How to Negotiate a Higher Salary in Any Field with Mandi Woodruff-Santos

your life. If anything, is going to change your mindset, and then eventually you will change your life. So mandatory listener, required listening. There will be a test at the end, and that test is you negotiating for more pay and reporting back that you have won your negotiations. Amen. Amen. So we are really excited to get into this with Mandy because negotiating is something that we we don't just do for our salaries. We negotiate prices on Facebook marketplace,

we negotiate deals in self employment. We negotiate a lot of things and it starts here. So the more you negotiate, this is a skill that you have to get better at. So don't say I'm not a good negotiator. Don't say I'm in a field that can't be negotiated. Uh listen, say try saying that at the end of this episode. Yeah, or maybe that that could be your mindset now and especially this is for you if that's what you're thinking

and hear me out. I come from the field of social work, have lots of teacher friends like your traditional fields where you think there's not much room to increase to be able to negotiate, And Mandy gave me more food for thought and things to consider and really challenged and push back on some of that mindset that we all need to hear. So yeah, let's do it. Yeah, but first, this episode is brought to you by Mariah Carey. Thanks Maria, because all I want for Christmas is for

you to join us on Patreon. By supporting us on Patreon for five dollars a month, you get to buy me a Starbucks latte every month and not Jill, I'll save that money. Yeah, and you get priority placement for Bill of the Week. You get a bonus member episode every month where you can ask us questions like what Jen hates most about pregnancy or why Jill puts a arugla in her smoothies. So if these are things that sound interesting to you, please support us on Patreon. Join

the Fun Frugal Friends podcast dot com slash Patreon. Here's just a freebie whether or not you're in the Patreon. I didn't intentionally put a arugula in the smoothie, and I might stop doing that now because it really took over. That flavor really took over. Ye heard about it, that spring mix might not be the way to go. So that is what we do in the Patreon. It's a

lot of fun. And if you're here UH and you are interested in increasing your income, we don't actually have any other like Salary based episodes is our first one, so again required listening, very excited. But if you're looking to increase your income, we've got our Frugal side Hustle series UH, and we have just episodes on starting a side business. We've got episode two fifty two how to make more Money with a side Business UH, and then episode to forty two Digital Products with Alie die Up.

That one's really good, so definitely check out some of our other episodes on increasing your income after you listen to this one. Yes, order, queue up always more. Absolutely so. Mandy needs no introduction. You probably know her as the award winning co host of the Brown Ambition podcast, but she is also the founder of The Mandy Moneymakers, which is her leadership and career coaching community for women of color.

She has been featured on The Dr Phil Show, The New York Times, CNBC, CNN, a bunch of other places, and for good reasons. She is an expert at what she talks about and we are excited to share this interview with you. Now it's not waste another manic Mandy, Mandy, welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. We are super excited to talk about the subject, and we're super excited to talk about it with you. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Oh such an important topic. Well, we'll tell our individual stories, I'm sure throughout and got a special lightning round and all of that. But just to jump in, Mandy, can you tell us a little bit about your career, how you began, like first job stuff and what it taught you about salary negotiation kind of like take us on that journey if you will. Yeah. Sure, So my first you know, big girl job after college, I got a job. I studied journalism. I studied print journalism, which was real,

real smart. I graduated in two thousand and nine when the industry was dying, well it wasn't dying, but it was at this huge transition point and print in general was never going to be the same. And I got a job. I was lucky to get a job in newspapers, writing for print. And about a week or maybe even the same week that I started that job, I got an email from a magazine that I had interned at UH during college and they were looking for basically a fact checker and it was a job in New York City.

And that was my first time really having that career, sort of like a crossroads where I was figuring out, am I gonna quit after just I just joined this job, and I feel so grateful and as a recession, am I really going to do this? And I ended up coming to my senses and taking that job in New York because I did actually really want a career in magazines and it was New York and I'm from Georgia, and you know, Atlanta is hot now, but it was not it in two thousand and nine when it came

to journalism, jobs. So that was my first time with like a big quit, and I did not negotiate that first time. I was just so happy. It was maybe a fifteen thousand dollars more than what I was making. But you know, recently I went back to my emails from those early days. I'm working on a book, and I was like trying to go back and put myself in the shoes of what I was feeling. And thank goodness, I wrote a lot of emails back then. It was

like before texting became huge. And I didn't negotiate, but I realized I didn't have to because I was in touch with the woman who referred me. She was the one leaving the job, and she was so sweet. She made sure I knew what to ask for. She was like, you need to ask for forty five that's the budget for the role. And she really helped me in that sense, and I was flung into the real world and left to my own devices. From there, I very quickly fell on my butt. That job that I thought was my

dream job. I ended up getting laid off from just three months later, and I was back on the job market, really struggling. I barely had any savings since I've only been working for a few months, and I was lucky to get another job opportunity, and this time it was a huge pay. It was a huge downgrade. I was went from making forty five K to thirty five K. Got the offer, googled to see how to negotiate. Should

I negotiate kind of like, asked my uncle. Everyone's got that like smart, I don't know the one who seems savvy in your family that you call up for advice. And he was like, yeah, I asked for more, and everyone was like, yeah, women don't ask for more, so just ask for more. And so I did and I heard nope, nope. And then I learned in that moment that just asking really isn't the only thing that matters.

Plucking up your courage to ask is important, But if you don't have leverage, if you don't if your value isn't clear to the company you're applying to, you're more than likely gonna hear no. And so that was a real pivotal moment for me and a lesson that if I want to be successful negotiating and making up you know, this lost ground because I took a huge pay cut. You know, I was going to have to work really hard to prove my value. And from there I got what.

