From Panic Attacks to Prime-Time: Howie Mandel’s Survival Story

i was on a live broadcast the howard stern radio show i had a panic attack and i said hey listen i'm gonna pass out right now legitimately i have something called obsessive compulsive disorder i've been diagnosed i'm medicated and if you don't open the door for me right now

going to have to call 911. I thought I was in a commercial break. I saw that this whole thing had been broadcast nationally. It was probably the darkest, most devastating moment I can remember. What if the very thing you've been hiding from the world is actually the doorway to real connection?

I wandered out into the street. And right away, somebody came up to me and they went, are you Howie Mandel? And I didn't even make eye contact. I looked down and I went, yes. They go, I just heard you on Howard Stern. And I just went, oh. shit, what do I do now? And he said two words, me too.

And I went, me too. What are you saying? He goes, I have obsessive compulsive. Thank you so much for talking about it. Welcome back. Or welcome to the Finding Mastery podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais. training a high-performance psychologist. And the idea behind these conversations, it's simple.

It's to sit with the extraordinaries, to learn, to really learn about how they work from the inside out. This is not about hacks or shortcuts. It's about understanding what they are searching for, how they organize their inner world, and the skills they've built to shape themselves. I happen to have mental health issues, which...

were not addressed nor would be addressed in the era that I come from. Really late in life, in my 40s, I was diagnosed. But living with these kind of, for lack of a better term, demons inside of me, I never felt comfortable in this raw.

revealing conversation we go deep into how he's psychology and how comedy has been both shield and a bridge for him april 19th 1977 i went to a comedy club in canada and somebody dared me to get up on stage i have all these strangers just looking at me expecting me to deliver something and I had nothing.

And then I put my hands in my pocket and I didn't have anything to do and I carry latex gloves with me. And when I pulled my hands out, the glove came out of my pocket and I pulled the glove over my head past my nose and I started breathing and the fingers were going up and down and up and down and people started laughing.

and I blew it off my head. The audience roared, and I went, good night. And ever since that moment, I've only tried to recreate April 19, 1977 again. That's why I go on stage. So with that, let's jump right into this week's conversation.

with the legend Howie Mandel. Howie, I've watched you for a long time. I've laughed in my living with you, you know, for years. and to have the moment to sit with you is really cool so thank you for all that you've already given well thank you already for this fine compliment and just uh listen as somebody who started out life never being invited to the party. As soon as somebody has any interest in spending any time with me, I feel thankful.

more than showing up somewhere. I feel that somebody asked me to be somewhere and somebody wants to talk to me and somebody takes any interest. I find that fascinating. So talking to a psychologist, you know, I got to open that up a little bit. So growing up, was it a misfit? Outcast? How did you label that? I think everybody feels like they're outcast and a misfit. I think that what I've learned in life is, you know.

We try with such vim and vigor from the time we are aware to fit in. And the way to fit in traditionally is to be like. You have to be like, as a kid, I come from the 50s and the 60s. I'm going to be 70 this year. But as a kid, you listened to the radio, so you wanted to know what the hottest music was and what you should buy and what you should be listening to. You looked at magazines or...

TV and saw how somebody was dressing or what kicks they were wearing. And that's, you know, everybody was wearing these shoes. So I had to tell my mom to buy these shoes. You just want to be like everyone else. Just by virtue of who I am and my genetics, I was not, nobody is like anybody else. So I happened to be tiny. In high school, I was 4'10 and 89 pounds. and a very late bloomer. I happened to have mental health issues, which were...

not addressed nor would be addressed in the era that I come from. Really late in life, in my 40s, I was diagnosed. But living with these kind of... for lack of a better term, demons inside of me. I never felt comfortable. I was always aware of being different. The result of the issues that I have, ADHD, OCD, depression, anxiety, made me act out in ways that did not... put me in line with what other people were willing to want to hang with or be with. Was it?

a hard upbringing was it a hard go or is this like i just kind of stuffed it down i i played on the surface and i just kind of bounced around okay and i used my humor and one of my gifts to deflect and shield or was it like hard and dark and lonely and maybe it's moments of both of course but i think you're right it's moments of both i happen to be really lucky to have always been surrounded by an

incredibly caring and loving family. My parents were amazing and supported everything. It's just a different time. Was it hard and lonely?

Yes. Did I have a place to go to be coddled and loved? Yes. I think life is hard for everybody. I think life, business, whatever it is, what... We all are looking for, and maybe this is why you do this podcast, is a coping skill. How do you cope with whatever feelings?

you have as a human as a business person as how do you cope how do you strengthen whatever it is your drive to do whatever you want to do your drive could to fit in your drive to be a little more popular your drive to be in that friend group your drive to you know, succeed in business. It was really hard. I think it's hard for everybody. I feel that life, as long as we're still talking and breathing, is a work in progress. And you should be aware of that, that it never remains the same.

You always have to adopt and adapt. And I think we are not creatures of adopting or adapting. That's just our resting place. It's work. It's really easy to just...

