Well, it seems that one of the hardest things for couples to talk about is physical intimacy. And if this is an uncomfortable topic for you, we certainly get that. But I'm glad you tuned in because we have help. I'm John Fuller along with Greg Smalley and his wife Erin. And they lead the Focus Marriage team. Both are counselors. And Erin, I'm going to turn to you. What are some of the common views that couples have as they enter into marriage about the sexual experience they're about to have?
always fascinating to me to hear just the beliefs that individuals come into marriage with about sex, because a lot of them have been handed down or they've read something or they've heard something at church or, you know, there's all these beliefs, you know, that.
that sex should always be spontaneous and effortless. One of the biggies is men always want sex more than women, in that women are less interested. And it's interesting because the research says something very different. That is not always the case. Great sex happens naturally without any communication or guidance. And it's always wonderfully pleasurable. Yes, and it's perfect. It's picturesque. Sex is only for procreation.
Really? You've counseled some couples who think that? Yes. Wow. So it's just exploring what do I believe about sex? What beliefs am I bringing into my new marriage about sex? Well, can we go ahead and turn now to Dr. Julie Slattery. She's got a whole ministry to address intimacy in marriage. Julie spoke with Jim Daly and me about struggles that she herself faced in this regard in her marriage. We're talking about this issue of sexuality and marriage, and Julie, it's not a theoretical topic.
for you and I so appreciate your own vulnerability in the book you talk a lot about you and Mike and that's so refreshing I understand that you and Mike struggled for many years that's what you mentioned the book maybe 15 years before you started to really figure out how to deal with some of these core issues. That's
probably really typical of all of us, maybe longer, 20, 30 years. But describe that kind of desert and then finding an oasis in your communication where you could really dig in and start dealing with things. Yeah, we did. run into some problems early on in our marriage related to sexual intimacy. And I think there are pretty common barriers, problems. And I think where we really got stuck was we didn't have a vision for what sexual wholeness looks like.
And that's what I found that is so common for Christian couples is they know God's design for sex. They know it's supposed to be reserved for the covenant of marriage. But beyond that... They're kind of like, what's normal? And is it normal for us to argue about frequency? Is it normal for us to struggle with things from the past? Is it normal for sex not to be pleasurable for one of us? And so those are some.
of the things that we were wrestling with and we really didn't have clear answers of do we just kind of settle with sex isn't going to be great or it will always be a source of conflict for us and as you mentioned jim it probably wasn't until about 15 years into marriage that god began to show me that there's a much bigger picture here that we didn't see and when you don't know what you're working toward
you really feel stuck you feel like well i guess this is as good as gonna be yeah let me let me go to the bigger 40 000 foot view because gene and i talk about this too because as christians especially if you gave your life to the lord as a teenager And you stayed pretty true, maybe.
perfectly true in this area of physical intimacy until you got married and then there's this like weird switch you're supposed to throw on that you go from like a total stop at the line and then you get married and then you're
you're supposed to just be able to know that all of this is good when you've been told it's bad it's not good don't go there don't ever think about it don't ever look at it yeah which are all healthy things to not do those things before marriage but then then you got to go and it's like wow a lot of people both men and women yes struggle with this I hear from a lot of women that really struggle with this like how do I go from
chastening myself until my wedding night. Then all of a sudden I'm supposed to be the sex goddess. Right. Yeah. It's so true. And there really is a journey. There's a process of discovering what God designed sex to be. And I think within the Christian community, traditionally, we focus so much on sexual morality, sexual purity, which are biblical principles, but we... Didn't teach those within the context of what's the bigger picture of sex.
And actually, what does it look like to be sexually mature, not just sexually moral? And so the couple that gets married and they're like, okay, now we're married. Now we can enjoy this. We're not sinning by having sex together. But what does it look like to grow in the fullness of the maturity of what God created sex to be? And there's no vision for that.
If there's not a vision for it, it's like, okay, now we're good morally or following the rules, but there's still no joy. There's still no progress in learning to be lovers. Well, and part of that, too, it's, again, that long conditioning.
growing up in the church, perhaps, that it's taboo. And I guess I want... to pull that out of you because how specifically I think for women they really struggle with that how to make that transition and some women probably in their 40s and 50s they've been married a long time have still not really been able to
fully embrace that God designed this, that this is a good thing. In fact, I know that Jean talking to some of her friends, they kind of get very squirmish about that. And they just... don't even know how to talk about it amongst themselves because it's uncomfortable.
