Insufficient Glandular Tissue (IGT)

[00:18] Greer: 
Hi, this is Greer, your host for Femammal, the podcast that holds space for women to explore what it means to live well in our bodies and celebrates moving through this world as female mammals. Estefanía Lens is a wife and mother of three children, ages four and under. She is originally from Uruguay, where she taught psychology to undergraduates and undertook research. She moved to the United States with her American husband in 2016. In this episode, Estefanía shares about her experience of Insufficient Glandular Tissue, a disorder that prevents sufficient milk production for successfully breastfeeding. She reflects on the ways in which IGT undermined her confidence as a new mother and how she was able to reframe her challenges and grow to become a better advocate for herself and her children, to become gentler with herself and to become more empathetic of other women.

[01:29] Greer: 
Welcome, Estephania. I so appreciate you coming on the podcast today to share about your experience with Insufficient Glandular Tissue. It's better known as IGT, and this is not a condition that I had heard of before, so I would love if you could start by talking a little bit about what that condition is.

[01:51] Estefanía : 
Yes. So it's basically that your breasts have less glandular tissue than they should and that's what produces milk. So in my case, most of it is just fat, which is the other thing that you have in your breast. And I don't have enough glandular tissue to produce a sufficient amount of milk. It's not very well known, really, and they diagnose it basically by just discarding other pathologies. They do lab tests and they try to increase your milk supply with triple feeding, which is putting the baby to the breast and then feeding them a bottle of formula or donor's milk, whatever, and then pumping. So it's a lot of work because you have to do this every 3 hours. And if that doesn't increase your supply, they kind of figure out you probably have Insufficient Glandular Tissue. There are some physical signs that you can check to see if it's more likely that you will have this or not. Like when your breasts are too wide apart, or if there's a clear asymmetry between them. But for instance, in my case, even though there is a slight asymmetry, it wasn't anything that you wouldn't consider normal, right. Like any other asymmetry in the body. So we didn't know coming into this that I had that.

[03:19] Greer: 
So it's not anything that you could just do like an ultrasound and see that you've got this situation? It's more of a process of ruling out other conditions.

[03:30] Estefanía : 
Yes. And honestly, you should be able to figure it out with an ultrasound because I imagine that should show up, but that's not how they do it. So I don't know if it's because you can't or because they just do the other process. Because let's try everything first, because even if you have all the signs for having Insufficient Glandular Tissue, you could still be able to produce milk and not have it. So even if you have your breasts apart, even if they're asymmetrical, maybe you don't have it. So they don't really know exactly. These are like indications of the possible presence of the condition, but it's not for sure. But yeah, it would be ideal if you could just go for an ultrasound and you didn't have to go through all this guessing game in the middle of postpartum.

[04:21] Greer: 
Sure. So could you talk more about your path to getting diagnosed? It sounds like it starts with having an issue trying to breastfeed your baby.

