Welcome to episode 275 of the Energy Talks podcast. I'm energy and climate journalist, Marcum Hislop. Today, Wednesday, February 28th, the Alberta government lifted its 7 month moratorium on wind, solar, and geothermal development while introducing a slew of new rules and regulations that will effectively hobble Canada's most renewable energy province. Yes, you heard that right. The epicenter of the Canadian oil and gas industry also leads the country in renewable energy.
Alberta installed 1 gigabyte sorry, gigawatt of wind and solar generating capacity in 2022 and was on its way to double that last year when premier Danielle Smith's conservative government pulled the plug. To dive into the details of today's announcement, I'm joined by Jason Wang, a senior analyst working on the Pembina Institute's elect electricity program. So welcome to the interview, Jason. Yeah.
Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me.
Well, it's good to have you here. And and before we get into the questions, I'm going to just let our listeners know that we're we're recording this sort of mid afternoon. By the end of the afternoon, I'll have a column out on this on this topic in which I will not argue, make an argument about the details that you and I will be discussing, rather I'm going to take the big picture approach and argue that Alberta has is acting like an incumbent. It's the you can see this in the oil and gas industry. You can see it in the, oh, the power sector.
The incumbent companies, their business models are being disrupted by new technologies, electrification of transportation in the case of the oil and gas or oil anyway, and and then wind and solar and battery storage on the in the power sector. Rather than adapt and and reengineer the grid and and do some of the things that, you know, the US is doing, Europe is doing, China is doing, This government has chose, basically, put up a shield. So that's what I'm gonna be arguing, folks, and you can read all about it when it's hot off the well, my keyboard, in just a few hours. Until then, Jason, let's talk about what the details of this. And the first thing I wanna talk about is the government requiring reclamation security for wind and solar projects.
So maybe give us the details.
Yeah. So, I mean, I wanna start off by saying too, the government in some ways didn't give many details today. You know, they announced a few new policies and some approaches, but, they're they're in general are more question marks, that I and many others have than than answers. So what they said on reclamation today was just that, reclamation will be required. Formally, it will need to go to the government or, if the developer in the, can show I can't remember the their exact word, but if they can show sufficient evidence that they are going to provide it to the landowner, then the Alberta Utilities Commission might be able to, consider that in lieu of, payment to government.
So anyways, there there's so many exceptions, and the the key thing is, regardless of how it's actually implemented, you know, we don't know if it's gonna be up front, if it's gonna need to be over time. Regardless of that, all of those approaches will be more than is required in many other sectors in Alberta, including the conventional oil and gas sector.
Oh, let's talk about that. Alert listeners will remember that last year, we published part 2 of the unethical oil series, which was looking at the conventional oil and gas industry in the US through the lens of the Alberta Energy Regulator, and lo and behold, what did we find? Well, just on the conventional side of the business, the companies had racked up a staggering 130 to a 150,000,000,000, that's with a big b, of unfunded environmental liabilities, and we talked about how you can go back to 1938 with the creation of the first oil and gas regulator in Alberta, and they grappled with the issue of security. When do you take security? The the at that ever since 1938, the prior the, Alberta government has always prioritized expansion and profitability of the industry and government revenues over environmental liabilities.
This is a new one, folks, so and and hypocritical. I mean, there's 2 standards here. They they don't take security, never have taken security, and won't take security ever for oil and gas, but here where the liabilities will be a fraction of oil and gases they're insisting on. I would imagine I I've seen I don't know how many, analysts, Jason, like yourself, point this out. But when Pembina does it, does the government listen?
I think, you know, I think you had my colleague, Janetta, on the show a a couple of episodes ago, talking about issues like this. And I think, you know, I can't remember if she mentioned, but I do wanna point out that estimates for conventional oil and gas liabilities in Alberta alone, are at least $60,000,000,000. That's what the auditor general has said, in their in their multiple reports saying that the Alberta Energy Regulator's not doing enough and, even its proposed reforms are not sufficient. There are estimates higher than 60,000,000,000, but, again, this this is what the official office of the auditor general is saying, 60 60,000,000,000. That's a 115 times more than estimated wind and solar liabilities.
