Lori: Hello and welcome to Fine is a 4-Letter Word. guest today is John Morris. Welcome to the show, John.
John: Thank you very much, Lori. Great to be here. Delighted from sunny Scotland to greet all your audience and everybody that's here. And I'm looking forward to the show.
Lori: Yeah, this is going to be a fantastic conversation. As I mentioned right before I hit record, I have a page of notes from our original, from our pre-show conversation. So I know this is going to be so interesting. Let's jump into it with the question that all of my guests seem to appreciate, but be surprised by. And that is, what were the values and beliefs that you were raised with that contributed to you becoming who you've become?
John: So my mom and dad really didn't have what I would call core values and beliefs. My dad was very much a person that's, know, as you see it, as you get it. You know, my mom was going with the next popular idea, but it was my grand that instilled a lot of morals and beliefs, as a lot of people will say, took me to Catholic church. And there was for me always something different about how I related to God than other people did, because they would sit there beating their chest and heads down and I was looking up at this 50 foot stained glass window of Jesus. And it was like an immediate connection. So that fostered in me, from psychological terms as well, great grounding to have a lot to build on in my later life.
Lori: It's interesting that you found grounding because a lot of people go to traditional churches and find fear.
John: Yes, yes. I mean, I was a church youth minister for 15 years. I was an evangelist for probably 20 years and a preacher. And I've heard those stories so many times. Now, for me, I should add that I left the church in 2016 because of all the political stuff, all the scaremongering and all the, so do we say the swept under the rug stuff that exists that again, people are just shocked at when they hear.
But I always, know, prefer that by saying, you know, it wasn't that I was leaving Jesus, God, Holy Spirit, it was that I was leaving the institution and sometimes I was leaving the people. But I absolutely agree that there is so much scaremongering there and so much conditioning that's there, which makes complete sense as to why it's thrived and succeeded for so many years.
Lori: Yeah, exactly, because the people in power want to maintain that power and the only way they can do it is through fear.
John: Yeah, right. But again, I saw a post this past week that if the doctors made you better, they'd be out of business. If the politicians did everything you want, they'd be out of business. So people, including the church, thrive on selling. Look, you'll go to hell if you do not have salvation. You'll go to hell if you're wrong with God. God's watching you. You know, all of these kinds of messages. And me personally, I'm just like, guys, you can actually come here and enjoy this. You don't have to be terrified.
You come more out of love and more because you enjoy it rather than, my goodness, I've got to be here and paralytic, you know, with fear.
Lori: What do you think was a factor or what do you think contributed to you having that feeling of grounding instead of getting the conditioning of what most people get from it?
John: So I've always seen the world differently. I've always felt very differently. I've always felt for me, even from, you know, I was five years old when we were talking about that scene. You know, I've always felt that I was here for something far beyond. A lot of time people in life, the what I call background characters or RPGs, it's like, know, they're there, they interact with you a little bit, but that's it. That's as far as they're gonna go. And there's nothing wrong you know, with them as people.
But for me, it was always, you know, why can't I become an internationally recognized artist? Why can't I become a bestselling author? Why can't I become professional wrestler, bodybuilder? You know, I always had that in my mind that there is literally nothing that I can't do. And the problem is, again, people become conditioned in believing that there is as long as you are willing to put in the work and follow the steps. There is nothing really that you can't do.
So I think for me, you know, I don't know if that answers the question sufficiently. I don't know that I have an answer. It's just how I've always seen the world is very different. You know, and again, I just, don't know if I ever bought into the scaremongering and the fear-mongering, because I was like, that isn't who God has revealed himself to me to be.
Lori: Mm-hmm. I love that you recognized that at such an early age. Did you ever feel like, obviously you were different than people around you?
John: Yes. Slightly mildly, but yes.
Lori: So did you ever feel like maybe there was something wrong with you because you were different? Or did you recognize that maybe you had it right and everybody else was lost?
John: So that's a really interesting question. When I was a teenager, there was a big part of me that knew that I was different, knew that I didn't process the world in the way that other people did. I don't know if I would ever say that I ever felt like, oh, I was wrong or this. It really was just my natural default setting. As I got older, as a human behavioral psychologist in training, which I know is a heck of a mouthful, I was the one and I am the person that you can have 50 people in the room and I will be able to spot what usually each one is about because I read people very, very well.