[04:30] Estefanía : 
Yeah, well, I had my son after five days of prodromal labor. That means that I had like a fake labor for five days. And the last two nights I had contractions every 20 minutes, but they weren't really doing anything. So I couldn't sleep, I could hardly eat, I could hardly drink. So I was already starting labor, really tired. During labor, I had a third degree tear, which meant that I was giving birth at a birth center that's connected to a hospital. But they had to transfer me to the hospital. So that delayed that moment where they put the baby to latch, like right after you have him. And then I had to get some IV fluids because of my dehydration, because of this long prodromal labor period. So all these things that they thought might affect my milk supply, but just for the first few days. So they put the baby to the breast. After I was admitted in the hospital and stitched up and it was really painful. So I asked if that was normal. One of the doctors came and checked and he said that my son had a tongue tie. So what it was making breastfeeding really hard and that he had a boxy palate and that it was going to be very hard to breastfeed. But then another one came in and said, no, the baby's perfectly fine, you should be able to breastfeed without any trouble. And I wondered like, maybe I'm just imagining that this is not going well. Before that also, I had gone to this first classes with a midwife and I had asked specifically about this because a friend of mine couldn't breastfeed. And she assured me it was extremely rare not being able to breastfeed, that probably my friend just lacked support and education, very condescending, and that I shouldn't even worry about that. So I went into this thinking, okay, it's just every woman can breastfeed. I'm sure it's just getting the hang of it and that's it. But I went back home from the hospital and my son was really upset and would scream bloody murder and we couldn't calm him down. And I put him to the breast all the time, but he was still frustrated. So when we had a midwife come visit us, she checked and she realized that his body weight was a little bit less than ideal for that stage. Even though they all drop in weight, this was a little more. And so she suggested that we go to the pediatrician or the lactation consultant right away. We did that the next day. They didn't have an appointment for the lactation specialist, so we went to the pediatrician and he started having red diapers, which is one of the signs of dehydration, and his pee was red, basically. The pediatrician there said now he was below weight. He had dropped more weight than 10%, which is a lot. But the pediatrician said that I had to go on trying because my milk would come in eventually. And meanwhile, this kid was clearly in distress. And then he started becoming more lethargic. And we were like, you know what, we're going to give him a little bit of formula. But we didn't even know how or how much. So we called the emergency room and asked what to give him. The lady, the pediatrician, or I don't know, the doctor who was there said, like, why doesn't she want to breastfeed? And then my husband was like, do you think we would be calling at midnight because my wife doesn't want to breastfeed? So we give him a little bit of that. And I went to the lactation consultant the next morning, and when they checked, they do a weight feeding, which means that they weigh the baby for you, put him to the breast, then you make him latch and drink, and then you weigh him again. And he was actually a little lighter after the so called feeding than before. So we realized that was not working at all. Then they tried to increase my milk supply with the triple feeding that I was talking about and with drinking this mother's milk tea and taking the supplements and doing all these things. But after two weeks, nothing had really changed. When I pumped, I only got, like, ounce every time I pumped, which was very discouraging. They ran a bunch of lab tests just to make sure it wasn't one of these other rare pathologies. Turns out it wasn't. So they were like, well, you probably have IGT. And they basically left me to my own devices on how to feed my baby with formula, how much, anything. Like what kind of bottles to buy. I was left on my own, so I had to go to the internet to find the answers. But that was how I got to my diagnosis. It was a long road. It wasn't clear. Yeah. And it wasn't like, oh, then you have this. Let's see how we can help you with this condition. You have to still have a good feeding journey.

[09:45] Greer: 
There are just so many elements in what you experienced that are so distressing. I'm only imagining how you're entering this experience with such low energy reserves, low emotional reserves. After the labor process that you went through, it sounded like really difficult. And then you're experiencing this distress where you can see that your child is struggling and in a lot of distress himself. I can't even imagine the feeling that a new mom would have to see bloody urine in a diaper and then to get that kind of lack of response from the health care system. So do you want to speak a little bit to what your emotional state was going through all of this?

