#24 — Nutritional therapy for ADHD

Hi Dana, thank you so much for joining me today. I just wondered if you could give a quick introduction to start with on who you are and what you do. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So my name is Dana Chapman. I am a nutritional therapist and I specialize in ADHD. I have a very keen interest in the gut. and the gut microbiome. So that whole gut brain axis in terms of ADHD as well.

When I first qualified, actually, I started specializing in mental health. But now we know that mental health and ADHD have so many crossovers between them. But yeah, so that is sort of... The area that I specialize in now is that gut brain access and specifically trying to help people with ADHD to help manage their symptoms more naturally. Perfect. So we were just talking before I hit record.

we were talking about the fact that you don't have ADHD. So I'm quite interested to know why, like what drew you to specialising in nutrition and ADHD. Yeah, great question. And I get asked it a lot of times. And I wish I could say, yes, I do have ADHD. And that's the reason why, because I think it's much it's a much easier correlation for people. But then I think back and I go, not every psychologist has got to.

mental health condition or not every psychiatrist has got a mental health condition or a psychiatric condition either so I kind of justify it in that way but Everything that I've specialised in has kind of been situational in terms of when I was studying and what was happening at that time. And when I was studying, I was part of a networking group, which was a group of occupational therapists who dealt with a lot of children, obviously, with learning difficulties. and neurodiversity as well.

But within that group, they were talking about all the things occupational therapists talk about. And it's definitely not my specialty, so I don't even know the extent of what they talk about. But none of them were actually considering the role of diet. and the role of the functioning of the body and how you can get the body to naturally function better.

through things like nutrition or sorting out whether there is a toxic load within a person's body that may be causing them to have certain type of symptoms. So I was really interested in it. From that point of view is how can you help these children or these people? I specialize more in adults these days than children. But how can you help these people with something that they do every single day?

which is their diet and your diet can either be quite detrimental to your health and that includes your brain health and brain function or it can be really supportive so that's sort of what led me down the road of wanting to specialize in neurodiversity awesome I mean I definitely do

feel that like people who specialize in this area need to have adhd um but it's just quite interesting to see what your reasoning for that was yeah um cool thank you so i'd love you to tell me a little bit more than you just mentioned there about

the gut and the brain i'd love you to talk a little bit more about the connection because i think that people don't I did nutrition at uni, so I am aware that there is a big connection there, but I don't think it's like a well-known thing. I don't think people realise how closely your gut and your brain are connected. So could you talk about that?

Yeah, absolutely. It is being spoken about a lot more. But I mean, we need to talk about the gut microbiome as well, because I talk about that a lot more. And people don't even know what the gut microbiome is. The gut-brain axis or the gut and the brain are connected by what's called the gut-brain axis. Actually, when we were formed in utero, the gut and the brain separated from the same cell.

obviously the brain goes up and the gut goes down, but they're always connected by what's called the vagus nerve. And the vagus nerve is the main signaling. pathway between the gut and the brain and actually 90% of signals go from the gut to the brain only 10% of signals go from the brain to the gut

So there's a lot of what is happening in the gut that can impact the brain through that communication from the gut to the brain. Now, there's many ways that that signaling happens. It happens through.

hormones through neurotransmitters and through our immune system so there's a few different systems involved and it can get really complex and intricate but if you just think um neurotransmitters a lot of our neurotransmitters are made in the gut whether they actually have an effect in the brain is still quite we don't quite understand that connection but if you think about adhd

Often we talk about dopamine, which is the main neurotransmitter that is implicated or that people know about when you're talking about ADHD. But... we need to not forget the other neurotransmitters so dopamine is just one of them we've got to think about GABA which is our main anti-anxiety neurotransmitter that main inhibitory that main calming neurotransmitter

We need to think about serotonin, which is our happy homecoming. I feel safe. If you want to learn something, you've got to feel safe in your environment. And serotonin is needed for that. And then from serotonin, we actually make melatonin, which is another one of those inhibitory neurotransmitters. But melatonin is what helps us sleep. And often people with ADHD have a real problem with sleeping.

and melatonin might be one of the reasons why. So a lot of these neurotransmitters are made in the gut. We know that 95% of serotonin is made in the gut, over 50% of dopamine is made in the gut, and all of your GABA. is made in the gut as well. So the gut and that gut brain access, that communication between the gut and the brain is all really important. And one of those communications is if the gut is not happy.

and normally the gut is not happy because of the gut microbiome, because the gut microbiome may be imbalanced, that can send stress signals to the brain. That can send signals to the brain to activate that stress response. You know, people with ADHD are very prone to burnout if your gut is activating that stress response that can be contributing to burnout. And nobody really... pays much attention to that you think about all the external things not the things that are going on internally yeah

