Very good morning everyone, and a warm welcome to Executive Insights by Media Corp, marketing through uncertainty with agile strategies and data-driven precision. My name is Jackie. I'm the chief commercial officer at Media Corp and I'll be your host today. So what we're going to talk about in the next hour is hot on every business owner and marketer's minds. Because no matter which industry we're in, it's hard to find businesses that are not impacted by the.
wider global environment of trade tariffs, rising costs, disrupted supply chains, and all the overall you know sense of unpredictability and concerns about the economy. Um, so we're very privileged today to be unpacking this interesting topic with three very accomplished and respected industry leaders who have not only weathered previous storms, but have also flourished through the, the, the various challenges over the years, right, as they run their businesses.
So to share their perspectives and their know-how and how they remain agile, sharp and adept in turning market volatility into business opportunities. So allow me to introduce, um today we have Ian Luon. He's the CEO of Media and Digital Singapore and Chief Transformation Officer of Southeast Asia Publicist Group. We have Deborah Soon, a group head of brand communications, marketing and experience from Sing Life, and we have Paul Soon, CEO of Malin Lo Singapore and China.
So I'll kickstart today by directing my first question at Paul. So, uh, how have, you know, how have recent economic and geopolitical shifts impacted marketing plans, be it in the way you do budgeting, targeting, planning, or messaging? Um, what kind of shifts and pivots have you personally made and and and observed in your time?
Uh, thanks a lot, uh, Jackie, and good morning, everyone. Um, that's a wonderful question. Um, on, on the, on our end, because we are more of a creative agency that supports our clients and brands, uh, the observation is that when Uh, there are signs of economic downturn or headwinds. Uh,
there's a greater call for agency consolidation. In other words, um, a greater lens whereby clients are looking to partner agencies that are able to do more for them in a more integrated and organized fashion because that really helps drive my next point, uh, which is also the shift in operational relevance and in ensuring agility. Um, and more importantly, also, um, I'm pretty sure, but
I'll be the first one to say it. And there's also a drive for adoption of AI today, uh, which also will be seen as a multiplier, uh, but hopefully used in a very, very meaningful way. So these are just two observations that at least on the service provider standpoint, uh, we start, we react with our, with our brands. Right,
very interesting. I mean, what about Ian, what have you observed personally or maybe activated in terms of changes and pivots?
So, firstly, good morning, everyone. I think, um, very similar to Paul, right? I think, uh, for the publicist group, you know, and, and the business that we are in, you know, it's always in service of our clients. So I think um that the reactions and um and the undertakings have been quite diverse, but I think firstly, uh, the first point perhaps to echo what Paul had said, right, we are seeing a lot of consolidation. Uh, in terms of the various, uh, service lines, right,
that we are providing to many of our clients. And I think this is often, you know, for better or for worse for the agencies, um, um, on, on different occasions, of course, consolidation means that we get to take on more, right, uh, to connect the dots between lateral services again, whether it's creative, production, media, digital, CRM, commerce. Um, and I think fundamentally we're all doing that also because of, uh, of the need for greater title orchestration, right,
and agility at the same time. So many clients are moving to that space and I think beyond just what's happening for us, even when we reflect on our client organizations, right? I think there is also that sort of pressure to ensure that interdivisions, interpartments, right, are working a lot more seamlessly to exchange a lot more. Information and intelligence. So I think that's the first point that really reflects how bottom line focus, you know, the
bottom line focus adjustments are. But I think uh for quite a number of our clients, right, I think we also, we also see that there's a shift for a shift towards the value-based messaging.
So I think, you know, uh, it's no longer just about communicating, for example, the specific product launch, right, but trying to shift and create more value so that consumers can feel that they're getting really more bang for their buck, you know, like, uh, more bundles, for example, right, that tell us to speak of, you know, specific loyalty points, cashbacks,
you know, that sometimes financial services would cover. And actually recently as well, you know, an auto client of ours, right, you know, the automotive sector.
Uh, used to have, you know, test drives where you can only do it for like half an hour when you go to the showroom, but now there's an invitation, right, for test drives for you to actually borrow the car for a couple of days, drive it and get the full experience and a full bang for your time going for that trial, and then deciding after the end of 3 or 4 days whether or not you actually want
to purchase the car, right? So there's a lot more value-based messaging again, I think that that is coming across for people to to stretch their dollar and their time. Right,
right. I'll pose this question also, maybe Deborah, you could jump in. Um, based on what the two gentlemen have said, uh, I can hear two very different perspectives, right? One is probably driven by cost savings, you know, wanting to have more synergy, uh, consolidation. uh, but the other at the other end of the spectrum, we see brands potentially becoming more innovative.
Not necessarily just coming from a cost perspective with Ian's example about how auto brands have also tried to be a lot more experiential thinking from the customer's perspective, how to make that entire brand preference and buying process a little bit more seamless by even extending a half day test drive to a 3 day experience. So from your perspective, you know, in Sy life, like how would you, what were the shifts that you have seen? OK, first, I'd say that usually media and marketing are
the first budgets to get cut, right? All of us know that. We have been in the industry long enough. So we are a barometer of the economy and a global shifts in the economy. So all of us have felt this, hence, you need to consolidate. We are constantly trying to do better and get better efficiency. I'm on the client side now, as you guys know. Uh, and we also know the other trend where clients are in housing a lot of things because we think it will
be faster, go to the market, more efficient. It's a challenge for all of us in the industry, right? Uh, we have done that as well. Um, I used to work with, actually, Paul has been a great partner, right? But we in-house some stuff, and, sorry, Paul, but I guess that's the reality, right? Um, if you're capable of doing it, you do it, or you hire the capabilities and you think you get better ROI like this. That's what we've done as a brand. How else are
we going to be innovative? We, so besides in-house, we use a lot more data, we use our own client data, because we have data to mine. So you see also a consolidation of marketing functions. The role of the CMO has changed, right? We are now also, I'm also chief customer officer. Experience stands for customer experience, customer, you know, segmentation, loyalty programs, engagement. Uh, you talked about car buying and
car trends. Today, we have a partnership with, we have a car brand that's partnering us to do test drives today. We are leveraging that. They are leveraging our client base. We are leveraging their client base, their budget to organize. We're not paying for it. They're paying. Yes. So, so these things are happening, right? It's, it's also a function of the way media and consumption has gone. Social media has gone. We've seen how the entire landscape has fragmented.
