We acknowledged the traditional custodians of the land.
We're recording on today.
I never get it to men older women and they come up and they go, are you with mother? And I say yes, like could you look like the nanny or you look like the hell?
Oh my god, Hello, and welcome back to eat, sleep, shit repeat in the podcast all about the madness that is motherhood and everything in between. It's quite an unhinged time, but it's a bloody jolly time. I am Kelly McCarron, I'm Kyrisels and we are thrilled to be back in your ears for another wild week.
In case you missed it, last week, we had a little bit of a giggle chuckle. We were a gaggle of gigglers, if you will, about all the things I swear we'd weird, Holy moly, we'd never do before having kids, so we absolutely did do after we have them. And my neck is still hurting from.
All that flash.
Well, this week we're taking a little bit more of a serious turn. We're exploring the intricacies of race, biracial and multiracial babies, how to ensure that they're connected to their culture in a world that is largely whitewashed.
Both Key and our lovely shitter Juliet will be chatting through their experiences. But first it is my turn. Yes, it is for peak and Hit. My hit is that I'm extremely.
Overwhelmed at the moment.
And my problem is that instead of I think a lot of people do this, Instead of actually getting through my to do list when I'm overwhelmed, I procrastinate, Oh yeah, class, And I sit there and I watch below Deck, and I play Candy Crush on my phone or Block Blast, or I do my puzzle and I just procrastinate and I do it all the time at the moment because I'm so overwhelmed, and then that makes me more stressed and overwhelmed.
About my to do list.
And I'm not that busy, and I'm so aware of my privilege, like I've got one kid, I work for myself. I'm not that busy. But it's just the mountain of crap, like just the top of my mind of the things that I have to do.
Let me run you through them.
No feelure like there's a bunch of new furniture that it's arriving at the moment.
So I need to get rid of other furniture.
Otherwise we're going to be in a horder's house where there's just furniture on top of furniture.
And yeah, weirdly I can relate. You actually can relate to that.
At the moment, I'm overdue for a skin check. And when you start like wigging out shout out to Keys' the pod about these things, then you're like you spiral and you're like, oh my god, I'm dying of skin cancer.
Yeah, and on top of a brain aneurysm.
So I'm like, oh my god, I'm so overdue for my skin check. And I also need to go see my psychologist again. Plus I need to make an appointment for my psychiatrist. These are all very expensive as well. I haven't been to the dentist for a few years, and I've got a really sore jaw.
I reckon, you've got a cavity. That's great, too low.
Great, that's great. So I need to make an appointment for the dentist. When am I supposed to fit all of these appointments in. I've got thirty different videos to edit. I've got so much content that I just don't have time to edit. I need to go get my uterus scanned again. I'm overdue with that, so then once again spiral into that. Well, it must be a big old tumor. In the time that it's taken me to waste time and not get the new scan, it's turned from a
cyst to a tumor. That's how my brain works, of course, because health anxiety hyper contriact. It's probably just another cyst and also grows. I don't want to have be inserted I know, at all, let alone by a random and scan place. Yeah, so those things are on my mind, like Lenny constantly being sick. We've had chest infections. There's a fine apparently I ran a red light. I did not run a red light. The photos clearly show another car. All of these things collectively don't take time. I'm just
so overwhelmed. Let alone, I haven't done my baths, I haven't done my tax so my pit is just very overwhelmed. All my own fault, and I'm a procrastinator.
But can I just say, we weren't meant to have this many things to do. Life has become very overwhelming, very busy, very busy, very overwhelming, and I just actually don't think that we were meant to be this busy lit We definitely.
And this is on top of trying to maintain a social life, trying to go to the gym.
Twice a week, trying to run a business.
Trying to run a business, trying to make sure income's coming in, trying to entertain your child.
Like, there's just a lot. So I think it's really relatable. I'm seeing me right now, mirror.
Yeah, you're not a procrastinator though, but you're very overwhelmed.
Don't ever download a game onto your phone.
If anyone does have a tangible hack for me, or if you're also a big procrastinator and get overwhelmed and you've got like a tangible hack, not delete all the games off your phone, okay, because they I also enjoy them.
I saw this method. Basically, it said, like set your day up and allocate a certain amount of time to each activity or each item on your checklist that you need to do, and do that item for that amount of time and you stop, right, and then you move on to the next thing. Now. Then that then informs your to do list for the next day, right. But the trick is is that you chip off a little bit of each task. In some cases you can do
all of it in one go. In some cases you get halfway through, but then the overwhelm is less because you are getting through a lot of things on your checklist in some capacity, maybe not one hundred percent, but things are going down. And that to me felt like, Okay, that could be good, Like because you know what happens, you do something in the morning and you blow out for the rest of the day. It's like, no, no, no, you do something for a certain amount of time.
If something's really urgent, when you have to finish it.
Well, then I think obviously there are exceptions to the rule, right, if something is urgent, you have to get that done first. Yes, But if we're talking about scheduling appointments, you can do half an hour schedule your dentist in yeah. Yeah, So you just say I'm going to do half an hour of calls to schedule and all my appointments done.
I really like that the way that my brain works. I'd be like, okay, here you go, here's half an hour where you've got to like make all your scheduling things. So I'd pick up my phone and I'd open the caller thing to call the doctor or whatever, and then I'd be like, oh, fuck, five people called me s they didn't return one call.
Oh, I'm just going to text them.
Then I open my messages and I'm like, oh, three hundred text messages, and then shit, what are my email situations like? And then I'm going to open my email and then I'm going to get distracted by oh my god, I haven't posted anything on Insta for the like, and then the half an hour's up and I'm like, you didn't book one appointment, sis.