There was family stuff that I was like, this person is gonna be a complete a-hole or whatever because you could feel it, you could sense it, you could see it in them in the body language, in their eyes, in the way that they function. And for some people that took a decade long of pain and suffering before they actually recognized, wait, it's actually right.
You know, so it's, I think it is one of those things it has for sure got me into trouble before with higher ups, especially in the church where people just wanted it to stay regimented. I've publicly said, look, you know, that they, would run youth group now and I'd run ministry different now than I would back then. You know, hindsight's a wonderful thing. And I'm, you know, I'm 10 years removed from, you know, the whole industry.
So, you know, I think you can look at it in a very, very different way, yeah, there's sometimes you just know that you know, and I think sometimes stepping into that and being comfortable with that because it's like, well, for now at least, let's see where this plays out and where this goes. And it can protect a lot of people as well.
Lori: Yeah, for sure. Do you think that being comfortable with it comes with some maturity? Like that you couldn't have it in your very young years because you just didn't have the experience or maturity for it?
John: I think there's part of that. I think there's part as well as a child. Cause again, because of my upbringing and background and stuff, it wasn't always a happy story. In fact, very rarely. I was very isolated a lot as a child as well. Again, possibly because of personality, because of who you are and all the creative side. But I think, you know, who listens to a child? Except those that are very wise and those that are very in tune.
Because again, children sometimes can be one of the closest things to godliness that people ignore. And the way that I looked at it again, back then, it's sometimes you almost don't want to believe the things that are happening are happening. And you can have a hundred people around you telling you this isn't happening, this isn't happening, this isn't happening, but you know it is happening. And like I say, when years later, on many occasions, many, many occasions, personal, professional, every single one of them.
And that's not me saying, hey, look at me. I'm, you know, I'm all right. But it's, know, when you knew, you know, when there's something not right about a person, there's something off. And sometimes you might just smile, you know, internally, I was like, thank you, God. Other times you might be like, yeah, you know, they absolutely. And it depends which version of me you get as well, because sometimes you'll get this version, which is like, yeah, you know, great, fine, whatever. The other times you'll get the version of me that's like, I'm really glad they got what they deserve.
And I have to check that as well, you know, because that's not what I would consider the best attitude towards that. That's the ego side. So you can't have one without the other.
Lori: Sure, Yeah, I can relate to what you're saying because I remember in my younger years saying so many times, nobody's listening to me. And things would prove out later, but it was so frustrating. Nobody's listening to me.
Lori: I completely get it and that the thing is you know when you're a child and you're a teenager I think in fact I know that's why a lot of children and teenagers act out is because they don't feel heard so they go to the next level and the next level before you get it you get the extremes and yeah I think I think listening is one of the most important skills and certainly I adopted that as a youth minister it served me well for 15 years served me well for business and everything so listening is powerful
Lori: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And more people need to learn how to do it. That's a whole other conversation. Because the show is called Fine is a 4-Letter Word, talk about one of the times when in your life beyond people not listening to you, when you knew you were right, that you faced a situation where you said everything was fine and it wasn't.
John: Again, I would go back to my days in ministry and over here we have an abbreviation, certainly in our circle, that fine means feeling inadequate, needing encouragement. And we would have that. Yeah, we would have that with our youth group. Yeah.
Lori: I haven't heard that before. I've heard other versions of what fine stands for, but not that one. Okay, go ahead.
John: But we used to have that with our youth groups. So whenever certain kids would come in that you know they're going through really difficult situations and they say, I'm fine. And it's like, feel inadequate, an encouragement. Or sometimes you just say that. But a big part of that was, you know, family when things were getting really hard at the church and political stuff was there. And they were expecting, especially extended family that are very down the line. You know, we go to church, we don't want to hear anything else.
You know, there was a lot of stuff that was going on and only my wife knows how hard and God, you know, knows how difficult that really, really was on a day-to-day basis because trying to function under that level of pressure and pretending, you know, it's crippling. It's what one of the cases that we've studied over the years, it's what's led people to suicide, to alcoholism, to drug use, to being unfaithful, to going outside the marriage, there's so many things that can contribute to this.
