¶ Breaking the Glass Ceiling With Namita
Welcome to Detangle , where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time . I'm your host , dr Kinjal Goel , a psychologist and a writer . Sharks are supposed to be fierce and formidable , but the one I have the privilege of hosting today is a shark with a difference .
I'm super excited to have with me Namita Thapar , the executive director of M-Cure Pharmaceuticals , headquartered in Pune . M-cure has a presence in more than 70 countries and an employee strength of over 10,000 .
An MBA and a CA by education , namita is one of the sharks on the popular TV show Shark Tank India , which has now been running successfully into its third season . From owning her memes to shattering the glass ceiling , she is a true inspiration . Welcome , namita , and thank you for joining me on Detangle today .
Thank you , kinjal and Tyree , my pleasure .
Well , namita , there's so much I need to learn from you . There's so much I want to ask you . Let's just get started with the questions and let's see where they take us . Sounds good . So tell us , namita , about your early years . Were you , as a child , always interested in business ? Was this a part you always thought you would follow you ?
know , actually I wanted to become a doctor because I felt nothing is more noble than saving lives and I wanted to become a teacher . So those were the two things I started off with and then I realized I couldn't handle the blood . So charging accountancy was the next option .
Given my love for numbers , I've always been a numbers nerd and so that's kind of my process of elimination how I went to my second love , which is numbers .
And then , of course , having an inspiration at home and being part of dinner table conversations where my father would be talking business , talking numbers , talking sales , brand building , that also put a love for just creating an impact , and so being in business and being in healthcare , that was a second passion .
So these were kind of things that evolved over a period of time and I'm really happy in the place I'm at right now because I genuinely do things that I love doing .
How nice . I've also noticed , namita , that you've taken the idea of just business into so many different dimensions , be it a nationally aired show , or your early time with YEA , now your own academy , of course , the business itself , I mean . What keeps you motivated to try so many things ?
I really believe in the concept of being a lifelong learner . I think you have to be humble enough to know that you have a lot of flaws . You're going to be dumb at times , you're going to make a lot of mistakes and don't take yourself too seriously . As always , I have this quest of constantly growing learning and that's why I try multiple things .
Of course , the academy which teaches entrepreneurship to teenagers , 11 to 19 year olds , which I've been running for seven years . That again goes back to my earlier point of somewhere within me . I wanted to be a teacher and I worked very closely with the kids . I write the curriculum , the case studies , I go for the investor panels where these kids paid .
It just keeps the teacher dream in me alive and these kids teach me a lot too . Somewhere along the way you get skeptical , jaded and they keep that wonder and vulnerability in me alive Again , purely selfish reasons .
That's the academy part , the rest of the stuff I keep doing , because these are ways you step outside your comfort zone and you keep learning and growing .
I think everyone has to have a humility to know that they are inadequate , they have a lot of flaws and you have to keep learning and growing as you go along and , of course , have a lot of fun along the way as well . It's not worth it if you're not having fun .
Oh , absolutely , and that shows . I think that shows through your work . So that's wonderful . Also , namita , the pharmaceutical workspace , like a lot of other areas in the past , has been male dominated and merely saturated with male thought for a very long time . Did it ever feel like a boy's club to you , or did you have to break in and emerge ?
I think I'm older , so when we were younger , which is about 25 years back , when we enter the workforce it did feel quite male dominated . But I'm very happy to see that things are changing , and things are changing very rapidly these days , with more women entering the workforce .
Of course , it's not the percentage that is ideal , but at least there are green shoes and we are seeing a lot of progress . So that's very nice to see . And more than at the workforce .
You know , I saw either a lovely McKinsey survey or whatever article that's come up on women in healthcare and women's health in general , and I wrote an article in LinkedIn as well . What is more shocking is a lack of women in research , in funding for women's health issues , in clinical trial representation , and I think these are deeper issues .
So we need to have women representation at the workforce . But what's coming out are some very startling statistics that women's health in research , funding clinical trials , needs a lot more representation . If we need to change the statistics in that space as well .
And , kingeal , you're in healthcare , so I don't know if you know the statistics , but World Economic Forum runs a survey on women's health and every year they survey around 156 countries and India consistently ranks bottom two , which is where 154th in ranking in women's health . That's how low we are .
So women's health in general , and not just the workforce , is an area that needs a lot more attention , and I hope that we see these statistics changing to some extent , at least in my lifetime .
