BBC Sounds. Music, radio, podcasts. So after two races, Norris and Piastri have a win each at McLaren. Lewis Hamilton has a sprint victory to his name with Ferrari and also a disqualification. And there's been a big driver swap already at Red Bull. 2025 F1 season. And now we prepare for the first race in a triple header. The circus rolls on to Japan and we'll look ahead to it all on Five Live Formula One.
I'm Eleanor Aldroyd and we have a packed show coming up. I'm joined by Five Live F1's Jenny Gao and former McLaren mechanic Mark Priestley. How are we feeling? Third race weekend, Mark? Excited because... is just in such a good place right now. So if this weekend in Japan is anything like the first two, I am here for it. And it's, I think it's something special. It's always special when we go to Suzuka, but...
This time of year, when the cherry blossom is out and it's Sakura, that's what they call it, F1 has never raced in Japan at this time of year. And they thought it would happen. Time and time ago, it didn't for all number of reasons. Finally, we've got there. We've got to racing in April. It's beautiful. All the pictures coming back from Japan, all of the drivers and media are out in Tokyo getting their pictures. And it's just...
so exciting and on the cusp of a really pivotal moment in F1, really. And what's it like to turn up with the team at Suzuka, Mark? What's it like as a place to work, a place to race? Oh, do you know, it's amazing.
It's actually such an iconic venue within Formula One. Traditionally, actually, it was the last race of the season for many years. So many championships have always been won there. So it's nice to come at a different time. But also, it's an amazing circuit. You know, it's got so much... history but the track itself is something that the drivers love the teams love the fans out there are just
on another level altogether. So, yeah, it's got something very special about it. It really pushes on an engineering sense, but also on a driving sense, everybody involved from a competitive sense. And when it comes to fans, there is nothing quite like it. I can't... impressed you how special it is. The sun rises and as the sun rises, it's silent. But then you just get this sense of people.
The sunrise and the grand sands are just packed, but they're all so respectful. They don't really do anything until the sun comes up and drivers come out and they wave and then they wave back and it's a frenzy. But the fan experience is unlike anything I've ever seen. And I was... they're getting from the train station. And someone ran up to me going, Diddy girl, Diddy girl! I was like, who is that? I don't know anyone here. In Yokiichi, which is a very small town near Suzuka.
And this lady came over to me and she'd made me cookies. And she just presented me with this beautiful set of cookies. I didn't know her. I'd never met her before. And that's just me. So the drivers get such a special... And it's something very different from anywhere else we go. Well, there's going to be a very special treatment this weekend, you'd have thought, for the man at the moment. He's been at the heart of so much drama this week. Yuki Zunoda, the man really...
the key protagonist in Red Bull's latest driver swap. We'll hear an exclusive sit-down chat with him shortly. I will also hear from Jaime Alguswari, whose experience of being part of the Red Bull driver programme and the ex-Haas team principal. Gunter Steiner. And we'll get the thoughts of some of the other drivers looking ahead to this weekend, including Lando Norris and Lewis Hamilton. Jenny, every time I come on this podcast, I always seem to ask the question, what on earth is happening at...
And it's not always for the same reason. And this is a whole different way that they have managed to make us talk about them. So what's been going on with Yuki Tsunoda and Liam Lawson? So if you go back to the end of last season, both tested out for Red Bull and... It seemed like Liam Lawson, who only had 11 races under his pocket, he was the one that they chose. And they turned down Yuki Tsunoda and sent him backpacking to the current team, which is Racing Bulls.
That's how it started. Liam Lawson has not qualified well. He hasn't got the results. And it looks like Yuki Tsunoda has done well. And all of a sudden, after these two races... Red Bull have decided to make the switch. Liam Lawson is back at racing balls. And Yuki Tsunoda finally, just in time for his home race, gets to drive that Red Bull.
Well, let's hear from the Japanese driver who sat down for an exclusive chat with Harry Benjamin and started by explaining exactly how the swap came about. First call I got was from Christian and I got also, I did beating. also in person was planned to go to Milton Keynes anyway for RB car simulator and I heard expectations from him, what expecting from myself and also what kind of team dynamics they're having. Basically, he said welcome club racing and it was exciting.
So what were those expectations that Christian Horner said to you? Well, be close as much as possible to Max. You know, in the end, Rebel Racing focused Max to... score a driving championship, you know, I mean, he proves himself enough to, you know, be a good potential to be real champion, even though Red Bull seems a little bit struggling now, but, you know, I'm sure they will.
develop the car as much as possible this year and will be better end of the season and also in that process he wanted to help me to uh develop the car you know i think he also mentioned the feedback i was giving to the team last in abu dhabi tests was really really good so you want me to continue that but at the same time yeah
as a performance he want me to be close to max as possible so in order to you know maybe some race i can help him for the strategy but also he promised me that you know it's some situation if i able to be ahead of Max, he wouldn't necessarily ask me to swap the position and, you know, let the team Max win. So, I mean, I think it's very fair.
I'm sure it won't be easy anyway to, you know, straight away, you know, beat Max, you know, like, um, also I just have to get used to the car. So, uh, yeah, but still I'm very excited. Is there a part of you, you mentioned that test that you did with Red Bull at the end of last year. Is there a part of you that is a little bit frustrated that the call came now rather than at the end of last year? I think I passed that phase already, you know.
