#16 — Mindfulness for ADHD | Amy Polly

So I meet many, many people with ADHD now, both online and off. And I mention meditation to them almost every single time, mostly because they're asking me how I'm managing my ADHD without medication. 99% of the time, the reaction is, I can't meditate. My mind's too busy. And I just want it to shut up. Now, I know that's not what meditation is about. And I know you know that.

But can you explain that to the listener? Because I'm sure there's a lot of people listening right now that would be in that 99%. Yeah, I hear it a lot as well. Even people that don't have ADHD, but I think one of the big things is that... There are these misconceptions around that we see in the media and stuff. I don't think anybody is, I would say a lot of those people haven't actually had a conversation about it.

They don't really know much about it. It's just the things that we see in the media and social media. I've seen it before where it says about emptying your mind in reference to mindfulness. I was so angry. I think I did a post about it because I saw it on the television. And the thing is, we just have to keep busting these misconceptions. Like I always say.

your mind will rarely be empty if ever it will be empty like if your mind is empty you're dead like that is a very hard thing to to find that space but that is not what meditation and mindfulness is about so i Just side note, don't just talk about meditation. I talk about mindfulness because mindfulness is like the day to day. We can have an informal mindfulness practice. Mindfulness includes meditation. So mindfulness can be practiced.

anytime, anywhere, every day. And then meditation is when we formally decide to go and sit down and consciously choose to do something for a certain amount of time, a meditation of some type. The thing about mindfulness and meditation is that it's about how we engage with the thoughts. It's not about getting rid of them.

And, you know, when I start week one of my eight week course and I say to people, mindfulness means awareness. You're doing it all the time. We're just really distracted. And we're going to start being aware of the world around us and the thoughts within us and our relationship to them. They're like.

oh oh no one's ever explained it to me like that before and i'm like boom we're in yeah done amazing and you can see straight away why that's an enormous benefit to people with adhd because we're so like lost in the thoughts that are just constantly chipping away at us all day long a huge amount of those being negative and like yeah to be honest i'd been meditating for years well seven years and the first three i was like i don't even know why i'm doing this

I know that it's making me feel more calm. I know that I feel a bit more centered. I know that I'm not flying off the handle when someone says something to me, but I don't know why I'm doing it. And it wasn't until three years ago or so where I learned what you've just said.

which is like, okay, it's about having a different relationship with the thought. The way that I think about it is that I am creating a separation between me and the thought. Yes, it literally gives you the ability to unhook from your thoughts.

It does take practice. It's not like mindfulness, meditate, boom. You can have it from your thought. It does take practice. But absolutely, you can start to... question your thoughts and you can question the reality that you're painting you can question the things that you can change or can control or can't change or can't control it's so empowering to be able to just almost have That conversation with yourself, that awareness, it's amazing.

but it takes practice. It is amazing. Yeah, because on your website, you wrote this, which I love so much. You said, I wanted to rebel against this empty your mind bullshit and create my own realistic and down-to-earth mindfulness-based approach to mental health.

health and well-being right so what where do you think that comes from this whole empty your mind it must be empty must be empty all the time and like nobody can do that like you've said so not even no you you even read stories of the most enlightened and highest yogis of all time and they'll tell you that they still have thoughts it's not about that i literally i do not know where that has come from because so i've had a couple of teachers um one of them was um

a buddhist monk and i've never i've never he didn't ever say that to me i've never heard anyone say that uh so i i do not know where it's come from but like i said um I saw that campaign that was talking about emptying your mind and I just thought, I just don't know where this is coming from and why people keep saying it. But it is bullshit. And I think it makes it really inaccessible for people because like you say, you have that question, you know.

I can't meditate because I can't empty my mind. And that's the end of it. So they're not going to even try because that's what they think it is. And that makes me really, really sad because it's amazing. It's an amazing practice.

And I always say I'm like the gateway drug to the world of meditation. That's how I sort of see myself. You don't know where that journey is going to take you. You get really deep and really spiritual. But I'm the beginning bit. I'm the let me tell you what it really is.

me give you some things that you can start doing straight away and let me help you to practice for a little while so you can start to create a bit of a habit because it really does take time but you will see the benefits straight away it's just that you don't know why probably Do you know what I mean? Like you were saying, I'm not sure why. That comes with time as well. Because that's what we need. We need people like you. Was the word you used a gateway drug?

that's exactly what we need because it's like Okay. Let's talk about it now. Right. On Friday, I wrote a post on LinkedIn, which some people got very upset with. And I totally understand why, because I used some terminology, which is used in spirituality, in deep meditation. That is.

very ambiguous and it has multiple different meanings and I so I use the word transcend and people what people thought I meant was sort of heal themselves from ADHD that isn't what I meant at all what I really meant was and I should have just explained it, was to go above the part... where go above my mind basically and witness it from another place that was what i meant and be just have a break from it and as i was doing it

