Episode three ninety seven, How cognitive biases cause us to overspend with Amanda Montel.
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast, where you'll learn to save money, embrace simplicity, and live your life. Here your hosts Jen and Jill.
Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. My name is Jen, my name is Jill, and we are bringing you a guest interview a little early. I know it shouldn't be till next episode, but our friend Amanda has a book coming out this week, and I don't know if you know, but the first week of publishing for authors is super important, and so we wanted you to hear about her book and her in the week it comes out.
Yeah, and this is another good one. I you all know that my favorite is guest interviews, and lately we've been doing a lot of interviews with people who aren't specifically in the personal finance space, but have really rich stuff to say pun intended that can absolutely positively impact our personal finances and the rest of our lives. Because again, we think we're whole people, so if we can improve ourselves in one area, it will by proxy eventually approve
our financial situation as well. So this is another one of those, and I think really really helpful and kind of getting deep down into some of our mindsets that can help us rain in impulse spending.
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So we are writing a book if you haven't already heard, And one of the things that I was specifically writing in my part of the book we kind of like Divided and Conquered, was cognitive biases. How these and we'll get into what cognitive biases are in the interview. But when I found out Amanda was writing a book on it, I was flabbergasted because she wrote one of my favorite books, Cultish The Language of fanaticism, and if you haven't read it, highly recommend reading it. It is so fun and it
talks about what modern day cults look like. So maybe we're not in the era of the Mansons and stuff like that, but it does not mean we are any less prone to a joining a cult like that or be our own modern day takes on cults. And she also hosts the hit podcast Sounds Like a Cult. And so this book that she has out, now, the Age of Magical Overthinking, is about all of these cognitive biases that we have that impact the way we make decisions, and that is all over our lives and so many
spending decisions. So if you want to talk more, if you want to hear more about like spending decisions, some episodes like episode three fifteen, how to Build and Break habits that cause you to overspend, in episode two seventy four, how to Align your spending with your values, those are some good ones to up for after this. But I'm so excited for you guys to hear this interview with Amanda.
Let's get with her.
Amanda, Welcome to the Frugal Friends podcast. We are super excited and if anybody knows us and knows you, then they'll know why we're so excited.
Just welcome.
Yes, I've been looking forward to this. I've been on my finance curly game recently. I have a new accountant.
I know. We love an accountant. We love an accountant.
I love being a finance Gurly means you've hired somebody.
I mean we haven't. We joke about being the same person. We do actually have the same accountant. I mean, that's beautiful.
I love that.
Well.
Actually, my partner and I now have the same accountant, and we like love to gossip about him.
We love ours. He like has a little lake in the back, and he takes so few clients so that he can have more time to like fish between clients. He I've never met somebody who has so much disdain for the I R s as as our accountant and oh that's.
In an accountant.
Love him for this.
Yeah, you said that he had a pond and takes few clients. I thought you meant he'll only take as many clients as he can fit in his late bond.
No opposite, and that would be a fun constraint.
He doesn't want people around. He wants to see people around as possible, and I love that for him.
Well, Amanda, you've got so much that you are an expert on your wealth of knowledge and wisdom, and I mean we know that we're excited because you do know a lot about cults and your podcast is about that and we eventually, Jenna and I would love to start a cult, but I can be able to tie it into personal finance real quick. You talk about cognitive biases and just curious to hear your thoughts on what are they? Why should we care about them?
Yeah? Absolutely? Okay, So my new book is called The Age of Magical Overthinking, and it connects to cults actually because so much of the research that I was doing while writing that book, which is about the language of cults, from scientology to soul cycle, so the full spectrum of influence.
As I was doing that research, I came across all this really fascinating psychology and behavioral economics research that made mention of cognitive biases and how things like confirmation bias and the sunk cost fallacy could explain so much of the cult behavior that I was looking into. But more urgently, I felt like these biases could also explain so many of my everyday irrational choices, and so many of the irrationalities that I was noticing that I was noticing in
the zegeist at large. So a cognitive bias is basically this deep rooted mental magic trick that we play on ourselves in order to help us make efficient decisions as human beings. So we have limited mental capacity, we have limited time, we have limited memory, we have limited psychological resources. We need to be able to jump to conclusions sometimes in order to make everyday decisions, and in early human brains, these shortcuts developed to help us make sense of the
world enough to describe it. But in my new book, I kind of make this argument that are ingrained mysticisms and irrationalities that were once so useful to us net positive and almost every capacity, are now disserving us because they're clashing with the overwhelm of information that we now are exposed to in the digital age.
That was a really helpful and succinct definition. I think that's one of the things that has stood out to me about cognitive biases as well, is I think there can be this negative connotation to it, which they can certainly be proper, but they first exist as a way to kind of help us move through the world and make quick decisions and be able to kind of operate as a highly functioning human. But then they really can
get in the way. How are you seeing this as being really important then to be aware of like what stood out to you in your research and in writing this book as the reason to well, let's really focus in on this. Why are they important?