I'm sure , with the kind of work you are doing and with the kind of tribe you have formed around you , there will be changes soon enough . And , like you rightly said , even in my field of work as a psychologist , I see it very easy for doctors to label a woman as simply having maybe an emotional disturbance over and above a physical disorder .
It's easier to say women must be simply just stressed . So , yes , yeah , also , namita , you have two wonderful boys , jay and Veeve . It's an unfair question to ask a successful businesswoman how she balances family and business , because we don't ask the question to men with children . So let me ask you something else instead how do your boys perceive your work ?
I mean , how do they react to your success or to your need to be away at times ?
It's not always easy . So initially they did not like it at all and they were very anti-sharp time because there was loss of privacy .
When we went for vacations or even dinners or movie outings , People would mob me for selfies and want my time and attention and they felt that you know that's time away from their mom , or mom has to be with them , versus the kids , and so they did not like it at all .
It took them some time to really understand that what mom is doing at Shaftag is so much bigger . She's helping people , she's giving back to the startup ecosystem . This is something that's transformed the way people in India are thinking about entrepreneurship .
And then , once they got that , things turned around , and now , of course , there are a lot more accommodating and proud , but it was a journey . So I'm not going to be fake and say , oh , it's great and there's a lovely balance Even outside of Shaftag . I don't think there's ever a balance and I don't think you can ever have it all .
There are some days I prioritize work and my kids hate me for it , and there are some days I prioritize kids and my work suffers because of it . But you know , as long as I am clear of when I wake up that morning what my priority is going to be and I am at peace and happy with what my decision is . You know that's all that matters .
I'm too old now to really look at others for that validation , and you know my inner voice is all the report card that I really need .
How wonderful to be liberated with age . I think it's something all of us need and I hope all of us achieve . Talking about your success , you've been working for so many years to finally break the glass ceiling , to claim your place under the sun . What people tend to see is this overnight success , not the grueling days and nights or the struggles you mentioned .
Tell us some of your other struggles in your workspace .
The first struggle started with chartered accountancy , because clearing everything in the first attempt at the age of 21 was literally 1% of Indians do that . So I remember putting my life on hold and sometimes I'd see my friends enjoying their young days , clubbing and partying . I chose to not do all that because I was so driven by becoming a chartered accountant .
That was a lot of hard work I put in for four years . I was the first girl from my family to go abroad without being married . That was chattering , a lot of glass ceilings and there was a lot of negative chatter around that and thank God , my parents supported me .
But once I went there is when the real struggle started because , being from a protected Kujju family , I was quite lost and made so many mistakes and was so traumatized . That was a lot of hard work Working in a company outside my father's for six
¶ Challenges and Growth in Business
years so many . It's so easy to just join your family business right after your MBA , but I chose to work for six years in a company that was not my father's and that really shaped me and that really shaped my work ethic .
But that was a lot of hard work living in the US , being married , working , being pregnant , having a kid just balancing a lot of things , which is much harder in the US , I think , than in India , where you have a lot more help and support , True , and then once I came in the workforce , when I joined my father's business , I thought the red carpet would be
rolled out to be given my double degree and my six years work experience abroad . But there were a lot of old timers who did not take me seriously and even when I was pregnant the second time they thought I won't come back . So breaking a lot of those stereotypes and old time sort of mindsets was not always easy .
My own father , when I wanted to transition from finance to sales and marketing and own the India business , was not very comfortable with it and then working with him to make that happen . So I think challenges are a part of everybody's life . It's not just me .
Anybody who's driven and anybody who's hard working and anybody who's in the workspace will always have challenges . You just have to learn and keep learning from those challenges and just stay resilient , and then things work out .
Absolutely . Let's talk about what you just mentioned on Shark Tank . Now . It's a great franchise . It's helping bring the spirit of entrepreneurship to every household . It has never , honestly , been a better time to be an entrepreneur , especially in India . But personally , have you ever felt that it's to try something completely out of the box ?
If I'm not mistaken , I remember seeing something of a machine that you had developed to measure hemoglobin levels in women . I mean , do you also have this itch to just make something of your own To ?
be very honest . People don't realize that 87% of India's GDP comes from family businesses and even in a family business , to scale it requires an entrepreneurial mindset . And I'm so fulfilled and so challenged by my job at MQ and so many new things that I keep doing , like right now the thing I'm working on is MQ's primary customers , the doctors .
That requires very different sales and marketing than D2C , which is going direct to consumer . I'm going D2C and I want to own the women's health space and we're launching our first product on Women's Day , which is March 8th . Now , doing that is completely an entrepreneurial venture within MQ because it's never been done before .