I mean, I find that really interesting. I know I attended a session you did a while ago, a few weeks back on Zoom, and you spoke about how a lot of the... like dopamine and serotonin and GABA they're all made in the gut like I had absolutely no idea about that like no one ever speaks about that so I was I was like I found that really really interesting yeah um

So tell me a bit more about the gut microbiome then. Yeah, so not many people know what the gut microbiome is, so I'll start there. The gut microbiome refers to... microorganisms that live mainly within the large intestine when we talk about the gut microbiome we're talking specifically about the large intestine

Although we do have these microorganisms in the small intestine, in the stomach, and even in the mouth. I mean, we've got them all over the place. We've even got a skin microbiome as well. So it's these microorganisms and microorganisms can be things like bacteria. And when we talk about the gut microbiome, lots of people talk about bacteria in the gut. And yes, bacteria is one of the main components of our gut microbiome. But there are also things like viruses. There are also things like fungi.

and what we call archaea or and and then we also have another species which is parasites and people are talking a little bit more about parasites because of zoe and that some may be positive and others may then be negative so

It's sort of the collection of all of those. Now the gut microbiome has so many benefits for the host. The gut microbiome itself is about... two kgs in weight so it's really heavy the amount of cells that we have the amount of microorganisms in the gut outweigh our cells in our own body So some people are starting to talk about, are we more bacteria or are we more human? So there's over what we call over 100 trillion of these microorganism cells within the large intestine.

And of those 100 trillion microorganisms, there are lots of different families of bacteria, lots of different families of viruses and fungi and parasites and what we call archaea. So there's lots of different species of these bugs living in our large intestine.

that's where we get the benefit we need that diversity so that's when we talk about diversity of the gut microbiome what we're talking about is we need lots of different families of bacteria and um fungi and all of those sorts of things because they all help keep each other in check and the analogy that I often like to give is the analogy of a forest within a forest you've got loads of different

species of plants but they all live in harmony with each other and if something happens to that environment then you will start to see a degradation of some of the vegetation within that forest. And the same thing can happen with the gut microbiome. So if something goes awry, then that bacteria or the balance of the microbiome can be altered.

And then we don't get a lot of the benefits that we need to be getting or should be getting from our gut microbiome because it gives us all of these benefits for our health. So, for example, it helps make some B vitamins. it creates what we call short chain fatty acids, such as butyrate and propionate acetate, which is important for the lining of the gut. But it's also important for creating our neurotransmitters.

This is how the gut and the gut microbiome are involved in creating our neurotransmitters. It also helps us digest our food. So fiber specifically is digested and broken down by the gut microbiome.

So there are lots of health benefits that we get from the gut microbiome. And when we talk about the gut brain axis, often it's the signaling of the microbiome to the brain that is... part of that gut brain axis and the gut brain axis signaling okay wow um that feels very complicated

So you talked about how, like, when things go wrong, basically, like, your analogy of the forest. What do you mean by that? Like, is that when things go wrong because you're eating the wrong foods or because you're poorly or what could that be? Yeah, so there are a few factors that play a role in what your gut microbiome looks like. Food is a very big role. You get a lot of your microbiome, you get inoculated, or your first inoculation of your gut microbiome.

we used to think used to be in childbirth. We actually now know that you start developing some sort of microbiome in utero, but the main inoculation comes through giving birth. So, for example, a vaginal birth, a baby is known to have a different microbiome to a C-section birth. So it can start going wrong even from birth. And I'm not trying to. make anyone feel like they've done the wrong thing by having a c-section of often it's not even it's um not a choice yeah um

But yeah, these are the factors that we start to take into consideration. So when I deal with people on a one to one basis, my questionnaire even goes down to where you're a C-section birth or a vaginal birth, because you can start. to paint a picture of what the gut microbiome might have been like since birth. So things like mode of delivery, things like whether you were bottle fed or breastfed.

has an impact on your gut microbiome. We obviously know that medication, especially things like antibiotics, can disrupt that gut microbiome because you're wiping out bacteria. But yes, our diet has a large role to play. And not many people know, but the stress has an impact on the gut microbiome. So stress can kill certain bacteria within the gut.

And then obviously a diet that's not diverse or a diet that is very high in processed foods can very much disrupt that gut microbiome. Yeah. Wow, that's true. I mean, that's so interesting to hear that like... depending on how you were born like i won't ask you to go into that's probably a bit much for today but that's just that's wow like i don't i'm trying to think how that would even matter but we don't need to go into that right now um

cool okay so let's let's talk a little bit about diet then so um what what should i be eating i have adhd tell me what i need to eat um i feel like i i never give simple answers i'm working on this i'm working on trying to simplify things when you're thinking about diet and adhd there are

at least three aspects that you need to be thinking about. The first thing is, are you getting enough nutrients in your diet to be able to make your neurotransmitters? So we've already touched on the fact that ADHD is Well, we actually haven't touched on the fact that ADHD is an imbalance in your neurotransmitters, not just dopamine. We touched on that, not just dopamine, but it's an imbalance in one or more of your neurotransmitters. Yeah.

