Hi, I'm Reshma Sajani, founder of Girls Who Code. Look, I'd consider myself a pretty successful adult woman. I've written books, founded two successful nonprofits, and I'm raising two incredible kids. But here's the thing. I still wake up wondering, is this it? And if the best years are yet to come, when's that going to start? Join me on My So-Called Midlife, my new podcast with Lemonada Media.
where we're building a playbook for navigating midlife one episode at a time. Each week, I'll chat with extraordinary guests who've transformed their midlife crisis into opportunities for growth. and newfound purpose. At some point, we all ask ourselves, is there more to life? I'm here to discover how to thrive in my second act, right alongside you. My So-Called Midlife is out now, wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Jillian Anderson is an actor, activist, and writer, probably best known for her role as Dana Scully. How do you pronounce that? In The X-Files, yes, alongside me, David Duchovny, Fox Mulder.
Jillian has received critical acclaim for her work in stage productions like A Streetcar Named Desire and in the popular shows Sex Education and The Crown, among others. She's championed a lot of charity work in her life, more than I'd have time to mention, and she's also published half a dozen books.
since the X-Files wrapped, including a fantasy trilogy. Her most recent book is called Want, which is a collection of anonymous fantasies from women around the world. She has a line of beverages called G-Spot, which she brought with her to the studio where we recorded. We have a wide-ranging conversation coming up, and we go through the past, we go through the future, and we even touch upon the present. This was a really nice conversation, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk so...
easily and candidly after all these years. Here's Gillian Anderson. How many liquids do I have here, David Duchovny? Can I count? Well, carbonated water, still water, some kind of big green thing, coffee-looking thing. Yeah, that's an unsweetened tea. Unsweetened tea. That looks kind of good. And then guess what this is? I hope it's a G-spot.
I'm glad we're doing radio. Yeah, I'm actually going to share it with you because it's so good. Tell me about this one. It's a lovely shade of purple. Yeah, it's like a lavender, isn't it? It is indeed. That's because of butterfly pea. Is that right? Yeah, absolutely. Is that actually right? That is actually right. I'm drinking butterfly pee? Yeah, you are. Can you tell me why that's good for me?
It is an aphrodisiac, which is what this particular drink is. It's called a rouse because it is actually an aphrodisiac. It's got L-citrulline and L-organine in it, which... I think it expands the blood vessels. Does it really? So it gives you a little rush of blood to the head. I'm not even making that up, but it works. I'll wait until it will clink and we'll... Yeah, yeah. Cheers. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. Well, that's nice. It's refreshing. I love you branching out into...
Other areas. It's impressive and it's inspiring. I have your want book here. I have to say I love the cover. Good cover, right? I love the cover. Yeah. That was Bloomsbury. Yeah. I want to thank you for coming on and, you know, reaching out at the time you did and saying you like the podcast and, you know, it would be nice to come on and all that. And I was just wondering, what was it that you thought?
might be good about coming on the podcast? Oh, when I first started listening and I reached out to you, I wasn't thinking about it necessarily in terms of me or talking to you about the book. It was more of just... of really enjoying it and listening to the depth of your conversations that you were getting into with people and appreciating that I felt like I was learning.
more about you than I knew or than I ever knew. Isn't that interesting? Because I thought having you on today, obviously, we know each other very deeply, and yet we don't know each other. Yes. In some weird way. And I thought, what am I looking forward to today? I'm looking forward to that. Yeah. You know, even if it's just biographical, I don't know that we ever sat down and said.
Hey, what was your childhood like? No, we didn't. And why would we? We were busy. We were busy, but maybe early on we did, but I don't remember. That might be something that you do when you're older or you appreciate knowing those details about people maybe when you're older than you might know when you're younger. I don't know. Yeah. But I'm looking forward to that part as well. And I was just wondering.
With the topic above the podcast is about failure. If you actually thought about that before you came on today and you thought, oh. I would talk about that thing or that other thing. I will talk about all my failures. No, no. Openly with you. Both of them. One of them. The failure. Whatever it was. But that's cool that we're on the same page, I think. Yeah. I mean I was looking forward to coming on to more than anything just to explore.
As you say, a conversation that I don't feel like we ever had. But also, you're right, that we have a closeness that we don't have with probably many other people. And went through something that we didn't go through with any other people. I mean, yes, there were crew and et cetera, but in terms of our experience as actors. And so I thought it would be a curious investigation. Yeah. The part of this conversation that...
is the trickiest part for me. I guess I would talk about my failure of friendship or my failure of companionship or just co-starring this. There was a long time. working on the show where we were just not even dealing with one another off camera. And there was a lot of tension, which didn't... It didn't matter, apparently, for the work because we're both fucking crazy, I guess. We could just go out there and do what we needed to do. It is kind of crazy.
It's nuts, but we were so busy and it was like— I mean, it's crazy that we were able to present on camera the various feelings and emotions and attraction and all that kind of stuff, but then— Not speak to each other for weeks at a time or whatever. Yeah, it's very odd. Isn't it? But in a way, maybe it was smart. I don't know. Because we're like saving it up. I don't know. But I could have handled myself better.
