¶ Anita Dongre
Welcome to D-Tangle , where we untangle the complexities of life one conversation at a time . I'm your host , dr Kinjal Goel , a psychologist and a writer . Our guest today is the leading lady of fashion in India , ms Anita Dongre .
Starting off small , anita now has an employee base of over 2,800 individuals and thousands of independent artisans working towards a sustainable business practice . The seventh most Google fashion designer worldwide . She has also been featured on various prestigious lists , including Forbes 50 over 50 and Forbes India's list of most powerful business women .
For me , she is the ultimate inspiration , but she is a member of FETA and her products and clothes are 100% vegan and cruelty free . Welcome to D-Tangle , anita , and thank you so much for joining me today .
Thank you so much for this very kind introduction .
Well , anita , there's so many things that I want to ask you about your label , about your work , your journey . Let's get started with the questions and let's see where they lead us . So let's talk about your inspiration and the beginning of your journey . Lead us in . How did you start and when did you reach your tipping point ?
You know I'm very fortunate that I had a very young age new that I wanted to take up fashion design . I realized at the age of 15 , when I was in my 10th grade , and then I looked for fashion designing courses and I found S&D when I was in my 12th grade and that's it . I think the week I entered that college I realized that I love what I do .
You know , previously I was not a great . I was a very average student in school and very average student in college , I think only because whatever interested me I wasn't doing . But once I got into S&D I really , really I think I blossomed . It's so way back then .
But I left college and then started work for two , three years for some experience and then I started the business from my home .
How nice . So it's very different nowadays to hear of people who know what they want to do so early on . A lot of youngsters are floundering when they're in their 10th grade , you know .
but I think that's okay . I don't think we should expect every 15 year old to know what they want to do . It's everybody's journey is different and I think it's so important for young people to try out a few if they're not sure of what they want to do . You know , do probably small internships , visit a few places and they can take their time .
Somebody will know what they want to do at 15 , somebody will know what they want to do at 30 , somebody at 25 , but it's all depends on your own journey .
True , everyone has a different time to blossom . Yes , yes . So , anitha , let's talk about your brand . What makes me very excited about the brand is that it's so boldly and proudly vegan no animal abuse , no animal products . Is this a personal value you've always had , or a family value that you've brought in ?
You know it's a very personal value and a family value , both , I think you know we come from a family I come from a Sindhi family and non-veg is eaten , though my parents didn't eat it that regularly , but maybe once or twice a month when we were entertaining .
We basically brought up on a vegetarian diet but , yes , as a young kid I did eat mutton and fish and chicken was , you know , fed to us , I think . When I was about 13 or 14 , I got transformed . I saw goat being taken for slaughter and I saw the look in that animal's eyes .
You know so much of fear and so much of pain and I don't think I could ever eat after that . And then most of my siblings , all of us , became vegetarians .
Some of us are vegans , some are vegetarian , and since then I just have a deep love for animals because they don't have a voice and I think humanity has exploited animals since centuries and we continue exploiting animals for our own selfish needs and this is my personal philosophy and I know you know so many debates start on this veg , non-veg situation .
True , I just I think everybody has to live their life by their personal beliefs and philosophies and this is my personal belief that I don't want to eat an animal . I don't want to be part of that pain and suffering an animal goes through when an animal is slaughtered and yeah , it's . It's just my belief that I don't want to .
I mean , I don't want to , I don't want to create any any , I don't want to create , I don't want to be the one who's creating violence , because I think animals die a very violent step and I think today , this just to , and you know , especially today , when animals are factory farmed , that really , really pains me , because they're being farmed to be killed
Eventually . They're , you know , they are raised in terrible , terrible , terrible conditions . So I wish for a world where every animal was free and every animal was a free being .
It's quite encouraging in the international market also Now . I have not bought leather in the last 10 years , but there were no options earlier now .
The leather industry is a huge , huge abuser of animals .
But now you see a lot more options , even in the larger luxury brands . Now there are so many vegan options which were missing a few years ago , so I think we're all headed in the right direction .
Yeah , and that's what we are also doing in the brand . We are in constant touch with manufacturers who are making alternates to animal leather and there's so much research going on in this field leathers from mushroom , leathers from different pineapple stem , a lot of fruits wastage has been converted into leather , so I don't think we need to use animal leather .
There are a lot of alternates now available and there are a lot more going to come in . Those . All these new materials almost look like and feel like and have the same properties as animal leather , so one doesn't really need to buy animal .
Buy an animal leather bag to look fashionable , because I don't think another animal's pain should be or something that you flaunt .