But I think you have to catch yourself in those moments and not let yourself switch tasks.
It's just about Yeah.
I think with a bit of work, it could work for you. What is your peak?
Then? My peak is so superficial. Oh I've been shopping a lot lately.
Ah, I love it. I love it, and I.
Just want to give a shout out to shopping.
I know that you know, things aren't supposed to make us happy, no, but my golly do they.
I love to shop.
I love things.
Some people are more into things and stuff than other people.
I love stuff.
I love things like little treats and all of that crap that is now like trendy. But I'm like, no, No, I've just done that my whole life, Like I really enjoy purchasing things, so I'm feeling very joyful at the moment as things are arriving that I bought in like a scramble for end of year sales, and.
Oh yeah, I don't buy anything in the sales. I'm so dry.
It's silly.
And I just sometimes really love how unhinged I am and I just do not care. Yeah, and it bothers other people so much more than it bothers me, Like it's your money. I was shopping and I bought this dress and the lady was like, what's the occasion for, because it is an occasion dress, and I was like, oh, no occasion, it's just you know, good price. But I actually am building my summer holiday capsual wardrobe, like for
all of my outfits. She goes, oh, where are you going, and I'm like, oh, no, I can't get anything booked, and she just looked at me like I was alien. And then I'm like, the next day, I'm sending key pictures of Lenny's little summer holiday. It's flat light, matching hat and nice shirt, all with those shorts and overalls like all of these things are arriving, and he's like, I think you need to book a holiday.
But I've also just.
Been ordering furniture, and there's just I've been spending a bit of money. Obviously, this is coming from a very privileged position in a time where there is a cost of living crisis, and it wasn't a great financial year for me last year. But the reason why we work is not just to pay for rent or mortgage or food.
It is to be able to enjoy things. I've been buying furniture and the little So it's just a reminder that if you can, like, unless you're sort of just making ends meat, money is there to spend and enjoy.
Yeah, Like, you know what I do. I buy fancy stuff at the supermarket if I want to feel it woe. I buy low pa but organic, free range eggs.
Oh yeah, fancy.
Yeah, I'm buying serena tuna. Okay, that's expensive, Okay, Okay, So those are how I like to treat myself in my every day It's.
Like, that's like a lot less unhinged than me splashing hundreds of dollars dresses that I don't actually have a purpose to wear them anyway.
Shopping shop to your drop go around.
So today we are talking about raising biracial or multi racial babies in Australia. It's something that we briefly touched on in a Q and A that we did towards the end of last year or beginning of the year I forget, and something that is becoming more kind of on my radar as Rue gets older.
It is one of those topics that we always do get questions about, and not as much as some other topics. But I think that this is a really important episode. So even if you're not bi racial, I think that you need to listen to this episode because it's going to help you understand different things definitely people with biracial kids as well are going through. And also make sure that you're not using different microaggresses in your language.
Definitely we can go through that sort of thing.
Yeah, definitely. Well, when I was doing a bit of research for this, I came across two reasons why I think the topic is actually really important that we talk about on the pod. And I think a large majority of white people don't really understand why this might be a big deal to them personally.
I don't think a lot of white people realize how bad racism is in Australia. Yeah, because I think that a lot of people think of racism as the most extreme version of racism or within that sort of.
Orbit.
But racism is a spectrum with everything, and there are some things that are minor, but they're still microaggressions and they still have a long term impact on people of color. And we also need to listen to people of color when they're saying, no, Australians is still really racist, Australia is so racist. Listen to them rather than going oh, no, we're not.
Yeah.
I'll never forget this one dude, he was like running a stall in Spain and he said he was like, oh, I lived in Australia for a while, and we were like, oh, what did you think? He was actually living in Brisbane. Funnily enough, and he said, oh I had to leave. It was the most racist place I've ever been to.
Yeah.
I did not expect that response, because most of the time when you speak that, oh azi, I don't know why he's American, he's not. It was Spanish, but like Australians is so friendly or it's so nice there.
No.
No, he was like I hated it. I had to leave.
Yeah, it's really interesting and it is really true, and I think it's definitely because of kind of how our country started, how far away we are, the different people that have immigrated here. I just think that we're a little bit behind, and also just exposure, Like, yeah, I think it's getting better, but there's still a lot to talk about. So I came across this really great article that was written a couple of years ago by a former colleague. Her name is Nama Winston, and she wrote
this for the ABC. It was called teaching Biracial Kids to be Proud of their Heritage, and in it she talks to other biracial and multiracial Australians the why because constantly explaining your identity feels exhausting. It's laborious to always have to explain yourself and the intricacies of your heritage to others just so that they can quote unquote placed you.
And sometimes the answer isn't always good enough. Like I think I may have told you the story of a stranger who had never met that came up to meet the art gallery in Sydney. I was there to look at the Archer Bold and I was with my godmother and we were towards the end of the exhibition and this man, white man in his fifties comes up to me. Haven't spoken to him at all. That's weird as well, it's very weird. And so he said to me, oh, what's your heritage? And I said, I'm black and i'm
might and he said what kind of black? And I said, well, I'm African American and he said, no, you look more like a Torres Stralia island. At the hair. You definitely look more Torri Australia.
Then, Stuart, you must know better than me where I'm from, exactly. And I just also, what is his name Stewart because she sounds like a boomer. Yeah, bit of a racist dad name. No offense to any Stuarts.
No, I've got a friend called Steward's okay, great, But in that moment, like anything you say sometimes just won't even be enough for someone. So it's like, why are you asking me if you've already predetermined the answer? And what I say Torres straight ilean exactly. And it's just as very much a sense of being othered. Yeah, like you know, it's just never good enough.
