Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt.
And today we're talking about buying what you love without going broke with Jen and Jill from Frugal Friends.
Yeah, so, Joel, I don't want to offend our guests today, but Jen and Jill are basically like.
The girl version of us. They just got longer hair. Just kidding.
They really are friends, though they talk about money on their podcast, Frugal Friends, which they started right around the same time that we started Hours I think back in twenty eighteen.
One big difference.
Though they've written books, and specifically they have a new book hitting the shelves in January.
Kind of attention span, do we, Matt.
No, No, The name of the book buy what you Love without going broke. And that is exactly what we're talking about today, spending money. We're gonna talk about all the ways that we're doing it wrong, how to go about spending money in a in like a healthy values driven manner, ways to support those new habits, all that and more. Today we've got a lot to discuss. There are four of us here, after all, all of us podcasters, so I think we're gonna have a lot to get through,
so we'll cut to the chase. Jen and Jill, thank you so much for joining us today on how to Money.
Thanks for having us such a pleasure to be here.
Yeah, it's a full house.
We love it most definitely. We're excited for you, excited for this new book. And but first question out of the gate that we got to ask everybody who comes on is what's your craft your equivalent? What do you like to supli? Joh, we're going to talk about spending here today, what do you like to splour?
John?
While you're still being smart with your money and thinking about your future.
So for me, I think it's a little weird, but for me it's not weird. I buy pre cut vegetables, which in the frugal living space is like a gas Like, why would you spend extra to have your vegetables pre cut? Sounds like heresy, right, But if it's that barrier to entry between me cooking and me getting takeout, that's usually what it is is the effort that it takes to chop a vegetable. I'm lazy. I embrace it. So pre chopped vegetable deficient, I love it. I love either way to say it that's my thing.
I love.
Okay, So my wife she she chops real veggies. Not to brag that thing said. She does get the pre peeled.
Garlic from Aldie in the in the ziplock resealable bag because that is such a time consuming task and she gets all in your fingernails and she hates it. So she's like, I'm buying that pre peeled garlic. Living high on the hog.
I know.
I take it a step further and I get minced garlic. So yeah, I'm just I'm there.
Jen, has your wife beat the efficient Jill?
How about you?
For me, it's paying for car washes still the like drive through kind. But then we've got this place near us called Woodies wash Shack. I'm not paid by them, I should be. And afterwards you can wipe down your car and vacuum it out included in the price of the wash itself and it is a party to me. Could I clean and vacuum my car at home? Absolutely? Do I have the supplies to do it? Sure do? Would I rather go to Woody's Washack because they're.
Playing the cool like beach music and they very strong vacuum.
Sometimes employees even power it's essential. Their employees will help you to kind of detail your car, and then you try and tip them and they can accept tip.
Wow, it's like wood.
Yeah, washhack is a vibe.
I think the other thing that is included in that is entertainment for your children if you uh, because it got the the led all the colors. Yes, my kids are like, dad, please can we go to the car. But then you also get some work out of them. They help you clean the car on the back from back end, So it's it's worth it if you can find a cheap enough place because it hits a bunch of those facets.
I don't have kids, but it's entertaining for me.
You can borrow mine, Jill saying years will be old enough.
That's when you know you've like turned the corner when you start putting them to work and all of a sudden, it's like, wait a minute. Life looks a lot different now than when I used to just do everything for you.
You're starting to pull your own ways.
I know.
I do make my twenty month old bring his own diaper to the trash can, and that's nice.
Yeah, see as progress.
Yeah the drift, Yeah, life back.
I'm curious.
Okay, so our listeners know that where Joel and I stand when it comes to organization or how nerdy each one of us is when we approach our finances. What do you what's y'all take on budgeting specifically, because Joel's like more of a shoot from the hip kind of westerner, like a Western movie kind of guy. I'm like, I'm more like a sniper, kind of rifle kind of guy. I'm very exact zerous on budgeting.
What about y'all? Do y'all have a you've got to similar breakdown?
You've got two of us two Yeah, So I'm very much like Joel, which is so funny because we both Joel and I have the specific personal finance backgrounds like pre podcasting. Yeah, but I am very much like go with the flow. And I think the reason I love values based spending so much is because it allows me to feel confident in my outgo and income without having a really strict plan. So that's definitely more my vibe.
And I like being in the nitty gritty. It's just fun for me. I have a spreadsheet that I created. I like looking at all of my transactions. However, both of our approaches to budgets are that it's like step four or five in the grand scheme of personal finance. There's so much more that needs to come before putting numbers to paper. The way that we manage money, the decisions that we make about spending are far more nuanced than just math. Okay, so it's really not the first step for us.
Yeah, So, like, what, in your opinion what comes first? Because I think for a lot of folks, budgeting, like, let's say you're trying to get fit, it's like, okay, exercise. I feel like budgeting is sort of like the exercise equivalent when it comes to physical fitness. But what do you think should should come first?
Well, I think budgeting is actually the like physique plan. Right, If you have a plan to get a six pack, you then need to develop the skills of exercising in order to execute that plan. Right, So we talk about essentially a plan to develop developing those skills so that you can actually stick with your budget. That's what so many people are missing.