Yeah, Well, they help us make decisions that are sometimes not the best in today's society in a way that is completely unnoticed and unconscious by us. Cognitive biases were once purely helpful or at least mostly helpful, and now in our ever complicating, ever technologically driven world, they're not serving us so much, but they're doing that unconsciously, so we don't realize that these men any cognitive biases are at play. I mentioned confirmation bias in sunt cost fallacy.
These are two of the most famous biases that get the most airplay and headlines and things like that when talking about politics or cults, but there have been hundreds described by psychologists and behaviorally economists. In my book, I basically chose my eleven faves, like the eleven that I
found to be the most relevant. The most urgent for modern society, and I contextualize them to make them feel more personal, because these can feel like kind of abstract, heady concepts when you just read about them in an academic article or something like that. But the truth is
that the sunt cost fallacy doesn't just apply to finances. This, by the way, describes our fallacious pensions to believe that resources already spent on an endeavor, whether it's money, time, or even emotional resources like hope, justify spending even more. And you could easily see how that would have a
financial tie, but it also has a personal tie. And so the way that I chose to approach this sun cost fallacy in my book was from the position of this very sort of vulnerable story where I talk about this cult of one toxic relationship that I was in in my early twenties, actually from my late teens to mid twenties, so many of my formative years were spent in this relationship that I kept just sinking costs into, unable to accept that a win wasn't just around the corner.
And so I was kind of treating this relationship in a way that you might treat a poker hand, where you've put so much on the table you can't foold now, or you know, in keeping, like doubling down on a bad stock because you've been investing in it for so long.
There are so many parallels to be made, and so these cognitive biases are really important to be aware of and to understand because that awareness can drive your behavior and improve your decision making, whether you're talking about money or love.
Yeah, I read the book and I really appreciated how you use that example for sunt costs because I've like read hundreds of articles, and anytime sunt costs comes in, it is always something financial, something money related, and so I thought it was really refreshing to hear like and obviously, like all of our relational you know, you know, decisions also have a money factor to them. So yeah, I really appreciated that that example.
Thank you. Yeah, that chapter was challenging to write, as you can imagine, because it's vulnerable, more vulnerable than talking about money in a way. But also money is, as you know, better than anyone, like, such a touchy subject, and so it was cool to be able to in a way like personalize conversations that would ordinarily be seen as kind of crass and kind of like use the personal and the more practical in tandem to make a point.
Yeah, so let's talk about some of these biases that affect our money. Which ones do you believe have the most significant influence on overspending? Oh my gosh, or it can be all of them, but like fa choose how to choose?
I mean, certainly the ones that come to mind are overconfidence bias, zero sum bias, the sun cost fallacy for sure, and related relatedly, this bias toward additive solutions, which I would love to talk about because becoming aware of that bias, which is similar or at least connected to the sun cost fallacy, Becoming aware of that one has really informed my decision making regarding spending. Those are and obviously confirmation bias is something that we can't avoid. It is like
the invisible star of all our decision making. But yeah, I would love to talk about additive solution bias because that that one probably has had the most direct practical effect on my own spending.
Okay, yeah, let's start with that one.
Okay. So, as I was writing that sun cost fallacy chapter, I came across this fascinating study that spoke about how we as human beings, but specifically those of us who grow up in consumerist society have this inclination toward solving a problem by adding things to the equation, even though a more simple solution might involve just taking one little
thing away. So the study involved presenting people with a spatial puzzle involving colored blocks, and the study participants were invited to solve the spatial problem by either adding colored blocks or taking away colored blocks. What they didn't know is that this block problem could have been solved in one move by taking one single colored block away, But the vast majority of these study participants went for an additive solution. They decided to add all of these colored blocks,
and it's very like cumbersome. You could see how the consumerist parallels come into play. This like over the top, extravagant spendee solution. They were just spending blocks that they didn't have to pay money for. But the point is the vast majority of people decided to solve this problem in an overcomplicated, additive way. Now I was like mind plone when I came across the study, because first of all,
it applied to my relationship. I was like, all I need to solve my miseries in this partnership that is not good for me. All I need is to add, you know, another vacation. We just need to go on another splashy vacation that'll solve everything. Or we need to get another cat. I don't regret any of my cats. What they do help you. Yeah, yeah, no, the more cats the better.
That is my.
Additive solution bias. But but what they put those cats did not do was solve my relationship problems. I thought, you know, we just need to add more and more and more and more variables to this equation and surely that will heal all of our woes, when really what
we probably needed to do was just break up. And of course, not every relational problem should be solved by cutting the person out of your life, Like I do not believe in that whatsoever, and I think that actually there's too much cutting of people out of lives in
today's society. Meet me on my soapbox. But I do think that that subtractive solution versus additive solution disparity has been really informative because now when I make smaller, lower stakes decisions in my everyday life I'm aware of it, and it can help me from making an irrational choice. So, for example, this is a really low stakes example, but I was recently looking at my junk drawer and I was like, oh my god, this junk drawer is such
a mess, so embarrassing. If someone were to come over and look at this, they would think I was deranged. What I need to do is go online and order some really cute for organizers, like that will help me to act. I would tell you that, yes, yes, I need to go to the container store, you know, like that's going to solve my problem. Same thing with my office, Like you can't see my office right now, but there's a lot of chotchkeys going on. I was like, I
need like a beautiful acrylic like desk organizer like some drawers. No, you know what the better solution is, throw the junk away pair down, scale back. And I find again that that awareness can help me make decisions, whether they're financial, consumerist, or more spiritual.
