Detangle with Mr D Sivanandhan

You get Roti Bank , an organization where the investment is pure love and the returns are pure joy . Welcome , sivanandan , sir . It's such an honor to have you with us today .

I started as a professor in 1974 and then joined as an IPS officer and I was given this Maharashtra Carder in 1976 and after the initial training I've been working in Maharashtra non-stop , so I'm a full fledged Maharashtra now . I speak Marathi , read , write everything . I deliver lectures also in Marathi , so I'm so happy about it .

I worked in the IPS all over the state of Maharashtra in various capacities as super-addupulis , Sattara , Sindhudurga , Latur and DCP in Pula twice . Later I got an opportunity to get my career shaped by joining the Intelligence Bureau for six years that was 87 , 93 . That actually gave a fantastic anchoring for my career in future .

Then I was an additional Commissioner of Police crime when that famous , infamous 1993 March 12th bomb blast had taken place . So I was also helping in the investigation as additional Commissioner of Police crime . Then I went to this Daxal affected area of Nagpur , Ganesh Ruli and Bandara Gondya , Chandrapur , and all that that was a three years period .

After that I got a promotion as an IG Inspector General of Police and came as Joint CP crime in Mumbai . That was the peak of my career . Actually that was a challenge where this mafia ruled Mumbai and there were 101 shootouts in a year and I was given the problem on a platter . Now you solve it better . Then I solved it . I solved it .

So last 22 years , from 2002 to now , there is not a single shootout , from 101 to 0 . I brought and maintained it for 22 years . That's a challenge which I faced and delivered the result also to Mumbai . From there I went as a Joint Director CBI covering Rajasthan , Gujarat , Goa , Maharashtra that is called Joint Director West Zone in the famous CBI .

I had IB , I had CBI , I had a Naxal affected area and six years of crime branch . That was the thing I had . Then I worked for six years as the additional Director General of Police , the rank of Commissioner of Police Nagpur , Thane , Mumbai , Mumbai . I joined after the 26-11 , 2008 attack .

Then I became the Director General of Police and retired on March 2011 . Since then I have been doing more work than before because I worked in the National Security Council Secretariat under the Prime Minister's office for one year . That was for a study in the internal and external security scenario of the country .

I went length and breadth of this place studied that subject . Then I worked with Dr Raghuram Rajan as his Chief Security Advisor for the Reserve Bank of India when he was the Governor Then . I also work in about 10 companies as Independent Director .

I also work in 15 NGOs as a trustee for returning to the society whatever they have given me the love , affection and respect At all that they had given I am returning . I also run one NGO called the Roti Bank where I am the Managing Trustee and Founder . So far we have given 1.3 crores of free meals in India .

So I am going to work like this until the last breath . So I am going to give back to the society and then enjoy the pleasure of giving to those people who can't afford to live their peacefully , comfortably .

I was the professor . I became the professor . He was made true by me by joining as a professor in 19 . Before my results came , some people came and said would you be professor in my college ? And that was a dream come true . That was a dream , actually , but then while working I found it was a dull , dreary , monotonous repeat .

I said yeah , as a young man , I can't waste my life in this . What is more challenging , the only challenge was to join the UPSC . Even this year , if you know , 11,65,000 children have appeared for 300 to 500 posts . That is the challenge I took in 1975 . And in my first attempt I was selected for IPS . That was in all , about 300 posts IAS , ips , ifs .

So I was one of those 300 people selected in the in my first attempt . So that was a dream come true . Not the IPS , they were the police . I was an unfit person actually to be the police , but that is what helped me to become a roaring success in my career .

So you've worked in so many niche areas of law enforcement . Like you said , you've been an intelligence in CBI . You have worked as a commissioner in so many different places . Which area was the toughest for you to work in personally ?

I had worked in the Naxal affected area where one could have been ambushed or one could have been shot , or one could have engaged in a battle with the Naxalites and one could have been killed . Then happened , but then I succeeded there in a great measure .

That apart , when I was selected and handpicked , you please remember the mafia of Dawud-Ubrahim Chhota , rajan , arut Gawli , amar Naik and Ashwin Naik and all of them the Hajji Mastar , karig Lala . All of them ruled Mumbai from 1940 , 50 , 60 , 70 , 80 , 90 and 2000 . So in the year 1997 , the incident took place .