It's just literally looking at one thing and making a assumption exactly, but it's stupid assumption.
And the second thing that I got from this article was the direct result of constantly being questioned about your heritage. So NAMA rights, many biracial and multi racial people struggle with a perceived need to explain or even defend their identity like I did. Feeling inauthentic in some part of your heritage has been informally called racial imposter syndrome. For some of these feelings emerge from an early age and
continue into adulthood. So my hope in having this conversation today on the pod is that we shed a little bit of light on this so that collectively we can all contribute to instilling pride amongst our biracial and multiracial kids that we are raising and that live in our communities.
On that note, how did you find growing up? About how hard you found it? You were raised by your grandparents. They were obviously from a completely different generation and of white heritage, So how did they guide you and how did that impact on you?
Yeah? Well, they didn't know how to like aunt me up on my heritage, right because they weren't from that heritage and they were from a different generation. I never felt bad or different because of my appearance or anything like that, or embarrassed of who I was, because our family was quite a multi cultural family, and that my
mom's brother, so my uncle, so my mum's white. My uncle married my aunt who was Samoan, and I spent a lot of time with her and her three girls growing up when we lived in New Zealand, and she was just always so proud about being Somemoan and I just had that. I guess I had that role model in her, and so I never felt bad about it. It was never a weird thing. But also where I lived in you, New Zealand was such a melting pot, like I lived in the city in Wellington, and New Zealand
super multicultural and diverse. I didn't stick out at all, like it was so normal. But I think really where a lot of my insecurity around my identity or my cultural identity came into play was when my grandparents retired and they made a decision to move to Australia, and because I was living with them, it meant that I also had to move to Australia.
So and they didn't move to Sydney or Melbourne.
No, Brisbane, Australia. And it wasn't even Brisbane the city, like it was a suburb. Yes, So it was like noticeably different. It was a really white, suburban Australian.
Place like soundthing where I grew up exactly, And I just was.
Very confused even walking down the street being in the city of Brisbane. I was like, where is the cultural diversity? It was so confusing as a young person, and then suddenly, all of a sudden, I just felt very different yep from everyone else.
Which wouldn't have been nice at all.
No, I mean, and it's when you're already questioning who you are as.
A person, so you're a teenager, yeah, well I just have enough angst without having to deal with that.
Yeah. It was a really trying time, and I think just the more older I got, it was just more, you know, different questions that would come up.
You know.
It was already feeling so different because my grandparents were raising me and my mum wasn't around, and I felt like I always had to kind of answer those questions. But then it was also like, well why are you black? Yeah, if your grandparents are why And it's like, so.
I'm thinking about that mean girl scene, but why are you wait so far from Africa?
Why are you wait? Oh my god, Karen, you can't just ask people why they're white exactly. You can't ask someone no why they're black. And it's really difficult because again, asking a kid to give you all the answers.
It's like we.
Shouldn't be asking children to explain themselves, especially about things that are actually really personal, Like excuse me if I don't want to stand there and be interrogated about my historical because.
I've got a different skin color and hair.
And also, like I get it, you're curious wonder in your heads, Like normal things need to be said out loud, especially about something that's who I am. You can compliment me, sure, if you need to compliment me, but I don't need to be interrogated. And I think that's what is obviously front of mind when I'm thinking about raising Roe as well.
Yeah, and it's quite funny that you say that it is front of mind because that's what you're thinking, because then you assume, my guess that everyone's thinking now, because recently I asked someone what their background was and he went into like I grew up here and then moved here and then but I've been here for fifteen years or whatever.
And I was like, I meant, like with work, but oh.
Great, Okay. He obviously gets asked that all the time.
Yeah, but I was just so funny because yeah, it was obviously the thing that.
He and he was like like, totally funny.
It was just like olah blah blah, grubb your butt. But I sort of meant, how long have you been doing this? Like what's your work background? Yeah, that was my fault. Clearly, I didn't articulate enough. It's just it's quite funny because I guess the assumption is is that's what a white person must always mean if they're asking right exactly.
And I think that that proves the point of just like what happened to say, Yeah, how kind of textbook we get without answers? And look, I get it in some ways because sometimes it's like when someone says, what school did you go to?
Yeah?
I still don't understand that.
No, but like it's a question, right, and I get.
You're just trying to make conversations sometimes.
Exactly, and I get the innocence behind it. It's like, Okay, I'm talking to this person, I don't know much about them. How am I going to find out more about them? And just I get it, like there's an innocence and that for sure, but.
Then don't ever push back on that and try to argue with the person I'm saying, Like, if someone asks you where you're from, I'm from Australia. I did grow up in New Zealand lived in York for a while.
Australian.
Though, we don't need to be like, but why are you black? But why?
And also sure you're not Torres Strait Islands, Like.
I'm not gorgeous, but I'm not.
Like it's just like, why are you arguing about where I'm from?
Exactly?
Talk to me about Rue?
How has your experience growing up in Brisbane impact on how you're going to raise her? And we've touched on the fact that you only find verse toys and books, but what about the things or interactions that are out of your control? Because for anyone playing along at home, Rue is white presenting.
Yeah, yeah she is. She's very fair, blue eyes, I say, blonde hair, but her hair's brown.
I think it's like a golden in between custle.
What whites. People call melsy blonde.
Or light brown, light brown, like brown massy. It's not mousie. It's very rich looking.
Oh thank you. I don't know why I feel like I grew up myself. I well, I think that the first hurdle that I'm going to face in raising her is like her exposure in community and like what she's going to see on a day to day basis. We've already spoken you and I at length about how jealous I am of Lenny and the fact that his daycare is so diverse and he's like one of the only white people. So I feel like, for me, that's kind
of top of my list. So when we were trying to buy in the next twelve to twenty four months, so a lot of consideration and where we're going to buy is being put into where can we go? That's a little bit more diverse as.