It's such a good example, and I think ties into one of the things we briefly touched on before we hit the record button about the way parameters can create increased creativity, like untethered, no limits, no holds barred, we usually aren't as productive, efficient, creative as when we have some reasonable, realistic boundary is around us. And it seems like this is kind of touching on that where no,
we don't have to add. In fact, maybe even taking away makes this whole problem simpler, more easy to solve, and provides better boundaries for us to play within and be creative within.
One hundred percent. Like it really highlights how the term behavioral economics is kind of like the perfect term to describe this field of study, because all of these biases are as applicable to finances and this play pertend economics system that we've created in society as they are to our interpersonal relationships and our social lives, and especially in the digital age, so much currency isn't actually monetary, it's cloud,
its followers, it's you know, social relationships, it's these things that are more abstract, and so I think actually, now more than ever, as economics and capital become more abstract, more hazy, more confusing, learning about these biases is. Yeah, it's just more helpful than ever. I think.
Yeah, this isn't a business podcast, but I can't tell you how many times I've thought the solution to our business was adding more things to it, Like right, yes, the real things that have moved the needle have been simplifying. When we simplify the takeaway, that's when we're able to move faster.
Oh yeah, Like businesses have gone bankrupt by people adding too many cooks to the kitchens, scaling too quickly, and in capitalist society, like we are taught that growth is you know, the ultimate goal, and you should be growing as quickly as possible. But then I always think of that quote, and I forget who said it. Was it Edward Albie, I don't know. I heard of this quote in the movie Triangle of Sadness when Woody Harrelson and
that Russian capitalist are having their quote off. But the Woody Harrelson's character says, growth for growth's sake is the ideology of a cancer cell.
Oo.
Wow, yeah, I wish i'd coin to that.
All right, there we have, yeah it take that one. That's a nugget.
Yeah, slap that on a quote gram merchant by.
It, Yes, exactly, and then we'll sell it perfect. Okay, So yes, additive bias such a good one. What was another one that you mentioned that we can dive into well.
Zero sum bias for sure, and this describes our proclivity to believe that another person's gain directly means your loss. So if another person is thriving, successful, wealthy, attractive, this mental magic trick that we play on ourselves tells us that their wealth, their coolness, their beauty threatens our wealth, our coolness, our beauty, even though that's not how it works. Those things are not in limited quantities. But this bias stems from a time in human history where resources like
food and mates really were zero. Some there really were only so many in a community, and so someone who was similar to you, similar in age, similar in build really was like a material survival threat to you. But because we don't live in those types of communities anymore, that zero sum bias no longer applies, is no longer helpful,
doesn't you know? Inspire us to compete in ways that help us, it can actually set us up for psychological failure because we're applying that deep rooted shortcut to our social media feeds to like endless comparisons that we're making socially, and we're also comparing it to the broader economy. This modern economy, and so during times of socio political turbulence, when we start to feel more scarcity minded, that zero sum bias really kicks in, and that causes people across
the political spectrum to oppose immigration more strictly. It's really fascinating to see how zero some bias applies to our lives, whether we're talking about like feeling threatened by another woman because she's attractive, or feeling like we want to close our borders because there's societal tumult.
I could see this impacting our finances in two ways, one being you know, for the example you gave of, Okay, this woman's more beautiful than me, it could propel us to now I've got to spend more. That's exactly where I feel more attractive and feel better about myself. But what I also think can happen with this zero sum bias that you've just described, as we could pull back, we might not pursue the job, the goal that we wanted to because it feels like someone else did it.
So now it's taken away from me and I'm not going to achieve what I'm actually capable of. This happened to me. I want to say, like two months before and we've not done this yet, but here's an example.
About two months before remeat Sati's Netflix series came out, I was describing to Jen, how I want to have a TV show that is about personal finance where we get into the lives of people and kind of do this whole person look at what are some of the financial moves that can happen, but how does it touch on all the rest of life? And I'm so excited and I'm ramping up and I'm talking to a lot of people about wanting to do this someday. Jen's like,
I'm never going to do that. But then that's how I know it's gonna happen, because she loves to say never and then do that never thing. We might need to dive into whatever that bias that's attached to. And then this re meet say tea thing came out and I'm like, he took it, he already did it, And I have to remind myself that just that only feels that way because no one else is doing this. There's a ton of organization shows, there's a ton of home
renovation shows. There should be room then for a ton of financial shows, but they're just aren't. And because one person did it, it feels like, well, now we would never be able to do it.