And as you know, we went through a crazy making kind of a process with this thing. We went from, I mean, I was pretty inexperienced. You were really inexperienced. And all of a sudden. It's hard to imagine with the internet now, but it was like a global phenomenon before the internet. And we're just scurrying trying to figure out who we are. You're a little younger than me too. You're very young.
At least I'm in my 30s. You're in your 20s. Just turn your world upside down completely. So I think we both kind of, I don't want to speak for you, but for me it was, I was trying to. Figure out who I am in all this. What's my part in this? I want to take advantage of it. You know, like how do I make this into my career? You know, that kind of stuff. And I quit the show.
You know, like seven years later. I never apologized to you for that. I don't know that I even talked to you about it. And then you said you weren't going to do the show anymore, like the last time we did it. And I know that hurt my feelings. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. And I don't know if I hurt your feelings the first time I quit. You know, it wasn't so much, I get it. You know, like, okay, and I support it, whatever it is you want to do.
But I was like, oh, she's quitting me. She doesn't like working with me anymore. It was like that little kid inside is going like, hey. And then I was like, but I didn't say anything to her back in the day. Can I speak to some of that? Please. I'm fucking talking so much. I mean, I think back when, I mean, communication is everything.
It's everything. And yet it's really hard. It's hard to be vulnerable. It's hard to—I know that any time that I— Anytime that I tried to express myself, I then almost the standing up for myself. almost felt worse than keeping it inside. Why? Was that because of my reaction? No, I think it was like it allowed the fear to come in.
You spoke it into being? Yeah. And so suddenly, rather than being able to hold it together and push through it and just, you know, not deal with it, I think that's how I dealt as a child. It's just don't talk about it, don't talk about it, just deal. And so if I continue to do that, I know how to do that. The minute I speak to my... My fear or my concern or I am suddenly, my knees go weak and I can't do the scene. It's like if I don't speak to it, I can do my work. If I do speak to it.
I'm weakened and my voice goes and I couldn't show up for myself. I'm the exact opposite. Like if I can just say it. You don't have to say you're right or you're wrong or whatever. I'm just like, okay, now I can do it. But I didn't. That's now. I know. See, I can do that now. But back then, I think, as a 20-whatever-year-old. Yeah.
I couldn't. Well, I couldn't as a 30-whatever-year-old. Yeah. And it's still not easy because I don't like confrontation. I grew up in a family as well that confrontation was dangerous. Yeah. Like I had a fragile parent. Who, if I confronted that parent, shit could happen. You know, bad shit could happen in the family or whatever. So every time I'm in a situation where I'm going to stand up for myself or confront, I get those.
You know, those feelings. They're my body. Do you remember? I have an image of like the most dysfunctional we ever were. Tell me. No, but I want you to think. Maybe you have it too. I want to know if it's the same one. Or you can give me your one. You can think about yours while I tell you mine. Tell me. Unless you have something. No, no, no. Please, I don't have anything immediately. It was some Emmys. Oh.
And it was the day after, and I had a private plane, and I was giving you a ride. And you were late, and I was so angry. And then we sat on this private plane. flying to Vancouver from L.A., not talking, and you wrote me a letter. So you're just like six feet away from me writing a letter to me that you give to me. And it's a beautiful letter. I don't remember it exactly, but it was appreciative and it was all the things that I wanted to hear. Right, right.
But it's just amazing that we couldn't just have that. You know, the fact that it's a private plane, it's just all ridiculous. I had no memory that we were even on a private plane together, let alone that I wrote you a letter on one. Interesting. The other one, early on. And this is so funny to think about with Chris. Because I think we were kind of butting heads so early on.
In the first season that Chris asked us if we would go into fake couples therapy. Really? Did he? Yeah, like would we go into like TV character couple therapy? I don't remember that. I remember sitting in his office with you. Really? And Chris was like, yeah, do you guys want to go into therapy? And I was like, you mean as Mulder and Scully? I'm confused.
And, yeah, I remember that. I don't remember that. I've got such a bad memory. I'm trying to think of any. I just remember, I mean, our hours. Well, yeah, I mean. It would make you insane to try to do a sleep deprivation. You were pregnant as well in the first year. You had a baby the first year. I mean, I can't imagine that you could remain sane, okay, at whatever age you were.
24, and you get pregnant, you're on a show that blows up. Your dreams are coming true in a way, but it's also a nightmare now. Getting a divorce. Well, that'll happen when you have a baby. I mean, yeah. I mean, I do remember times where I just bawled my eyes out. It would have to be.
But I don't know how you would keep a straight thought in your head. And I do remember you coming into my trailer and telling me you were pregnant. I remember that too. You remember that? Yeah. I think it was the same day that Blue had been spayed, I think. I do. Yeah, but it's hard. It's hard under those circumstances, I think, to, you know, it required us to be, you know. Uber adults very quickly. And I have to imagine that under those extreme circumstances that the only thing...
At times that's going to want to come out is actually our child and not our adult at all. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This month, I'm making it a point to focus on gratitude, thanking the people in my life who show up for me and are always there, like my incredibly supportive family.