I had cracked the code of getting over that fear of asking. But from there I had to figure out, Okay, how do I get to a position where they are so blown away by me and want me on their team that they're going to say yes, what I negotiate? Oh, Mandy, this is so so helpful. And I feel as though, is that kind of missing puzzle piece to this whole negotiation topic. And I hear it a lot from my husband.

He works in some kind of like tech space to some degree and and is responsible for hiring, and I hear this from him a lot, like all these people are just asking for massive salaries, but they're not showing me what they can do. And you've just verbalized it in a way that makes so much sense that it

needs to be connected to something. It doesn't mean that we have to have decades of experience, but an ability to show And here's why not just because we live in a world where everybody's asking for more, Like okay, yeah, so everyone's just asking for more, So what what sets you apart? And and yeah, I'm excited to hear your feedback on kind of how we do that, how we show that. Yeah. Absolutely, I actually developed a five step method for negotiating that has nothing to do with sitting

at the negotiating table and saying stuff. Everyone thinks that that's when the negotiation happens. It's like when you get an offer in your hands and then you go back and forth, and all those like tropes of negotiating, like the firm handshake and having those masculine tendencies and you know, playing hardball and having a poker face, like all those sort of like masculine analogies started to come out, and

for me, it's just nothing like that. And especially because most of my the people I work with, our women of color, and the rules are just a little bit different for us, you know, in general when we walk into a negotiation, and based on my career, you know, over the course of a decade, when I started to finally get it how to show my impact and actually bring excellence to the table and you know, of course learn how to be a better negotiator, but also create

a career that was attracting me to or attracting opportunities to me that were juicy that could pay me that we're exciting, that really wanted to have me. And I got more and more successful at negotiating. I was able to ten x my income from thirty K to over three K and just a decade, going from that girl who got laid off from a magazine job to then

negotiating you know, multi six figure compensation packages. And it's from not just learning how to negotiate, but all these steps that I sort of break down and what I call the Maker method. And I teach this method in a free negotiating masterclass um once in a while. I just did one last night actually, and I it's so fine. Yeah, but and and it blows people's mind because I know people come to me and they want me to like tell them the secret sauce to negotiating more and my

secret sauce is just different. I I really fundamentally understand because I've been on both sides as someone who's been the negotiator, like as a job candidate and also as a hiring manager myself, like your husband. I was a senior director and I was hiring you know, dozens of roles over the course of like five years when I was working in fintech and I know what it's like to be on the other side and to be asking

for more budget. You know, to negotiate with people, and what makes the people who are successful at negotiating successful And it really comes back to they have to really want to hire you. They have to be excited about you, because it takes time and effort to like go ask for more money to get additional approvals from HR or other senior leaders at your company to free up more budget for someone they want to They have to fight

for you. They have to want to fight for you, and a lot of people, I would say aren't spending enough time creating a strong professional brand that makes companies really excited to work with them. And of course that starts with like great work product, but it's also getting your work seen and heard internally at your company and also externally so that recruiters and hiring managers can find you and they're coming to poach you, versus you always

being the one applying for jobs. I do find that when you are the one being poached, you just have more leverage to start with because they have come to you, tapped you on the shoulder, and they're like, we want you, and you go into that negotiation a lot stronger. You know, that is such an interesting concept. And think something I didn't like think about is like being poached, Like how do you put yourself in a position to get there?

I'm really good at it, I have been. Uh yeah, the secret is you have to be really easy to be found. I talked to you about this earlier. So and maybe it's because I I was in a field where, you know, I was a journalist, so my name was on my work and it was already, you know, a little bit out there. But I had to become more and more comfortable sharing my work product and getting noticed. So and poaching was such an important pivotal part of

my negotiating story too. And how I ten next my salary because over the course of ten years I did quit jobs six times and exponentially increase my income with each quit because I was always doing it strategically and able to negotiate more. But I only applied for one of those jobs those six times. The other five times they came to me, and it was such an important part,

like I said, of giving myself stronger leverage. Point. So the reason you want to be poached A couple of things one like it makes it less of a burden on you to go out there and be applying for jobs and like throwing spaghetti at the wall to see

what sticks. If you focus on creating great work, creating a good reputation internally at your company, just being a good employee, being kind to your colleagues because you never know where they're going to end up, and then actually being someone who shares your work so that can easily be sharing on LinkedIn. I know for a lot of my my clients and the people in my community, it can be kind of a hump to get over bragging

about yourself. It's seen as like, I don't know self promotion and oh it's social media and it's so cringe. But I'm not talking about posting a thirst trap on i G. I'm talking about like thing about it. No, I like, maybe that's for you, but some people know. But LinkedIn is so incredibly powerful and I was an early adopter of LinkedIn, and all those job interviews that I got, they either came from LinkedIn, someone who found

me on LinkedIn, got my email from LinkedIn. So you have to be able to be found by the people who have the power to hire you. And the reality is that very much today, like the majority of recruiters are finding candidates through LinkedIn, and the juiciest job offers, the juiciest job opportunities. They're recruiting for those roles before they even posted online. So if you really want to be in the running for the best job opportunities, you need to be poachable, like you need to be found.

And when they find your profile on LinkedIn, what are they going to see? Is it going to be a ghost town? You know? Are you going to have your key accomplishments there? Are you going to be clear about who you are and what you offer and how you can be the solution to their problem? You know, really taking some time. It's not something you need to do every day. It's like kind of a set and forgod thing.