It's also called the fragmentation of the touch points for customers. And that is the, the challenge that I think all of us have to. Rise up to, right, rise to, because we are all trying to reach customers and to grow customer share.
Now I was saying building on your point, right, that um because all the roles are starting to merge and it's really difficult for us to decouple between or you know, even from a, if you look at it from a platform platform standpoint, it's harder to even say which parts are done by a creative agency or a social agency or a client or a production house these days, right? Or an influencer. Or a creator, the roles have actually started to blur. Um, but do you also see that uh brands are also
taking a bit of a short term approach, right? So because of cost constraints and you know, everything having to stay within the budget, do more with less, there is always a tendency to just run chase down the rabbit hole of lowering our cost per acquisition or cost per lead, driving results, um, uh, in the immediate term, right? Because there's a lot of
business pressures there. Um, do you see that there will be also risk in how brands are foregoing a lot of brand building efforts and there might be actually longer term or mid-term to longer term payoffs as a, I mean, as in, uh, impact as a result of this? I'm sure that uh CFOs will expect that, that you continue to cut your brand budget, which literally has happened to some of us, but uh then what we have to do is to be clever, more clever how we manage our budget.
So basically the product and brand budgets have merged. At least in my team, right? I don't know how others will do it, um, but what it means is you need to align the messaging tan. Right? And that is getting that, getting more collaboration within your teams, making sure people's KPIs are aligned, that you know that the brand targets must align with the product sales targets. And it's really for us in the marketing space, the content creation space to, to really think deeper and
idea better. Um, I think. There is still a lot of value working with external service providers because you have to, I think an outside in view is always necessary, right? So brands, companies and brands still need to do that. Maybe they might forgo it in the short term, um, but if you do forgo spending on brand and the short term, you know the payback will come. All of us have been around long enough to know that the payback will come. You
still need to spend on brand. That overall story, you still need that. It might not be brands spending the same way that we've done it. We don't do a big brand, or now we call them brand films, we don't call the TVCs, right? Your big brand film, you might do digital extensions, you might, you want to target people differently using digital, but some out of home media is still, you know, that at
present is still required, at least that's how I feel. Right? Uh, maybe for building on Deborah's points, I wanted to check with Paul as well because you know when Deborah was mentioning about with the same budget. Uh, clients are not expecting you to tackle both objectives, right?
Short term, long term. Does that translate into struggles for your team when you, when you are trying to digest a brief and with the same resources, you have to tackle both objectives, and has that been challenging or have you found some success cases and being able to do that effectively?
I think, uh, Jackie I will respond to this in two ways. Um, one is that, uh, I think the agency and client relationship has to be built on trust, and trust actually built through difficult times, not so much the good times. So everybody can do a lot of things during the good times, and that's the best part of it. Um, but the active conversation on how to help each other, support each other through the Uh, turbulent moments are the ones that allow us to
build what is meaningful. And I think as an agency partner from my external view, our job is still to maintain a sense of where the consumer is and where the opportunities would still sit. Granted that we also know that we need to be faster, we need to be more reactive. We need to also look at how we repackage our costs in order to support the key initiatives that we are running and, and to also accept. Uh, what clients like Deborah had to do? Can we
take things internally? What do we need to do to help with that, and how do we reshape everything? But I do want to echo a point, especially to our listeners, uh,
that brand building should never ever stop. In fact, actually, uh, research has shown that brand building during turbulent times is actually one of the more, even more critical, because scientifically, we're building memory structures, and then I'm pretty sure, uh, I can lean in, right, from a media perspective, there's also lots of opportunities to reframe what brand building is.
And then of course, you, you recut some of the activities that are seemingly frivolous or not so important, but then sharpen your areas of activation, especially in Singapore and so on. And we all Singaporean, consumers tend to love an emotional connection and a brand with a point of view. Uh, so, I think, uh, during turbulent times like this, it, it is a wonderful opportunity to do the right thing with your agency partners and, as a brand, um, to
really sharpen your message and build for the future instead. Um, I think, I think it's seen as an opportunity that way for us also.
Right. We'd love to hear from Ian, uh, what do you think about this point and, you know, in terms of how it applies to, to your area of.
Definitely going to double down on some of the points that um Deborah and Paul had mentioned, right? I think firstly, not investing in brand is bad for business. Uh, and, and I'll be very pointed about this because ultimately as well, if you don't invest in brand, right, you're not going to have any pricing power and you're also going to
lose customer loyalty, right? Um. But I think this HO argument between brand and performance budgets, you know, uh, it's it's, it's not only of recent times, you know, I think I could recall that, uh, it started to intensify even 5 years before the pandemic, so like 10 years ago, right? And, and the reason why again is because the, the trade-offs are often more immediate for you when you invest in performance to know what outcomes you're actually getting.