So, you know, there there's a two orders of magnitude, difference here between the 2 sectors, and and the one sector now has rules, the other sector doesn't have rules. Today, during the press conference, the minister of affordability and utilities, Nathan Neudorf, was asked about this. And I believe his answer, as to, you know, if the government is going to tackle the oil and gas liabilities issue. He said that, I I believe the, that he will be looking forward to or that he will be looking to the regulator, the operator energy regulator energy regulator to, make recommendations. But, you know, I, like, I understand that's outside of, his portfolio.
That's more, perhaps in a different minister's file. But with the renewables moratorium and inquiry, you know, that was a government decision to say, we want to intervene. We want to provide guidance to the regulator. And, indeed, at the end, you know, they've made this the decisions. We don't even know what the regulator recommended to the government, and that report, you know, hasn't been released.
Right. Well, when they justified the moratorium, they fibbed all over the place about who asked for it. They claimed that the Alberta Utilities Commission asked for it. That wasn't the case. They claimed that the Rural Municipalities Association asked for it.
That wasn't the case. Then they claimed the Alberta electricity electrical system operator asked for it, and that wasn't the case. I mean, you know, there's so many fibs been told on this file already that it's hard to keep the the fibs straight without a program. But, anyway, let's go on to, agricultural lands. And look.
I mean, I get it. You know, the UCP is very strong in rural Alberta. Lots of landowners, lots of farmers, ranchers, who are concerned about having a, you know, wind turbine, quote, unquote, blight their landscape. But the a they want the government has instructed the AUC to take an agriculture first approach. What does that mean?
Yeah. So, I mean, what what they've said, you know, beyond that framing is just that renewable energy will be banned from class 1 and 2 land in Alberta, also the class 3 land that can be productive for certain crops. So to be honest, we we don't know what that last part means. We don't know what crops they're going to consider. We do know that renewables developers already have basically avoided class 1 and 2 land.
There barely is any class one land in Alberta, actually. So, you know, the developers have already been working with landowners to, you know, create projects that make sense. Right? And so solar projects are already on brownfields. And, what's been interesting is that, municipalities, of course, they want Zayn, but they've also been asking for the government to finish the regional land use planning rules.
Right? Those are the rules, and that's the approach that was supposed to provide clarity over all kinds of developments. And, you know, they, again, have sort of taken a unique approach to the renewable sector, in creating rules outside of that that approach. Right? And, you know, I wanna highlight that in terms of land use in Alberta, either on agricultural land or on Crown land and and, you know, the entire province, renewables wind and solar are just a very tiny fraction.
So, you know, we did some analysis, and we saw that conventional oil and gas across the province, just as one metric of comparison because, you know, there there's an, an outstanding well issue, but the conventional oil and gas is a 125 times, larger of a land user than current wind and solar. Right? And then there are gravel pits, golf courses, feedlots, irrigation canals, landfills, and residential, residences, of course. All of those are way larger land users than wind and solar. So
I I wanna put some numbers around that. There are about just under 465,000 wells in, in Alberta, and about 350, 360,000 of those, have still not are are still have equipment on them, on their lease. Then there's, 90,000 facilities, and the Alberta Energy Regulator doesn't even know how many of those are reclaimed or what shape they're in. It's it's their understanding of that ass asset class is pathetic. And then there's 440,000 kilometers of pipeline, mostly under the ground in Alberta, that has to be reclaimed.
And then there's all kinds of old pits and what have you that that aren't even included in any of these any of these calculation. And then and then we haven't talked about the oil sands yet. That's 9,000 square kilometers, if you can wrap your head around that number, of development in the most sensitive boreal forest pea and peaplands on the planet. And we're and, yeah, and that's another $150,000,000,000. Now the official numbers are much less than that because, I mean, who wants the who want what what bureaucrat is gonna stand up in front of a $150,000,000,000 number and and talk about that in front of the press.
Nobody. But, anyway, we that's grist for another conversation. So the oil and gas industry has had a huge effect on the land use and the environment in Alberta, and the renewable energy industry has had a little tiny impact, but guess who gets the the draconian rules. Okay. So, one of the things I okay.
So here's another question. I know you don't have an answer for this, Jason, but, I mean, this is illustrates the kind of work that the government does when it does these kinds of things. It says, the government's gonna establish tools, quote, unquote, tools to ensure native grasslands, irrigable, productive lands continue to be available for agriculture production. What tools, when, how is I mean, that's just what do you do with that?