So both kind of tangible and intangible. Intangibly, it is a lot to do with understanding ourselves and kind of what makes us tick, What are our values? What do we enjoy spending money on, what could we care less to spend money on? And tangibly, we talk about a couple of things that you can do before you're even budgeting,
including a ninety day transaction inventory. So even knowing first where is your money going typically what are you finding yourself spending on, can help to inform the plan that
we make going forward. So we say doing a ninety day transaction inventory because it kind of captures the typical transactions purchases that we make, and can maybe even get some of those outliers, the things that don't happen every month but they happen occasionally kind of a thing, and compile that all into a spreadsheet to be able to see where am I spending money on most often, what's taking up the majority of my expenses and might even
be informative on some of the habits or impulse purchases that we tend to make. What time of day am I typically spending in pulsively? At what location am I typically spending impulsively? How do I feel about where my money is going? So even creating a whole other column of essentially being able to journal about our transactions not lengthy paragraphs, but being able to identify, Oh, do I remember where what came just before I made this purchase?
Do I remember was I with anybody? How was I feeling? How did I feel after I made the purchase? These things can kind of help us to understand how do I feel about the way that I'm spending money? Do I even remember it? Did it fulfill my needs? Did it satisfy whatever it was that I was hoping that it satisfied? Did it solve for the problem that I
thought it was going to solve for? Can then help us to understand is this where I still want to be putting my money or are there different ways that I can be allocating the way that I spend, which can then help to inform the budget.
Yeah, now I like that.
And Joe, one of the things you said kind of at the beginning there was you talked about knowing ourselves and how that's kind of important and important first step. And you guys argue in the book that it's you know, the way you're spending money. It's not necessarily a personality trade. I think we tend to think of it like I am this or my spouse is this, and it is this ingrained thing, Like are we spenders or savers because of nature or nurture?
Like? Yeah, is this a habit that we've accrued over.
Time that I think we a lot of people in marketing want us to define ourselves as spender or saver because it's a lot easier to define yourself as a spender because everybody spends money. So if I have internalized that I am a spender, it is a lot easier for a marketer to get me to spend money, especially impulsively.
So I think that kind of perpetuates it. But we also we tend to live for better or for worse in extremes because it's a lot easier to look at things in black and white one end of the spec to remove the other, and that we don't have to process a lot of nuance or a lot of like follow up questions when we look at things in black and white. And so the spender saver idea is that black and white idea. The problem is is that everyone is a spender and everyone should be and can be
a saver. It just depends on where you are at financially, what season you're in, at what capacity you do each of those.
Like what you're pointing to. There are like essentially labels, right, and the ability to sort of latch onto to certain labels, and in our sort of modern consumers culture, I think oftentimes we can tend to let our purchases reflect our chosen identity or the labels that we have adopted. Do you think that that's the part of the problem when it comes to how it is that we're maybe unintentionally or maybe even intentionally spending our money.
It's almost like I'm out doorsy, I gotta get a new super room exactly.
Yep. Yeah, I think that these labels that we take on could even go just beyond how we spend, but how we manage money as a whole, how we think about money, how we approach it, and then how we interact with it and spend it. We talk a little bit in the book about kind of these cognitive distortions to say it in a clinical way or just unhelpful thinking styles that can become a part of our daily living that absolutely impacts finances, but aren't just a financial thing.
But labeling all or nothing thinking over generalizing. We can do these things in all aspects of our lives, but especially too when it comes to our finances, thinking I am a spender or a saver, or you know, everything is all wrong and I'm broke and I'll never be able to make more money, or labeling our situation, however it is that we might label it. I think really being able to look at what have I believed to be true about my situation? What of that thinking style
is helpful, what's not actually serving me? And how can I bring in some reality to the situation. I know for me, I can catastrophize a ton when it comes to my finances. This happened when we paid taxes last year, and it was the first time that the business had shown a profit, and we were an escorp at the time, and I had only had W two's that year, which was also very unusual for me. I'm used to being a ten ninety nine and needing to set my own
money aside. But I didn't that year, thinking oh, it's all getting withdrawn from my paychecks. We're good to go, until I got hit with a tax bill and I was so overwhelmed by this and catastrophized. I'm like, this is an insane amount of money. Thank goodness, we did have money set aside, like it didn't it didn't cost us to go broke. But I then was thinking, if I have another crisis event, this is going to be
really awful for us. So I even told so my husband and I we have scooters as like our second vehicle, and I put a rule on my husband and I that we couldn't ride our scooters until we like put more money back into savings because I was afraid if we got into an accident, then we'd have to pay our medical deductible and that could cause us to go an absolute financial ruin. So I just really went to such an extreme with.
It, just in case we haven't a little a graduating. I know we developed it.
This was it was legit, and I almost had a breakdown in our accountant's office where I'm just like, what, how did I not see this coming? I'm the worst? Ever? How do I have a personal finance podcast? I can't let anyone find out about this here I am talking openly about it.
Now if there's tens of millions of people, nonetheless, you.