Simply because of the transparency, you know, from, uh, all the data that you get from some of the platforms, for example, right, that have made actually performance marketing a
lot more appealing. Um, but I would say again that, you know, it's, it really has to be quite an intricate balance because we, we do, we have seen again, you know, clients overinvesting too much on the lower part of the funnel, uh, and then over time as well, diluting margins and driving unsustainable benchmarks as well towards pricing, you know, um, it's not going to help, right? And it's a race just the price at the end of the day and, and even for the agency resources to optimize to the cows
come home, right? So I think there's a lot of challenge uh in in in that domain. I think the answer to, to the, the answer to some of these right now still goes back, you know, to perhaps. Um, uh, engaging in, you know, uh, market mix modeling studies or ROI analytics and sometimes, you know, when, when I, when I refer to these points, um, there are some clients, for example, who who who take a back seat because like, oh, how much is it going to cost? How much time
will it take, right? But the reality is that actually the last couple of years, there has been a lot of uh very accessible and uh I would say more dynamic and fast-paced modern techniques, right, to MMM. And uh and in fact, all you need to ensure is that your data, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your data is clean and organized, right? You, you are open about the collaboration with all your agency partners, you know,
and internal divisions about why you're doing it. Everyone pulls data together, clean. it up and then from there you can ingest the model as well. You can ingest all the data into the model and you can get outcomes and this actually gives a lot of marketers, right, probably a language to use in the boardroom, right? Again, to convince CEOs on why marketing shouldn't be the first budget to get cut. So I think maybe that's ah that's uh that that's something that we could all look to follow up on
as well, right, as an industry. Yeah,
do you feel, I mean, and this could be posted 3 of you, right? Do you feel that because there's so much data and so much pressure for accountability and for every dollar to count, um, that it also requires a different kind of courage and pitching approach to stakeholders to get them to agree to invest in things that are not necessarily immediately trackable, but you know, a longer term, like you say, If you were to do MMM modeling or if you
were to do say brand uh perception shifts, right? Those are not um those are not data points that would be able to justify immediate investments, right? So do you find it very difficult for or challenging to advise clients in this area when um the push is always towards looking at data because that's linked to the other question that we're talking about the signals that you are tracking, right? um when it comes to managing in such volatile time. Would any of you want to take this?
I, I, I could jump in first. I mean, the, the response to give an analogy, right, is that in our busy state of life right now, you always want to still think about planning for your next vacation because
everyone deserves a break, right? But if you don't take it, then At some point in time, you know, you're going to end up as well burnout, and this is where I feel that, you know, investment on things that you don't see immediate returns for because of the urgency of what's in front of you, at some point it's going to
come back to bite you, right? And, and I would say that um The, the, the investment on the right resources and infrastructure to get your to get your data silos right in place and organized is probably the most important thing right now that everyone has got to look into, especially if you want to adopt AI because AI alone, right, as we get to that topic later as well, will not be able to function if you do not have a clean data environment.
And that's super important and critical right now, right? So just going back to the analogy again, I think, you know, it's going to be a bit of a pinch to put that investment forward, but it will pay off in the long run. Just as going on a holiday, right, you're thinking about it, you give it a break, it's just to last for another 6 months, right, through
pitches. I'm thinking about Paul and Deborah, is there anything you want to add to this point? Well, I think we also have a challenge of being data fatigued. There's so much data out there, and you know, the decision makers don't want to see all that data. You just need to convince them with one and, and, and that really is sometimes a challenge. And what we say, investing in brand, doing a brand study, I think we all just have to bake in our studies, our research into the campaign.
From the start, that's what we have to do. You track brand performance, you know, whether it's uh awareness, consideration, so on. We've done that from the start. So we can see there's a clear correlation between our campaign's launch and the brand going up, right? And these are things, data points which uh decision makers just need to know, be a little bit convinced, uh, when you get trust and buy in, then hopefully they won't question every last dollar that you're spending.
Um, of course, when times are tough, getting another extra 100,000, 200,000 is difficult, but if you're strategic campaigns that need to or objectives that need to be achieved, you still need that, you still need to be convinced with relevant data. So yeah, I sometimes find, find my team drowning in information. I drown in the data as well, really. And sometimes all the bosses want to know, oh, the CFO wants to know is conversion. OK. That's always a challenge for
all of us. I don't know how you all, I mean, how do you, how do you convert insurance products it's a long term product, blah blah. It's not really an FMCG good. That's my challenge, right? So you don't always see the conversion, but you see the awareness. So again, sometimes that is, that is a challenge.
I think Jackie might just uh lean a bit and uh I'll be slightly controversial maybe since I a bit more controversial since I wear the, I mean at the end of the day I think uh if you're if you're managing a small medium business, I, I believe that you should be closer to your, your customers actually. I think you should trust the fact that uh Uh, because you may not have a, a large organization to work with it. I'm not saying that you, you don't want big companies. I just say that you probably
should be closer to your customers. And in these moments, I think you should really lean into what you really know your customers even more. But my greatest advice is to then really create a value system that will drive more outcomes for you, uh, whether it's brand or, or, you know, we, we, we create terms so that we are able to sell ideas and justify.
You know, reasons to exist sometimes. But if you really think of the fundamentals of, uh, before they became such a big thing, creativity and some gut instinct and knowing your customers, because you, you talk to them every single day and your intimacy with them, you should know some of the answers. And I think in, in these moments, in this, um, you know, uncertain times, the only certainty is you knowing your consumer. Whether it comes from data points or whether it comes
from the conversation. So you should really talk to your consumers more and talk and talk and talk, and then do your propositions and value system, rebuild that for the future so that you can be more robust. So I, I, and please be brave with your creative messaging. Please be differentiated. Please take some risks, because not doing anything is also bad.