As I came back into my mind again, I noticed that the ADHD was affecting me at the level of my mind and at the level of my body, but not at the level that I had gone to, at the transcender to. Again, I don't want to use the word because it's too confusing.

further down the path of meditation there are lots of words like transcend that are very confusing and when people read them before they've done what you're talking about they'll go what the fuck is this i'm not gonna do it and that's what the mistake i made because i posted it on linkedin with a generalized audience most people that don't meditate like what the fuck's he talking about so

We really need what you're doing like big time. And that's a, you know, that's a lesson again, like in real time, in something that's very dear to my heart, very important to me is making things. accessible and inclusive. Now, that is a post, one post on LinkedIn about your experience that ain't that deep. No offence, Joseph.

But if someone's come in on an eight week course, you know, we do have to be a bit careful about the language that we use and we do have to be a bit careful about the experiences that we're sharing. I am a very different mindfulness teacher. take someone a while to even get to that space if they ever do um

But what it all comes back down to is starting at the beginning and just being open minded about things. And I understand that that is really difficult when you are having a tough time, when perhaps you feel like ADHD is. is running things for you and and you're really down about that or somebody else might have said something to you before that's triggered you you know we we have to be mindful of that but I think overall we just all have to be a bit more open-minded

And we do see the word mindfulness and meditation everywhere all of the time. There's got to be something in it. But like I say, we just have to start at the beginning. We have to keep it simple. We don't have to use any big special words and we don't have to have any special equipment or anything like that. We just have to start at the beginning. So it's not going to be the same for everybody.

People who've been doing it for years are going to have different experiences than people who've been doing it for weeks. But it's just all about getting started. Like, just educate yourself a little bit if you can. Come and talk to people like me. Ask me questions. I'm always happy to help, always happy to share. But yeah, just...

be open-minded um and yeah give it a go could you give us some examples of like mindfulness practices then not not meditation but the mindfulness part yeah yes absolutely so um And I have to say, I feel like this is one of the reasons why it was so profound for me, because it is something that you can do anytime. And once you've learned it, once you understand what mindfulness is.

You can't unlearn it. You might forget to practice, but it's always there. You've got it forever. Even if you forget to practice, you will never forget it. So some of the things that I really like when I first start talking about mindfulness to people is. start trying to spot the things that you do on autopilot.

really good start so things like just you get up in the morning you get a shower you brush your teeth you eat your breakfast you drink your coffee you've done you've probably done all of those things on autopilot that is literally the opposite to being present and paying attention, which is the definition of mindfulness. And so I just say to people, out of those things you usually do on autopilot, choose something. Just choose something this week that you are going to do.

more mindfully that you are consciously going to choose to pay attention to you're still exercising the same bit of your brain that's exercised during meditation so whether it's brushing your teeth or eating your food which by the way is a really nice one because food's amazing Just engage as many of your senses as possible. So like brushing your teeth.

I really like brushing my teeth. I don't know why. I always have. But as a mindfulness practice, it's a good one because you're using a lot of different senses. Usually you have a mirror in front of you. So you can use sight. You can hear it, sound. You can taste it. You can smell it. And you can touch the... toothbrush. So engage as many of your senses as possible.

How simple is that? Like everybody can do that. Your mind still might go off. So you're really focusing on the sound of brushing your teeth. And then your mind goes, oh my goodness, I didn't do that thing the other day. And then you go, hang on. i'll just let me come back again to just just practice mindfulness you've just practiced mindfulness like a round of applause the more you do it the easier it gets yeah that's amazing because so i think of meditation

in its simplest sense, as a practice of that. So it's like if I sit down for 15 minutes in the morning and focus on my breath or focus on a mantra or something, I'm practicing being able to do that later in the day when... I'm brushing my teeth and trying to focus on it. And a thought comes into my head that I'd forgot to put the bins out, which I did last week and go, shit. And then it's like, wait a minute. I can't do anything about it now. Back to the, whatever I was focusing on.

And I mean, is that right? Yeah, but I think the thing is, you've almost done it the other way around, I think. So you started with the formal meditation, didn't you? And that's really helped you, I guess, be more present in your life. But when I teach...

You know, when you go through the course, meditation is always a part of every session that I do because it is a really important part of mindfulness. It's a fantastic skill, meditation. It's a beautiful practice and it's really helpful. But I always start with those basics because. Like you said, right at the beginning of this, 99% of people can't do that. Don't know what mindfulness is. Can't meditate.

we just keep it simple just start with those basics and so I always say um and I actually volunteer for my local mental health charity so I'm working with people that often aren't well and are going through things um and a lady said to me once yeah but focusing on brushing my teeth isn't going to be the same as if I was meditating somewhere beautiful.

