Episode four forty nine, How Women Can Negotiate Better with Catherine Valentine.
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity, and liver your life. Here your hosts Jen and Jill.
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. My name is Jen, my name is Jill, and today we are talking about negotiation, and we do a negotiation negotiation that's a hard word to say, episode every year, whether it's on your salary or negotiating money off because it is the biggest it's one of the biggest impacts you can have with your finances is having the skill of negotiation. But there is a stigma around women negotiating the workplace. Talking with Catherine
about is that a myth? Is it fact? How can we work around it? What are best practices? All that stuff. This is such a good episode.
I find this topic to be so fascinating and it's another one of those ones where I like to have the reminders of how can we do this, how can we hone the skill, how can we do it better? And Catherine brings some really fantastic research and statistics and findings that really help to give us the knowledge that we need so that we can hone the skill set that we need to keep doing this and reminding ourselves that we can do this and it can go successfully.
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Yes, So let's get into this interview with Catherine. She's the CEO of Worth More Strategies, and she helps organizations advance female talent, and she helps women negotiate for more and she is such a who. Love talking to her so much valuable information, hoping and.
Enjoy Let's do it.
Catherine, Welcome to Frugal Friends. We are super excited for this conversation about negotiation.
I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for the opportunity.
This one's so necessary. We've had a couple of conversations about negotiation in the past, but I don't think it can be overstated, especially the unique perspective you're bringing today. I'm looking forward to this. So to kick us off, Catherine, can you tell us specifically related to women in negotiation, what are some of the beliefs that you see we have about this topic that might be outdated or just flat out untrue.
Oh I love this one.
Well, so let's see.
At this point in time, I've reviewed about thirteen thousand pages of like very dense academic research on this, and so my goal here is to be able to make that so concise that you don't have to go read the thirteen thousand pages of academic research on this, Thank you so much. The one that stands out, i'd say there's two. One is this belief that as women were not good negotiators is false. That is false, and that is withheld in the data time after time after time.
That that is false. We are better negotiators than men when negotiating on behalf of others, So on behalf of a team, or children, or elderly parents or anyone else, we consistently get better negotiate outcomes than men. We aren't as successful when negotiating on behalf of ourselves, and that is mostly not because of talent, but because of information. It's because the information that you can get when you google how do I negotiate is largely written for a male audience.
It just doesn't come with that cabyet. So that's what we're going to try and unravel a little bit today, because women should be able to have negotiate outcomes that are just as good, if not better than men, with the right information. The other thing that is kind of I would say like holds women back from negotiating is this fear of backlash, and a lot of times people say, like, oh, that's just in your head. Research would support that that
is not just in your head. Like, that's a real fear, and we can talk about it a little bit if you want to, and where it comes from. But if you feel that, it's because your spidey sense is very well in tuned and it's trying to protect you. And again, like we have solutions to that. But don't let somebody tell you it's just in your head, because chances are it's probably not.
That's sopful good to hear, yeah, because there is, Yeah, the backlash thing. I've heard a lot and a lot more people are being open about how, hey, I tried to negotiate I you know, read the articles. I tried the things, and it didn't work for me, and it actually, maybe sometimes even like put me worse off. So that's really good to hear.
Like, oh, I've lost over this, Like I lost a job doing this wrong, which is why I why I do this now. But like it's very real. And I worked with somebody recently who she negotiated in a way that we wouldn't recommend, and as a result of that, a lot of the backlash we see now is it's not it's very nebulous, right, it's a little harder to
put your fingers on. And so in her case, what happened is instead of she used to do an analysis and present to the executive board, and then after the negotiation, her boss came by and was like, don't worry, I'll present for you now. And so she continues to do the work, but he now stands in front of the executive board. She's not allowed in the room anymore. And again like, it wasn't an explicit conversation, it's just these small things that happen that can you sidetrack you a little bit?
Does the research suggest that there is greater risk for backlash for females with negotiation than there is with males?
Oh, this one, I love this question. So the research on this one I find particularly fascinating. The research suggests that you're at a higher risk of backlash when you're negotiating non gender conforming things. So what that means is that when we see this, men are at a higher risk of backlash when they're negotiating like flexibility, and women are at a higher risk of backlash when they're negotiating more traditional career things like pay or resources. Now, that's
without intervention. Like what we're going to talk about now is their solutions to this. This does not have to.
Be this way.
But if all we had to go off on was what you googled, then that's kind of the situation we find ourselves in.
I think it's helpful to know the launching point, though, and to help normalize maybe some of it, as you said, Spidey senses that we might be feeling, to know there is research to suggest that what you're feeling could be based in some degree of accuracy. That doesn't mean you have to live there, but knowing where we're coming from, what we're at greatest risk for, can be really helpful, and knowing how do we respond.