The thing is, I was very, very anyway motivated to Japan. So yeah, when I got caught, to be honest, you know, probably I was not that super, super excited that probably people imagine, you know. I was always happy, but at the same time, like immediately I imagined the amount of pressure I'm going to have and amount of challenge you're going to have. So yeah, it's kind of mixed feeling, but overall, obviously even that challenging and pressure.
you want to get experience much kind of the situation ever, you know, probably once or twice in life. So overall, I'm just super excited. Yeah, I mean, that does seem like the overriding feeling we're getting. I mean, there's so much expectation, so much pressure. How tough is it going to be?
this weekend because we know the red bull car obviously first of all it's a different car to what you've been driving and what you're used to it looks like it's a harder car to drive and we hear all this talk about trying to find the right window and how sensitive it is on the front end
How tough is it going to be to adapt to this new car? I think anyway, getting into the new car is not easy, you know, with any car. But at the same time, to be completely honest, like... I drove already in simulator and I think simulator corralled quite well and it's quite close enough to feel the car and in the simulator at least didn't feel huge struggle or you know
uh trickiness that uh other drivers was mentioning obviously i at the same time i felt kind of i get it what the max for example saying in terms of sensitivity and the you know, strong front end, especially tying a set up from him was pretty, pretty impressive amount of rotation in the strong front end I had. But at the same time, I used to, I used to love oversteer.
You know, I used to love front end and junior categories, I was asking all the time, you know, obviously, obviously, more front end, front end. So actually, you know, once I stepped into Formula One car and...
Probably that you know racing bulls car historically is more like quite stable car a bit more you have limitation for towards understair rather than overstair so I got used to it with that card more than over sterica so actually i'm quite unknown that you know if i able to have a confidence that i used to have in junior categories i have pretty good confidence that i can adapt well but
you know it's been a while that I'm gonna drive like kind of that car so it's a bit you know unknown like I said but overall I know the direction I want to have you know in terms of car setup and it still works quite well. when I tried in simulator and I'm sure I was that direction more towards that. You mentioned some guy called Max. I think it's Max Verstappen. I think he's your teammate. He seems to be quite good, doesn't he?
How has he been able to give you any advice in the build up to this weekend? I don't think I ever get much probably advice or even I ask for myself. But yeah, he's definitely a nice guy and I'm looking forward to work with him. I think I mentioned in the past quite a while, but it's a bit different as how he behaves in the car and outside of the car.
So I'm not really worrying about the relationship we're going to have in both sides. But, yeah, you know, I know what I want to do and probably how he drives and how he... things to make the driver well, to make a step. I think it's a different approach as well. So I just got to do what I was doing in RB and start with that and just build the confidence step by step.
Absolutely. Now, we know this game is a brutal one. You mentioned, obviously, Formula One is full of politics. And I wonder, on the other side of things, have you been able to have a chat with Liam and Orson at all? Obviously, I know you two got on really well as teammates at Racing Bulls. going to be there you're doing the swap have you got a bit of sympathy for him as well i think for our relationship um i don't think as a hopefully as a friendship we won't make anything um
Ruined or you know get damaged. I think I felt it a little bit to be honest first off the season this year So we don't have friendship we used to have probably when we are fighting junior categories. But I think that's not true. I know we always fighting for the seed and you know everything.
I know he's a funny guy and I know how to make our relationship good. But just... Let's see how it goes. It's not easy. And I understand anything happened. Because, I mean... i was okay in the end this year start of this year i was already switched to uh rb mode racing boost mode to have success with the team i was not trying to really affect our relationship but yeah i mean
I understand both ways and I hope we still have a good relationship. On the track action, Yuki, come Sunday night, once the checkered flag has flown, what result are you going to be happy to leave Suzuka with? Good question. I never actually thought about what kind of result I want to finish in Suzuka.
You know, because obviously I want to say, I don't know, points, podium, whatever. But at the same time, realistically, if you think about jumping into the new car already in FB1 straight away with limited stations. You know, that's pretty tough. But I think what I can say for now is if I can score points, you know, top 10, I'll be happy. So it was great to hear from Yuki Tsunoda there, Mark. What an opportunity for him. I mean, in that seat, in the big car.
At his home track. Incredible. Yeah, it's a massive opportunity, you know, 100%. And it will be an amazing opportunity given where it is, like you say, in front of his home crowd. I talked earlier on about how passionate the fans are there. their passion for a Japanese driver will be at another level altogether. So that's wonderful. But it also throws in another level of pressure to be, you know, given this opportunity in front of your home fans, adds another level to it.