I told her I'd do it if it could be a financial dating show, and we were the laches of the of the.
I love that which mat.
Me, not it.
Yeah, you know, I'm glad we're talking about this because I also want to make the point that the dare I say, the patriarchy sets up a very purposeful, intentional zero sum game for women in particular. I'll say this. Studies reflect that women make more upward social comparisons and downward identifications, so women wage their social bets differently than
men based on conditioning. Of course, But when a woman, for example, scrolls through her social media feed or enters a room and you know, surveys everyone in it, she will only clock the perceived threats. She will only be comparing herself to the people that she perceives as wealthier, more attractive, superior in some way, whereas a man might scroll through his feed or enter a room and only
identify the people that he perceives as inferior. And so that style of social comparison has a massive effect on your self esteem and on your ability to pursue opportunities or to make connections. So zero sum bias really plays into this reality and this narrative that like women are always pitted against each other. It's because we are conditioned by a society that only has say, one spot in the c suite for a woman, or only one spot
or a couple of spots on the Supreme Court. And thus we view women, specifically women who we perceive as superior, as our competition because we're competing for these limited resources,
and that really inhibits collaboration. I took great comfort in this notion called shine theory, which was coined in a viral piece in The Cut about ten years ago by Amy Natuso and Ann Friedman, which describes this sort of counter strategy to these really debilitating social comparisons, where when we see a woman who we admire, who we think is really cool or industrious or successful, don't get competitive,
befriend her, align yourself with her. And it's called the shine theory because it's countering this idea that another person's light dims yours. If you can combine the light, it doesn't take it away anyone's light. Everyone burns brighter, and that's kind of corny, but I think it's a really helpful exercise and something that I've applied to my own life.
You know, when I see another woman on social media who is, say, you know, doing something in her career that's similar to mine and is doing it well, my impulse is to feel threatened. She'll live rent free in my She'll live rent free in my head, or like scroll to see, like what are her accolades, Like what has she done that I haven't? As if those things would diminish what I've done, They haven't. They haven't diminished me at all. And like making that enemy when I
could be making a friend is not helping anyone. So I have tried to combat those impulses by instead of like feeling threatened and you know, making an enemy in my mind too, instead like slide into that person's DMS, congratulate them, sincerely, make a connection. And I've actually forged a lot of friendships that way, like real, genuine friendships that I can't imagine not being in my life. And it was because I pushed past the zero sum bias that is in a way innate but is also encouraged
and exacerbated by being a woman. In this society.
Yeah, I've thought about this so much in the past years and like really had to retrain myself to do this. But and then now something I'm coming across is having a bias like for women who are slightly more successful than me and feeling inferior and not wanting to reach out to them. So not even like they're an enemy, but that like that I can't reach out to them, and that yeah, that there's just like not enough of their time to go around, so I shouldn't even try.
And so I've been like trying to take it a step further now. And I don't know if this is directly related to the bias, but like it was this. It was overcoming this and making more connections with women in the financial field that led me to like reach out to more women who are like just a little bit ahead of me in the road and trying to connect with them and appreciate them and glean their wisdom like not in a like clinging like muture sort of way.
But and that's that's my biggest fear, right, is I don't want to be a burden and or respect right, Yes, So yeah, that's I've been like working through this bias like in this journey, in this path, it's.
Yeah, it's such a hopeful Oh sorry, go ahead.
I just think it's such a helpful reframe that you've described, Amanda, to be able to say, here's the bias. Here's why it's important to be aware of biases, so that we can identify that the bias is at play, and then I and then see is it helping us or is it hurting us? Is the bias helping me to come to quick conclusions, make efficient decisions, get at the things that I want in life? Or is this diminishing me?
Is it not helpful? And to be even able to describe some of these things that we can do instead as a result of identifying the bias that it doesn't
have to even stop at identification. There can be next steps and actions taken that work in contrast to the bias that is actually now hurting us that hopefully you're not saying this, this is where I'm taking it can be come our own bias that we then begin to land on, Like if I say enough there is space for everybody here at the table because you're going to bring your own perspective, then hopefully that'll just overtake the bias that there's not enough space for everybody totally.
I mean, yes, you're you're kind of referencing another bias that I bring up in the book, This thing called the illusory truth effect, which describes our proclivity to think that something that we've heard repeated multiple times must be true even if it's not. Like we mistake frequency for accuracy. And this is a bias that a lot of like political figures and you know, populists take advantage of, and it's very important to be aware of during times like
election years and things like that. But you can also use it to your advantage, you know, like if I tell myself over and over again that you know, another person's light does not dim me, then eventually you will perceive that as accurate.
Is there any other bias that you think has to do with our or will help us make better spending decisions? I think we have time for one more.
Yeah, well, I would love to talk about overconfidence bias.
Okay, I love that.