So I'm so challenged and fulfilled by my job at MQ that every day there's something new , something challenging . Until that challenge and growth is there at MQ , I don't really feel the need to do something outside of MQ .
That's wonderful . Actually , it's a very different way of thinking and expressing and articulating your thought . Because I agree with you , family businesses are not just black and white . They have all shades within them and to be able to create something within something which is so massive is a challenge . There was a meme .
I'm sure you have been asked this question a million times , but I'm going to go ahead and do it During the first season of Shark Tank , with you saying you know he may be expertise , so I'm out . People made it into a meme . A lot of people would have said this is online trolling , traumatic hurt , but you did the unimaginable .
I have never seen somebody take it in their stride , make it funnier , own it and show the netizens whose boss I mean . Where did you get such emotional grit ? It's not simple , but it came from somewhere .
You know , it again comes down to humility , right ? I mean , don't ? I think some people take themselves too seriously and then want to have this perfect image of being the perfect person .
And when you are down that path where you take yourself too seriously , or this perfect image and one this perfect sort of you know things being told about you , that's when you're in trouble in life in every sense and that's when your mental health goes for a toss .
The opposite effect where opposite approach where you stay humble and you say you know what , I'm going to be stupid at times , I have a lot of flaws . I don't want to be serious all the time and I am who I am . You know , at times I'm silly , at times I'm serious , and it doesn't matter , it's just who I am .
And , yes , maybe some expertise , but he's not here , it's a fact . I'm not God and I don't ever claim that I know everything . And if I don't know something , hey , founder , go get a better investor than me , because you'll be better off for that , and I genuinely believe in that .
So I think when you don't take yourself too seriously , when you embrace your flaws , when you have fun with it , life just becomes a lot easier . And then you know you , just the trolling doesn't get to you as much , so that's that I prefer to live life that way .
I have . Fantastic because we come from a generation where this wasn't taught to us . We did not see others dealing with it . You know we don't have any precedence , so you haven't seen others do the right thing or the wrong thing . This is something you're , you know , self-taught , which is amazing that it has gone so well .
I'm not just self-taught . I've been lucky to have good mentors and they're older than me , so what they learned later they're teaching me right now , and I'm lucky that I'm a public face so I can teach others through my Instagram . My social media handles what my mentors taught me . So a lot of this is not self-taught .
A lot of this is , you know , I've been down and I've been sad and then they've lifted me by teaching me all this .
So that's why , you know , I've written that book , the Dolphin and the Shark and a lot of it is my life experiences , and I've dedicated a chapter on mentors because I genuinely feel that my mentors have played a very important role in shaping me and making me who I am today .
Right . I think gratitude towards our teachers is something we inherently should keep with us . Yeah , and that goes a long way . Tell me , is there any advice that you wish you had received earlier in your career , something you learned through your mentors , but something you wish you didn't have to learn so late ? Become thick-skinned .
So you know me being this thick-skinned and I don't give a damn about the world happened much later to me .
It happened in my late 30s , and had I been that way in my early 20s and not really cared about external validation as much and just been completely thick-skinned and only gone with my inner voice something I learned much later had I done that sooner , I would have been so much more productive and happier .
So that's the one thing I do wish I had learned sooner .
So is there something you would want to tell new age entrepreneurs or women in business , especially as they start off ? Is there something you know , as a little piece of advice , you want to give them emotionally , that this is where you should start ?
I think number one is be authentic . I find too many people trying to be too fake and posture and create an image and people see through that , whereas people also see through authenticity . So I think the number one thing is be true to yourself and just be real in life , good and bad . That is one .
The second thing is Failure is still a taboo in our country and I think the biggest lessons come when you embrace failure , when you welcome failure , when you look forward to setbacks and learning experiences , because the best learning doesn't come from your CEO , your MBA or your work experience , but it comes from these lives , setbacks and failures .
So keeping a positive mindset towards that is very healthy and very , very , very good for your career growth .
Absolutely . That's so well put in such a short span of words . I mean so economically . You've used your words and just said it all . Do this , this , this and you're sorted Fantastic . So , like we discussed earlier , the psychology of the Indian workplaces now evolving , but apparently not fast enough .
Women are coming in , but not at the pace that we would want them to . Is there anything that can be done in the workplace or outside the workplace to notch this in the right direction ?
