#19 — Getting off meds in 3 months | Carly Watson

Right, so you came to me, I think, was it December 2023? Yeah, it was right at the start of December. And why did you initially... apply for coaching with me um the medication shortage basically like i felt like i'd i had no other option really at that point and that was just for clarity

for people that might be listening outside of the UK, around, was it probably November last year? Maybe sooner, earlier than that, actually. Yeah. We had a big shortage of meds in the UK for some undescript reason. yeah it was worldwide was it worldwide okay yeah yeah because i had friends who had friends and family in other countries and they were like i'll see if i can get some and now there's just nothing anywhere really so

You went seeking an alternative solution and you stumbled upon me, but then you thought I was a bit of a dick the first time you read my stuff on the internet. Why was that? Yeah, so I had been following you for a while before that and I had signed up to your newsletter because when I first got diagnosed, I was just like, as we do, I was just researching everything and following anybody who had anything to do with ADHD in their profile.

social media linkedin whatever um so i was already getting the newsletters but it it felt to me or the decision i'd made was that you were just a bit of a dick you had you know didn't take meds for whatever reason because i didn't know the actual reason that you didn't take medication so i just presumed it was you being like hey look at me i can do it without meds like why do you need meds kind of thing um and it just

all felt a bit like how dare you sort of presume that you know and sort of imply that people shouldn't take medication when you don't know everybody's stories and everything and I just thought you were just coming

from a place and probably someone who just thought it was bad to take paracetamol and was just like... But when the medication shortage sort of came in and when I first... my first prescription that I wasn't able to get filled I was like shit like what do I do now and then I got one of your newsletters and it just the sort of top bit because I used to read them a little bit but then it just used to piss me off a little bit so I'd kind of just not read the rest.

um just because I'd made loads of assumptions about you which are obviously not correct but that's where I had gone with it um so anyway it said at the top of the of the newsletter like there's still time to apply for coaching with me for 2024 and I was like

I don't want to stop my meds. I don't want to come off them. But if I can't get them, whether it's the next month or the next year, if something is going to stop me from actually being able to take them, maybe I can learn some ways that I can deal with it when I can't get my meds.

So I applied and that was the plan. It was never to stop the meds. It was just to try and manage. But I also, when I clicked the little apply button and put my details in, in my head, I was like, I'm not actually going to do this because the guy's just going to be no good for me. But let's just hear him out. It was like I was going to give you the chance to impress me enough that I'd go with you, not the other way around kind of thing. And that's what...

It still surprises me to this day that you thought that and yet you still applied. Yeah. Was that maybe, was there anyone else talking about not using ADHD medication? Was that the reason? Yeah. Yeah. You know, like I follow. You know, a lot of people on LinkedIn and social media and they were all, you know, we can't get our meds. Like, we need our meds. No one was saying.

we can't get meds why don't we look at not taking the meds like you were the only person i'd ever seen talking about not taking medication yeah and you know i've had a lot of a lot of shit over the years for having that And it's not really a narrative because I think a lot of people listening to this probably know I can't take the meds because of the medical reasons. And so anyway, so we started coaching.

didn't we in December like and it was quite close to Christmas I think we probably only had one or two sessions before Christmas and then we had a break didn't we and then we came back again in January so how was that break over Christmas for you oh it was horrible um no without any meds or with a few meds was it or yeah so just after i i think i was i think that first session we had i'd

actually had a text or a call something from the pharmacy to say they'd got some of my meds in but I used to take 70 milligrams of L-Vans every day but they could only get um they only had one um They had 50s basically, so I wasn't going to be able to take my full dose, but they have some.

And I'm sure it was like the same day as our first meeting. And I said, I actually might be able to get some meds because I didn't believe that they would be there because there was this massive shortage. And I didn't actually think they'd have any. I thought maybe it was a mistake. Anyway, I went and they did have them. So I did. I was able to take some but it was a lot less than what I'd been taking. What I also had is a little stockpile of 20s because typical ADHD I used to forget.

The original plan was to take 15 a morning and 20 around lunchtime. I used to always forget to take my 20s. In the end, I ended up just taking 70 on a morning. But I had this little stockpile of 20s. So what I was doing is through the week... When I was working, I was taking a bit more than I was taking a bit less at the weekend because I needed it a lot more to sort of get through work. So anyway, we had our first session and I was still able to take some.

everything we spoke about like you know the cold water the meditation the breath work it was all great for like the first couple of days but then like i knew i wasn't going to be speaking to you for like three or four maybe three weeks yeah and it was christmas you know there was just so much going on i think it was really stressful and it just all kind of just fell out of my brain and i just sort of stopped doing it um

And I think as well, because I'd had some meds, it was a little bit easier to give up on it as well, because it wasn't as hard as it would have been if I'd have got no meds. I think I definitely was one of the lucky ones.