I couldn't agree more . Let's talk about emotional and personal space . Does this reflect in your designs ? Has there been , let's say , a collection that reflected how you were feeling in the few months prior ?
Absolutely , I think . As a woman designer and a very emotional human being , for that matter , I think for me , creation is an emotional process . I think design has to come from within , and it's a combination of from within . It's a combination of observing what's happening around you .
It's a combination of taking inspiration from around you , but then , ultimately , it comes from what you feel within you . What do you want to ? You know , how do you want to express what you're feeling currently , and which is why it keeps evolving , it keeps changing , and which is why I find design very , very exciting .
Whatever you do tomorrow , you don't you know what you're doing tomorrow you've not done today . Every day is a different day .
So basically saying you can't be the same designer twice what you are today , you're not tomorrow .
Absolutely , absolutely . You're growing , you're evolving and , in that sense , your designs will always reflect that change you are going through within as a person , yourselves . How lovely .
So let's talk about what fashion does to the people who consume it . Now , there are two very different things that can happen . It can empower people . It can also make people body conscious at times . So what are your thoughts on this ? I mean , how do you distinguish that one should feel empowered and not conscious ?
I think that this is the most exciting part of my job . I think what really really makes me happiest is when I created a design and I happen to be at one of my stores and I see somebody wear it and the emotion that goes to that person's mind at that time .
When I'm in the store and I see a 2B bride walk in and find her dream length and she wears that and she comes out of that trial room , and what she feels , or when it's a young girl of 18 , 19 who's buying her first Lenga , I'll never forget that I had a very close friend's daughter who came in to get her first Lenga .
You know , she just finished her graduation . She never worn a Lenga and we outfitted her in this beautiful Lenga Chodi and she just came out of the trial room and she just kept looking at her and said , oh my God , I'm feeling so wonderful , I'm feeling so feminine , I'm feeling I'm feeling like a woman and she looked so different .
You know , in a Lenga Chodi whether it's a girl wearing a saree for the first time . I think what I love about fashion is the emotions it brings within you .
I meet men who tell me you know , I my when I met my wife and when I went on the first date she was wearing this red dress and when I asked her where it's from , she said it's from your brand . So I just think fashion and clothing has so many memories and so many emotions and and it's so empowering .
You know today , if you're wearing the right outfit , as a woman or a man , you're ready to face the world . You wake up in the morning and just wearing the right clothes can take your confidence level up another . You know 10 , 100% . So clothing is empowering , clothing is gives you confidence and clothing makes you feel good .
A well cut garment just makes you feel wonderful about yourself . It makes you feel you can take on the world . It's special what you wear for special occasions . You'll always remember . You know , this is what I wore , this is how I felt in it . I think to me it's pure emotion . And then today , as a maker , I just feel that you know what am I ?
I'm just a catalyst between . I try to work with a lot of women artisans . I try as far as possible .
So for me , fashion is I'm this creator who is the catalyst , who is creating designs so that , you know , a woman somewhere in rural India can embroider or stitch and empower her family , and some other woman in maybe New York or London or Dubai would be wearing it and it makes her day beautiful .
So yeah , it's so nice , it's such a beautiful way to actually bring the world together , I mean yeah , I just feel this is where I'm bringing the world together .
There's a woman wearing this somewhere in the western part of the world and then some others in a little village , or woman is you know , embroidering it and and it's just so beautiful . I just think , yeah , I love , I love that about my job .
How nice that there are such subtle yet powerful values that you bring into your workspace . How do you bring this to your whole team , I mean , you know , from production to sales . The mindset has to be the same , isn't it ? But is it a tough job for you ?
Well , it's not a tough job , because I think , as a founder , you should first of all , lead by example . And now that the organization is so large and it's not a small you know , it's not a one store business where I could , you know , talk to the teams personally and tell them how I would like to , how I would like them to conduct themselves .
But we have trainers who train the front end people and I must say they do a fantastic job of it . And I've always told the trainers and I've always told my front end team that everybody who walks into the store , you have to treat them as a guest in your own house .
You know , you have to make sure that they are very well looked after and taken care of , and I think the glowing comments we get on our customer care IDs is just proof of that . We did the most amazing reviews where they say that you know we were so well looked after and I'm just so proud of my team and I read reviews like that .
So one tries , one tries to ensure that everybody follows this .
Is there something that you learned , which you know ? Probably you didn't learn in college , about the deep connection between fashion and the mind , let's say , with color or with style ? Do certain colors evoke certain emotions ? What's your take on this ?