And I've said to my wife, know, we've never struggled financially, we've never had discussions about money. Our problems have always been extended family and the church. So when you get to that position where I'm at now, where again, with that maturity, you simply say, I don't need to be going to a wedding for someone that I haven't seen in umpteen years, they haven't made any effort to converse with us or come down, connect, whatever, probably will speak to us once if that, I don't need to be there.
And I think that's, know, again, all of these different things, you can say, well, how are they all connected? It's like a lot of time people will pretend they'll go to the wedding when they're screaming inside. They'll continue, you know, under the thumb of, know, in the job when they're, you know, miserable and they're just counting the days until retirement or until holidays, until this ends.
And I think sometimes being very honest with yourself and saying, look, this is not my future. This is not what I want. And being willing to do the work to get from where you are to where you want to be. That is where people often find themselves stuck. Does that answer your question?
Lori: Yes, yes, and that first step is probably one of the most important ones is recognizing that this is not where I want to be and I can change it.
John: And also recognizing that feeling like this is not normal. The amount of people that will tell you that as well, I mean, you I'm sure have been employed in certain environments where people say, that's just what happens. No, it's not. It's not.
Lori: Yes, right, right. How do you help people understand or see that this is not normal? Because when you look around you, the majority of people have accepted that this is what life is.
John: Yeah. But that's the thing. We become the stories we tell ourselves. And if you tell yourself, you know, this is normal, this is normal, this is not, you believe it's normal. And that goes, we've dealt with cases before in clinical settings where, you know, it's been domestic violence, sexual abuse, et cetera. And you've had them, male and female, that will say, this is normal, this is not. It's like, and I'm very, very blunt. I look to get to the root of the problem as fast as possible using the person's story and whatever they tell me.
And sometimes I just plainly say, this is not normal. You need to know that. And it's okay to know that this is not normal. You know, it's not normal for someone to be abusive to you in the workplace. You may be tired, you may be exhausted after the day, get it? You should never ever be someone else's punching bag, verbal or otherwise. And unfortunately, there are, especially in this country right now, you know, there are far too many things classed as normal that really aren't and we're working very, very hard, myself, Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, a lot of other people that are out there as well, know, denormalizing stuff that isn't actually normal. It's this deluded fantasy world. Yeah. Yeah.
Lori: If you've lived with that your whole life, that's how you were brought up, that's all you know, how would you not think that's normal?
John: So again, now that's a really interesting turn. It's a really interesting twist. That's what I'm looking for. Because if somebody's lived with that all their life, and again, I can hold my hands up to that and you suddenly find out, as I did recently, this is not normal. You will fall apart. You know what will hit the fan. And it depends how good you are and how resilient you are is gonna depend on how long you take to recover.
For me, it took four days. For other people, I've known it taking 20 years. So you have to, again, as a human behavioral psychologist in training, you have to break it down then from that point of view very, very slowly because otherwise you can actually destroy the entire person.
Some people prefer the illusion or delusion of the normalcy because it's what they know, it's what's comfortable, they know how to function in that. And sometimes that's the best that you're ever gonna get, you're ever gonna get to thrive is believing, look, my parents behaving in this way was normal, you know, even if it wasn't. And you have to tread very, very carefully. So I deal with each case on a case-by-case basis. There are no blueprints out there.
Lori: Yeah, I'm thinking of the conversation I had with one of my recent past guests, Judy Henderson, who had such an incredible, incredible story of having been in prison for 36 years for a murder she did not commit. And we talked a little bit about how she got there and her part in this, but how there's that trauma response that the brain is actually wired for trauma to think that that is normal and that, what am I looking for? The abuse rewires your brain. And so now you have to go and rewire it back to quote-unquote normal. And what kind of process is that? And that's why it could take so long, right?
John: Yeah, yeah. mean, the level of abuse, the level of trauma, your level of resiliency, there is a lot that goes into, I don't even want to say getting a person healed, sometimes just getting a person again to function. There is so much that goes into that. you know, I know that the brain for sure has, again, you call it the flight or fight, the flight or fight stimulus. The problem is if when your brain hits trauma, for the first time, now if that's as a child, it completely re-aligns your responses to absolutely everything that's going on.