Then yes, if you need someone who's read thirteen thousand pages of research to tell you you're not crazy, I'm telling you you're not crazy.
That's what it'll take for me.
Yeah, book, yes, books, Okay. So I want to know what are some of these wrong ways to do it that receive backlash or like how did you lose your job negotiating? Like what are these things that we need to be aware of so that we don't experience this? What are the wrong ways?
So the wrong way would be to follow the advice in the Wall Street Journal last year that said just go in and say I deserve to be paid more. It's not a particularly compelling argument, but also that's a really good way to tick someone off, especially if you identify as a woman. What I did in my particular case was I realized on Friday that I had an opportunity to negotiate. I spent the whole weekend, like you know,
buying the books, underlining them whatever. I wrote a script that I have never been accused of underpreparing for something, and I went in on Monday at ten am and tried to negotiate. And I didn't realize it, but I was using an advice that had been perfected by and written for men. Right it's men saying well, this worked for me, it should work for you, like it will
work for you. But one thing that we didn't factor in, especially not ten years ago, is like I don't look like you, and so it's not gonna work that way for me. And what ended up happening was I ended up offending the person that I was negotiating with completely and completely unintentionally, and then being told that I was no longer a culture fit, which, as we know, doesn't go particularly well when you're I was an intern trying to get a job, and so as a result of that,
the internship no longer made sense. And as a result of that, per company protocol, I was escorted out by security, because if anyone you know, chooses to leave or is told to leave the role, they are escorted out by security then deposited onto the sidewalk. Oh, Jen's face is just like.
It's okay.
I survived, yeah and thrived. So so what are the so in twenty twenty four when we're recording this, like, what are these things that are still being told to people to do that are not working?
Yeah, to go in and say I deserve to be paid more like not working it's not effective strategy for anyone. It's particularly not an effective strategy for marginalized groups. If you were to and this is the part that honestly really gets me, like, this is what keeps me up at night. If you were to be a well intentioned and you know, my researchers and women, so let's talk
about that. But a well intentioned woman who wanted to negotiate, and you were to google how do I negotiate the vast majority of the resources that you see are not for you, but they don't come with that caveat right. So it's a little bit like me, I live down the road from Augusta. It's a little bit like going to the Masters and giving all these men golf clubs made for a five foot foot four women and saying
good luck, have a great time. Like that's what we're doing to women in a lot of business areas, but particularly negotiation.
Are you finding then that the tips given to women should be different than the tips given to men, Like one pair of clubs will work for one person, they won't work for another. Like do we kind of have to be aware of our age, our gender? Like what are the factors that you think might play into this?
So the one that I study is gender, And what we've found there is there's sort of three research based solutions that we would suggest. Of the three, all of them are best practice negotiations. It's just that if men do them, they may have slightly higher, slightly better outcomes. If women do them, we get slightly better outcomes and virtually eliminate the risk of backlash because men don't carry that same risk, you know, the benefit to them is not as large.
And is this whether you're negotiating with a male or female supervisor? Is there a difference?
Okay, so, Jen, this is the most popular question I get asked. And I love this because when I started to study it, I expected to have to write two different sort of manuals. If you will, like, this is what you do if you're negotiating with a woman, this is what you do if you negotiate with a man.
What the research shows is that the risk, like what happens, is actually based on how the world perceives us women have biases too, right, and so this is perpetuated by women just as it is perpetuated by men, which means that there's one sort of advice on how you should negotiate based on how you present yourself to the world, regardless of whether you're negotiating with all genders. Frankly, okay, I want to know now, I'm dying to get into it.
What are these strategies then? So for us women we are predominantly female listenership, what are the strategies that would increase our chances of success? If we've talked about the ways that it does doesn't work, what are the ways where it can work for us? So three strategies, And I would say you said your listenership, listenership is predominantly female.
If there are anyone of other genders listening, I would keep listening because chances are you're going to negotiate with a woman at some point in time, and so it's helpful to understand these dynamics. The three things are number one, think holistically, Number two ask relationally, and number three discuss collaboratively. Would it be helpful if I kind of like stepped
into each of those, yeah? Please. So the first one, think holistically is when you're thinking about what to negotiate, I would ask yourself, you know, what would increase my impact, what would reduce my stress, what would bring me joy? It doesn't just have to be one thing. In fact, actually we have a list now of seventy six things that we've seen women successfully negotiate, So there's a very broad spectrum of what you can go after.
Think broadly.
So in many cases, sure you'll want to negotiate for probably some compensation thing, But what else can you ask for that would make a meaningful difference to you? That's the first one. The second one is to ask relationally. So this is based on research out of Harvard showing that if your ask is both legitimate and beneficial, then you can virtually eliminate that risk of backlash. We were talking about what I found, and I don't do coaching anymore, but what I found when I did coaching is that
that's really hard for working people. If we're just so busy thinking about how to do that is like mind boggling, and no one has time for it. So we actually created a formula which is past performance plus future vision plus to ask and then stop talking. So Jiller, Jen, what's something that you want to pretend like we're negotiating.