Just update your LinkedIn, make sure it has your key accomplishments here, key skills like where you're working now, so that recruiters can find you. And when you get poached, it does give you that extra bit of leverage because they are coming to you and they know they have to woo you. They know they have to entice you to come to them because you're gainfully employed already, right, Yeah, LinkedIn does seem to be the spot just kind of

regularly updating that there's so much that happens there. I mean, yeah, it's a it's a networking tool, and it really does create some amazing networking opportunities and job opportunities. Do you find, Mandy, are there particular fields that you're more likely to be poached within? Like what kinds of fields? Are we primarily

talking all of them? I mean, the women in my Mandy moneymakers community, they range from school teachers to you know, vps at big tech companies, and I see them getting posted all the time, like they work in government jobs. They work for city government, federal government, for the private sector, for the nonprofit sector. It happens in every industry, so no one gets a free pass. The potential is truly there. And it's because recruiters, like they're busy, they want to

find the best fit for a job. And there's really no better place to source candidates now unless you're you know, using a talent agency or like a recruitment agency then linked In, And especially for like as a hiring manager myself, even though I had a recruiting team that I could use, I still like I knew better than anyone else what kind of person I was looking for, and I was on LinkedIn just as much as they were trying to

find them. So I do believe LinkedIn is bay. That being said, it's not the only lever that you can pull when it comes to getting noticed and getting poached. You just want to show up where your next employer is hanging out, so that may be a professional conference. Like Jen, I met you at finn Con. I didn't know I was going to meet you, but I thought, hey, I'm starting I have this new business that I've started in the past year and a half. I kind of

want to reintroduce myself to the finncom community. I'm just gonna go and hang out and I'm sure, you know, making connections there, maybe we'll lead to some opportunities. I didn't know what they were, but hey, you have a podcast. We met and then you invited me to come on the show. So why don't you put yourself out there and go to an industry conference if that's where people that you want to get in front of our hanging out.

If it's not a conference, maybe it's a particular networking group or it's events, you know, like one day events that are being held in your industry. We're going to like those small networking communities that maybe you get through work, like an employee resource group or something like that, but put yourself in a position where you can be noticed by people who could potentially hire you. Yeah, we think a lot of these are like reserved for entrepreneurs, but

there are. There's a lot of benefit if, even if you don't want to be self employed, to be more gainfully employed by attending these things, for sure. Yeah. And I'm hey, I'm an introvert, like hardcore, so I don't and I and I always say that because the first thing people say, they're like, especially when I talk about putting yourself out there on LinkedIn or going to a conference, they're like, oh, I'm an introvert. It's hard. Oh, come on, Like you can put yourself out of your comfort zone

and get it done. I mean, what's the I feel like the downside the cons just outweigh the pros. The con is that maybe you'll be a little uncomfortable, it'll be a little awkward, you know, it'll take some practice for you to get comfortable being there. But the pro, oh is that you could wind up with such a great opportunity that's going to not just pay you more, but value you more, give you room for growth. There's

too many upsides, you know. Yeah, I know. I'm an introvert to and I think the reason I talked to you is because you wrote an article that I really appreciated and I think, well, we should talk about it in a little bit, but about you, like you being a hiring manager and fighting for an employee of yours, and I thought it was like fantastic, and that's and then I just like I had to sit down because I was pregnant, and that's how we that's how we got to where we are today. I just had to

sit down next to you. I know that. Yeah, it's encouraging, and I think highlighting the mindset shift necessary in this whole space, because my mind did go to Okay, yeah, this sounds great for people in the tech space or corporate space or business people. I'm accustomed to the field of social work or the circle's I run in, or a lot of teachers, and I know that there's more options than what I think meets the eye or what

we're kind of told or boxed into. But when it comes to poaching, Like, I don't think I have ever heard of a teacher getting poached, but maybe it happens. But what you're saying is if we put ourselves out there more and more, like there are certainly, as I'm hearing you talk, I'm like, yeah, there are conferences for teachers. Yeah, there are things teachers do that are outside of the classroom. Yes, there are ways for social workers to move up in

their skill set and ability to earn more money. So I think it's it's more so the mindset shift than it is kind of getting locked into this is what this field looks like, and we don't have access to any of the other things that other people have access to. I mean, maybe the earning potential overall might be a little bit less than the text space or some of these other higher earning maybe, but there's still opportunity to grow within them. I think that's what's being highlighted, Like

there are still these opportunes. You can still be on LinkedIn, you can still be going to conferences and learning more about the ways that you can take the next step in your career and find the things that you're more um, yeah, passionate, about So it's it's just encouraging, and that's what I'm highlighting for everybody, because I know we've got people listening who are not in your high earning potential fields, and yet there's still opportunities which told they're not higher any

potential fields. It's funny because I have a lot of um. I mean, I told I work with so many different people from different backgrounds. It's such a privilege. I love getting to talk to so many different women every day, social work, nonprofit workers, school teachers, higher education workers, and in this I don't know how to bundle that group into one category, but I would definitely say it's it's a group of careers and industries and specialties that have

just been so undervalued. And it's almost like that that's based rely eyes upon the largely women who occupy those those roles. I don't think we can both agree that's usually women in those fields are dominating. It almost relies upon us not believing that we have more opportunity and that we have potential to be earning more so that we stay stuck and we stay where we are. But I've just seen it when I when I talked to women, I really work on the mindset of really, who told

you that you can't get poached? And who told you that there's maybe not another school that would pay you more and be a better environment for you to work at. And often it's just a story we tell ourselves, and because we believe it, we just start to like make that we start to believe it and talk amongst ourselves and we're all kind of sharing that same mentality and it's like this misery stut where we're all just like

staying stuck. But really, if you if you keep poking, which I do, and as a coach, just like, but who said that? Is there? Is there? Like a stat is there a um? There was there a speech given by the president of school Teachers. I don't know, but like where does that come from? And when I challenge that, you start to see them start to realize you can create a different story for yourself. You really can. And take school teachers for example, I have a woman named