Throughout the whole thing, I was actually able to get my hands on a little bit. I think it was only a week or two that I didn't actually have any meds. Right. Yeah, because I think I was off for quite a bit in... early part of january for ronnie's birthday i think up to maybe 11th or 12th of january i think yeah so it was quite some time and then we obviously reconvened and it was like i think we kind of had to start again didn't we yeah but then what happened

Because there was a transformation that happened from that point, right? Yeah. So I was, I'd still, like I said, I still got some meds. So I was taking a little bit. I think by that point, but I definitely started to run out again. So I was taking less and I think some days I was only able to take 20, which wasn't really doing anything. But yeah, we started again, so I did a bit of a reset.

So I was doing the cold showers, I was doing the meditation and breath work. And I think it was, was it sort of mid-January that you started the accountability, the meditation accountability group? Because that was a massive... turning point for me I think because I was doing the meditation on my own and I was trying my best to do it every day and sometimes like twice a day if I could

But it was still difficult because I still had to get myself into a literal space to do it. I had to get into the mindset. You know, I had to, you know, thinking about how to log on for work and walk the dogs and all these different things. So when you invited me to that. I think you'd been doing it maybe a week before I actually joined, but that was just amazing to have a seven every morning. Even though I didn't have to log on and join it, I wanted to.

And it gave me that accountability. But also once I'd started it, I'm very much a person who doesn't want to then miss a session. I want to be at every single one so I can say, well, I went to every single one of them. So that's good for me because I stuck to it. So, yeah, that was a massive, massive turning point. And actually doing that every day was helping me so much. And I was doing all the cold showers and everything as well at that point. So I think by...

I don't know, maybe end of January. I think I'd got up to about three minutes in my shower. And it's funny, though, because I remember at the time being like so proud of myself and thinking that was so great. But then I eventually. I measured the temperature of the water just to see exactly how cold it was and it just really wasn't that cold at all. So I hadn't really conditioned myself to experience like...

The water I dip in now is just so much colder. Like it was eight degrees this morning. And I think the shower turned out to be like 15, 16 degrees. It wasn't even that cold, but I was doing it.

And then the other big thing that changed really was... Like I was really keen on the water stuff and I was really keen to start like wild swimming and outdoor swimming just as a hobby as well. So that was a really big thing for me and obviously doing all the cold showers. and you teaching me how to do that on all the breathing and everything. And then at the end of February, I was going on a retreat. I'd never been on a proper retreat before. I didn't really know what to expect.

But one of the things that they did was cold water swimming. And this was in the Lake District. So that's really struck me. I was like, brilliant. This is an opportunity to put it all into practice as well with all the cold showers and everything.

And we had, I don't know if you remember, but we had a conversation. The plan was, was to just not have any meds for that weekend because I was going to be obviously out in the middle of nowhere, nature, doing the cold water swimming. There was no pressure to...

get anything done at work or anything like that and then i would come back and i would go i think we'd said i would just go back onto 40 milligrams a day from the monday when i got back and just slowly see if i can wean myself off i should probably add at this point as well that the more we spoke and it was only between really so middle of January to sort of the middle of February when we properly did the restart and I was properly committed to

learning how to cope without the meds but again still at the beginning of January I wasn't saying that was going to come off the meds but over those sort of three or four weeks I think we spoke we spoke a lot as well about the side effects I had from my meds and what they actually did to me and it was almost like we'd written we didn't actually write it down but it was almost like we would be able to put together this pros and cons list

And the cons just absolutely massively outweighed the pros. I would feel good for a bit and I would get a bit more done, but I felt so bad on the meds, which I can go into in more detail in a bit. At the nearer this retreat got and I knew I was going to have this gap, I was starting to think, well, maybe I just don't need the meds. Maybe it's just not worth it. Maybe all this stuff I'm learning with Jo will actually be enough to manage.

So I went on the retreat and I mean, that was in itself was just an amazing experience. It was fab, but there was another lady there that had ADHD and me and her just kept getting into trouble, which was fantastic fun. did the cold water swimming and um so the 22nd of february was the date that i went on the retreat so 21st of february was the the last time i took any ments because when i came back on the monday i was just like

Well, I'm just going to not have any. I'm just going to see how I go. And then the next day I was like, well, I didn't have any yesterday and I was all right. I'm just not going to have any, see how I go. And then that was it. And I haven't taken any medication since then.

And this was, I should probably add as well at this point, I'd been taking them solidly pretty much for two years. And it was around the two-year mark when the shortage hit. So, you know, I'd been on them a long time. And... So you'd gone on, you started with cold showers, you'd been doing meditation every single day. You've still come to more of those accountability groups than anybody else. And some people are pretty regular, but you're the most regular.