[10:35] Estefanía : 
Yes. Also it wasn't like bloody urine, which it looks like that, but thankfully in one of the birth classes they had already told us that it was like crystals or something in the urine that do indicate dehydration but it's not blood. Which is a little bit more reassuring than if hadn't I known that I would have been in a lot of worse emotional state. But yeah, this is the thing. I came into motherhood thinking that everything could be natural, right? I chose no epidural, no pain medications, nothing for my birth. I wanted to do it as natural as possible. I went through the five days of labor without even going to the hospital or the birth center or anything because I believed my body could take it. And so I was very much in this mentality and that had been reinforced so much before birth by my midwives. Mainly not at the birth center, but another place where I took this birth classes. And having asked beforehand is this an option? And having been told no, everyone can breastfeed, it already made it so hard for me to accept that that was a possibility. And after being exhausted with birth and being stitched up pretty bad because he was a very big tear and having my first born and I have no idea what I'm doing. And I've never been around babies so I really have no idea what I'm doing. And seeing him crying so distressed and feeling like nobody is taking me seriously or nobody cares or this feeling like you're on your own was very hard. Also with the whole postpartum hormone chaos, I was already feeling kind of blue and very anxious and I was worried my mental health was going to go. I was really scared of postpartum depression because I saw that that was the road I was taking. Because with the triple feeding you cannot sleep basically because you have to feed your baby every 3 hours and between the trying to breastfeed your baby, the formula feeding and the pumping and then putting the baby to sleep and you count the 3 hours from when you start that process. So basically you get an hour in between to sleep. So you are tired and very discouraged because something you really wanted was not happening and nobody was really taking me seriously. And then just, you know, what was the hardest for me was this lactation consultant was not great. I went the first day and I was obviously crying because I'm five days postpartum, my baby is distressed, and I can't proceed, or at least I feel like I'm failing somehow. And she asked me, Why are you crying in such a harsh way that even my husband was taking aback? Well, because all of this I don't know, what part of this do I have to explain to you? And then when she realized she couldn't increase my supply, she basically left me on my own to figure out everything. And so it was like, okay, you're a failure. You're a failed case. I cannot help you. Good luck. So it was very distressing. And before I had my baby, I was a counselor in Uruguay. I studied psychology, and I actually taught undergrad classes, undergrad courses, and one of them was psychopathology. So you go in depth, know the different pathologies of the mind. And so I knew that postpartum depression, sometimes the woman does not recognize the signs. And I trained my husband to be on the lookout for certain signs and symptoms. And when all this was happening, and with the triple feeding and already feeling like a failure and feeling like I wasn't going to be able to bond with my child and that there was something flawed about me, my husband started noticing signs that seemed like I was going that way. I didn't reach a postpartum depression, but I feel like had my husband not intervened and said, this is enough, we should not go on triple feeding, this is insane. It's not good for you. Formula is good enough, I wonder what would have happened.

[15:10] Greer: 
Yeah, absolutely. I'm so glad you had that training and were able to enlist your husband as that support. We just don't invest enough in mothers postpartum or in babies postpartum, for that matter. And so you're concerned about your own mental health and you're not getting the rest you need, and then at the same time, your baby is losing weight. Did you have any sense of actual fear for your baby's life that was kind of compounding your own anxiety?

[15:44] Estefanía : 
Yes. By the time we went to the pediatrician and he had that red diaper, I really started worrying that this was going to end up really poorly. I thought that maybe there was some lasting damage. I thought, we're going to catch it because I was going to the doctor, so I was hoping he was going to give me formula and tell me how much to give him, but that was not what he answered. But then I was wondering, what are the lasting effects of this? Will this affect his neurological development in any way? Will this affect his immune system? All the questions beyond death, like, okay, this baby, we're going to feed him formula and he's going to survive, but the damage we've already done, what are the consequences of that? And I know it's irrational because he's fine, but sometimes anything happens, and I'm like, oh, I wonder if it's because I starved him for five days. And I know it's not my fault, I rationally understand that, but it feels like I starved him because I was the one supposed to give him milk. And I think now is the only time I can actually speak of this without crying. And he's already four. So for the longest time, I couldn't even talk about this whole experience without bursting into tears because of how traumatic it was really for me and for what could have been that, thankfully, it wasn't.

[17:10] Greer: 
I'm so sorry about everything you went through. It sounds so hard. And thinking back on it, how do you wish providers would have approached your challenges and the sort of help that you wish you could have gotten from them?