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This is kind of about failure. We missed a chance to, you know, have a... What's the word I'm looking for? An asset or a... You know, because you're the only person that knows what I was going through and I'm the only person that knows what you're going through. And we didn't make use of that. Yeah. You know, it reminds me like. In my lifetime, my dad and I didn't really do it, and he's dead now, and I can't. So there's things that you can miss if you don't try to stand up and say, you know.
But just be vulnerable and say, I'd like to know what it's like for you. I know that I never asked that. Yeah. Me neither. To your point about you ending—I mean, we never talked about it. I don't think I ever blamed you. I think there was part of me that— Are you talking about— The initial one? Yeah, the initial one. Yeah. I don't think I blamed you at all. I don't think I was upset. Well, thanks a lot.
Yeah. I mean, I knew. I mean, there was a point. I mean, for me at that time, it was, can I too? You know, I thought at first I thought, well, then we're both going to because clearly I can't go on. Without him. So surely I'll be able to. And then they started talking about, well, if you stay on, you can actually make some good money. Right, exactly. And I kind of went, oh, okay. Fuck him. Come on, David.
But also to the later point was it was never clear to me that there was a desire for the new series to be multiple seasons. It wasn't until I... We were, I think we did like a, we were promoting it or we were somewhere and we were sitting on chairs and somebody asked and I said, oh, no, no, no, this is all I'm.
This is all I'm doing after this. And it was the first time that I got the sense of like, oh, am I the only one that thinks that? Everybody else seems really disappointed that I've just declared that. For me, it was always just like I didn't even address it. I don't even address it. It's like, okay, we're doing this and then we're doing that. That's just the stupid way I go through life anyway. So it felt a little bit like, okay.
Done with you guys. And I know that's not what you meant rationally. I knew that. The end was problematic, though. I mean, it was problematic storyline-wise, particularly for Scully. And I wasn't really enjoying the direction that it was heading. It didn't feel, and yet there was, you know, I didn't have a voice in it.
And so I was—as much as anything, I felt like I needed to move on to something where I might have more of a voice. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I understand that. I mean, for me, I never knew— If we're being honest about like where the story goes, you know, it was originally like you getting pregnant that actually opened it up into realms that I don't think.
Chris ever thought it was going to go. In a way, that kind of serendipity, wrong word. But you having to disappear for a very short time, but you did have to disappear. kind of opened up this whole mythology thing that we eventually got into. So I never knew where that was going anyway. I mean, I wasn't part of that planning either. I think... I mean, my point of view, and you can have your judgment of it as yours. I was just like, well...
What else can happen? I could get pregnant, I guess, on this show. Or Jillian can get pregnant, or one of us can die. We're kind of backs against the wall. We've done everything else. I didn't know... So it didn't affect me in the same way. It didn't offend me in the way I feel like you were offended, if you know what I mean. Yeah. I think offended might be too strong a term. It was more... It felt like Scully's trajectory was no longer one of strength and agency.
It felt like it was beholden to an old idea of what a woman is. And that's all she could talk about. Literally all she could talk about was... William. That's literally like a one-track song. It's interesting to me that you felt trapped there because I always embraced... You know, because Mulder was not traditionally masculine, so I always felt kind of free in that area.
And there were some times during the run of the show where I wanted to be more masculine because I was like, hey, I want people to see me as like an action hero here. Like, why the fuck am I losing my gun all the time? Why the fuck is Scully saving me every fucking week?
I totally get it. And I think I would have said that to the writer sometimes. Like, hey, let me win a fist fight. Can I win one fist fight? So I get that. Yeah. I mean, one of the things that's come up so much in... talking around the drinks brand and talking around the wider conversation is...
You know, there's with the drinks, there is a, you know, its own Instagram feed and et cetera. And my team, my G-Spot team is constantly trying to populate it with stuff. I can't believe you just said my G-Spot team. I think we should all have a G-Spot. I feel very comfortable saying that. I'm not comfortable hearing it, but go ahead. Actually, do you have more of the drink? I don't. It's good because why? I don't know if it's making me horny, but it is making me want to pollinate a flower.
That was a tiny bit of butterfly pee. That butterfly pee. You know, when they would populate the Instagram feed with stuff. So every once in a while, it's mostly not related. It's to do with the drinks and the ingredients and just that and the other. But then every once in a while, there's a pic of me or there's something. And at one point, they...
they were curious about the whole Scully effect thing. And I found my brain going, you know, that's old news. Like, who cares? Like, you know, I've heard about that for so long. And then I suddenly realized for most of whether it's talking about the Scalia effect or whether it's talking about pay equity or whether it's talking about coming back to work after.