Then you obviously graduate to an ice bath, right? And what's that doing? You know, it's doing part of or a lot of what the ADHD medication is doing, but without the side effects. So I very specifically remember you. coming off the meds, coming back from that retreat and feeling alive. Like you looked different. Yeah. How did you feel inside? Amazing.

um we so the one of the we did two swims while i was there one of them was in lake holds water which was which was great it was a great experience it was my first proper wild swim and it was fantastic but the next day we climbed up a small mountain but we climbed up side of this mountain and on the way back we found this like plunge pool in this little stream river that was coming down the side of the mountain and it was it was a hell of a lot colder.

than Ullswater had been. And this was February, late February, so it wasn't warm. And we did a dip there. And I don't know, I can almost, I can remember. almost to the sort of second where something just clicked in my head and I was in the pool and I remember getting out and I just...

I was trying to get dry and thinking about getting dressed. There was no one else around apart from the ladies on the retreat and I just sort of passed my phone to one of the girls behind me and I was like take a picture of me and I ran up this tiny little bit of a hill.

no clothes on just my woolly hat and my neoprene socks and just stood like this with my back to her so um and just to take a picture of me and i just felt so alive and I did I felt really empowered and I just was like I just fucking got in this plunge pool and it's absolutely freezing and I've done this I'm not on my meds and I just yeah I that changed that was it then something changed in me

And I do talk about this a lot, and I think it's really important to say that I still have bad days. It wasn't like my life was just fixed from that moment, but something definitely changed for the better.

And it was amazing. And I now have that photo as well to remember that exact moment when that happened and when I changed, definitely. And how important do you think cold water is to... getting off medication or at least managing ADHD without medication? For me, I couldn't have done it without it. I think the mix of the meditation and the cold water, like I don't think one would have been enough for me. It needed to be both.

but I think the meditation is really good it takes you into a space where you can you know my mind's still always buzzing but it's a hell of a lot quieter than it used to be but the cold water it's that burst of well you know it does things to you doesn't it you know it gives you a massive massive boost of dopamine and it is like that boost every day that kind of wakes me up

and sets me up for the day but it's very similar to the meds where it's it's short-lived it doesn't last forever so i do it every single day but at the end of the day when the cold water's starting to wear off i don't feel sick I don't feel tired. I've not got mouth ulcers because so what the meds gave me this thing where I was running my tongue along the back of my teeth all day and I started to get really bad mouth ulcers and at first I didn't actually realise what it was.

I thought maybe it was because it can make you have a bit of a dry mouth, but I realised, because after I got used to them a little bit, the dry mouth wasn't as bad, but I realised it was me running my tongue. I mean, let's just be honest. no different to gurning on mdma is it yeah it's literally like that it's well it's you're putting almost the same substance in your body it's like you're doing it every day exactly

You know, and it was horrible and, you know, I couldn't sleep and then I'd have broken sleep and whatever. That doesn't happen with the cold water. I don't even really notice it sort of wear off. It just... You know, my day gets slightly slower and things as a normal day probably does anyway. And by the evening, sometimes I'm absolutely shattered after a day of working, but my job takes a lot from me anyway.

But it's just tiredness. It's just normal what probably other people feel like at the end of the day. It's not coming off some drugs that I had that morning. Exactly. Yeah. So...

Sometimes very upset people retaliate to my posts on social media when I talk about ice baths and say there's no scientific evidence that this is good for ADHD or whatever. I always reply with the same thing. It's not saved in my computer, but I might as well save it because I just write the same words. I say, there may not be scientific evidence, but you try telling someone who takes ice baths that it doesn't work.

Okay, so what would you say to that person or those people? Because it's happened several times. It's funny you say that, actually, because I put a post on my Instagram the other day. and I wanted to talk a little bit more about the sort of science behind the ice baths and there isn't a lot out there. There is some, there definitely is some stuff out there, but there's not a lot. And ADHD specific as well is a lot less. But I put all this stuff on about, you know.

dopamine and all these other things that I can't pronounce so I'm not going to try and say because I'll probably say them wrong and I put all these facts and figures and things in there but then the last sort of little square on my Instagram post was if you want to find out more, then go do your own research. This is just the bits that I've got. I said, however, I know this works because it works for me and I've done it and I've been through it. And that's what I would say.

You know, if someone turned around tomorrow and said, actually, all the signs that is out there, it's all wrong. It's not a fact. I will still do it because it does do that for me. It absolutely works. I am a thousand percent a different person. to who I was at the end of last December you know I was pretty fucking miserable as well you know and the meds made the days bearable but there were so many other things that they did as well that just

It was just not a fun life. It was shit. And like I said before, I still have bad days and everything, but the ice baths every single morning for me has absolutely changed my life. Absolutely. I'm so happy to hear that, honestly.