This is who I am. This is how I do it. This is where I come from. These are the cards that have been dealt to me. And 99% of the world, in my view, is really unsatisfied with... what they have who they are what they've achieved or how things are going and that's why it becomes part of the vernacular to call wednesday hump day you know because halfway through the week you are getting over the hump of this

Can I use language on this? Yeah, over the language, over the hump of shit that you're dealing with, whether it's a work... place environment that you're not happy with to maybe get to the weekend to not do anything really exciting just not do the shit so everybody feel and that's why we live in a in a world now that is incredibly because most people are looking outside.

for what they believe their own personal success would be. And I'm not talking about financial or happiness. It's the government needs to help them. And if the government's not helping them or they're not happy, they blame it on...

whatever side they want to blame it on. Politics has really tapped into the darkness of humanity because that's a great fuel for them to win. Yeah, I mean, if you look at Gallup's poll and you break... human psychology into three strata there's people that are thriving there's people that are struggling and there's people that are suffering and the the suffering plus struggling is better than 70 so the majority of people are

having a hard go there's there's a healthy amount of folks that are like look i feel like i feel like i'm floating and like it's pretty good i've got a dinghy i've got like you know a drink i'm comfortable the sun i've got some shade i'm out in the ocean it's kind of nice and the majority of people are like i don't understand that picture because we are kind of just bombarded and now in this world with social media even more we're bombarded of what success

looks like or should look like which i don't believe at all anymore we're bombarded with look what i have and you don't have look at what they have and you should have look at what like what is the word success what is success that i think that's what it all comes down to and in my opinion success is personal comfort and i don't mean with money or things that you own or things that you've achieved just feeling good

about where you are, just feeling happy. Just have a reason when you wake up in the morning, something that you look forward to, something that makes you happy. It doesn't have to be something that makes you a dollar. It doesn't have to be something that gets you notoriety.

it doesn't have to be but we're taught that we're taught it's got to look rich it's got to look shiny it's got to be beautiful but i will tell you as somebody who chased that for many years of my life and achieve certain things that you think would make you happy i'm telling you from this side and maybe i'll get

hit for this but those aren't things that end up making you happy you think they'll make you happy this is why i wanted to have the conversation with you is because one i'm enthralled with the idea of mastery of self through mastery of craft And when I watch you, you are masterful at comedy. You know what? I'll give you my phone right now and you could look at a ton of comments. I don't read a lot of the comments, but most of the comments will be negative.

because that's who comments most people yeah 99 earlier point 99 yeah right but they'll tell me you know that's all subjective have i mastered comedy there's always way that you know in fact let's speak fact and truth and this is how i used to look at things i remember when i first blew up

I sold out in an hour the Radio City Music Hall, two shows. And Radio City Music Hall sits approximately 7,000 people. And I was in the dressing room with my wife, and we're looking out onto 7th Avenue in Manhattan. 7,000 people are teaming out.

the first show 7 000 people are coming in for the second show so there's 14 000 people blocking the corridor of traffic there's there's uh cops out there with stanchions they're trying to move and and my wife goes this is all for you what are you what are you thinking And truth be told, I was thinking that this city has, at the time, maybe over 10 million people living in Manhattan. This is 14,000 people.

So 9,986,000 people don't give a shit that I am in town and will not pay for a ticket, don't like me, probably don't even think I'm funny. So... is that freeing for you or was that did that not at the time after this amount of years of life and therapy and medication you have to free yourself in

because you could focus on that i did focus on that and that statement could go two ways there's a hinge between like there's nine million people that don't know who i am like that's awesome like i don't actually matter that much or you go there's nine people that like wow that's not enough man there's there's i got i got more attention i need more because like people need to know me like

there's a hinge idea well there was a time where i wanted to you know i thought that if i make a lot of money and i'm famous those are the answers But what are any of those? One time I used to work with Sharon Osbourne and we were passing a graveyard and she looked at, see all those stones? Who's the richest guy in that field? It doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. And people in my business are often asked, what do you want your legacy to be?

I don't know that there is a legacy besides procreation. My legacy are my children. You could be super, super famous. Walk down the Hollywood Walk of Fame. I can't tell you how many names I don't know. you know in that moment the world was really bright and all about them but that fades you can ask the average person outside of show business give me your great grandfathers

First name. Your great-great-grandfather. I'll give you two generations. They don't know the first name. Of their own family. Of their own family, two generations. So... When you think of the word fame, you are trying to achieve the ability for somebody that has no consequence in your life to recognize you.

nothing but a stranger in a restaurant will turn around and watch you eat because they saw you on TV. Like, what is that? There's no value in that. Finding Master is brought to you by Defender. In the conversations I have with world-class performers, there's this theme that keeps coming up again and again. How we choose to move through the world shapes the quality of our lives. That's about mindset. The environments that we seek out.

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That's linkedin.com slash finding mastery to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. The clarity and precision of your language is really crisp on what matters most. And what you're saying very clearly is what those for wisdom of the ages have been saying, which is like, well, I don't need you to know me. I need me to know. That's exactly it. So there's a commitment to work from the inside out.

To really understand how to be home, at home with yourself, wherever you are, that takes work. And that's why I want to have this conversation with you. Yes, master of craft on comedy, but for you to be porous. with the public world and your private life about mental health. You were early in this narrative. I don't think I was. I think I was late in this narrative. No, you gave some air cover to people. This was 30 years ago.