And I was like, yeah, it is the same. Actually, your brain doesn't know where you are. Your brain doesn't know where you are. Your brain just knows that you are.

taking control of it if you like you know you're you're choosing where to put your awareness um and i think that that's what a lot of it comes back to it doesn't have to be this fancy thing just start at the basics and you will start to see a difference if you can just create a very small change a very small habit you will start to see a difference um you don't even need to know why for a start just just let this difference be the difference um and you know i started um

mindfulness meditation because I couldn't sleep properly it's the first thing it helped me with falling asleep better oh heaven that and when that started to happen within Three days of meditating at bedtime. So specifically, I was, you know, we don't always meditate to fall asleep, but you can do. And then after a week, I thought, well.

there's something bloody in this. I'm going to have to learn everything, obviously. I didn't know I had ADHD at the time, but so then I went and bought like all the books and started watching the videos and signed up to a course. So yeah, it can help with so many things, but we just have to start at the beginning.

You know, it's interesting because I've got a quote here from John Kabat-Zinn, the guy, he created mindfulness-based, yeah. Stress reduction. So he said meditation is the only intentional, systematic human activity, which at bottom is not about trying to improve yourself or get anywhere else, but simply to realize where you already are.

It's amazing. But the thing is, if I said that to some people, they'd go, well, what's the point? They're so goal-orientated. I need to get something from this. What would you say to that person? Do you know what? It's hard because it's so hard because bloody hell, we all want to improve ourselves, right? We are all trying to achieve it. Like that is just human nature.

I think one of the biggest things for me personally that has come from my mindfulness practice, I'm bearing in mind, by the way, I've been practicing mindfulness for around 10 years. I didn't have my ADHD diagnosis until... would be two years in September so you know just to give you a sense of when I knew about things and what I was already doing um but one of the biggest things personally for me with my mindfulness practice is the acceptance part now

bear with me there's eight weeks in a mindfulness course there's lots of things that we cover one of the things you know we start with awareness one of the things that we cover is acceptance because when you see the dictionary definition of mindfulness it says pay attention to the present moment with no judgment I always replace with no judgment, with kindness. And that certainly starts with ourselves, that acceptance of we are where we are.

are who we are um and I think especially when with ADHD an acceptance of this is me is really powerful um and so that journey for me of almost accepting where you are doesn't mean that you're never going to strive to improve or be better it's just that that is not the main reason to do this the reason to do this is just to be better connected with yourself and the world around you then the world's your fucking oyster to be quite honest

Yeah, yes, definitely. So I started meditating because I had five seizures, like one night. Yeah, sorry, I don't know the whole story. Well, basically I was... I've been running businesses since I was 20. And I was 26 then. And I'd basically been full on flat out for six years. Oh, was that from burnout? Yeah, burnout. Five seizures. I'd been self-medicating. I wasn't diagnosed ADHD yet.

i'd been just drinking as much coffee as i could possibly get my hands on every single day not sleeping drinking too much alcohol loads of things and working just every single hour that i could and then i just had five seizures ended up in hospital came out of hospital went

to my mum's house, stayed there for about three weeks or so. And when I was there, I can't even remember, somebody just recommended meditating. I can't even remember who it was, to be honest. Anyway, I just got, I used the Headspace app. And I was like, this is really interesting. So I started doing it. And I noticed, like I said, I'm calmer. Something's changing here. But...

Again, I didn't know why I was doing it. I just kept doing it because I was desperate. I was desperate. No, it didn't matter. And when I came, that was... The middle of 2016. By the middle to end of 2017, I got diagnosed ADHD. Now, all the burnout and everything made sense then. I was just addicted to working and doing things constantly.

I'm so thankful that I'd been meditating for a year or so the day I got diagnosed because when I was offered... what everyone who gets diagnosed is offered, which is medication, which again, I've stated multiple times, no opinion on what other people do is I was thankful because I'd gained enough confidence from what the meditation had done to try going.

drug free as you know and um i think that it is like sometimes i say i usually say to people if you want to learn a tool of the things i talk about to manage your adhd do breath work and the reason why i say that is because it has immediate results so if you do it right it can give you a burst of energy it can calm you down it can do all sorts of things

I usually say that's the best thing. What I really want to say is the best thing is mindfulness and meditation. But I can't because people don't do it and they do the breath work thing.

you see yeah and my thinking is like and this is again i and to be honest what i should do is go speak to amy that's what i should say because like i've said i have nothing to sell so it's like you know yeah

Yeah, all come talk to me. But I think the thing is, right, this is again around this myth-busting and the misconceptions, right? You're talking about breathwork. That is a type of mindfulness. I know. You're talking about meditation. It's a type of mindfulness. So I know, you know, we're going to, but... Mindfulness is a bit of an umbrella term.

