It's the most wonderful. Time, would you say? Did y'all? See the lab that went and ordered some food at a fast food restaurant and she changed everything to her order. It was so good. We should have come up with one for what are you talking? It was on Instagram. There was some. Pretty sure any widow song we came up with no. It's a bummer to be dad. Tell us. When we're on, all right, we're we've, we've started. Sorry. Yes, it's been recording.
This is all going in. This is every widow thing. We've been out celebrating Christmas together for dinner and the dinner was terrible. This is drunk. Every widow thing or every widow thing? Holiday edition. Yeah. We haven't gotten together in a while. This is the first time in, like, several months that we've all gotten together. So we were sitting at dinner, all four of us. We needed a break from each other. We need a break from widowhood.
Don't you feel that? I mean, I'm wondering if our audience feels the same way that you need a break from widowhood. You just want to just be. Just be. Well, that is part of the thing, right? When once we started this podcast, when we got together, it became more about dead husbands and what we've learned and all of those things instead of just getting together and having fun. And that did put a a new spin. Right, work does take. Work tends to. Well, it became. Work.
It became work. And then we were worrying about, you know. And we have an aversion to work. Financials and and topics and all that stuff versus just going out and having fun. But tonight we were having fun and we all agreed that some of the topics that we were discussing would make a very good episode. So you're welcome, listeners. One of the things that I remember that we were talking about was just the holidays. Like fuck it, I'm not, I'm not doing Christmas cards.
And I mean we felt. Like that in 13 years? Right. Holly and I were talking about this the other day, like Christmas cards and stuff like that. We're not doing any of that shit, Lacey. You definitely feel free realize. You hadn't done the cards. In 13 years, Oliver was the photographer. OK, can I tell you something really dark and weird? Sure. Right. So right. I don't know if the other two are into it, but I'm telling. Right after Oliver died and.
Then for weird, but maybe not the dark. Well, it was dark if you think about it, because Oliver did all the photos and so he would take the picture and it was usually just Ryder. I mean, it's not like we had a dog. It's not like he had a sibling. And, and sometimes we did, the three of us early on, but as he got a certain age, right before Oliver died, the last two years we did just him. And then he had a tooth missing. And so we took that Oliver. No, Ryder did.
Yeah. No, Oliver had a tooth busy. No, he's just not OK, but so Ryder had a tooth missing that he was six years old lost his tooth. So this is just like before Oliver died and it said look what I'm missing. Merry Christmas. Well, the year after Oliver died, I thought, wouldn't that be an interesting? Oh, look what we're missing. All I want for Christmas and I. Know that's so weird and dark to think about but it was how my mind that's how where my mind
went was all these. Honestly, that would that would make me want to do a Christmas card, like to do something dark and funny like that at this stage. Like like a picture holding Hunter's ashes. Yeah, with Ryder, I was afraid everybody would be like super worried about me next. Year. That we do a Christmas card with our ashes or something. I guess we could have taken the ashes out tonight for that horrific meal that we. Had the meal was terrible, the
company was. Good, some ashes on that fish we. Won't do a shout out to that restaurant, no, though I hope they get better. Martinis were good. Well, obviously you can't really. Mess up a martini, Yeah. I mean, especially just to buy some martini, people literally just chilled by, well, you. Can mess it up, but. Let's talk about the holidays now because this is a hard time for for people that have loss. And what does it look like now?
You know, on our Every Widow Thing Insiders group on Facebook, I feel like we're always encouraging people like this is going to get better. It's going to get better. You're in it right now. It's super hard, but it does get better. There's a light, you know, it's not the end of the tunnel, 'cause I feel like we're going to be in the tunnel for the rest of our lives, but the tunnel.
Got a lot about it because I kept thinking how much do I tell the truth about about what distance does because I'm 13 years. In I think you tell. The truth. So I so yes, I feel like you don't want to not encourage people that's going to be better. It's like I told my dad, my mom recently died. They had a 66 year marriage. It was a good marriage. And of course my dad is sad.