Please do something, at least create something that will shift the needle, or at least have a talking point, because that, that really helps us. So Deborah,
where we can pivot into the AI story, you know, we talk about creativity and being differentiated, which is what we all as marketers want to be, right? AI is not going to give you the differentiation and creativity. I mean, they will give you three ideas. We are already on
boarding tools, right? That's the challenge of AI um and this go to market ideation will be much faster, but you need that creative difference and that understanding of your customer to be able to do something that is totally relevant and That will set you apart. And that's what we all want to do as brands and AI cannot do that, right? It will create you what you give the brief without that extra spark of creativity.
Yes. OK. Now, I want to say that actually, if you look at, um, to the point about analyzing data and using it, um, to apply to adapting our plans, right?
And you're saying about AI as well. Would you say that, um, even if you have all this data at your disposal and you understand what's working and what's not, um, very often, even if you know or you can draw insights from there or directional guidance on what to do next, how quickly and how responsive can businesses B and what kind of systems and tools do you rely on um to enable this process of responsiveness, right? That that ultra responsive mode. How do you actually do this?
I mean, and this question can be unpacked in a few ways. One, it's at a campaign level, one is potentially at the business level where you take advantage of opportunities because you may have observed certain data signals that tells you that there is a there's a burgeoning trend in a space that you might want to build a product for. Uh, and also at a, at a multi-market level, and
that's probably more for Ian, right? Because you handle uh multi-market businesses like in terms of how you set up, how would you put systems and processes and tools in place to help us be a lot more responsive um uh towards our driving towards our objectives, even with all the data signals and everything that we are we are now looking at.
I, I would probably start off first, uh, speaking again as an agency practitioner where we work with clients from very diverse sectors, right? Pharma healthcare, to telco, to to financial services, to government, um, and, and, and I guess the first thing that um I've always encouraged my leaders is, and leaders and teams, in fact, Um, it's not really a tool. It's, it's, it's really to, it's more about the fact that we all have to take very keen interest about what's happening around us, right?
So rather than, you know, uh, spending a few hours doing scrolling, you know, really tune into.
News Asia, right, or you know, just really read but, but, but I think that that's been extremely helpful as well, you know, in terms of how we're just really gaining, you know, insight to what's going on in the world and how there are some implications then that will hit our clients, even for myself when I meet up with, you know, CMOs again, right, at least I know what what what what's at the back of their minds or
their boss' minds to then be able to empathize. So I think that's the first, the starting point, right, for everything. Um, uh, and then if I, if I move down into down into closer to execution, right, um, I think simply because we, we also built a lot of dashboards for our clients and I guess clients would also be expecting us to report on.
Campaigns, right? It's not just about um uh dashboards for the marketing investments that we have, but also if we can try to integrate, for example, client performance data, sales data, for example, into those dashboards, um, I think that would also be something that our team should be referring to. Um, and again, right, that that's where we can own that conversation to see again where there are gaps that we could fill, where, where there could be optimization opportunities.
And then I would say, um, what's probably more important and probably all you can step in as well after me to talk about this, right? But I think from a, from a communication perspective and messaging perspective, you know, increasingly, um there are a lot more. New generational subcultures, cultures and subcultures, right, that are surfacing, you know, and uh one thing could be trendy, you know,
for for today and something else could be for tomorrow. Obviously, you know, you don't have to jump into every single one of them, but it would be good to start to monitor and observe as well, right? Like what's really going on, because we are all in our own respective echo chambers and sometimes the consumers as well or your new emergency. Consumers could be thinking about your product in a very different dimension if you don't. So it's, so it's very
closely related to what Paul said, right? Engage your consumers. In this case, you can use social listening tools, you know, media monitoring tools, look at search intent data, right? To just determine again, right, what, what are some of these angles, right, that you could help, uh, to adjust your messaging strategy. Yeah, I, I, uh, I enjoy this, uh, because we're calling each other so that, uh, Jackie don't have to arrow. Um, I, uh, thanks for that. Maybe I give a real example, um,
and it's about 6 months ago. So look, using at least for Indonesia, but I think can apply to Singapore, um, using social listening, uh, we, we were trying to figure out, uh, whether we can find new segments to go for or not because it's a, it's a brand called Lifebuoy. You know, body wash, right? I mean, nobody really thinks about all these things so much. But then how do we try to find new audience in a time whereby it's slightly more turbulent and especially when, you know, uh,
individuals don't quite care. We typically will target moms for the families. Uh, through social listening, of course, we know that, uh, in Jakarta itself, there's a growing trend of people not having, uh, families not having more children, but instead of having, but instead, they because they have more pets. So, we would never market to a, uh, household of two and say, Hey, here's Lifebuoy and protect your family. But because they're fur parents, then the shift immediately went
into a campaign. They say, OK, we will use the same product, change the proposition, shift the messaging and say, if you love your pet, you should love yourself, therefore, you keep clean, right? You will work the whole day and all that. So, it is an interesting shift and we also see uplifts in different audiences. And I think that this is the right moment and, uh, to, to, even Deborah's and Ian's point. When you know your consumers, your product that well.