I think the challenge for Yuki here is that this is the big elephant in the room, isn't it? That second Red Bull seat. has almost been like a poison chalice over the years, right? So no one's successfully managed to occupy that seat since Daniel Ricciardo many, many years ago. Even then, you could argue he didn't successfully take that seat. Well, he never overturned Max Verstappen, did he? So you're right. So there's two things. Your teammate Max Verstappen is...
one of the greatest in a generation, if not the greatest. But secondly, that car seems like a very difficult car to drive. We heard Harry talking about it there in the interview. So the opportunity is wonderful, but the challenge is equal to that. of it's it's almost immeasurably hard as well so this is going to be a huge unknown and it could go either way because we've seen that many times getting rid of a driver after two races is almost unprecedented in this sport
Who knows how it will go for him, but he's got to try and grab the opportunity. And you have to think... When you talk about what's going wrong, what can Yuki Tsunoda bring to that seat now that will suddenly change it and change the dynamics and change the fortunes of Red Bull? Is this not just another... reactionary Red Bull decision that will just heap more pressure on the career of Tsunoda. Okay, he might be out at the end of this year anyway with the Honda contract going away.
another career potentially ruined. And you look back at all the drivers have had 23 drivers through the two teams, Red Bull and the Red Bull Racing Bulls. And they've just... ploughed through them all and 21 races have been won. by people who haven't been Vettel and Verstappen. That's hardly any, if you look at how many they've won, which is a massive amount. And it just seems like they go through drivers so quickly.
Why? What is the problem? And it points to a systemic problem inside that organisation, doesn't it? Because they've got that second team plus a whole category of younger drivers on a ladder towards Formula One. all designed to find the next Sebastian Vettel, the next Max Verstappen, and yet they've struggled to find that.
The huge problem they've got is their car has got some very specific requirements, and I think that's a factor of modern Formula One. The cars are very specific in the way you need to drive them anyway. The window of performance is very small. So your natural driving style as a driver, if it doesn't necessarily...
suit the car you've got a real challenge on your hands with max it clearly suits the red bull he's almost grown up with that through his almost his entire career but i think the other side of this is you've got to ask are they nurturing these drivers are they looking after the human
of what is a Formula One driver as well as the sort of the driving side of it. Absolutely. Well, let's get a couple of different views on this from the world of Formula One about how Red Bull have managed this. Firstly, former Haas boss, Gunter Steiner, who was... of the Red Bull team when it was first founded in the mid-2000s. He's been giving his thoughts to Harry Benjamin on the situation.
I think it is the right call. I think it's right for everyone. I think people say, how can you drop a driver after two races? He's not dropped. You know, the landing is pretty soft. You land in a racing ball. You know, you're not landing on the street. So I think now going back here, Red Bull would...
put Zunoda in from the beginning into the Red Bull. You know, that was a lot of people were saying, why you don't give Liam a year in the racing bull to build up his confidence, to get accustomed to Formula One and then put him in the Red Bull. But obviously, do that, but I think they took action because the performance wasn't there. I mean, and I think it's a good thing also for Yuki. Maybe we find the next big talent, you know, when you get in a very good car. So I think in the end, it's...
something very positive for everybody involved. What I'm quite interested though is obviously you have done your fair share of hiring and firing of drivers over the years. And this line about duty of care has come out for Liam Lawson going back to racing balls, because you're right, they could have just completely axed him and he'd gone into the periphery.
But also the same going the other way as well with Tsunoda sort of handling the carrot on a stick with the test at the end of last year. Then, no, sorry, not good enough. We're actually going to give it to the less experienced driver. Oh, now, no, we do want you back. From a management perspective. How would you have handled all that? And how do you view Helmut Marko and Christian Horner and the way they've dealt with the whole situation?
I would say how I would handle it, you know, to judge how they handle it, I don't know the politics internally, so it's always different to have an opinion on that one. But how I would have done it, I would have given Yuki the seat in the Red Bull. to see what he can do. He has got a year to show if he's good enough to stay there. Because I think, you know, with Honda going away, being a fourth engine next year, things will change politically.
If you think about it, you keep Yuki Tsunoda in the racing bull for four years. He must be good. Otherwise, he wouldn't be there, you know. So give him the big chance. And if it doesn't work, you know when… Single swim. Exactly, yeah.
The idea, though, of, because we've seen it time and time again, when you're sat in a room and when you're deciding on actually, no, we're going to replace Kevin Magnussen or actually, no, we want to hire Nika Hulkenberg, what are you... doing what's going through are you sat with a pen and paper doing a pros and cons list are you working out how's this going to fit with our sponsors just like to try and get into the mindset of how driver decisions the hirings and the firings are actually made
I think they are made over a period of time. You know, and I would say I've got, I had the advantage, I had only with one guy to deal with that, to decide what is going on. And, you know, commercially, I didn't have the problems because we didn't have any sponsors. to time.
So that was pretty easy to deal with. But you're right. There is a lot of elements which come in in big teams, how it is going. But I think at the end of it, the most important thing is the performance. What do you think can a change bring?
clear answer. But it's not like that you're sitting down one day and said, let's evaluate and make a decision. The decision comes over a period of time, over a period of talks, over thinking where these people are actually, because sometimes the drivers struggle themselves with where they are.
Obviously, the public will not get to know this. And sometimes you relieve them of pressure when you let them go. Because if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But there's never one situation like the other one. It's always a first.
when you need to do something like this, when you need to change drivers. Well, that was former Haas team principal and, of course, Drive to Survive star Gunter Steiner speaking with Harry Benjamin. So, I mean, Mark, basically he feels that they made the right decision eventually, but they just didn't do it. At the right time and in the right order.
And, you know, you can argue from a performance point of view, and Formula One's all about performance. Liam Lawson qualified last in his first two races of the team. You can't allow that to keep going. But on the flip side, two races is a very short sample set for someone to learn with very little preparation. And I think the bigger problem Red Bull have now is what happens if Liam goes back to RB racing balls.