Wrenna Warrenna who's in my NNDY Moneymaker's community. She's a school teacher in the d m V area, and she really wanted to break into tech and she has been finding scholarships to attend an AFRO tech conference, which is this largely black employee focused tech conference that pops up in different cities, and she's putting herself in these spaces and getting these cool opportunities. She found a scholarship, you know, and she found people who wanted to sponsor her, and

she's well on her way. And at the same time, while she's working on her transition into tech, she also quit her job as a school teacher and found another district that was more conducive to what she needed and that paid her more. You know. So I teachers can job hop just like anyone else. And also just really quickly about poaching. Maybe there's this perception that when I say poach, I mean like a recruiter or the senior executive at a company from on high is looking through

LinkedIn and selecting people. But it doesn't always work out that way. Like the people sitting next to you can poach you. So the woman who I used to work with as an intern, you know, she technically poached me for that job at that magazine because she remembered me. She reached out. She was like, I like you, I want to put you up for this role that to

me is poaching too. So when teachers work amongst each other and you get to know teachers and other districts, other states, Like I just had a good friend of mine here in New York. She's a principal in the city. Friend of hers was an assistant principal at another school further away and was like, I really want to work with you. They have a job opening up. Come and she got that job. So like it happens even in the education space and don't want folks, I think it doesn't.

Thank you, Mandy. So then when it comes to so even beyond poaching, our own negotiations, what advice do you have for people, like avoid it backfiring on us? Because we have heard those stories of like trying for something and then not only not getting it, but potentially like not getting the job at all. What to do if it does backfire? What stories have you heard? How many? Where are they? I feel like whenever people say that, I'm like, when I asked for what story, it's like,

maybe it was just one. It was like a friend of a friend of someone who saw it on the internet, Like, yeah, they're out there. It's mostly when they're trying to change jobs. Maybe not necessarily within a job trying to negotiate. But but I've I know people who have tried to kind of pin employers against each other and then like lost out on both of them. So I think it's usually in the job change space. But yeah, either one that you want to speak to, negotiating in the space you're

already in, or in a job change. Yeah, So how to do this well, I guess negotiating well so that it doesn't backfire. I mean, I hear you saying it usually doesn't. But what can people do to set themselves up best? Yeah? Absolutely? You know, I mentioned in the five step method, the first thing I talked about was making them excited to hire you. The second step is really important, and it's attracting multiple offers. So you brought up how do you juggle those multiple offers without like

burning bridges and and upsetting people. Um, it is a delicate balance, and I'm not going to say that it's not. It's a lot easier when you just talk to one person. It's kind of like trying to date multiple people at one time and keep the name straights and names, the names and birthdays and special dates like straight. You know, So you have to understand that it's going to be a little bit challenging in that way. But I think if you approach it from place of honesty and transparency

throughout the hiring process. So for example, if you're talking to employer A and during the middle of the interview process, Employer B comes in the picture, they reach out to you on LinkedIn, and you are excited about that opportunity, you know, telling Employer A, you know, I want to continue interviewing with you, but I also want to be transparent.

I'm getting further along in an interview with with another firm, and you can use that in a way that's not going to burn bridges, but just helps them understand that you're a hot commodity and that there's someone else who's interested in working with you. I would bring that up for sure with the company that you ultimately want to work with and kind of tell them in a way that's, hey,

I just want to be transparent. I may have another potential offer on the table, especially if you're in a situation where the interview has been dragging on or you've been waiting on an offer and they haven't like just picked up their feet and like done it. You can use that to kind of get them moving and say, you know, you guys are my first choice, but I do want to be transparent. I have another offer potentially

coming in. I just wanted to know how soon do you think we'll be able to get an offer on the table. And then when you do get that offer, let's say that it's less than what competitor employer BE has offered you or looks like they're going to offer you. Then just be transparent and honest again and say, y'all are my top pick, but I have to be honest. Um, this other offer that I am looking at right now out is offering me ten k more k moreps whacking my mic or whatever it may be. And let them

know now if they say, how dare you? You know this is our best and final offer and you should be grateful and blah blah blah, and like they hang up the phone, like that's the worst case scenario. Who

wants to work there? Anyway? You know, you kind of have to use this as an opportunity to see who you're working with and how they're going to handle a situation like that, that's the worst case scenario more likely, and what I see is that at that point they've invested time, resources, people power into recruiting you, going through the interview process, and if you followed all the steps that I outline about making them excited to hire you,

you know, really knowing your value and illustrating that making them fall in love with you and want you, at that point, they're not going to want to go back to the drawing board. They're gonna want to make it work. And that's when it comes back to are you that person that someone wants to fight for? That someone wants to go send that email to HR and ask for the extra money and be like, oh, I really want to work with Jillian Um, she's got another offer. What

can we do? I'm afraid she's gonna you know, we're gonna lose her. That's what you want to happen. If you've really illustrated your value and they are excited to have you, it's very unlikely that they're just going to burn that bridge and close the door on you just because you know you've brought a competing offer to the table. Nice and if it does, I guess if it backfires, like why would you really want to work there? Anyway? That's that's really had to go with the worst case scenario.

There's a bunch of other positive outcomes, yes, like I see it every day positive. Like my one of my favorite stories Jasmine. She's a someone who reached When I first started my business, I was doing free coaching just to see if I was good at it. I was, it's fine, man. And this um, this young woman Jasmine in Texas, she works in higher ed and she was a researcher. UM. I think she like studied blood or

something like that. She had to be in the office um to do it during the pandemic with a toddler at home. I don't know how she did it. And when she reached out to me, she had like no negotiating experience and like and many people in academia thought that she was kind of stuck. And she was earning like fifty K at the time and started to put herself out there apply get on LinkedIn work her network. She ended up fielding three different job offers at the

same time. Within a span of like three days. She had three different job offers. Offer one with seventy three, Offer two was ninety, Offer three was one ten right, And that's the power of her managing those different offers, walking away when she got the low ball offer, negotiating more based on her second offer from offer number three. I mean, this is a woman who did not think that she could negotiate before. So I see it happened. I know the power of it. Um So I'm a