But the one thing that I thought a lot about that is, is that I tried to tell him it's not that in 13 years it's better for me. I've learned to manage it better. There are still days, I still have days. I've had a couple of this week that I like. I come across the memories on my stupid phone, which are so annoying. That's why I posted the one with the well. That's why I posted the one about the boot. We used to do that. I did it every year. I've done it for 12 years.
When he went to college, I couldn't do it. But the point is, is that you it still hurts. It still hurts. I still have days that I think I look at people's postcards that they, I mean, I'm so grateful people give me the Christmas cards that I don't send out. Even though I don't send them out. I'm glad they do, but it still hurts. Their families are intact, and mine is messy. It's still just me and my son. And then I start trying to focus on, this is what my new thing has been.
Maybe Whitney is rubbing off on me. God forbid I'm going to start wearing, you know, fishnets. You're. Well, I'm starting to look. I'm starting to look at no, I love that you do that. And I think in that way, I'm trying to look for the beauty and what I've learned from all of this, which is I'm grateful I had it. Yeah. It didn't last very long. It was not quite 11 years, but some people never do. Some people never have that deep connection. But I am still seeking it.
It's still, it still feels like I would like to have that. But I think it's, I think it's going to be a little different. You don't have to have kids with them, no. I think it'd almost be easier because it's just about our connection. It's not about like, do we parent the same? My son's almost 20. He doesn't need a dad anymore. He's, he's perfectly, you know, I've had so many conversations with them.
I sent him to the EMDR specialist that we had on here recently and she said I got nothing. He was six years old. He does not remember that person other than the things they did. He does not have an emotional connection with that person, right? Which makes me sad. Yeah, that's hard. On one level it makes me sad, like I'm sure because Iceland and midnight Iceland Charis was only four they, he said.
I don't have emotional connection like he was almost angry at me because I kept saying don't you? I'm sure it's in there somewhere. I was digging and hoping it was going to come up with something he said. I don't I remember him doing things with me. I remember the watch.
I remember the this this and I remember the video games he played with me. But that's like looking at pictures and you remember things you did with people, but you don't feel anything connection like I still feel like it can.
He said something the other day and it just all the tears just started flowing and he was like, wow, that was fast and it but it is because I still miss, I'm still chasing that feeling that I used to have that safety, that connection that I see you, I I feel you, I see you, but I know you and still love you. It's not OK with me. I think if you've never had it, you don't know what you're missing.
Yeah. And you know, maybe that's, this is going to sound unkind, but maybe that's what some people that have had marriages that didn't work out, they thought that they had the deep connection and then they came to realize they didn't really have the connection that they thought they had. And that's why it ultimately didn't work out or everyone went their separate ways. But I mean, I agree with Laci. I think just to have it, you know, for any amount of time is a special thing.
And it's something that you've held onto beautifully in terms of honoring that. And it doesn't matter how much time has gone by. And yes, of course, like once you've had anything, you know, we've all joked about flying first class or, you know, whatever it is like now, I don't want to go back to coach. It's, it's hard to go back something that doesn't feel as special as what you've had in
the past. Yeah. And I, I think there are some people that don't need, I have learned this, which I thought was really interesting through the relationships with friends, guys, girls or whatever. There are some people that don't need that deep connection. They just don't. That's not a thing that they crave. I. Just need the bank account. Well, well. I wish I did. I wish that was enough. Because it would. It would be. I wish I could just let go of it all. Yeah. Or even take out the money
aspect. They just need a warm body. Someone to go do something fun with. Like someone who's fun, and not to discount having someone who's fun, but I really want to be seen. That's the thing that's been a thing for me my entire life. And so I will wait. That's why I'm probably going to be 500 before it ever happens again.
But that's what I was saying earlier about if we can change, you know, look, I was just having this conversation with my sister this morning about her daughter because her daughter has a boyfriend that's living in another city and she's always
sad. And, and my sister and I were talking this morning and I was like, look, the bottom line is my niece is living in the if only the what if I miss I want instead of what is. And that's where the suffering is. If you're always thinking about what you had and what you're missing, then you don't appreciate what is right now. And that's like not to bring up the later daters again, but you know, it's my favorite show right now and it's super fun to say later daters having the the
coach. I've said plenty later daters. Later daters, I gotta watch this shit today. You're gonna have to watch it. But Holly was not impressed. Holly was not impressed. At All comes down, just for the record. I'm a thumbs up, Holly's a
thumbs down. But, you know, rethinking what a relationship is going to look like in our 40s and 50s versus what it was going to look like at 19 or 20s or 30s with your first, you know, with, with our husbands, if you can let go of what you had not let go, But, you know, be grateful for what you had and recognize that maybe, you know, that that was a gift and then let life bring you the next thing. That's kind of what happened with Ryan.