So the Mumbai police were stopped from doing whatever they were doing . Because of that , the gangsters got emboldened and the encounters had nothing to do with the stopping of them . So they went and did the encounter .

The gangsters went and shot the businessman like , let us say , gulshan Kumar , sunil Katav Builder Vallabh Tucker and Opie Kukreja and various people like that . Even this . Rithik Roshan's father was shot in his arms . He is alive , rakesh Roshan . But this was all for extortion and blood was flowing on the streets .

As I mentioned , every three and a half days one man was shot in the year 1998 . Now I came halfway through . July 1st is the date I joined here , from the jungles of Gaduchroli to the jungle of Mumbai , concrete jungle of Mumbai , and I was just given the problem . And now you face it .

I had to build up a team , build the confidence and give them the wherewithal , the training , the morale , the resources and the energy to go and chase and face them and bullet for bullet , face to face , arm to arm , whatever happened , they came out together and brilliantly solved the problem .

That was the biggest challenge I have faced , madam , but , as luck would have it , god was kind and I was also morally very superior and I maintained a complete , all through my career and all correct profile .

So my people took the support of the umbrella , of the protection which I could give and I told you , from 2002 to now , there is not a single police shootout or the criminal shootout in the great city of Mumbai . All the buildings have come up , the car sales are going up , marriages are happening , people are living happily ever after .

But this was not happening in the year 97 , 98 , 99 . A lot of people of my age would remember all that , but the younger generation are shielded , protected from themselves getting exposed to such a disastrous living .

We can keep it .

And I might warn you that a little bit overdose of medicine also could kill the patient , whether it is policing or the medical profession .

But nothing can be taught in the books that can be learned on the streets . What you have learned about criminals , what you have seen , like you said , hardcore criminals indulging in unfathomable crimes , you have a better understanding of criminal psychology than any psychologist ever could .

So what part of human behavior do you think really drives these criminals to do these heinous acts ?

So you are very angry , you go and fix it by killing a lot of people . Then the other thing is the greed , madam greed , lots of greed . A lot of rich , educated , highly placed people suffer from this disease called greed . So that also leads us to commit crime , for example all this cybercrime , and criminals as well as victims are suffering from unlimited greed .

Otherwise , tell me why anybody would fall for a trap that I got a lottery of 200 crores or something where I have not bought a lottery ticket , for example KBC lottery they sent me tickets saying that with full number of Abhitha Bachchan's picture and all that saying that you have won a KBC lottery .

But I wanted to ask the question as to why I am not participating in the activity . How can you give me 200 rupees for nothing ? So I deleted . But a lot of people fall prey to that because of greed and pay any amount of money . It runs into crores sometimes .

Yesterday I read somewhere that the Bangalore based top executive had to pay 3.7 crores because he was frightened by the other people but alleging him something , something , something , and out of fright he paid 3.7 crores . Wow . So these are the reasons , madam . Basic crimes can be always . Reasons can be attributed to anger .

It can be instant , or brewing for a long time , or alleged injustice and anger together , or the greed . Lust is another reason , madam , lust , lust . That is another reason why crimes are committed so broadly . All criminal activities can be covered in this thing fright , anger , lust and greed . These are the four buckets I will put them into .

Psychologically he's wrong and mentally he's disturbed and he goes about killing people . So that is how we can explain all this .

working . Till today , you had no media . I mean , you have seen the advent of television and newspapers . All of it came up in front of you . Social media was not present then , but now we have everything from WhatsApp to Instagram to Facebook , to live videos , youtube . You know everything goes around really fast .

But do you think all this is helping law enforcement or is it hindering your work now ?

So anybody today cannot go out and do indulge in any activity without getting covered by a mobile camera . So that is the evidence collecting part for the police . It helps . But at the same time the social media and this communication capabilities helps the criminals also a great lot .

For example , the Bank of Bangladesh was divested of $830 million seven years before by unknown cyber hackers and they've worked in the Reserve Bank of Bangladesh located at Dhaka . And the Federal Reserve of USA was asked to release $830 million in Manila on a Monday morning . So the activity started on Friday . Monday morning the criminals had $830 million .