You know, 10 days after a C-section or any of the things that for so long press has wanted me to continue to talk about that I've said, I don't want to talk about that. Like I've not enough already. OK. All of a sudden I started to realize. It's actually still a thing. These are still things. Sure. The fact that a character, a particular kind of character, might have such an impact on particularly young...
women going into having an interest suddenly in STEM and that they are still being impacted by that. And it's still a thing. Rather than running away from it, why don't I run? towards it and actually welcome that conversation. And so therefore, in welcoming those conversations, and instead of, you know, saying, you know, yes, I've fought for pay equity back then.
wanting to leave it in my past, really for the first time agreeing to engage in the conversation. And I think there are certain things around... women's empowerment around the topic of feminism around you know that i have engaged in instinctively and intuitively And almost had like a knee-jerk reaction to in terms of self-preservation. But I've never qualified it before. And part of what these conversations are asking of me is almost...
where I stand in all of that in a way that I have not wanted to embrace or put my head above the parapet necessarily. And I feel like in the process of talking about... empowering other women. It's empowering me too. I feel like it's making me feel stronger in my voice. that I might actually have a little something to say based on experience, but also based on what I'm suddenly realizing I actually feel is really important. And I've shied away from so much of that for so long.
Well, I think also you, I mean, what I'm hearing, and if you're like me, it's like, what the fuck does that do with what I do? You know, it's like, I'm an actor. I want to think about that. That's what I love to do. It's tough for me to navigate that, but I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate that. That whole pay equity thing, you know, that's in our past as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was part of that, you know. You were. Yeah.
It kind of gets – yeah, I think we should like maybe go into this area. Selfishly back then I thought I was like being attacked, you know, when I thought – You know, like, oh, I'm being attacked for being offered more money when, in fact, behind the scenes, I think, you know, I was like eventually favored nations and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But attacked by who? The world. Oh, really?
Yeah. That they blamed you in some way? In a way, yeah. Oh, really? I didn't know that. Yeah. I'm sorry. No. No, but it's probably just me. But that's interesting that I wasn't paying attention to that side of it. Well, I didn't make you pay attention to it. And that kind of gets into. You brought it back to the way we're raised and childhood and these kind of situations that arise in our lives to make us confront lack.
You know, if we can extend to one another the grace of, you know, children trying to figure it out, then I think we can reach more forgiveness and more understanding. Not to excuse bad behavior. but to try to understand it, I think, sometimes. And I wanted to learn a little bit about your childhood, you know, and whatever you want to share, you know, and that...
Because I feel like the standards of success and failure are set early. I'm a little kid. I have an idea of what a success is and what a failure is. And those are hard to shake. You know, like for me, it would have been athletics. You know, so I got my failure out of the way early. So it's like everything else is like, oh, well, it's second best, whatever. Yeah. You know, and I wonder what.
You know, you growing up, what was the dream? What was the wake up of like, life is harder than I thought it was going to be? Yeah. I mean, when I was growing up in the UK... We lived in, you know, apartments and apartment buildings and with, you know, an outdoor loo. And I think my parents were always... For a long time, really, really struggling financially. And then we moved to the States when I was 11 because my dad...
Had a job offer and he was going to chase the American dream of potentially getting rich quick. Your dad is English? No, he's American. Yeah, so we moved to London so we could go to London film school. So he could go on. Yeah. So they were very young parents. Yeah, so they were, I think my mom was 26 when she had me. Yeah. They were just out of college. We were in Chicago. My dad was going to university. My mom was a social worker.
And when I was six months old, he decided he wanted to go to film school. And he said to my mom, do you want to go to California or London? And she said London. And so... We then moved to Puerto Rico for about 15 months because my grandparents were living there. My parents wanted to save money so that we could afford to move to London. And so we moved in with grandparents in Puerto Rico for about 15 months and then we moved to the UK. And so, you know, my childhood, you know, it felt...
You know, very much low-income household. And moving to the States was meant to be – my dad went ahead for a year. He traveled to the States to kind of set up base. That's in Michigan? Yeah, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Found a condominium for us to move into. And we were always going to move back to the UK. It was going to be temporary.
You know, my family went through a similar thing. Oh, really? Yeah. My mother's Scottish, was Scottish, and the plan was always to move to London, actually. Oh, really? And they got divorced instead of moving. Oh, wow. How old were you? I was 11. Oh, interesting. I really didn't want to move to London because I didn't play soccer and they didn't play basketball and baseball. That shows you what my world was.
terrified that I was going to have to. Oh, wow. Yeah. So they got divorced instead, which is even scarier than having to play soccer. Yeah. So we moved to Grand Rapids. I think there were a lot of hopes and dreams about what that was going to be like. Did that feel like a dislocation to you at that age? Do you remember that? I remember being excited by it and then...
The scales fell. And I, you know, I think I struggled more than my parents perhaps knew. Went through a very, you know, some really difficult. And then found the punk rock scene. And there was something in that that... answered something for me that fed something for me that appealed to the angst that was building up inside me and my feeling of being an outsider and displaced. And I think I had quite a fair amount of anger.
But then when I found acting and theater initially, that definitely opened up something in me and I felt like all of a sudden there was something I could do and I had purpose. But one... early area of failure for me, which is interesting, which is that when I went to university, I went to the Goodman Theatre School. It's a four-year program.