But what a fantastic umbrella term to have, because once you understand what it is and what it means and how to practice, all of these things fall under that. Maybe that's why I love it so much, because it's not too pigeonholed. There's lots of different types of meditation that you can do. so yeah I think we just have to remember there's a couple of things here right since my diagnosis which was only

was it just over 18 months ago, I have noticed a slight change in the recommendations. When I was diagnosed, I didn't feel like I was really recommended anything else other than medication. But I have seen more from the psychiatrist.

that I went to now being offered ADHD coaching and things like that covering various topics but I so I hope and pray that that is changing um what is offered you know when you initially get diagnosis um the other thing as well I think to remember is that everybody is different and I think especially because I work in the mental health space like I'm a massive mental health

advocate, speaker, campaigner. And so I've met lots of different people and we just have to be very careful that some people are just in a position where they would not be able to, you know. go without the medication that applies to lots of different conditions and so I think people just need to start to do what is right for them but ask the questions I think often we get don't we like taken along with the tide of this is your only option um

And so then we don't really ask the questions. And that's why it's important, like, you know, a community like yours, a community like mine, where we can actually share our experiences and have the conversations and question each other. Like, it's OK to question each other. We're adults.

It's not a fight. No, it's absolutely essential. This is the basis and backbone of the scientific method is that somebody creates a theory, a hypothesis, sorry, and then another scientist tries to disprove that. They don't try to prove it.

They try actively to disprove it. It's really, really important that they do it that way around. Because if they try to prove it, we end up with false evidence, unfortunately. And we know that to be certain. Anyway. I'm sort of like doing that ADHD thing where I've totally lost track of what I was going to say. It's okay.

I was just rounding up that it's really important that we're all individuals and that we need to look out for each other and keep questioning things, communicating and trying new things. I always say, what was I doing the other day? Oh, it was when I was filming for Jack.

they asked me a question and I think whatever I said, I think it was a question about what if I'm sceptical or something like that. And I was like, well, what have you got to lose? Just give it a go. There's nothing to lose. Just go for it.

Yeah, that's it, isn't it? It's like, this is what I was going to say, actually. It's like, so... We were just mentioning then, like, evidence and scepticism. It's like, there's so many different... hypotheses and theories about what adhd is what causes it blah blah blah anyway and as far as i can see and i've looked a lot most scientists can't agree with each other about it and yet you'll get some people

who again i don't even know how to word this but they'll say it is this it's a dopamine deficiency i was like it might be it might be part of it it could be like lots of different things

The thing is, if the experts can't agree, then what we need to do is self-experiment. And that's what I've tried to do myself. And I think that's really important because as close as we are to knowing what ADHD is, we're a lot further... towards the truth than we were like 20 years ago is that because it's such a massive spectrum and everybody experiences it differently i think feel like the only option is to self-experiment yeah and i think the other thing is

It comes back to that sort of acceptance that we practice in mindfulness, which actually was a little bit tough for me because I am the sort of person that wants to go and learn and find out the answers. I think what I've, and I have done that, you know, I always say that my diagnosis gave me lots of answers, but many, many questions. When I started listening and trying to learn and stuff, I think that maybe...

There's a little bit of everybody that's right. Like, you know, there are all these differing opinions, aren't there? But maybe it's a bit of all of them. Maybe it isn't just one or the other. Yeah. yeah and then and then you can completely when you have that acceptance that well bloody hell not you know this is so different for everybody and

We are all individuals. The scientists aren't exactly sure. Right. OK, let's forget about all that. What do I struggle with? Yes. In terms of my experience. What would I like help with? What are the different things that are out there? And then you just go give it a go. I love that. That's the key lesson for anybody listening right now. That is the way to do it because.

And it's like, I try really, really hard to only share what I'm doing so that people can try it themselves. Because I know that these things take a... everybody reacts differently to things also they take a varying level of effort it's like if i commit myself 100 to making sure that i meditate every single day i'm going to have a different uh outcome let's say to someone who does it once a week

And there may be a billion reasons why they're only able to do it once a week, of which I have no judgment over. But it's like... I just have to say, I do have advice over. Go on then, please do. As a mindfulness teacher, I just want to say, if... that is if that feels like the options I do 20 minutes sitting in meditation every day or I do it once a week for an hour whatever it is three minutes seven minutes ten minutes

every day three minutes every day is better than once in a blue moon that's my advice and when you learn mindfulness and not just meditation you can also practice throughout your day

with the things that you were doing anyway so i'm sorry to cut you off there no no it's great it just fits really well can i ask you so i'm gonna be selfish now and just ask some questions like for me here which i hope other people will so right okay i I think I do what you're talking about, but I never called it mindfulness as such. So I meditate.

Sometimes I do it three times a day, depending on how I'm feeling. Almost always. Well, no, every single day I do it twice a day, 20 minutes in the morning, 20 minutes before I eat dinner.