[17:26] Estefanía : 
Yes. It starts like before I even gave birth, it's when I was asking that very specific question, could I possibly not breastfeed? I wish someone would have said, yes, it is an option, because, like, every organ in your body, it may fail. I've never heard of anyone saying, like, I cannot see well, and people saying, just try harder, right? They just give you glasses, that's it. But when it comes to motherhood and breastfeeding, there's all this pressure on what it should be rather than what it is that it makes it really hard. And when I asked the first time, people had been like, yes, there's a possibility either the baby could have some problems or you could, or it could be something in the bond or whatever, but they could have laid out all the options, all the possibilities. I would have been a little bit more on the lookout, and I feel like I would have been able to intervene earlier, even if no one around me would have. But before I even gave birth, I was already under the impression that it was impossible not being able to breastfeed. And then when I was with my baby in the hospital, I wish the doctors would have a more unified vision of my child's palate and tongue tie, because he did have a tongue tie. We finally figured out it wasn't too big of a deal. And since I wasn't producing milk, it wasn't really worth it. I just pumped a few ounces that I had a day and I fed them in a bottle because it was easier for him to drink, because putting him to the breast was very painful and he still didn't get anything. So if somebody had actually taken the time to really see what was going on with my son, and if someone had actually told me, why don't you pump and see how much you can get? So you have an idea if you're feeding your child something or nothing. And then the lactation consultant, if she had been one more empathetic because I come here crying, the last thing I need is someone telling me to toughen up, basically, and also understanding that your role is not just breastfeeding. Your role is also helping me with how do I combine the very little that I can pump, which was a tiny amount, but I still thought it was worth it, so I did it with the bottle, with formula feeding. I know donor milk is an option, but it was never discussed, actually was said in passing, like, oh, you could consider donor's milk, but where? How? Nothing. And I was already too overwhelmed to start researching when my child was already struggling. And honestly, emotionally, I do not know if I would have been ready to let other moms milk be my child's sustenance because I was in a very dark emotional state. But yeah, I wish they had presented me with options. I wish they had told me how to formula feed, how much to give at each age. Like, how much does a five day old need? How much does a one month old need? What signs should I look out for to see if he's full or he needs more, or how much speed up is normal for formula feeding. And the stools are a little different than breastfeed babies. So what should I look for? Like, somebody to educate me. Because he was my first baby and I was already going through something I didn't expect. I was already emotionally very distressed and no one was really helping us. We changed pediatricians, obviously, but the pediatrician dismissing completely my child's suffering. What else did it have to happen for him to pay attention? I don't know. I think, like everyone that played a part in this, I don't think anyone gave me the support and the information I needed because it's not breastfeed or well, then you're on your own. It should be breastfeed. And if not, these are the options and this is how you do it. And I don't know why people are I don't know if they're afraid that if they give you the information, you will choose the path of formula, which honestly, I think it's a personal decision, and each mother should choose whatever they want. But also for those of us who don't get the choice, we shouldn't be left on our own. We're already dealing with the trauma of the whole seeing your child in distress because of hunger and feeling responsible because you're the one supposed to provide the milk for him. We don't need, on top of that, the guilt that it comes attached to formula. We really don't. And people don't know what's the reason behind you giving formula to your baby. It could be anything. It could be that for your mental health. It could be because your baby has some sort of illness that requires some sort of intolerances that require that he has a very specific formula. It could be, in my case, that I didn't have enough milk or whatever, but I felt the need to justify why I was using formula every time a stranger was looking at me like with a frown. So yeah, it's not only the healthcare system, but it's also society in general that have decided that you're kind of a second class mom if you are formula feeding.

[22:45] Greer: 
That's so well said and I'm so sorry that you were on the butt end of that terrible negative messaging around it. And I'm definitely hearing that when you were first going through this it really impacted your sense of self and your identity as a mother. Could you say a little bit more about how your identity was impacted at the time and then also how you've worked through that? Because you have three wonderful children now and I can hear that you're at a better place with this and a lot more confident in yourself.