In college I was too young to understand the you know , the direct relation between emotion and fashion . I mean , obviously I just went there to study as a student and I was so new to that world . But over time obviously one has understood that colors have their own , you know , have their own emotion .
How I'm feeling is important to fashion Something when I discovered . Much later , as you evolve , you discover this True .
So if I were to ask you to give your 20 year old self-sum advice maybe a younger self-sum advice personal , professional either what would it be ?
I know . I mean there's so much I would have done . I mean there are definitely things I would have done differently . But I suppose you're meant to make a few mistakes and that itself becomes your own learning and your own journey , because I don't think anybody's journey can be one smooth ride .
I think our lives are meant to be a little bumpy and have a few twists and turns , and probably that makes them exciting . If everything went smooth it would probably get boring . So I have made my share of mistakes . When I think back , but I've learned from those mistakes and I just think a wise person tries and avoids making that same mistake twice .
¶ Challenges and Triumphs in Fashion Industry
No True , we all have to learn . I mean , anybody can tell you what they can tell you . But I think till you don't go through , till you don't make your own mistakes , it's never a learning . You have to experience all that yourself to know that I could have done this better . But call it all . I'm blessed and fortunate .
It's been a great journey and I still have a long way to go . I'm grateful for everything that's come my way . I mean I know I've put in a lot of hard work , but I think everyone works hard . But I think sometimes there's a divine grace that comes in and makes things happen , and I'm always mindful and grateful for that divine grace .
I think this attitude of gratitude is very important , no matter how big you are as a company or how small you are as a company . Gratitude towards everything just elevates the experience of work , isn't it ?
Absolutely .
Lovely . So let me ask you if you were to give advice to a younger designer who's just starting out , do you think that everyone needs a formal education and fashion , or do you think sometimes it's just an inherent skill that people can use even without a formal education ?
I think if you're inherently skilled and you don't have a formal education , you'll still do fine . But at the same time , a formal education is just so nice . It's so lovely to be a student and to learn . Oh well , you know , you learn from the best professors in the business .
Most of our institutes today have some amazing teachers , so I would advise everyone to take a formal training . I mean , why not ? If you can afford it , please do a formal training . Yes , if you're talented , you learn on the job . But you'll never forget those years in college because they're just so precious .
Well , that is a really nice perspective , because you can never be a student at that age again .
Yeah , yeah , and just enjoy being a student and enjoy learning and enjoy speaking to your teachers , because that's never going to come back . You're going to miss all of this .
I agree . So let's talk about the authority gap . In most businesses , men are taken more seriously than women . Women have to prove themselves a little bit more . You know you have to speak a little bit louder to be heard . Do you think this also exists in the fashion business ?
Absolutely it does . It just exists everywhere , regardless of what profession you're in .
I think it's such deep conditioning in our country that all in the world or lower , not just in our country I think this is a problem faced all over the world , and I think now the times have changed and now women are more and more in the workforce and everyone is talking about gender equality , and I think there's so much change that has happened in the last
decade and so much more will happen in the coming years . But there definitely is a difference , and it's just so sad that women have to work twice as hard , but they do to prove themselves .
I mean , they're anyway doing a double job , they're anyway looking out of the home , and there's just no gender equality , because the woman is expected to even run her home and if she wants a career , she's got to still do that , and so I think really what we all have to aim for is when it's a gender equal world where the man also takes responsibility in the
house , if both of them are working outside the house too .
Actually there is no way around it . I mean , we can't expect anything to come about unless this happens .
Like we're getting there . I think the last decade has been so much change has come in .
So I had this very funny experience recently . Just last week I was getting an email from a company where we were collaborating on something and they kept referring to me as Sir . Now , because they were an international company , I gave them the benefit of the doubt they would refer to me as Dr Groel and Sir .
So I connected them that I'm a lady and I go by she , her . So immediately they started referring to me as Ma'am , but they removed Doctor , so I was then only Kinjal , although my credentials remain the same . But they just did not use the title anymore than I had to correct them again that you have to use my correct title .
So I think this is very inherent . You know , women gets a person name . True , absolutely true . Well , we hope that this change is soon enough . So tell me very personally what parts of fashion excite you the most and what is the most heartbreaking part of this work .
What excites me most is creating . I mean , I really don't enjoy the operational side of the business Though as being a founder , I have to be involved in the operational side too but what I really , really enjoy is designing , creating , traveling , discovering craft , discovering how I can transform lives , heartbreaking . There are so many things that are heartbreaking .
Heartbreaking is sometimes when our designs get ruthlessly copied by copycat brands and I sold at one tenth of the price . I mean designs that one labor is over for one year to create , say a print or an embroidery , and it gets copied within minutes of it appearing on Instagram . That breaks my heart because original design has to have a value .