And is quicker than Yuki at a Red Bull. If Yuki doesn't perform, where do they go next? They've run out of options. And there's every chance that will happen. Yeah. And this is the thing, isn't it, really? It's almost showing a lack of faith in Yuki Tsunoda from the start. They've said, OK, no, we didn't fancy you. We didn't fancy you at the end of last season, so therefore we put Liam in that seat. Oh, OK, no, we are going to bring you in. It's just inconsistent.
It's dithering to the most highest level. And a team like Red Bull, who have won the Constructors' Championship, who have repeatedly won the Drivers' Championship, they are not in a position, I don't think, as a company. let alone a sports team, to be in the spotlight and dithering as badly as they have. And yes, they've lost members of the team, high profile members of the team, but they can't, I mean, Christian Horner says we have to accept.
We were asking too much too soon. This is of Liam Lawson. And so this is for him, again, nurturing that talent. We know that he has back to racing bulls. They've admitted Dr. Helmut Marko. He never... admits he's made a mistake even he's admitted they made a mistake but I think I think it's irresponsible to
have your team making that mistake on the most public arena well yeah and also these guys that drive in these cars they're they're athletes of the highest caliber right so we know that athletes in any sport a large part of their performance
comes from the mental side, comes from confidence. So... They're not machines. I mean, they're driving machines. Exactly. In a machine-led sport, they're not machines. But if you come into this arena, which is very public, like you say, operating at the highest level and you're...
Confidence is shattered, which it will be for Yuki because he was overlooked and now he's a second option. That's not going to fill you with confidence. For Liam, who's had two races and now been effectively sacked or at least demoted.
That doesn't put him in a confident situation. Their driver programme is not doing what it needs to do, which is prepare the best drivers in the world to drive the best cars in the world and deliver world championships. Well, Max Verstappen, interestingly this week, there was this story. that he had liked.
A comment on social media describing Red Bull's decision to demote Liam Lawson as a panic move and close to bullying. I mean, those comments were made by a Dutch former Formula One driver, Guida van der Gaarde, who's a friend of the Verstappen family.
on Instagram. And Max Verstappen said today, I like the comment, the text. So I guess that speaks for itself, right? Let's hear from former driver Jaime Algaswari, who raced for Red Bull's junior team, then called Toro Rosso. 2009 but he was axed out of the blue at the end of the 2011 season he's got some pretty strong views on the decision to be a junior driver at red bull is quite special because you know you are always assuming that kind of
responsibility and pressure from above, from Helmut Marko and the board. The way they manage drivers is very specific, it's very peculiar. I would have never imagined they would swap Liam after... one race and a half i would say one race and a half because china is not a real race i mean they only did an fp one and then straight into qualifying so the poor guy couldn't even do the right testing
We are also heading into a very complicated Formula One because it's really, really tight. Everyone is very competitive. There's no big differences between cars. So as soon as you maybe... misunderstand the tires or just leave a little gap or little details here and there it's so easy to lose two three tenths and then it's very easy to you know to have three four cars in between plus you have Max Verstappen and as your teammate.
I think everything went really wrong for Liam and they should have gave him a little bit more time to judge his performance and his attitude. It's not fair. How does Liam... rebuild from this though? Because he looked destroyed after China. He sounded it on the radio as well. How as a driver can you begin to rebuild and cope? Not losing your confidence.
you know, just staying truthful to yourself. Red Bull has the ability to make you feel outside of your comfort zone, you know, to make you doubt about yourself. Because they have this mentality and education and philosophy of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. So they always push and press pressure on you.
And even for us in Toro Rosso, they asked me to win a race. Otherwise, it was not good enough. You have that feeling of not being good enough all the time for everyone, unless you are world champion. Liam should look inside him. He will develop himself in Formula One. I think he will perform much better and he will demonstrate himself and all of us. that he's capable of retaining his seat in Formula One.
Well, that was Jaime Alguswari, former F1 driver with Toro Rosso. Really interesting to hear from him speaking to Harry Benjamin. I mean, Jenny, what did you make of that? He's clearly been burnt by his experience. Oh, so badly. And you just listen to the pain in his voice and you look at where he's gone and where he's come from. And you understand how much these drivers and humans sacrifice to try and get to the pinnacle of motorsport, to get into F1. And then when you're in F1, to succeed.
And we worked with Jaime. He actually did your summer riser job for a year. And it pained him so thoroughly to be having to speak about his competitors, his rivals from a young age.
age that it just wasn't for him but he he's been burnt and a lot of those drivers going through that scheme have been burnt and I spoke to someone else in the scheme who's still slightly part of it So he couldn't tell me exactly what he thought, but made it quite clear that it's a scheme that is designed in a way to fail.
even though it's seen such success, because they just clear you out. If you're not good enough, they get rid of you. And maybe that's what it takes. I mean, Mark, the point that...