It is, and some of that is cultural. You talk to a woman in her 20s or 30s today, and she's less likely to struggle with that because she's grown up in a culture where it's more acceptable to talk about sex. You're exposed to sexual things. negative element to that as well but I think what you're hitting on Jim there is so key what I've learned in the last 10 years of ministering on sexual issues is that most of us have the wrong
picture of what God designed sex to be. And we don't even realize it. It's like a backstory that impacts how we think about sexuality. And the metaphor that I use in the book is... Sex is like a big jigsaw puzzle. So if you've got like a 2,000-piece jigsaw puzzle, you have to know what picture you're creating. You pick up each piece and you say, okay, where does this go in the larger picture? But most married couples are actually working with the wrong picture of what they think sex should be.
As always, some great perspectives from Dr. Julie Slattery. And Greg, let's go ahead and just fill that out a little bit more. So I think the expectations about... sexual intimacy in the marriage is going to be different for both husband and wife. How do you bridge the gap there when there are obvious differences?
But we're not comfortable talking about them. It's hard. And when we're frustrated, maybe we're not having sex as often as we would like. I always say, first and foremost, there's a verse in 1 Corinthians 7 that talks about... well, your body's not your body. It's my body that now that we're a married couple in absolutely never, ever, ever weaponized scripture like that to use to say to your spouse.
hey, your body's in your body, so I want sex, and since your body's not your body, we're going to have sex. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'd be a terrible misadvocation. Yeah, I would hope that we're not doing that, but it's possible, and it's easy to take that verse and weaponize it. I mean, all that is is manipulation. Truly, that would be me objectifying my wife that she's just an object for my sexual gratification in that moment. And there's nothing consistent with God's word in taking that posture.
Especially as a husband, how many times am I told to sacrifice? Yeah, we're told to buy for our wives. And that's not to take away the frustration of going, I would prefer us to have sex more often. But approach that not through control. manipulation, go at that first of all in how do I create a safe environment so that Aaron and I can have that type of discussion.
Like both of us matter. Erin matters. I matter. And so I want to talk about if I have a desire to have more sex, I want to create safety so that we can actually talk about that. I don't want to manipulate her, control her. I don't want this just to be about what I want. But there's nothing wrong with putting that request out. So how do we do that in a safe way?
I think another good thing to do is always, if I'm frustrated about their frequency or whatever within our sexual relationship, to create safety, but then to find out, you know, maybe there's something going on for Aaron that is contributing. to a lack of desire or whatever. Maybe there's something relationally. Maybe there's something biologically going on. So in other words, don't jump right to me prescribing why she's uninterested in having sex more often.
How about I ask and seek to understand and do that in a true curious way, not judgmental, going, still needs to feel safe. If people don't feel safe in that sort of conversation, their hearts are going to close. You're never. going to get anywhere. And then now your spouse is behind a big old wall. And always that's our goal to create.
conversations that feel safe to both that we can truly talk this stuff through that's what i desire because if it's sex this time as far as topic it's going to be kids or in-laws or something else and so learning really How do we foster a safe environment so that we really can go to a deep level and talk this stuff through?
And if we can't do that, that's when you go and see a counselor, a good licensed Christian counselor who can help you navigate that sort of conversation. Because again, at the end of the day, the goal is I want to connect. I want sex because I want to connect with you. And that all will happen when people truly feel safe, when we're understanding what's going on. And then we're able to talk that through or to get this sort of help. If I need to.
be on some medication or take some hormones or whatever, then we can do that stuff, but together. Yeah, that conversation is so important. And if you don't have somebody in your own area that you can trust with that kind of counseling conversation, give us a call. We have caring Christian counselors here. Our donors make it possible for them to have a call with you to talk through the issue.
to offer some insight to pray with you and to help you find somebody in your own area to have an ongoing counseling relationship. Our number is 800-A-FAMILY or stop by the show notes. We'll have further details. And we also have a book by Dr. Julie Slattery called God, Sex, and Your Marriage. It addresses this topic of sexual intimacy in marriage very well, very biblically, and you can request that when you make a one.
one-time gift or a monthly pledge of any amount to the ministry today. Details about the book and ways to donate are in the show notes as well. Next time, we'll hear from magician Danny Ray and his wife, Kimberly Thompson, to discuss the team aspect of your relationship. For now, on behalf of Greg and Aaron Smalley and the entire team, I'm John Fuller, and this has been the Focus on the Family Marriage Podcast.
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