Yeah. So, you know, I wanna point out, just a quick fact check if you will, Mark. Technically, the moratorium lifts, I guess, at the end of tomorrow, it hasn't been lifted yet, the nominal moratorium. And then on March 1st, the Alberta Utilities Commission is supposed to be able to proceed with their, their approvals process. But I think like you alluded to, you know, there there are no clear rules.
We don't know, you know, the answers to many of these things. And, you know, my expectation is on March 1st, the utilities commission isn't going to have enough information to be able to confidently proceed with their approvals, and developers certainly aren't going to know, aren't going to have enough information to proceed with their projects until, you know, probably later this year, whenever those details are fleshed out. So we're basically ending up with a moratorium in, in in all but name for the next couple of months. This week is not the end of this uncertainty for for developers.
You'll remember you'll recall my comments at the beginning of this interview where I said that the government very deliberately stuck a dagger in the heart of the renewables industry. Now it's going to come with another, dagger in a couple of couple of months, and then I expect there'll be more daggers after that. This is the gift that keeps on giving for the government and, well, and for energy journalists, I have to say. But the and we've got a few more other a few more a few other things that we wanna talk about. The the and I I hate to say change in rules because I should point out here, Mark Doran, who is an administrative land expert and, works with landowners in rural Alberta in their disputes with the Alberta Energy Regulator, has pointed out that in legislation, many of the things that the government is saying were already permitted.
Like, there was already, the legislative and regulatory ability to take security. The, the lands issue, was was dealt with. The there was so much of this that was covered already within existing legislation and regulations, and then the government comes along with its ham handed approach and and makes a bunch of vague promises, and no one knows how it's gonna all they've done is introduce uncertainty and uncertainty because we talked to you know, when the moratorium was was put in place 7 months ago, talk uncertainty kills investment, and there was about $5,000,000,000 or so of of projects, renewable projects in the queue that I don't see how those are going to to proceed. What's your take on that, Jason?
Yeah. So I'm not personally a renewable energy developer, but, you know, many have said they're already, looking at, or focusing their attention on other provinces. And now, basically, every province except Alberta and PEI is, you know, actively seeking renewable energy development, you know, along different timelines, but they all understand that, renewables are key to economic growth to, especially a future clean economy. And, you know, Alberta is standing out in the country right now and how it's approaching, renewables growth. We now have global commitments to triple renewables by 2030, And I think many Canadian jurisdictions are responding to that and and acting accordingly.
Right? They, like I said, recognize the investment potential. They recognize that renewables bring down the cost of electricity to consumers. That's a huge thing. We're working on some analysis actually that, has looked at what the impact was last year and preliminary results are that it saved Alberta households 100 per, or 100 of dollars over the course of the year on their electricity bills.
So, you know, it it it is strange. I think developers, are seeing demand, not just across the country, but across the world, and they're gonna go where projects, can be built quickly. Right? They're not gonna just park their, their dollars around waiting for rules to be clarified. They want to put that to work and get those investments, invested.
Oh, I I predicted the rules will never be clarified. This is meant to be the the government here has created a swamp, and the swamp is meant to to trap the developers and discourage them and so that they will go elsewhere. So I that's my take on this. But let's talk about viewscapes, and this gets into wind, turbine development projects. The buffer zones of a minimum of 35 kilometers to be established around protected areas and other, quote, unquote, pristine viewscapes as designated by the Alberta government.
Your colleague, Simon Dyer, was tweeting out that this would rule essentially take about 76% of of the land in the province out of consideration, and it would be the best land or the best best, wind and solar resources that would be affected. I I I the the premier's rhetoric about how this is going to actually stimulate the the renewables, It just I I have to say it makes me laugh when I read when I read the actual intent of the rules. So, anyway, what do we what do we make of the, the viewscape rule, Jason?
No. I mean, I think you summarized our our most of our responsibility, or our our views on this. There's like everything else today, more questions raised than answers. We don't know what, you know, pristine viewscapes mean. The minister actually said that himself.
There's no universal, definition of viewscapes. And, you know, judging by the press release, they're saying, there's there needs to be a buffer zone around protected protected areas. They they haven't actually specified what those mean, but from our preliminary analysis, yeah, that's up to 76% of Southern Alberta. You know, not not not quite all of it, but more than 2 more than 3 quarters rather. And, indeed, many of those are, are in, areas where renewable resources are are the best in the province.