[23:19] Estefanía : 
Yes. At the beginning when I couldn't formula feed, I remember one of those night triple feedings and thinking like, I'm not going to be able to bond with my child because how they talk about breastfeeding being the optimal way to bond with your child. And so I said, well then I guess he's not going to love me. And I was in such a dark space that I said and I don't blame him because I'm failing him in my role as a mother. I already failed at motherhood from day one. That feeling of failing at motherhood when it's the thing you want the most and when you love your child more than your own life and knowing that the thing that is the most important to you, you're already failing, affects you in such a deep way. I cried like 24/7. I cried when I tried to put him to the breast, I cried when I was pumping, I cried when I was formula feeding. And then I reached out to this friend of mine in Uruguay who couldn't breastfeed. And she talked to me because back before she hadn't gone in depth into what she had gone through and so she talked about how she felt and what had happened to her. And in Uruguay they push a little bit less the whole breastfeeding thing. I mean they encourage you, they provide you with lactation consultants, they give you the support you need from the health care perspective, but they would never let your child get to the point that my child did. So I also wondered what am I doing in this country? Maybe I would have been better off in mine and stuff like that. So it wasn't just my identity, it was all my life decisions at that point that I was regretting. I started wondering if it's something that I had done at some point in my life that had affected me in some way. And talking to this friend really helped because she could relate to everything I was thinking and feeling and she could show me another perspective from someone who actually went through it because that for me was very important because other mothers, they were like, no, it felt the same, don't worry. But they were able to breastfeed. It didn't feel like they were really understanding how I felt. So that helped me. But, yeah, it really affected my sense of worth and my capabilities as a mother. Honestly, at that point, I was like, I'm not sure I can have another child because I cannot go through this again. I cannot go through the heartache again. Obviously, I got over it because I have two more, but it was very hard. And not only that, but when I got pregnant again, they said, well, last time you weren't able to breastfeed, but you had all these other things happening. You had very long labor, you had to be transferred. Your baby had a bit of a tongue tie, so his latch wasn't good. And it happens to some women who have IGT that with the second pregnancy, they produce more milk. Maybe you'll still have to supplement, but maybe you'll produce more. So I tried again with my second one for the first, I don't know, two, three days, we just tried to breastfeed. She had a beautiful latch. Everything seemed to work so well. But I was still not producing enough milk when they did the weight feeding, unfortunately, with the same consultant I had seen the previous time, which was once again awful, she said, like, yes, she's hardly receiving any milk. So I knew that it hadn't improved the third time around. At least I already knew when I came with formula to the hospital, to the birth center. So I was prepared. But, yeah, it even made me reconsider whether to have more children or not because the pain I was feeling was so intense. That was also mixed in with the whole baby blues that I was experiencing because it wasn't really depression, but it was a depressed mood. I couldn't see clearly. I've never been clinically depressed, but that's the closest I've ever been. And it was very scary, it was very dark. And had it not been for my husband who intervened and said, let's stop it with this nonsense, this is good enough, I would have gone on pushing and pushing and pushing, and that would have actually been really bad for my mental health.

[27:57] Greer: 
Yeah, thanks for sharing all that detail because it really makes the experience vivid. And some of those cycles that you described about, oh, is there something in my life that I caused this? Those are such normal, unhealthy reactions that we have about anything really dramatically wrong in our life. So I really feel it. I'm wondering if there were positive messages that you started saying to yourself at some point or what sort of beliefs about yourself as a mother were you able to use to replace those negative thoughts?

[28:36] Estefanía : 
Yeah, actually, one of the things that really helped was seeing my son gaining weight and being happy and sleeping well and playing and doing all these normal things that helped me, I said, okay, well, I didn't ruin his life from the get go. So seeing him healthy made me feel better about my role as a mother. Also, as time passes, my hormones started becoming a little bit more stable. So I was able to see it more calmly, I think. And while this friend really helped giving me certain messages and I'm Catholic and I started praying desperately for milk, that was like my prayer. Please let me breastfeed. I will do whatever I can to donate whatever excess milk I have. I will go the extra mile for helping other moms to be able to have some donors milk or anything, just if I can only have milk, right? And obviously that's not how prayer works. God is not a genie. But in that prayer, in that moment of asking God for this, like, usually prayer works, I ended up changing my position. I think that spiritual part of my life also helped me because through prayer, asking something that I obviously didn't get, but it made me change. There was some grace in that. I changed the perspective on the matter. It was like, well, it's not such a big thing. I'm still blessed with this amazing child. I'm still healthy and here because also things could have gone really differently for both of us and that starting to be a little bit more grateful. I think that's the key. I changed my perspective from a place of want and begging for this outcome to a place of gratefulness for what I did have and thinking like, well, I have formula on the shelves. Which that's another thing, because one of my fears was if I cannot feed him and anything happens, because in that moment you think, like, if a war breaks out or whatever, I'm not going to be able to feed my baby and he's going to die. So when I started reassuring myself, well, there's formula on the shelves, which actually was a problem with my third one, but that's a different story. You are healthy, the baby is healthy. You have so much to be grateful for. It helped me move from that position of want and despair to a more grateful position. And then I found two accounts on Instagram that really helped me. One is the Low Supply Mom and the other one is the Formula Mom. And they both advocate for formula feeding, not instead of breastfeeding, but for those who choose or have to formula feed. And seeing other women who had gone through the same thing I had and who were happy and healthy and thriving with happy, healthy kids also helped me change the messages I was telling myself. 