And the reason why I do that is because it's like I finished work and I need a separation between work and then home life. And what I'm doing it for is to... distract my awareness from my thoughts and body so that it starts to focus on my on itself let's say consciousness my awareness is focusing on itself not on my thoughts and then in that sort of experience there is like a liberation from myself

You see, again, I'm being self-indulgent here because I know, but I once talked to you about it. So, okay, that does happen sometimes and it is amazing, but... If I try to make it happen, it doesn't because I'm thinking about trying to make it happen. It's very, very confusing and contradictory, right? And anyway, throughout the day, thoughts come to me, sometimes very negative, sometimes very positive.

both of which are bad for me because the negative thoughts are about trying to change something and the positive thoughts are often about trying to change something and I'm not actually being with what is in that moment. so i realize and this is the benefit of practicing the meditation twice a day for me is that i'm quick to realize when the thought comes and what it's trying to do to me and then i try to let it go just like and what i mean by that is i just take a deep breath

and focus on my breath and focus on what I'm doing. And then the thought sometimes just carries on in the background, but I'm sort of like a little bit away from it and watching it happen. I find that that is... like meditating throughout the day as i'm working and i've found that that might actually be the single most important thing i've ever done in my life aside from getting married and having a kid so what

that what that's basically mindfulness isn't it as i've just explained to you is do you have any tips for me in terms of like what i would say is when so when you practice When you practice mindfulness, when you start to create that habit, because like I say, we start with the informal stuff throughout the day as well as meditation. You really are practicing, noticing.

when you're having a thought you are practicing noticing when you're not noticing so for example when I'm with my four-year-old and I am not paying attention to the lego and i do pay attention to lego because i bloody love lego to thomas the tank engine on the on the train or whatever it is that he's doing i am able so easily

To recognise that doesn't mean I can always fix it because I am a human being with a human brain. But I have the recognition of not being present. I have the recognition that my thoughts are running away with me. And so.

the more that we do that the easier it becomes which is why when I say to people it sounds really silly to notice the things you do on autopilot and pay attention to those everyday tasks but the reason that that helps is because you know scientifically we are engaging a different part of our brain we're consciously choosing to engage our brain in a different way and so then when you need it

it's easier to do it because you're almost like preempting, like you're pre-practicing that moment. And so... Yeah, when you're in those moments, you are able to notice that your thoughts are running away with you. One thing I would say is that I don't always then focus on my breath. Sometimes I have to give my head a little shake and actually almost have the conversation with myself because...

Me talking to myself changes those thoughts because I'm not having those thoughts anymore when I'm saying to myself, you do not need to be worrying about that. It's already happened.

Does that make sense? Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Right. Okay. So I'm getting excited here. So right. Yesterday I went for a walk. I live in the Peak District. I went for a walk in a very beautiful place where I'd been before. I'd been there 10 times in my life. And as I was walking.

I was looking at places I'd been in this particular walk and remembered past experiences, which I then, my mind just automatically tried to change as if it was trying to make it different to what had actually happened. And then wanted me to focus on those differences. And I just laughed to myself. I was like, what?

Right. Anyway, we got back in the car and I thought to myself, that was really weird. What the hell is going on? And I realized I have no control over my mind. It's just going to do whatever the hell it wants. Again, going back to that, you can't have an empty mind because you can't control the mind. The mind is just its own thing. Anyway, I realized that I was just trying to... It was like my mind was just trying to create a better memory of what happened. As if I should, but...

Like, maybe, I don't know, I'm confusing myself here because this literally just happened yesterday, but it's like, maybe I should just... Like, I can't change it. Is it something that's happened in the past? The only thing I can do is just... realize that my mind is playing tricks on me and laugh about it that's the way that I felt anyway I don't know our mind does it does it does play tricks on us and you know

I know I keep going on about it, but the reason I say about mindfulness courses are good because you are going from A to Z, which is really bad for us. We like to go A, Z, B, C. We work through these things. We talk about these different... aspects of mindfulness and what it actually means in reality and you know our brain creates images and feelings out of nothing a thought um

And that can be really overwhelming. Like it just does it. But I think the thing with mindfulness is, like I said, it comes back to number one, awareness, noticing when you are thinking, noticing when you're not present. And then that acceptance that.

you know in that moment you notice your mind is doing that but being able to say to yourself well it's past that's the past it's gone like that's so silly like and just having that compassion for yourself to be going oh that's just that's silly don't you don't need to worry about that or just accepting that all right

I'm having this thought right now. So in the past, to have some compassion now for me, to have compassion towards people with ADHD, it's like in the past, definitely what I would have done before I started. practicing mindfulness again i'm going to use that instead of yay is uh i would have got lost in the thought for hours yeah and let it just go

and just keep like arguing with myself and making up shit that didn't happen and then getting upset about it. And then I would just probably, I mean, there's literally times in the past where I've had a thought, which I just made up out of nowhere. And I've spoken to my wife for eight hours solid about it. Yeah. And that I describe as like textbook ADHD behaviour.