Well, though, because in Sydney, I think Melbourne's a little bit better. But in Sydney there's lots of pockets, Yeah, and people sort of like stick to their culture.
Yeah, it's still really siloed.
It's very siloed.
Whereas there are some areas like where I live, where it's just like a big pot, a big stew of all different types of melting pot, all different types of people. And I also though understand the one hand, you don't want things too siloed, but on the other hand, you don't ever want to be the only one or because then you grow up as Key did. And I don't
know if this is relevant because it's not race. But in the book that I was talking about last week that changed my life, The Nightingale, skip ahead thirty seconds if you haven't read it yet and you're keen, there's a little boy Ari, who one of the protagonists actually saved him and pretended it was her son because his mother.
Was killed because she was Jewish.
And then bah bah and towards the end of the book, Ari, even though he's been raised now as her son, he can't even remember that he wasn't he gets taken off her by the Jewish community.
But the way that the Rabbi worded.
It to her was, there's not many of us left, and I want Ari to be brought up in a Jewish community around by the Jewish people. And that actually I've never thought about it from that perspective before.
Because you lose culture, and that's the thing.
And I guess that's how why you want to surround ru with more people apart from yourself, yeah, that are black or from different cultures, because you don't want her to just be around.
White culture and I don't as white culture.
There is much, and I don't want her.
I sure can't dance.
That's well. My fear is that someone's going to one day be like, why is your mum black? You know? But I feel like that will be less of a question, or perhaps that question may be delayed a little bit more if she is in a more diverse area where lots of people's parents are different, different, there's mixed races, multi races, like maybe I can delay that a little bit. So it's not so.
I do think that if you were in a different sort of area, it wouldn't be a question.
Yeah, you're right, because.
No one cares, or no one would look at anyone's parent and be like, oh yeah, but it's hard because you're also that's where your life is at the moment.
And where all of our friends are. But the other thing I'm also kind of coming up against is that her experience will be different to mine, and that she is kind of white presenting.
As you've said before, you do want to raise her as a black girl.
I do because that is part of her heritage, and I know that by looking at her, the assumption will be that she is only of one ethnicity. So I need to really teach her that she is black and she is white. But society will view you as white, and people will say things around you because they don't realize and it's going to be a burden that you're not a burden, but it's going to be that extra emotional labor that you are going to have to endure
as the daughter of a woman of color. Like that's just kind of how it is.
For anyone who doesn't understand what key means. I'll liken it to if you have a fairly old school parent or grandparent in your life who makes comments all the time and you just sit there thinking, do I take on the mental load of educating them and explaining to them why what they just said is completely offensive? Or do I just let it slide because I can't be fucked having that conversation right now exactly that constantly.
Constantly, and some days you some days you can just let it go because you're like.
I can't be bothered, would say, that's not the hill I want to die today, just in terms of I can't be bothered.
But some days you're like fuck in which someone says something the undertone of it, You're just like, that is not okay. And it still happens today, and it happens all the time with Rue and situations.
Could you give some examples, because as a very ignorant person, it shocks me when you tell me things like this. And the only time I've ever witnessed it is that time that we went to service New South Wales.
Oh, I know, and I'm still not one hundred.
Percent sure if that was racial motivated, but it felt like it. It felt like it, yes, And it was the first time that I've ever witnessed someone be awful yeah to another person for no apparent reason.
Well, with Rue specifically, I mean, people have said to me like, oh, aren't you glad she got beautiful blue eyes? And I'm like, there's a bit of an undertone with that, right, because there's like you're saying that.
There's more value in a blue and blue brown eyedea exactly.
But then also like I was at an event the other day and a friend of mine mother in law, was there, and it's just a certain way people from that generation ask you or call out something. She really is fair, isn't she? She just yes, whoa she is so so so fair, so fair, and.
I want to do put her out in the sun without soundscreen, see what happens.
And I just it's like you're lingering on this one person about like, I get it, she's fair, but it's almost.
Felt like she needs to see the puff. Yeah exactly.
But it felt like she was saying like, oh wow, like I didn't think someone as dark as you could make someone as fair as that. That's the implication of it. Yeah, Like she's implying that without saying it. And know some people will be listening to this being like, oh, she wouldn't have. But like I can tell, like I've experienced this my whole life.
I can tell key or another person of color how they should be perceiving things or how they should feel about something, if that's how they are telling you that they feel. Yeah, And I always think about that quote. That's like her intent might not have been malicious at all. In fact, I'm sure it wasn't one hundred percent sure it wasn't malicious, yeah, but her impact still made you feel like shit, Yeah, And there's different so.
That a play here as well. Like I just think it's really hard to have to constantly live your life explaining. And so when ru was born and I could tell that she was, you know, after one year of having blue eyes, they were sticking and they were sticking around, and the hair was very straight, very straight, I just thought, oh, this adds another layer of difficulty here in that she's now. I mean, either way, had she been more like me,
both ways, she's going to get questions. It's just like I spend the majority of the time with her in public.
And dads never get the same sort of questions.
Dads won't out the question that's just like, oh, you're looking after your kid?
Who if your baby sitting good on your daddy.
It feels heavy that she's going to have to go through this stuff. And all I want for her is to feel like in any situation she's in that she's proud yep. Because a lot of people are going to make you feel this big or really small. Sorry, I forget that we're doing in the audio medium about things that you can't change, and I never want her to be for one minute in a situation where she's like feeling like she's not good enough or that she's different.