Now that is the investment . With that they can buy a quantum computer , which is the latest . It is yet to come . So the activities which you mentioned , the scientific development like social media , the Babay technology , all that has helped the criminals also as well as the police . For example , this case has not been detected yet .

For example , in Pune Cosmos Bank , about five years before , the criminals swiped 16,000 times , took away 80 crores of rupees in one day 80 crores , and they gave a gap of three days , another few swipes , another 14 crores gone . That is 94 crores in all and the case is not detected .

So to highlight your point , the science and technology does help the criminals , who are three steps ahead of the law enforcement agencies , and the police also gets help . So in one way , police find it a handicap because earlier , when I was in the crime branch six years , I worked . We had nothing of this no mobile , no CCTV , no science and technology .

With the human intelligence and covering of the entire area , with our informants and the networking , we detected almost 100% cases . But today cops come and ask oh , where is the CCTV camera ? Where is inside your house CCTV and where is your mobile recording ? If it is not there , we don't know how to detect the case .

So the involvement is positive , negative , on both sides . The criminals have evolved in a big way . The police have also evolved , revolving around this science and technology assistance , but I want to say that we can't be depending upon science and technology . We have to use the good old technique of investigating by hard work on the ground . That's it , man .

Then Indira Gandhi went to USA and asked for I mean , it was not Indira Gandhi , it was Lal Bahadur Sastri Then PL 480 was the scheme under which US was giving us tons of wheat and then that was given to people . So people were going without food and hungry they were going hungry .

I have seen that as a young boy and I was going hungry because of lack of food . Besides that , in the police , I have seen , for example , in the jungles of Gadisharoli , the Adivasis . They literally have no access to money , food , means and so many things . I have seen them eating red ants with salt crushed .

They eat it there and they hardly have any clothes to wear . They can't even cover their bodies Women can't even cover their bodies fully because of this lack of purchasing power and they were going hungry . So when I have seen this and how people could go to any extent to do anything , so that I mean , you know , in Hindi they say roti kapada makka .

That is the priority of life . You are a psychologist . The priority is , first is roti . If you get roti , do you see any clothes in your body ? If you have clothes , do you see any roof above Roti kapada makka ? So the basic need is roti . I believe that by giving nutritious meal we can attract children to the school of the downtrodden variety .

They will study , they'll qualify , they'll get a job and they will upgrade themselves in life . That is a poverty alleviation program . That is what I thought we should do . But when I started , madam , actually we had 200 million Indians going hungry and we had 1.4 tons of food was wasted against each individual going hungry .

So we had plenty of food and that the distribution was not there . So I said let us start a food rescue mission . That is , if you have a marriage in your family or a party or a get together , excess food is there . I gave a number 8655 , 8651 . You give a call to me .

Within half an hour my vehicle will come pick up the food and distribute in the neighborhood . For that we had done hunger mapping , where all hungry people are there in Mumbai and food could be delivered before it is contaminated when it is fresh . This is how we began .

We gave 5 lakh meals in 2018 and another 5 lakhs in 2019 , and COVID came and entire gatherings and activities stopped for 2 to 2.5 years . True , that's it , ma Now you tell me further . What should I say ?

And the Red Hots zone , like Dharavi , Worli and other places , were very , very seriously affected places . So the challenge was whether we start working or stop working . I thought this is the time we have to grow , so I said we will hire , borrow the capacity of hotels like Midtown Prietham in Dada one in Jogeshwari , one in Borivilli .

I started a kitchen in Chimbur , Mysore colony , so four places . I produced 47,000 meals in a day and distributed with the help of Mumbai police because they were the essential service . And we delivered 10,000 meals to Dharavi senior inspector . He will make a line , he will give that mask , he will maintain social distance and deliver the food . So we succeeded .

Even the migrant laborer , if you remember , from South India to North India , the scorching heat , they were going and dying in hundreds . So we gave them food in the Nagpur highway . Our Nagpur branch gave them footwear , water and jaggery and food also . So that time was the biggest challenge for us .