Going back to the side effects again, what else was happening? I remember you being really hot all the time. Yeah, all the time. Again, right, let's be honest with each other, that's the same.

let's take it 100 right now speed it's exactly the same yeah yeah but when you're in a club and you're you know 18 19 20 whatever and you're off your face you don't really care because everyone around you sway but for me when I'm going to London for with work and I'm in these important business meetings and I am

absolutely drenched in sweat I'm like I remember going to a meeting um it was only back in February actually and I was that was one of the last weeks where I took the most of my meds because I knew I had this week in London and I was training people and I walked into the room and I don't see my colleagues a lot because we're 100% remote so we we have away days and things but I don't see them very often and I walked in and

One of the guys I've worked really closely with was like, oh, Carleen wanted to come give me a hug. And I just went, do not touch me because I was wet through, like my back was wet through and I'm wearing my nice office clothes and I've put my makeup on. But by the time I got there, I just was a sweaty mess.

I remember him saying, because I'm quite open about everything as well, not just my idiot. I'm always really open about everything. So I said, do not touch me. I am really sweaty. It was like, I don't care. I don't care. But he might not have done, but I did.

I did. It was so embarrassing and I absolutely hated it. And that happened all the time. You know, we'd have to go to meetings in other offices and they'd be like, right, we'll get the tube. And I'm like, I can't do it because I have to walk down the stairs.

but and then get on a hot tube then when I get off the tube I've got to go back up the stairs and then we've got to walk to this office and the actual walking might have been like two minutes each time but by the time I get there I have to stand outside for like And it wasn't just two, three minutes. It'd be like 20 minutes to finally cool down. And it was just the worst.

But that was also happening on a night. I was getting like night sweats and that was causing me to have like really bad sleep. I'd struggle to, I'd wake up and I'd be wet through. So my sheets are wet, I'm wet and I have to get up and get changed. Or sometimes...

I just wouldn't bother because I'd be so exhausted. But then I'd be freezing because I was wet to start with. And then I've cooled down because of that. I also got a lot of headaches, really bad headaches. I've struggled with headaches my whole life. um but they were just they were definitely made worse by the meds and they've definitely improved as well since i came off them um

Like I said, the ulcers in my mouth were just so painful and so sore and they just wouldn't go. As soon as one healed, I got another one. And also you do get quite a dry mouth as well to start with when you first take them. So yeah, there was lots of not so fun things that were happening. You know, it's interesting you say that because a lot of the...

people that I work with, Elvance seems to be the one with the least side effects. And a lot of people will be on something like Ritalin, for example, and having the most... severe side effects similar to what you're actually describing and then be put on LVANCE and it improves a bit it doesn't last because like any stimulant medication the body gets used to it so it requires a higher and higher dose now

I've been taking ice baths for years now and I've not felt a dip in my feeling or buzz or boost in norepinephrine, which is the hard to pronounce. hormone that's stimulated when you take an ice bath alongside dopamine and some other things and I just I can't sing its praises enough

So going back again, so for someone who's interested in this, you started with regular cold showers, right? So that's like pulling the low hanging fruit off the tree. You've really got to take those baby steps to begin with, haven't you? Yeah, definitely. So, and it's not a problem if it's just 15 degrees Celsius, is it? It's okay. So you start, what did we start off? Was it 10 seconds? I think the first time. But you quickly increased it, didn't you? I think. I did, yeah, because I just...

I was, I think as well, and I'm like this with most things, I was desperate for it to work and I needed something. I was so scared about not being able to have any meds. I didn't know how I'd cope with my life over the last... three years I've kind of worked up in my career and I've got myself to a position into a job that I really like but it's quite senior and I was absolutely petrified that I would lose that and I would lose my job because I wouldn't realise how I just can't even

cope with like normal daily life never mind a full-time you know senior job so I was desperate for it to work so I did move up quite quickly with the culture but I'm glad I did because it is one of those things where it's it's really difficult and it's really horrible but you just have to do it you know I just for me and I've I've

being around people who have been in ice water and like outdoor swimming and stuff and they're like, take it slowly, focus on your breathing. Yes, 100% focus on your breathing, but for me, it's an it game. Because if I get up to back my knees and realise how cold it is, I won't go in any further. I agree. I just have to do it. Yeah. So what we recommend here is 10 seconds the first week, 20 seconds the next week, 30 seconds after that.