And that is hard. And I'm not saying that you learn this and everything's going to be peachy. Like I said, I ain't perfect. I go through some really tough times like that. And especially if, I don't know about you, but for me, it's something emotional. And it particularly triggers some of those emotions that that can be really hard to unhook from. But again, it comes with that practice. And I think what you then start to learn is compassion for yourself is really important because you don't.

add on beating yourself up on top of the other thing that you're already dealing with um but the other thing i would say is you will start to learn the things that you need to do like you said about tuning into your breath for example that's something that you know that it's that's almost like a physical thing that you can change um

And if we're thinking about being mindful and present, there's a number of things that you can do. It might just be literally going for a walk, like moving your body. It might be calling someone to talk. You will find the things that you. that you need and that can help you but

it's really hard to do that on your own. It's really hard to do that when it's like, I've just been like this all my life and I don't know how else to deal with it. And there are other ways to deal with it, but it just takes that little bit of commitment to yourself.

to go and investigate it yeah I know that's probably not the answer that people want to hear because everybody wants like a magic wand or whatever but like this isn't this isn't perfection right it's practice so some people message me on LinkedIn when I

write about this sort of thing and they'll say invariably this happens not all the time they'll say look i can't meditate because it uh triggers my rejection sensitive dysphoria now i don't suffer with that so i i know what they're talking about but i I don't really know what to say. I just usually say, I usually sort of say, look,

I don't, yeah, I just, I just told them the truth. I was like, I don't suffer with it. So, and I only talk about what I know, so I can't really help. So I, and I don't really know where to send those people because I don't know what's happening. Like if you have experience with that. Oh yeah. Like I experienced that, you know, I absolutely. Yeah.

100% do so they close their eyes to meditate apparently and then as they do it the mind starts again I'm assuming because I don't know exactly but their mind just starts to put thoughts out that they are afraid of maybe or that that they're making them feel so unbelievably uncomfortable that they can't handle it i believe i think that's what's happening so and i totally get that you know when i've been in some uh difficult times postnatal anxiety was was the one for me that really

hit me for six um I never even knew it was a thing I'd never heard even heard the term and I think that there might be something to do I've done a little bit of reading I'm no expert but you know I was undiagnosed ADHD at that point um and so I have no doubt that that impacted, you know, traumatic birth and everything.

to having postnatal anxiety and I found that really difficult to meditate in those moments when I was feeling so anxious like to sit with myself are you sure you know um but then I guess that's why I turned a lot to my informal mindfulness practice, because it meant that I could make myself in a way be be more present by using the practices that I had in my back pocket to be present with my baby and to have.

some helpful conversations. So what I would say to people is like, that is okay, you know, but try putting on something that's more guided because you will still have thoughts.

you have but you have to practice like there is no magic wand for this but put something on that's more guided even if it is like a breathing meditation but that someone is literally guiding you through especially if it's something like counting your breathing because what will happen is your mind will want to run away with

those thoughts and you will at some point notice that you are listening to a breathing meditation and you will bring your awareness back to the instruction and you'll breathe now if you had a 10 minute meditation on and you did that one time well that's one more time than you did it yesterday and tomorrow you might do it twice and then the next day you might do it three times and then the next day and then in like two weeks time you might be doing it for 10 minutes so

I understand that that is uncomfortable. But what I always say to people is in this moment. You are safe and all is well. They are just thoughts. They cannot hurt you. It's like the weather in the sky. No matter how loud and tumultuous the thunder is, it doesn't hurt the sky and it will pass and the sky like you will still be there.

That's what I always say. You are safe. You are well. Keep going. You can use that in your inbox, Joseph. Thank you so much. I'm definitely going to. That's just amazing.

topic of toughness in terms of like meditation and spirituality in general mindfulness you know whatever we want to call it is that um i've been fortunate to have conversations with spiritual teachers like michael singer the author of the untethered soul and sad guru and stuff and one thing i noticed about them is that when you actually speak to them is they're very very very tough on you and i and it's like for example why is the

Michael Singer will say things to you like, you're addicted to your mind. You're addicted. Just like a drug addict is addicted to drugs, you're addicted to your mind. It is the same thing. He'll say things like that, and he's like...

It starts almost like having a mini panic attack as he's saying it. And then later on, you realize, yeah, it's actually true. I am. And I'm not, again, I'm not speaking about anybody else because I really don't want anyone to feel that way. But he said that to me. I know that he is telling the truth. I am addicted to my mind. Now, what are your thoughts on that? Because I know that that is like a hardcore thing for someone to say.