Yeah, because hold on, let me, let me just make sure, because this is actually the when I talk about this bias is like not typically in the context of money. So over confidence bias. It kind of tells on itself, you can imagine what it means, but it's basically this inclination that is defined by like three key features. Basically, people overvalue their actual skills, express excessive certainty in their evaluations,
and overcredit themselves with positive outcomes. So altogether, this trifecta is known as overconfidence bias, and there have been amazing quotes stated about this. There's journalist named Roger Lowenstein who wrote a book called When Genius Failed, and in it he said, there is nothing like success to blind one
to the possibility of failure. And what he meant by that is that if we just so happened to get lucky in an endeavor, whether it's a financial endeavor or something else, we will think that we're the exception and we're just amazing, and that we're actually not lucky, but instead the man and are going to continue succeeding over and over and over again. And so we might continue to make the same decisions even if they were not
the most rational, not the most prudent. And this type of over confident bullishness is responsible for so many tragedies, from the Challenger space disaster to massive corporate lawsuits, to just feeling really smug when you scroll through your social media feed or watch reality TV and think that person is an idiot and I am brilliant and I would never make a mistake the way that that person is
making a mistake. So over confidence bias shows up in so many arenas of life, including how we set up our lifestyle and spend our money.
Yeah, I think this one's This one might get some of our listeners. But I think over confidence bias comes up in sales, sales shopping. When we get a sale, we are conditioned to think that we are we're smarter, like I got I did not pay as much for this thing as it's worth. I got a great deal. I'm so good, And so we keep shopping sales even when we don't need the item that is on sale. Most a because our dopamine release, you know, triggers us
to remember that smart feeling. But that can lead to an over confidence bias.
Oh, and I think this is one that could really harm us. Beyond the clearance section. This is something where we could make big, take big risks, and gamble a lot with our big spending decisions, Like I'm thinking housing transportation, like our big purchases. One of the things that Eric and I noticed my husband, we used to live in an RV and through that process, there were a lot of people who were telling us I'd love to do that.
I would totally want to do that, And some people then did just because well, you're doing it and it looks easy, I'm going to do it, and they really went all in. And we would try to advise people, hey, rent an RV, go on a two week trip, just to make sure that this is a lifestyle that you would want to do. But a lot of people we saw sold everything, broke off their lease, sold their house, moved into this thing, and three weeks later discover that this is not at all what I want to do,
and that's a massive amount of money lost. It overconfidence, Yes, oh.
My god, your example is reminding me so much of an example from my own life. First, I want to make the disclaimer that, like overconveidence, bias is one of these biases where you're like, no, no, no, no, no, this does not apply to me. I'm a reasonable person. I hate myself like I'm not overconfident. That can't possibly be true. This is a bias that other people enjoy.
But with all of these biases that I write about in the book, I really try to invite us all to kind of like look in the mirror, and I try to do that by example. Like every time in that book that I really wanted to like apply over confidence bias to someone else, I tried to look in word and be like, no, I am completely susceptible to this as well. And oh my god, Jill, your example reminds me of my poor dad. I don't want to put him on blast, but yeah, my dad. My dad
made a big overconfident financial decision. Get this. In two thousand and eight, he was in spir by a friend of his who'd made a killing by building and then renting out a beach house in the Outer Banks. So literally right before the two thousand and eight crash, my dad built a beach house in the in the Outer Banks and was like, this is gonna be an amazing financial investment. Meanwhile, he had absolutely no idea how to do that, like, regardless of what year it was, it
was like a half baked, like amphisted idea. But then, of course you know what happened happened, and that was not the financial win he thought it was going to be. But same thing. He like saw this friend of his, you know, make a killing, and he was like, Oh, if he could do it, I can do it. It can't be that hard. Now, I will say, we've been talking about the pros and cons of all of these biases. Over confidence bias sounds like truly a net negative sort
of phenomenon. But on the positive side, over confidence leads to innovation. You know, like every time someone makes a meaningful discovery or makes progue in any way, they unlock a new level of knowledge they don't have, and those gaps in understanding actually drive us forward. You know. It's like if I had to know absolutely everything I wanted to say perfectly in the book before putting pen to paper, I would have never started. I would have never finished.
And so I do think that sometimes over confident delusions give us the nerve to like keep moving forward and keep sort of like gunning for progress in a better world. But that over confidence is a double edged sword, for sure.
So true, it just highlights the importance of being aware of these biases, acknowledging them, and then making decisions rather than relying on the biases to inform us about our next decisions exactly. Okay, I'm going to take a hard left turn because it's our podcast, in our journey. Yeah, and this is really what we want to talk about. So you know a lot about cults, sure, yep? Is consumerism a cult?