huge proponent of listen, juggling those different dates different. If you dated around a lot, then you'll be really good at this. Or if you didn't, now's your chance, Mandy, not to put you on the spot. I know this question is not in our outline to you, but I know we're talking a lot about kind of negotiating when changing jobs to some of these same principles apply if

we're just negotiating within the job we're already in. Or do you recommend kind of job hopping a lot to be able to get the higher wages or what are you seeing what could be applied for someone who they really like their job they want to make more. There's a method to my madness. You know. I focus a lot on creating a strong professional brand so that you

can attract the juiciest job offers to you. But it also is impossible to deny an employees excellence when they are being you know, they're sharing it with the world, They're getting great feedback from people outside the company and within the company. All the things that go into creating a strong professional brand. You know, as a worker today

that helps they help you in your current job. Maybe put yourself up for a promotion, or get the sense among people at your company that you're a hot commodity. We might lose Mandy because we see her getting awards making at events. We're not dumb. We know that our competitors are going to be are going to find her and want to work with her, So what can we

do to retain her. I was a part of many conversations as a hiring manager about retention, and you would have to identify who's the greatest flight risk on your team. And it wasn't just people who are fed up and want to leave. It's like people who have the potential to get poached from your competitors, and that's you know,

those are conversations that hiring managers are having. So I do think that everything I talk about can apply to positioning yourself and thinking of your current employer as someone who should be competing for you and I do encourage women, especially to you know, go for it, ask for that promotion, ask for their raids. Internally at your company, really get in the habit of chronicling your impact along the way

as you go through your the year. For example, like your impact, So what kind of work have you produced and how have you maybe exceeded expectations and how can

that be measured? Did you create a more efficient system that saved money or you know, you trained x number of new employees which led to higher engagement rates in the survey, like whatever you're you know, measures for success are those kpi s. How can you demonstrate your impact and be talking about that with your employer and don't be shy about letting them know, you know, after a year or two, I'd love to be considered for this

next role. And if you hear no, and if you feel stymied in your growth, absolutely you're in the right for wanting to pursue a new opportunity outside the company. And if you're doing everything I'm talking about and you're sharing your work outside, chances are some opportunities are going to come to you and you're gonna have other options than just staying stuck where you are and where they're not giving you those opportunities for a raise or for growth.

You see how that kind of all works together. And then if you do get a competing offer, there's no better way to get to have the leverage to get a raise at work outside of the normal annual review raise than having a competing job offer. So I do. And I'm not saying that you have to take every job offer that you get, but I definitely believe if a couple of things are true, absolutely you should jump

and not feel bad about it. Like if you're going to get paid substantially more, and if you're going to get opportunities to grow that you're not getting where you are, why would you stay? Yeah, that's such a good point. And I think we have we have a lot of like listeners, and I can I feel the same like when I switched industries kind of felt similarly like I would love to make more, but I love the place where I'm at so much, Like I love the people

I work with. The environment's very chill, and and they kind of associate going up in pay with going up in stress or negative work environment. Yeah, how telling our stuff crap to keep us stuck? So like what how do you what do you tell people? And like if and I know we're not talking in worst case scenarios, if it is a more stressful environment, like what is the benefit of that too? Or the way how do

you get people out of there? Don't take that job where you have to sell your soul for more pay, Like how can you Is there a way to identify that before you take it? For sure? If you have a way of getting in touch with any colleagues who have recently left the company, maybe you know someone who's worked there, or you can find people on LinkedIn who

used to work there and ask about their experience. I wouldn't say go to like glassdoor reviews because generally only the most like angry employees who leave the company leave reviews. It's kind of like yelp, like only people who hate something are going to take the time to leave a review. But yeah, you can do your due diligence in that way. You can um you can ask for peer interviews, like

through the hiring process. If you're only speaking to higher ups, you can say I'd love to chat with a couple of peers that I may be working alongside, and they may give you some candid feedback on like what the work environment is like. Some of the most toxic work environments based on the feedback I get from hundreds of clients, is like nonprofits. You know, there's this thing that nonprofits pay terrible right place to work, you're all doing good,

there's a lot of toxicity in that space. So I feel like you just have to understand that if you're working someplace and it's great, you love the people you work with, it's very comfortable, but they're not paying you what you want to be valued or what you think you should be getting, and you don't feel like you're being valued, But you stay because you don't think you'll find another place where you'll enjoy working as much you can.

There are other great places where you can work with other lovely people that may pay you more, but you have to put yourself out there to find those opportunities. And it goes the same way for if you're wanting or your if you think that you want to move up and and get a you know, a higher title and more responsibilities, find a place that's actually going to support you. So one of my favorite questions in interviews to ask is, so, how can I be supported and

hitting these goals, these expectations. Is there a budget for contractors for support? Do I have a team that I can rely on? Is there good relationships with other teams at the company that can be supportive? And figure out how are you going to be supported? Or is everything going to be on your shoulders in the pressure, We're going to crush you. You don't want to work there, but there are places I've worked there. I say the place five years, and I'm a great quitter. I love quitting.

I'll do it when I say loyal for five years because I had great team, great support, I had everything I needed to thrive, you know, and those places exist. That's so interesting. I definitely felt that taking the leap from acupuncture to personal finance writing because my job was so comfy, Like it was so comfy, but like I couldn't there was no more room for growth there, and it ended up being like very much worth the jump.