You've spent months and months doing that and it's so easy and so quick to copy . And then what breaks my heart is when customers go buying those copies knowing it's an Anita Dongree copy . That truly breaks my heart . I really think the customers should now start .
¶ Building a Mental First Aid Kit
Being a little more fiercely loyal . Yes , yes , I agree . I think this is something that the onus falls completely on the customer , that , if you know it , stay away from it .
Yes , at least try to .
So , anita , let me ask you a personal question that I ask all my guests . We all know what's a physical first aid box , something in which we keep some band-aids , maybe some painkillers , some antiseptic for those minor cuts and bruises .
But if you were to keep a mental first aid box with things which make you instantly happy for those days when you're emotionally run down and you just want to take care of your emotions , what would you put in a box like this which , the minute you open , you would feel really happy ?
Well , I do . I have a little notes to myself which is on my iPad and on my phone . It's like a little letter to Anita which I have written to myself for days when I feel down and out .
It's just some wisdom that I've gained over my life with aapaas and over the years which is put in a long , long letter to me and I just read that and then I feel centered and I feel fine .
That's one thing I do , and the second thing is would be just to call my mom or maybe go see her , because to me she's such an inspiration of , of resilience that just being with her also just takes me in a very , very happy space .
How nice . That seems like a really effective first aid box .
I mean , you have something which is family , anyone in the family mom mostly , but I have two sisters . I have three brothers in a very close knit family . So just spending time with family is my first aid kit and that led to myself .
How nice . I think I'm going to have this as a takeaway . You know , putting in something to yourself and keeping it handy can actually help a lot of us when we are having bad days .
So yeah , you got to be your own healer because you know , you know , you know your mind is gone in straight in a different direction because it's just bringing the mind back to awareness , to gratitude , to just stuff like that . I think , gratitude and awareness .
How nice . Well , this one I'm going to try to rate . So , before we come to an end of this discussion , is there any question that you would like to ask me as a psychologist ?
Oh , wow , that's so interesting . Yeah , I mean , you know , I I started the business 40 years ago . Now there's a lot of young people who work in the company and you know there's so much being said about Gen Z , gen Y , and the way they think and the way they so .
And you know , in a company or where you're not today , dealing with various generations , right from somebody who is 60 to somebody who's as young as 21 , 22 . And I kind of , how do you , how do you communicate with them ? So that you know , yeah , how do you communicate with so many different generations ?
Because I think this , this they need different communication skills .
I think this is one of the most pertinent questions anybody has asked . I mean , this is something parents struggle with , this is something employers struggle with and this is something employees also struggle with , because , at the end of the day , everybody needs great communication for any kind of success .
Yeah .
I think if you've understood that , you know a generation has changed . That is your first step in awareness . What happened earlier is generations changed every maybe 10 to 15 years , but now generations are changing every two years .
You know they come up with a new mindset , they are so different and understanding what they need , maybe not accepting all of it , but just understanding things , that awareness , for example , instant gratification .
So if there is a younger employee who needs , like you know , an instant bonus or an instant validation for good work , it might work better for them rather than for an older employee who might be very happy doing great work over six months and then being applauded . That's what .
I'm learning . Now I'm just reading up a lot and I'm learning , and I'm learning to communicate differently with different people . I realize that I can't change the person opposite me , but I have to change every time I talk to a different person .
Oh , and it can be a total game changer .
I mean once you know that .
You know the person in front is from a different generation altogether and they can be very effective . I mean , I think this next generation is very powerful If communication .
Oh , yes , yes .
So when I asked this mental first aid box question usually my podcast guests are , you know , in the same age group and they have been working for at least two or three decades and I get very nice metaphysical answers . I get beautiful boxes .
I asked this question to my 14 year old daughter and she said mom , you know , I'll put all of these nice things , but I'll also put a ward of cash , because I also need retail therapy at times .
And I said I spoke like a true 14 year old , and it's true it works , so why not ?
They know what works for them , you know the generation is indeed powerful and they're quite centered into what they want .
¶ Exploring Fashion Brand Artisan Work
But , it's been such a nice conversation , anita . I mean from all the experience that you've brought into the conversation . There's so much that we can actually see .
When you look at a fashion brand , all you see is luxury and comfort and beauty , but you know all these artisans working in the background , these dots being joined , this whole picture being formed across the globe . I think it's magnificent . So thank you for showing this part to us and thank you for joining me on data angle . It's been such a pleasure .
Thank you so much for having me .