Oh, I got one.
My mom's trying to get a job in the medical field.
Great, I love this.
Yeah, they want to pay her a very specific amount because that's what they do. This is pay scale, And I'm like, you need to negotiate this.
By the way, I agree, when someone gives you a job offer, they expect you to negotiate most of the time. So what I would say in this case is, there are reasons why they gave your mom that job offer, right, so past performance for her would be just emphasizing those reasons.
So as you know, I have experience in X. I don't know much about this world, but I experienced an X and I believe that I can use that to help us reach our quarterly targets or annual targets or whatever it is that you know is the reason why they're hiring her in order to achieve that. I wanted to talk to you about being paid at the top end of the band because I have never been an average performer. I wanted to talk to you about being
able to attend this training. And I wanted to talk to you about and now I'm just making things up, Jill. But oh and I wanted to talk to you about getting an hour a week with X person for the first few months so that I can get up and running. Right, these are things that compensation is one of them, but other things that will help her be more impactful in the role. And then the next part of the formula would be to ask what do you think and then
we can start to have a conversation. Right, maybe they say, hey, budgets are locked through the end of the year, so we can't do this, but we can do this so that gives your mom then a chance to step in and say, Okay, I understand that you can't quite meet where I would like to be on you know, base salary. Can we make it up with a signing bonus so that I can come start working for you? Okay, Well, now we're having a conversation about other places we could go, right.
Does that make sense? Does that formula make sense?
Oh? Absolutely? Yeah?
Kind of what to come to the table with this kind of blueprint? And I think it says I'm coming with ideas not just to I deserve so give me, but reasons kind of these receipts for why this will be advantageous to all of us. I love that collaborative word that you've described, that this isn't just for me, This isn't just me trying to grab and take, which
never feels good for anybody, even business owners. But to come at it from this perspective, although you haven't gotten to the relational point, but I am kind of like seeing how it's massaging that as well.
Yeah, I have one more question about this point. We in twenty twenty one, we had an interview with Rich Jones and he talked about this concept of bring your receipts, so keeping track of things that you've done for your companies, which is hard for women to just like keep track of our accomplishments in general. So like that's a foundational piece.
But I think what's hard for me to sometimes understand is how my quote unquote receipts are benefiting these parts of the company that I don't fully understand, like your Q one goals, or how do I relate it back to something that's going to peak management's interests, like something that's going to feel like you know, it's a mutual beneficial experience if I don't fully know, especially going into a new job, but I don't fully know what that other side really wants.
What it's a fascinating question. I would say there's two things. One, the job description is a great place to go look and remind yourself of why the company hired you, because why they hired you is typically what that future vision part is. It's because we need to onboard onboard three times as many people as we used to. It's because we need to reduce inventory, it's because we need to
increase sales. Is kind of an easy one, but it's the people that sit in places that aren't necessarily tied directly to revenue, where that job description can be extra helpful, like these are the operational goals that I'm delivering on that help this company run. The second thing I would say is, particularly in the job interview process, it's really helpful to ask that question, Jen, It's important to me that I'm delivering an impact in the way that matters
to the company. Can you help me understand how this ties to larger goals? And the great part about asking that question is one it illustrates to them that you care, but two, it gives you the words that you need when you're negotiating later on.
Yeah, double duty.
Also, I would think in that vein action based promises speak louder than like a percentage or an arbitrary goal number like promise would like I have shown that I can make like x sales calls per hour and YadA YadA like performance and action based would speak louder maybe right.
And to your point, I think what would be even more interesting is I've shown that I can bring in why deals, right, because the number of calls you make is input, not output. Yeah, what is the to your point, quantitative output? If you can quantify it, then we know you're ahead.
Of the game.
And in some roles it's going to be an estimate, and that's okay. Don't let the fact that it's not exactly perfect stop you from saying about ninety percent. Okay, that's fine if that's as much as we can get with the data that we have.
Nice.
What did you want to say about the relational piece, Catherine when it comes to negotiating, because this is something that you know. As I hear you all talking, even what Jen's bringing up, part of me goes to, okay, but if we come with too much data, is that going to feel too aggressive to on the offense and potentially disrupt relationship As much as I hate to say that, because you know, people just want women smiling, and I think that that's worth pushing back against. But also no, yeah,
we could inspire backlash. So how do we bring in the relational piece to tether it?
So the relational piece is just if you that formula, it's there. The kind of underlying current is letting people know what the impact of your actions is on the larger good. And that could be the team, it could be the company, it could be your department, what I learned when I was coaching women is that women were always thinking about what the impact of their actions were on other people. You just get credit here if you say it out loud, like it's already in our brains.