Neurotransmitters aren't made by magic. We often I think expect our bodies to work by magic but they don't. Our bodies work in processes within the body. But your body needs nutrients for these processes to happen effectively. So I'll give an example of serotonin. So serotonin is actually made from an amino acid called tryptophan. So amino acids are protein. So firstly, are you getting enough protein in your diet?

both serotonin and you make melatonin from serotonin, but also dopamine and you make noradrenaline and adrenaline from dopamine, both serotonin and dopamine. The starting point is an amino acid. So protein is absolutely key for the starting blocks to have the raw ingredients to be able to make your neurotransmitters. I've read quite a lot and I've been told in the past that a really like rough guide as to how much protein you need is about one gram per pound that you weigh is that yes I think

So it's about, if you're exercising, I would say one gram per pound. I work in kgs. And the minimum recommendation if you are not exercising is about 0.8 grams per kg of body weight. I like to say at a minimum, you should be getting one gram of protein.

per kg of body weight so I weigh about 60 kgs I should be eating at least 60 grams of protein a day I exercise fairly regularly and I think anyone with ADHD should too So you're thinking about increasing that to about 1.2 or 1.5, which then is closer to the one pound, one gram per pound of body weight. so yes 60 grams that isn't a lot is it actually well if you think about it that's 20 grams per meal two eggs will give you 15 grams of protein okay so

You need two eggs plus something at breakfast to hit 20 grams. Okay, fair. You need 20 grams at lunch, which is about a palm size or about 100 grams of a chicken breast. And then a dinner that's like 100 grams of salmon, for example. Okay. So people these days who are eating cereal for breakfast, a sandwich for lunch, and maybe a pasta for dinner.

no ways you'll be meeting your protein needs with a diet like that. So it depends, you know, what your starting point is, but I should be eating more because I exercise more regularly. So I'm aiming for more like 80 to 90 grams of protein a day. Okay. Yeah. So we've got a little bit sidetracked on the protein. So what should you be eating? So protein definitely is the starting block.

But then we need nutrients to be able to convert that tryptophan. In the example of serotonin, we need nutrients to convert that tryptophan into what we call 5-HTP. And 5-HTP gets converted into serotonin. And for that pathway to happen effectively, we need estrogen, actually. We need vitamin D. And we need B vitamins.

just for that first process to go from your tryptophan to 5-HTP. Then from 5-HTP, you need to be converted into serotonin. And again, you need more nutrients for that to happen effectively. So things like magnesium. And again, vitamin B, especially B6, is really key for any of our neurotransmitters to be created.

That's sort of what you're thinking about when, you know, the question of what should I eat when it comes to mental health? The first starting point is, do you have enough nutrients in your diet? What foods contain those nutrients? to actually be able to make your neurotransmitters. Then you've got to be thinking, the second thing I always think about is inflammation. So if you are inflamed, then...

Your neurotransmitters will not bind to the neurotransmitter receptor effectively, which means that, great, you're making your neurotransmitters, but they're not actually able to bind and then have an effect. Can I just, I'm sorry to interject again, but I think it might have even been you that I learned this from. So I've always just believed, because this is what everyone says, that ADHD is a lack of dopamine. But what I got told that...

and I'm sure it was you that told me this, was that it's not always actually a lack of dopamine. It's the bonding, I think you said, to the receptors. Is that right? It's the detoxification. It's actually the process after it's bonded. So we actually, once we've used our neurotransmitters, need to detoxify and get rid of them. Or if they're not being used, they need to be whipped away. So actually some of the symptoms of ADHD.

are the same for low dopamine and for high dopamine so things like insomnia anxiety and inattention or that lack of attention that can be a symptom of either low dopamine or high dopamine. And yes, I've done genetic testing on a number of my ADHD clients, and specifically women seem to not have a problem with making dopamine.

but they do have a problem with getting rid of dopamine. So that's, I'm sorry to sidetrack you there, but I just find that really interesting because like I would say 90% of things I've read on the internet and on social media and things that people say. I have ADHD and what that is is a lack of dopamine. So it's really, really interesting to know that actually it could be low or high. So yeah, thank you for explaining that. Yeah.

It could be low or high, or it could be perfect. And it's your serotonin pathway that's not working effectively. And without testing, you don't really know. But this is why some people find it difficult to go on medication and find that medication actually makes them worse rather than better. Yeah. That's an interesting point as well. But sorry, I've taken you away from your point as well. So what I was saying is the second point you need to think about is inflammation.

And the diet plays a really large role in inflammation. A diet can be quite inflammatory, especially if, again, it is high in processed foods. And again, if it is high in things like seed. and vegetable oils that we are led to believe are actually healthy for us so and also then on the flip side We have specific foods that are anti-inflammatory. So for example, your oily fish, which is high in omega-3 fatty acids, which is important for your anti-inflammatory response.