I I think somebody asked the the minister if they've looked at the economic impact of these, of these new rules, and I think the minister said that they they hadn't done that analysis. So, you know, that, raises some questions for me of again, it's like, it's like in August last year. Was there consultation with the sector? Do these rules make sense? There were, in August, a 118 projects in the queue representing at least $33,000,000,000 of, of investment into the province.
How many of those projects are affected? You know, government doesn't seem to know. We're gonna try to crunch those numbers, but, I imagine if it does cover, or if 76% of Alberta's Southern Alberta's land is prohibiting, renewable at the moment, it's gonna affect a lot of those projects in the queue.
I'll tell you how I woulda handled the economic development impact analysis of of these project. I woulda called up professor Kent Fellows at the University of Calgary and said, hey, Kent. If you take an hour and do and run this through your input output model, I'll buy you lunch next week. I mean, this is this government can't even do that kind of simple analysis. There are lots of economists.
Andrew Leach at the University of Alberta. These these folks do this kind of analysis, you know, while they're brushing their teeth in the morning. It's just it's pretty simple stuff, and this government can't wrap its head around this enough to get it it's how you how do you base changes in policy and presumably then the regulations that flow out of that policy without analysis. If you don't do modeling, if you don't do the kind of stuff we're talking about, you know, no government minister should ever go to a press conferences and say, I don't know. We haven't done that work yet.
You know, the the level of I I I really need to say this. The level of incompetence from Nate Neudorf and the premier and premier Smith on this file is staggering to the point of, well, it makes I've I've laughed a couple of times in this interview, and I I it's a wonder I don't I haven't spent the whole, interview laughing. It's just it's it's comical. But, anyway, that's you're here as a seeing a serious analyst, not comic relief. So let's go on to something serious.
Let's talk about the municipalities.
And Actually, Markham, can I just say,
Yeah? Sure.
I I I I think this government, you know, they work with their ministry and, you know, I to my understanding, they they they do analysis. On this one, I don't know why there wasn't an economic analysis or economic impact analysis, but the a consistent theme on this file has been that, even if government has had consultation or has done analysis, they haven't released it. So, you know, the AUC the AUC, the utilities commission, their module a inquiry that was looking at the questions, that the announcement today addressed. That report was submitted, at at least a month ago. We're not actually sure when, but, we don't know if that report is going to be released.
We don't know if the minister, has any intention of that. That report's supposed to, you know, compile everything that the AUC, the commission heard. And, you know, like, previously analysis on the clean electricity regulations, their potential impact, there are reports that we know exist, but have never seen the light of day.
Just for our American friends, we should make a distinction here. Under the Westminster system that that is the basis of Canadian government, the the civil service stays the same. The the party that wins the election forms the government. And so every 4 years when you have an election, you have a new government. So when I say the government is incompetent and can't do this basic work, I don't mean the civil servants.
I don't mean the folks in the department of energy or at the Alberta, utilities commission or at ASO or any of those those those folks. I mean, the elected officials and their advisers and staff because we see this over and over. And you just you just gave us some more examples, and there are many more that we could we could we could talk about. But it's time to move on. Okay. So the municipalities, how are they affected by this?
So the government today said that municipalities, they're going to to grant automatic standing to in decision making and, or into the hearings that the commission holds. And, you know, our our view on that is it makes sense to municipalities, should be able to to comment on, you know, projects that are going up in their in their regions. What has been surprising, though, still is, like I said earlier, there's a process that was supposed to be in place or the sorry. That that is nominally in place that was supposed to have been carried out that would have worked with municipalities, landowners, driven by the province to to to to do land use planning, to do zoning, and figure out where, you know, what the collective interest was, where we don't want certain types of projects, whether that's, energy related or other kinds of development. You know, in the last couple of years, the biggest driver of, agricultural land loss has been residential, expansion, right, both rural and urban.
So, you know, I I think if Alberta is concerned about agricultural issues, right, then the the the issue doesn't lie with just energy development. Alberta should be taking a holistic approach to answering or looking at how we answer that question.