We're just going to say it out loud, and that's going to make everything go more smoothly. Jill. To your point about data, the other thing that I've noticed is it's important that you have your data. It's not necessarily helpful, regardless of your gender, if you overwhelm somebody with it. So you know, hey, I have it here if you want to go through it. But what it's telling me is X, Y and Z. That way, it's not a
tsunami of numbers coming on. Yea makes And then the third step we were talking about here is to discuss collaboratively. Do you want me to go into that one too?
Yeah? Please.
So if you make your ask and then you say what do you think, that's what I call a conversational lollie, which is that now we know it's the other person's turn to say something. The reason why we did this is because we found that in an attempt to make your negotiation partner feel more comfortable, women would actually start negotiating against themselves. So I worked with a woman who said, and I want to talk about working remotely five days a week. I mean I could get it done in four.
You know, I could probably do it in three. And her manager had said nothing the entire time. And so we want to volley it to the other person. And then we're going to start collaboratively deciding how we can
get to where we want to go. And so we're taking the old mindset of a negotiation is you versus me, there's a winner and a loser, and we're throwing it out, and we're taking the new mindset of a negotiation is us versus the problem, and the problem is anything that prevents the employee from delivering their best work at their lowest stress level. It's a problem for the employee. That's a problem for the employer because they're not getting as
much as they could out of you. Right, And so that's kind of now we can do some trade offs. One of my past clients was trying to negotiate being offline at night and had this conversation, you know, what do you think And what she heard back was, well, that giant report that we give to the whole company is do on Friday mornings and it's like, wow, that is a relevant thing, Like, yes, that's great information, that's a great point. Okay, what if I can be offline
at six pm every night except Thursdays? And then her manager was like, yes, I can agree to that. And so now we're just having a conversation where we can be open about what we value and about the information that we have because we have different pieces of information and we can start to trade off amongst those things. So if you think about Jill's mom, I'm sure the first thing that she'll ask for is base pay because we want like that we get comped year on year.
We want that. But if they can't do it, Okay, now what can we trade off on? Can we do a performance bonus? Can we do a signing bonus? Can we do you know this conference that I've really wanted to go to? Where else can we go to find value that actually works for both of us?
Yeah?
So you said there's over like seventy things outside of base pay that people can negotiate for, Like what do you find people have the most success with those peripheral things?
So people tend to have the most success with things that very clearly benefit both parties, and so to the extent that you can show how it benefits both parties, you're winning. I know one story comes to mind of a woman who was negotiating a promotion which isn't outwardly maybe as obvious how that helps both. But she was in sales, and so when she went to a sales meeting with manager on her business card, people didn't believe that she could do what she said she was doing.
They didn't think she had the credibility within the company to do it. And as soon as she got promoted to director, all of a sudden, her conversions tripled because people believed that when they saw director on business card that she could do what she said she was doing, and then they didn't have as many hesitations. And so I think again, when you can draw that direct line of if I'm going to go into sales, I need
to be able to show internal credibility. A director title will help me do that and will help me land more sales. Like now we're on the same page with things. I've had people negotiate IVF benefits. I've had people negotiate car allowances four oh one k stuff a lot of bonuses, raises more people on their teams. So one of the things, and I'm happy to go into this if it's helpful, but there are significant gender gaps in compensation and resourcing outside of just base pay, which is what we talk
about a lot. One of them is that women are generally given team sizes that are anywhere twenty five to forty percent smaller than their male colleagues to get the same work done. And so people on your team might be something that's advantageous to negotiate.
I would have never thought of that. That's exact a list of things for you.
Jin.
Yeah, I mean that's that's crazy because there I have seen so many of my friends in positions where they are doing two people's jobs and very commons all they want is to do one job. Like, so that is interesting.
How can we be how can we start to open our eyes and recognize opportunities for negotiation because it's easy, Yes, you're negotiating a new job offer, or you're negotiating like a promotion, Like, how can we start to keep our eyes open for these mutually beneficial opportunities for negotiation?