40 seconds the fourth week, up to six weeks, then start increasing by 30 seconds per week after that. People are very welcome to go faster if they want to. Do that. Anyone can do that. Anybody. Because... you know like after a while not only does the body get used to it it becomes enjoyable doesn't it yeah it's not like it's not torture forever it just is a little bit and you crave it

you want it as well after a while and especially when you when you start when i for me anyway when i first started doing it because i was doing less like i would get some effect from it but it didn't last as long as like it does now after i've had a 10 minute ice bath in the morning um

So I craved it. And there were days where I'm like, I want to go get a cold shower. Like, that to me is just absolute nonsense. Like, you know, if you'd have told me this a year ago, I'd have been like, no, I will ever be that person. I don't like being cold. I don't like being wet. Like, it's just not.

me um but i was craving it and even when we had the slightly warmer weather earlier i was having a couple of ice baths a day as well because i was warm but it was amazing it was it was helping because then my productivity in the afternoon

was just so improved yeah and one thing that a person can do is they could they could build themselves up to an ice bath and do that first thing in the morning they can always take a cold shower at like 1 30 in the afternoon if they were lucky enough to work remotely yeah okay wonderful so what else were you doing so it wasn't just ice bath and it wasn't just meditation there's more too yeah so i've i've um really looked at my diet

um and like my fitness and things like that so i'd got to a point even even when i was on all the meds and everything that i was just eating i mean i've always been a comfort eater it's just always something i've done but it was getting worse and worse And I was having a really hard day and I was basically rewarding myself with...

shit to eat on an evening and I remember saying I've been working with a doctor recently I remember saying to him that like I would literally say to myself you deserve this ice cream you've had a bad day and that's how I you know that's how I lived my life

But after speaking to you and sort of realising that it's not just about the meditation and the cold water because I was unhealthy. I'd got to a point where I was just so miserable and everything was so difficult that I wasn't looking after myself anymore.

And I'd got to a point, there were a couple of times just before Christmas where I could look back and it'd been like three weeks since I'd even left the house. And I'm talking going out in the garden. I'd not... left the you know the what the four walls of my house for like three weeks and I'd that's just not good for anybody and there's just you know there's just no reason for it and I'd realized that I was in a really bad place so

I really, really started to focus on that. And I remember when in our first session you said to me, what is it you want? What do you actually want from the end of this? And I said, I just want to be able to get up on a morning and be normal. And, you know, what I meant by that was what would be normal for me, which is to just actually get up at a reasonable time in the morning and be able to get up and walk the dogs, have breakfast and just be a normal human being that isn't like...

I mean, to be honest, my first meeting on a morning is at 10 past nine and I was just joining it from my phone in bed. I wasn't even, I mean, I literally, I work at home. It's like.

i don't know 10 steps from my bedroom to my office but i couldn't even make that i just joined the meeting on my phone in bed keep my camera off because i just couldn't do it um but yeah so i focused on getting up on a morning um changing my diet so i've i'm eating a lot less processed food a lot more fruit and veg the sort of usual stuff a lot less carbs a lot more protein um seeds and nuts and things like that

and then exercise is definitely been the slowest thing but I think for me the first the main step that the first step that I need to take was to go outside. just to just to get outside so now I walk the dogs with Oliver and I try and walk with him twice a day but sometimes due to work that doesn't always happen if I'm in a meeting and things but if I can I will and I do. And that's made a massive difference as well. With anything.

You have to look after yourself, don't you? Whatever it is that you're struggling with, whether it's ADHD or an illness or whatever, if you're actually just not looking after yourself, nothing's ever going to be that easy. So you can do a million ice baths a day, but if you're just... unwell and unhealthy then it's not really going to make a difference like the body requires the nutrients from healthy food for it to survive and for it to thrive even more probably the better word to use there

And yeah, I'm sure you can survive on McDonald's, but it's going to kill you in the end. Yeah. Let's be honest. Yeah. And, you know, a lot of people with ADHD have poor diets for understandable reasons. No judgment. And it is tough to live with ADHD. So we will often use food as a reward if either something went well or more likely if something went badly. Yeah, 100%.

And it becomes a habit that's really difficult to kick. But it does not take long of eating well, like basically the foods you've just described, to start feeling different quite quickly. But we shouldn't be surprised about this because... No.

it's literally fueling the body so okay so and what about supplements yeah so um i i take some supplements um we spoke about this i asked like is there anything i need to do So you suggested some and I make sure that I take them with full fat yogurt as well. I have them with full fat yogurt in the morning, which is something you shared with me that I should be able to absorb them a little bit better if I take them.