Right. Yeah. So you gave a lot of air cover to people. I don't even know if you recognize that. And then so I was on the front edge of athletes saying, hey, listen, you guys are seeing this craft. I'm good at the thing I do. But there's something else here that matters more to me right now.

My inner life is upside down. I'm anxious, depressed, OCD, the things you mentioned, and I can't keep doing it this way. So the cool kids, you and them, you create air cover for the rest of us to say, oh, I don't have to have it all buttoned up. I don't have to have this perfect glossy image of life. And that's what I wanted to talk to you about. Why did you come forward with it? And what was the work that you've done to be able to find this?

this deeper sense of freedom and before you answer how before the the mics turned on i said is there anything off limits and you said no nothing what would be off limits what why would something be off limits i don't really understand again in the same way that i don't think there's any value in fame i don't think there's any value in it really i also don't think there's any value in not

Celebrating humanity and your foibles and your darkness and I'm a human being, you know, and I'm just if not more flawed than somebody sitting next to me. And because I've achieved whatever I've achieved, like I got to tell you, I do a podcast with my daughter, Jacqueline, who I admire beyond.

words went to school to become a teacher and she became she's got her master's in urban education and was teaching in uh crenshaw and south central and if you don't know la the real hard hard places where you know i used to sit in in our classes and watch and these kids don't have a pencil they most of them don't have two parents at home if if that they don't have lunches

they don't have anything their hope is that any one of them at five and six years old no knows a really close family member who was either incarcerated overdosed killed and she was the light in their lives. And there are people, she was a kindergarten teacher, and there are people that are in college now that still call her and she made a change. And the reason I'm telling you this, besides the pride of a parent, is I will walk into a room. with my daughter

even today, and people will come up to me and want to take a picture with me and say, we'll give you a free, can we give you a free t-shirt? Can we do that? And I'm standing beside a human being, which just happens to me. my daughter, but I'm standing beside a human being who has legitimately, legitimately changed somebody's life. And I am a guy who is on TV telling somebody.

i like the way you dance and they want to give me so much more she doesn't make enough in that living in that world that she's in to pay for a nice house here in los angeles you know she her husband has you know i'm talking about from one income there's no way she could live in a nice house in a nice neighborhood in los angeles and be an inner city teacher and i get paid way more than i deserve for you know what

i'm contributing to society i'm just so kind of taken aback by you know or people want to be my friend or people make me offers just because i'm on tv You know, you're pointing to, I like that you're taking the conversation in this direction because the easy kind of narrative here is that you said fame is not valuable, I think is how you phrased it. And I'm nodding my head and agreeing, but what fame... what recognition will do is it's a transactional experience that, oh, I do belong. So it's...

very, very dangerous of feeding the belongingness that we all crave. Well, we all, you know, people in my business, if they get a job, and that's why I'm fascinated by even the, you know, I'm not knocking acting, but.

For the most part, the biggest night is the Academy Awards. And you think, oh my God. And we give these people... including myself i've been in movies incredible respect for being picked up having somebody help dress them standing on a piece of tape and saying what somebody else wrote

30 times over and over and over again from different angles. And then somebody sitting in an edit bay and putting that together. And then they have a night where they give each other awards for pretending to be something they're not. and then we give them millions and millions of dollars not only that we want to know who they voted for and what policy they think is important and i'm thinking like who why why

I don't really understand. It's so crazy. So what I found accidentally and did not do, I was incredibly embarrassed. of my mental health weaknesses. My wife of 46 years now gave me an ultimatum 30 years ago saying she couldn't handle me anymore it's really hard to live with somebody who is in in pain and you know feels mentally out of control and i tried to control everything around me you know i built a secondary building if my kids coughed i moved into another

house on the property and uh if they touch something that i deemed was dirty i would force it just she goes you really need help you know and i kind of rationalized all these behaviors and this anger and this depression and i went and got help and i got diagnosed when i got help and diagnosed there was a huge relief that this was this was really something that had an identity and could be

you know, coped with, I don't use the word cured because I'm coping. You're working with it. I'm working with it. And we're all dealt a hand that we have to work with. And, but as a child of. the 50s and 60s, and even today, there is a stigma attached to mental health. 100%. You know, I've talked so many times, like if you're in an office in a public place and you go, ooh, my back is out, 1,000 people will hand you a card for their chiropractor. Or if you're a toothache. And they'll also say.

oh man are you okay yeah i had a backache once too it was so hard and like are you how you doing but when you've got a private thing that they can't see well even if you could see you if you god forbid you just said you can see well even if you just said listen i i don't know what's come over me i can't even function today and i can't stop crying and i'm going to be crying and i can't cope

you know, people back off from you. Or if you said, listen, I just need, I got to go to my psychiatrist in the middle of a day in middle America. I don't know that you would be deemed, it's not as, there's a stigma. 100 100 it's getting it's getting it's changing i hope it sounds like you are not feeling the change that you would like that you see and imagine and i agree with you i think the people that need the most help it is it is you know just like