So I would say they tend to come. You know, you just mentioned one a job offer. Also, when you've had a huge win, you had more political capital that you can use in this negotiation. So you just landed a giant client, that is a perfect time to negotiate more people on your team to serve that client. Right, those types of things. Another one I would say is when there's been a meaningful shift in the immediate world
around you. So let's say your boss announces they're going to leave, that might be a good time to negotiate, especially if you would like to step into that role, even just in their interim. Let's say that another team member, you know, jen to your point of like people doing two jobs. If a team member leaves, it's a pretty good time for you to negotiate because you can more work is going to get thrown on you. You might as well ask for more resources or more reward to
do that work. For one thing that happens just popping into my mind. One of the things that happens quite a bit is I have people say, well, like now it's not a good time to negotiate because the company is doing layoffs. It's not necessarily true because if the company has laid off your boss, your chances are at least fifty percent ish less expensive than your boss. So if going to ask you to do your boss's job, doing it, you know you get a twenty percent raise,
the company is still saving a ton of money. So there's different ways to think about things like that. The one I would say is a common misconception is people
think that annual reviews is the time to negotiate. Please hear me when I say this, That is not the time to negotiate because by the time annual reviews have rolled around, if you walk into your annual review and you ask your boss for something and you surprise them, in a lot of situations, they're not in a place where they can say yes, because most companies end up front running all of that by making budgets do three
months before annual reviews. So your boss is in a position where inherently they have to say, I don't have the authority to make that decision right now. Let's talk again in six months. And so what we always encourage people to do is think of your schedule a mid year check in and think of it as if it were your annual review. Hey, I want to talk to you about this promotion, and then if they say no, you say, well, what do I need to demonstrate to
prove that I'm ready for that? By the time annual reviews rolls around, they'll give you two or three things you need to do. You go do them, and then when annual reviews rolls around, they already know you're going to ask for it, so they already budgeted for it. It just makes it you're speeding up the cycle. It makes it a lot easier to get a yes in that conversation.
Do you have any specific tips for people who work in some traditionally it feels very gridlocked in the way you move through.
Professional growth.
I'm thinking teachers and nurses at these very large establishments where it literally is no. At your tenth year you receive a three percent and then from there it's er point zero five percent, and it seems to just be related to the time that you've been here, maybe the degree of education that you have, and that's it your cog in the wheel, like is I talked to so many people in these spaces and they feel so deflated by conversations about negotiation because they're like, yeah, that's great
for everyone else, it's not for me though, what would you say to that?
One hundred percent? So I was a teacher. I only made it for a year. Turns out it wasn't that good at it. But I know what you mean, Like, I know what you mean about this. You know, maybe it doesn't feel like there's as much wiggle room. What I've seen people effectively do in that situation is really think creatively about what they can ask for. So when I was a first year teacher, I knew I couldn't
negotiate my salary. Or maybe I could, but I was under the impression I could not, And so what I negotiated was more time with the lead teacher because I knew that if she was in my classroom more, it was going to make me better, faster, and that was going to save me time. So I wasn't going to be working as many nights and weekends because an hour from her was worth ten of my hours just in terms of knowledge. Right, So what else can you negotiate?
Are you pregnant and the walk from the parking lot beyond the parking lot is kicking your butt? Okay? Well, can you negotiate to have a parking space towards the front for a little while. Can you negotiate, I mean, to your point sometimes that pay is associated with education. Can you negotiate that they will sponsor you for an education program. Can you negotiate to have a little bit lighter of a teaching load so that you can do
get your masters in whatever? Can you negotiate that they will recommend you for X, Y and Z fellowship all of those things. I've even had women negotiate to like you be the teacher that speaks at the conference, because then that allows them to go to the conference for free. There are things like that that I think you absolutely can negotiate. It's really just you have to get more creative, I think than some of us in business sing to be.
Yeah, I think recognizing that there's plenty of non monetary opportunities to negotiate. It's it doesn't always just have to associate with the raise. Sometimes it is flexibility, resource training, that sort of a thing. I know we're talking a lot about kind of negotiation within a job, and a lot of this has to do with maybe working in the more corporate or business world. But to throw a curveball at you, I'm curious if you've got any other
thoughts on the types of opportunities to negotiate. Maybe for our people who might own their own small businesses or they're not working at all, they're just kind of looking for opportunities to strengthen their negotiation skills, Like, where else can we be aware of opportunities to negotiate?
Well, let me take those two groups separately. Okay, So for entrepreneurs, we have an opportunity to negotiate anytime we're in front of a client or a vendor. As a thought, one of the best negotiation things I've done as an entrepreneurs, I set up a board of advisors. A board of directors is a legal entity. You need lawyers and blah blah. A board of advisors is not. My board of advisors were two mentors that I adored and I like to
spend time with. But also it meant that I was when I was negotiating with really big clients, I could say, ooh, that's a lot less than we've typically charged. I'm going to have to put that one in front of my board of advisors. And then a lot of times I could come back and say, like, the board of advisors isn't liking X Y, and Z and I don't think they're going to approve it. Can we work on this? Right, So it gave us sort of a common enemy, but it also allowed me to be a little bit protected
because I was new at this. I didn't know what I was doing for other folks who want to negotiate in other ways. I mean, the great thing about negotiation is that happens to you all day long. Right, So you go to dinner, you order a glass of wine, you actually don't like how it tastes. That's a negotiation. Now, how do we send that back and get something else that you do? Like you go to hotel, they put you next to an elevator on a floor where there is a field trip. How do we negotiate our way
out of that? Right, anytime you're feeling less than satisfied, Like, anytime you feel that feeling, I think it's a good opportunity to say, Okay, what about this? Can I negotiate? Because chances are you influence and control a lot more than we originally assume.