You know, like it's a difficult one. It is really hard, and that's why I really am trying to be super conscious of it in raising her from a young age. There is a really positive thing of this though, which came to me when I was putting this together, is that, like knowing that she is multi racial growing up, she's going to have an incredible level of empathy towards anyone she meets. Just because you look different, You're not different like I look different to her and her mom.
She's just I looking her. Everyone's different, Like.
I think she's just going to automatically have that because she's being raised in that way, and just sit an openness to other cultures that she's going to want to explore because my makeup and the things that I've said, it's.
A beautiful gift that you're giving her. Yeah, have you thought about what you're going to do?
Will you?
And Charlie, because it's also on him. He married you to teach ru to be proud of her heritage.
I think that I just really want to always talk about race from a young age, for it never to be a thing that's not spoken about, because it wasn't spoken about me growing up, and it took me years to really understand, and I was kind of like muddying my way through life trying to get perspective on things. And I just really want her to know what her heritage is. Daddy's x y Z, mum's x y Z, which means you're multiracial.
How cool is that?
Like these are your things. I want to prepare her so that any situation she's in when she's inevitably going to be asked questions if someone's seen me, or if she stands up and says, oh, I'm multi rap, like that she has the knowledge and the understanding of her heritage and the different cultures that she's made up of, so that she can speak confidently in a situation and not be like, oh, I don't know really what to say, like that kind of racial imposter syndrome that I mentioned
at the top of the episode, Like I don't want her to feel that way. I want to feel like she has a right to be proud about where she comes from.
Is there much black culture in Sydney things that you can do.
I don't think so, Like, I don't think so. But it's like the next one I had was that reading books and watching films about mixed race characters and also culture.
Is there much there is?
I mean thanks to streamers.
Yeah, we're watching thanks to Australian TV.
No, we're watching an amazing show. This is actually my recommendation for later called Supercell on Netflix, which has just been like me, draw on the floor, just like it's my two favorite things, sci fi and black culture in a frickin' TV series, And I'm just like, oh my god, is.
This one that you were like, I can't tell you about it yet.
I'm gonna wait to so I won't go touto. I'm gonna wait for the end of the episode. But up until a couple of years ago, I had never read a book that had a black protagonist in it. And I can't even tell you kind of how much I questioned everything. When I realized that, I was like, why have I never realized that? Like, why have I never sought books that have black leads? I think I just read what everyone else around me liked. But then I realized the stuff that everyone else is reading. I actually
find really boring because I can't relate. Like this book was talking about hair textures, it was using slang, it was talking about historical things that are really important, like all of the things that I'm interested in that perhaps someone else might not be interested in, Like and I actually reached out to that author and said that to her, and she said, same time I became a writer, gave me this list of books to read. She's like, you
need to read all these books. Basically she was so lovely, so lovely, and yeah, I think that has stuck with.
Me, Like, whereas and tell me if this is just me being I don't know if the word is ignorant, but when you tell me that, I'm like, why are we even putting that in books? Like who cares? Why would we know what the protagonist looks? Like That's what I'm just thinking of, Like why would I even know what the color of someone's skin is when I'm reading a book.
Because we're talking about lived experience, right, So if one lead character walks out the front door and the story and she's white, and another lee character walks out the front and she's black, they've got completely different experiences, and when I navigate life each day, it's very different, very different from what you do.
Like there are things well going to try to get a person to sign something.
Exactly, And I think that in an ideal.
World, I don't want there to ever be a different lived experience between a black person and a white person. Yeah, And I know that that's simplistic and a ridiculous thing to say, because for at least our lifetime it will be. Yeah, but it would be nice if we all collectively got together and we're just like, let's teach our kids vastly different experiences so that there is no difference between a man, woman, gender, race, anything, totally leaving the house.
No, I get what you mean, right, And that's ideally what we would like. But I think also by doing that we raise a lot of stuff that's happened historically. It is such a good impacts you generationally, like the generational trauma, such a good point that minorities have and they pass on through generation generation. It's something that subconsciously affects you every day as well. So I think that
we can creating a generation of acceptance. The last one I had is exposing rue to the culture so like black stuff like this at daycare well hopefully, but like this is where I after living in New York because obviously the stuff's like on Google calendars and I'm like, oh, what's this And I'm like, oh, so like Black History Month, June teenth, Black historical icons Kwansa. I want to finish on.
This is like about not using fractions when explaining heritage, so that point I'm half black, I'm half white, just saying I'm black and white. And so for Rue, instead of her saying, oh, I'm a quarter black and three quarters white, her just saying I'm black and white. Because then you're always presenting it as equal. You're never giving it like this little bit and the rest is that it means you're just presenting it equally, proudly, on the same level, like one is not more than the other.
So I think that's something I'm really gonna do when we start to talk about this, as you say, my heritage is black and white, and that's it. That's your answer. Well, next up we are talking to our lovely shit of Juliet. So she and our partner are actually from the UK and raising their two daughters in Melbourne. Juliet is a black woman and her partner is white. We met in our DMS after Juliet listened to our Q and A.
That was an episode at the start of the year. We can link it in the show notes if you're anyone's listening or are you talking about.
Yes, we will link it. We happen to be planning this episode when she reached out, so we figured we may as well invite her on for a chat about her experience, just to.
Have another person of color give their lived experience rather than me have a couple of just going yeah, yeah, yeah.
We loved the chat and we hope that you do too. Welcome Juliet. Can you start by telling us a little bit about your family?
Afore me and my partner Andy met here. We're both Richie from the UK and we have two beautiful daughters, Lila and Aria. Lyla is three and Aria is six months, so she's quite new. Yeah. We're living in Melbourne, down towards the Modernton Peninsula, so it's not the most diverse area, I would say, And in terms of race, I am a black woman and my partner is white and quite fair, quite fair.