But also things like oily fish are amazing. And omega threes are needed for proper brain health and brain function. So. inflammation plays a role. So do you have enough nutrients? Is there inflammation? Yes or no? And then what is the gut and the gut microbiome doing? Because you need to make sure that the gut microbiome is balanced.

And not giving off any, the gut microbiome can cause inflammation as well. You can have inflammatory bacteria that have overgrown and that can cause inflammation within the body. but also you need your gut microbiome to be diverse enough so that you're creating your neurotransmitters. So those are sort of the three elements that I look at to go, okay, this is why you need to be looking at diet. And then, okay, so...

What is going to give you those nutrients to produce your neurotransmitters? What's going to give you that anti-inflammatory effect and making sure you don't have inflammation in the diet? And what's going to give you that gut microbiome that's really diverse and robust?

And then you can start to think of things that we've all been told before. Shop the periphery of the grocery store. don't go down the aisles and get any of the processed stuff in the middle so if you're looking at what are the nutrients needed for making your neurotransmitters Most of these are coming from protein. And this is the amazing thing with Mother Nature, right? So protein is needed. It's the first starting block of your neurotransmitters.

But in a lot of foods that have got protein or are high in protein, also are high in things like vitamin B, zinc.

and iron, which are all important for making our neurotransmitters. So animal meat, I'm a high proponent of, especially in the ADHD community, you can get sufficient protein as well as things like magnesium and zinc and iron from beans and lentils that you need to be eating these on a daily basis so if you are vegan you need to really pay attention to what you're eating and not just go and buy vegan products off the shelf you really need to be conscious of

the amount of beans and lentils that you need, the amount of tofu and things like that that you can add into your diet to just really boost your protein intake and those nutrients that go alongside it. I would say protein is one of the key building blocks for your neurotransmitters. And things like oily fish.

If you're adding an oily fish into that protein, you're getting your omega-3, but you're also then getting your B vitamins, you're getting some zinc, you're getting some iron, and you're getting that all-important protein, which is the starting point. yeah so that's that so that's sort of the first two your neurotransmitter production and inflammation the third one is the gut and the gut microbiome and whenever you're looking at the gut and the gut microbiome

you're thinking about diversity of plant foods in the diet. The recommendation is 30 different plant foods in a week to help you get that diversity. If you think about diversity of the gut microbiome, I refer to it as children in my family. No two children like the same food. Neither does your bacteria. So different bacteria feed off different foods. And that's why we're looking at getting that diversity of plant foods in the diet so that you're feeding a diverse range of bacteria in your gut.

And people think that this is incredibly hard. But if you think about plant foods are fruit, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains and whole grains can form part of that as well. Beans and lentils. So, you know, if you're making a salad at lunchtime, you can throw in spinach, watercress and rocket instead of having iceberg lettuce. And really that's three different varieties.

rather than just one, you can start to think about... buying bags of mixed nuts as opposed to always going for cashew nuts for example you can think about throwing half a tin of chickpeas into your lunch today half a tin tomorrow then the next day maybe you're going to go and get some lentil and start to think about diversity in that way you can mix up your whole grains as well so instead of always having white pasta you could go for a red lentil pasta you could go for a brown rice pasta

And you can start to think about diversity in that way as well. The gut also likes... So the gut microbiome really feeds off what we call polyphenols. So it's the dark, rich colours in... fruit and vegetables to things like pomegranates, red peppers. You can also start to think about different teas. So again, diversity can come in the form of different teas that you're getting.

teas are really high in polyphenols especially things like green tea coffee is really high in polyphenols and actually coffee is really high in fiber and that's another thing that the gut microbiome loves is fiber we're not getting enough coffee had fiber yeah i mean it does always help me go to the toilet but is that because of the fiber or is that something else

that's because of the caffeine oh okay yeah that's really interesting i had absolutely no idea that coffee had fiber in it yeah yeah people these days are not getting enough fiber so the recommendation is about 30 grams of fiber a day And we're not reaching that. And I'm not saying go and get your fiber from Weetabix or High Fiber Brand either, because that's a processed food. Adding beans and lentils into your diet and adding nuts and seeds into your diet are great ways to help increase fiber.