Yeah, dude, I think so. I keep unpacking my own cultish affiliations every single day, even after all of these years writing and talking about cults. I was just thinking of this the other day. I was like, it is really a massive false promise in our society that things objects, even just like owning a house, will offer you some
kind of spiritual existential transcendence. Like I am so disturbed by how I have fallen prey to this consumerist lie that like acquiring materials, and my materials, I even mean like your own how like your own home dwelling? How nuts is this? It's like people weren't even as competitive and as individualists and as sort of like selfish and comparison oriented as we are now until we started living
in our own separate doma siles. Like as soon as the agricultural revolution happened and people started settling in like these stagnant communities and building homes that only their little family lived in. That's when we started being like I want to be richer than you, I want to have
better stuff than you. But it's not a natural or innate human state, Like we can be more generous, we can be more giving, Like it is not endemic to us to like hoard, you know, but in combination with just various advancements in the human species and also like
light stage capitalism. Sorry buzzwords, buzzwords, but truly, like this combination of events has caused us to buy into this cultish promise that like having stuff is not just going to make life, you know, easier or more convenient, it's going to make you feel like you literally want at life, are existentially better than others and will even cheat death. Like that's how it feels. And it's so it's such a lie. It's such a cultish lie.
Yes, And how can Jill and I who who is the cult leader? And who do we have to fight?
How can we start a Yeah?
Who do we have to fight to be the cult leader?
Yeah?
Yeah, well I don't know. I mean I think it's not that simple. Like that's what makes these really broad, sort of more loosey goosey cults. So sinister is that there isn't just one Keith Ranieri in the cult of consumerism. It's like you got Jeff Bezos over there, you got Elon Musk over there, You've got you know, Donald Trump over here. Like but but those are just like some really really big power players. But we're all sort of
perpetuating this cult. Uh, you know. Influencer culture certainly is consumer culture in every shade and flavor is like self propelling. This could And then the comfort is that when people who are like radically on the other side, being like relinquish all your possessions and live a monastic lifestyle, when they come into the picture, they can start a cult too.
They have so many cults they have in their own they have so many yeah.
Yeah, lace extremes, Yeah, extremes, extreme, extreme, Yeah extreme.
I do love yeah, And we talk about that. I do love your book Cultish that is already out, and well when this releases, your new book will be out too. But I do I love your where you like take it at the end, like what are the cults of
our modern age? And really and thinking like, oh, we're not like the sixties and seventies, like we don't have stuff like that anymore, and and really diving into like what what is where we're going and how financially like how much money it will require of us if we continue down the way totally.
And there was like a direct line between those ideas and the new book too, because for Coltish, I kind of had to like stick to the thesis and framework of Colds. But with this new book, I was kind of able to apply those same ideas to everyday life in a way that's a little bit more accessible and relatable. And the whole, that whole transition from Cultish to this project felt like really natural and really fun to me.
Yeah, do you want to know another transition that is really natural?
And every week, Oh what great nice haway, really good one the week.
That's right, it's time for the best minute of your entire week.
Maybe a baby was born and his name is Williams.
Maybe you paid off your mortgage, maybe your car died and you're happy to not have to pay that bill anymore. That's bills, butfalo bills, Bill Clinton, this is the bill of the week.
Whoa yeah, we said with you every yeah, Amanda, every week we yell at our guests to share with us their billy and we are so so here to hear yours.
We've got a little taste of it before we hit record, so excited to hear.
Let me preface my bill of the week by saying that in order to communicate it, I had to first google the difference between a beak and a bill, and a quickie Google search told me that they're synonyms. A beak and a bill are the same, So.
We said we'd allow it. Yes, we will allow synonyms.
My bill of the week akaa. My beak of the week, which is fun because it rhymes has to do with the bills of the peacocks that run free at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery near my house. So, this famous cemetery in Hollywood where like Burt Reynolds is buried and Marilyn Monroe is buried, is a very very beautiful place that I will sometimes go to. Literally just like sunbathe or chill out. You're surrounded by graves, but like there are also ponds, maybe not too similar to your accountant's pond.
There are like beautiful buildings, there's a cafe. It's like a lovely, lovely place to lie. Also during the summer, they have movie screenings there, outdoor movie screenings, which is a vibe. It's a very very trending thing to do in LA. But my favorite thing.
About parks you've got to hang out at the same ary.
No.
I love.
As Macobb and Gallows humor filled as I can make my life the better. But I my favorite thing about the Hollywood Forever Cemetery is all of the peacocks that run wild, because it feels so sort of surreal and and peacocks are so beautiful and famously they have bills. So that's my bill of the week going.
Do you think do you think NBC planted those there?
Like?
Do you think that's marketing?
No, they've been That's that's a I like that conspiracy theory. But those peacocks have been there since long before any of these dim a dozen streamers.
We do love a good conspiracy theory, Yes, we do. We do. We've got to do more spin off podcast.
For us.
We've not we've not peaked.
But we peacocks, man, are so exotic, but they are so many places. My son's daycare is in a neighborhood where peacock peacocks just rome free in this neighborhood peacock at the l Yeah, Like it's just that the neighborhoods have peacocks, but they are so.