Know now everybody knows. But it took me pausing to realize and kind of talk myself through this situation of Okay, what made me think that I wasn't going to owe any taxes this year? And come to find out, it's a problem a lot of people face where they don't withhold enough even as W two employees. It was the first time ever that I had been fully a W two employee. So it's just I just didn't know. I'm not stupid, but I encountered a situation that I had
a lack of knowledge about. But I now know and I can move forward. I did have the money, Awesome, I'm not going to have to go into debt for this. I can make changes. I can actually help other people to be able to understand and protect themselves against some crisis event and their tax accountant office and stay out
of tax prison. But I think for me knowing this about myself that okay, I can tell and to overgeneralize, and what are the steps that I need to take in order to help myself calm down, bring in some of the reality, and start to put action to it rather than just staying in my head and taking on all of these cognitive distortions, these unhelpful thinking styles that are actually not going to serve me well when it comes to managing my money.
And then ignoring it and not paying your taxes.
And just like, yeah, get me, uncle Sam.
I moved to some island where they can't the long arm of the law can't get you right, just go out on the lamb jen. I guess when we're talking about spending, a lot of people think about spending as something that they have to do right to put a roof over their head, pay the car note. Although Matt and I say, don't ever have a car note or or something they get to do right now. This is the spending that's like kind of fun, buy an ice cream with my family or whatever. But you guys talk
about spending as a skill, So I don't know. I'm curious to hear, like why you think it's a skill, and then how we can become like more skilled at spending.
Yeah, it really is a mindset shift, because we're not taught how to spend money. We are simply taught. We're barely taught how to earn it. We're taught that you can get a job or you can start a business, and that's pretty much it. And then we're taught you have to spend as little as possible in order to be responsible. With money and if you can make enough, then invest it. But we're not really going to teach you that either. So that's kind of the extent of
our financial education growing up and even as adults. Nobody online really talks about how to spend money. A lot of the talk in the frugality space is about how to get as much as possible for as little as possible, how to get good deals, use coupons, Bogo, or just deprive yourself so you can live with nothing. And that's great for some people, I guess, but for me, I love spending money.
I just do.
I love getting trees, I love treating myself. I love treating my kids. I think they deserve it. I deserve it, but I feel guilty when I treat myself, So what's up with that? Like, I definitely deserve it. So there there is this radical middle between spending all your money because you have it and being really quote unquote good at spending and then saving all your money, which is the other extreme, and usually that's done out of fear of not having money because if I spend it, I'll
need it as soon as I spend it. So where is this radical middle where we can yes, spend money but also save it and not go broke. And that is where we found that spending is a skill. So if you're going to learn how to spend money and build the skills and the practices you need to stick with a budget, then you've got to look at a lot of sub skills. So, like any skill or activity, to master it, there are a lot of sub skills.
So like to be good at communication, you also have to be good at not just talking, but listening, and it's the same with spending. So we talk a lot in the book about these different sub skills to stick with being good at spending totally.
Yes, I think one of those is curiosity. You talk about that in chapter two. How can that be helpful when it comes to folks learning how to spend their money in a more value driven way.
Curiosity is one of those pieces that we say should also come before making a budget, and it can be part of that ninety day transaction inventory process where we understand ourselves more as we take a cur a curious kind of not knowing approach to ourselves, just wondering about what we enjoy, what makes us tick, what we don't like, what we can say easy nos to and better yes is too. And so when we can approach ourselves with curiosity,
it includes asking questions but avoiding why questions. We've found that the why question can really put us on the defense or that automatic kind of fight mode. It's the difference between why do you want to spend so much with the car wash? To what is it about woo He's washhack that is so enjoyab so much better washing.
Wash.
But yeah, the ones, the one is I need to justify myself and the other is let me dig deeper, let me think more about what it is that I enjoy so much about this activity, this thing, these items, and can help us learn how can we even go further deeper into those things and possibly are there ways that we can meet that value without spending money if necessary.
Yeah, a lot of that can result in some false rationalization where we'll say, okay, well my car needs to be clean, so I need to go to the car wash, and that's how we justify things, and then we don't give space to get creative with how we spend and save money. And so yeah, maybe going to the car wash. You love it, it's a vibe and you can afford it. Then we say it's okay to want to go to the car wash. You don't need to justify and rationalize your purchases to be needs. They don't all need to
be needs. It can be very empowering to want something and then be able to afford it. And then when we're looking at our expenses more as wants than trying to falsely justify them as needs, it opens up a lot more space to get creative with how we meet needs.
Yeah, so I can see that curiosity.
Maybe if I'm thinking, all right, should I spend money on a video game system or on some hiking shoes, I could see say, well, how do I like to spend my time saying, oh wait, I like to get it on the trails more than I like to stay indoors, And so that's that's going to help me make the decision between those two things. But what if somebody's saying, my curiosity reveals and I like fancy cars, but I also don't really have the budget.
To buy the brand new Ribbean?
Like, yeah, how do you help people decipher thinking through value spending when maybe they can't afford things they're into.
So it's great, like I said, to want things. It's really great to want things, but what we value really comes down to our needs. So often when we talk about values based spending, the first thing that comes to somebody's mind is but like, yeah, I like lattes, and like, that's that's what I value. And in reality, values are much deeper than that. They are technically human needs, and so it's very it's very broad, but we have found that we can distill what at least most Americans value
most highlight into four things. They all start with F and then we'll talk about like how we found those. It's family, friends, faith, and fulfilling work. So some relationships with your family, romantic relationships, kids, friendships, just feeling of connection belonging on deep levels. And then also just on like recreational or hobby levels, some kind of faith or spirituality.