Data works in the way that it should drive value, not in the way to just be, to have a conversation around it just because you have it. But the outcome is where can I find a new audience? And can I shift my product into a proposition because the four-piece applies even, even more critically during a time where Where you have less money to spend, but it's a
real example and it works. So again, I think Singapore would try more of that, seeking new audience and looking at how product extension will work and pricing at the same time, as I mentioned. I
yeah, she looks like she has to. Well, thank you all for calling out the brand that I do for 20 years, yeah. Um, no, I feel it is very important. I agree totally with I, and we need more people in the industry to show that they are aware of what's going on in the world, right? Context is important. I always say you need to understand global big issues and trends. Then you need to understand things which are trending. Be on the pulse. Correct. And, and now, as Ian says,
there are more and more tribes, right? With social media, everybody has an interest group and, and the people at all, and we are responsible, we're targeting very specifically, right? So it is definitely harder to be, uh, it is easier and also harder to market, because you want to market and hit a specific audience group, but as Paul says, thinking bigger and getting new audience, how do you get
other people to like what you're doing, right? And to buy your product requires a bigger, a bigger lens. So it is, it is challenging, but I think, um, people in marketing and media really, uh, people who are supposed to be on trend anyway, right? But, and, and it's very important, right? And using data in a different way. I mean, thinking creatively and differently, how you get as
as for example is, is very important. Um, and, um, I don't know where the origin of the question was, whether it was about how, you know, we need to adapt, how do we manage the workforce that we to work for us, because, uh, Context is different, as we spoke earlier, um, before we started the call. I mean, we have many more young people in the agency, many more young people in our teams right now, millennials and Gen Zs, right? And, uh, they are very trendy, but sometimes you don't think about
the bigger picture, right? How do we get that? How do we get them on, on board with them to understand that these things are important when you want to win a pitch? You're not just creating that content, we're giving you the opportunity to present to the CEO of another company because that's what you expect today. So please have that, have that information and they have that presence, right? I don't know how you all do it, but yeah, how do you treat young people to think that way.
Do you think that also now with the whole emphasis on um. On being responsive, being very precise, uh, you know, leveraging on data and analytics, right, and everything else, even AI. Do you feel that it's more um challenging to define the value of creativity and what it means to be creative as well, you know, because that, that is a very, it's a big question, but I think very often um when we try to chase down.
Um, targets or we try to look at um driving, driving quick results, right, and we are all about using tools, we are all about scale, you know, all these words are like the buzzwords of every organization. I think for all four of us, there's no difference, right? Everyone will hear it at some point in time in meetings.
In our own internal uh management um reviews, like what do you think is the value of creativity now and where would it play best um in a volatile and challenging environment where we need to be quicker and sharper and more effective? Maybe I, I don't, any one of you wanna take this Paul in.
You, I, I could start. Yeah, I, I think, um, creativity is still really at the heart of everything that we do in marketing, um, because, you know, at the end of the day, what you want to drive is resonance, right? You need to cut through clutter and there's no, there's no other way but to be creative as well about your messaging and what you stand for, right?
And of course, then, you know, uh uh getting people just to, of course, you know, not just entertain them, but feel that they are connected then with an idea that you're trying to present to their lives, right, or based on the value proposition that the product is looking to offer. So I, I think it is harder simply because, you know, media is a lot more fragmented today. Everyone is so
distracted again with many things going on in our lives. Uh, but I, but there is absolute, there's still absolute value in being creative and whether or not it's again, uh, it's, I would say it's not just the agency's job. I think everyone can be creative, but at the same time as well, you know, it's not, it can't be overly democratized.
As well, I think there still has to be custodianship, and that's where again, right, you know, uh, creative agency leaders, you know, working hand in hand, for example, with marketing leaders to align on that, on that custodianship for creativity, can then start set the call to then start to be distributed into the more democratized aspect of how creative you can be, for example, working with creators or influencers and then getting them to be creative in their own
life based on what you have defined. Right? So, uh, yeah, that's that's my take on it. Actually
a point about custodianship of creativity, I think it's a very good point because I find even now with a lot of advertisers due to pressures to go to market quickly and to activate campaigns very quickly and with with, you know, very technical objectives, there's a tendency to also sometimes go even straight to publishers or creators directly, right, and sometimes not even collaborating that closely with Uh, agency partners and you know, I've been to both
sides of the ecosystem, fully understanding the dynamics, right? So when when that happens, who remains the creative custodian? Is it still important to have that custodianship? Will it be the client then taking on that role because they have actually removed uh that that layer of experience hand from a third party help, an expert help, right, to oversee that all elements actually stack up to a bigger whole picture.
Um, so that, that is a question I think uh probably I see Paul smiling, so I'm going to direct that question to him.
I see Deborah smiling. Uh, since you asked, I mean, for me, I think that that's, you know, back to my first point, I think that's where the strength of the relationship, the agency with client is built. Who can help when is important. Um, but for my experience so far, over the years, um, working with brands like Unilever and all that, right, um,
They try. Most brands would try, but ultimately, at some point, the agency will still come back to assist and help to ensure that at least the narrative is consistent and, uh, and, and built in a way, uh, that the, the use of KOLs and influences are really, uh, there's opportunity to amplify whatever we're trying to say. Because I think that's some guidance and guidance is still required.
Of course clients can manage that, but I think clients now have to also deal with the bosses a lot more and like never say got to become chief experience officer plus don't know what plus don't know what.
So
yeah, yeah, yeah, so sorry, yeah, so that's what I'm observing still currently.
What do you think, Deborah? OK, I think my experience is a little bit unique and different because I have come from content, as you all know, and Own platforms, understand. So it's a little bit different. I can do my little own thing here and I can say that I want, I drive the duration and so on. Of course, collaboratively with whoever we work with, right, and getting insights from the ground and from younger, from younger colleagues, but
I'm guilty of what you say, la. I mean, sorry, we buy, we commission our own content and go out, right? And we work directly to you guys as well, right? Um, I don't think everybody can do it, really. And I think, um, that is why there will always be opportunities in the I feel, right? Um, bigger brands might say want to create our own thing, but how? Are they really going to hire an entire agency to become an in-house team? They aren't. They can't.