Yeah okay, sorry, yeah, But I will relate this back to the sub matter at hand, because one piece of sort of more serviceable advice that I give in the book for combating some of the more negative consequences of the clash between these cognitive biases and the information age is to prioritize feelings of awe whenever possible, awe, aw aw aw on your accent and you know, being in nature and like really appreciating the like marvels of a
peacock and a graveyard, or like roaming free through the streets, like stopping to appreciate the novelty of that, sorry, stopping to appreciate the novelty of that and the wonder of that, and to sort of like connect with the physical world is just such such a lovely way to reprioritize your mental stresses. And so my, I guess my ultimate point in like recommending the bills of Peacocks is that like it, it can you know, very literally ground you amidst like such a confusing.
Time lovely tie in beautiful segue. If any of you all listening have a bill about peacocks roaming in a cemetery, it inspires, or your name is Bill, you own a peacock.
Or just any don't do the show. I don't know if you're allowed to own a peacock.
Visits podcast dot com slash bill leave us your bill. We already and waiting for it. And now it's time for the lighting around pew.
I love these segments. I really appreciate a segment.
Yeah, we we do too, And we do all of our own voice sound effect as realistic as they sound.
Believe it or not. It's just our mouths on the mike.
You would think that we were professionals in LA right, Like.
Yeah, I thought that was the sound designer. I thought it was this real spaceship and a real explosion.
Yeah, well so we're not. We're just here in St. Petersburg, Florida. You know, nobody's called us out there. Yeah all right, So for the lightning round, this is our vulnerability round. What's a purchase that you've made, or you make whatever, but it stems from a cognitive bias. Maybe you still choose to make it or you've chosen to stop.
Yeah. I recently bought this one hundred and thirty dollars led candlestick lamp type thing. It looks like the type of candlestick that a tuberculosis ridden Victorian child would carry around at night. But it's led, and so you can like touch the wick and it will illuminate or de illuminate, if that's a word accordingly, And I'm obsessed with this thing.
It was so overpriced, but it really allows me to live out a nostalgic fantasy of the eighteen hundreds of time that I certainly would not prefer to live in. But I do like to sort of delulu about that. And that relates to a cognitive bias called declinism, which is associated with nostalgia. Declinism describes our false perception that life is just getting irreversibly worse and worse and worse, and it's all downhill from there.
I did not know about that one. You have diagnosed me. You have diagnosed me, Oh my.
Gosh, are you going to take it to the cemetery?
That is a genius idea.
I hope that pictures That.
Is the full starter pack. Like me, a cognitive bias text my led Wick lamp and a graveyard obsessed.
I am looking forward to seeing that, Jill.
So mine is something that causes me to not spend. I'm not a super spending person, but status quo bias leads me to not buy because I think the current state of affairs is fine. It's okay that our door scratches the floor every time we open it. We've lived this long. Why spend five hundred dollars on a new door?
Fine floor scratch there's everywhere.
I am completely with you. I am like so miserly when it comes to necessities and spendy when it comes to these like delusional fantasy items.
Yeah that's I mean, that's all of us. I mean the things that cost a couple hundred dollars that would literally improve the quality of our lives. Can't afford that.
Yeah, but we don't want to pay the dentist. We don't want to change the oil, we don't want to pay taxes.
But I love event expects on a latte? Fully, can I.
Just went to the dentist for the first time in five years.
Yeah, well I got you beat?
Oh really? Wow? Yeah? Okay, So let's say this. I went in there and I was like, I am so ashamed. I haven't been here since before the pandemic. I know that I'm going to need a mouth replacement. I am so sorry because because yes, yeah, honestly, but like she looked in my mouth and she was like, you have four tiny cavities that like barely need to be filled low key, and I was like, oh slick, yes, so that.
Kind of I mean, maybe it's a myth, because you know, we love a good conspiracy theory. Maybe dentists or a myth. But also hardly anybody goes anymore because apparently medical insurance stams our eyes and our mouths not worthy. Okay, so we'll cover everything else but teeth.
That is That is the medical system trying to dull our senses. They want to have unhealthy eyes and unhealthy mouth.
Stop eating and you know a slow decline.
No, not just soup soup, it's big soup. I think it's big soup.
Okay, No, I actually do think that the dentist is a giant scam. Everyone's constantly trying to get me to take out my wisdom teeth. I'm like, yeah, the way that we all once had to take out our tonsiles for no reason, or appendix for no reason. I'm only taking it out if it's a problem. You ding dong, that's not happening.
Yeah, so much passion, so much passion. Okay, for me, it is the overconfidence bias by a mile, so I would always and I don't do this as much anymore, just mostly because I don't have time. But I used to think that I could do any craft, like if somebody else can do it, I can do it. It's so funny because you're not craft I'm not craftzy, so I'm not a DII wire. I am not. But I would see calligraphy and macromay and I bought the things to do both of them. And guess what I can't.
I can't do it, and I definitely don't enjoy it even if I could do it. Almost and this is most recent, I've been getting ads for adult paint by number, and it's been like if this woman in this ad can do it, And it turns like I can't paint, but I can follow directions and maybe that's all I need, you know, Like I can follow directions, And then I remind myself, you are not crafty. You do not enjoy it, and even if you could, you wouldn't want to, you wouldn't finish it.