And then going for your high fiber foods like raspberries, for example, a cup of raspberries has got eight grams of fiber in it. Wow. I mean, I would say. track your food for two or three days and see if you're getting enough fiber you would probably from that tracking also get an idea of whether you're getting enough protein and whether you're getting enough b vitamins as well yeah

Amazing. That is a whistle stop tour. One thing I do want to go back to, because I'm really interested in this now, you said about the... the the oils that are sort of advertised as being really healthy but actually they're not so like i i mean i just cook with rapeseed oil so what oils are good then what should we be using in our cooking olive oil olive oil okay easy yeah yeah yeah there's so much contradictory research into rapeseed oil

It is a lot cheaper. It's better than something like sunflower seed oil. Yeah. But I think the best by far and the most researched is olive oil. And actually having three tablespoons of olive oil a day is really good for the gut microbiome. Wow. Yeah. So again, olive oil is high in polyphenols. So that's going to feed the gut microbiome. Now, ideally it's going to be extra virgin and it's not going to be heated, but olive oil is still a good option for cooking. Yeah.

amazing i also i also love to cook with things like ghee and sometimes coconut oil okay yeah yeah i've never i've never cooked with anything other than like rapeseed oil olive oil and i do use a lot of sesame oil So quite like a lot of like Asian foods. So I use a lot of sesame oil. Is that a good one? Bad one? Okay. I think it's actually okay. That and I think peanut oil have quite a high smoke point, I believe. Yeah.

I would say, and especially if you're having sesame oil in some sort of dressing rather than heating and cooking with it. But I think it does have a fairly high smoke point as well. Avocado oil is another one that's quite good. to use i don't love the taste of avocado oil though i've never i mean i love avocado but i've never actually had avocado oil um to be honest yeah and it's very expensive right so you know

If it's going to sit in the cupboard because you're going to use it every now and then, I would just stick to, I think with ADHD, you're just trying to simplify everything. Yeah. Let's just have one oil in the cupboard or two if you like your Asian type food. Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that I have found personally as a blocker to trying to fix my diet over the years is money.

like the idea of like 30 different plants. foods a week I know I've had this conversation with Joe before and he pointed out that like you could get a pack of like mixed seeds and that might have 10 different seeds and you've got 10 already and I was like okay that's but what

What advice do you have or anything? Is there anything for people who are concerned because, you know, trying to vary your diet so much if they've not got loads of money to spend on the shopping? I would always go frozen fruit.

and vegetables so you can make um smoothies at the drop of a hat with some frozen spinach some frozen blueberries maybe a little bit of avocado yeah um and then Maybe getting like a weekly vegetable box and it being small enough that it's not going to go off and then freeze a food to just help with.

when any fresh fruit is not available or that can just top you up in terms of it's a lot more reasonable yeah um some people say that it's more nutrient dense actually as well because it's picked and then frozen not picked and then transported halfway across the world and then two weeks later we buy it and then a week later we eat it yeah

And so that and then I love using beans and lentils. So tinned beans, tinned lentils are fairly reasonable. I mean, a tin of chickpeas is a pound and that will keep in your cupboard as well. Forever. Yeah. Amazing.

um i i did used to get a weekly veg box actually um and what i loved most about it was all the different vegetables that it actually introduced me to as well like i'm not a massive fruit person which is weird because i have such a sweet tooth um i'm much more into my vegetables and I really enjoyed that because it introduced me to so many random veg that

means i know that i now eat on a regular basis so i definitely would recommend that just for the variety as well and to just introduce some new things yeah yeah because i always say we're so blessed and cursed at the same time living in the uk because you can go into the shops and buy the same food week in and week out yeah and you know these lovely online shopping carts where you just repeat the order that you did last week so

as nice and easy as that is it's not as beneficial for you but yeah if you're getting a weekly vegetable box you don't have to go in and change it but the ingredients will change on a weekly and or monthly and or seasonal basis because there are seasonal vegetables. So yeah, it's one way that I increased my diversity as well. No, it's a great idea. I love that. Yeah. Cool. So thank you so much for all that. It's really, really interesting and really useful information.

One thing I would like to talk about, which I mentioned to you this before we started recording, was I've actually recently been told by my doctor that he thinks I'm perimenopausal, so I'm 39. And I've done a little bit of research since then into... the link between my ADHD symptoms and being perimenopausal or going through the menopause. And I mean, everything everywhere just says that your ADHD symptoms can definitely get worse.

So, yeah, I just want you to talk about that a little bit, if you could explain a little bit more about what happens in these stages and what we can do with our diet to support that. Yeah, absolutely. So what I mentioned when you said that is there's three main points that women get diagnosed in their life with ADHD. One is adolescence, the other is after having a baby, and the third is in perimenopause and menopause.

And it's because hormones are all over the place in those three specific stages. So women find it incredibly overwhelming normally after having a baby or going through perimenopause and menopause. And the reason is, is because estrogen, which is the main sex hormone in a woman's body, estrogen is a little bit erratic all over the place in those three phases.