And then fulfilling work, so not necessarily like your passion project, but work where you're feeling like you're contributing, that you're using your creativity, you're being able to live in your full potential. Just work that you enjoy and then also pays you. So those are kind of the four baselines. Pretty much everything we spend money on is really truly to get one of those things, and if it's not one of those, it can come down to something on
the hierarchy of needs. I don't know if you've heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but it's like five levels. The first two are basic needs, so we've got food, shelter, water, and then we've got safety and consistency. Above that, we've got psychological so that's where we get into the family, friends, and then we have self esteem above that, which a lot of that can be found in your work, so
it's respect, self confidence, stuff like that. And then at the very top you've got self actualization, passion, creativity, innovation, like feeling like you're living in your full potential. We found a lot of that in fulfilling work and in spiritual practices. So that's how we got to these four f's is looking at this hierarchy of human needs. And so if one of your values isn't meeting one of those four, it's probably still going to fall somewhere on
that hierarchy of needs. When I say I value a nice car like a rivion, like they're beautiful cars, they're great, I would love one, But what I I truly like I want that that's not it's not in need, and it's empowering for me to say, like, yes, I want it, and if I can afford it, I'll buy it. But actually what I want more is relationships with the people I love, flexibility in work, and you know, a community of people around me. So those are really the things
I want first. And then if I'm fulfilling all those things, then I can double check. I can double back and see if I still want the Rivion and see if it's still an important thing to budget for.
Yeah, I see if there's there's slack in the budget. Two things I will say, when you say Rivian, it sounds twice as expensive. I got.
I got dinged so many times when we were recording our audio book for saying normal things in life wrong, Like.
Jen, just say it normally, like it's really nice.
Low's hierarchy of need, and I still say Maslow.
Just as Tomato.
So we've got more to get to with Jen and Jill, including like what do we do in a society that is constantly trying to, especially this time of year, part us from our money.
Uh, We'll get to some questions about that with them right after this.
All right, we are back from the break talking about how you can basically buy whatever you want without going broke with Jen and Jill including a Rivian friends. I'm curious, like I've had a question I guess about self control. I'm curious if you think it's harder than ever today to just rein in our spending because it seems like at every turn there's a company out there that are trying to part us from our dollars. Do you think that this is a new challenge or has it always been the case?
It has all always been a challenge, but never more challenging than it is now in the nineteen twenties, and when like pr and marketing really, you know, after the Industrial Revolution, when marketing really came into its own, it was you had to be at the right place at the right time, listening to the radio or reading the
newspaper to get an AD. And now you wake up and you open a device and they are right there, not just random, but tailored to you and so and there are so many options for types of It's never been easier to start a business or to offer a product or service. So there's so many different types now too, so it can be very confusing to decide do oh do I have this problem? Do I need this product or service to solve the problem? And you just have
to ask yourself so many more questions than you used to. So, yes, it is harder than ever to keep your money to yourself.
Yeah, it feels like a marketing in the nineteen sixties was like, yeah, I want a new TV. But now like the way that they can drill down via algorithms and marketing because of all the data that they have about you can be so specific and you're like, how did you know? Like the algorithms know us better than our friends and family, it seems at times. And then that can I think trigger impulsive spending, and that is
a massive enemy of being able to spend responsibly. So like, how do we counteract this marketing machine and the influx of kind of like proposals to get us to part with our money on a regular basis. Is it part of just kind of like where we hang out and not hanging out there anymore?
Well, first of all, I think it's important to say that we are not bad or there's something wrong with us because we impulse spend. I think that that will forever and always be something that we face. We see something it seems to solve a problem that we have,
and we buy it. That's going to happen. And so in some ways, part of the solution can be to factor that into our spending plan that I want to create some flexibility month to month, week to week on allowing myself to be able to see something and buy it if I want to and not feel like I
have to constantly deprive myself. But from there, I think it can be helpful to identify what type of impulse spender are we because we don't We're not all the same in the ways in which we make impulsive spending decisions. It could be some of the top five that we identify in the book is spending out of habit, spending as an activity, spending as the result of social influence.
The thrill of the hunt can cause us to impulse spend and stress or emotional spending, And so that ninety day transaction inventory can be helpful and identify what type of impulse spender am I? Is it? Am I typically buying things that I wasn't planning on when I was feeling sad or celebratory, or it's the same day at the same time, at the same location, and so it's a habit spending or is it every weekend when I'm out with friends? So maybe it's social influencer shopping as
an activity. And so when we can first identify what is it that draws me to spend in this way, then can help to inform how will I then intersect this pattern that's happening. And each one is going to have a different type of solution to it. So, for instance, if let's say for me, it's when I'm scrolling on my phone late at night and all these instagrammers are getting me and my walls are down, and I've made too many decisions today and I'm just going to one
click buy that thing because it looks cool. If that's kind of where I tend to be finding myself spending the most money, then there's a couple of things that I could do from there. It could mean that I need to curate who I'm following better that Instagram. Social media the Internet can be a wonderful place and have tremendous resources, but sometimes they don't serve us well. But
could I be taking inventory of who I'm following? Could I be following accounts that are talking about more conscious consumption or lower waiste or helping me towards some of the goals that I have, like meal planning and prepping more, and I can follow these accounts that have interesting recipes, easy meal prep recipes. Or it could be that I need to find another activity that's going to provide me
with the dopamine hit that shopping does give us. That finding something and being about to purchase it really does release for us. And so for some that could be instead of scrolling, I'm going to watch funny videos, or if you're an animal person, you're going to watch some cute cats and dogs doing whatever it is that they do online.