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And we have this stigma attached, and what happened was I was on a live broadcast, the Howard Stern radio show, I talk about it in my book, and I didn't want to touch the doorknob to leave, and they were... having fun you know i'm a comedian so they were having fun with the fact that i couldn't touch the doorknob and they kept trying to make me grab it and i started i had a panic attack and i said hey listen all kidding aside i'm gonna pass out right now

And I feel like I'm going to die. And Howard, legitimately, I have something called obsessive compulsive disorder. I've been diagnosed. I'm medicated. And if you don't open the door for me right now, you're going to have to call 911. And they opened the door for me. And when I walked out in the... the hallway i thought i was in a commercial break i saw that this whole thing had been broadcast nationally and my it was probably the darkest most devastating moment i can remember

in in my history because i thought oh my god i just confessed nationally on radio that i'm a mental health patient and uh number one my first thought went to my poor kids Everybody's going to say at school that your dad's a mental case. I've just embarrassed and shamed my entire family. Number two, I'm never going to work again. Why would anybody hire all these? any job that i have i don't know if people are aware of but even in show business you know even on agt

There's an insurance policy on you. You know, there's a, you know, if something should happen. And they usually, when you start a new job, you'll even have a medical checkup. Kind of, you know, it's just. It's not anything. But if you have a diagnosed mental health disorder, they're probably never going to hire me again. So I'm an embarrassment to my family. I'm unemployable. I don't know what to do. And I wandered out into the street.

And right away, somebody came up to me. I couldn't even make eye contact with somebody in this teeming sidewalk of Manhattan within seconds of me coming out the door. And they were.

are you howie mandel and i didn't even make eye contact i looked down and i went yes they go i just heard you on howard stern and i just went oh what do i do now and he said two words which meant something different then than it means now but he just went me too and i went me too what are you saying he goes i have obsessive compulsive so thank you so much for talking about what do you what do you mean he goes it was so comforting to hear that you know

In our own heads, regardless of whatever our mental issues is, we're all alone. We all feel like nobody really... And we don't. Nobody really sees things the way you see things. Nobody feels exactly like you feel. So it is very lonely. And when you're suffering, you feel very alone because nobody can feel what you feel. So for him to say, me too, and that really helped, he had no idea how much he helped me to say,

I'm not alone. What you feel, the thing that I described, you've been diagnosed too? And you're going through this and you're out here and you're willing to talk about it? I wasn't willing to talk about it. Well, now I have a friend. You just threw me a life preserver. And then I went home and-

And within weeks, this was before the internet, I started getting hundreds and hundreds of letters from people. who were saying thank you and every letter made my life and my mind a little bit lighter a little bit brighter a little bit so i realized for my own sake you know i'd like to

come off a little more altruistic, but I'm not. For my own sake, they helped me. And anybody who comes up to me in the street today and says, oh yeah, thank you for talking about it, or I have it too, or my kid talks about it, or is there anything you could suggest?

you have no idea how wonderful that's like strangers coming up and hugging i don't want you to hug me but that's a real verbal mental hug yeah so again thank you because uh you create air cover you've created space it's an accident that you that you stepped into this yeah but the fact that you continued and you owned it and what serendipity is like a thing i don't know how to explain it but for someone to walk up and say that to you

It's remarkable. I believe in it. You do? I do. I would imagine, though, there's a little bit of a trap, and I don't know if you've kind of navigated this trap door or you're still flirting with it, which is... When somebody says something to you, thank you, amazing, you've helped me so much, that that reinforces and gives you a validation that you're okay, as opposed to from the inside out, the knowing that...

I'm at home with myself and I am who I am and I'm working my very best. There's a stability to the inside out approach and there's a fragility requiring the outside in approach. And if you could just open up the aperture there a little bit about.

how delicate it is for you or how sturdy you feel well i'm not stir i i've used this term i said i've become very comfortable with discomfort discomfort is the major unlock this is a major unlock for for people to understand i do want to stay here stand-up comedy has been is my comfort zone

because it's really uncomfortable. And my analogy is this. That's okay. Sorry, I'm interrupting. I've been told not to interrupt. Go ahead. I've been scarred by my people a little bit, but right here, this is the thing. This is the through line between mastery of craft and mastery of self, your commitment to be uncomfortable on both sides. So I do want to understand that as well. So there's three things I want to understand.

will you remember you promise you remember where you were yeah okay keep going this is awesome so i've become comfortable with discomfort and if i had to use analogies if you find a passion in something you're excited about And that should just be for most people what we should try to find is life. That should be what you're passionate about. And life is ebbs and flows. and it's hard but if you wanted to put it in a much more visual tone if you just love boxing

You want to be a boxer. Boxer is your life. You love the sport. You love the physicality. You love the challenge. You love the competition. It's your life, and that's what you want to do. That's a choice you made. then I will tell you, in order to box, there's going to be moments when you can't even catch your breath. There's going to be moments when you're going to be punched in the face.

God damn hard that your lights are knocked out, you know, and you're just going to be lying there and they're going to be counting. You can't let the count out. You got to get up. You got to get up. If this is what you want to do, and the analogy is a boxer, life is a fight. And if you want to fight, it's going to hurt sometimes. It's going to be so joyful when you connect and you win and you knock your opponent out or you go up and you get the belt or if you hit the weight, like whatever you.

need to do to succeed if that's a word that you know succeed is is such an open framed word but that's what life is and life is a constant fight and a constant kicking. Life is like a river and you're flowing. You're never in the same place. I'm not in the same place as I tell you this story and I articulate whatever it is that I'm trying to articulate as I was when I sat down and you said hello.