And estrogen is very necessary for actually activating our neurotransmitters. So I already mentioned how estrogen is needed to make serotonin, which is our happy hormone. So a lot of women really struggle with depression at this phase. And that sense of overwhelm and doom. And then you've also got to think about in perimenopause specifically, progesterone normally falls off a cliff.

or is slightly more erratic. And perimenopausally, that can definitely happen because estrogen can actually be a lot higher in perimenopause before it drops off in menopause.

which means that you've got what we call an estrogen and progesterone imbalance. And our hormones are like our gut microbiome, like everything in our body. They call it the dance of the hormones, that estrogen and progesterone need to... flow with each other to keep each other in check almost and so yeah estrogen is needed to activate those neurotransmitters and that's why symptoms are a lot worse in perimenopause for women you can eat foods

that have a estrogenic effect in the body. And those foods are things like soy. So I always recommend tempeh because it's a fermented. form of soy and we actually haven't talked about fermented foods but fermented foods are another thing that's important for the gut microbiome yeah i forgot to mention but fermented um fermented soya is called tempeh

which is a great source of what we call these phytoestrogens in the body. And then other things like yams. So a lot of supplements will have yam in it. Can't really get yam, I don't think, in the UK. Yeah, I don't think so. Yeah, but things like ground flax seeds are going to be high in phytoestrogens as well. Now... Sorry.

You said ground flaxseeds, so not just flaxseeds? Do they have to be ground? Yeah, we don't actually absorb them if they're whole. They're too small and too hard for our body to break down.

Because I put them in my porridge, so is that just a waste of time? Am I better off just getting the ground ones? Yeah, I'm better off getting the ground ones. Oh, wow, that's really interesting. So I didn't know that either. I have a bag downstairs and I... you know putting more porridge thinking i'm doing my myself a service but no okay that's really interesting as well and keep them in the fridge because all of these nuts and seeds and things like that are at risk of um

what we call oxidant oxidation so if they're exposed to heat and light the fats within them can um be destroyed wow or altered in a way that's not beneficial the other thing that people often don't consider. And I think this is why so many more women are having hairy menopausal symptoms a lot earlier.

is our environment and the impact that our environment has on our hormones. So in our environment, we've got lots of what's called zen estrogens, which bind to what we call sex hormone binding globulin.

which means that your hormones cannot bind to your sex hormone binding globulin so you may have these hormones in your bloodstream but because you've got lots of these zen estrogenic um environmental impacts your estrogen isn't actually being able to isn't becoming active in the body because it cannot bind to that protein to make it active

So we need to be thinking about environmental aspects as well in perimenopause and menopause. So things like cosmetics, things like the creams and face washes and all of those things that you put on your skin. I was counting on another podcast that I did recently, how many products a woman puts on her skin before she leaves the house. And it's at least 15.

different products and if you look at the ingredients in those products it's at least 100 different chemicals that you're putting on your skin which is being absorbed into your body on a daily basis and that is having an impact on your hormones so going for natural sources of things like face wash toner moisturizer

natural deodorants natural cosmetics um you can start to think about the things that you wash your clothes with even there are so many environmental impacts plastic is another one So plastic has a really large impact on the, it's a very high zen estrogen.

So it can impact your hormones. So I always say if you're cooking food and storing it in the fridge overnight, make sure you get glass containers. And I often save a lot of my glass bottles and put a lot of my leftovers in those glass bottles. I would say that's one investment you should be making is storing your food, not in plastic, but in glass or tin.

Wow. I'm just thinking about the dinner we had yesterday and the day before, which we then put in plastic containers, which I then put in the microwave to reheat back up and then ate. oh no not the best idea wow yeah yeah is there anything so like just really quickly on that um when you talk about like the cosmetics and stuff and obviously using natural but is there anything like big things that we need to look out for or to avoid when when you're using because obviously like

I went through very ADHD. I had a bit of a hyper focus on skincare a while ago. I'd found this group of women and I joined a Facebook group and I was buying all the things. And I went through a bit of a phase of using... All sorts of, like you say, like layers and layers and layers of products before I was going out, before I was going to bed. Is there anything in particular that we should be avoiding that we can look out for on the labels? Or is it just trying to stay natural?

Yeah, try and stay natural, but things like phthalates and sulfates. But ingredients lists are incredibly difficult to read. I've just brought up there is an app.

called yukka y-u-k-a and you can scan barcodes and it gives you a rating of whether it's good or bad so it gives you a rating a scale of like zero to 100 yeah you go and scan things like dove deodorant and it gives you like a 15 bad oh wow on a product that you we have been led to believe for so many years is actually really beneficial for us so yeah I find that a really great app so if I'm ever in a store

I just scan something if I want to buy it. And if it's a green rating, I will get it. If it's orange, red, I will put it back down. i feel like there's a hyper focus coming there of me getting that up and then going through my bathroom cupboards and scanning everything i own um but yeah that's really good use it up use it up before you go and buy new things because

i mean nobody loves waste either oh absolutely yeah no i i completely agree with that yeah um cool was there anything else you wanted to add about like the hormones and perimenopause or anything like that No, I think, I mean, what we also don't often realize with hormones is...

Your body actually post-menopause has its own ability to make estrogen. So yes, your ovaries stop producing estrogen. But your adrenal glands, which is what produces your cortisol and your adrenaline, can take up some of the slack. So if you're going into menopause burnt out. your adrenal glands will not have the capacity to help support you through that transition. So just being mindful of that. And also in perimenopause, I don't know.

