All About Bras

[00:17] Greer: 
Hi, this is Greer, your host for Femammal, the podcast that holds space for women to explore what it means to live well in our bodies and celebrates moving through this world as female mammals. Today's guest is Kirsten Schofield. She is the founding Creative Director at Underpinnings Lingerie, a Louisville, Kentucky based lingerie boutique which has been in business for four years. Underpinnings Lingerie carries 210 bra sizes, from 28 A to 54 N. It's the second largest size collection in the United States. In this episode, Kirsten demystifies bra sizing and makes the health case for getting the right support. She talks us through a fitting and she busts myths about our busts, and she does it all with a terrific sense of humor. So welcome, Kirsten. I'm so delighted that you're joining us today to talk about how to get the right size and support for your breasts through bras and supportive undergarments. And I am personally excited because this has been an area in my life that was sorely lacking. I can tell you. I did not get fit for a bra for the first time until I was like, I think 31 or 32. I was just wearing stuff that I had grabbed off the department store rack and just tried on in the fitting room for the whole 20 years prior to that. And it was definitely not the right size at all.

[02:01] Kirsten: 
Your story is really common, and thank you for having us today, Greer. I'm really excited to be here.

[02:07] Greer: 
So maybe you could just start by explaining how having the right bra size and support can support your overall health and wellness.

[02:16] Kirsten: 
So this question is one that we get a lot, and I think there's this really common perception that wearing a bra, sex appeal or being sexy, that it's for somebody else. And really, I think it's the garment that is most about you and it's about yourself. Obviously, your intimate garments are the things that you wear most closely to your skin. But I also think that having the right size and the right support can be not only empowering, not only affirming, but it can literally make the difference for you medically, which I think a lot of people don't realize. So, for example, a lot of people who think that maybe the best option for them is going to be a breast reduction, their plastic surgeon will send them to us first to see, hey, would actually it be helpful to get a bra that really fits you and can support you? So, for example, I'm a 30 or 32 band size and I'm about a G cup, which sounds really big, and we'll get to that later. But that means I'm carrying about three and a half pounds on my shoulders all the time, right? And that's like, not as much as the average handbag weighs, but it's not nothing. So if I'm thinking, okay, my only option is a breast reduction. And because my back is killing me. I hate this. My plastic surgeon, before I do that, before they cut on you, before they put you under general anesthesia, is going to come and check and see do we have other options? Right. And the inverse is true, too. People who maybe are thinking about getting augmentation, would you actually be happier with something that helped you feel a little fuller? Right. It can help a lot with posture. People with scoliosis come in a lot to just relieve the strain on their back. It also helps your clothes fit better overall, just because you've kind of corralled your body a little bit. And I know that's like a pretty cross way to put it, but it can really help a lot. At our store, we focus a lot on body neutrality and body affirmation. Right. So whatever size your body is, we think that's great. We think you look great. But for some people, looking bustier, looking thinner, looking younger is a priority, and having a bra that fits can help you with those goals. So if nothing else, what I see when I get somebody, when any of our fitters get somebody in a bra that truly fits them, they stand up straighter. That's the whole thing. You just stand up straighter immediately because you've got something helping carrying the load helping to carry the load on your back, which yeah. So medically, can it prevent cancer? No, but it can absolutely keep you from getting a surgery that ultimately you don't have to get. And I will tell you that occasionally we do see someone that the best I can do, the best we can offer them with a great bra that fits is to keep them comfortable until such a time that they can get the surgical interventions they need. Right. But it's pretty rare. A lot of people who will come in and get a size that fits, if they have a larger bust will end up not needing the surgery at the end, which is pretty cool. And you don't want to be under general anesthesia unless you're out of options. Right? 

[05:17] Greer: 
Yeah. That's so eye opening. So maybe if someone's experiencing some back pain or neck pain, would it be worth for them looking into, oh, is my bra the right size to begin with?

[05:29] Kirsten: 
100%. Physical therapists send people to us a lot for the same reason. Right. Like, if they're doing physical therapy, if you've been lifting weights and you're getting stronger but your back is still hurting, it's worth looking into. And I really, truly, and I think I speak for everybody, Underpinnings really believe that getting a bra that fits is just a necessity for everybody. Right. That's really important for everybody. But yeah, in terms of can it alleviate back and neck pain? It absolutely can. And especially if you're somebody who has a job where you're sitting and suching at a desk all day, which I often do, I'm guilty of it, it can help a lot with since you're already kind of hunched over and why add one more thing.

[06:10] Greer: 
Yeah, that's so helpful. And I think you've really addressed a lot of it, but I think there is a zeitgeist right now, especially maybe among millennials and Gen Zers, of like, why do I even need to wear a bra? I feel like a lot of my friends just choose not to wear bras at this point because I think they feel like it's very much an imposed sort of beauty standard or a way to keep women constrained in some way. Could you kind of speak into that zeitgeist?