I think they initially invited about 40 kids, and then by the fourth year, it's down to 20. You have to be invited back every year. But the plays that I was cast in during those four years... were only the ones that took place in the classrooms. They were never on the main stages. So for me, that whole period of time felt like perpetual failure. That I wasn't, you know, the girl that was my closest friend, Krista Strutz. That's a name. Kept getting cast and was cast as the lead.
misanthrope and the lead and this and the big, you know, and I was always stuck in the classrooms doing shows. And obviously the irony. is that I went on to have an acting career, and that has continued. What was your conception of acting at that point? What was your method as opposed to how you work now, how you taught yourself? later on through work? You know, when you're in acting school, you...
You're encouraged to think about the voice and think about the movement and think about all the aspects of the tool that is you being honed. And I guess... To a certain degree, I still rely on some of those things that I learned back then just in terms of being interested in— of immersing myself in all of those aspects. And so I think I probably use, I don't think it's much different than it was back then. I think I start earlier. I try and start as early as possible.
I know for myself, at least with something like Thatcher, I was terrified, absolutely terrified of that. I knew that I was going to start at the earliest possible moment to give myself a chance. Yeah, I remember you telling me about that in the makeup trailer when we were working on whatever reboot it was. No, really? Yeah. Oh, shit. Get to work on that early. Yeah. And what about you? Is there anything?
Have I learned anything? Did you go to a formal theater school? No, not a school, but I took classes. I guess with... The first class was with a woman named Marsha Halfrecht, and she was Strasburg technique, which is known as the method. And then I also took with a guy named Robert Modica, who taught Meisner technique. I love Meisner.
That's probably the one that I respond to the most, yeah. Yeah, so they were both very different. And, I mean, for me, it's really having... having enough options on the day whatever's working you know it's like it's that's the exciting part about it to me it's like i'm not i'm not exactly sure that this is going to work today so but
You know, having gone through it enough times, I know that I have other options to try out, you know. As I get older with it, you know, it all just comes back down to relaxation, you know, and just allowing. Relaxation and also failure, obviously. The willingness to fail in the moment. At first, when we started, I would have been mortified.
to fail you know in front of the crew which is weird because it's you know it's not even it's just a thing that's happening here with cameras looking at it you know it's like that's not the performance but um it really was for me getting to a point where, you know, I'm just going to do, try some things out and, you know, give me a little time, you know, to figure it out.
So it's just been relaxation into that, you know, not being ashamed, you know, not being ashamed of failing in the moment. But it's lifelong stuff, you know, because shame just doesn't go away because you want it to. And where do you feel like you're, where does shame show up for you at this stage? That's all the time we have. Shame all the time. I mean, I'm a shameful person. I mean— Would you say that that's—
Been handed down to you? Sure, sure. From Adam and Eve all the way down. And I think, you know, I have parenting shame. I have... sexual shame I have social shame you know but you know I work on it and I try and I guess I have podcast shame now too you know to add to the mix but it's like I actually do know that my heart's in a good place and that I can come back to, you know. And I do know that what other people think of me is none of my business and that I constantly have to come back to.
I think that's one of the most important lessons of life. Yeah, and you and I went through a rupture of having a lot of people think about us. and had to figure out how to live within that. And even like something stupid, like I don't know if you remember when we left Vancouver, you know, I went through a whole, the city hated me for the final year.
And it's a joke, right? It's something to laugh at. But I got to tell you, that really hurt. I bet. You know, so there's been a couple, you know, and like having to make an announcement that I was in rehab for sex addiction because I was forced to. by somebody outing me, not anonymously. Right. It wasn't something that I would have announced. You mean somebody within the group? Yeah. So...
Those two, I mean, as stupid as the Vancouver thing is, it's silly because it's about the weather, actually. What could be more neutral than the weather? But I felt... Like I've been rejected by a city, and then, you know, the sex thing, there's all that shame. Yeah, yeah. So there had been two, like...
epic moments in my life where I felt like severe shame, severe shame as an adult. I don't know, as a kid, you know, those are all gone from me. I don't remember. I'm sure they exist on some plane. But those were hard. And how do you work through that? I don't know. I don't know. Just time. Therapy?
What are you saying? What exactly are you saying? I'm just wondering whether— Yeah, I've had therapy. I mean, I do therapy. And has that helped? I think talking helps. Yeah. For the reasons that you said. You know, for the reasons of, well, no, you had an opposite reaction back in the day. But for me, if I, because I'm catastrophizing in my head a lot. Catastrophizing? Catastrophizing. Thank you.
So to actually get it out there and for somebody to say, that is nuts. Or, oh, I get that, but that's probably not going to happen. And if it did, you'd deal with it. I just have a very kind of worrying brain. How about you? Which aspect? I don't know. I just want to stop talking about myself. I don't really care. I just want to shut the fuck up. I don't think I worry. I mean, one of the things that— Working for nine hard years on a series, you learn more systems about how to...
deal with certain things. And, you know, I'm particularly good at compartmentalizing and particularly good at saying, I'm not going to think about that today. That's actually making me uncomfortable. I know I need to deal with it, but I'm going to think about that on Tuesday, which is, I guess, part of compartmentalizing. But so I'm not really a worrier. I think I do have...