Look, I get it. Everybody's different, right? And we all need different types of teachers. You know, there will be teachers when you're at school that were like the best teachers ever. There's some that you think were crap and it'll be different for everybody else. Look. You have to find what works for you. And I say this when I'm teaching my eight-week course. I say, go listen to some meditations. I have to say, I've been told.

hundreds of times i have a lovely voice because of leading meditations but if you went on youtube and started listening to a meditation and someone's voice is irritating the shit out of you like don't keep listening turn it off and go and find another yeah i think i think getting the impression from we've been speaking for like nearly an hour or so

I get getting the impression from you is you aren't, you are quite tough. Like you're, you come from a very warm and loving place, but there's definitely like a, you just said to me, you just said, they've just thought they're not going to kill you.

yeah that is like that takes brave i think that takes bravery saying that because some people will get so upset even though what you said is absolutely 100 true yeah i hope that that's because i do bring it with like my whole heart and all of my love and compassion yeah like i was saying thank you there's going to be teachers that are going to not suit you know someone might not be able to handle that

And when I'm running my course, I will say to people, everything that I'm saying to you right now, I do this at the beginning and throughout. Everything I'm saying to you is done from the best place, from my experiences.

And from a place of me being able to sit here right now and teach you, you know, in black and white. This does not take account of the experience you're experiencing right now. Anything that's happened in the past, the future. So I say all of that because I'm very, very mindful about. especially when you're working with people that might not be well, just about safeguarding and looking after people. But what I would say is we're all different.

Someone might like that. You might like that. Joseph might like someone to be like, you know, giving it to you. I'm straight talking because I know how helpful this can be. And there is no point in fluffing it up. They are just thoughts. I know they're really fucking powerful. I have been there. My thoughts have stopped me doing things in the height of postnatal anxiety. For example, there was nothing outside my front door that was dangerous.

I know that rationally. My thoughts stopped me from going out the house. In that moment, I couldn't deal with it. And I had to accept that. I guess that's where part of my practice, but I accepted that and I went gentle with myself. But ultimately, there are thoughts. And I think that, you know. I'm straight down the line, but I'm very, very caring and people just need to find what works for them. I think that I don't think there are that many.

I mean, I don't know, but I don't think there are that many people that teach mindfulness that are like you because most, and I think that sometimes the people that teach mindfulness come at it from too much of like a lofty, like. spiritual basis which puts people off very quickly and you're just like and what we need is more straight talking like yeah i should get myself out there more yeah

I still get a bit shy sometimes, but I do know that and I do agree with you. Having myself done research with that and been on courses and stuff, and I don't think it's even just coming from a spiritual place. It's coming from a regurgitated place. So people will go and they will learn.

week one of mindfulness this is week two of mindfulness and I'm sort of taking the piss a little bit but um there's lots of different types of people I have to try to believe that people's hearts are in the right place but I don't regurgitate that my eight-week course I rewrote it myself because I want it to be

in my words and in my style and I do say fucking shit and I do share my real life experiences because look I said on the gateway drug if you go and sit down to someone who goes and I've been to these sessions today We're going to practice my, I'm gone. I'm gone. Like, you know, so that's why, I mean, I'm creating the ADHD course, like literally right now. I've just started talking about it because we need it differently as well. You know, we need short, sharp.

teachers we need to you know be given the tools in a slightly different way but you're right there are many many teachers that approach it the same way and I just hope that I always say if I even help one person to change their mind about mindfulness, then I'm winning. But yeah, we just need to start approaching it in a different way. It is not holier than thou. It is not perfect. It is just a fucking brilliant tool to train your brain to just work.

a little bit differently definitely because like Michael Singer will sometimes say things like right I'm going to get tough with you now and you know that what is coming out of his mouth in the next sentence is going to hurt you and it's like

In a way, he's not doing it. He's obviously not doing it to actually hurt you. He's doing it because he knows that you need to hear the truth immediately because you need to sort out whatever the fuck is going on kind of thing. And that is a really difficult thing for people to do. And like, but again, he does it because it comes from a place of genuinely wanting to help. And I can, yeah, obviously that's the same thing with you right there. Now, if people wanted to get started.

like right now after listening to this episode, what can they do? I would say that first thing that I said before, just start noticing all the things you do on autopilot. We do it so much.

start to just be aware of it like that is something you can literally go away you turn this podcast off and you go oh yeah you know you'll start to notice and just choose to do one thing every day more mindfully and then the other thing I would say is find a breathing meditation or even for yourself just sit down for a few minutes and count your breathing like it doesn't have to be

spangly you know what I mean just sit and count your breath I do in for four hold for five and out for six like what would you say is the difference between like going using an app or coming to someone like you there's a there's a space for both because the apps are really good for being there when you need it, nice and easy. However, if you are just going to the app,

I mean, I'm hoping, Joseph, that you might have learned a little bit more about mindfulness today or like different ways to approach it. You've reframed it for me, which I think is one of the most important things that can happen, if I'm honest. And so I think that's where it comes. You know, an app is going to guide you and they're fantastic.