So pre babies, did you and your partner chat about the realities of raising biracial kids.
Did you have any plans?
Did you always know that you would live somewhere where it was quite white?
In all? Honestly, like, we didn't really plan. We didn't really think about having children because actually, Lylah, my first was quite a surprise, so we didn't really think about it until I was pregnant and then I was like, oh, the only thing we really speculated about is what are they going to look like? You know, because we both look so different, So that's the same thing we really
thought about. We knew they were going to be obviously biracial, but both from the UK, It's not really something we really think about because it's quite common in the UK for people to be biracial, but then obviously here you just don't see it that often. So where we moved to we didn't really think about it. We just moved to the area that we liked. It happens to be a very white area.
I wanted to kind of get into, I guess the laundry list I'm imagining just speaking from my experience of microaggressions, because I'm going to assume that you have experienced this as a black mother of daughters who are fair because the same. And I think why I'm so interested in talking about this is just for other listeners to have the perspective of two women of color talking about their experience, just to show how common it is.
Yeah, so when you spoke on the podcast, i'd never heard anyone talk about it before, and I talk about it all the time because prior to having children, I don't really noticed me being because I grew up in a quite a white area and my family is really multicultural, so my mom's black, she's half Caribbean, I'm a quarter Caribbean. I have like black cousins and white sisters because we
have half sisters, so we're all over the shop. But I never really thought about my race that much because it's just not an issue for me until I had children. And when I say it's brought up on a daily basis, the comments that I get is daily, So obviously they do it look a lot like me. They're blue eyes, blonde hair, both of them, and really really fair skin. And I don't mind people saying to me, Wow, they don't look much like you, because they obviously don't. But
it's when I'm questioned whether I'm actually their mother. It's quite jarring. So like two times I can think of that really took me backwards. When I was six weeks old, I took her to a lactation because often because my breastfeeding has gone to shit, and the woman said, this is not your baby. I said, well, why would I bring somebody else's baby to a lactation? Learned how to feed her?
You're like, I didn't steal her off the street.
This is my human.
I made her.
I saw her exit my body exactly exactly.
So yeah, I've had that quite a lot, whether like is she even yours? Like someone said to me the libra, dat is she in yours? And I'm like, well, got the scars to prove it.
Love.
Yeah. Another time was that her daycare. One of the daycare workers she said to me, we always joke that, surely you're not the mother. And it was the fact that she said we always joke, so like I know that they're talking about it behind my back, like the workers there.
Yeah, even if she.
Wasn't my biological child, which she is, to say you're not the mother, it's like, but I am her mother.
I just don't understand why anyone would ever say that.
I think it even more offensive if I was her back, like adopted mother. I think that's even more offensive because you're like, well, I'm her mother. But I get it all the time. It's really many from older women. Yes, I never get it from men's older women and they come up and they go, are you the mother? And I say yes, and I'm like, because you look like the nanny or you look like the help.
Oh my god.
Yeah, it's funny because I'm like, if I was a nanny, my gosh, you'd want to pay me a lot. Like I'm breastfeeding the child. Yeah, like I'm all in one, like I'm kissing the kids and I'm giving them cuddles and I'm breastfeeding them. But yeah, a lot of times people would say to me when I was pregnant with Aria, was I hope this one looks more like you. But they say in front of Lilah, or hopefully this one has your skin color. And I think people don't think
they're being racist. They actually think they're being complimentary with me because they're saying, I hope that she has your skin color, because they're saying that we like your skin color. But that's implying that there's something wrong with my daughter's skin color because she's so white. And if it was either way around and someone was saying to a white woman with a black child, hopefully they happy this one has your skin color, it would be so racist.
It is reverse racism. It's almost trying to like I don't know, it almost pacify you in a way, like, oh, don't worry, you know there's still a chance for you. And I always get the oh, you'd think the darker genes would be stronger, And I'm like, why why would you think that? Because dark means strong, dark means harsh, Like where are you coming out from that? Like I also have no control over that, Like that's just what's come out. And I think that they don't consider how
confronting it is too. I know for me, not speaking for you, but I don't know if you experienced this is like I did think RU would look completely different. Not that I feel upset about that, but it does challenge your identity in a little bit because you think, well, they don't really look like me, Like I'm looking for mannerisms and things, but I don't see it because I don't know what my facial expressions or mannerisms are Yeah, I.
Get that all the time. So a lot of my close friends and family, and especially Andy's family, they're like, she looks so much like you, And actually, like, I have a photo of me as a child and then a comparison photo of Lilah, and we look so similar as kids. It's just that one has curly hair and one has straight white hair. Yeah, but I didn't have children to have little versions of I mean, obviously like versins of myself, but not like I didn't want to
mini me, you know. In fact, I'm so happy that they look like their dad because he's the person I fell in love with. Yeah, so I'm so happy that they have the blue eyes because those are the eyes that I fell in love with, do you know what I mean.
That's really so.
I just think it's a miracle that they look the way they look. And I just I think in front of my daughter, when people keep saying about race, it's not something a three year old should really be taking in, but it's constantly said in front of her. And that's the problem for me, is that she's quite aware of it, and she didn't.
Need to be little kids just shouldn't. It shouldn't even be a thing.
And Key and I have spoken about this before because where we live in Sydney. Key lives in a very white area of Sydney and I live in a very multicultural era of Sydney, so lends one of the only white kids in his class. So it won't ever be a thing that he will be like wondering about those different things. It's just, Oh, they're all just kids. As you said, no three year old should be thinking about race at daycare.