[06:43] Kirsten: 
Absolutely. So I am 35 years old. I am, like, dead center of the millennial generation. So I grew up very much under the hegemony of the Victoria's Secret beauty ideal of, like, what is sexy, like, what a bra is supposed to do. And in that sort of paradigm, what the bra is supposed to do is make you more appealing to the male gaze. Right. And that's the goal of the garment. And that was definitely the culture that I grew up, and that's the suit I was swimming in my whole life. So I understand why people feel that they're, like, this does not speak to me. I also see a lot of people who, for whatever reason, whether that's their size, their gender, their age, their race, didn't feel like they fit in at, again, a Victoria Secret kind of place, which for most of us for me, I mean, I grew up in Louisville, Kentucky. You went to Macey's, I guess. JCPenney. Or Victoria's Secret. Those were kind of the options. And so if you didn't see what you liked there, you're kind of out of luck. So I think I would go in and feel really alienated by these models that I saw, by the standards that were being imposed. And yeah, it doesn't really appeal. And look, are there people who are just never going to wear a bra? Absolutely. And I'm not here to convince you. Right. You can't be convinced of things that you're really sold on, and that's fine. But if you want to look at it, the earliest documented bra like garment we have is from about 1500 BC. Like, the ancient Egyptians were wearing this sort of bandeau thing that they would fashion out of, like, linen or wool to support their breasts. Right. Because people presumably had back pain then. Right. Our bodies haven't changed shape that radically. People were like, I don't know, whatever ancient Greek women were doing, whether that's getting fanned by servants or working in fields, their backs probably hurt as well. Right. So this isn't exactly a new thing. And there's conversations about corsets, and the images that we have that are so enduring about corsets are those very those tight laced corsets. Right. You see those Gibson girls in those 1910, 1920 advertisements of that super Wasp waist and that was then and is now very much a fetish object. That was for the male gaze as well. Right. But those are the enduring images we have. That being said, women across class boundaries were wearing a corset, and you couldn't really breathe in those fetish, like, tight laced corsets. And so their corsets would have been much looser. Right. But still, the idea there was to be supportive, and so there was pushback then on that. Right. And we didn't see what we now would call a bra until, let's see here. I can't remember what year it was off the top of my head, but this woman, she was like this rich and fancy debutante, and she did not want to wear a bra anymore because sorry, corset anymore because it interfered with her ability to dance as much as she wanted. Because I don't know if you've ever worn a corset, but they're kind of long. A lot of them come down either to the hip or a little lower. And that was like this huge step forward in terms of how much range of motion she had, so sure. Do bras impose a shape on you? They sure do, right? They sure do. That being said, have people been doing this since time immemorial? Yes. Also, I remember her name, which is Caresse Crosby, who invented the bra. I hear people who say that this doesn't make them they don't want to be dressing for the male gaze. They don't want to be dressing in a way that puts sex at the center of their personal style. And I relate to that, and I get it. And I don't want that every day for myself either. That being said, I think that the sort of support and comfort of it really outweighs that. And I think finding a garment that really makes you feel like yourself is the first step in kind of taking that apart. And I hate for the answer of, like, I don't feel good about participating in this element of consumer culture is to find another facet of consumer culture to participate in. But at the end of the day, unless you are extremely small chested, you're probably going to be more comfortable in something that supports you. And at the end of the day, I want everybody to walk out of Underpinnings feeling really comfortable. That's important to me. Does that answer your question?

[10:54] Greer: 
I love that. Oh, my goodness. The context of all that history. I had no idea that women were developing supportive undergarments for thousands of years. Yeah, I had no context for that because my image is definitely sort of Elizabethan or Victorian corsets 100%, the whole kind of sexual ethos of that era, which is so damaging. So this is really kind of empowering.

[11:23] Kirsten: 
Yeah, for sure. How neat. To be clear, I like sexy things. Like, I like to be sexy. I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to feel sexy, whether that's for you, for whatever reason you want to get dressed in the morning or at night, it's up to you if you want to change clothes in the middle. But I will say that it's really important, the context of this, which is that for time immemorial, people have been trying to make themselves more comfortable because boobs are heavy and the bra is what we're doing. Now, at some point they will be supplanted by something else, but right now, that's what we're doing. And again, I think finding something that makes you feel good is really important, and I think that that's in reach for almost everybody. 

[12:06] Greer: 
That's terrific. So just to get real basic, what do the letters and numbers in your bra size mean?

[12:13] Kirsten: 
Let me ask you, so when I say like A cup, B cup, cup, what are you envisioning?

[12:20] Greer: 
I mean, I think I just kind of picture a scale where A is on the smallest end of the scale and C or D is maybe like middle to large. But I don't think I really understand visually what it even means.

[12:35] Kirsten: 
Yeah, that's why I asked you, is because I thought, let me sort of level set here, right. So I think, again, because Victoria's Secret stocks 16 to 25, depending on the store bra sizes in store, right? A sort of Macy's or a Nordstrom will have more, but not maybe 30 sizes in store. At Underpinnings, we have 210 bra sizes in store every day, which is completely greater number than 16. So if you go to a place that doesn't have that many, what they're going to do is they're going to try and fit you into whatever they can. And look, I'm not hating on these people. It's a sales job, right? Their job is to sell you things, but basically, as a result, made to think like, okay, A cup, small, B cup, medium, C cup large, D cup, very large. Anything beyond a D is going to be like Dolly Parton, right? Just like huge knockers. And when I tell people, like, I'm a 30 G or maybe a 32 G, depending on the bra, no one is like, oh, you know Kirsten, right? Because you know how you describe people by their most obvious physical attribute, you're like, you know Greer, she's kind of tall, right? Nobody is describing me as like, you know, Kirsten, she has those huge boots. I have, like, a pretty normal bus line. It's a volume measurement, right? So the first measurement you're going to take is the number measurement, and that measures your ribcage right below where your boob starts. It's going to be right there, and you measure it. I like to take when I'm measuring somebody, I like to take two, one kind of loose and one kind of tight. This is important. So I usually measure my ribcage measures exactly 31 inches, right? So my bras are going to be a 30 or 32, and then the cup is a volume measurement, so it moves. Right? So a person who wears a 42 A and a person who wears a 28 A are going to look really different. So when you're looking at the letter measurement, that's going to be it's a volume measurement based on the difference. So if I'm measuring 32 here, so that means that the difference between the highest furthest out of my bust and my rib cage is about eight inches ish right? Which means each of my breasts is projecting about four inches off. So if you're an A, that means you're 28 inches here. You're 29 inches at the fullest point of your bust. Each of your breasts is projecting, like, a half inch off your body. That's not very much. Right? Not to say that I don't fit people all the time who are an A or a B or a C but it's an A or a B or a C, a C is still a quite small measurement because that means each of your breasts is, again, just an inch and a half off your body, which, if you look down at your own chest, like I hope listeners are doing right now, and you're like, that's definitely more than half an inch. Right? So it's a volume measurement. Let's say I'm a 28 D. That's going to be a small band and still a pretty small cup. Right. If you're looking at a 42 D, that's going to look like a lot more because it is a lot more, right? Because that's 46 inches at broadest point rather than 32 inches at broadest point. And most of the people who work at the store historically are pretty able to, like, I can look at somebody and roughly clock about what they wear, right? It's a cool party trick, but a D cup is not just like, oh, those are going to be big boobs. They're going to look really big on a really small person, but they're going to look really small if you're like six foot, 210 pounds, like you played basketball in college, right? A D is not going to look that big on you, but it's going to look a lot bigger on somebody who's like ultra petite. Does that make sense?