Yes, at the age of 39, 40, you can start to notice some perimenopausal impacts, but the same nutrients that are needed for your neurotransmitters, so specifically for ADHD. are necessary for balancing your hormones as well so the key ones are magnesium and vitamin b6 so i'd be focusing on just really supporting yourself in that way

And then in menopause, just supporting yourself from a lifestyle perspective. I mean, historically, it's a time where you need to just start scaling back in life and really just reevaluating. what you want from life and whether you can take it slower yeah yeah absolutely it's amazing I've made so many notes I was like obviously this is going to go out as a podcast I can listen to it whenever I want but I've still made loads of notes um

Okay, so that brings me quite well, actually, onto something that I want to talk about, and that's supplements. Yeah. So I remember, and I think I remembered this wrongly, actually, but the one thing I've kind of kept in my head since my uni days, which was a while ago now, but was that... And supplements, if you don't, if you have a supplement and you didn't actually need it because you've already got enough in your body, then you'll just pee it out.

I think what I've learned more recently is that's only like water-soluble vitamins and there's other ones. So you do probably have to be a bit more careful. But I take loads of supplements. in my feeling and my opinion on for me personally is that

If I don't need it, then I don't need it. But I'd rather kind of have it if I think if it might help. I mean, my main problem with this and that you can't help me with is the fact that I forget. I forget to take my supplements. So I say I take loads of supplements. I have loads set out in my little...

pill boxes for the week but actually taking them is a different thing but what's up what how do you feel about supplements do supplements have a place in the diet is there any in particular that you think people should take what what's your view on that yeah in this day and age i think supplements are key uh we don't get enough nutrients in our diets And we have so much stress in our lives and stress depletes the key nutrients that are necessary for ADHD. So if I'm talking to an ADHD community.

I would definitely be recommending supplements. And some of the key ones would, if you had to choose, I would choose something like a multi B, omega three for sure, magnesium for sure. and then potentially thinking about zinc and your zinc and copper balance. So a lot of the research has been done in children, but children with ADHD have been known to be low in zinc.

Zinc is very important for brain health and brain function. It's also important for your sense of smell and taste. So a lot of fussy or picky eaters may very well be low in zinc and supplementing with zinc may help increase.

the willingness to try new and different foods and then magnesium is another one so magnesium i love to refer to as nature's tranquilizer It may help you relax and fall asleep so especially if you are struggling with sleep magnesium is one of the key nutrients that I would say is a good one to include.

for supplementing. So I think those would be my top ones. You can get supplements that have a number of different... nutrients in them but if you start taking three or four of them you're very likely doubling up on nutrients yeah so it needs to be an individualized approach

I know we all think that, you know, one pill is going to solve all of our issues because that's what it's advertised to do. And we all believe it or want to believe it. And so we go and buy it. I think people who take supplements most definitely have a supplement cupboard and a supplement graveyard. So I think the key just is that personalization. And if you've had specific testing done.

then that personalization can be done for you. So like I said, I do genetic testing and then you can very clearly see these are the nutrients that you need. And it's unlikely, especially in ADHD, that you will be getting all the nutrients you need from your diet alone. Yeah. And then when it comes to gut health, I think we can do some support there as well. instead of probiotics there's a lot of probiotic research which again specific strains can be useful for things like poor mental health

There are specific strains called psychobiotics, so very important for that brain health and brain function. But I like to support the gut microbiome from a prebiotic. stage so prebiotics are like fertilizer for your gut bacteria

And I like to use things like prebiotics. And there's a company that I use called In Vivo Healthcare, and they've got one called BioMe Essential, which is loaded with polyphenols. It's got some ashwagandha in there, which is amazing for... um it's called an adaptogen so it really just helps balance you out emotionally um and then it's got some very high dose polyphenols in there that are just going to be really nurturing to the gut and the gut microbiome

And there's a little bit of mushrooms in that one as well. Yeah. And what was that called? Sorry. BioMe Essential. Write that down. So I do take, well, I'm not actually in the moment because I've run out, but I was taking some like mushroom extract and I really should have.

prepared for this and as I were like literally recording the podcast but it did have four mushrooms in it I know one was lion's mane or one was turkey something yeah turkey tail um I can't remember what the other two were so were they recommended yes so there is research done in mushrooms and um things like adhd and mental health i think the research in mushroom mushrooms is not

They haven't been able to research the extent of mushrooms because they don't only work on one thing. Again, it's a food, right? So it's going to be working in multiple ways. But yes, so many people have found beneficial impacts. benefits from taking things like mushrooms i personally have definitely found a benefit from it yeah but again i mean with supplements and with things like mushrooms

They're only as good as the company who makes them. The supplement industry is not regulated. So if you go pick up something off the shelf in... a supermarket or a high street store. If it says it's got a thousand units of vitamin A, for example, you cannot guarantee that that tablet that you're taking has a thousand units of vitamin A. It's not a regulated industry. A lot of companies will use cheaper fillers and binders, which are going to be rather detrimental to your health than beneficial.