And none of the kids ever mentioned it. No kids ever said to me, you don't like Lila, it's only adults and it's only older women.
If you go who's that and you go that's her mom, they go, oh, they don't need you to sit down and give you a whole kind of like you know your heritage and you know so then they completely understand, very clearly in their mind how that has come to be. No kids are just so face value. They're like, oh, yeah, cool, that's your mum. Cool she's pretty and nice, and yeah
she seems fun. Like I think that's what we forget as we get older, Like I get the intrigue right because whenever I see a biracial woman walking down the street, I'm like, oh my god, Like I'm just like I just want to ask you every question, like what's your megs like? Because I feel seen, and then I go none of my business.
I totally get you, key, because I think living in Australia, especially in England, No, I don't think there's so many Caribbean people in England. Yeah, but here, if I see another person that looks like me, I'm like wow, because I don't see it that often that I'm like, oh wow, it's nice to see another person, you know.
I think we throw around the fact that Australia is so multicultural. I got a very big shock moving from New Zealand to Australia as a young girl because I would say that New Zealand is far more multicultural, and I feel like here everyone's very siloed, so you just kind of have pockets of culture but not really crossing over. And I know, like in England for instance, that like you know, when they were building different neighborhoods, that build
them side by side, so there is crossover. Because I never wanted people to not be able to be central and be in the mix whereas I feel like here, the further up from the city is where you get those pockets because it has been set up in a way that everyone is still really segregated, even though that's like a big word. But have you noticed the same here?
Well, yeah, I think Australia is still such a new country that everyone moved over in different waves. Yeah, you know, and they kind of tend to stick with the people that they moved over with. And I think that is getting better. And like obviously with social media and stuff, everyone's seeing a lot more of different people, so it is improving, and it depends where you go. Really. I did notice that my cousin came here from England and he lives in London, and he came here and was like,
where are all the black peaples. Yeah, he couldn't get his head around it. There's not that many Caribbean people here because they moved to England for a reason. Yeah, they haven't had a wave of Caribbean people moving here, So yeah, I definitely do see it a lot more.
And my partner works in construction and he has I don't think ours are like inherently racist, but he has had some racist comments made in front of him because he's white, thinking that they're in a safe space, and he has to say, look, I don't want to hear that.
I can't hear. I can't listen to that. You can't and not that I mean anyone could say you can't say in front of me, but he's like, I take personal offense to it because my partner's black and my kids are black, So please don't say that in front of me. And that's my biggest worry for the girls is that because they present so wide that growing up, they might be in a situation where people feel that they're in a safe space to use the N word
or something they would never say to your face. Yeah, and I just really worry that they're going to have to speak up each time. It means up to them how they want to react to it. But I hope that they have the strength of character to say, actually, I have Caribbean heritage and I really take offense to that.
Yeah, definitely. It's just also the additional labor that they're going to have to have, And that's just what's disheartening for me, is like you can never just show up because you are who you are. It's always got to be, you have to be defined by something in order to
be placed or put somewhere. So that's why I really want to have this conversation with another person, just because I feel like I have this conversation to Kelly all the time and she's like, well, that's fucked, and I'm like, yeah, the conversation is over. So I feel like it's really lovely to have your perspective and lived experience just to even be able to have a conversation to go back and forth.
Yeah, And I think, like I said, I think it's getting better. Like there are a lot of toys and books and stuff out there that have different races in them now, Like growing up, I never had a black barbie. I don't think it was all white barbies and maybe just my mum was buying them for me. But now I like really really take notice of like all the you know, the black barbies and the black toys and stuff.
Just so Lilah has in her head that you know, there's different races out there, and her kinder they do a really good thing where they put like different countries on the wall and they have little photos of them, of the kids, and they stick the photos on the based on the parents' heritage. So like on her wall, she's got like a little photo on the England and a little photo on the Caribbean, and it's just really cute because that kind of opens up the conversation at such an early age.
And they do their little I'm sure they do it at your daycare as well. At mine, they do every single week or maybe every couple of weeks. They'll do like a different this is India and they'll do the whole week, like all of the activities and everything is like dedicated to India, and they'll do a lot of different Indian cuisines for the lunch, and they'll do like discussions and read books and then they've got little areas
and listen. Sometimes I'm like, I don't know how appropriate it is that all of these two year olds are wearing saris.
But you know what, if they're learning, then that's great.
That's what it is. Exposure at a young age. That's the thing that's going to help I think how siloed some of our kids are growing up, is that the kindergartens, the preschools, the schools that make an effort to really explore different cultures it's just embedding that like level of empathy and understanding and seeing of other people if you can't, you know, live alongside different people.
Yeah. So yeah, where we live it's quite a white area. I've enrolled her in a ballet school, which is a really multicultural area, and I love the older little girls in their little two two's. They're probably like two or three other like white presenting kids. And I would say white presenting because like she does look white. If you looks at her, you think she was a white kid, but she's not, So I say white presenting. But yeah, there's probably two or three. All the others are all
from all different races, and I love that. Yeah, in her kinder there's only one black kid and the rest of them are all white. I think. So it's tricky, but if you can try and integrate them into different extracurricular activities that go to different areas, you know, then I guess you can kind of expose them in that way as well.
So what would your tip be to firstly parents who are raising bi racial kids and secondly people who feel the need to ask unwanted questions.