You know, I'm in a different place right now and everything is different and everything around me is different. Nobody's in the same place. You've moved on in whatever the interesting question is. The listener is not in the same place. So I got to constantly.

navigate we all are and tread life and that's how you go and if you stop treading and it's easy to stop treading and we all stop treading in different ways you drown and you want to keep your head above the water in life And in relationships, you know, whether it's in marriage, whether it's in your business, whether it's just in your survival, whether it's just in your contentment, if you can be content, and I'll tell you.

I found stand-up comedy. I was miserable most of the time. And I went to a comedy club in April 19th, 1977. I went to a comedy club in Canada, Toronto. Yuck, yucks. Because somebody said, let's go. I was with one or two people and I watched standup. I'd never seen live standup before live. I'd seen, you know, Carlin and Dangerfield and all these people on, but I never aspired to do that. I mean, it didn't.

doesn't even seem like something that this middle-class kid from toronto i have nobody in show business it doesn't seem like something that you even think about and the host mark breslin said if there's anybody who thinks they can do this we'll service an amateur hour i think it was at midnight i can't remember what it was does anybody want to do it and somebody at the table went you should go up

And I went, okay, like I always do. Like I said, okay to this. I say okay to everything for fear of missing out. And which is also a problem and a gift, you know, because I- Because you say yes.

but for fear of missing out i get very little sleep because i'm on the internet all day long because i don't want to miss anything i feel like the world's going much faster than i am and it is and it's scary and i'm constantly treading but i said okay did not really prepare thought it might be funny because somebody dared me to get up on stage that somebody was going to go ladies and gentlemen howie mandel and then i'd show up

And that would be funny. And that'd be the joke. And that would be the story. I did. I showed up and I went, ladies and gentlemen, Howie Mandel. And if you look at old tapes of what I used to do, I didn't have any preparation. The audience applauded.

I'd never been on a stage before. I'm looking at the microphone and I look out and there's spotlights in my eyes and it's blinding, but I can see the audience applause dies down. I can see the people in the front and now they're just staring. I have all these strangers just looking at me. expecting me to deliver something and I had nothing. And my whole being was surging with terror and embarrassment.

and just this nervous pulsing of like i'm not delivering it's like that nightmare when you show up at a party in your underpants you know people talk about all these scary things you know i show up at a party and i was the only i was naked at the party and you know that's what you feel like and the nerve

took over and i started without even thinking and no plan i started going okay okay okay okay all right and i was giggling and terrified and i think the audience related without being able to articulate this the audience related to my terror and discomfort and i was going okay okay okay and they started giggling maybe because they were uncomfortable and then when they started giggling i started going what what

what and that kind of became my catchphrase and then i put my hands in my pocket and i didn't have anything to do and i carry latex gloves with me did at the time because if i was out in public and i had to go to a public restroom i didn't want to touch anything because i had ocd i didn't know i had ocd

I just wanted to remain clean. And when I pulled my hands out, the glove came out of my pocket. So I didn't know what to do. I was terrified. And I pulled the glove over my head, past my nose, and I started breathing and the fingers were going up and down and up and down. And people started laughing.

and then I blew it off my head and the audience roared and I went, good night. And I walked off stage and Mark saw me in the hall. He goes, you gotta come back and do it tomorrow. And I go, do what? And he said, do what you did. And I went, okay. And then I started.

showing up there every night it was the first time a large group of strangers we were for whatever reason on the same wavelength laughter releases an endorphin everybody in the room nobody knew me but everybody liked me we were all having fun i was terrified it was like being on a roller coaster i love roller coaster i love thrill rides because that adrenaline the scarier it is the higher it is the closer to death the faster it is the more exciting you go i want to ride that again and

Ever since that moment, I've only tried to recreate April 19, 1977 again. That's why I go on stage. That's why I do what I do. it's never that exciting anymore but i would go like i'm on tour all the time and people people always say uh how are you i used to love when you did stand-up comedy you know i never stopped

I want to take a second here to tell you about a morning routine that I've been using for years. For me, it's a great way to switch on my mind, to ready myself to take on the day. So before I check my phone, my emails, market updates, or text threads, I choose how to start my morning. That's always in my control. That's always in your control too. This is the same morning mindset routine that some of the world's top performers across sport, business, and the arts are using.