I, I We've been dating for four years, but for three of those years, huh. Who? Who is? This person but for. Three years I I kept him, you know. We love Ryan Quiet. He's great, Holly. Knows him I like. Him under a rock for four. Years I did and part of it was that I was wanting something more similar to what I'd had. And part of it was that he was going through a divorce and dealing with his own stuff. And so I didn't feel safe and part of it was just inexperience
or whatever. But but once I decided to lean in fully, and so did he, it took both of us to decide to lean in. It's changed everything because I don't try to hold, even though the whole time on this podcast I'm like, Oh yeah, you know, don't hold, don't put your husband on a pedestal. There were issues, blah, blah, blah, blah. On some level I did. I put him on a pedestal. I put a relationship on a pedestal and I wanted the exact same thing. But you can't get that again.
I'll never have the history with anyone else that I had with my husband. I never will meet someone again at 19. I will never have babies with anyone else. Like that is a different relationship. So being able to let go of what I had before and and be present in what is in front of me and not that you settle but you rearrange what is, I don't know, important or something. Am I even making sense? I think that it's just, it's just a different life.
It's a different life situation. Am I making faces? Yes, you're totally making faces. You know what I'm saying though? Like it's not. It's not. The same. I think it's more about leaning, like you said, leaning into what you have, like what? What is my connection with this person? Like for me with Brendan, like it's not the same, but there's also like a lot of really good things about. It different things. You didn't have with friends. Yes, yes, and it's just a whole
new thing world compare. You can't try to. You go back and re. And the comparison is the danger in it. You can recreate. That's the perfect way to phrase it, though, Kira, you cannot recreate what you had. But just to wrap that up, I guess the message is if you're sitting in I want this.
And if only the and like again this morning when I was talking to my sister, talking about her daughter, it's like she's sitting in this idea of things would be so much better if I was in the same town as my boyfriend. Everything would be better. And I think as a widow, I will tell myself things would be so much better if Hunter were alive. This would have never happened if Hunter were alive. I don't know that like that's a lie that I'm telling myself. Like life would be so much
better if Hunter were alive. I don't know that, you know, not to take away from the amazing things that we had, but I have no idea what life would have been like. And to put that out there then makes it hard for other relationships or or or another life to to develop because I'm trying to. I'm living in the past again. Later daters the dating coach talked about ghost stories talked about ghost stories and like no and but it's super funny
saying if later daters you. Can you can't later daters, right? Later daters. Hashtag later daters. No one can relate to you if you're living in a past life. It's hard to live up to a dead guy, you know? After the dust settlement, it's now been many years. I can now see where there are some people that have qualities that I would have enjoyed more. Maybe like you said with Brendan earlier, you said there's some things that Brendan brings and I know I did not know Frank.
Have that are very different from what Frank and I had it doesn't mean it's better or worse. It's just different and I try to lean into those things and that's what makes our relationship special. But just talk about the past for a minute. I think that one thing I kind of learned, it was almost like something I had to teach myself as as I came through this, the
before and after. So before this traumatic car accident and then the after, it's like when you meet new people and this happens all the time. You that's part of who you are, that's part of your experience. So you want to find that balance between, hey, you know, this thing happened to me. This is, you know, this new man I'm with is not the father of my children because this, you know, he passed away and this is my history.
So it's like I'm always trying to find that balance of sharing your past, sharing your experience that brought you to where your circumstances now without boring people, right? Like you were saying, like nobody wants to get like entrenched in the tragedy of it all and the the what you know, what can't be changed and what came before.