Go play some pickleball.
Well, if it's late at night, I don't know if I'm going to go out.
Yeah, I mean maybe you can, but you shouldn't.
But something to replace that action that is of similar value or similar time commitment or similar like doesn't require you to get out of bed and put your sneakers on. Finding something else that you can do instead of rather than just completely eliminating it, finding an alternative solution with your creativity.
Yeah, we say similar sizes, like there are small size you know, like low barrier to entry things and you want to replace those with lower barrier to entry things.
And then there's.
Medium size, and we've got a list in the book to kind of help you figure out, you know, if this is the size of my trigger, then this is the size of my solution sort of thing.
Nice, it's a similar, Yeah, it's getting a similar fix for that receptor or whatever it is that.
You're trying to trying to fill there.
But you mentioned social media, and I wonder like if even more than the algorithms and sort of the different products were fed because like I went in, you've got like TikTok shop and literally you've got folks who are hawking goods and they want you to buy that thing. But I'm curious of your thoughts on social media because I almost feel that the exposure to the different.
Types of lifestyles that are out there, that.
That could even be more detrimental to our personal finances than the one off buying some tennis shoes, which literally happened to me because Vans was like, oh, you love these these shoes, and so I bought those shoes and I thought skaters. But that isn't necessarily going to wreck me as much as following somebody that has this beautiful home.
Oh they live out in Lake Tahoe or there's like these you know, like the different mom influencers that live out like Utah and stuff like that, but like seeing their homes for instance, And I wonder if just that exposure to all that's out there, if that has almost warped our perspective as to what is normal and even that right there causes us to make out like I've altered decisions that inevitably leads to like our financial ruin.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, I think it's more of so I think it causes less of these big life changes like home purchases. But I but I think that the grandioseness is intentional because I'm looking at this beautiful home and I'm like, oh, I know I can't have that. I know I can't afford that, but I can afford this coffee maker that's in her video, Like I can afford a small piece of it.
You can get one step.
Or these videos that have like feature like forty different products, and everybody rage hates like on it. They don't want you to buy forty products from their video. They want you to buy one there, and you look at that you're like, Oh, I can't afford all of these things, but I can afford one thing, and that's the goal.
If their video was reasonable, like in a normal looking house or with one or two products, you're less likely to feel inadequate enough to make the impulse purchase to try to increase or get closer to that aspiration.
Yeah, which is why I think it's so important to then understand some of the deeper need that that purchase is tethered to. And that can be a question we ask ourselves, is what which of the four FS might I be trying to get closer to in making this purchase. We talked with a woman recently who said, you know what, I think my recent purchase from an Instagram influencer for these cute dresses actually had to do with my need for belonging and connection. And that's a really vulnerable thing
to realize and to name. But how powerful to be able to say, Okay, the next time I encounter this, I'm more equipped to know this isn't actually about me needing another dress. I think I probably have plenty. This might be about me wanting deeper connection with people, how do I get that instead?
Yeah, and then there's trade offs when you buy the dress, Yeah, but of not being able to do other things with that money. But you're right, like I think we are often spending money in a moment of fatigue or in a desire to fill some sort of other for lack of a better phrase, whole in our heart. And you, guys, you also make the case in the book for getting
the biggest financial decisions right right. You basically talk about, oh, if you're able to produce your housing costs or transportation costs, it can kind of act as a pressure release valve, which makes some of the smaller purchases less harrowing. Like you know, the book The Latte Factor was super popular, and then there was this whole thing about, man, if you buy coffee out, you're an idiot and you're ruin
your personal finances. And I feel so much more of an ability to not stress about small decisions because I drive a ridiculously old car that costs me almost nothing. How big and important is that for people? And it's the fact that the expensive recur and car payment is preventing them from being able to feel any sort of bliss in those minor purchases.
Yeah, pressure release valve is such a perfect term for it, because when you are focusing on these bigger things, then you don't have to stress about the smaller things so much. And I feel like so as a you know, as a woman who grew up in early two thousands diet culture. And I saw this video recently and I just got a tech. We talked about this in an episode recently. I got a text from a friend who listened to
it and she was cracking up. But I saw this video of this woman talking about how to save money, and she references weight watchers who apparently were saying that the way you lose weight or the way you gain weight is through blt's bites, licks and tastes. And they're like, pay attention to all these small tastes, right, I know, it's so bizarre, but she's but they're like, you can't you basically can't eat anything good or you'll gain weight. And so this woman was saying, you can't spend on
anything fun or you'll be broke. And I'm like, what in the actual heck, Like those small pennies and dollars are not what is causing the problem. The two the biggest problems are the income and your biggest expenses, which according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics for Americans is your housing, transportation, and food. So if we can get if we can really number four, actually investing is number that's a what do you do? It is one of
those BLTs. Yeah, you'll let you decide which one. But if you if we can really hone in on the cost of our housing, the cost of our train insportation, and the cost of our food, then we don't have to worry as much about all the other things. And it definitely takes the pressure off of getting values based spending one hundred percent.