[16:20] Greer: 
It does. So the key is to understand that the letter and the number are to be understood in relationship to each other.

[16:30] Kirsten: 
Yeah.

[16:30] Greer: 
So the cup size, the letter doesn't mean much without the number.

[16:38] Kirsten: 
That's it, your letter means nothing. The letter means nothing without the ribcage number. If you're like, okay, I'm an H cup, right, or whatever. In my mind, I'm like, okay, regardless of what this person's body looks like. Otherwise I can assume this person has relatively, like, a relatively large bust related to their frame. Right. The visual on that is going to be radically different if you're, again, like a 28 or 30 versus a 48 or 50. Right. So, yeah, without the ribcage measurement means nothing. And, like, double D boobs, again, not that big. So we go up to, like I said, an N. So a D is just the beginning. Yeah.

[17:20] Greer: 
Okay, so I'm having a couple different thoughts. One thought is, as people progress throughout time, both of those measurements might change. Like, their rib cage measurements might change as they fluctuate weight?

[17:35] Kirsten: 
Okay. Yes and no. Okay? So my advice, our advice, the advice we check the store is every time you think you should buy new bras, every time it's time to buy new bras, go ahead and get a gut check. Get the fitter to measure you again, right? Because things change. Here's some examples. You have cancer, and one of you, you have a partial or full mastectomy. You have a baby. You stop breastfeeding. You start breastfeeding, you get dumped, and you are so sad, and you lose a bunch of weight really fast. Right? What else? Where you are in your hormonal cycle throughout the month, if you're someone who menstruates and wears a bra, all of those things can impact. That's another example. A lot of times when people are pregnant, their rib cage will flare, and then sometimes it shrinks back, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it shrinks back, but in a different shape than it was before. Bodies are wild, especially with pregnancy. Bodies do wild stuff. So, yeah, keep getting measured throughout your life. And it's so funny because people will tell me, oh, I got measured when I was 16, and I'm like, Cool. Yeah. So my body is exactly the same as it was when I was 16 in every single way, that makes sense! I'm obviously kidding, but your body changes throughout time. That's perfectly normal. It's perfectly okay, but you should try and update your garments accordingly. I will say that your rib cage measurement won't really change that much over time unless you're experiencing something pretty dramatic, whether that's weight loss or weight gain or you're pregnant with triplets. Right. Your cup size will fluctuate a lot more than your band size, as a general rule. And typically when people are gaining and losing weight for whatever reason, your boobs tend to be a place where fluctuation is seen.

[19:32] Greer: 
Okay, yeah, that makes sense. And then you touched on this a little bit. How often should you replace your bras and how often should you get remeasured?

[19:41] Kirsten: 
Yeah, so I would say get remeasured every time you're buying new bras, and you should buy new bras, I wouldn't say on a schedule because it depends on a couple of factors. How many bras do you have? How often are you cycling? How are you caring for them? Do you have really big boobs? Do you have really small boobs? All those things are going to dictate the life of your bra. So fitting people, we have some fit points, and I'm happy to touch on those later. But on the day that you walk out of the store, all of your support comes from the, 95% of the support of the garment comes from the band. The straps are just there to keep it in place. That's a common misperception. So the band should fit quite tightly on the hook. On the day you walk out of the store, that very first day that you're walking around, just you breathing and living your life, you're probably going to permanently gain inch and a half, two inches, sometimes up to four, depending on your size, inches in that band. And elastic only knows how to do one thing, which is relax over time. This is embarrassing to admit, because obviously I work in the lingerie space, but I was wearing a pair of elderly underwear and I was walking around, this was a couple of months ago and I had that terrible moment where I was like, oh, that's it, the elastic is done. So your bra is not special, right? It's going to do that too. Your elastic is going to give out eventually, so I should be able to put if it's fitting great, the day that you are leaving the store, your fitter should be able to slide three fingers under the band in the back. But if you can put your fist in there, it's too big, right? As the elastic relaxes, that's why there's different sets of hooks, right? You clip in, clip in, clip in. There's usually some bras have three, some have four. It's usually you're done when you get to the tightest hook. The day you can put a fist inside the band on the tightest hook, throw it away, they can't be saved. That's it, the elastic is done. You can't save them. I would recommend doing that. Now, that being said, I work in the lingerie space. This is my family business. I have like 100 bras because I get them for free from suppliers who want me to try a new product, or I also buy them at a discount because this is my family business. So I have bras that are like ten years old because I'm rotating through a huge number. But let's say you have two bras, right? And I recommend that people have at least two. And you're cycling every other day because you should give the bra a day off so the elastic can reset, sort of like wearing leather shoes. You should give them a day in between to reset. If you're doing that and then you're taking care of them optimally, which means you are hand washing. I can walk through why that's important? If you'd like, but if you're hand washing and laying flat to dry, like I said, cycling them and you have a sort of medium bust, like you're just doing everything exactly right and you are totally at the dead median. I would say you need to replace those bras about every six months. Is that helpful as a metric?