[31:52] Greer: 
Oh, I love all that for you. Do you want to speak to the formula shortage that happened in the last year or so and how that impacted you? Because it sounds like maybe your third baby was impacted by that.

[32:03] Estefanía : 
Yeah. So when I finally was coming to terms with, I cannot breast feed, the formula shortage happened. So great timing, but yeah, it was incredibly scary. We had a bunch of friends and family always on the search for formula. We were stacking formula as much as we could whenever we encountered anything. And that feeling of not knowing if your child will be able to be fed is the most terrifying feeling ever because, you know, you cannot feed her. There's no way you can possibly do that. And feeling like you're going to have to hunt down the last ounce of formula and saying that your can is running short and you only have one more can in storage. And what happens when that one runs out? Will anyone be able to find any formula for your baby? It's not ideal to change formula brands and types, but the CDC was saying just do it because it's the only thing you can do at this point. So I already foresaw that if we couldn't find more of the one that she had, we might have to change and experience some upset in her. And, yeah, it was a very scary time. And also reading the news about babies who had special formulas, it wasn't like the regular formulas that healthier kids require, but still that who ended up in the hospital because they had been, well, starving, basically, because they couldn't find the right kind of formula. It was terrifying. It was truly terrifying because it was one of my fears when I first discovered I couldn't breastfeed what, if anything happens, and my baby starves. So back then it was an irrational thought and then all of a sudden it wasn't. So that was very scary. And that it happens here in the United States was mind boggling. Really?

[34:03] Greer: 
Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it sounds like when you had your third baby, you went in with the sort of self confidence and self knowledge that breastfeeding was just a lost cause for you and you should just go straight to that formula solution. And you had done such good work to mentally and emotionally be good with that choice because it was the right choice for your family. But then to have that situation turn on its head, to then suddenly have the formula be scarce, how did you navigate that in your own heart?

[34:41] Estefanía : 
Well, I think another blessing was that it happened on the third time around. Had it been on the first, I think I would have completely collapsed. But I tried to be proactive. One thing that helps me when I start feeling helpless is to start creating plans. So I asked a bunch of people that we knew to please look out for this formula whenever they could encounter it. I kept track of how much we had. So to remove myself from starting to feel despair again, I started creating systems, basically, or creating plans to not fall into that. Because if I started thinking too much about that, I knew I was going to be tempted to go back to feeling in despair, feeling helpless, feeling worthless. And so I needed to keep myself busy with solutions so not to start falling into that kind of thought pattern that keeps you trapped in the I am not good enough. See how I cannot feed my baby and you cannot count on anyone because you see how there's no formula on the shelf so you can't really count on society for you. So yeah, I had to keep myself busy to avoid that, keeping busy with solutions.

[36:06] Greer: 
I love that line. That is amazing. I will think of that. Amazing. So you have just been on a huge journey and I really appreciate you sharing that journey with us. I'm wondering, stepping back, what would be some of the ways that you see that you have grown through this diagnosis and through this journey with your three babies?

[36:33] Estefanía : 
Yeah, I think it prevented me into falling into mommy pride that I feel like happens more often than one would like, where we think because we have been successful in a bunch of stuff like giving birth without an epidural and not needing a C-section and all these things that are somehow praised in our society, which is ridiculous because it shouldn't be like that, but it is right. There's this whole societal thing that pushes for natural birth and breastfeeding. So I feel like having gone through all of this prevented me from falling into mommy pride and feeling like I knew what I was doing and it made me rely on others and rely on God and my husband and all the people around me. So I think in that way it helped me grow and prevented me from being tempted to think that I knew more than I do. So on that hand, it helped me in that way. But also I feel like it helped me empathize a lot more with people who struggle with any kind of illness but especially the ones related to motherhood because I don't think society is always too good to moms who are struggling in any way. And so it has made me feel more empathy and been able to help others, even if it's through instagram. Being active in this Formula Mom Forums and Low Supply Mom accounts that the other moms start saying, like, I have all the symptoms and I feel really discouraged. And more than once I have told them, just send me a personal message. We can talk about it. And a couple have done so. And we have talked. And I have been able to help them, at least with how they feel. And so they can feel seen and they can know that others have gone through that before and that it hasn't been the end of the world and that it will not affect their relationship with their children and that their children will not starve. So I feel like it has also helped me help others in a way that I wouldn't have been able if I hadn't experienced what I experienced. So I am very thankful for that. And it has also helped me be a better advocate for myself in healthcare settings and go with my gut a lot more. At one point, my son, when he was three months old, had developed croup, which means that his airways are a little bit tight, so he has this labored breathing that sounds kind of weird. And I had to go to the pediatrician, but I already knew that there was a chance they weren't going to pay attention to me. So I filmed him doing this when he was having one of the episodes. So when I went and they tried to dismiss me, like, oh, mom, children, babies do weird noises when they breathe, I was able to show the video and be taken seriously. So I think it also made me a better advocate for myself and my children. But ultimately, I think the thing that I find the most important is that it has softened my heart in a bit to other people who are struggling with this kind of things, and hopefully it's making me an instrument to help others.