But if it hadn't been, if I hadn't liked it, I could always just go back, like I could, and I was. I was in an ideal situation where I could go back. But there are also other jobs too, Like you shouldn't change your mind. Yeah, yeah, there's permission, so I claiming that passion. M h. We just I don't know who told us that you have to like choose one thing to do, like after college, and then just do that thing. And if you change your mind,

then you suck. Like that's just so silly. Like life changes, you become a parent, you want different things. I used to hate working remotely. Now I don't know what I would do without it, you know. Yeah, we should all just give ourselves grace, And if anyone tries to shame you for it, think about why they're shaming you. If it's a former manager and you're quitting and they're super piste at you, it's because you made their life more inconvenient because now they have to find someone else to

do what you were doing and hire someone else. Well, way, that's the job of a manager. So you know what you asked for this, So you have to like you're not responsible for how other people feel about the decisions that you make. You just got to make the best choice you can with integrity and make peace with people want to get annoyed about it, that's not your problem. I love to have at the Brown She's always like, it's not my business. It's not my business how other

people think about the choices that I make. And I think we all could stand to, you know, really internalize that. M hm hm. You know what else we need permission for and can be internalized. It's also an external thing. I mean, it just fits the bill. On all the things we should all we all get permission for. This the bill of the week. That's right, It's time for the best minute of your entire week. Maybe a baby

was born and his name is William. Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. Bill Buffalo Bills, Bill Clinton, this is the bill of the week. So Mandy, every week we invite our listeners or our guest to share with us their bill for the week, and we know you have one prepared and we can't wait to hear it. I did prepare, and I went maybe in a little bit of a different direction than you guys

were expecting. But I'm gonna shout out now. The direction is vague for a reason. Okay, cool, I'm gonna shout out. I looked at this bill. I'm gonna shout out Bill HR zero, which is a bill that's been proposed to the House of Representatives. It's called the Salary Transparency Act. It would require employers to actually disclose the wage or the salary range in public job listings for jobs. So hell yeah, I want to shout that bill out. And who was it proposed by this fabulous del Norton and

Eleanor Holmes Democrats from like looks like DC. I don't know, so I want to shout that out. We know we just had to pay transparency law that passed here in New York City and change the game for millions of workers because now you actually can see the job salary range on a job listing, which is like something that seems so like why and why is it hidden? And finally it's happening. So yeah, I hope this law passes at the federal level. That would be pretty dope. This

is a great bill. We love. We love all directions of bills. People have talked about these types of bills in the past, and this is one of the most frustrating things to me in finding work. Anytime I filled out applications, it's like, don't waste my time and I won't waste your time, because often it's not until you get to the final stages of hiring that you learn what you might make or what they're kind of offering. And it's like, I never would have applied, Like this

is so ridiculous. I was even in a job interview at one point, sorry to hijack your bill of the week, where they were like, oh, when you could even earn a little bit more if you wanted, like if you happen to have a like if you got your bachelor's degree. At some point I was like, I have my bachelor's degree right now sitting in front of you, and he's like, oh, oh okay, Like it was just a waste of everybody's time getting fired up about this, Like why didn't you

tell me this allery range? Why didn't you read my accomplishments like that much? How partially start making twelve dollars? It was ridiculous, Like, we just all need to know what we're in for and it'll go a lot better. Yeah, it doesn't take away the need to know your value and to have your own target salary range in mind, but it does take put the onus on the people who actually have the power and have the knowledge to share that, and I think it has a good thing

all around. Yeah, great Bill, Mandy. I hope, I hope it happens for all of our sakes. Mid terms. We're kind of dicey. I don't know how things are shaved. I don't even know who controls what right now, see who ever knows. If you listening, have a bill your particularly psyched about you hope passes, or a bill you paid, a bill you don't want to pay a person named Bill, you know, the drill froup of Friends podcast dot com slash Bill. Leave us your bill. We're waiting for it.

And now it's time for pew pew. It gets just gets weirder, and we're going to get poached for our Lightning Round noises, like some sort of sound effect is gonna be finding me. It's going to happen one day. We've been doing this for almost five years and eventually, one day Jill will get poached for her sound effects. And uh, yeah, it's a good thing that I control

the inbox. Well Goldie controls it, so let's go just yeah. Alright, So this week's Lightning Round is sharing our best or worst salary negotiations story and bonus points if it's funny, but it doesn't have to be. Mine is not funny. Uh so, Mandy, you have the most stories, so you can go first. Oh funny, I don't know if I have a funny one. It's all very serious and stressful. Um in the best way possible. I like to just go aheat people. Yeah, salary negotiated stressful, it's supposed to be.

It's uncomfortable. You'd have to get over and do it anyway. I'm most proud of the last corporate salary that I negotiated because I negotiated like the baller that I was, and I knew that they really wanted me, and um, I got the offer from them and it was great because at that point I illustrated my brilliance. It was pretty great. Um. I was happy with the base compensation, but the signing bonus was like fift K and I

was like, you can do that. I was, and I remember I actually recruiter and I was like, you know, I just don't think that the signing bonus is it makes me as excited for the bonus as I am for the role. And is there any way that we can make that more exciting and they did. They turned it from and that was pretty more than my words. You have say, Okay, how do you show like, I mean, how do you show like do you have to prove your your need or your worth for signing bonus? Like

what is involved with that? Well to get the signing bonus? I mean, in my industry at the time, this was a financial institution, signing bonuses are not unheard of, and it's becoming more and more common, especially in the wake of the pandemic. More and more businesses, even Domino's Pizza was offering signing bonuses. So that's one of the good outcomes of the pandemic is that companies to to fight for demand for the best people, they needed to offer

these little incentives. So it was common. But I also was leaving money on the table at my current company at the time, So I was leaving like equity that had been invested, and I think it was approaching my annual bonus time and so I had already let them know, you know, can you make me whole for the money and leaving on the table, So that fift k was

like just about covering it. But I, like I said, I just wanted to feel as excited about the compensation offer, as I genuinely was for the opportunity, and I knew that they really wanted me, So no, didn't have to fight or make my case because at that point it already made them excited to hire me. At that point, they already knew how amazing I was, and it was. And I also knew that the hiring manager. I knew

what was going to happen. The recruiter was going to go the hiring manager and say, hey, do you have the budget for more? What can you do for many? And he really wanted me, so I was like, he'll probably say something. I didn't think it was going to be nearly triple, but I thought it would be more. And that was that, you know, challenge accepted on their part. Don't show the jaw drop stone face. Yes, that's exactly

what I was hoping for. I don't do it. I feel excited, ding ding ding You got there a quickly excited. That's amazing. Oh my gosh, um, Jill, can you top it? No? I can't. My worst is that you guys, here you go. Jen Love's vulnerability. I have never negotiated a salary. In my defense, I come from My background is in social work, and I have historically worked in very small nonprofits where