[22:38] Greer: 
My mind is blown and I need to replace all my bras. 

[22:40] Kirsten: 
You might not. Right? If you go try them on and the band looks great, keep going. Right. There's no reason to throw them away at six months. Like, you don't need to set a G-Cal reminder, but, yeah, they don't last forever. As is true of all of our garments, all the things we own, they wear out, and we're asking a lot of our bras, and especially if you have a larger cup size, the elastic is doing more to support. Right. If you're super, super petite, you might get nine months out of two bras being rotated cyclically like that. If you're a JJ, which is the sort of high end of the cup range, if you're a JJ, you might not get six months. Right. You might be at four months. Like, wow, this is not working for me. And once you've gotten into a bra that really, truly fits you, you can't go back and you'll notice the day that that support starts to not feel supportive anymore, and you will not be able to tolerate it. That's very true of me. Look, when we started this business, my family started this business, I'm like a straight sized cis woman, right? Assigned female at birth. And so I can wear most mall brands pretty comfortably. Right. I'm between, like, a six and a ten in most mall brands. So, like, hell yeah. I was buying Victoria Secret or, like, Target or whatever, and I pulled one out of the drawer that I just, like, forgot to jettison, and I put it on, and it was the size I was positive I was, which is a 34 D, which is actually a kind of unusual bra size, right? And I put it on, I was like, Jesus, I can't believe I was living like this. Uncomfortable. I was miserable. So, yeah, I think a lot of people are very shocked to hear this, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news that people want these garments to last, like, ten years, and they will, a bunch of them, but they won't. If you're wearing the same two every day in the same way that your jeans are going to give out or your favorite blouse for work, your Nikes or whatever else.

[24:36] Greer: 
Yeah, that's really helpful. And I love the trick you described about testing it with your fingers, because when you wear things day in and day out, even if you are cycling between them, you don't notice the elastic gradually relaxing. So you don't really have a baseline. 

Kirsten: 
You sure don't. 

Greer: 
I replaced my wear to work bras not too long ago, so they're not the bad ones. But I'm thinking, like, all of my sports bras are probably five years plus old, and that's horrifying.

[25:04] Kirsten: 
Oh, Greer. Yeah. And those are the ones that matter the most. Right. Because that's the thing that's holding you down while you're doing cardio, and that's where you're going to be the most comfortable right. That's where comfort is. Like such, it's most essential. There we go. It's to have a sports bra that really fits, especially if you like to do impact sports at all. Yeah.

[25:26] Greer: 
Okay. You've inspired me. I have homework you mentioned time to throw it out when the elastic is done. Time to throw it out. Any creative ideas about what to do with old bras other than throwing them out? I feel so bad about just throwing things out.

[25:38] Kirsten:  
Because it's an intimate garment, places don't want to receive them as donations for obvious reasons. There's not much to be done for them. We collect them at the store and we'll give like a voucher. If they buy a new bra and give us an old one, they get a small discount. We collect them and we give them to a small organization. So they are a halfway house for women and trans people who are leaving, escaping from sex trafficking, people who had been in a sort of prostitution situation. Because even the bras that aren't that great, that are in pretty rough shape, are going to be a thing that is a leg up for these people as they're trying to get their lives on track. There's not a ton of great reuse and I wish I had a better answer, but I do not, actually. I will say that some places that do fabric, recycling, H and M comes to mind will take a bra, but they will not take panties. Panties are just your out of luck.

[26:39] Greer: 
Oh, yeah. Please don't. I work in housing and homeless services. Please do not donate old panties to your favorite charity. We do not want them.

[26:47] Kirsten: 
Nobody wants them. You'd be surprised people try to do that.

[26:53] Greer: 
Oh, boy. So this might be like an urban myth or something like that. So bust it if you need to. So I've heard people say that your breasts will change based on the type of support you're receiving or not receiving. Like the size and the shape of your breasts will change. Is that true or is that just nuts?

[27:13] Kirsten: 
No, I know what you're saying. So I think the answer people to have is that if you wear a bra all the time, your boobs will never sag. You will have your tits under your chin like you're 19 until the day you die. And unfortunately, there is nothing you can do. Gravity is coming for all of us. That's it. And the reality is your boobs are going to sag eventually. It's just like that. But you can change the shape of how your breasts look in your clothes with different shapes of bra, and I'm happy to get into the details on that, but you can do that. But when you take it off, that's still your body underneath there. So it's going to revert pretty easily. And I wish I had a great answer where I'm like, here's the trick for your boobs to look how you want them to forever, but unfortunately, it's coming for all of us. Some people bounce right back after nursing. Some people have never had a baby, and they have a lot of sag. Hormones are wild, and body changes are happening to all of us. Nothing's wrong with you, but there's not a lot you can do to permanently alter the shape of your body that's not surgical.

[28:23] Greer: 
Okay, another myth busted. That's helpful. What advice would you have for women who need a bra size that's substantially outside of what's commonly carried in department stores?

