and saying, here's what happens when you don't pay someone their worth. I'll see you later.

The magic to a recruiter's ears or whoever you're working with on the job at the point that you do have an offer is and this is after they've told you the numbers and you have not told them what the numbers are, and they come back with the offer that's probably going to be like a pretty low or it could be really high, which would be awesome, in which case still ask for more, still ask for more.

But if you say, okay, I've looked at the offer, I'd be willing to sign this today if give whatever it is that you want, and that recruiter or that person their insteadies to get you hired, whether in house, outhouse, in house or extend house. Yeah, not in the out house. Yeah yeah, hopefully with no flies in it. But that just I could tell you just from doing this for years,

that I'm ready to sign today. If that gives the recruit of the information that they need to go back to the compensation team, the HR team, whoever's controlling the budget, and since they have extended the offer to you, it's clear that they want you. Uh. That is how you get them to do whatever they can do on their side, and typically whatever they come back with after that point is close to, if not the actual number that they

can really do. So if they offer you seventy K and you say, hey, I've looked at everything and I'd be willing. I'd be willing to sign this offer today. If we could get to eighty five, and they come back and say the highest we can do is seventy, then maybe you say, is there any flexibility on benefits, vacation time, I have some trips, and like that's kind of how it like, that's kind of how it goes as opposed to you saying, oh, well I make sixty five today, and so they anchor on you know, sixty

five or seventy you don't tell them that. You let them throw out the first number, and then your goal is just to push that up. And remember it doesn't have to be just in the dollar amount. It could be in the other benefits that you ask about as well, because let's say they say seventy five instead of eighty five, you go okay, and then you ask about benefits. As a recruiter, it's like, what other things can I do to close this person? So, okay, we got money off

the table. They seem to be cool with that, Like, what are the other things that I can do to try and sweeten the pot for this person to get them in the door. I think a lot of people negotiate from the perspective of, oh my god, I don't want to mess this up. Oh my god, I don't want to lose this opportunity. If I ask for more, they're going to walk away. And I think I've heard of that happening in like zero point one percent of cases.

And if a place does walk away from you for asking for more than that's probably not a place you want to be in the first place. But just that, and I find it works in general that if we can get to i'd be ready to today is gold.

and the market is going up or down. I know some people who are making more money than they've ever made before because the skill set is in a deficit, or just like y'all said, it's reactive and a hiring manager is incentivized to get someone in the door as quickly as possible because they're probably doing two or three x work. Someone on their team is probably doing two or three X work, and now that's creating an attrition risk.

So just remember that when you do get to that stage, you really are in the driver's seat.

days in office two days out. There's also an option where you can apply to be one hundred percent remote regardless of where you live, which I hadn't thought about as much that I'm starting to look at a lot more seriously, because for some people, being remote and working from home isn't the greatest situation family kids, Maybe it's even like an abusive situation, like who knows, but the flexibility to I've enjoyed this experience of working from home,

you know, I've gotten so much more stuff done at home than I could get done in the office because of the way that my focus is set up. And I know a lot of other people who are experiencing their utmost levels of productvity. And I've also found that there's a general feeling of empowerment where people have had a year to kind of sit around and think, like what do I want out of life? Like maybe I

should pick up a hobby habit. So people are setting up at sea stores and all of this other stuff, and these are things that would be a lot more difficult to do if it were not for us working from home. So I think there's some work to do. Work to be done in terms of how this pans out legally and like benefit wise from a certain perspective because there are things like if you work in one state but you're living somewhere else, how that impacts you.

But that flexibility for people to work from wherever they want and for companies to understand you can still get the job done. It's not just a product of being in the office. That's where I hope we go like urto or return to the office and remote flex Like it is a huge topic right now that I'm seeing with people who are leaving the company and just with folks who are perusing the career streets in general.

since July or excuse me, August twenty seventeen. And I mentioned that, and I do get expensed or I do get reimbursed for part of it through my healthcare benefit, so yeah, see benefit. But I mentioned that because because I've been thinking a lot about just where life is currently, and I was talking to Jin about this and just a lot of the abundance and things that have come

my way. Uh, and having a therapist and having a support system and having what I like to call the right investment the right investments in my life portfolio has made a huge difference. And I don't think that I'm even here having this conversation with y'all today and possibly not even here period. I know that sounds super grim if I don't start working with a therapist and start putting the right folks around me and uh and really

taking care of myself. So I'm going to go with the therapist bill because that's a bill that I don't mind paying every week.

The people are seeking out help and support more. There's also a double edged sword with that because it is there is such a need for it, but there is help available and support available. So well done, glad that that is your bill and that you're not Yeah, a shame to talk about it or do it on a regular basis, and I'm really thrilled to hear it's helping you.

in twenty eighteen. And this was somebody who, like soup, one of those extremely popular but secretly struggling folks, like just had everything, Like you thought he was gonna be a He just had everything, but like no one knew or people didn't know until afterwards and then they started piecing it together. But that's why, like I just harp, but I'm like, it is so important, Like don't be ashamed to go have a conversation, go talk to someone.

There's actually less judgment when you talk to a therapist because you know they're not your family, they're not your friends, like they're there's really no judgment. You're paying to not be judged. Which it's just great.

pay Balances. Paychecks and Balances dot Com podcast is now weekly being released on Thursday, so encourage you to come over check that out and save what's up in these social media streets.

big win. This comes from Vanessa W. Who shared My husband and I saved over forty five hundred dollars in January doing a no spend challenge. As a result, we have been able to start putting in offers on home.

it was was a beautiful little turtle flexible sand mold. However, I'm thinking this could also be an ice bold this because it was kind of silicon. Yeah, super flexible. So we bring it home and I decide to get cracking on turtle making turtle ice What I could what what is one turtle mold could be infinite ice turtles turtle and so infinite it's not the word I get going.

I washed it out first and made sure it was very free of sand, and I even began to set timers, also out of my curiosity to see how long to make one turtle? How long does it does it take make anice? It does take more than an hour. I set it for one hour and went back to it. It wasn't quite long enough, but two hours solid amount of time for a turtle ice. So I was on it. I got to the fourth one. So I have a bag that I was putting the turtle ice turtles into

and pulling them out every time adding to it. I had three done. I was about to get the fourth out. The fourth broke.

we are back on the turtle making game. I don't know what I'm gonna do with it because I don't I see it in myself. There was a part of me, what other kinds of molds could I be getting for myself? I don't want that. I don't want ice molds. I don't want my fridge to only be full of ice. Although I do love those Instagram accounts. It's fun to watch, but I can't do that. I'm only doing this because

I got a free turtle from the beach. Although my friend, who knows that I'm in a bit of transition with my work, was like, this could be your next gig. You could sell turtles making, and I prefer to keep it as a hobby. But you know, maybe in like five years from now, I discover yeah, well so far, I'm not the greatest at it. You need to practice.