And the problem is if you get any scenario that looks anywhere like what that trauma response was instigated by, you're gonna go to pieces. And it's learning how to, again, essentially learn how to cope, learn how to manage. For some people, they get back on the horse and they get back on the saddle and they're ready to go.
For other people, as I say, it's, and in that kind of case, you know, it's little by little and let's see what progression, you know, that we can make each day.
Lori: Are there tools that you share with people to help them do this? Because obviously you can't just go, hey, you know, your life hasn't been normal and this is what's normal. Now go out there and live normal.
John: Yeah, because even that, mean, you know, it's like when people get out of prison using, you know, the analogy from the story you just shared. If you've been a convict for a long, long time and you get out of prison, most people will repeat offend because prison is familiar. It's normal. Sometimes it's easier. The tools that I share again, it varies from client to client. But in my own life, I found become very much aware of what you're listening to, what you're watching, what you're reading, who you're surrounding your time with. You know, everything that you're absorbing is going to have an impact on you in some way until you get to the point of being able to observe the situation, but not intake the emotional stress that comes with it.
And that is, mean, that's a major talent for anyone to aspire to be. And some days you'll get it right, other days, you know, you'll flip your lid. That's part of being human.
The other thing that I will say as well is again, study that which you desire to become. So when I was chronically crippled with anxiety, a gentleman by the name of Wayne Dyer, I know we talked about him a couple of weeks ago when you and I had our call, his everyday wisdom, I had that on for two hours and it was, I don't know if it was the voice, the energy, where it was meant to be, whatever it was, but all of that anxiety dropped. It just, it faded away and that started a major life transformation for me.
That had me looking outside the box, not just accepting things as they are, because I think it is important to really ask the question, why do I believe this? What's really going on here? And if that's your particular path, for some people that isn't their path to tread, but that would be one of the skills that I would heavily recommend people is sometimes you're be able to do it by yourself, fine, great.
Other times you are gonna need people essentially to carry your backside over the line because you physically feel like you just can't do this anymore. And whatever way that you start out on this journey, as long as you're progressing towards that goal, you're gonna learn new things along the way. People talk about breathing techniques and meditation techniques and all of the same things. I think you have to find the best ways that work for you.
And that may not be what the life coaches say, the gurus say and everything else, because you may get to the point where you do all the right things and you're still sitting there saying, hasn't worked, hasn't worked for me. It means that you haven't finished this journey and it's really important to know that.
Lori: I'm so glad you just said that because I've had several conversations in the past few weeks about this with people who are, yes, this didn't work or this didn't work. Keep going, keep looking because there is something you just haven't found it yet. And I'm also happy you brought up Wayne Dyer again here because he had such a calming voice and it's such a gift that we have these recordings still to go back and listen to.
And I'm gonna drop in here just kind of a note for my production team to put a link to Wayne Dyer's Everyday Wisdom in the show notes because it really is such an incredible recording and very powerful. I used to listen to it every day as well. I, perhaps now that you've mentioned it again, we'll go back to doing it because it does bring a level of peace.
John: Yeah, but also furthering that as well, Lori, I think it's not only that, but what I found one of the greatest tools was, and I don't know it's just me, it may be other people, maybe I'm a chameleon in this life form, but it's whoever I listen to, I can almost take on the way that they would think, the way that they would be.
So again, if I wanted to be financially successful, I would listen to the business people over and over and over again. If I wanted to be spiritually successful, then you listen to, be very, very choosy on who you listen to. Don't just absorb everyone. I've maybe got three or four that I will listen to on a regular basis from each niche. And it's, you will find your own way. Allow yourself to be guided, allow things to flow, and never try and force anything. It's one of my absolute life lessons.
Lori: Yeah, that's allowing flow and allowing, like the truth is gonna come through. And it's a matter of tapping into it and not just listening to what people around you are saying, people in authority, what they're saying, but what feels true to you. One of my all time favorite, favorite books is called Infinite Possibilities by Mike Duly. And I've just about finished reading it for, I don't even know how many times I've read it, but I recommended it to a friend recently and she started reading it and I wasn't sure it was gonna resonate with her. She can have, she can tend to be black and white in a lot of things, but she texted me a couple of days later and said, this is, thank you for recommending this. And I think that when you read something that is true to your soul, you feel it.