But it's also I find it so tricky to explain my situation still to people when they first meet me or my kids or my fiance or his daughter, What is our situation? And I'm getting better at learning how to provide enough information to say like, this is the groundwork of like where, how we all ended up here. But at the end of the day, like, that's just life. Life is constantly changing.
Life is constantly evolving. You heard like, I mean, that's hard because you want to tell your story and then people are like, oh, but you just want to tell it. You don't want a reaction. That's why I have the widows Tourette's. It's like I want you to know. Like I met the new friends. Oh, you have some new friends? I was introducing Zach to that you would go to college with him that are from Austin and and you know, I'm talking to the moms.
I'm like, yeah, well, you know, his dad died seven years ago, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, it's just like, for me, it's just conversation. And they're like, oh, I'm so sorry. And you know, and I'm like, it's OK. I just want you to know. Last night I was with some people and we were doing we were having a fondue party and we were playing a game called Fondue Fond. Don't. It's. Just the 70s. Yes, it's a 70s swingers party back. To the 70s last.
Night swingers party fondue later daters. And anyway, and so we were playing fondue, fond don't. And I said fondue, fond don't. Would you skydive? And then everyone was like, fondue, fond don't, fondue fond don't. And I said fond don't 'cause my husband died, I was fondue. But then I was fond don't after my husband died and this girl goes, did he die skydiving? And I was like, Oh no, I'm sorry. I just like to let people know that he's dead.
Well, and part of it is that is that it, it has a way of attaching to weird things too. Yeah, if you any opportunity. I can get to tell people and by the way, it runs in my family, but I also will tell you it runs in my family because I got a text from my mom a couple days ago and she was like, why did I just tell a stranger at the park that your husband died? Because you're trying. Here's the thing. I think it's a very healthy thing. It's not easy. I do it all the time and I find
it draining. But you're trying to marry the past and the yeah, you're trying to recreate who you are now. Well, and I also, and I also keep going and I want people to know, hey, I've been through something. I may look all cheerful and Christmassy and my fishnet, but like, I'm heavy. I've got some darkness in me because. Heidi Whitney's Heavy but do You? Think I'm. Wearing some right now. Right now to talk about at dinner. OK, do it. Oh yeah, your. Story not juicy or anything.
A client came into the store, the boutique that I work in the other day. I came in because she wanted a piece of jewelry for her sister who's husband died in the Iron Man competition and she was buying a very special piece of jewelry with their initials. Very sweet. And it like made me kind of emotional but kind of got awkward for me because I'm at work and I wasn't going to say, oh, my husband died too. I can relate. But it was like. That's exactly what I would have
done. I know, but I'm like at work and this is, this is what why I'm talking bringing that. Yeah. I, I was like, I want to say something. And then she's like, yeah, you know, the funeral or or memorial or whatever's next week. And I went in the back. I had to like go, you know, in the backroom. I mean, the other girls were helping her. And. But did you have to go in the back because you needed to compose yourself like I? Was like, I just kind of walked.
I just went in the back kind of. And I was like, do I say something? Do not say something. Do I say, you know? Oh, this is my favorite thing my friends did for me at my husband's memorial. Like, it was just, like, my head was like spinning. Well, it's now it's awkward if I go out there and I say something. Yeah, my husband died. I'm sorry. Like, it was just like an awkward situation. I never said anything. She left not knowing. What's?
Your name, which I guess you're in a professional environment who know your story, didn't say, Oh yeah, you know our associate also. Well, I get that because that's Holly's story to tell, so they don't want to jump in. It's. Also too, you don't want to always make it about yourself. Either you don't. Know the The bottom line is is that at one point do you? There's lots of. People. Well, I'm learning. It's really I had an interesting conversation with my son about a particular topic.
Just just yesterday. I think women in particular, most women in particular like to talk to someone they like for you. It's why I didn't like therapy so much at first because like I didn't like her knowing all mine. I don't know anything about her. I needed to know something about her stuff. So because it's too vulnerable to go in there like it's. Cheers. So it was real fresh. It did. I mean, it had just happened. I didn't want to make it about me.