Right, Let's talk about some of the different external factors that we all deal with. How does our environment impact our different buying decisions, like, for instance, can a messy home? Can that really lead to more purchasing mistakes as we are feeling overwhelmed at the end of the day and scrolling doom scrolling and get fed something I don't know, something that we think is gonna like Joel said, feel that that empty hole.
Somebody read the.
Book, Wow, this is nice for those alley. So absolutely we are living within a context. There's this idea that's talked about in social work. It's kind of a foundational concept of person in environment pie for short, because food, And it's this understanding that, yeah, we our individuals with our own stories and experiences, likes and dislikes that exist also in an environment within a context that also informs
kind of how they are influencing and being influenced. So our environment certainly includes our immediate physical spaces, but also
our larger community and where we are. So everything from who we choose to follow on social media, to our friends that we have and how we engage with them, the ways that we enjoy connection to the homes that we have, and the types of neighborhoods that we live into our immediate environment and maybe even how cluttered or how simplified it may or may not be, can absolutely bear weight on what we think is normal as well as how cluttered our decision making might be, how fatigued
we might be depending on how much stimulation is happening around us. So there's obviously now so many different things that could be looked at in that, But if we were to just talk about our immediate physical spaces, absolutely having a simplified environment and that doesn't mean minimalist. That doesn't mean you only have a couple of things in
all of your walls are white. It could just mean that you know what you have, what you have does serve you, and you know where it's located, rather than I have no idea and I don't know where my things are, so I'm buying duplicates instead. And now I feel stressed, and so I'm going to purchase things that I probably don't need because I feel overwhelmed, and this
is the dopamine hit that I need. So we do certainly talk about how important it can be to simplify our environment and how that act can help us in identifying what is our clutter kryptonite, what are we maybe drawn to spending on a lot, Maybe reduce the amounts of duplicates that we purchase, the amount of just decor
the things that we think that we need. Can help us really open our eyes to okay, but what do I have already and start to build some of that contentment and also the repulsion of decluttering that I never want to have to do that again. Oh, I'm not going to purchase things to refill this house again.
Yeah, I mean We've all been there where we bought something and we're like, already have that. I found it like two months later, right after putting the light bulbin or whatever it is that we ordered a second time. And Yeah, I think the more we are organized like it, clean space, clean brain. But I'm curious too, Jen, what do you think like about kind of our overall culture from a self reliance standpoint. Instead of asking your neighbor for a cup of sugar, now we can instacart it,
yet it's gonna cost us a whole lot more. It feels like this is part of it and that and that maybe we've kind of become so bought into this self reliance thing to such an extreme that we're unwilling to ask our neighbor for something, even though it probably actually aids in our relationship, in our friendship over time, and it also helps us save money. Is there something I'm getting in that?
Well?
Yeah, our country was founded on the desire for self reliance, so it is literally ingrained in the foundation of where we live. Is this desire to not be beholden to essentially.
A monarchy thanks piritance, you know, so we have just.
Like taken that and everything so much of technology has gone towards that because it is such an American value that it's very marketable, and I believe that it has been taken to an extreme that is really detrimental not just to our finances, but just to our mental health and how disconnected we can be from each other, and so we are seen like if we're relying on someone that we are not successful, or that we're mooching or just you know, any we don't want to be seen
as a burden. Yet if somebody asked us for help, we'd be more than happy to help them, like whether they're in you know, dire need or just we're willing to ask, right, But we're not willing to ask. And that's just a cultural thing that has been like ingrained in us and fueled by capitalism. And so I think we really need to fight those feelings of like asking for not help, but like connectedness and sharing resources is not a sign of weakness, but it is a sign of wanting to be connected.
I like that.
Yeah, I think I think we could all use a little more connection in our lives. And oftentimes, instead of reaching out to other people, we tend to consume our way out of any sort of little predictament.
We might come so much easier too, right, just to click the button one click to buy, it shows up on my doorstep, even in hours instead of days, and so I don't even need to ask my neighbor next door for the butter.
It's just gonna come to me.
But ladies, we've got more that we want to get to. Actually, we're getting close to Christmas, and so we got some I guess, some practical questions to get to. We'll get to all that right after this.
All right, we're back.
We're still talking with Jen and Jill from the Frugal Friends podcast. We're talking about buying stuff and hopefully just some good advice about to help us be able to buy the things that we actually want without screwing up our finances in the process. And ladies, we are getting close to Christmas, and I don't know, I would be curious to know actually how they had the money audiences doing, as far as like what percentage of the gifts they've planned to buy have they actually bought already.
They're wrapped in under the tree line.
Now, I would hope so those planners, right, But like you know, almost everyone feels compelled to spend to express their love at one time or the other, and that's not always bad, like buying an engagement ring for my wife that was like one of the best purchases I've ever made. But how do you think about spending to show affection, especially during the holidays.