Jaime was saying was this attitude that Red Bull have which is what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and it's the debate you can have in coaching in any sport isn't it you know it's the carrot and stick approach you know it's the resilience it's coming back from setbacks I mean Liam Lawson is a young guy you know he's got plenty of time in his career potentially yeah and look if you if you look at the the upshot once all the dust has settled you might say Liam's ended up in
potentially a better situation for him in that he's in a car that he knows, that he knows suits his driving style much better. That car's delivered better results than the Red Bull racing car at times already this year. So he's not ended up in a bad place, as Gunther Steiner mentioned.
earlier on the cutthroat approach from red bull this whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger there's an element of truth to that as well this is the very pinnacle of motorsport and some people will be listening to this saying You're absolutely right. If you can't cut it, let someone else have a go. But surely two races isn't enough. And even one and a half races, really, it's not enough to get a true gauge of...
Was he good enough in a difficult car? Yeah, a very difficult car. And also, if you think about two races, which were a week apart, Australia and China, just a week apart.
They made the decision effectively just before Australia, right? It was the first race after making the decision of which driver was going to be in the Red Bull. Then we went to Australia. Seven days after that, they make the decision that they got it wrong and they switched them. It absolutely makes no sense because Formula... one's a data-driven industry.
That tiny sample set of data is just not enough. I'm really sorry. I've sat in garages. I look at data. I understand data. There's no way that's enough data to make a career-ending decision or a career-defining decision potentially like this one.
Well, Liam Lawson's going to be driving a racing bulls car this weekend. Here's what he had to say coming into the race. I think, obviously, an opportunity this weekend. And, yeah, maybe... something i wasn't expecting um so early but something that obviously is it's not my decision and um for me it's it's about making the most of obviously this opportunity now um and obviously still being in formula one i still have that so
Yeah, it's been a good week of preparations. So I'm excited to get going. Well, that was Liam Lawson. You mentioned Sergio Perez just now, Jenny. I mean, he started this whole saga because he was dropped from Red Bull at the end of last season. I mean, he could now be on course for a return to F1.
Oh, well, yes. He has said that he's meeting with lots of people and he's never going to get back into that seat. That's for sure. And where he goes, he's got plenty of money. Let's not forget it. But I'm not sure where his money... We'll take him next. And if you just look at the situation with Lawson and Tsunoda, they're talented, talented guys.
And they're still finding it hard to hold on to a seat. And Perez has had his time. And he's not dazzled. He's not, you know, he, in comparison to Verstappen. underperformed and they gave him lots of time and okay they didn't have another
person on the rank, but I don't understand. Is it partly because they gave him so much time that you think they've become so twitchy? Well, I think what Red Bull are looking for is another Max Verstappen. But is there another Max Verstappen out there? That's the problem, isn't it? Well, they have the perfect moment.
In about Monaco time last year, they could have signed Carlos Sainz, who was a Red Bull junior. He came up through the ranks, but they're nervous to put Carlos Sainz and his father and then Jose Verstappen in the... garage alongside Carlos Sainz's father with Max Verstappen. It was just a recipe for disaster. But should they at that point have made the decision that...
Let's go with Sainz. But the problem is, right, look at Carlos Sainz. I'd have put him in the top five drivers last year at Ferrari. He was absolutely, after making the decision that Ferrari were going to let him go, we saw the best of him. He's now at Williams, and all right, we're only two races in. You haven't got enough.
of a sample section of data to draw a conclusion. I haven't. But this is a bigger symptom of modern-day Formula One, where the cars are so specific in what they need out of them to get the best out of them. It's sometimes not just about finding the best driver. about finding the best driver for that car which is not always the same thing can i ask a question of you mark in that situation with lawson coming back to rb
How would you lift his head? Because this is such a hard break for him. And he's got to now, in front of all of us, get back into a car and try and perform. But he's into a car that he, first of all, knows. But more than that, he knows that he knows how to drive it. He knows that it will suit his driving style. I actually think he'll be sitting there quietly, disappointed, tail between the legs a little bit.
but also part of him thinking, actually, I'm not in a bad place here. I think he'll do well. Well, let's look ahead to the on-track action this weekend. Big question, can anyone get near McLaren? Well, that is the question, yeah. McLaren have had an unbelievable start.
to the season, which follows on really well pretty much from where they left off at the end of last season. They've been on this incredible journey, which actually is a journey over about 10 years of gradually building back towards the top after some disastrous cars turning out awoking.
They're in a really good place right now, and they've hit the ground running, which is something they've struggled to do for a lot of years running. It's always been Red Bull that have hit the ground in the best possible shape at the start of the year. McLaren have got a really good car. But it's what they call peaky. It's kind of twitchy. To get the best out of it requires some very specifics in terms of the track, the driving style, the setup.
You get that right, no one's getting anywhere near you, but it's just a tiny bit wrong, and the drivers are even struggling with that car. I'm excited to see this battle between Norris and Piastri as well developing over this season. I think, you know, they've each had a win now. And let's see what happens next. Because at this point in the season... you kind of feel like it is even Stevens. They'll treat both of the drivers fairly and respectfully and let them race. But actually...