Well maybe they can in the future. I don't know, but, uh, they might not have the expertise to do it unless they have one of you could set it up for them, right? And, um, I don't think we quite see that trend yet. I, I do see in housing a lot more, right? For some specific functions, but maybe not everybody will be bold
enough to have their own content creation team, right? They might do it for smaller things, social media posts, but not really creating videos, or maybe they, they do smaller videos, but not the whole shop, right? Um. So, creativity is still ultimately the most important thing I agree in. The second thing today, very tied to that is authenticity, right? How do you authentically speak to your customer with your, with your brand? How do you create authenticity, right?
And it is, it is a combination of understanding what's on the ground, uh, listening, as you say, social listening, and having, uh, having more people, uh, give you feedback. Uh, professionals who are close to the ground, give you feedback is important so that you can understand authentic conversations and how to. How to ensure that your brand remains authentic. So I think that that is something that, again, AI cannot quite replicate yet, right? Uh, how do you authentically speak?
How do you speak an authentic voice, authentic Singaporean voice to a Singaporean customer? To a customer in Bangkok in Thailand, right? There is still that localization element. There are still contextual elements that really I think the AI any AI to cannot quite get there yet. Because it's all about human connection. Your human daily conversations, which are not necessarily captured, you can't say, oh, speak like an author, maybe you can key that in, but.
And we said that maybe they're all listening to our conversations right now on the phone, right? But I think it will take a while. And this is where we come in as content creators, as as marketeers, where we have that voice to be able to not only convince the public, convince your consumers, but also to convince people in the boardroom. That you need to listen, and you need to listen to people who actually have an expert view to help you craft the messaging and the story and the video content,
whatever content on TikTok or whatever for your customers. So it does take, um, it does take, um, C-suite people to understand the importance of the function. And I think in today's context, more and more people see it because of the growth of media, social media. Um, so it's, it's a, it's a challenge, but it's also an opportunity.
So building on this, I was thinking that, you know, when we speak about clients or uh um marketers that are also doing some parts of in-housing, for example, and then and some parts of relying on experts, right, to help them with key tasks like building, whether it's about building authenticity of the brand or knowing whether you have the chops to be the creative custodian or Um, you know, how much of it should be outsourced and in-house, you know, with the, with the constant pressure
to go to market very quickly and to react in a very responsive manner, um, to, to drive numbers. What would you say that it's important for clients to also take a very, a very honest view of their own internal capabilities, you know, when it comes to their own resources, their own.
Um, set up, uh, their own background as well, right? Um, to your point, Deborah, because of your background, having been to different parts of the marketing ecosystem, um, there could be a lot more opportunity for you to then oversee, you know, the, the, the various, um, spectrum of, of, of, of, of marketing requirements, right? To, to drive towards your, your, your end goals. But not every brand is, is possibly, you know, uh, held necessarily by people.
With that varied background, right, or the experience. So, you know, from the, it will be interesting to also hear from agency standpoint, um, Ian and Paul, like what would be your advice to clients if someone came to you to ask about, you know, whether there is a, there is, uh, they should consider doing parts of their services in-house or parts of the things in-house so that they can go to market more quickly. Because in a lot of conversations I have with clients today, many of them who do.
Um, have parts of the businesses in-house. It's because they want to be faster. They think it gives them a lot better control, um, even though agency partners typically have, I mean, probably invest in bigger tools, global tools, you know, global data and you know all the the the the the AI technology, for example. So what would you say to that and how would you advise them to, to navigate, you know, if if such conversations do pop up in the boardroom?
So, so I could start with this, right, and, and I would say that um in multiple conversations with uh local and international clients, there is no right or wrong answer, as long as you're very aware about where your trade-offs are going to be.
Right? Um, and the example again, for example, if we take in housing as an example, right, uh, there is truth then that there can be a lot more, uh, direct connection then with with the team, the agency in-house team to go faster to market, right, with, uh, with how, for example, you're connected to the marketing and the board conversations is what they are going on, but where you will find the trade-off.
In the longer term and being an agency proponent for over 2 decades right now as well, or rather an employee for 2 decades, I would say that you, you will often then have a different problem to deal with because you're going to have churn at some point with your own internal staff, especially those, those the agency role, because most of, most of, most of the people who thrive within agencies actually enjoy diverse experiences working on different.
Clients, different sectors, you know, working on very different briefs and having that permission to challenge, right, uh, the marketing organization from time to time, right? Of course, if we do have a different point of view about how to go to market, rather than, oh, this person is my boss, so I've got to keep saying yes, right? So I think there has to be, there has to be uh uh introspection is always a very important thing. As for individuals as well, I think we always have to reflect.
And maybe a point that you know, Paul had mentioned earlier, right? I think the trust with with uh with your agency partner or the value of your networks is going to be very key, because I think if you have the receptivity to listen, right, and to get a download or get some honest feedback, then you would know perhaps what levers you actually do need to pull, right, at that at that circumstance that you're trying to do within your organization.
Yeah, I love the point about not falling into the trap of having an internal echo chamber, right? Because you're right. I mean, as much as agencies are paid by clients, but I think having that objective view and that expert view is always helpful to to bring some order and logic back into the discussions. And it also helps clients to balance the dynamics in the room, right, when you have very strong voices um in in uh in the media of multiple stakeholders having a different point of view.
Actually, sorry, I just, I just have one quick build to this, right, before maybe Paul you can go, uh, because it relates then to some to someone's question, right? Um, I in the chat itself about how can we make marketing and sales teams work more closely together, right? And I think, uh, I, I probably have the permission to say this as an agency practitioner that very, very often we see the politics between sales and marketing.