Seek out someone like myself if you're thinking about taking supplements because there are specific brands that have gone through a specific manufacturing process and can prove that what they say is on the bottle is actually in the tablet. That's really interesting. That was going to be another one of my questions, actually. I get a lot of my vitamins online and actually some of them were recommended by my doctor. So I'm presuming that that's probably an OK.

um brand to use but yeah i think you know you go like we've got home bargains across the road and their supplement aisle is massive you know and there's all sorts of things there and I think it's quite easy to just think oh well it's only 99p and I get like four months worth to do that um but I didn't know it wasn't regulated that's really quite seems quite surprising

really um so that's interesting to know so i'll definitely be more wary of that in the future something that's really interesting yeah supplements come under what we call the food standards agency so it's not regulated I don't know if what your doctor recommended would be sufficient because doctors don't really study vitamins and minerals. They study drugs.

But yeah, if you look out for a nutritional therapist, they would be able to a functional medicine practitioner, they would be able to point you in the right direction. And I'm happy to give a few brands here as well. Yeah, perfect. Amazing. There was something else. So was there anything else that you wanted to talk about that was like specific with ADHD and diet? Anything else you wanted to add?

Good question. I think we've discussed a lot. And I think one of the main things that I just want to, one of the main messages I want to get out there is that you can manage ADHD naturally. And what you put in your mouth and in your body and on your body definitely should be taken into consideration. I'm not saying you need to be a chef, but you need to be conscious and cognizant of what is going on. And what's going into your body and how it's having an effect. Yeah, brilliant.

um so the last thing i actually really quickly just wanted to talk about because i again this is something i mentioned before i hit record but we were just talking you were asking me what i was drinking the tea i was drinking and i mentioned um how I'm really drinking a lot of tea at the moment because I find that I don't get thirsty so I don't drink a lot and I

I know that I'm dehydrated a lot because I suffer with headaches and I'm pretty sure that that's to do with the fact that I don't drink enough water. But you said something really interesting that it was quite common for people with ADHD to not get thirsty. So can you just tell me a bit more about that?

Yeah, so people with ADHD are known to have what's called poor interoception, which is that feeling of being hungry or not being thirsty or not needing to go to the toilet or not. And some people are just a little bit less aware of just generally what's going on inside of your body. So it's a common symptom of ADHD. And I think it's one of the reasons why a lot of people with ADHD have binge eating as well.

because you forget to eat yeah and so you get to the end of the day and you're like i just need to shove anything and everything in my mouth right now because i'm about to you know melt into the floor so if that is you You could set timers if you forget to eat or if you forget to drink. One of my clients had this lovely flashy thing on their glass which told them how much they should be drinking and by what time, you know.

By 12 o'clock, you should have finished that glass. Anything that's going to remind you to both eat and drink at, I would say, regular intervals, eating every four or five hours. Not every two or three hours because contrary to what we've been told by the food industry, we do not need to be eating six small meals a day. I always stick with three square meals.

should be sufficient yeah yeah that's that's really interesting and and try not to digress too much but i've been reading a lot recently and um A lot of people have been, because like I said, I'm going through this sort of journey of maybe, well, my GP thinks that it could be polycystic over syndrome.

and or perimenopause so we've been having a lot of conversations about my hormones and things recently and something that keeps getting recommended to me mainly by just people on the internet but something that keeps getting brought up is intermittent fasting Not a good idea in perimenopause. um because you want that progesterone in that second half of your cycle and typically that's what drops off in perimenopause because progesterone is produced by the egg that gets released

And in perimenopause, you don't necessarily release an egg every month. So you're wanting to hold on to your progesterone for as long as you can. Progesterone is the calm to the estrogen storm. So I do not recommend intermittent fasting. If it is PCOS, then I would be looking at your blood glucose balance and insulin and insulin resistance.

And I'd be looking in that area and using things like resistance training, like very good resistance training, which is essential for women as we age because you want to hold on to your bone density. um that's sort of the area that I'd be looking in intermittent fasting has got a lot of research into it. But a lot of the research, again, is in men as always. Men can find it very beneficial. I do not recommend it in women, especially in perimenopause.

Well, that's really interesting. I'm glad I brought that up. Thank you so much. Well, hopefully the listeners have found this really interesting. Like I said, I've wrote so many notes.

like a full page of notes and lots of scribbles which i'm definitely going to take away and have a think about um but yeah thank you so much for for coming on and talking through um adhd and diet i think it's really interesting um and yeah I really enjoyed it so thank you my absolute pleasure thank you for having me on no problem thank you