I do have shame, but I'm pretty good at not letting it impact my thoughts. And I have no doubt that part of that is because... I'm a workaholic and I don't give myself time or space to think about the things that I might be shameful about. I think that's probably one of the biggest areas of avoidance and concern is just the degree to which I work. I'm always working.
And so I think if I worked less, I'd be able to speak to my shame a lot more clearly. Well, it's a good reason to want to continue working. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I like that, you know. But I'm not sure it's healthy. I'm pretty sure it's not healthy. But, you know, it's like it works. You know, it's better than the alternative. Yeah, yeah. Feeling. I'm feeling. But, I mean, work obviously gives you something that you have to continue getting. And there's nothing wrong with that, you know.
Tell me about yourself as a parent because I realize that I don't actually know you as a parent, really. Oh, yeah. Very, very worried. I worry, you know. I worry about my kids all the time still, and they're pretty much adults now. But what I came to realize recently, and partly talking about failure so much on this thing, is I... It was so difficult for me to watch my kids fail at anything. And I wanted to protect them from any kind of pain. And then I realized at some point...
That's the best thing that could happen to them. That's how you live. And we're all going to fail more than we succeed. And one has to learn. how to fail. But it's still hard. I still want to protect them. And it's probably the worst thing I could do. When they were young, I was very aware of them being, you know, raised by a famous person. And I really was...
I would go out of my way to make them know that I was miserable, you know? Because I was like, not miserable, but it's like, you know, they have this image. When they go to school, it gets, oh, yeah, your family, whatever, you know, is like that. So your life is like that. And I just remember saying to my son, you know, I'm never happy. You know, I'm always trying new things. It's never like, however it looks from the outside, like, let's just me and you know.
You're not competing with that. That's bullshit. It's just a life, and it's a life that has ups and downs, just like any other life. Did that work? No, I don't think so. Because what you say doesn't matter, you know. They have to go through it themselves, you know. How about you? I mean, I... I'm very close to my kids. It's my happiest time, I think, when I'm with them. I really, really enjoy being a mother. And at the same time, I'm often...
Not around because I work a lot. I find that hard. And yet at the same time, it's part of my choice. You know, I could choose not to work. And so it's an ongoing. How old are the boys now? They are 18 and 16. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And are they in London? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but they travel around. And have very, very big full lives. And I find it so painful to observe them not getting what they want. Sure, yeah. Yeah. You can't control anything. No. No.
Hey, I just wanted to mention that if you're enjoying this interview so far, there's even more of our conversation available for Lemonada Premium subscribers. Jillian and I talked for so long that not all of it could make it into the episode. which makes sense. We had a lot to talk about. When we come back, we'll chat about her recent book, Want, her collection of anonymous letters from hundreds of women on sex and desire, and how that came to be.
Not how Sex and Desire came to be, but how her book Want came to be. With Lemonada Premium, we go into much more detail on this book and the ideas it explores, her beverage line, and the mission behind all the work. But you can only hear it by signing up for Lemonada Premium using the link in the show notes. We're back in just a minute. Struggling to make healthier choices or stick with your goals? You're not alone.
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The book Want. Yes. Fascinating to me. Fascinating that you would curate this book. Do you want to explain what it is exactly? Yeah. You can explain it better than me. And then if you could tell me what it is that you wanted from the book. What effect did you want? You set out with this vision. Yeah. Okay, I want something. Yeah. Something like My Secret Garden in a way, but updated. Yeah. And then it became something else. Yeah.
And now it's out there in the world and something else. So there's like three stages of it I guess I'm asking about. Well, the first stage was me being asked whether it would be something I was interested in, which I was. Immediately understood why it would be interesting to do in terms of recreating a collection of anonymous. sexual fantasies from women around the world. I mean, I did this series for a Netflix called Sex Education and I had my...
The dialogue on my socials has been, you know, very penis and yoni oriented. And also the drink that I had already launched, which is as much as anything about. Inclusion, diversity, acceptance, showing, you know, the branding around the drink, as much as anything, is about asking yourself internally what it is that... You feel comfortable with what feels good to you. And, you know, I feel like I have a tendency to be quite open handed and accepting of.
I think that's from what I've seen of you over 75 years. That's true. Well, you know, this interests me.
I mean, I don't know, but I don't remember I did Red Shoe Diaries a long time ago. It was actually like, it was like, but it was a guy asking for letters. It was actually, you know, send me your... stuff that you couldn't tell your shrink oh right and so i'm like oh my god this is like nostalgic for me as as and but also that's just a personal aside what i what i love about this just as a human being
Both of what you're talking about with the drink and with the book is you seem to be on a mission to kind of lessen shame. And that is really what this podcast has been about from the beginning. Forget about sexual shame. That's a whole other kettle of fish, right? It's hard to unpack that. It's all hard to unpack, but shame around failure. And, of course, those two can.