So that.
I couldn't relate to that more. I'm basically Edward sisar hands.
Yes, that's me just cutting things up, and they don't. They don't look like the or goat me they're supposed to, though treads.
Oh, this has been some goodnerability and such an amazing episode of Miranda. Thanks for being here with us. If people want my work from you, where can they find it?
Can I ask when this is coming out, because depending on that, I'm gonna plug different things.
It is on April twelve.
Okay, perfection amazing.
Well.
My book The Age of Magical Overthinking, Notes on Modern Irrationality is now available wherever books are sold, even in audiobook. I recorded my own audiobook which was so much fun and actually fun. Fact, the little cue of like beautiful music that plays during the introduction of the audiobook, I hate the word fiance, but my engaged betrothed partner person composed yeah film a TV composer, so it's gotta check it out. And then I'm also on tour right now
at the time that this is airing. I'm on this really over the top book tour. My inner theater Kid emerged in full force, and so if you live in Brooklyn, Boston, Philly, Portland, you gotta go to Amanda montel dot com slash events because I'm throwing this extravagant variety show called the Big Magical Cult Show, which is like magical like the new book and culty like the old book. And there are podcasters, special guests like Kelsey from Normal Gossip and it's just
it's gonna be a hoot. So yeah, definitely get tickets a Manamaan Hilda cop such events.
That's so sass. Thank you so much, Amanda, and uh yeah, go get that book. I had so so much fun geeking out over cognitive biases.
Yeah, this interview just makes me smile. I think Amanda is so articulate, so wise in her own right with the things that she's expert on, and I think really highlighted for me just areas that I've never thought about before and how that can play into our spending and just all of life, the things that we can be aware of and how it can help us financially. I'm just excited and it's just fun.
Yeah, love to have we make so many assumptions about life, and yes, that's our brain protecting us from making too many decisions and making us far more tired than we already are.
But it is.
Required for us to question our assumptions and see if they are due to some of these cognitive biases. So I hope that you'll continue to think about and rethink about the assumptions you make in your life.
Thank you everyone so much for listening. We are really loving to read your kind reviews. So some of you keep giving us reviews, which we love and we welcome and we ask for and we want to highlight this one. It comes from I love t dowg with a W. It says amazing, it's five stars, very helpful podcast, completely changed lives financially. Thank you exclamation work exclamation mark.
I mean congratulate you and tea dog for making the changes you needed to make. And yeah, thank you, and please please leave us a rating and review. It helps us look legit, it makes us feel good, It gives us overconfidence bias like all all these good things that we need in our lives.
Yeah and yeah, please leave us those reviews. Then we'll see you next time.
Bye. Gorugle Friends is produced by Eric sirianni.
Okay. I noticed my cognitive bias at play again yesterday. What did I say? Mine was status quo bias. Not wanting to change or disrupt anything.
You were about to disrupt some things this morning. But we'll talk about another episode.
So Eric and I usually do our grocery shopping at Walmart. You heard it, hear, folks not sponsored, because we can get our other toilet tree items that we need there. Like I love all the but oftentimes it's every two weeks at Walmart. And one of the things that we do only when we have to go to more so the toilet tree section, which we did. We needed more toothpaste, Eric needed face wash. That is where the clearance section is for all of Walmart. So we will often do
around at the clearance section. This is about a once a month tradish for us. And you know, I guess just to like tempt yourself a little bit with a little yellow sticker, But I also, as you know, keep a running list of the things that I want to be purchasing, things that I need, and so if there happens to be anything in the clearance section, great, well there wasn't at least for me. Eric doesn't keep it running less, but he's like, there's so much stuff here
that I want. They had all kinds of stuff for boats, like a new boat cover that could work for the boat that we have, new liner for the inside, like hatches that he wants to eventually redo. I think the boat trailer, the covers that the boat sits on needs to be recovered. But none of it people be done. That's so there's a saying the greatest day of your life is the day you buy your boat and the day you sell your boat. And like it's just the truth.
We don't have anything fancy. Don't get it twisted. Don't be picturing like a yacht. We've got a small fishing boat that.
Does the job they might row yacht.
I think it costs, like anyways, it costs so much to maintain, especially with this one who wants to just keep doing stuff to it. We didn't because I'm just like, is the cover we have currently broken? Nope, but we are going to need one eventually in like two years something like that out savings, you know, we need to redo this and that it's just like all it really is going to do is take up space in the
garage that he just cleaned out and we didn't. I mean, it wasn't like he was begging for it either, But that was my status quo bias, just it's not broken, don't fix it.
Well, that's a great bias.
It does help me, but it does It doesn't necessarily mean that we're always fixing and maintaining things to the highest degree.
Yeah, I mean, but it's it helped you with the boat person, with the boat guy. We help you with the boat.
Guy status quo, even if it's broken
Keeping it unremarkable, under promise, under deliver,