John: Yes, you know, you absolutely know. And it goes back to that thing we started out the show with, that sometimes something will hit with you that doesn't resonate with your husband, your wife, your mother, your father, your in-laws. And it will click in such a way that you know, beyond a shadow of doubt, for you right now, this is what you need to hear. And people oftentimes, and I've said this to so many people, especially Christians that are very, you well, this is the truth.
And I said, well, the problem with only studying Christian literature is it's Christian truth. It's not the full picture. And I think if you're on a pursuit for truth, you have to absorb and you have to, you know, research many, many different, you know, come from many approaches. And you're absolutely right. It comes down to something that clicks with you. And you may not have a clue as to why this clicked, but it will make sense as time goes on. And that's the position I face myself or I find myself in right now.
Lori: Yeah, what would tell me more about that? What position are you in right now?
John: So, you know, without giving too much away, you know, I find myself in a position, I've been an internationally recognized artist now for the past 20 years. I've sold artwork literally all over the world. And, you know, you think, well, that's it, this is my path. But 2023, I started having problems with my shoulder and problems on my back. And there was just no way that I could paint to get comfortable. And I started to look and say, well, what is next? So again, as you do, if you've got dyspraxia, dyslexia, and amaurosis, you sit there and you think, I'm going to write internationally renowned bestselling books.
And I visualized it and it was around all of that time with Wayne Dyer and the spiritual enlightenment path and things. these novels came to me, you know, not just one, two, three, four, but 25 novels from start to finish. You know, I could sit and tell you exactly verbatim. I was there in my head. I knew exactly what was going on. And the really crazy thing about all of this is again.
For anybody that's listening to this, it only takes one person to show up at a time to change your entire life. So I'd finished the books. These were massive things. There's only two people in the entire world that own the original manuscripts. I am one, His Majesty the King is the other one because I sent them to him. And you know, it was a time I'm looking for an agent and wasn't getting picked up here in the UK. Kathy Von Exe Pitch to Publish Company came up.
And these are people that specialize. Again, you get a lot of these things, a lot of it's guff. Cathy, pitch to publish is the absolute real deal. You learn about the word count for your specific niche. You meet the agents, meet editors, you meet publishers and on and on and on. These are in the industry and big, big names. Random House, Penguin House, Simon Schuster, et cetera, et cetera. So I sat under her tuition for about a year or two and I'm refining and refining and refining.
My book then, in fact, my book now is with Megan McKeever, who is one of the leading top world renowned New York editors in the entire world. I have an agent in London that is also interested in the manuscript. And so you start seeing these things picking up. Not only that, I was building a website completely on faith for this whole thing that is stocked. Again, the businessman in me is like stocked with merch, stocked with the podcast, stocked with you name it, it's on there, original artwork, et cetera, et et cetera.
Because in my head, I'm like, I know this is going to take, I know this is going to happen. If it doesn't, it's a great exercise. But the final thing was there was a company, and I won't mention who they are, that were looking for a team member to come on board. And I thought they've great morals, great ethics. I can see myself working them for the next 30 years, on and on and on. Let me throw my name into the hat.
So I did, and you tell all the things, know, I've worked with many of my producers, I've had my own hit show on the Los Angeles Tribune, and so on, forth. They came back and said, I'm really impressed by your resume, we need to talk. Okay, let's talk. Now, after writing about London for the past decade, I may actually be going to work there, you know, for the largest Christian media company in Europe. And you're just thinking, holy smokes, I mean, this is just amazing. It's terrifying, it's exciting.
But it's what Carl Jung talked about impressing the subconscious where you do something over and over and over over again, and these things do start to appear. They do start to manifest. So that's really where I'm at now that with you, it could be my last podcast that I ever do. And, you know, I've pretty much done my last custom painting after 20 years that I may ever do. Life is built up of changes and, you know.
For every new beginning, there's an ending, but sometimes these endings can morph into something more amazing. So that's kind of where I'm at.
Lori: That's incredible. You've had such an incredible storied career or life. Yeah, yeah. I'm really curious about how you, it sounds like you almost channeled these 25 books.
John: And we're just scratching the surface, yeah.
Lori: Yeah, you know, Neil Donald Waltz with conversations with God. And it was just like he was holding the pen. That was it.