Will one driver dominate the other? Will one driver get the lead on the other? And this is the next run of three races. Remember, this is the first of a triple header will be very important in that dynamic. Let's hear what Lando Norris has had to say coming into this weekend. It's been a very, very good start to the year. still not easy but you know to start with the best car and to start with a car as impressive as it is in such tough competition is a lot of credits to the team so
I've said it many times already, but always a big thanks to them. It makes my life a bit easier, that's for sure, but it's the job. We want the best car, we work hard to make the car as quick as possible, and that's what they're giving us as drivers. A good start, but yeah, always things to improve. Well, that was Lando and Aris. I mean, they are flying, aren't they, McLaren, your former team? One win each after the first two rounds. So where do team orders come in all of this?
You just said there, Jenny, I think, you know, are we going to see one driver dominate the other? I think that's what McLaren desperately need to happen. And the reason is because then they don't have to make a decision over favouring one over the other.
The last time McLaren were in a championship fight with their two drivers as the only guys really within a chance of winning the title was when I was there back in 2007. It was Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso. That didn't go well. Anyone who remembers that season, it didn't. It went disastrously. It was awful season. And this is a real genuine problem that McLaren haven't had to manage since then. That's a long time ago. A whole new set of management there.
What happens is when the one thing standing between you as a driver and the biggest prize on the planet in their world, when it's the only thing in the way is the other guy on the other side of the garage.
They move very quickly from your teammates to your arch enemy. And that's the one person you need to take down in any way you can because he's going to stop you getting there. It's a dream these guys have had since they've been kids. So McLaren have to manage that and they will have to manage it.
Obviously, it's early days in the season, and right now they're all best of friends, and it's all just lovely and rosy. They're sharing wins here and there. But if you think back to Mercedes, Lewis and Nico Rosberg, I remember that first race in Bahrain, whichever year it was. They were battling each other on track.
got out, they were hugging each other and joking. By the end of the year, they absolutely hated each other. And I think that dynamic is something that does shift throughout your time together with teammates. And we've seen already last year, they were trying to battle for firstly the drivers, then the championship. And they made a mess of it when it got to Hungary. I don't know if you remember Hungary, but it was...
Team orders had to come out and they had to let the other person pass. And it didn't happen to as they wanted it to. And I think that played out in a very public profile way. And since then, they've had a look at it. They've thought, no, we still. We'll stand by papaya rules, whatever papaya rules actually meant, because it's all coded. But then as it got further along in the season, it didn't resolve itself.
properly and we saw in Monza I think it was Oscar Piastri made that jump when Lando Norris was there he had pole position and all of a sudden Piastri found himself challenging and you just go hang on hold station and do what you're asked to do. Don't do anything rash. Don't cost Norris the winner. Almost did. I know, that's the whole thing. You have to ask the question. You have to set out the boundaries. As parents, we all know that. Set out the boundaries and you might be in with a chance.
It's exactly the same thing. You've got to be very clear on your instructions. Sometimes they're difficult because sometimes it's not what a driver wants to hear. A driver only really ever thinks about themselves in these situations because they want to win. And sometimes a team have to make difficult decisions. for the good of the team, which is often a different thing. Is it better to have two... I mean, well, first of all, are Oscar Piastri and Lando Norris equal?
In talent. Very similar. Very, very similar. Yeah, I think. And, you know, McLaren call them. both number one drivers. They don't have a number one and a number two, which has always been the way at McLaren. If you look back at Ferrari and the Schumacher years, it was a very definite number one. Even written into contracts, the second driver was a number two. Red Bull have got something similar. We all know it's...
centred around max but at mclaren it's very very open and fair which seems like a lovely way nice fair way to go racing until it becomes difficult and and then they've got some tough decisions to make so That's the one thing that could trip McLaren up this year is themselves. When you talk about boundaries, it's choosing your favourite child, isn't it? I mean, that's why I only had one. I've got twins. How hard is that? Which one is it?
Yeah, I definitely don't have a favourite child, but they all know, they both know which one it is. And it's each one of them. Tell us about the track at Suzuka, Mark. Who's it going to favour? Well, first of all, it's a brilliant track. It is one of the greatest, as I said at the top of the show. Drivers all love it as well. It's very fast, very flowing. Each corner flows into another. So you get each corner right. It just feels seamless. You get one corner wrong, though, and the knock on him.
happens for a few corners after that. It's very tough on tires. And so we've got the hardest in the range of compounds from Pirelli this weekend. So that's definitely going to be a factor. Who's it going to favor? It's a difficult one to say. McLaren are going to go in there as favourites just because they...
absolutely have the best package. But we're so early in the season, and again, come back to small sample sets that we've been talking about all show long, we haven't seen enough. This is the first of the sort of traditional type racetracks on the calendar. So we're going to see... a new set of characteristics come out or be tested at least from some of these cars, my money would still be on McLaren because they just have the best all-round package. I think we could also see...
Mercedes do quite well here. I think Red Bull are going to have it tough, even with the might of Max Verstappen in that car. As you said, it's peaky. And if you don't get that... sequence of corners at the beginning right then you're knocked off balance for the whole thing and there are some such iconic portions of this track. And if you wake up early enough on Sunday morning, 5.30am, we're on air from.
It is just one of those classics and you just feel the momentum of a driver as they go through these winding, fast, twisting sections. And we've had some epic crashes here. I mean, Aliment Dishes crash at R130. was horrific, but amazing that he walked away from that and is back racing cars and continued. But it's a real test for the drivers and they have to hook it up. And I think George Russell is in fine form at the moment. and seeing that Mercedes and getting it all clicking together.