In organizations, right, because budgets again are bifurcated in some organizations, everyone's fighting for the budget and the right of control, uh, and I would just probably quote, uh, uh, our Prime Minister right in the latest uh SG rally as well, his focus was a lot about the we and not the me. And, and this is very often where of course the agency does play a role to come in again to say that, hey, you guys are not talking
to one another. You guys are trying to create different goals in KPIs. are contradictory. Let's go into the room together again, right? And let's figure out how we all succeed, right? By, by, by streamlining and trying to identify again the roles that we play and the value that we can, we can, we can look to contribute. So I think again, this is a form of how necessary introspection as well, right? Could probably serve by getting honest feedback, you know, from a partner.
Mm Wonderful. Paul, you wanted to say something just now?
No, I think, uh, I echo uh Ian's points. Um, I, I, I don't, I don't have any uh other bills today except for, I think from, uh, as we speak about marketing and sales, um, the respect of each role, where we talk about brand versus conversion, I think it's exactly the things that we've been talking about for the last 45 minutes, understanding that awareness and resonance drives easier sale.
Uh, and understanding that the sales conversion is important to marketing if that's released to them to also understand whether it's working or not. And I think that's exactly the, the point. And yes, we experienced a lot of the disconnect between marketing and sales and don't don't even talk about technology yet, because then you want to layer all your data together and all that, right? So that's ah some challenges that we face as an agency partner.
Um, but you have the ability now to reconfigure your operations because times are not so great, and this is the best opportunity to align and come together and say, OK, guys, let's solve this problem today.
Yes. Actually, um, now in the interest of time, I'm going to take one question um that also just came in from the audience. I thought this was a really interesting one because we know we focus a lot on creative control, creative custodianship, um, and how much control we need to to to let go a little bit of, right? Uh, as well as also making sure that everything that we do across all touch points stack up to a greater whole. Uh,
and also to Deborah's point about authenticity. So there was this question. That was posed by the member of the audience about how much should brands hand over to influencers and KOLs uh in terms of, you know, creativity, right? Uh versus controlling what they, they, they do or say or or create. Uh, or broadcast, right? Uh, in order to have a
unified brand voice without still stifling their authenticity. Because, you know, every creator, every KOL has their own style, their own way of doing things, their own way of communicating with their fans, right, and their followers. So they will want
to do things in their own way. But how do we ensure that, how much control should we maintain and how much should we let go of, um, in order to, to achieve the results without compromising their authenticity, nor the brand's authenticity and consistency. Yeah, can I, can I jump in there you're gonna use, if as a brand, you're going to use an influencer, first of all, you use an influencer, you which is align with your brand, otherwise you don't use that person.
Right? Secondly, if you want to control what an influencer does, it's or how they present themselves, it's impossible. Don't use the influencer as well, right? What you can do is give the influencer a brief on the content you want because that's your brand. But if you're going to interfere with how they present themselves, be themselves or their brand,
then don't use the influencer. It's not going to work, right? Um, the other thing about using KOLs, which I I tend, I try to provide guidance to my team is that Um, You, you use people that you are connected with and try to use them for the long term, right? Don't just use them for a one-off campaign. You can experiment and try, but people know that you paid the influencer to say these good things about you. So that also, the audience is not stupid. Customers are not stupid. They know.
Right, that you paid this person to sell this product, right? That's already at the back of my mind. In fact, that is for any influencer today. So there's no point trying to control. If it doesn't fit with you, just don't use that person.
The other thing, uh, Jackie, we keep telling our clients is that uh if you, you, you we hire the chaos and influencers for who they are and not, not to change them. Because, you know, as human beings, we shouldn't be changing anybody. Uh, and to Devil's point, we should invest time to build a relationship with the KOLs that we believe, uh, that carries the same values and will tell the stories that we want. It's not a question of can we change them.
It's a question of accepting them and then do they fit the brand values and not invest in them.
So, so the point is really not about control, but it's more about curation, right? So like from the start, when you actually select them into the, um, to be part of your, your marketing campaign or to be an ambassador of sorts, right? There has to already be very good guidelines and curation process where you're really comfortable with the way they're doing things and how they're doing things.
Um, and the kind of audiences that they're speaking to before you even shortlist them, right, that's the, that would be the direction how we are going. Yeah, yeah, sorry, Ian, you wanted to say something?
Yeah, I, I, I think it's a, it's a very important point and question to, to address, right? Because, uh, I think all around the world and even in our region, uh, influencer marketing dollars are significantly on an increase, and this is what we've noted again between both domestic and international clients, right? And in Singapore and Southeast Asia and beyond.
Uh, I think if you were to call out, you know, what, um, the Unilever, you know, all the world's largest advertisers right in the world, CEO Fernando Fernandez had said as well, you know, there's an intent of shifting 50% of their
dollars right towards social and, and, and creative first marketing. Um, it's important that every organization learns to get this right, but it's also quite tricky in some ways because, um, where we are observing the landscape for influences to be at this point in time is that there are There are, there are, there's a lot of fragmentation, right?
There are far too many players, for example, in the ecosystem, far too many agents and far too many individuals as well applying their trade in this front and Pricing pricing is is one thing to control, right? The prices are very dynamic and the lifespan of an influencer is not like, for example, a particular channel or a particular publication, right, where it stands for something over over years, right? Someone could be a hip hop dancer today and become
a mom tomorrow. So what they stand for as well is going to be something that needs to be observed. So going back to that point again, duration is going to be very critical, especially as we start to scale up. And what we are noticing, right, is that especially in the larger economies that will, that that that we are inspired by and it will take shape in this part of the world, right? We are seeing that where the creator engagements are.