I think you do not have to spend money to make the season magical or to tell people that you care about them. That doesn't mean you don't have to spend altogether, but I do. For Jen and I, we've both made lists of the things that we will spend money on this holiday season and the things that are easy knows for us, we are not going to spend on these things, and that has really helped to free up feeling really confident about spending on the things that
are these intentional. We've already made a plan for it. This is actually going to be fulfilling versus the things that maybe everybody else is doing or it's kind of obligatory. But I've learned I don't need to spend on that to really enjoy this time or to tell people that I care about them. I think that a well written letter to somebody encouraging them, telling them what they mean to you can be far better than some lackluster, cheap five ten dollars whatever that you bought because you just
thought you had to so. And I probably even no gift is better than a TACKI gift, but absolutely being able to identify in what ways could I really encourage this person or build them up. The things that I've kept from friends are the pictures that they sent to me or a letter of encouragement. I can't really tell you any other like small gift that I've been given that I've kept or even remember who gave to me. But absolutely I keep the meaningful cards and notes and
again pictures sent that illicit memories together. So I think being thoughtful this season and considering how can I enjoy the things that make me feel festive without spending where it's not necessary.
And I feel similarly to Jill, but I have a mother who wants to give gifts more than she wants to Like, listen when I say that I don't need one, and there's a mom Yeah right. There's a lot of people who gift giving is their love language and they just want to do it, and so for them, if that's you, then I think investing in local businesses or organizations is a fantastic way to live out that desire
and that value for you. And even if you're like the person is going to appreciate that you invested in something local. So for me, I know, I'm gonna end up giving a few gifts like white elephant or just random peace ball. And so what I did was I went to a local succulent shop and I bought a couple of their three dollars succulents. And then I went to the thrift store and I got a couple you know bowls or you know, cute planters, and I will
plant succulents in thrifted bowls. And so I have. I have invested in two different local like a business and a local organization, and I feel good about that. So even if the person may not like love that gift, I feel really good about where my money has gone in the community.
Very cool.
Have y'all either of y'all set like hard budget amounts for how much you're looking to spend this Christmas this holiday season?
Yeah, I every month put aside money for the holidays because I do enjoy it so much. And I yes, I been right, you know, I'm.
Just follows her heart.
I do absolutely just follow my heart to the original budget budgeting question.
But that's I mean, that's exactly.
What I feel so seen, And I don't know if that's a good thing, but it is good.
It helps me to even look back on years prior. Then thankfully we can do that with the internet, to identify what have I spent on years prior? How much should I maybe anticipate spending this year, What did I enjoy spending on? What did I not this year? My husband and I have decided, even though I put money aside for the holidays, that we are not giving gifts to each other. Last year we did it and we returned both of us every single thing that we got
for each other. That now I'm just like, it's not we're not doing it. That's not going to happen. But what we do really love is hosting people in our home and eating good food and maybe going to a concert or an event of some sort. And so that's what our money that I have set aside is going to go to. We're just going to eat really well.
All right, last question for you guys, how has value based spending changed your life and combined with that, what are your biggest spending struggles currently?
So it has given me a lot of freedom to spend. I have gone back and forth when we were paying off debt, my husband and I. I felt guilty every purchase I made. Even if I'd made a budget and I had but put money in the budget for something I still spent. I felt guilty spending on it because it wasn't the quote unquote best use of the money. And then once we were done, I couldn't get myself to spend money because I was like, we now we
got to reach financial independence and invest it all. But then I ended up just reverting to my old ways of like mindless spending for a little while, and I was like, I'll just make as much money as possible. And so it was really in that season where I had to just I like, what is enough? What is
enough to earn? What is enough to spend? And once I started asking myself nuanced questions and started rewriting the rules that I had, you know, been reading through all these personal finance books and started innovating and making my own rules. And that was values based spending. Values based spending isn't a set of rules. It is a guideline essentially,
a framework to help you make your own rules. And that created a lot of freedom for me to say yes to more things that I value, and also to say no to things that, yeah, I may like and I may value, but I know I value something else more and I don't feel deprived. I just I want to live the fullest life possible, and I've defined what that.
Is for me. I'm going to steal all the word that Jen just used, but I would agree that it is. It is freedom and flexibility for me, not just for myself, but I think for those around me. Recognizing that spending and managing money is not a one size fits all.
I think values based spending recognizes that and creates room for everybody to find their own kind of radical middle the things that they want to spend on and feel really confident in their money management, and that it's okay if it looks different for me than it does for
Gen or anybody else. And I think has really increased my confidence in the money decisions that I make, my intentionality, the way that I consume, to not feel guilty about spending wildly on travel, but being okay with being a one vehicle, household, and hardly ever buying new clothes because I've really identified it's okay if you think it's not frugal for me to have the most expensive travel plans, but here's where I make it work for our situation.
So I have really loved kind of leaning into that and and just the confidence that it brings. And I would say the area of spending that is still a sore subject for me. It's always going to be food. I've definitely given myself a lot more freedom in Okay, this is just the amount of money that I like to spend on food. I think other people would balk at the amount of money that I spend for two people,
but it it is what works for us. But I'm I'm constantly in this ebb and flow of all right, we got to rein it in.
I think it's a sore subject for like everyone too right now, Like partly it's the past four years especially, Yeah, so like partly everyone looks at that and they're like, man, they're beating themselves up, even though it's just market conditions to a certain example.
Yeah, I think my biggest struggle is never thinking that I earn enough, even if the income and expenses are aligned, but I've just always been a like income is never enough, sort of like mindset always growing up the we never make enough money, and so I still struggle with with that part, which is why I'm not like a earn money online influencer or anything.