I was leading the nonprofit. So the negotiation would have looked like me negotiating with myself trying to increase fundraising. Isn't there a board? Uh yeah yeah not stuff sure, But then like the board would just say you go make more money, like you go get more money from fundraising efforts. They were always super small organizations where you just needed more money to provide for the women that we were caring for, So it just it was complicated.

I would say my way of moving up within the field has been increasing my skill set, educational background and the job hopping and the side hustles and Jen and I starting our own business and going after entrepreneurial pursuits.

So at its core of negotiating a salary, I've never really been in a company where there's like anybody to negotiate with, but negotiating maybe with myself and then within some of these So my best though, I will say, is within having Frugal Friends podcast and co owning a business with Jen. We have been in positions of negotiating the two of us together. It's it's a fun combo

I would say that's fun. I wouldn't call it funny, but it is fun to be on some of these phone calls and kind of volley back and forth where Jen hops in on something, well what about this? What can you do on this? And then I hop in on something else and I asked for and we've we've done well. Negotiating it's not necessarily like negotiating salaries, but it's negotiating partnerships and deals. Yeah, I love it. I get to do that too. It's fun because I just

live for that thrill, the sense of it. I mean, it's actually when you feel like you have a leg up, which is yeah, that when there's something to stand on, when you've kind of proven out your skill set and you've got a platform to stand on, then it becomes

a little bit more exhilarating because your value was obvious. Yeah, and I learned something from every single one, Like I still don't feel like I'm a master negotiator because every time we negotiate a deal, I learned something new and I wouldn't and we would not be as successful in negotiating without like friendships and relationships with other people that are not I mean better negotiators just but just really just more like knowledgeable about the industries and the deals

that we're in, and like being able to have people, you know, tell us like, all right, this is what they'll budge on, this is what you can expect, This is what so and so at the other you know organization did, yeah and so like yeah, Like relationships have been critical to negotiating, well, I have found there. They're critical to literally everything we've done. But negotiation is just one of the things on the list. What about you, Jen, what stories do you have for us? Okay, So my

worst one I when I was just starting out. I was like a new acupuncturist. I was making ten dollars an hour, and I had an offer from a competing clinic, but I wanted to like honor this woman who had given me a job before I was licensed. She had given me a lot of mentorship, so she had just done a lot for me. But she was paying me ten dollars an hour, so I wanted to be faithful to her and loyal to her, And I was like, can you give me more than ten dollars an hour?

And she said no, So I left because ultimately I am most loyal to me. Yea, I left so but like I was transparent with her about all of that, um, and when she said no, I had to I had to leave. So that was like gut wrenching. It was oh my god, it was almost double it was insane. Um yeah, of course, and she was very cheaply. Yeah. And it turned out to be an even better job, like an even better boss, even better coworkers, like it was just all around ten times better. But I didn't

know that going into it. It was really a chance and a you know, a feeling that I took. So that thost worst and I guess best. That was great. But when I left acupuncture altogether to start writing, they had kind of poached me. So I had taken kind of like a quote unquote internship with them, just on the side of my regular job because they saw, like I saw, they were offering internships on LinkedIn of all

places LinkedIn, and I had a blog. I had no other writing background, so I was like, hey, this is this is my portfolio and they're like cool, come on. And after that internship, they wanted to hire me full time, but I didn't want to leave my job yet, and so they had wanted me for almost a year. Uh, they had been asking me to come on, and finally I was ready and I was able to. So they

offered me a number. I think it was forty one, and then I was just looking at every all the compensation and the benefits, and I was like, in order to make this viable for me, I have to take fifty one. And I think I got forty or forty seven. So it wasn't every thing that I asked for, but it was something I would have gotten if I hadn't asked. So yeah, that was That was the last crease of five K. And what they were offering you is not

that at all. Yeah, I was never going to get that in Raises, and I didn't because they laid off half the company a year later. Order yes, feeling yeah like finance, Yeah, I remember that later. But that was a great Yeah. It was a great place to work while it last. And that was my last j O B. Everything else has been negotiating deals and rates and nothing like to really put you on a path for success. I tell you, it was the best thing that ever

happened to me. Worst timing because I was eight weeks away from giving birth right so horrible timing. Best thing that's ever happened to the you know, the career, so to speak. So yeah, well, Mandy, you have given us a plethora of things to think on look for, aim at mindset shifts mostly, and I really hope that those continue to solidify for folks wanting just better in their careers and earning potentials. And you've talked a lot about some of your resources. Where can people get more from

you so they can keep digging in? Yeah, I think the most exciting thing right now is my negotiating master class. It's free, offering it entirely for free. I teach my full method for negotiating. It's a complete lesson. There's no in order to get the rest, you have to sign up for this and I do that sporadically when I feel like it's so the best thing to do is to sign up for my email list. You can do that at Mandy money dot com. It's m A N. D I Money dot com and join my mailing list

and um no spam. I'll let you know in the next master classes. I've also got a free toolkit called the Just Quit Toolkit if you need a little extra push in the Right Direction that you can download also for free from Mandy Money dot com. Definitely definitely get in on that, and we're also going to link some of Mandy's articles that she's written that I really enjoy in our show notes. So yeah, check out more from Mandy. Thanks for having me on, y'all. Thanks for being here. Jill.