I don't think I handle it that well, Like I wish I was more. I'm such a people pleaser that I just sort of laugh about it when people say stuff, and then later on I kind of go home and say to Andy, like, oh my god, this woman at the library said issue in yours. I think as time goes on, I will probably speak up a bit more. But I think you're going to get comments, especially if you're a black woman with where presenting children, you are going to get the comments. So it's just up to
you to see how you react to it. I think if you get angry every single time, you're just going to live in a world full of anger. So I could sort of just like try to get on the front foot and joke about it before they do, so I say, I know, I know that it looks like me,
but you know, ha ha ha. And then also, like I just said, like if you really want to integate them into their race or different races, and you live in a white area, like try and book a daycade group or something that's not in your area, or like a ballet class or I don't know, like karate. It's in a more diverse area, so they get exposure to
other races in that way. And then in terms of people saying stuff like I think it's fine for people to comment on the fact that they do it look like me, but to question whether you're the mother and don't mention race. I just don't think it's okay to mention race. Yeah, Like, don't say, oh, they're white, but they're white. It doesn't make any sense for a child
to hear that. They're going to hear it the whole life, and they're going to probably be aware of it at some point, but it's not okay for a child to be aware of it.
And there are so many other things that you can comment on, or she's got beautiful blue eyes? Are those from her dad? Or oh wow, her hair is really straight, like, there are so many other things that you could even focus on.
Yeah. Yeah, And I think, like you said, I think a compliment around it. It's nice, Like I don't mind if someone's being complimentary, but when they're just shocked at it and out and out saying it, it's jarring.
Yeah. Or when someone's like, oh, isn't she lucky she got blue eyes and I'm like, well, what's wrong with brown eyes? Brown eyes?
Pretty? Like?
I think it's just in the way that you say things like I think it's thinking before you speak right, Like you might not mean it in that way, but delivery is everything. Tone is everything. We're not commenting on women's appearances anymore. We certainly don't need to be commenting on kids appearances either.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, thank you so much for coming on. Honestly, it was such a lovely conversation. I feel really seen and heard just having that convo with you. So thank you so much for reaching out to us, and for the lovely feedback on that episode too well.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, and like I said, it was so nice to hear somebody else talk about it in your Q and A episode. I just felt seen. I felt like, oh my god, somebody else skeetsful.
Oh yeah, I get it.
That was such a good chat.
I learned so much, and I think Shit is at home will really enjoy listening to you to talk. I really hope everyone listens to it and loves it as much as we've loved having the conversation. Yes, but tell me more about your recommendations. Ties in so nicely for Shock Shaded.
So it's called Supercell. It is a new series out on Netflix. It came out a couple of weeks ago, a week ago. It's very new in the.
Future question a dream.
I can't heard that.
As people as well of superpolpers find them to league. It is written and created by a gentleman called rap Man.
So he is his name on his birthday, Hitch.
I don't think so. So he is a UK rapper that was signed to Rockefeller, which is jay Z's record label, and basically he is known for telling these amazing stories through rap. And when jay Z signed him, he got a movie deal for him and he made this kind of like short film and basically as a result of that, he ended up getting this Netflix deal for this TV show. And when I tell you, it is just my favorite
thing to watch because it's sci fi. So basically it's set around these five strangers having superpowers and them all needing to kind of link up to save I don't even know what yet because I'm only halfway through the season, but it's all about that black culture in London. It's
just so clear everything. It's like there's one scene where one of the lead guys and his girlfriend's on the couch and they're watching like something that's a little bit like love Island and it's the last person and it's like a black bachelor, a black bachelorette, and a white bachelorette, and he chooses a white girl and she's like, oh, man, Like they need to stop putting black women on these
TV shows, Like it's just really mean. And I'm just like, this is what I always talk about, Like they always put black women on these shows, but they never cast men who are attracted to them. There's like little things like that. There's scenes where two sisters are braiding their hair, the language they use, just seeing different textures of hair on screen. It's just so cool to have that type of show because I've never seen that, Like, yeah, I've never seen a show that's about black people.
Who were on this part than the sci fi part, I'm gonna be but.
I love sci fi, but it's typically a really white genre. They might have one like storm An X Men or something like that, right, but this is just like most black stories center around stereotypical tropes, right, whereas this show is purely about superpower exactly. There's a lot of different things. So I just it's exciting because it's not centered around like one thing.
It's centered around this like really cool supernatural thing.
Anyway, I love it. It's fun I think you should watch it. And it's just like amazing that this ratman.
Guy his that's a cool story, his imagination stories behind things, because.
I honestly think that, like whenever I don't watch something, I'm interested to know like how it came to be, because I just think sometimes, right thirty of you, well, it's just amazing, like how did this come to be?
It's funny that you're not a puzzler because you like putting things together.
No, I just love reading stories about people. I think, Oh, yeah, I don't know anyway, supercil Netflix really good.
Well, thank you Keith, thank you Juliet, and thank you to our shitters for listening to this episode.
Please share the pod.
On your socials, get more of your friends to be shitters, and let us know what you think. You can rate and review us or dm us.
Yes, and the Facebook has been hopping off. Oh we love all of the QUI questions in there.
It's honestly actually just such a helpful to use.
I know, Helly threw our little thing in the other day when lend was a bit sick, and the number of shitters who wrote back with them, which is.
So helpful, and it just like I was just feeling so defeated and just have so many good moms.
Yeah, it's nice, So come and join. Everyone's welcome.
Don't have to be a mum as well.
Just come in there to have a bit of a giggle about some of the problems that we face.
Yes, we actually have some cool problems. We need some fashion choose for pregnant l which we sorted out.
Post sex episode in season one.
Oh my god, I love her. I love her. She's pregnant. I don't know.
Are we like to say that?
Well, she said it on the thing.
Congratulations, congratulations Chelsea.
This episode was produced by us Kiri Searles and Kelly McCarran, with audio production by the wonderful Madeline Joanna, see you next week. She is bye.