Afterwards we never went back to collecting the leftover food because in the leftover we don't know what quantity we get , we don't know how many hours before it was cooked in marriages and other things . So the contamination chance or challenge was there . So now we believe in giving only hot , fully prepared meals . We could prepare .

We got a mechanized kitchen so obviously we produce enough and more and give it to people . We give 12,000 meals a day in Mumbai alone .

They head those branches and they do the operations .

That is 2 trillion rupees a year is the budget of the government of India . So our country , in spite of being a superpower and a Vishwa Guru and all that we have raised , registered recorded 81 crore , so people looking for free food and free grains , that is a bit of a dichotomy .

We have sent people I mean we have sent our vehicle to moon , but 81 crore , so people are expecting free food . That's a bit of a dichotomy . So I am addressing this issue .

The Thane school is called the Thane Police School 70,000 square feet and 3,000 children studying in the 10th standard . They get only first class and distinction since last 15 years . If you ask me why did I build this school ? To reform the lives of the children of policemen and others ? And why did I do that ?

By risking the reputation , collecting money from friends like you ? Because I wanted to see the smiling faces of the children . So that is what gives me the . What do they call ? The gratification , satisfaction , gratification , all that , ma'am . I love the children growing with full , nutritious meal . For example , I'll elaborate .

In Mumbai , when so much wealth is there right outside let us say 60 , 70 kilometers , dahanu , palgar and other places the children are suffering from malnutrition and even grown-up suffer from that , the Adivasis .

So in a country as mighty as India , or Bharat as they call it , we can't allow this to happen when so much of wealth is there on the other side of the fence . I was looking for that word , madam , which I was not getting when I was talking to you . That is Ikigai . That Ikigai is a Japanese concept , where it is a .

What is the reason for you to get up and run and work ? That is Ikigai . My Ikigai is this feeding people , alleviating poverty , removing hunger and seeing smiles on the faces . This is my Ikigai . How beautiful .

That is where my constables and havaldars , who were 30 , 40 years elder to me they taught me how to sit on a road and fold your legs and then sit and write a panchenama . You know what is a panchenama ? Yes , yes .

And then body will be lying on the road and you have to write head is towards the south and the legs are towards this and legs are sprawled , body is lying in this position , that position , injuries are here , there and all that you know . So that is what is that training and teaching and learning and absorbing

. That is the finest part in my life , because that is where you learn the policing skills and , as you said earlier , how psychologically analyze people and get the truth from one person to the other .

For example , in a criminal gang , when we catch one person , how do you make him speak the truth and get the secret of all others who are conniving , conspiring with him in that particular crime . So these were the most enjoyable moments in the beginning . But then this skill is adding on and on and on . We go on learning as we go . There is no end to it .

That is the enjoyable part . Every crime teaches you a new angle , a new way of looking at it , because there is a criminal with innate intelligence . For example , this guy , shraddha Valkar case , cut her into 35 pieces and put her in the fridge and then deep freezing and dispose the body part in Delhi , noida or wherever it is . How did he learn this ?

By seeing a movie called Dexter , and repeatedly he saw and learned that and did , and after this was highlighted in the press , another case Nikki and some Yadav case in Delhi was happened . So like that , if you see , each criminal thinks that he can add his own intelligence and make it better so that the police cannot arrest .

So this Aftab would have added his own intelligence to the Dexter case . Dexter is a movie which we saw in the cinema and in the TV , and so then the next one thinks I am better than Aftab , so I will add my intelligence . That is how they build up .

Police also has to do the same From each case they study and each case they have to build their capabilities and analyze the criminal activities .

And so , for example , in the year 1997 , 1998 , 1999 , 2001, . Every time there is a shootout the press will put it on the first page and they put a bullet in the heart of Mumbai and bleeding will be shown . They will say this is the 77th shootout . And what is the police doing ? What is Shivanandam doing ? Why is he incapable ? All that would come .

So that is tremendous pressure and you also feel responsible for having the authority or the owner's responsibility of saving the lives of innocent people . So that is where the pressure comes . If you ask me , how did I manage it ? By managing it personally .