I can see I can see you were a little challenged by today's episode. It was I'm still sweating, just a little bit, like good sweating. You are wearing a jacket, the kind of sweat that you get from sitting in like a really amazing sauna. It's like, I signed up for this, I'm here for it. It's what I wanted, and I am sweating. Yeah, I can't go in saunas. I'm again things I hate about it, So your Friends

podcast dot com slash. I loved this episode because italidated some of the things, like I already knew about negotiating, and the part about being poached. I knew that happened, I didn't know how common it was, and I didn't know I wouldn't have been able to tell a strategy for making yourself poachable. And that is really I think my biggest takeaway, I'm so passionate that your network of relationships really is what gets you further in life, way more than who you can pay to do what for you.

So this is just another way of investing in people, Uh not even I mean just bare minimum investing in people and and see and having it help you so much. I think it helped me break out of a little bit of the box that I still can feel like I'm in or don't know I'm in, but realize I'm in by talking with people with alternative perspectives. But also I think we can have such a narrow mindset of like Mandy pointed out what it means to be poached, what it means to be able to move up in

our career and negotiate higher salaries. And it might not look the same in all of the fields, but that doesn't mean it's not accessible in every field. And to realize I didn't realize it until talking with Mandy, Like

that is what's happened for me. I have changed careers because in many ways I got poached, Like the one social work job that I was in, I left and started working for one of the people I previously worked with, Like that was the that was a personal relationship, but that was you know, with under the umbrella of a poaching scenario. I also realized that my opportunity to I'm taking on an adjunct professor position, and that happened because

I'm on LinkedIn. I don't I rarely update it, but a few months ago I just thought to Oh, I'm not looking for work, but it'd be good to just I like keeping things updated. I don't know, It's probably part of my like organization and minimalism. I'm like, I hate that there's a linked In profile on me that's not up to date. I'm just going to update it. I'm not looking for more. But then because of that, a previous professor reached out and offered me an adjunct

professor role. Like, yeah, that is, and that's for me within the field of social work. It's all within the field of social work. So it really does just drive home Many's point. Yeah, definitely. Well, everyone, thank you so much for listening. We hope and we pretty much know you got something out of this, but we'd also love to hear you report back on all of your success stories.

And many of you know that we also have a private community where we do monthly money challenges, and we offer accountability groups, which we all need because we love community and we want to congratulate one of our members for a big win. This came from Susan, who says thank you for Girlfriends Club. I paid off one of my credit cards last week that, at its highest balance

was nearly thirty thousand dollars. I have one more credit card with a balance of eighteen thousand dollars that, if I stick to my plan, will be paid off by April, just a on the river bend. As I have carried this debt, I all also have carried the shame of having built it. But this group is so supportive and safe that I feel less shame about the debt and more empowered to pay it off. I have so much gratitude for you all. Susan, we have gratitude for you.

You are an invaluable member. We have loved having you, and yeah, shame is not something you should carry about this. We are so excited for you, and there's we're going to have quite a few people I think in April making some big pay off milestones. For some reason, that's gonna be a big month. Yeah, I'm excited for that is very close and my goodness, what massive strides in such a short amount of time. So I'm so glad that this community has been helpful for you. Those money

challenges have been helpful for you. If you all listening, think this is the kind of motivation you need. Head Differental Friends podcast dot com slash club. You can see what challenge we have coming up next. You can jump in with us. You can see this kind of progress for yourself. See you there. Frugal Friends is produced by Eric Syrian. So I want to talk about what I just talked to you about, but not what we just talked about, but what we talked about before. Follow your lead,

so we don't give myself. Um, I bought a shirt and it is a maternity shirt, and so I have very limited options. It's got to be long, that has that's like the first and it's I mean, it has to be white enough, so either a maternity or just like a baggy flowy shirt and they hate flowy things. Okay, So I find this black tank top and if you know me, you know black tank tops are all I wear. So I buy it. I don't even think twice about it's my size. I'm here for it is at the

thrift store. And I put it on the first time you bought it before having tried it on. I didn't try it on. It was my size. Yeah, And there in live the problem because I put it on and there's a hole right in the chest region and holes at the bottom, which thankfully are covered by most maternity pant they go right up, right up all over the tummy. And so that is not much of a problem, but the one and you actually got this is so sweet.

You didn't. You just thought I had a crumb on my boob and you didn't tell me, and then you realized, oh, that's a hole, and I am wearing an overshirt that you could cover it but open set. Well, here's the thing I would point something out to. I did notice it, but you were telling me a story, so I'm not going to interrupt you and just so you can like flick the crumb off your bob, so so that I

didn't say. But then upon further investigation, while I was multitasking listening to your and investment getting your left breast, I realized, oh, that's not a crumb, that's a hole in the shirt. And I'm going to leave it alone. Poor girls pregnant? What are you gonna do? This is the second time I've worn the shirt. But now what's worse? Because yeah, you know, you know it has holes? I have limited options putting it on limited options available, I

don't know. I think you have a limiting mindset about your clothing options. Well, I have a limiting body type about my clothing options. Surely there is another shirt at the thrift store. They are ugly that don't have holes in them. I know you value beauty and it is not one of my core values. So when I tell you the other options were ugly, I need you to trust me. Yeah, this one isn't so much about my peripheral value of beauty. This might fall under the core

values of faith, family, friends, and fulfilling work. You can have none of these right right on your bra and I agree. But here and lot, here's and where my priorities are. I'm still wearing it. She won't get rid of it until she gets the baby out of her bellies. So come soon, March, Come soon. I will not put it back into a thrift store. Will not do this to another woman, thank you. Yeah, turn it into like a rag or something a burp cloth for sure, two