The best part, it only takes about 90 seconds to do. So just head over to findingmastery.com slash morning to download the audio guide for free. Again. Head to findingmastery.com slash morning to get your morning mindset routine. But during the 80s and 90s.

i did like 10 hbo specials and all these cable specials i have no desire now to do a netflix special or any of these things that my fellow comedians do i love three, four times a week, and I do it, dropping in at the comedy store, at the Laugh Factory, at the Ice House, at the Improv, and just doing a set for, I just, I love stand-up comedy.

i still do it are you scripted or unscripted because this is pretty much you know listen i love coming up with a routine that works i love that art of coming up of being a wordsmith and and writing something that if i repeat it it'll definitely trigger strangers to respond to me i love the idea that's a craft i love the idea of being

taken off the script and being scary, like not knowing where they took me. Power goes out in a room, that's great. Somebody shows up, somebody makes a noise, somebody throws up, the mic goes up. I love that. That's so exciting.

and people go you should do a special and i go well why why i don't need to be more famous i don't need to be on tv i just want to do this i i'm really comfortable with just showing up somewhere and if i had to be a server someplace in a restaurant to pay my rent but once twice a week i could show up at a in a little club and do that that is such a happy place you have no idea and i'm aware of i don't have that need and i don't have the need i'm lucky to do it for

i still do it for big money but i don't have the need to do it for the money or for the notoriety i just like doing it I get how that squares with ADHD, the spontaneity, that whole mix is probably well suited for the way that you're able to network thoughts. How does that work with OCD?

OCD, I've had to, you know, and continue to have to cope with. You know, I'm a dichotomy, you know? As somebody who doesn't want to be touched, doesn't want to touch, doesn't want to be in public, it's hard for me. What are you craving? Deepest down in your heart, what are the things that you're craving? Contentment, just to be okay, just to feel okay, to not have fear. Fear is a driving force.

And what is it that you're afraid of? Something bad happening to a loved one. Is that why you work to control so much? I don't know. You tell me. I don't know either. I just feel like as much as you think you have control, this is so much, this being existence is so much bigger than us. You try to control, you know.

It's scary. I have three children and three grandchildren, and those are the most important things in my life. The dichotomy is a really good word for you because you've got this spontaneity. thrill kind of thing that you experience and then ocd is really in this anxiety meets control bit but then you were talking philosophically about like look life is a river we are different from the moment we said hello so

So intellectually, you're spot on with the unfolding nature of life. And then there's another part of you intellectually or maybe mechanically in your brain. It's like, no, but don't touch me. Don't be close. Don't do this. Don't sneeze. and because you become uncomfortable with it. But that is a natural unfolding thing that can also fit into your philosophy. Right, except that the thrill...

And putting myself in uncomfortable positions and just being on that is a panacea for keeping me in the moment. I'm not focused. I don't like quiet. And if I'm in the quiet, then I'm worried.

and i'm scared and the fears that we all think about what's going to happen next because something's going to happen next and when that pops up when you are on that drop on a on a roller coaster when you're coming down that's i'm not yeah that's right and that's what stage does for me that's exactly right you know so i spent a good part of 10 to 15 years working with some of the most extraordinary risk takers on the planet felix baumgartner who was red bull stratos

we jump from the edge of space at 128 000 feet and the brightest minds in aerospace we're not sure when he passed through the sonic experience if his head and torso would do mach 1 speed of sound if his arms and his legs would have a drag on them if they stay intact or not and we just lost him he just passed away his dear friend and he showed us how to live to our edges and this is why in the same spirit you're living to your edges

try and yeah you are so how do you organize your inner life to get up for the edge it's an adrenaline you know it's um Okay. I'll give you an example just based on my business. I told you how I got into the business, but then it became very corporate. You know, I worked for a lot of corporations and I felt like very... tied this is how you do it and then it can become very repetitive about 20 years ago i called my son over the summer holidays and he was 16 17 years old and i've always taught my

kids just don't be idle just like be productive and i don't mean make a lot of money i mean just do something productive so i called him at three o'clock in the afternoon one day a weekday and i woke him up and i said Alex, this is my son's name. I wouldn't use a different name because then he would be confused. But I said, Alex, you got to get a job. I can't be waking you up at three o'clock in the afternoon. It's not healthy. It's not healthy.

And he goes, I was working all night. I said, how do you work all night and I don't even know that you have a job? What were you doing? And he says to me, this was 20 years ago, he says to me, YouTube. And I said, YouTube? YouTube, you can scroll through on your phone. What do you mean you're doing YouTube? He goes, no, I was doing YouTube. I go, what are you doing? What did you do last night? He goes, we were downtown throwing water balloons off the building.

And I said, this does not seem like a job. This does not seem productive. And he goes, oh yeah, come over. And I went over to where he was and he showed me a check for $20,000 for that week. And I went, what the hell is this? What are you doing? Are you doing porn? I had no idea what he was doing. And he said, I'll show you. And I hadn't really looked. And he showed me, for the life of me, I can't remember specifically what it was, but I know he showed me a YouTube. video.

that had 100 million clicks. First of all, I've never seen the number. As successful as I've been, I've never seen anything get 100 million viewers or whatever. And I started reading comments and they went, this is the funniest thing. You're brilliant. This is the most I've ever laughed. And it was a comedy video. And I didn't recognize it as comedy. I don't even understand why this is funny.