can go back and forth. So for me, you know, in my life, in the world that I see from my kids, in the world that I see on social media that you're referencing because there are these impossible standards. Shame is a killer. And I see, I feel like you're very kind of fluent in social media stuff, whereas I'm hopelessly kind of... distrustful of it to like a self-sabotaging kind of point. And I'd just like you to maybe explain or talk to me about how
How you navigate your own existence on social media because, I mean, you very literally said this is a brand or whatever. Yeah, yeah. So you have to be in that world. Yeah, yeah. You're a private person. Yeah. You're not somebody that shares – over shares with the world. So there's a dichotomy here. And it's one that I can't do. Maybe it's shame. I don't know. But I –
But yeah, I mean, enlighten me. I mean, the only reason why I have a more active relationship with it is because of the drinks brand and now with the book. But... You know, at the very beginning, I said, just as long as it's not about me. I don't want the drink to be about me. Yes, maybe at the very beginning when I need to sell it, you know, it can be I'll do a video or something. But then I had this. That sounds like me. I had this.
you know, false imagining that I'd be able to launch a drink without being front and center. And had I been told at the very beginning, oh, no, no, no. But you have to. I mean, that's the only way to do it is you have to be front and center. I would have said forget about it. The fact that it's kind of crept up on me and happened over time as I've started to build the brand and people are really enjoying it and we've expanded now into the States and I want it to be successful.
I'm now more present in the process of trying to tell people about it. But it's really shifted my relationship with various forms of social media. Firstly, I don't have it on my phone.
I don't do it myself. There's a girl that I've been working with for a decade maybe who... does it for me we have a great relationship and she says there's this new trend that's going around if you could do this for me i will you know and sometimes i say fuck off and sometimes i say okay that's i i can do that today i can do that or or maybe when i'm in the
This week I'll do it for you or something like that. So we have – I hold it lightly. I also don't share anything about my kids or my personal life. None of that shows up. I don't take pictures of my day, my food, my – you know, it's very – hands you know at arm's length and so that's how I kind of make sense of it and how it feels like it works for me where it's over there and yet here at the same time. Do you feel like that?
person on social media is a character that you're playing? I mean, early on, there were a couple videos that we did for the drink that I thought, I am just a performing monkey. That is literally, you know, and I didn't like that so much. But then as it's grown and as we've, you know, I feel like. I do less. I don't know. I'm very sensitive to it. There's a lot that I won't do. Well, I think what saves you is the fact that you actually believe in the drink itself.
The drink. But also, as you say, the brand is something else also that you believe in. So these things are kind of sacrifices or adjustments that you have to make in order to live in today's marketplace. I'm always told, you know, David, you can't just like— go out there when you've got a project you know it looks bad you've got to maintain you know a relationship that's not just using that as like an advertising platform and i'm like
I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to open myself up to that kind of relationship. And I get to this place where I'm like, well, fuck it. You know, either it's going to do well or it's not. I don't want to say anything about it, you know. And that's kind of. How I started, when I started doing talk shows and stuff, I was like, I don't want to do it. Let the movie do what it's going to do. But you can't really do that. It doesn't really work.
I wish you could. But I also know that, I mean, I feel, particularly since talking about the book, but also with the drink, there's an element of it where I feel like I'm being of service. And so that makes it feel more... worthy somehow or authentic because I really believe in the messaging that's behind it. And I've never thought, I mean, when I first...
started to use the word brand or to talk to people about brand, I mean, I literally couldn't even say the word because it just felt so pretentious. And it's gotten easier. But it's gotten easier, I think, because it feels like there's... purpose to it it doesn't feel like it's a frivolous thing it feels like we are we're actually
particularly with the book, you know, we're properly building a community and the community and the conversations that I've been having both with women who are reading the book, who are responding to it, but also to women journalists who have been having a fantastic... dialogue with around it has been really eye-opening and profound at times and moving and it's starting these bigger questions for women in the process of reading.
It's becoming less about fantasy necessarily and more about desire in life, you know. Yeah. Desire in relationship, desire in friendship, desire in one's workplace. It's interesting. When you're talking about this, I flash back to... the episode of The X-Files that you wrote and directed, because that was kind of Eastern philosophy inflected. And, you know, everybody's kind of...
baseline understanding of Eastern philosophy or Buddhism is cessation of want. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that... You're on both sides of the issue. And I see not a struggle in a bad way, but I see your engagement with this conception of want on both sides, calling you back many, many years ago. I wonder if that's a fair kind of perception. No, that is interesting just in terms of not reaching, not yearning in Buddhism, not of being— satisfied with where you are. And that does seem...
that it's at odds with desire. I'm not saying at odds. I'm just saying a different point of the spectrum. You know, there's a way to get to cessation of desire through desire, and there's a way to get to cessation of desire through meditation.
or whatever yeah but it's a time it feels like it's a time it feels like it's a time for action I mean this particular moment it's a good moment for the book to be out but it's Definitely a time for voices to be raised and particularly women to raise their voices about what it is that they want for themselves and what they want. don't want to be told that they should want for themselves or told what they shouldn't shouldn't do shouldn't shouldn't say yeah and so in that sense it feels
and like a powerful conversation to be having at this minute. I hear that. Yeah. I understand what you're saying. What else? Are we done? Are we up? I think we're done. Yeah. I don't have anything else. I got how we met. Yeah. But that's an old story, right? The girl who runs my socials wants us to comment on... Has she been listening? No. But she wants us to comment on what the fuck was going on in that 90s picture. Do you remember that? I have no idea, but we don't look happy. No, we don't.