[28:34] Kirsten: 
Like I said at the top of this interview, victoria's Secret and your Nordstrom are going to carry 16 to maybe 30 at our maximum bras that you can try on store. There is a bra size calculator online that I think is it's not as good as getting fit professionally. It just isn't. But it's about as close as you can get. Now you need to have a friend that you feel comfortable being topless in front of to really work. It's a two person measurement. It's called A Bra That Fits. And they do good work. Like, I am a big fan of their method, but if you are somebody who has struggled to find a bra that fits, go to a specialty store, look online, check their reviews, see what there is. Look on their website. If you feel like you need to call ahead, call ahead. I was talking to some fitters from other stores, from other stores around the country, and these people are really excited and happy to help you. You cannot make a substitution for a qualified professional fitter. This is what we do as my family business day in, day out. And that's your best option. Especially if you're someone who is outside the more traditional size matrix, which I hate thinking of it like that because almost nobody is that size. Doubly so there, right? Like, doubly so if you're somebody who has a pretty large chest or you're transitioning gender or you've had a major medical situation of some kind, definitely get fit by professional because there's no substitute for it. That's my best advice. Especially. Do not buy like eight bras on Amazon and then return seven of them. First of all, this will frustrate you so much, right? Because just knowing your bra size is about half the information you need. There's also the shape of your breast. Where is your breast planted on your chest? Are you projected? Are you shallow? What are your boobs like? Right? And that determines the style that's going to give you the most comfortable fit. Not as much as, but almost as much as the size itself. The other reason not to do this is most of those bigger stores, your Amazon, your Walmart's, I don't know. Think of any large, very large retailer. If you return a bunch of stuff they buy online, they throw it away. I worked at Amazon in the fashion department. And the reality is that the cost of restocking, because restocking is the biggest hassle of online merchandising, period, is not equal to the benefit to resell it. So if you are buying seven or eight bras just to try and get it right, not only are you going to frustrate yourself, you're going to feel bad about your body because you get this feedback loop in your brain like, something's wrong with me and nothing's wrong with you. If the garment doesn't fit you. The garment is the problem, not you.

[31:20] Greer: 
Wow, that's really dispiriting. But thanks for sharing that. That's important to be aware of. And I was listening to you describe all those different attributes about your breasts and how your breasts are positioned on your chest and all of this. So I'm realizing bra fitting is not just about telling you your numbers and your letters. It's about kind of the whole perspective and giving you advice about what kind of cut is going to fit you, maybe even what kind of brand is going to do well for you.

[31:51] Kirsten: 
100%. So if you think about every pair of pants in your closet, like I said earlier in the interview, I wear about a six or a ten somewhere in that range. I have things in my closet right now that are a size zero that I can put on my body right now. I also have a dress that I bought at Anthropology off of the clearance rack that is a size 20, and it fits me, my current body, right now. So, like, bras are no different. Right. And what we have found for us is that we stock a couple of dozen brands in the store. And what we have found is that these brands that tout themselves as being size inclusive, are the ones that are doing the worst job of fitting bodies. What it makes a lot more sense is to cater to a really narrow customer. A bra is the most complicated piece of, just the most complicated piece of apparel that is broadly available on the market, right? They have hundreds of pieces, whereas a pair of sweatpants has like, five pieces. Right? Your bra's got over 100 pieces. You want to have a brand that is going to cater to a more narrow demographic. We've got a brand. For example, the Little Bra Company. I adore them. Emily, their designer, is wonderful, and she caters only to ultra petite, right? Because that has a totally different set of needs. I've got a different brand called Elela that caters only to large band because that's a totally different set of concerns. So they do all the way from an A to an N, but only in that 48, 52, 54 band. I've got a brand, Panache, and I'm obsessed with our rep, Jacqueline, but she brings us stuff that is, they do large cup, and they have three different lines, one for large band, large cup, one for large band, small cup, and then one that kind of does the middle there. And those brands with a really specific idea of fabrication for how that's going to work for the engineering. Your bra has more in common with a pair of sneakers than it does with the blouse. And that's a really important thing to remember that are thinking about a certain kind of person who's going to wear this garment. They're going to be a lot more effective at fitting your body than someone who's trying to serve every single client. Grading patterns, especially in the lingerie space, is incredibly expensive. And the kind of people who are able to manufacture bras are incredibly specialized. So it's much better to think about who is designing for me, right, and then going to those brands. So, for example, we have one brand that I'm thinking of that it either likes you or it doesn't. I joke that it's like tequila. Like it kind of picks you, right? And if I put a bra on a client and it does not fit this person, I don't bring another one into the dressing room because this is not their bra. Right. This is not their client. A really wide gore, and the gore is a piece that sits on your sternum between your breasts. A wide gore or a narrow gore is going to be dictated by where your breast is planted on your chest. And so if you have a wide plant breasts, you're going to want a wider gore. A lot of people think they don't like an underwire, and that's because they're in a style that's not fitting them or a size that's not correct in an underwire bra. I can sleep in my underwear bras and not notice them. If you're in an underwire that really fits you and supports you, you should not notice it. That's the importance of finding a style and a brand that really works for you. For example, I cannot wear anything that buttons from Banana Republic. Pullovers all day, but my boobs are too big for Banana Republic, so I just don't do that. Bras, shoes exactly the same. Right. These things are just going to have brands that fit you better and don't, and that's fine. It's totally neutral. There is nothing wrong with you.

[35:07] Greer: 
I'm learning so much. You were talking about hooks before and how the hooks are there so that it kind of prolongs the life of the bra as the elastic goes away. I hate hooks. They really make me itch, and there has never been a workaround for that. So I tend to buy bras that don't have hooks at all. Does that just mean I probably need to replace them faster, or is there some reason that you really should be using the hooks?

[35:29] Kirsten: 
Do you mean to pull over? Yes, exactly. I don't know about since we've never met in person, I don't know what your body is like, but generally they're just not that supportive. They're really comfortable. And I have some like I was wearing one yesterday because I was just kind of messing around the house because I have kind of big boobs and so I can't really, I joke that stairs without a bra are just not an option for me. It's just too uncomfortable. So I have one that I wear on the house that's wireless, and then I pull over my head, it's fine. But in terms of the stuff that's really supportive, you're going to need those hook and eyes and that's going to be a question usually depending on your individual body. But usually we can solve that problem of it being comfortable or uncomfortable. That being said, I was fitting a client the other day who has Psoriasis, and it's activated by the pressure from any kind of pressure, really. Like if she's wearing these are tight or a heavy shoulder bag or something, she gets a psoriasis outbreak. So she's going to be a client who the relative support is kind of irrelevant because the Psoriasis is just the bigger problem. So usually we can solve that problem. Usually most design problems that people have had historic issues with, if we find a bra that really fits you and really works, we can work around it. But if you are somebody who truly can't and you need like a pullover or something like that, then yeah, because if you think about it, you're pulling the elastic more widely over your head as you're pulling it over each day. And that's going to stress the elastic more, which will wear it out faster. On our website, we have some how to's and some things like that, and we talk about how to put your bra on properly. And I know this can seem really didactic and look, whatever works for you works for you and that's great. But putting it on in the most optimal way, again, does prolong the life of the bra because it puts less stress on the elastic.