Maybe sometimes some music or some meditation or some early morning walk with the cold breeze on your face and get ideas to implement during the day , and also some good outlets like some programs or some music or entertainment and things like that . So that does give you a valve .

But the darker side is , madam , many , many policemen would give themselves to this habit of getting addicted to tobacco or drugs or violence , for example , beating up people on the road or in the custody in the various things like that , or even extra marital affairs . These are all outlets for people who are working under pressure .

These are not justifications , but I'm only outlining what is happening in the people , like police force working under tremendous pressure . In my case , of course , I had this blood pressure and diabetes as a gift of this hard time that is 98 , 2001 .

So I'm still maintaining extremely good health by discipline , getting up at five o'clock and sleeping at 9.30 and working all through the day . So no disease except this lifestyle disease called diabetes and this one .

But then I have escaped the other disastrous consequences by reading philosophy , madam spiritual , for example Vivekananda or Paramahansa or Ramana Maharishi of the South India . These things did give a lot of solace that way . So you don't internalize all the problems and you analyze it as an external happening . Don't take it on your psyche and suffer .

That's what I have learned . That is how I have coped .

It's simple , it's effective and it's very direct . So I'm sure it's very doable . So let me ask you a question that I ask all my podcast guests . We all keep a first aid box in our house , something in which we'll keep a bandaid , we'll keep some painkillers For those little minor cuts and bruises that we get during the day .

Now , imagine you have a mental first aid box , something in which you can keep things which are very precious to you . It could be a photograph , it could be a song , qr code , it could be a chocolate , but something that , as soon as you open , you feel happy . So if you've had a bad day , you can come home and open your mental first aid kit .

So if you were to make one , what would you personally put in it ?

So these are all things . So family , I will say , the best first aid kit is having a loving family where you share your problems , they share their joys and you have a mood swing . And , of course , satsang , you know , keeping good company of educated people , learned people and learn from them .

I have collected a vast amount of books which I read and deliver lectures every day . So these are all small , small outlets . Ma'am , somebody can play golf , for that matter . I never played golf for that because I didn't get time . Or go to theater . You know , see those Marathi plays and things like that . So everybody can find out his own ways .

Some karnatic music even people dance . You know , I never danced in my life , for this evening of my life I cannot lift my leg at dance . But then people could devise their own innocuous , non-poisonous ways of giving an outlet for their hard feelings .

I will prefer family , good friends , that is , satsang , and the company of the educated , and the books , maybe some music , maybe some spiritual knowledge , all these things would be your first aid kit . Thank you .

When I was commissioner police , because of the trauma of this 26 11 2008 , I Asked one professional doctor you soon , much as well to be on the police doctors panel and be available for the policeman , for Counseling and all that .

So I would ask you to start a bunch of professionals to be available or online , online basis for the policeman and their families to reach out and get counseling , because they deserve help . So , about five , ten of your doctors , if they can join and start an online portal , that would be a very , very great help .

So will you help the police is the one question would I would like to ask you ?

We always fall short of manpower when it comes to psychology , but in the way you've structured it , I don't think it is impossible . If we get together , have an online portal where we can do something on a regular basis , I would love to be a part of it . We've done it for doctors .

In fact , during the pandemic , I dedicated one and a half years of my practice only to helping doctors who are suffering from mental health issues . So if we can do it for one group of people when they needed it , if we have identified that , yes , the police force also needs help and will be better with it , then why not ?

I'm sure I can find like-minded people to join in .

There will be thousands of people seeking help because it will be professional and free . So you know , this is for offering this help absolutely sub .

This is an inspiration that I think all of us need to take back with us that as a single person , nothing is impossible . If I were to think today that I will start an NGO and be able to feed more than one and a half crore children , I would say , oh my god , it's too big , I can't do it .

But when I look at your journey , when I look at what you have accomplished as one single human being , it makes us all Realize we are all enough . We can all do more than enough . So a very , very big . You know . Personal note of gratitude from my side . I'm going back very inspired to do something which is bigger than that .

Then you know what I think I can do . There is so much that we can contribute and there's so much we can do as a group . You made a team and your team worked in every single bit , so even we should do that . We should all come together , bring power to the table and then see the change that happens .