I love that because so often we will just kind of like grit our teeth and bear things and then be bitter about it. But by just positioning ourselves changing our mindset to let me exercise this power that I have. The worst I can get as a no, but with the skills to do it well, I'll get more yes is more often well.
And Jen, the great part about what you just said is if you negotiate in this way, the worst that will happen is actually a no. It's not hey, we're going to escort you out by security. It's not hey, we're going to take away your opportunities. It's not any of these things, right, It's actually just a no. And that's okay. When it's a no that doesn't come with backlash, that's fine. Everyone does this whole like women are scared
of no things. Darn right we are. And there's a reason why, which which is that for us, it historically hasn't just been a no. It's been a no with other repercussions. And so in this world we canna let it just be another fact of our day.
You know, you know what else, facts of the day is a fact of my day.
We don't have to be worried about it.
I don't like it.
The bill of the week, that's right, It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby was born and his name is Williams. Maybe you've paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died, and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. That bills Buffalo bills, Bill Clion, this is the bill of the.
Week, Catherine. Every week we invite our listeners and our guests to share with us their esteemed bill of the week, and we would love to hear yours today.
Mine's very embarrassing. I was delighted to pay a bill for a tree branch removal because I have been going down the rabbit hole on your past podcast, and it made me think about the things that I was paying for that I felt like I might be paying too much for. And it turns out I was paying too much for homeowner's insurance. I was paying two times as much as I needed to because of this one tree branch.
So once I get the tree branch down, I qualify for a different package that's the same coverage but half the price. So wow, I'm excited to pay for that tree branch because it's gonna save me a lot of money.
And how did you find out it was the tree branch that was increasing your rate so highly?
So I now it's gonna get Now I'm getting very nerty. Okay. So I went into the bills that I was and I sorted them for the most expensive, and I just started calling and I started the most expensive and made my way down the list. And when I called the most expensive, she was like, oh gosh, this is very expensive. This was my insurance person, like the insurance carrier. And I was like, yeah, can you tell me why? And she goes, oh, well, the drone report from three years
ago shows that you have overhanging structure. And I was like, I don't even don't report. I know this is so I know. And so she sent me a picture of the drone report and it looks like there is a tree growing out of the middle of my house, like you can barely see the house, whereas in real life
the tree is very high up. It just has a lot of leaves, but it's not a particularly heavy thing, and so we could get it removed without damaging the tree relatively and expensively because it was mostly apparently it's a tertiary branch. I've learned a lot about trees.
Yes, you've become a barbarous and an insurance negotiator.
And adjuster and wow so much so thanks for me for that.
Yeah, yeah, that's kind of all wrapped up in a tip for us as well, just to be able to look into I mean, even just call your insurance provider. What are the factors playing into this pricing? Are there things that I could do to lower this rate?
Man?
You could find out there's been drone footage to take it up your place.
Apparently we were also paying, if you want to get real nerdy, we were also paying hundreds a couple hundred dollars a year in unensured rider motorist something, which when I asked, I was like, what is that? And she's like, it's in case someone's in your car that's not in your family and you get an accident and that person is uninsured and the person you get an accent with is uninsured. I was like, well, that feels like a lot of bands, too.
Many bands, and no.
One's said in my car. That's what I've decided. I'm not just me. That's amazing.
Sound like something you need in Florida a car. Actual, Now that I'm saying it out loud, I'm like, yeah, yeah, we hope that that's a Florida Insurance.
If you all listening have a bill that you want to share, if it's about lowering a bill, if it's about becoming some sort of expert in biology or any other of the sciences, or you're just Bill hanging out and you want to tell us what life is like.
We'd love to hear from you.
Frugal Friends podcast dot com, slash Bill and now it's time for.
All Right, now we will share all the same question. We will answer what's your most successful negotiation? And maybe it's traditional, maybe it's a little non traditional. I don't know, Catherine, what would you deem is your most successful negotiation?
I negotiated eighteen percent off my beloved home. I love my house. I love love my house, and that was a nice chunky savings that made it possible for us to live here.
Wow, that's it.
Now you got me thinking of all the things that I've negotiated that I love.
Right, that's a.
Good feeling where you're like, I can't have that. Oh wait, if I think creatively, I can.
Yes, creatively, Like that's I think that's the key word, is think creatively.
You've probably negotiated on so much too. I mean goodness, it's what you're an expert on. But when you can negotiate something of such high value that eighteen percent is a massive amount of money, it sounds like, not only do you love your house, but you have freed yourself up in a lot of ways financially to do more things that.