[37:06] Greer: 
Oh, that totally makes sense. And I like the idea of that how to, because I could not figure out how to hook my hooks without just like hooking them and pulling it over until I was out of college. I think it was so complicated.

[37:18] Kirsten: 
Well, and nobody shows you this stuff, right? You're just supposed to figure it out. And yeah, I think the proper way to put on a bra, which again, you can watch the video. I'm not going to verbally explain it because it's kind of confusing to explain it. It's also boring. You have to practice it every morning for two weeks and then it'll feel really easy. But yeah, it's like learning to tie your shoes or whatever else. You just have to figure it out. But whatever method works for you is fine. But no, it does totally elastic. And if you're looking to optimize, that's important.

[37:48] Greer: 
Yeah, and could you just talk through the actual fitting process? Because a lot of people have anxiety when they don't know what they're walking into. So just explain as basic as like, are you totally going to be nude on your torso when someone measures you? Are you going to still be wearing, like, an undershirt? What should people picture?

[38:09] Kirsten: 
I'm going to walk you through what we do at our store. I can't tell you what they're going to do at every store. What I have found, and I have been to dozens, if not hundreds of different lingerie stores around the world. Every time I'm somewhere, I stop in their local lingerie store, I get fit. I see what they're doing because there's something to learn from every single person that you interact with. But I'll tell you what we do at our store, and I think it produces the most effective result because for me and for the people who work with me at Underpinnings, close enough is not good enough. For me. We can get you something that works. There's no reason to settle for just okay. And people tend to be pretty bad at describing their bodies. That's okay. This is what we do all day, not what you do all day. And it's a lot more helpful if you do it the way I'm about to describe. So what we do is you can make an appointment, and if that's something that makes you more comfortable, or you can walk in for our store, specifically, I recommend an appointment on Saturdays. But any other day, you're probably good to walk in. So what you're going to do, you're going to come in, we're going to chat with you a little bit about what you're looking for today. Do you need a strapless bra for an upcoming event? Are you looking for a nursing bra? Are you looking for everyday pieces? You're going to wear the office? Is it something sexy? Is it something exciting? Is it you want something blue? I don't know. So we're going to have you go in the sitting room, close the drape, you're going to take your top off, and you're going to leave your bra on. And then I'm going to come in with my little tape measure. I'm going to do two quick measurements. One of your bust and one of your ribcage. And this is the part where I always joke, this is more of an art than a science because there's so many value judgments that go into what's going to fit you. But that gives me a really good jumping off point. Now, that being said, some people are optical illusions, and I'm so wrong, it's hilarious when I bring something out. But for the most part, we can get pretty close. So I take your measurements. I do the quick the quick math. And by the way, just as a side note for your listeners, different countries measure cups in different ways. So look up the conversion chart online if you're going to buy something from whatever country, because they can be pretty radically different. Anyway. But I'll have your general idea of what I want. So I'll go back there and I have a specific bra. It's the Panache, Clara, that I like to fit with. I joke that it's the pace car because it's so reliable garment to garment, size to size. So I can be like, okay, this is a little too big or a little too small here or there. So I need to go up or down. So what we do is we then we have you take your bra off. So you're going to be topless in front of someone you don't know. And when we opened the store, I thought people were going to be so weird about this. And it turns out it's like the least awkward thing. That being said, if you're just wildly uncomfortable, we'll find a workaround for you, don't worry. But for the most part, it really isn't as weird as it seems. So you're going to take your bra and then I, or whatever fitter you're working with, we're going to kind of dress you like a little Barbie doll. So we put the bra on up to your elbows, right? And then the fitter is going to get under there, under your arms, and pull back and close the bra around your back, around the bra that's pointing your back. And then this is the part where I show you how to put your bra on correctly in the morning. So again, I'm checking to make sure the bra is in the right hook, right? I've got all the, we pull the straps up on your elbows, and then you are going to lean forward 45 degrees at the waist, right. Get gravity on your side because all of this is breast tissue. It all counts. And you're going to reach with your opposite hand. So you take your right hand and put it under your left armpit. And you're going to pull forward from like kind of further back than you think to bring everything forward to the front. And that's, again, all breast tissue right there. It's still breast tissue most of the way to your back. I'm like touching my own body right now. I'm trying to come up with the measurement, but it's most of the way to my back. And again, this is like a I'm sure I know you've been talking to doctors on your show, but make sure your doctor is checking there when you go for your annual for lumps, bumps, tumors, moles, anything like that. That's all breast tissue. So make sure you're checking. And then while you're still doing that, take your, again, you're still your right hand under your left breast and pull up to make sure your entire breast is over the wire. And then use your free hand to kind of jiggle the top line of the bra over and then repeat. Now again, leaning forward 45 degrees. You get gravity on your side. That gets everybody all the way in. That's how you should put your bra on every morning. That's going to be how you're the most comfortable. That's going to keep your underwire from poking you. That's going to look best under your clothes, like whatever else. Cool. So so now the fitter, me or whoever else is going to check you to see how we're doing. So we talked already about the band, right? The band should be tight on the loosest hook with three fingers under the band. I want to see the gore, the part that is right between your breasts, and it's where the underwire is like the curve of the underwire is up. That gore should tack flat to your chest, right against your sternum. And that's going to be again, that's an important fit point. There should be no bubbling, like what some people would call like quad boob. There should be no bubbling at the top, but there also shouldn't be any slack in the top. So there shouldn't be any gaps anywhere. And there shouldn't be any wrinkling at the bottom of the cup, which indicates that you're not filling the garment all the way in. And then your shoulder straps should not slip. So, fun fact, your shoulder straps, unless you have incredibly, unusually narrow shoulders, should never slip off if you have the right band size on, that's also a good indicator for you when it's time to start thinking about replacing your bra. I digress. So far so good, then, I'm just going to bring you a gajillion bras. We're going to try them all on just like this first one. And we're going to just yes, no, yes, no, yes, no. We'll be able to identify pretty quickly what styles work on you. Are you somebody who really needs a piece cup? And a piece cup is the one that has all the different pieces. Sometimes they're called cut and sew. I love those because they're a more precise fit. Maybe you're somebody who a balconette is not for you and you really need a triangle shape because that's the shape of your breast. And as we go, it gets faster and faster and faster. If I'm not right on my first try, which is usually, we're going to adjust. So I'm like, okay, the band is too big. I need to go down a band. So I go in and go down a band. And if you go down a band, you're going to go up a cup size, right? Because that's how sister sizes work. And I can explain that if you would like in a second Greer. Yeah. So we'll adjust, adjust, adjust, adjust. And then once we find the right thing, we'll bring everything that you want to try on. And then toward the end of the appointment, that's when I like to talk about how to care for your bra. That's a time that I'm going to want to talk about solutions, pieces, if you need, like I said earlier, strapless bra, fashion tape, nipple covers, whatever else. And that's going to be a time that we talk about, do you want matching underwear? What kind of other things do you need? And that's usually the process and I would say start to finish. Most people are in and out in about 45 minutes. It's not that bad. It's really very chill. And the youngest client I've ever served was eleven, and the oldest was approaching 100. She didn't want to say, but and was in a wheelchair at that point. So we really can serve every kind of body and we're proud to do that.