Kimi Antonelli, his teammate, debut. It's going to be tough for him. I think George Russell could do well. And the confidence of a podium finish as well for George Russell in China. He's doing really well. In a car that's clearly not as quick as the McLaren at this stage, he's sort of almost...
over delivering, which is all you can do as a driver. There are some unknowns as well. We're at a different time of year, as Jenny said. So there's maybe weather, might even have rain on Sunday in the forecast. Half of the circuit, the first sector has all been resurfaced. That's another unknown as well. But this is what we love, isn't it? We're going in to a known circuit, but with a number of unknowns, with new cars, some new drivers as well.
That's what makes Formula One right now so great. And no one is going to discount Ferrari. Yes, they had that disqualification last time out, but I think that was the format of the weekend, the lack of information that they had, lack of sample data. could they potentially...
See what happened last time out with Lewis on pole and a win again. I mean, it would be crazy. Well, I mean, I was going to ask Captain Ferrari next, Mark. And I mean, what will the team at Ferrari have been doing during this last couple of weeks? A lot of head scratching. going on, you'd have thought. And how do you end up with a double disqualification for different reasons? Yeah, it's...
A very, very poor outcome. And it does come down to sort of human error. It was nothing more than a mistake, unfortunately. It's a pretty big one as well to get both cars. One was Lewis Hamilton was that the car was running too low. And one of the things we now know of the back...
of that was that their car delivers a lot of performance when it runs low to the ground. So the lower you can run it effectively, the faster it will go. But of course, when you run it low, it scrapes along the ground if you're running too low and it wears away that skid block. That's what they were... penalised for. So the upshot of that is they'll be aware of that now or more aware.
and potentially have to raise the ride height, even just by a small amount, that could compromise their performance. So that's a challenge. And the other one was being underweight. Now, that's just a cardinal sin in Formula One terms from an engineering point of view. You see it every now and again. It doesn't have to be by much. We were talking...
something like a kilo or two kilos, it's nothing. But that's enough to break the rules. So they're just going to have to be more careful and more accurate with their measurements. And that sounds crazy to people listening at home, but they're pushing the boundaries so much. That's what it comes down to. Those tiny, fine margins, isn't it? Absolutely. They make that difference. Well, I mean, how much do I weigh a kilo? It's a, yeah.
It's a bag of sugar. Yeah, it's something we'd all like to lose probably off the hips. But when it comes to cars, it's a slightly different matter. And I think Lewis Hamilton will have gone into Ferrari with such high hopes and getting that pole and converting it in the sprint race on the Saturday.
It'll feel... this is it this is my chance again and then to come away with that poor result from Ferrari and as a team to have lost out and okay they didn't lose the win thank goodness but to have seen that little window of how they operate at Ferrari and that actually it's not...
as good as he would like. I mean, it has to be perfect for Lewis Hamilton. And if it's not perfection, Lewis is going to be there banging on the door saying this isn't good enough, raise the standards. And he is a hard task. master. So yeah, let's hear from Lewis Hamilton. Here's what he had to say going into the race this weekend.
I was at the factory with the team during the week, really impressed with how the team digested and worked through the analysis and figuring out ways of working better moving forwards.
better processes and just being hopefully make sure that doesn't happen again and and then coming here this weekend I mean every week every weekend I do with the team is a new experience at the track that i've been to before but obviously it's the first time in a Ferrari around this track and i don't know what to expect in terms of how the car will feel necessarily but I feel positive. Obviously, I've got two races behind me now and experienced the tires.
Like for example the C2 tire there that we had in the last race I hadn't actually driven that before so Finally got a race with that under my belt and yeah, I feel positive coming this weekend Well, I mean, Lewis Hamilton also saying he's got 100% faith in Ferrari, despite that sort of slightly difficult start to the season. I mean, you work with the guy, Marcus, who said...
And as Jenny was saying, he's very, very exacting. How difficult does that make it for his team, for the engineers, for everyone involved behind the scenes? Well, it puts pressure on them, but kind of in a good way, because, you know, I can tell you from my experience of working with him, we upped our game as a result of working with him. And not just him, but lots of other people who had these same exacting standards. Formula One's full of people like...
that. But Lewis, I think, stood out as being someone who has this incredible work ethic, amazing level of determination. And he's been reinvigorated, re-energized by going to Ferrari with this sort of new start. I think he needs
it because the time at Mercedes ended although we had a huge amount of success it ended in a sort of disappointing way almost the last few years so he needed the move I think it's come at exactly the right time with Ferrari sort of on the up in terms of their performance of getting closer to the front
And that's why that sort of disqualification and the poor end to last timeout was so disappointing because actually it's not been a bad start to get a win in the sprint so early it is his Ferrari career. I don't think necessarily anybody... even given that he's a seven-time world champion, could have predicted that because...
It's a lot to learn with a new team. He's got a very good teammate in Charles Leclerc and he dominated him in China. So I think Lewis can be pretty happy with the way things are going. And there's still a huge amount of scope to get better still. And I think his teammates...