Like, I come from a place where when we started the comedy story, I understand the difference between Carrot Top and Dennis Miller.

you know and and and even if you don't like me or john oliver because we're very different people i understand why you know it's different tastes like country music versus rock and roll or whatever you you like i didn't even recognize this as comedy and that was the scariest moment of my life that was an awakening because i said wait a minute 100 million people are engaging in this as comedy and they think it's funny

Like, I don't even understand why it's funny, let alone whether I can make a comment, I don't like it, or that's not funny, or that's not funny to me. It's subjective. But they're tuned to something. And that... was a rude awakening. He's very successful now. This studio we're in, he built. He has a network of a million podcasts that people listen to and watch. He ended up...

going behind the scenes and realizing that all these influencers needed content. He creates white label content and shares in the ad revenue. He does fine. The point is, but he taught me. So I said, wow i don't even speak the language anymore and what i realized we all do we all do curiosity runs through everybody's veins and going full circle to the beginning of this conversation when we're young

I'm going to talk about my generation. We all listen to the radio to find out what's the hottest music. What should we be buying? What should we be listening to? We look at magazines and they still do this online. What should I be wearing? What is the style? What is the fashion? What is that?

at a certain point probably around your mid 40s people get tired of looking and seeing what's new they they have their music they like that music spoke to them at the time where they're burgeoning and they're talking like they talk and then life just continues that river continues to flow the language becomes different the way we consume becomes different the way we do business becomes different you know people can stay in their bed in their underpants now and become a billionaire

and never leave that bed. And they can do that on a laptop. You could never have done that. Everything changes. And we sit around and- your kid will play you a song and you'll go, that's not music. You want to hear music? I'll play you my music. And that doesn't hit them. It doesn't hit them. You realize the language has changed. It's like going, if you wanted to go now and go live in Italy for a year, you don't speak the language. Your lifestyle is different. You learn that.

So I took it upon myself and it kind of hit a switch that is very unhealthy and healthy where my curiosity, I have FOMO as Oprah coined the phrase, but fear of missing out and I sit online. all night and all day and just try to say, I want to speak the language. I want to be able to engage. I want to be able to entertain somebody now. And that's what I do. And if you walk around, we're in my facility right now, you know, I have a...

I'm fascinated by it. I have a gaming team on Twitch that's playing live gaming. That's a great income stream. I have- Is it income stream for you or for them? Both. Most of the people you met here, I have technology here, the hologram technology. It's because I got tired of doing Zoom calls and doing things like this on Zoom. And I found ProtoHologram. I found them on Instagram. I DMed David. I went over to think this is how

I'm going to be myself so I can get places without going any place. And I ended up seeing it. That's the low hanging fruit. There's so many, it employs, it's a software company that employs AI. I ended up moving them into my building. That's the head office. I invested. I sit on the board. I found.

live band and the gaming team on twitch you know i'm i just have to be aware of how the world i i for my own personal it doesn't make me better it doesn't make me more successful i just need for comfort to know that i understand the language of our community of our world now you know let's start let's kind of wind it back to one thought which is your definition of success is contentment

okay so i'm chasing contentment but this these don't sound like contentment activities these sound like i don't have to make they sound like what like you're actually chasing stimulation Being switched on. So being switched on and being aware and being able to speak the language and understand makes me content. That's the piece. I just have to understand. It's like if I moved you to Italy right now.

you would try really hard to learn the language because what are you chasing are you going to be more success are you going to make more money you might make more money if you speak the language and you might and those are afterthoughts

but I want to speak the language of the world. I want to understand what... You are a learner. Curiosity. I think curiosity doesn't kill a cat. Curiosity... makes cats thrive. And I'm one cat that wants to thrive because that is every day I figure there's gotta be like, what are they doing now? You know? And I'm so curious and I don't. bemoan anybody of my age who is not curious i wish i wish that i could have that comfort where you know i could sit at home i could retire and i could be content

Some of them say they're content. I think a lot of people who retire die. I think if you are not stimulated mentally, you will screw up physically. What do you think curiosity rests on? Curiosity is a mindset. It's like in a way that you approach something. For you, what does it rest on underneath? It's a difficult question. Another way I can ask it is where does it come from? Meaning if I don't know, I feel scared. Or when I do know. I'm looking for the aha moment.

like i can't wait to get the ahas it tickles me and that's probably not a great the aha moment tickles you or the process of like going towards my wife gets mad at me all the time because it's not just about business or social media or whatever, I have always, even as a kid, just stared at people. I love to watch people. I love, I love it.

You don't have to know me. I like to watch you operate and see how things are done. And then I can't tell you how many times my wife, I just prefaced this by saying she gets mad at me, where I'll engage a stranger. in a conversation and I start asking too many questions and they end up in tears and I will walk away and my wife will go, well, you had to ask, you know, like, are you married? And my husband just died. Why did you ask? Why do you ask? Why do you care?

I go I don't know but i'm really interested i see something i want to look at it i want to not touch it but i'm using that as a an analogy i want to see something i want to touch i want to know about it i want to i just want to i just i don't know i can't just it feels wrong for me personally to just let i'm not trying to fill a void

Maybe I am, as I say it out loud, but I just want to, you know, if I hear a noise in another room, I want to walk in and see what that noise is. A lot of people are okay with hearing a noise in another room and going, oh, there's a noise, and continuing on. I don't know why. me why do i need to know what that was why do i need to know about somebody that i've never seen before i'm never going to see again why why do i need to stare why do i i don't know

Well, I will tell you, this is really cool that you brought this up because I was going to ask when we had a moment, like, what are you doing when you're listening? Because you listen in a very particular way. It's the eye contact. It's the way that I feel when you're listening. There's an intensity about you.