Yeah , you know , for example , another chapter in my book is about culture of descent . So I like to surround myself with people who are smarter than me and people who tell me I'm wrong and people who challenge me . And actually we have awards that we give out for the best challenger right or for the best dissenter .
And I think if you make the workspace a place where it's safe to challenge , safe to dissent and safe to speak up , you just become a better leader and a more evolved leader and you have better decisions for the company coming that way .
So there are a lot of things like that that we do at the workspace to promote healthy debate , healthy , you know , just discussions . So this is one example , but there are lots of things that HR can very consciously do and the leaders can very consciously do at the work space . Lovely .
So , personally speaking , is there any routine , any ritual that you swear by on a daily basis , any you know like ? Is it a life of discipline , or is it one of share , abandoned and going with the flow ? For you , Definitely disciplined .
So I'm very consistent in terms of my workout routine . And more so , you know , I discovered the beauty of yoga and silence . I wouldn't exactly call it meditation , I would call it silence , because sometimes it's just good to get away and just be alone and reflect .
So not so much try to force yourself to breathe a certain way or say some mantras or just all of that . Be in silence and be with your thoughts and enjoy your own company and reflect .
So yoga and silence has helped me stay centered , because our lives are so complex that sometimes you get overwhelmed and when you get overwhelmed you get burnt out and then that really leads to a lot of health issues at work . Also , you get irritable , you snap .
So I have learned the art of just getting detached and doing my yoga and being in silence Wherever I feel that onslaught of complexity and that rush of , you know , being a little overwhelmed .
Lovely . So I think discipline goes a longer way than simply motivation . Motivation goes up and it goes down , but discipline just keeps going . You need both . True . Let me ask you something more personal now , namita . I'm sure you've heard of a physical first aid box . You know a box we keep at home .
We have a little bandaid antiseptic sphane killers for those small cuts and bruises . But if you were to have a personal mental first aid box , you know a kind of box that you could open on a bad day that you've had emotionally , and you would find things which make you instantly happy . What would you put in it ?
So I not not a lot of people know this , but I keep a book of my loved ones and I'm on my 10th scrapbook right now and they're massive books , or 10 scrapbook means they're like pretty massive books and tickets , pictures , mementos , small things .
I just a leaf , a flower , I just put it in that scrapbook and then I write notes so that I don't forget those memories . And so my go-to thing on a bad day is I open my scrapbook and when I see those pictures and those memories and I realize how grateful I am and how lucky I am , that instantly gets me out of my bad mood .
So my scrapbook is my mental health kit .
How beautiful . So before I could even ask you the question , you've already been answering it all these years . Yes , that's fantastic . So tell me three things about yourself that most people don't know .
Oh God , I think now I've become such a public figure and I'm so open and I think people know everything about me . I don't think there's other than this crab book , which I don't think I've written much about . I don't think there's anything , you don't know about .
Actually , that's also a wonderful way to be . You're just like a crab book yourself .
I like to say I'm an open book , I mean whatever , and I'm a fairly simple person , I'm not that complex . There are only like five or six dimensions to me which are all in the public and people know that about me . So I don't really think there is stuff that people don't know about me .
Okay , tell me this then what is your one single pet peeve , one thing that you wish people would just stop doing ?
Arrogance . I think arrogance really puts me off and I find that very annoying and I actually delete such people from my life . I don't meet them a second time .
Oh lovely , I like this . You've gone from real life to real life . You just deleted me .
I just deleted them . I don't meet them again . I have a very busy life and I'm very selective of my people that I interact with .
Right . As we come to the end of this discussion , namita , I leave the floor open to you , as I do with all my guests . Is there any question that you would like to ask me as a psychologist ?
Kindle ? Not really . I think we covered a lot in this half an hour and my apologies . I know we've been trying to schedule this for a while , but it's just
¶ Journey to Public Success
been . You know , like I said , we're going public , so a lot going on , but great conversation covering a bunch of topics . So thank you for that . Thank you for your time .
No , it's been my pleasure , namita . Let me just wrap up with some closing remarks on what we've discussed . We've gone from early struggles , we've gone from embracing the silence . We have gone from exponential growth to actually living a simple life and a beautiful scrapbook that people can try as their own mental first aid box .
It has been so nice talking to you , it has been so nice discussing these little snippets with you , just to bring it all together for our listeners so that they know that life is not overnight success , but every struggle counts and every struggle pays .
So thank you for your time , thank you for being with me on Detangle , and I wish you all the best with your IPO . I wish you all the best with your future and with Shartan . Thank you .
Kimya , thank you so much .