There's another issue with about municipalities, and that is the amount of tax revenue that municipalities generate. So at with the decline of the oil and gas industry, the the renewables, sector was generating over I think it was $277,000,000 a year, but I could be wrong in that. But I'm pretty sure it was over 200,000,000. Anyway, it was just it it makes up a significant portion of a number of of counties annual budget, and that's now put in jeopardy. Or it at the very least, other municipalities won't get to enjoy those kinds of revenues and for which they then use to provide services, you know, like roads and and what have you, for their for their, for their taxpayers.
So that what is your do you have an opinion on the extent to which these rule changes will affect the ability of municipalities to grow the the tax revenue that comes from wind and solar projects.
Yeah. So just, comment on the 277,000,000. I think, that's potentially based on analysis from the business renewables center. And I think what they were looking at is, if proposed, renewable energy projects were built, then by 2028, that's that's how much tax revenue would go to, I think, yeah, 33 different municipalities, in that year. And that would, that would mean, you know, a couple of municipalities.
I I think 8 would have at least half of their operating revenues come from, or or they'd be able to cover half of their current operating, revenues from just renewable energy. So I I think that's substantial. Many municipalities have said that they want renewable energy development for infrastructure, like you said, roads, hockey arenas, other things. Municipalities have been, I think, asking for for, for more provincial support in many forms, related to to revenues and operations and infrastructure. So I think renewable energy was was, was and has been, I guess, something that they've been looking forward to.
Right? Because it's it's consistent. It's not like oil and gas tax revenues, many of which of which are unpaid and which are are quite cyclical. Yeah. I I think municipalities certainly wanted, or many municipalities wanted more saying this, but I also wanna note, specifically, a couple of municipalities were against the moratorium when it was announced in in August.
They spoke out and said, this is not the right approach. They want to be able to develop projects, and the moratorium was only hurting, their project development and hurting potential investors in their counties. Right?
Right. Well, let's wrap up this, this conversation with by talking about transmission regulation. Now it says here that the renewable projects should expect changes in how transmission costs are allocated. What basically, what that means is they're gonna shift some of the transmission costs over to renewable energy projects or more of them. Now I wanna provide some some important context for this.
A couple of years ago, AESO released the study, that's the Alberta electricity system operator, And they had been out, in the field talking to stakeholders since 2018. And the biggest issue that came that was included in that report was the fact that they're worried big industrial and commercial projects will self generate primarily with solar. And then they'll get off the grid, and then the remaining grid users will have to pay higher fees, to make up for the loss. And remember that in Alberta, it's very different. 86% of electricity use is industrial, commercial, and business.
Only only 14% is residential. So the the government is signaling to any renewable project here that we we're not gonna tell you how much it's gonna go up, but we are gonna tell you that if you decide to go ahead with a solar or wind project, boy, you're gonna pay more. And I you know, you wanna talk about uncertainty. Putting a chill on investment, that's exactly the kind of uncertainty that we're talking about.
Yeah. I think the changing the transmission regulation and, shifting those costs around could have tremendous impact on project development. Many developers will probably look at that and and say, it's it's too uncertain. We don't know what the government is actually going to do, with with that regulation. Right?
So, it's another area where we're we're seeking certainty. I wanna say on this, historically, you know, coal plants, gas plants, all these facilities we've built transmission to, and they haven't been the ones to pay for transmission, in the province. So that's just not how our market is designed. And, you know, I'd say you could talk to many economists, to, and and they'll have differing opinions about what the optimal economic market setup is, but, a lot of thought went into how Alberta's market is set up. And, it it was, it was set up in a way that, generators or sorry.
Load should be, or users of electricity should be the ones that, pay. And, you know, the the government is flipping its flipping this on its head and saying we should take a completely different approach. And we don't know if there has been analysis on what this means, but we do know that, many developers see this as a risk. I think on transmission, the main challenge that I've seen is, Alberta now is starting to see congestion. We are starting to see issues of transmission within the province, but all of these issues stem from, in my view, insufficient planning over the last decade or even more.
If we had, or taken approaches like Texas or South Africa or in the Philippines and building transmission to areas of high renewable potential, many of the current challenges that we currently see could have been avoided.
Okay. I can't let you go yet. Now you've you've opened that Pandora's box. I wanna talk about an interview I did a couple weeks ago with, Gerhard Schlage, who is the chief technology officer for Hitachi Energy. Gerhard is an old, power sector hand, and he's worked in on with, utilities and regulators all over the world.