Like why did you assume that it's making it about you instead of saying I know what you're going through? It's a little bit awkward because the other girls I work with, we're all, we're all standing around and she's talking about, you know, I want to make this necklace like. I can see why you would feel that way, Holly, because some people want a connection. Like you see me and I've been there, and some people really don't want you to make it about
them. I mean, like I said, they had that in the conversation the other day. I don't. Think she was in the place yet for me to be like, oh, my husband died too. And I went to the back and I was thinking, oh, you know, my favorite thing that my friends did for Toby's memorial was this. And I I was going to come out and, like, offer that suggestion. But the moment the timing was, yeah. It was already. It was awkward and I just let it go. I think I probably would have
done what you did. A lot of times it's like you hear somebody say something like, Oh well, I blah, blah, blah. I'm like, I didn't really want to hear your story. I have a feeling a lot of people think that when I'm talking no. I and see I like that you do because I need that. I need someone to. Share. Theirs because I feel I feel exposed. If I'm the only one in the room that shares, I don't like it. And I would like to think that I can. Read the room.
I have a group of friends that I'm like an open book and I go home and I'm like, wow, I just shared my whole life with them and they didn't really share anything back. Is it cuz we were libras? I don't even know that I get the whole horoscope thing, but sometimes it is a thing. Do you think you have to read situation? I think Holly did the right thing, I think. She did too that. Woman's grief was so. Acute. Yeah, and she was probably still in shock and she just didn't even know what.
She was in shock, I could tell. She was coming in to try to get something to special for her sister. But you don't want to hijack the grief. Right. Oh, can we talk about that for a second? OK. And I know it's late and everybody needs to everybody needs to go home. But one of the things that came up recently on everybody think insiders what someone had posted. Have you, have you had any, has anyone else had any experience with people stealing your grief
or trying to one up your grief? And I thought that was so interesting. And in a way, have you guys, that's what you're kind of feeling. That's why you didn't say anything today is because you didn't want to one up her grief or make her feel like you were person. Many scenarios where you know, there's a grieving widow and then maybe the mother is like, well, I lost my son. You know, I lost a child. You lost a partner. You can go find another partner.
You can date again and you can't carry on. I lost my child, yeah. And I, I, I could see that scenario. And I've heard that from people where, you know, everyone just sees to make space for their loss, which is individual and not better or worse or harder or. You know right? No comparing. Yeah, it's just, but I could see how that could be, you know? Like my dad lost his wife of 66 years. There's a there. If I want to compare, I'd say I got 10, you got 66. Which sounds worse. I don't.
Know it depends, Yeah, right. I mean, the loss after having somebody by your side for 66 years, that loss can be very hard. But then at the same time only having tenure like you can't compare. You. Literally can't. Doing it because what I tried to tell my dad the other night, we had this long discussion and I think he heard me, which I was so grateful for that he listened. And I said, I said it minimizes my pain for you to say that you were young enough. Someone did say that to me one
time. You were young enough to meet someone new because I was only in my 40s when Oliver died. So you're young enough to meet someone new. And I said that isn't the point. Why do we feel the need to compare? Because all it does is minimizes someone's pain, I think. There's two different ways and
everything in life to approach. Like you can either identify and sit with someone and say I, you know, I can relate to how you're feeling because I've had a similar, I can empathize with you because I've had a similar loss. Or it becomes a competition, like mine's worse, yours worse, and that doesn't accomplish. Anything you know? Like that, that creates division instead of inclusion and. I have to go home. I know you do How?
Much had a long day of work. Before so before we leave, can we just quickly like how are the holidays for you this year, Holly at seven years in versus the first few years like give, give someone a little take on it and we'll just go down the line. I, I feel like it's better this year, although I'm much busier. I think it hits me on Christmas morning, so I'll let you know, OK. No, I, I mean, I, I feel I feel better this year than I have the past six years.
But I also think it's because I'm my boys are older. I got more going on, more distractions. Yeah. So all right, I get. That's all I got. I was definitely just devastated. First fear I could not wrap my head around trying to pull off all the joy and magic of Christmas with three school age kids and trying to recreate everything when I felt like just miserable and something. It's really sad. Not only, like, mentally and emotionally, but physically you were dealing with a lot, yeah.