So I do that. I take quite a few different ones. I've also been working with a doctor. So he's had a couple that were suggested to me. And one of the things that he actually had some blood tests taken and we found out that my iron levels were really low. not just my sort of normalist, but my iron stars were like basically non-existent. That's one of the main supplements I'm looking at at the moment. And it's like five times the normal recommended amount of iron strain.

increase my iron stores because that should help a lot with how tired I feel all the time um you know but that's I've got to this point because of poor diet and poor decisions you know with my food and everything um

So I'm definitely feeling, I'm not the fittest I've ever been, but I definitely feel that if I'm honest, I feel the healthiest I've ever been. And I know I'm making... good choices like we said we had fish and chips for tea on saturday my niece came over we had fish and chips because i'm absolutely still allowed to have fish and chips it's absolutely okay and we ate loads and it's fine you know but that's because

you are still allowed to eat those foods. It's just not a good idea to eat them every day, you know. I will actually add something here. So I learned this, don't quote me on this, but I read something and it's not from a dodgy source or anything that actually...

to walk five kilometres or three kilometres or seven, whatever, however many kilometres, it burns the exact same calories as it takes to run the same distance, to run 5k. That sounds... wrong right well why is it true because it takes three times longer to walk that distance or even four times longer perhaps so you're walking four times longer or three times longer than you are running so running burns more calories per minute than

walking but if you walk for longer it balances so it's not like if you want to go and get fit in pursuit of managing ADHD without medication which I'm assuming that's why you're listening Talking to the listener now, not you. I'm still getting over this damn cold. So, the... You just go out for a walk. 30 minutes a day. I don't think you need more than that. Just do it and see how that makes a difference. I always say to people as well, try going for a walk without headphones on.

You can if you want, but I've said this to so many people and I get messages on social media all the time from people who have religiously gone out with a podcast to walk for an hour and then come back and missed every single thing around them. and then they'll go out without headphones on and it's like a revelation for them because they hear all the sounds they're fully present and that in a way is a form of meditation and in fact

Listening to music, or not so much music, but a podcast in particular whilst walking is a little bit like escapism, which I'm not judging. Escapism is important. However, from a healing perspective, it's...

kind of counterintuitive yeah doesn't work that well so um right so could you explain just briefly how your life is different now from how it was five months ago six months ago when you were still taking medication it's it's it's almost I want to say it's completely different, but it isn't because my life's still my life and, you know, I still have the same job and everything. But there's been such a shift that it almost feels like...

my life's completely different because I'm just, everything feels easier. I'm happier. I think my relationships are better. um with with my partner um i think i'm better at work um you know i i've always i mean Obviously ADHD is something that you've had for a long time. It's not like it just appeared over the last couple of years, but since my diagnosis, you know, it's helped me make sense of my...

of a lot of my life and why I was a certain way, you know, my school was like it was, whatever. But when I took the meds, it very much was, it felt like I was trying to stop that. And I wanted to stop that. I didn't want to be that person. And I wanted that all to just go away. And I wanted to manage, but not... I didn't want Carly then to manage with life. I wanted a new Carly to...

to do these things and I wanted the sort of ADHD Cali to not be there and to go away. And it kind of feels like now that I'm still the same Cali I was prior to sort of even my diagnosis and being on meds. but that I'm just unable to manage things myself, not because a drug. is masking all these things I don't feel like it takes away my ADHD symptoms I don't feel like I'm masking anything I just feel like my life is lighter and things are just easier now

does that make sense 100 it really does and and let's talk about the next phase of your life now then so from everything you've learned in the last six months and how your life has changed in the ice baths and meditation and diet and the list goes on What do you want to do with all of that? You've been inspired. Not by me, but by your own transformation.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, like obviously you were the one who helped me get to where I was. I reached out to you and you introduced me to these things, but you're not here with me every day. You know, we were meeting once a week, then that went down to once every two weeks.

I am extremely proud of what I've been able to manage. And honestly, maybe this is just an ADHD thing, but I never thought I'd do it because I spent my whole life with people telling me that I wouldn't amount to anything. I wouldn't ever manage anything. said i was going to go to uni like everybody said well you won't do it you won't last i did only probably just to prove them wrong but yeah you know i i am a quitter and i have always found things difficult to follow through um

But I have followed through with this and my life is just so much better. And I just want to share that with others. And I think I came from a place where, well, you're a bit of a dick. Not taking meds is just ridiculous. Why would you not take meds if you need them? That was my opinion. And I still feel like that.

I know you feel the same, like I'm not going to judge anyone who chooses to take medication if that makes their life easier. But what I want to share with people is that you don't have to if you don't want to. And if you're looking for an alternative, I am literally like the walking advertisement for that. And I did that in, what, six months? You know, and I still have a long way to go and I still have things I want to improve and, you know, whereas I want to make my life easier.