Today are quite similar to where the publishing ecosystem was maybe about 1213 years ago. It's starting to move to a space where it's becoming more and more programmatic, right, because you need to manage it in scale. But at the same time as well, when I say programmatic, don't just think about media, right? Even the way you issue briefs as well to, to how you, to your, your curated creators, it's going to be something to think about.
So it's always that going back again to somebody, whether or not it's within marketing or within an agency to serve that custodianship first of what the brand voice stands for. What then the brand wants to commission to produce to say is something then that you own as an asset directly, right?
But on the other end of the spectrum where you want to then start engaging creators, you got to have some flexibility or a lot of flexibility for them to then exercise their own voice and their own style, right? But they all still, yeah, it still led us up to. to the core.
Right. Thank you for, for, for all the useful insights, right? I think that's very, very good perspectives that we're hearing
from the three of you. I think one final question before we, we end our webinar today would be, what kind of, um, I would say advice would you give to our listeners today, um, you know, when it comes to What would be the few things that you want them to take away when it comes to navigating, you know, all these market changes and volatility and also the impact of AI on um you know, the, the various parts
of the businesses that you are handling right now. You know, what would be that that parting shot that you would tell everyone? Um, OK, we, we talked about AI earlier, um, adapting and, well, first of all, not being afraid of new technology and AI, right? Getting on board, finding out what's there in the market. I think many, this last year and this year, there's been quite a big shift. Last year, we're still developing tools.
The market is still developing tools. This year, I've seen commercialization. Everybody's coming to you with their solution. It might not be fully thought out, but we're onboarding, we've onboarded a couple. And that your team needs to experiment and learn, right? Use the tools, don't be afraid of them. And then we still need to develop all the guard rails in place, right? So adaptability is very important. Resilience is important because of
what's is volatile out there, right? Being able to adapt quickly, being resilient in terms of being very clear with your brand voice and your objectives and your customer, right? Being resilient in the sense that not shifting just because things around you are shifting. At the core, you must be very clear what your values stand for and who your customer is, right? That's very important. Um. Yeah, and, and just then being able to experiment, not be afraid to try. Um, that is what I would
say I would advise anybody today who is in marketing, right? And, and go with the flow in a way, but at the same time, adapt, learn quickly. What about Paul?
Um, for me, I suppose, uh, um, AI definitely has to be part and parcel of the entire conversation from a business perspective, but it comes right down to brand and marketing itself, just know that if you don't set your tools up properly, especially addressing the fundamentals of what makes your brand truly distinctive, spending time and effort to really craft your brand tone, voice, and style, that's truly important.
Because part of that training data that you put into any Gen AI tool has to be built on that. These service, the competition and your consumers and all that, all that hard work of the 5 C's or 4Cs which needs to be done so that it feeds the training data to your Gen AI tools, whatever you use, so that you do not lose any point on distinctiveness and you're creating value back to your customer at every touch point as you try to dominate the media landscape
in however much money you have. Last point is, uh, please always keep the human in the loop. Make sure that uh there's always somebody there watching and guarding and training and and all that, and not just need it to do what it needs to do.
Leave it to run a life of its own. Yes, and finally from Ian.
I, I think it's, uh, I, I would, I would double down on the points, right? There is this Yin and Yang complimentary view of technology, right, uh, in service of the work that we do as humans. And I think over the last, over the recent months, you know, there are days where I feel overwhelmingly excited about what you know the age of AI brings, but I must admit there are also days where I feel a little bit scared.
Because you know, it's progressing so fast, but I've learned to accept and also encourage leaders to feel that it's OK to feel both, right? A little bit bipolar sometimes, excited to drive, but also it's OK to feel anxious. But at the end of the day, again, I think this is what fuels us then to ensure that we are addressing both planes, right? And again, one of it, like we spoke about earlier is making sure again that
you are still investing towards the future, right? And thinking again about, you know, establishing um how to. your hard data points and organize them as well to then work better in the age of AI, but echoing again what we discussed, I think that human connection, right, staying close to your customers, staying close to your colleagues, your staff, staying close to everyone around you and having these conversations, real genuine conversations is also going to be
really critical and key. So I think that's my parting shot and we all have to figure out how, you know, to balance our time, right, to address this need.
uh Yeah, I share the same views, right? I I feel. Excited as well as scared at times by all the the the difference, you know, like all the new technology that's coming up right in AI and all, but I think as part of our work and various, regardless of whether we're from the publisher side, the client side or the agency side, I think embracing it is is is a must, right? We we have to already get ourselves, um, you know, familiar and and use it to scale our
businesses in areas that make sense. I think the the guiding the guide posts will always be. Um, adopting it within the realms of ethical guidance, right? And that is always also a difficult one because it's a new area. So there's always that question about how do you do it responsibly, how do we ensure that the impact of AI is a positive one, and we act responsibly as not just as marketers or as agency partners,
but also as employers, right? Uh in terms of what this means for our people and our talent. So I think we're running out of time today but I wanted to really thank the three of you, uh, Paul, Deborah, I for this amazing sharing session today. Um, there's so much firsthand experience that have gone into the rich content that we have discussed and you've been so generous in sharing,
you know, all your insights and all the examples. Uh, I'm certain everyone today here probably would leave uh executive insights feeling very nourished, encouraged, a little scared but also very excited and hopefully clearer about how they could navigate. The, the all the the changes and the volatility in this uncertain times. So to end today, I think uh we would like to thank the three of you and we would also see everyone again very soon. Thank you. Thank you.