I guess. I was in the beginning, yes. I had a couple of years of surgeries and things. Yeah, I know. But I was emotionally just, I, I dreaded, I dreaded Christmas, I dreaded doing all the things that we used to do that we used to look forward to. We did it as a family. So it was really just something I was getting through to create, you know, normalcy and try to create joy for the kids. But I'm sure at the end of the day, I wasn't pulling it off very well.
And they probably saw through some of that. But I did the best I could. And now after 10 years, things are so different. I've got grown adult children, some in college, some home. I've got a stepdaughter who's been incorporated into our lives. I've got a new partner. We actually have my parents and Brendan's parents joining us here in Austin from the DC area next week. And I think it's going to be
super fun. Actually, I'm kind of enjoying more the role of taking over the holiday from my mom, who always kind of put on. We were actually supposed to go there, but circumstances changed, you know, letting her kind of be the the ringleader of the festivities. I'm kind of enjoying being sort of in charge, especially because it's beyond the. Night. So what would you tell yourself? Like if if you could talk to yourself at year three or something, like what would you
say? I think I would just say like it's never going to be the same. You know, I those years with Frank and our kids as a family unit, they'll that'll never happen again, that that'll never be what that was. That special, special time with my husband and the father of my children is lost forever and we have amazing memories. But you've got to just kind of roll with the punches, honestly. I mean, some people's punches are worse than others.
Right. But you have to adapt and you have to try to bring joy into your home, no matter what it looks like and what the new scenario is. I'm just trying to like, still make it fun, still make it festive. And you do. I definitely have sad moments, though. I still do, you know, 10 years. We went to get the tree the other day and I don't know, I kind of came home.
I was kind of down just getting the tree, the stupid going out to the lot and remembering making Frank stand there and pull out every freaking tree so I could see. Turning it around and spinning it around and the kids kind of being impatient. And then I did it just with Brendan because we're busy. They were either at college or studying for exams. He and I went. He's pulling out the tree. He's getting irritated just like. Frank did. It was kind. Of funny, I was like, I guess
I'm the same. I'm still really. Picky about the tree? We always get the real tree right? That's a. Whole yeah, that's. We don't do the. I don't neither fake tree. But which I'm not against, it's just we're out on the lot. We were late this year. It was real Charlie Brown out there. I made him drive around. I was like, I want to go to every place in the city and real irritated. Thank God we found a pretty treaty and it's all good. Yeah. You just adapt.
That's life. And it's a it's a lot better now than it was in the beginning. The beginning was really, really, really hard. And for any listeners that are going through that, that's going to be the hardest time this this first few years. It'll get better. Lacey, what about you? It's interesting because all you're thinking about is your family, right? All I could think about was that I'm trying to make sure that he's OK. He was in first grade.
He was only two months into first grade, and now he's a sophomore in college, which is great. So. What would you tell yourself back then now? Like knowing what you know now, what would you have whispered to to you? I would tell anybody that's an audience get therapy so that the air mask is on you first so that you can give them what they need. Because if I had not had the therapy, I don't think I would have had the wherewithal to be able to. But it's, it's hard.
I mean, I heard it's, it's the most wonderful time of the year the other day. And when I was in Walgreens, I heard that and I thought, it's really not for me. My mother just died. My dad is sad and my husband's still dead. He's not coming back. And then I thought, OK, I've had, I've had enough time to four years of my mom's illness and all of that. I finally, and that's a big change. It's, it's I'm, I'm trying to look for the good and my son and I are having a good time together.
We're having fun conversations, we're cooking dinner together. So I'm trying to focus on those things. So really the message could could just be you're going to be OK, like you're going to survive this and your kid and you are going to have a good relation. We have a close relationship that's. Awesome. All right, on that note, we're going to end it. Come over and say goodbye, Kieran Holly. Happy holidays. Happy holidays, I guess they're not. Too long.
I'm sorry. Bye. If they're not happy, it will be happy at some point. Yeah. Keep going. You're. Stronger than you think you are. That's right, Holly, you got anything I don't? I mean, I hated, I hated in the beginning when people said happy holidays or Holly Jolly. Just going to say so Holly Jolly make the best of the season. Yeah. You're going to be OK. We love you. You're not alone. Bye. Bye. Bye.