John: Yeah, that's literally what happened. So Neil and I, he was a friend of Wayne Dyer's as well. We've done so many shows together as well through my business partner and former show that I produced for Lori Bischoff. And we had the exact same conversation. was literally, I sat when my office used to be downstairs. I sat and I literally couldn't stop writing. It played out in my head so much.
And again, it was like, wow, my wife is my editor-in-chief here before it goes elsewhere. And it's like all the things are provided for you if you just look around and take action, start noticing what's there and what's going on. And I can't say anything else. There's been times when I felt like, have I maybe lost the thread? Have I lost this now? And then a new idea sort of surfaces and you just start writing, writing, writing. You're good. You know that you can do it. And that's like anything.
You just begin performing these things and everything that you learn will be something that someone else can use. And who knows that can be the thing that leads you to 40, $50,000 a year, $100,000 a year. And if you're smart, you'll use that to build your wealth and your business and your company and everything else. Some people, you're just happy with the 40 and I get that. No risk.
Lori: What would you say to somebody who thinks that the ideas that are, I don't know if it's afraid, but there is an element of fear because they're like, I need the money or I need to figure this out. How? I don't know how, how, how, how, keeping asking, which I turn that camera back on myself too. I ask that question all the time. How is this gonna happen? But what would you say to them to help them get to that place where things start flowing and start showing up like they did for you?
John: Okay, so I would say two things, maybe three things. The first one is study that which you desire to become. So if you wanna be a bestselling author, study from bestselling authors. If you wanna be great at business, you get the idea. The second thing would be, lay out a plan. So what I would do with clients, and I have done with patients before, is, right, here's your goal. What are the steps now that you need to take to get there? So it might be in my case, just begin writing. Even if what you're writing, as it was, is grammatically incorrect.
Get the story down. We can fix the grammar later on. I suppose the third thing would be when people start becoming afraid, it's what are you afraid of? And like you said, know, well, I need to make money, right? Okay. You have 168 hours in a week. Even if you work 40 of them, minus sleep, you've still got between 76 and 91 hours to do something incredible. Don't sit there just watching the TV all the time. You know, use this time wisely.
Just start where you're at. Even if you think, that's not really good. You build on that skill and before you know it, for some people it comes naturally, for other people they really, really work at it. But if it's something you really want to do, hell or high water, do it. Absolutely do it. Still make your money. Learn financial intelligence. Learn how to make your money work for you. Learn how to make 70 grand in a week. It's doable, but it all comes down to learning.
The important thing is all about learning and studying that which you desire to become. That's absolutely paramount.
Lori: I love that. Thank you so much. This has been such an incredible conversation and I know we could go for another hour, but we're not going to. I'll respect your time. Before we go though, you know the questions that's coming up here and I freaking love your response. I know because this this is a, this has never been the answer before. John, what is the song you listen to and you need an extra boost of energy?
Lori: So it happens to be my own song in this particular instance and it is called Art From The Heart. it was a song I was playing around because we needed a new theme track for a show that we were doing called Art From The Heart, where it's basically, I have now gotten so old that I'm looking back 20 years and sharing with paintings, sharing stories, travels, et cetera, et cetera. And we needed a really cool theme song. And I'm playing around, playing around, playing around.
This sort of began to again merge and I was like, there's something here. And the more and more I listened to that, you know, that was the one I was like, yeah, that's a real kickass song. Thoroughly loved it. It's probably one of the best that I've ever composed. Yeah, that's the one.
Lori: I’ll listen to it and we're gonna have a link in the show notes and I encourage everyone who's listening to this show to go listen to this song because it is so good. So good. John, if people want to get continue a conversation with you, where is the best place for them to reach you?
John: So the best place right now is thejohnmorris.co.uk. If you type in John Morris Art from the Heart anywhere on social media, you'll find me. So thejohnmorris.co.uk or John Morris Art from the Heart, you'll find me.
Lori: I will put links to that in the show notes as well. John, thank you so much for joining me today on Fine is a 4-Letter Word.
John: It's a pleasure. Thank you so much everyone for listening again. Study that which you desire to become and hopefully we get to do this conversation all over again sometime in the future.
Lori: Absolutely.