You one was a good lesson that we don't all value the same things, right. So for the people that were leaving, money was important, but actually the most important thing for them was flexibility because they were balancing buying another home and two kids in school and when school ended, and when they could move, and when their elderly parents
were okay like all of these things. And so us saying hey, we'll close anytime in a six month window, we'll move anytime six months after that, you tell us, was worth a lot of money to them, which was great because we had a lot more time than we had money.
Yeah, oh that I love that.
Ye I was going to ask what got that eighteen percent? But yeah, that's amazing, Jill.
What about for you?
Jen?
Oh?
Oh, how you go?
First?
We do negotiate on a lot of things over here, I would say our most recent I'll go I'll go less high monetary impact to We ran into a situation on vacation recently where our room was not what we expected it to be, and it did cost me a ton of time to try and go back and forth with the third party that we booked through and the people on site at the resort themselves.
But by the end of it.
We walked away with one of the best rooms with a swim up pool plus two hundred dollars travel credit.
Because I wouldn't quit. I felt more like a fight than a negotiation, but it is what happened.
I remain calm, cool and collected the whole time. I'm learning, I'm learning to be relational. I was collaborative in the sense that I did not leave them. They wanted me to go elsewhere on the property to be making my phone calls, and I was like, no, it's going to happen right here. It should all happen right in front of you, and this will also be your problem, so we'll have to collaboratively find the solution because now it's.
Our Catherine, but it is a problem.
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
I will work on the problem too, but so will you?
All right, John, Okay, so I have so many instances. So like I'm now thinking our first home purchase, we had to we literally had like three weeks to get the down payment, and we just didn't have the money. So we negotiated that they'll pay the closing costs and will just increase the amount that we pay for the house by five thousand, so that you know we're paying for it, but like to the mortgage company, you know. So that was something that allowed us to get our
first home, or in that home was a dream. In my last like nine to five job, I negotiated for an increased base pay, but I would also negotiate. I would ask for conference, Like there was a conference I was already going to, was already paying my way, but there was a there was a conference on the front end of it. So I had them pay for me to go to that extra conference. And it was easy, yes, because it's very aligned with you know, helping that website's like content, and I would already be there.
Oh, Jen, what are we saying? We played good cop bad cop all the time. To your point, Catherine about having a board of advisors, that I would say is the benefit of having a business partner. And the books deal we got an incredible book deal because we can be just stone faced and ask for more and more and more. But now we've blocked ourselves into corner by what youlovebook dot com because we negotiated such a good deal that now we got to sell this book.
It's another us it's too high.
But I was actually I thought you would bring up our very last negotiation that we're negotiating with a advertiser like advertising network. We've done this twice for a higher percentage of the REV share, so there's a standard revshare, and we just asked for a little bit bigger piece of the pie and both times they said yes, we're two for two.
Well, and that's intually one because the bigger you make the pie, the better is for both of you, even if you're getting a little bit more of it.
And that was our thing. It's like, we're we put in the work to grow, so give us a little more so that we don't have to do other things to make money and we can focus on this and we both win.
How that was the perfect relational ask.
Wow, we're learning, we encover.
We'll want to learn more from you because you've got so many great tips.
Tell us where they can find you.
Thank you so much for this has just been such
obligement to come on and talk to you. For anyone who you know, if you want to get that resource that seventy six things we were talking about, We've made that free to everyone, so you can just go to seventy six things dot com and you can download the list there and then I make you know, most of the money to do this research is through speaking, so if you're part of a women's organization who needs a speaker, you know, negotiating is one thing that we do, networkings another.
Please keep me in mind it really helps us get this research to more women by being able to be part of those conversations.
Awesome, Thanks so much Catherine for being here.
Thank you.
I very much look forward to looking at that list of seventy five things to negotiate. Even though I can't negotiate anything else from Jill for our job, I really hope that maybe I can take this and in the future, if the book does well, Jill will let me negotiate for maybe a few more benefits in the company.
Yeah wow, Okay, I didn't realize that we needed these skill sets with one another. Although yeah, no, that is true. We have negotiated with one another. I don't know how you could be in business for this long and not get to that point. But I like it best when you and I get to combine forces and negotiate with outside entities.
That's very fun for me. When we get to.
Sometimes be good cop bad cop.
Yes, that's a great thing about having a businsiness partner is playing good bad cop. But I love Catherine's idea having a board of advisors, like.
Yeah, brilliant.
Nobody needs to know who your board of advisors is. That is so official sounding, sounds so good. It doesn't like the scaries like league like lawyers do. I will be taking that one for sure.
I mean, we don't advocate for lying. Definitely have people in mind who are your board of advisors? But yeah, that can buy you some time I got to talk to It helps me to say I have to talk to my business partner about that, or I got to talk to my spouse, and just more time to even think through what do I want here?