Well.
I think somebody wrote in a book that maybe creativity is the solution, Jen, but I don't know if you could find that and buy what you love without.
Going I mean, my full time job is a podcaster.
So yeah, I appreciate y'all sharing, and I love what y'all are saying here and Jill specifically you talking about y'all being a one car family, have an old old ready clothes.
Addio.
But I think I may have overstepped. I apologize just making my own shower. It's hard to look at you, but we really appreciate y'all coming on.
We're going to make sure to link to the book, which comes out January seventh, by What you Love Without Going Broke. And Jen and Jill thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.
Thanks for having us. It's been a blast, so fun.
All right, Matt, that was good combo.
It was great, Man and the jol and Matt equivalence over there at right, the Frugal Friends.
Podcast are our spirits sisters, that's for sure. Totally all right, So what what was your big takeaway from this combo mine?
I guess this is a takeaways.
It's funny because I'm going to push back like the tiniest little bit, which is so contrarian because literally everything they say. It's funny because like last week, we talked with somebody who everything she said we kind of disagreed with at least, you know, when it comes to traditional person where we came to some of the conclusions from yeah yeah, but like literally everything Jen and Jill are saying, it's like, I mean, totally within the wheelhouse of what
we talk about here on the show. But at one point when we're talking about I forget the context. But they were hating on the why question, like why do.
You spend money on this?
And I don't and I want to push back just respectfully, and they're not even here to defend themselves, but I think it's okay for us to ask the question why. But it's it all comes down to, like the tone and the attitude in the heart behind the self examination, or like.
Don't call yourself an idiot while you're doing it, yeah, or like.
There's a big difference between thinking through, man, why do I want to spend money on that? Right?
Versus why would you spend money on that?
Like there's there's a massive difference there, and you can be a curious are an angry why exactly? And so maybe that's what we were talking about. Maybe we were talking about the curiosity aspect, one of the sub skills when it comes to spending money in a healthy way. But I think it's really important for us to ask the question like why, like what is it about this thing?
Because what you're doing is you're you know, you're peeling back the layers of the onion, trying to get at the root of the thing, as opposed to just being satisfied on the surface with a purchase that may or may not cost you a ton of money, but in real maybe there's something a little bit deeper down. Maybe you can get closer to the root of the issue,
and maybe that doesn't even cost money. It's totally okay to spend money, but it's I think, like they were talking about, really important to identify why it is what it is that we're seeking to modify to fulfill, to find fulfillment, and you know with some of these different.
Purchases that we make.
Yeah, I think my big takeaway that was when Jill talked about pie.
She said person in environment. Uh huh. I love that.
I thought it was so good and she she specifically called out clutter kryptonite, and I was like, oh man, this is so interesting how the environment we find ourselves in were humans, right. But you can put yourself in one situation and it's incredibly stressful, and you're going to react in one way, and you can put yourself in another situation that's incredibly soothing, and you're going to react in another. If I'm hanging out in a hammock or if I'm in an escape room, I'm going to act
differently in both contexts. And so I think where we place ourselves matters. The things that we're putting in front of our eyeballs constantly are attracting our attention, then they're suddenly changing the way that we think about life. What matters, What how are spending is going to impact our happiness.
My mom Matt always used to say when I was a kid, garbage in garbage out, And I think as a culture we're in wise, we're putting so much garbage into our lives, into our brains when it comes to what we're consuming, and the people were following on social media and stuff like that, And then if we were just to reduce the amount of garbage going into our brains, there's a good chance we'd keep more of our money in our wallets too.
Totally agree, man.
The beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode was a ten fitty, which is an Imperial Stout by Oscar Blues Brewery. Another one we recently had on we didn't have on We enjoyed a Dale's Pale Ale. Yeah, but this is yeah, like I said, an imperial stout. What'd you think, man.
This is what a classic stout is supposed to taste.
Like, yeah, it is big, burly, it's roasty, it's not fancy, like he doesn't have all these adjuncts and stuff added into it. But it's legit.
I like that you said, Burley, this is like a lumberjack of a stout, Like, yes, this is what you imagine, like a two hundred and eighty pound lumberjack.
Like it only does a couple things, but it does it really well.
Right wielding a big ax after a long day of chopping down trees is the beery drinks.
And looking awesome while you're at it. No, yeah, I wrote down it's dark and oily like it's almost kind of slick, which then made me think of like, not like slick as in Weasley, but like, I don't know oily, And it also made.
Me think of soy sauce, Like this beer.
Had almost like a soy sauce kind of undertone, which I think there's a lot more soy sauce in my life than there is a lifel But you'll just have to take my word for it. But soy sauce in the best kind of way when it comes to a stout.
But I like soy sauce, but I don't imbind it merely as much. Don't go through as much of it. You guzzle that stuff.
Yeah, just before we recorded this episode, took my six ounces. Yeah, but always do that right after lunch. Here you go, No, I don't, but we do go through a good amount soy shots in our Household of six.
But that is going to be it for this episode.
You can find our show notes up on the website at howtomoney dot com, and we will be sure to link to Jen and Jill's not not only their book, but also their podcast if you want to check it out as well. For sure, Buddy, that's going to be it for this one. Until next time, best friends out and best Friends Out.