[40:05] Greer: 
Oh, thank you for supporting other women that way. And I love that idea of videoing your son when he was dealing with croup. I ask people for tips on advocating for ourselves more effectively in the medical setting all the time. And no one's ever suggested, oh, take a video of what's going on. I think that's amazing.

[40:25] Estefanía : 
Yeah, I already foresaw I wasn't going to be taken seriously, so the only way I could think of that is presenting evidence. Right?

[40:33] Greer: 
Right. Yeah, sure. What are some things that you celebrate about where you're at now in your health journey?

[40:42] Estefanía : 
Well, I am able to talk about it without crying. And I know it sounds silly, but it was so hard for me for the longest time. And also, when you start crying, people get really awkward around you. They don't want to make you feel sad, so they think that you don't want to talk about it, and they try to change the subject and you have things to say. So being able to say all this without crying, I find it's like a little win. And I celebrate also being able to not beat myself up over things that I have no control of, but things that happen to me. I also suffer from migraines, I have since I was 23 years old, and they really affect me. I end up vomiting and being very sensitive to light and to noise. And it's like another way of celebrating is not beating myself up for this kind of thing. So when something is happening to me, I don't feel responsible for it. Now I don't beat myself up for my migraines. They happen. I'm more compassionate with myself, I think. So that's another win.

[41:56] Greer: 
That's so much to celebrate.nI'm so happy for you. Last question, and I always ask women this question. What kind of advice do you have on learning to listen well to our bodies?

[42:11] Estefanía : 
I think go with your gut would be one of it, because worst case scenario, if you're wrong, you have it checked, it's nothing. But I feel like a lot of times we know something is wrong, and because the healthcare system or people around us dismiss it, we start doubting ourselves and doubting our own bodies and the signals that they're giving us. So I would say, go with your gut and listen to your body the best you can, even if it's just that you're anxious. Well, that's also your body telling you something, right? If it's nothing and it's nothing physical, it's just anxiety. Well, it's not just anxiety that also has a place and should be helped with. So I would say whenever you feel any discomfort, whenever you feel something is not right, just push until someone takes you seriously, because they may not, but that shouldn't make you feel like your body is the one who's mistaken.

[43:15] Greer: 
Absolutely. Estefanía, your story has been so challenging but also so beautiful, and I'm just very grateful that you've shared it with such detail with us today and with such just candor, because I think there's so many people, whether they're going through a challenge with breastfeeding or just a different challenge with their health, who will really relate to it and benefit from it. So thank you so much.

[43:47] Estefanía : 
Oh, please, it's my pleasure. If this can help anyone, I'm all for it. I don't think I would have been in the place where I am now if it had been for other women who made me feel better about myself and made me feel like I was valued. So if this helps anyone, then it's my pleasure.

[44:09] Greer: 
Let's all keep lifting each other up.

[44:11] Estefanía : 
Yes.

[44:18] Greer: 
If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at femammalpodcast@gmail.com. That's femammalpodcast@gmail.com. You can also follow this podcast on Facebook. Just search for Femammal Podcast and you will find a community of people who are interested in living well in our bodies. And, of course, I'd love for you to rate this podcast and leave a review wherever you download your podcasts. Until next time, be well.