[45:02] Greer: 
Again, you're just blowing my mind. I'm learning so much. I feel like my breasts change a lot during my menstrual cycle. Is there a better or a best time in your menstrual cycle to come in to get fit?

[45:13] Kirsten: 
So no, not really. They do. You're not crazy. That's right. They do change kind of a lot. I'm up and down about a cup size, I would say, throughout the cycle. No, but be aware of that. So if you are ovulating, that tends to be when your breasts are largest. And so if you're coming in and you're like this bra basically is comfortable, but looks just like a little on the small side, be aware of the fact that you're ovulating and you might be a full cup size down this time next week. Again, if you're at the low point there, just keep it in mind. And if you can remember to do that, tell your fitter. If not, usually it's okay. We try not to get things fit so, so tight that like that won't work for you. But yeah. And then if you are been nursing, we recommend that you don't come in for a nursing bra until you've been nursing for a couple of weeks. We'll say three or four. If you have finished nursing, we recommend that you wait six full weeks until your breasts kind of normalize. And if you've had any kind of breast surgery, we would like you to have clearance from your doctor and for your surgerical scars, whatever they may be, to be more white than red. And again, that's going to be a conversation between you and your doctor. But more white than red is a general role there. Okay, yeah.

[46:24] Greer: 
Good to know. Wow, you have covered so much ground. You talked about sister sizes. What did sister sizes mean?

[46:31] Kirsten: 
Yes, absolutely. Okay, so like I mentioned earlier, you know how sometimes you're a six and a half in a shoe and then you try on a loafer in that brand and you're like a seven? Yeah. Okay. So it's sort of like that, so you can bump around a little bit. I'm going to use my own body as an example. So I'm a 32 G and if I'm like this band, just like, I don't know, man, I want more room. I think I should maybe bump up to a 32 because I usually wear a 30 or 30, or I'm like, I want to bump up to 34. So if I bump up to 34, I'm going to track back one cup size because again, it's a volume measurement that's relative, right? So in a 34 band, I'm going to wear an F or an FF, depending on the brand. If they make it to F or double F, if I'm like, I feel like my boob is kind of spilling out of this. I need more cup. I'm going to go down to a 30 band. I'm going to be AGG or an H. If I'm going down, if you extrapolate from that, I can go as far as I want with this, but it's going to be miserable at some point. If I try to cram myself into a 28 band, that would be a 28. I'd be like, Ahh, right. A 28 double H. I'm not going to be able to breathe. That being said, they're going to be up and out. They're going to look, the girls are going to be up and out because they got a lot of support there because it's real tight. I'm going to be miserable. But it will, I guess, kind of, it, if you can get in there, the inverse is also true. I could go up to a 38. What would that make me like? A 38 double D? But I'm going to be swimming in the band, and that's not going to look great. It's not going to be comfortable. That being said, if there's like a bra you really love and it's a fashion piece and it looks really cool and sexy, yeah, you can get a sister size. It's like not fitting, that great. It's not your everyday driver or it's not your workhorse, that's fine. But that's also how people get in the wrong bra size of Victoria's Secret, right? They're trying to get you into a cup that fits, and so they just band you up. So if you've got kind of big boobs, if you're like me, you're a G. So they're looking at me in a 32 double D, which is the biggest size they have in the store, and I am just falling out of the cup. The only way to get more cup is to get more band. So they're going to move me up until I'm in a 36 or 38 double D, and I'm not getting any support, but my entire boob is covered, right? So sister sizing can go too far, but yeah, up or down one, that's how it works. So if you're looking at something and you're like, I really love this. They don't have my size. It's really pretty. I can't wait to wear it. I'm a 32 B, but they have it in a 34 A, like screw it, I'm doing it. That's fine. And then again, it can be a comfort measurement to kind of play around at the margins. But it can also be like a cheat for if you want to wear something fun and they don't have your size.