How do I want to leverage it?
Anyways, thanks everyone for listening. We just love hanging out with you, and we also love reading your very kind reviews, like this one from Jenna D thirteen titled the Best It Is five stars.
You knew that already.
I love listening to Jen and Jill and Jen. Oh wow, she got you first. I know. I love listening to Jill and Jen. I also live in Florida and my name is Jenna, so I feel like I fit right in. Yes, you do. They make seeing frugal sounds so doable and even fun.
That's the goal.
When I think I know all the budgeting tips, I learn new ones. My husband and I have made so many changes because of the tips I've learned from listening to this podcast, including switching our savings account to a high yield savings account, starting a roth Ira. Thank you so much, guys.
Ps.
I listen on Spotify, but I helnloaded Apple Podcasts to write this review. Happy early one thousand, meaning one thousand reviews, because that was a goal of ours a couple months ago.
Yes, Jenna, thank you. You can also leave reviews on Spotify's that's two. But I mean I did really want to get to a thousand on Apple podcasts, and you all pulled through. You pulled up and pulled through, So I thank you, Thank you for listening thank you for leaving a review. And if you haven't left a review, if you're listening to this, we would love to hear what you think about the show. If it's positive. If it's not nice, uh, then this show is called how
to Money. But I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
We love Joel and.
Yeah, leave nice things on there. Yeah, but take a minute to leave rating, a nice rating and review on our show and their show. It helps potential new listeners know what the show is all about.
Bye.
Grugal Friends is produced by Eric.
Sirianni Okay Jen update for you on my Florida, Florida life.
So you're Florida life. Yeah, right, I killed a cockroach with my book this morning.
I killed a cockroach last night with a shoe. That's that's just that's just normal living. This is this is this is this is next level. You've heard about the chickens, right, It's about the chickens. And we figured out that we believe that our neighbors own them because the one day I went outside trying to figure out where are these chickens going?
Who owns these?
And they were in our chicken who were in our neighbor's yard like fenced in like there they are, didn't have to walk far. Uh, that's that's who owns them. Well, we were just away for the weekend and came back and the mulch in our front y'alld like around our garden beds up against the house was just strewn about like a like a big windstorm kind of came through and pushed all of the stuff up onto the sidewalk. Either that or some sort of medium sized animal. I
wasn't quite sure. Eric looked back on the security cameras and it was the chickens. I was thinking maybe it was coyote or something, or fox or who knows what.
So this was on the side of your fence, it's right, yeah, not in our fence the yard.
It was just in our front yard because we haven't.
Because chickens can jump over fence.
Oh yes, we saw it in their backyard. So we were just assuming, Okay, it's theirs. They must be bringing the chickens into the yard at night. That's how they're surviving through the night. I don't know, but they're just roaming and they're coming over to our property and digging. These little are just digging, throwing avaches, and now every single day they've been coming over and digging in the mulch, and Eric and I don't know what to do about it.
Like part of it's like, Okay, you're probably eating the cockroaches and mosquitos, so that's probably good, but also you're making a mess. And we had put down landscaping carpet before we put down the mulch, and has really helped with weeds and stuff. But now they're digging down into the carpet level. So now we're just getting like carpet
strewn about. And so Eric took a picture of it and sent it to the neighbor, asking it are these your chickens, just to kind of be like, okay, maybe your chicken should get back into your yard, but also so that you know that they're in our yard.
And they responded no.
So we don't know whose chickens these are, but they are you can have it on our house. So now I have this dilemma of Okay, do I keep hunting and assuming that it's somebody else is on our road, but that just I don't think it is, because every morning I hear it kaka do doodling outside of my window. Which yeah, there's no other houses other than the person that we texted, or do I say, you know what, these are mine now then and I just create a coop in the backyard and at least get to enjoy
the eggs. But there's also a research so I don't know.
That's scary.
Wow, I I don't know.
I don't know how to help you. It's a Florida dilemma.
It is a Florida dilemma.
Some people have guests that maybe people, because we do live like right on a nature preserve, that maybe locals did have it they were told that they can't have them and just came and dropped them off in the park, which could be possible.
M yeah, mmm, I guess I put.
At all like animal control. But but what if it is somebody's chickens, or what if the neighbor's lying to us? What if what if they are the neighbors chickens but they didn't want us to get mad about it, so they said no.
They would not lie to you.
Yeah, I don't know.
Well, if anybody has like chicken rightes, uh knowledge, let us know.
They are surviving if there if they are indeed wild chickens, their survival skills are insane because we do chickens and foxes chicken.
I mean, yeah, I guess these chickens in particular might be a little more insane, but gosh, on the level of an in sanity goes dolphins chickens.
Yeah, chickens are not nearly as smart as dolphins.
Though, No, but they are way more savage.
So true.