I think will be a really interesting dynamic as well. We speak about the McLarens and how they will develop as they go through the season. Charles Leclerc has always been very strong. And to see him up against someone like Lewis Hamilton, you'll get a real gauge of...
how this is going to develop. And Lewis Hamilton, we know, is so fast. He's got the most pole laps of anyone. But Charles Leclerc is known as the fastest man around one lap. So let's see what happens when they... actually get that car working well for both of them around a track that they know and we can actually see has Lewis lost it which he claimed at the end of last year that he just wasn't as fast or actually was that just the situation well that was an interesting
point actually wasn't it the end of his mercedes career we did hear comments like that he's an emotional character that's another huge part of his his makeup is he's emotional and therefore you know it seems a strange thing to say about someone who's had so much success but he needs
the self-confidence to be able to deliver. So having a good start at Ferrari was so, I think, so crucial to him. The disqualification certainly wasn't his fault. He's delivering at the moment, I guess, on par at least, if not above where we thought.
he needed to be imagine if it had not gone well imagine if he'd been dominated by Leclerc for the first couple of races that little element of doubt might have crept back in and you know he starts to convince himself that actually he's no longer fast anymore in reality but I mean he's proved
that he was fast by winning the sprint race, hasn't he, really? Exactly what I mean. It's gone the other way, which I think is exactly what he needed. And for us as fans, that's what we wanted as well. It might be the opposite of what Leclerc would have wanted, which is not to have his teammate dominate that sprint race.
But what a moment that was just going back to that Chinese sprint race to see Lewis Hamilton win for Ferrari, the team that he so-called dreamt of driving for the whole of his career. I mean, it was just... And if he can replicate that and get more wins and build that momentum, it could be really interesting. And Suzuka, is that a track that, I'm sure you've got this at your fingertips, his record at Suzuka.
Because of all the drivers, he knows every track, like the back of his hand. I can't remember the numbers, but you can pretty much pick any track and say Lewis has got more wins than most people. Yeah, he's phenomenally successful around Suzuka as well.
He loves it. He loves it as well. Yeah. As they all do. Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, I don't have, I'm really annoyed with myself. I was going to have those. Sorry, I threw this out. I can find them in probably the next minute. I'll challenge myself. What I would say.
Talk amongst yourselves. It's a real driver's circuit. And so the drivers feel like they can bring the difference. And, you know, some circuits, that's more prominent than others. And Lewis will feel going into that, as lots of the drivers will.
they will feel that if they have a good weekend, they can bring the difference that their team is looking for. And we mentioned that it's kind of going into a triple header, really. So does this feel like the season is gaining momentum now that, you know, it's kind of going through the gears, as it were?
Yeah, because now it comes thick and fast. You know, you wait so long, what seems like so long for that first race in Melbourne. It wasn't very long ago. Very quickly after that, you've got the second one. Then there's this little gap. You know, it's only been one week where we haven't been racing.
we go into a triple header it's brutal and everyone involved but it does mean that if you have a great weekend you can ride that wave if you have a terrible weekend it's not long before you get another go at fixing it so i think this early in the season i think there's an element that the teams like that So producer Joe has saved our buses. So four at Suzuka, five in Japan because he did one at Fuji. So yeah, an impressive record. And I think pole stats have...
If you start from pole, you win from pole. It was quite impressive there as well, I seem to remember. So, yeah, it should be a good weekend. And the teams, you know, so you're now on that circuit. So we've mentioned Suzuka, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia coming. Back to back to back. I mean, you know, it must be exhausting. Pack up, travel. I mean, because they're not that close to each other, are they, really? I mean, my geography is not brilliant, but I mean, yeah.
It's tough. It's tough on everybody in terms of, you know, yes, the drivers, but even more so the people working way behind the scenes, the hundreds and hundreds of mechanics and engineers and strategists and everyone that travels, not just even with the teams, but the...
periphery of what goes into a Formula One operation is huge so three on the bounce like that in very different geographical locations in quite extreme environments some of those as well it's tough i think they'll be hoping that no one has a big smash this weekend because if someone bins it then they have to get another car all the way to Bahrain in time. And updates, they won't get any updates. So, yeah, it's a constant drama in F1 of don't crash a car at the top of three races. Absolutely.
going to go this weekend guys predictions for the weekend i can't really predict anything other than a mclaren victory, the difficult thing is deciding which one. Come on, who? Lando. I'll go Piastri. Hedging your bets, the two of you. Ellie? Yeah, no, I'm going to go with both of you. Unless this is the weekend.
for, you know, the romance of Lewis Hamilton on the top of the podium. And another win at Suzuki. Or maybe Tsunoda. Yuki Tsunoda. Or Yuki Tsunoda. I mean, that would be the dream. Liam Lawson. Don't be ridiculous. No, you're pushing it. But yeah, OK, maybe that's it. Yuki Tsunoda in Suzuka at cherry blossom season. Wow. I love it.
Perfect. Five Live's coverage of the Japanese Grand Prix at the race is on Sunday morning, of course. Lights out at 6am. Build up from 5.30. This has been an IMG production for BBC Radio 5 Live. The top ten is out now, only available on BBC Sounds. Join myself, Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer, Micah Richards and my dog as we dig into the top ten of the Champions League. We go through our favourite goal scorers, best moment in a year.
Even our all-time 11s. Now that, gentlemen, is a list. No, Woody didn't get on the list. He didn't get on the reserve list. You can listen right now on BBC Sounds.