You know, that could be any moment. It's like in between faces, you know? I look... A face in between another face? Yes. That's not even an expression. That's in between. Is that somebody else's expression? Yes, that's in between expressions. And then there's that picture, which apparently people want to know about. But that's Clyde. That's my first husband sitting down there. So it can't be that.
Oh, I think, you know what I bet that is? I bet that's probably the wrap party for the first year. Yeah, and a proper goodbye. Yeah. That's plus strangulation at the same time. Oh, no, that's just like, hey, we did it. You know? And then there's that. Do you remember that? No. It looks like I don't have any trousers or anything on and I'm on your shoulders. It's a candid shot. It's just one of those moments on set, candid. They said, smile.
Whose idea was that? I don't know. I think it was Entertainment Weekly or something, wasn't it? It was some clever photographer saying, hey. Well, you know, but it's the same thing. It's like we did so many pictures together and it was like, hey, you know, why don't you lift? her up why doesn't she lift you up why don't you you know it's like you run out of shit to do yeah um but no i don't remember that one i do actually i think the one picture i have of us up
On the wall is the one where I had the dress on. I love that picture. Yeah. And I'm holding you up. Exactly. Yeah. I love that picture. Yeah. I'm pretty sure none of this will be in the podcast. Thank you, Jillian. Thank you, David. It was a real pleasure. And let's continue to talk. That would be nice. I would like that. I would like that, too. And talk without microphones around. I think that's probably a good idea, too, at some point. You know how to find me. I do?
Just trying to get some thoughts down after having a very emotional, I felt, and satisfying discussion with Jillian Anderson a couple days ago. Coming out off of my podcast with Jason McGay and now with Jillian, these are two people that I have long histories with, personal, personal histories, going back 30 years in Jillian's case now. Is that right?
Yeah, almost 30 years. So I got a real bee in my bonnet about performative friendship, you know, where I see, call me an old fuddy-duddy, go ahead. But I see folks on... instagram or whatever displaying their friendship it's very it's very especially celebrity friendship displaying celebrity friendship in these two cases with with jillian and with jason a couple weeks ago
I'm watching myself. I don't want to perform this friendship because the friendship is what's important, not the performance of the friendship. But there I am.
you know asking her on the podcast i guess i'm guilty a little bit but i wanted to handle it in a way that wasn't performative and i thought going into that it would be we get into it you know it's The failure, my failure, and I can only speak for myself, my failure of, you know, I guess being number one on the call sheet and not making sure everybody was okay, everybody in this case being her.
you know going going not not being as good of a team player not getting as good of a human being as i know that i can and should be um especially knowing what i knew she must have been going through because i was going through something similar with the explosion of that show so aside from being i think an interesting thing to talk about It's very, not therapeutic, but it's nice for me to be able to say, I'm sorry, or I regret, or I could have done better.
Because once that's out, all that's left is gratitude. And that's the best place to be. So whether or not, I mean, I know that I did the best that I could, whether or not that was good enough. We'll never know. But it's a lot to dance around, you know, without getting into specifics, right? But I think that we managed to do that. We managed to... kind of cop to our part in a dysfunctional relationship that we had as coworkers, you know, back in the day.
There's more fail better with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. And a reminder, we've got bonus bonus content this week. That's double bonus. Even more, not only can you hear the full extended version of my behind-the-scenes thoughts after speaking with Jillian, but you can also hear even more of the interview, including more about her book, Want.
and her G-Spot sodas. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts by clicking the link in the show notes. Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Bracci, Donnie Matias, and Paula Kaplan. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of Weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of New Content is Rachel Neal.
Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski, and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis Rowan, and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada Media, and you can find me... at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime membership.
Hi, everyone. Gloria Riviera here, and we are back for another season of No One is Coming to Save Us, a podcast about America's childcare crisis. This season, we're delving deep into five critical issues facing our country through the lens of childcare, poverty, mental health, housing, climate change, and the public school system.
By exploring these connections, we aim to highlight that child care is not an isolated issue, but one that influences all facets of American life. Season four of No One Is Coming To Save Us is out now wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Leisha Haley. And I'm Kate Mannig. 20 years ago, we met playing best friends on the set of the TV show, The L Word, which quickly morphed into us being actual best friends for the rest of our lives.
Truly, it feels like we're an old married couple, but with fewer cats, although we each have a number of cats in our lives. And we're pretty much inseparable and have more or less zero boundaries. Hence why we named our podcast Pants because at this point you can't have one leg without the other.
And each week we catch up with each other on the big and small things going on in our lives, which then leads to much oversharing and little left to the imagination, whether it's sex or therapy or money fears. Literally nothing is off the table in terms of discussion topics. Oh, and we also like to talk about that wild ride that was the L word. You know, the genesis of our friendship. And Pants is out now, wherever you get your podcasts from Lemonada Media.