And one of the things that we talked about was renewables actually can strengthen the grid. But when you, in the modern grid, it's being completely transformed and revolutionized by new technologies. Mhmm. So we're talking about new digital technologies. We're talking about artificial intelligence.
We're talking about grid enhancing technologies that allow you to to send 2 or 3 times the amount of power over an existing line. We're talking about wind and solar, inverter based resources, and we're talking about storage. We're maybe gonna have vehicles. This is amounts to a revolution. And when you, utilities is particularly in the US, are grappling with this right now because they have a creaky old grid, and and, they know what needs to be decarbonized in there.
So they're they're doing a lot of the more work than we've had to do up here in Canada. But the lesson to be learned is that wind and solar are not drop in replacements for thermal power for thermal plants, coal and gas. When you get up to a certain percentage, and Alberta is already there at 14% wind and solar in its fuel mix, you have to begin reengineering the grid. You have to begin making these changes. You need more storage.
You need more time of use rates. You do need to reform your market. You oh, there's a whole long list of stuff that Garrett Hart and I talk about. Alberta has steadfastly refused to do this. It has not embarked on a planning process, and it's not just the UCP.
They're the sort of the worst, but it didn't happen under the NDP from 2015 to 2019. It didn't happen under the PCs. There has so we how are we how is Alberta going to plan, implement, and have a modern grid, clean, low cost, reliable, if it doesn't do any planning whatsoever. It gets exactly what it has now, which is chaos. It's utter chaos in Alberta around.
You've got economic withholding by the big utility companies. You now have this hodgepodge or whatever that we wanna call this renewables. We've got no support for geothermal, you know, at the provincial level. It is just, it's it's awful. At the very same time, we're electrifying the the national economy, and we're switching over to electric vehicles and heat pumps and electric industrial processes.
Alberta can't get its electrical act together. This is a tragedy, and it's it's biting Alberta and the behind already, and it's only gonna be leaving more teeth marks, and more serious teeth marks in the future. So, anyway, that's my rant. Jason, I'll let we'll close off the interview. We should at least give you a chance to respond.
No. I appreciate that. I think, there are some steps that the government should take that, you know, in my view, are are quite, quite low regrets, quite obvious. The government has now said they have a commitment to net 0 by 2050. We haven't actually seen many details from them on what that is gonna mean, but they should, explicitly give that to the system operator and the utilities commission, the regulator, as a mandate because the professionals, in those organizations, you know, they've been doing this for years.
They they, you know, they they know these systems. They talk to peers in jurisdictions that have more renewables than us. They just need to be given that that mandate clearly. And, you know, they can figure out all the engineering that, you know, it goes way over my head on, like, how wind turbines can help maintain inertia on the system, how, you know, wind and solar can become grid forming technologies and help us with black starts, right, or or other types of system reliability issues. The the professionals, you know, they they know how to tackle this.
They talk to their peers that have gone through this already. They just need to be given, that that mandate to actually pursue this. So, I hope the government of Alberta, you know, acts on their, what is it called, the emission reductions and energy development plan, and whatever of their commitments. Like, if they said 2050 is doable, fine. Tell your regulator, tell your system operator, let's get to work. They haven't done that yet.
Well, Jason, I have to say, I I have called the, the emissions reduction energy development plan a oil and gas marketing plan, not a climate plan as the the premier. The and this is more indicative of the the chaos that surrounds it is not even a plan. It's basically a 50 page brochure of all the thing wonderful things that Alberta has done and all the wonderful things that Alberta plans to do and all the wonderful things that will happen if we only put more LNG plants on the West Coast and ship Alberta natural gas out there on, you know, and how that'll reduce emissions in China. It's it's a fantasy. It's it's an utter fantasy.
And I you're you're an analyst, and I and you're you're being very patient with my rants here because this you know, I don't expect you to respond this way. But I have to communicate to my listeners, especially those who weren't, you know, that familiar with Alberta, but it may be in particular the Albertans who listen to this because we have a fair audience there. This is chaos. It is nuts, and it's only getting nuttier. And this is happening at the worst possible time as the global energy transition accelerates.
This is the bad the wrong time to be incompetent, which is the government, not the bureaucrats, not the professionals running the grid, but to be very clear about that. It's the government that's incompetent. Anyway, you've you've been a great sport, Jason. You put up with me and my ranting, so thank you very much. I appreciate you, coming on the show.
Yeah. Thanks again for having me.