[49:15] Greer: 
Sure. And then maybe could you say a word about style because I feel like push up bras were all the rage in my teens and then now bralettes seem to be super popular and I'm wondering, is style just totally personal preference and the level of support you feel like you're getting? Or do some things work better for some bodies?

[49:36] Kirsten: 
It's both. So some of these things are going to be like what makes you feel good about your body. And I we'll double back to push up bras in a second because this is a particularly contentious issue that is very near to my heart. Bralettes. Again, I think that if you're above a certain cup size or if you have a small band, big cup sort of situation, you're going to want a cup and band bralette. And we fit those and they're very comfortable, just like non underwire. They're really nice. Those pull over your head pieces though, tend to not really work after a certain size. Yeah. So for example, really comfortable talking about my boobs on the internet, I guess. But I carry my volume really evenly, like bottom, right? So some people carry most of their volume at the bottom, some carry it up to the sides. So I carry mine pretty evenly. That means it's kind of the equivalent of having an oval face and picking what bangs you're going to get. Right. If you have kind of my boob shape, you have a lot of options. I can wear a balcony and that's fine. But if you carry all of your weight at the bottom of your breast, a balconette might be a really good for you because you don't have enough boob to fill at the top. And then you're going to have bunchy feeling and that doesn't feel good. It doesn't look good. If you carry all of your weight sort of to the sides, a triangle shape, for example, might look amazing on you. I can't promise this is going to work on everybody, but that's because that's going to give you shape and support out to the sides. If I bring you a bra, I'm like, this is not your bra, but you are feeling yourself, great. The important thing is that you feel really good about how you walk out. I think people usually feel best in the garments they're in once they've gotten something that really suits their shape. And the second you get that on your body and you see yourself in the mirror, you know it and you feel so good and it's great. You pull your top on over and you're like, damn, I look like a new person. This is great. Push up bras, though, they were the norm when I was growing up. That's very much, again, the Victoria's Secret beauty, ideal male gaze boob thing. Push up bras are really hard to fit correctly. T shirt bras, which were another thing that were very popular in like the late 90s to the aughts. T shirt bras are also really hard to fit because for t shirt bras, your boob has to be the shape molded cup and so if you find one that your boob really fits in really nicely, you should probably buy it because they're pretty hard to fit. I have one that fits me really well and then most of them don't. Yeah. So a cut and sew it's going to be just way easier to fit. I am on a personal one woman crusade to get everybody in a cut and sew, take that for what it's worth. Push up bras the same problem kind of, which is that if you are a truly really petite person, you're a true like 30 A. There's only really two ways you can be a 30 A because you have to be really petite for that to work. That's a really small rib cage. It's a really small breast. So you either carry your volume of your breast wide or narrow. That's it. So those companies focus on those petites, right. Two models, one for people who want to push in, who need more at the middle, right. To give you that push up look after about about a C cup in any band size period, it's really hard to a push up bra that fits. So like for me, a 32 G, there is no push up bra for me that's not happening. Right. The way I get that up and out look that I sometimes want is through a bra that really fits really well. And then I will emphasize that with a balconette style, which again really is up and out. If you're over a 38, regardless of your cup size, it's really hard to find a push up bra that's going to give you that cleavage that some people really like. Because to gather all your breast in it's a further distance. Right. So you're going to need to get taller band if you're like a 40 and you want me to cram you into a 30 C, I mean I can do it maybe, but you're going to be so miserable. So to get that up and outlook, it's going to be a question of just finding a bra that fits and a band that you support. Did I answer your question?

[53:41] Greer: 
Yes. My head is just spinning with all the new knowledge. So I'm super appreciative for all your time today. My last question, which I ask everyone is what advice do you have on listening well to our bodies?

[53:57] Kirsten: 
If something feels bad, it is bad, right? Something doesn't feel good in the dressing room for whatever reason. If it itches, if it pinches, if it feels bad, speak up, tell your fitter, ask for what you want. We might not have it, right, like we might not be able to accommodate the thing that you're hoping for, but if it feels bad in the fitting room, it's going to feel really bad 6 hours into your day as a bank teller or as a construction manager or whatever, it's going to feel pretty miserable. And the other thing is how you look is up to you. And so if you like how you look in this, that's great. And that's what we're trying to affirm. And I think listening to your body, listening to how you feel in your body is going to be the best cue you're going to get for what's going to really work for you at the end of the day. A bra is a tool, right? And it's not a prescription. It's important to me that our clients leave feeling affirmed and feeling better about their bodies when they left. And the last word I will say about that is if you are in a situation getting fit in any apparel situation, but if you're in a bra situation and they're like making you feel bad about your body or making you feel like the garment is the arbiter of good versus what is your body is actually the arbiter of good, leave. Just leave and write a Google review. You should leave because it should be an affirming and fun and positive experience. Although I admit sometimes it's not that fun, right? Sometimes it can be kind of stressful, but it should be a positive experience. And if you feel like you are not getting the respect that you deserve and your body deserves, bail and go somewhere where you will feel respected. And I hope that's us. I would love to see really anybody in our store who wants a bra that fits. And yeah, that's my best advice for listening to your body is go places and do things that make it feel good and look good.

[55:37] Greer: 
That's really great advice. Thank you so much. I'm excited about the resources that you've shared with us for the show notes, so if people are looking for more information, they can find it in the show notes. And thanks again for all your time today, Kirsten.

[55:51] Kirsten: 
This is so much fun. My pleasure and I look forward to seeing some of your listeners in our shop.

[56:03] Greer: 
If today's episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can email me at Femammalpodcast@gmail.com that's femammalpodcast@gmail.com. You can also follow this podcast on Facebook. Just search for Femammal Podcast and you will find a community of people who are interested in living well in our bodies. And of course, I'd love for you to rate this podcast and leave a review wherever you download your podcasts. Until next time, be well.