And there's a contour to it. The contour is like, you're not burrowed in like, what is he going to say next? Like, this doesn't make sense. Hurry up, kid. That type of thing. It's like, oh, wait. i wonder where he's going to go so there is a curiosity that sits right underneath do people say that to you about the way that you listen no they say i don't listen they say i like add because i like you

I interrupt. But I interrupt, I interrupt because I am, see this is, maybe I'm wrong, but I can't be wrong about, I could be wrong about myself. you know i do a podcast and they say you know we want to hear them not you but when you start saying something that i'm really interested in i'm like a five-year-old kid who goes you you go well i you know i grew up in germany

You grew up in Germany. What was that like? Let you finish the sentence. But I'm so excited. I'm really enthralled with what you're saying or really interested in what you're saying. So interested. The term interruption is not what I'm doing. The term is I'm engaging. That's my engagement. My engagement just has to be, it just happens to be seen by everybody else as an interruption. What's happening for you right now as you're speaking?

Because there's a different neurochemistry in the way that you were just speaking about the way that you engage with other people. Do you know what that feels like inside of you? No. You don't articulate that well. Not myself. Everybody else would notice it. When you switch on.

everybody was like oh they probably say something like oh how he's on it or whatever they might say but that when you get excited i think other people are demonstrably influenced by it you know i pitch things i'm always selling and i'm always i like that i like that and i i'm on social media i'm on every platform i like that and i say to people the key and i'm not using my own terminology for success but if you want to buy this show if you want to do this business

if you want to go viral if you want to have a good i said that the one word that social media brought is engagement engagement is my whole essence And it's not to have a viral moment. It's just that I have a tendency to just, maybe because I feel so alone. I just want to be part of whatever it is you're part of. I just want to engage. I just want to engage. And so much of what people talk about and so much of what...

They put on our media. It's just so passive. It's just noise. There's so much noise. And if you could find a moment, an idea, something that engages. There's something, and that's what in that moment of my fear, without any aspirations of being a comedian, being successful, being famous, being anything, I engaged a room of strangers.

and i'm chasing that that's all i chase is engagement and if you look at all the biggest whatever you want to call economic successes in people's lives the microsoft's the steve jobs They were these outliers that were so focused on doing a specific thing that ultimately engaged this huge mass. All of a sudden everybody was interested in how it's done this way. They engaged in that tool that these people created. They were so engaged and they hit a seed of what engages all of us.

and they brought that together and i think what i chase is engagement that's all i chase i feel it when you're engaged i you're this is part of your signature way of going through but don't you feel that and everybody it's not me you when somebody is disengaged or when something is if i pick up my phone and i'm doing that right 100 i think engagement is the seed of life i think that is the seed of success is the seed of contentment whether you're

engaged with a life partner, with your child, with whatever you're doing, with a hobby, that is the value. And when you engage, when you can hook on and hold on to something that makes you content, that makes you happy. We think that we're going to be engaged if we can grab money, if we can grab notoriety. What you find is those are empty engagements that are, they fade.

You know, it doesn't matter how much money you have when you die, you're going to be in the same place. It doesn't matter how many people know you, eventually nobody's going to know you. you know as somebody who has gone through you know i blew up on hbo in 1981 the next day i was able to play you know two shows a night at 10 000 seats in 2005 i couldn't sell 75 tickets at a comedy club so i i know the difference of how i'm engaging an audience how much of that audience is engaged

And then deal or no deal blew up. And then I was off of deal or no deal. They did 500. And then, so I've seen those ebbs and flows, which are really not that show business, but show business is a really good emblem for life. There are times in your life where you're so engaged, where your relationships are really engaged. I've been married for 46 years.

It's hot and heavy at the beginning. There's times where there's strife in life and finance and whatever that's going on in other people's lives where you're not as engaged. And you strive to become more engaged. Engagement is life. Engagement is success. Engagement is the fuel that we all seek.

Howie, more so than the words you've chose, it's how you've chosen them and the way that you've embodied the words that you're choosing. What a gift. I am a gift. I am a gift. I feel like you're wrapping me up right now. you are aren't you i love what you just did that i took the gift and the wrapping and then we're closing the show and and we're giving it to uh is that your camera is that your close-up right there yeah yeah and we're and he's giving this gift to you

Oh God. All right. Look, I do want to ask you like one or two word questions here as responses. One or two word? Responses. The responses are one or two words. Yeah. Right. Okay. It all comes down to. Yes. If you could name them boat, what would the name of the boat be? Not Titanic. Mastery is? Are you baiting me? Mm-mm. You baited me perfectly. We're going to end with that. Howie, thank you, brother, so much. This was awesome. Thank you.

Next time on Finding Mastery, we recorded live at the California Surf Club in Redondo Beach with NHL Hall of Famer and LA Kings president, Luke Robitaille. From being a ninth round draft pick almost overlooked by the league to becoming one of hockey's all-time greats, Luke shares how hope, grit and a relentless commitment to getting a little better every day shaped both his career on the ice and his leadership.

off of it. Join us on Wednesday, October 8th at 9am Pacific only on Finding Mastery. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening.

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