Jesus Christ, it's just an absolute, it's just so different to what it was. And I just want to help people, even if they can just, you know, get a tiny bit of what I've managed to get, then, you know, I think it could change their lives like it did mine. yeah you absolutely can you know there's only one person so far that i've not been able to get help get off meds that's come to me and that they were taking 110 milligrams a day wow yeah

I mean, that's more than the recommended. Yeah, well, it's fine. I don't know whether it would be classed as illegal, but I think it is. Yeah. Certainly, the doctors would never recommend that. I mean, he was not well. like not physically from i started on 30 milligrams and i was very it was a like honestly the first couple of days was a bit like like the first time i ever took drugs so i was like this is amazing i feel great wow and then

honestly it was a week and a half by the time that was already starting to wear off so I went up to 50 then I was on 70 which was the max they said they could give me but that you know that didn't last two years it was two years until I couldn't get the meds and I was looking at doing something different but If they'd have given me more, I would have just continued to take more. And I think it would have been the same thing. And I think you could easily go up to a lot more than that.

god knows what else it would be doing to you but it does it absolutely wears off so i'm not surprised and i'm sure there are many people out there who are taking a lot more than 70 because they just can't cope no and Yeah, that actually frightens me to death. What I always say is if the benefits outweigh the risks to you as an individual, then just go ahead. I'm not here to tell you not to. You are an individual human being. You get to decide, not me.

I just put out my experience and the experiences of people I work with to try and give people the confidence that you don't actually have to take these medications if you don't want to. If you do, then I'm probably just... and they'll be the same for you with your next step in life, is they're just not for us. There are many, many, many ADHD coaches out there who will assist you alongside your medication.

If you come to us, that's not what we're about. We're about helping people who either don't take medication or want to get off medication. It's specifically tailored to that. And therefore, it's going to be if you're, you know, slightly, if you're... upset about that then it's going to be difficult to stomach some of the things that we say it's going to be quite tough and very direct the actual approach so so you're going to become a coach that's the big news yeah

right tell us a little bit about um why you've decided to go for that you know it's it's funny as well because when we first spoke about it like it It was almost like I was like, oh, I've not thought about that before. But it was also like everything in my life had kind of been working up to this moment. Every job I've ever had.

I've always, and I've worked in call centres, I've worked in offices, I've, I don't know, I've once worked in an ice cream, well, and it was an ice pop packing factory, actually. Oh my gosh. Which you do when you're very young and you need a job. almost every job I've had, I've always stayed towards helping people.

So, you know, whether that's training in call centres, being a coach, I do mentoring outside of work and I used to teach code as well. And I've done a lot of things and a lot of these are like. sort of volunteer things because I've always just been interested in helping people and supporting people so it it was just it was like I said it was like this light bulb moment where it was almost like why had I already thought of this

But I think the difference as well between you and I, we've had experiences with the meds. And you have a particular reason why you can't take them, a medical reason. I took them. And I know how bad it was for me now. And I know where I am now and how much better my life is without the meds. You know, I think there's an awful lot of coaches out there who will be pro meds, but they've never actually taken them. You know, we've lived this experience.

I can talk about things that I have an opinion on and try and coach and share things. But, you know, unless you've actually lived it, I'm just not sure that's the right place for you. But I have lived this and I know it works. And I just think it makes absolute sense for me to then, you know, just continue. And I feel a bit like, you know, I sort of pay it forward. You know, I was lucky to have met you and to have had this experience and to be where I am. And I want to.

pay that forward to other people well it's a little bit like those people who um say there's no scientific evidence for or little scientific evidence that ice baths affect adhd and now compassionately for them yeah there isn't much But what I would say to you is get in one then. Yeah. Just get in one. Then you'll know. And experience trumps whatever's in that probably manipulated scientific document. Yeah. So...

And I think one thing to bear in mind when you do go out on this journey, obviously we're going to be doing it together, is that you are independent, but we're going to be partnering, is that probably... The less that we can talk about the science behind things, the better. Really, I've learned. Because there is just such little trustworthy science out there, aside from physics, really.

because it's often not verifiable one way or the other. So when you find someone who's done something directly from their own personal experience and you're the type of person who's willing to... to take a punt on something and just try i think you'll get a long way with the drug-free route and you know i can't i can't prove that when i got in

the ice bath that my dopamine increased by, what is it, like 500% or something. I can't prove that because I don't have things attached to operate to show that that's happened. But I can tell you how I felt. When I did my first dip in the cold water, specifically in Ullswater, I got out and honestly, the only way I can describe it is almost like my vision was perfect. I don't have bad vision.