If you get to work with someone, they get to support you, you know, and I get to talk to people about their own situation. So it's just more personalised. And when you go to an app, you're not really being taught anything. You're being guided through one specific thing. whereas when you go and work with someone you will learn tools and you will create a habit and you will learn things about yourself on that journey with someone who's sort of holding your hand

which is quite nice. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. So for the listener, like I meditated for four years with an app or whatever, three years, I can't remember, and had no idea why I was doing it. just knew that it was doing something doing it and then i went to speak to someone about it and i learned what i was doing it for and it completely changed everything for me so i would would you say that maybe

An app is almost like the gateway drug to you and then you're the gateway drug to the rest of it. Maybe, maybe. I think an app's a nice... I don't know. It's hard to say. I don't use an app anymore at all because I find it distracting. Yeah, I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from trying anything at all, you know, but there's no replacement for human connection. No, definitely not.

here's another thing right so sometimes i recommend again i'm going to go straight to meditation the actual practice of meditation now not mindfulness in general is that people really really struggle with meditating and i ask them what type of meditation they're doing and they'll say i'm just following my breath or i'm following my breath in my nostrils or following it in my stomach or whatever and i say okay why don't you try using a mantra instead

And often that does seem to work a little bit. And the reason I think it does, and you may be able to tell me more, is that the mantra is putting a thought into your mind that distracts you from the thought that was causing the problem. Is that right? Yeah. So, you know, when we think about mindfulness and meditation, you are literally trying to...

It is almost a replacement of the thoughts in your mind of being present, isn't it? It's just going, be present. It's like, fuck, do I do that? So, yes. And what I teach when I'm teaching is... very similar to what you just said you try and focus on the breath and we focus on the rise and fall of the chest uh the air passing your nostrils or the sound of your breathing you know we'll try those things right then i'm and then

I say, count your breathing. It's exactly the same reason as the mantra. Because when you are counting in your head, one, two, three, four, you are not thinking anything because you are counting. And that's all it is. So it's like, if you get to... Say you count to 20. I don't know what number you count to, but let's just say... No, I just do a round of...

I would say count in for four, hold for five and out. Something like that. Because also the science behind elongating your out breath as you probably, you know, activates your parasympathetic nervous system. So actually not only is it calming because. you are engaging your mind differently. You are also breathing in a different way to what you usually would, which is good physically. So you would...

I recommend people would start off doing some breathing before they try to do meditation, because that would, like you say, activate the parasympathetic nervous system, make them more relaxed and more likely to be able to focus on. Yeah. So when you first start out, your meditation. could just be the breathing meditation. If you want to start going deeper, you can start to explore doing that beforehand.

uh doing a bit of a visualization beforehand to get you somewhere that you want to be do you know i mean there's oh there's so many we could literally talk forever because there's so many different things that there's just

There is no right way. And I know you said on one of your newsletters once about moving your body. Like if I've been sat here at this desk all day and I think I'm going to sit and do a meditation. Absolutely. Even if I just walk around to the living room and back again or something, you know. You just have to, like we said it before, explore what works for you. And if one thing doesn't work, don't write it all off.

Don't write it all off. That's like you went to the gym and you were like, oh, I didn't like this machine or I didn't get a six pack after one day. What are you talking about? You know, you have to keep going. It's a practice. I described it on the, I don't know, a newsletter the other day. I said, look. when you learn to play the piano you don't play beethoven immediately this is starting with your scales you start with the scales that's what this is anyway right

in danger of just self-indulging myself for the next couple of hours and wasting your time just talking and asking you loads and loads of questions i think we should definitely try and do this again in the future but before we go um how can people learn more about you OK, so LinkedIn, Amy Polly. Instagram, this is Amy Polly. They're the places I mostly am. You can find my page.

It's Amy Polly, Mindfulness on Facebook. But I'm mostly on LinkedIn and Instagram. And if it's okay, can I share my website as well? Of course. Talk about your mastermind. Whatever it is that you call it.

It's all right. Let me not butcher it. You do. Amypoly.com forward slash ADHD, all lowercase. That is... the waiting list because it's about to land any minute because I've just you know I think on my own journey I've realized that I love teaching this but I can make it way more specific for ADHDers and it could be really useful to be able to break up I mean, yourself think about like an eight week course, an hour a week. You're like.

um so breaking it up so amypoly.com forward slash adhd and then amypoly.com you'll find bits and pieces about me but i work with small business owners that's what i was doing with the mastermind because i always talk about as being the forgotten ones workplace well-being but nobody's looking after us so I'm on a mission I'm on a mission amazing I love that so much thank you very very much I've really really enjoyed this conversation oh good thank you so much