I mean, it's not quite 2020, but it is fine. I don't have, you know, I don't need to wear glasses all the time or anything. But it was light and it was because this fog had cleared. That to me is enough. You know, I don't care why it did that.

and what was actually happening in my brain because it doesn't really matter because whatever it is, it did happen and I felt amazing. And the rest of that day, I was just like so alert and I was... just in myself as well if that makes sense like it was like all my sentence my senses had heightened and it was just and that's enough for me

that is like you stop seeking a lot of the problem with adhd is someone like i don't feel well inside the voice in my head is very very frantic more than the average person's the voice in my head is telling me i i need something and if i get that thing i will be happy and then my

voice will be quiet because it gets what it wants that's basically adhd like in a nutshell well uh the funny thing about taking an ice bath is it's almost like it's giving you everything you need so you like you stop like

striving so much for things on the outside because you're like well i'm already whole and complete within myself i don't need to stretch for that thing over there and you think and a lot of people will say to me then and this is exactly the same thing that happens when you meditate a lot and

People will say, well, won't you just become like a lazy bum? It's like, no, actually the exact opposite happens because you end up wanting to share that with others. Yeah. And it's almost like your energy raises to the point where... you are able to do things you couldn't previously do and part of that is because you're not thinking about yourself as much and

In many ways, ADHD is a little, it's like, I've said this before and got in trouble, but it's like a thought addiction. Like you're just addicted to your own thoughts. So much so that they are in control of you. And as we've said time and time again, you are not the voice of the mind. You are the one who hears it. So you are taking advice from a madman or a mad lady. And the data set that...

the data it has to make those decisions is exceptionally limited. So if you think about all the experiences you've had in life, all of us, just one individual then, let's say, all the books you've read, all the... films you've watched, all the TV shows you've watched, all the places you've been on holiday, all the experiences, everything. Okay, now think of all the books you didn't read, all the films you didn't watch, all the movies you didn't watch, all the...

TV shows, all the places you didn't go to, every moment you didn't experience. That's all the other data you could use to make a decision. Therefore, the data is nothing. It's nothing. And that's not to say that your own personal experience of managing ADHD without medication is not amazing. However, the... using our own mind to make a decision to make ourselves feel good it's no wonder that it doesn't work very often so

better off just sticking yourself in an ice bath and seeing how that feels. Yeah, 100%. And not thinking about it. Not thinking about it. Just going, yeah. You just know, don't you? It's really hard to talk about this because... it's in some respects that it's indescribable like it's annoying like people who go in ice baths they just like nod at each other yeah yeah absolutely you know yeah and and it's

All I've been doing since I started is saying to everybody, you need to get an ice bath. Trust me, it'll be worth it. You should do this. And they're all like, no, you'd never catch me in one. And they're like, but why? Why are you saying that to me? And all I can say usually is you'll know once you've done it.

I actually can't explain it in a coherent way. You just need to get in and then you tell me what you think. Well, the people that are interested now, like, right, listener, okay. Go and get in a hot shower.

now right after listening to this feel what it feels like it's nice oh yeah you probably feel like as carly was describing maybe a little fuzzy in the head like things aren't so bright right now turn it fully cold stick your head under 10 seconds maybe 20 seconds if you're feeling brave now just look at the room look at the bathroom it'll be completely different it'll be bright buzzing totally different

now times that by a thousand and that's being in an ice bath yeah and it's yeah that's the best sales spiel i can come up with right now so just do it yeah go do it honestly you won't regret it i mean i've got a couple of i have managed to get a couple of friends into it you know people without adhd as well you know i'm like you'll still absolutely love it and they do and oliver does it as well my partner does it with me every day

most days he probably does it 95% of the time so as we've said from everything you've gone through in the last six months from everything you've learned from me from the doctor from the ice bath people from the retreat people everything you've learned from your own experience from your own meddling and your own self experimentation you are now putting all of that together in one

coaching package to help people do exactly what you've done and you are accepting applications for that now so tell us a bit more about that and where people come to So my Instagram is Wild Minds Wellness. And my website is wildmindswellness.org. And you'll find my application form on my Instagram bio and also on the website.

What I'm offering as well is just a quick 30-minute call at the start to just check that, you know, not only do you think that I'm right to help you, but also for me to... make sure that i'm the right person to help you as well um so yeah um you can book and that's a free 30 minute chat just an intro um and then we can look at booking in some sessions if we're both happy and that's where you will find me

Wicked. And the email that you will have been sent to listen to this podcast, or those of you who subscribe to the newsletter, if you're not, go to drugfreeadhd.org. You'll be able to find a link that takes you directly to Carly's booking form. So go there.

and apply right before we finish is there anything else that you wanted to mention or talk about or no i don't think so i just think um like you said you know if you're thinking about coming off medication or just as cold water therapy as a thing just try it you know turn that shower have a really nice warm shower be really nice and comfortable and warm and then just turn it to cold and just see how that feels

And like you said, that feeling that you get, that sort of glimmer, times that by a thousand and that's what it can be like for you. And yeah, I just hope that I can help people like you've helped me. amazing thank you joe as well my pleasure thank you very much right see you in a bit cool bye