Welcome to Dental Unscripted. Where Mike Dinsio and Paula Quinn break down the practice ownership journey, one episode at a time. Starting up, buying, and running a successful dental practice. All right, all right, guys. Welcome back to another great episode of Dental Unscripted. We are in the middle of Shark Week. It is here again, back again, the third year in a row. We may have missed last year. I don't know. It was a crazy year, but we did Kids Week last year.
So yeah, this is the third Shark Week, and I'm super pumped because this whole week has been epic. uh knowledgeable amazing general contractors that specialize in dental and boy do they know a lot more than I do about the topic and I'm excited because we're getting an opportunity to bring steve anderson back on the program this is his second I will say his second time being on the program And Steve Anderson is with Denco.
You might know him from his book where we'll put a plug and a link down below. If you want to pick up his book, it's an excellent book. Steve, welcome back to the program, my friend. How you doing, buddy? Good. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, absolutely. I threw Steven a curveball. This was actually scheduled four hours from now, but Steve was able to jump on. So he just he's just ready to go at any moment of time, which which is something that I love.
Steve, tell me a little bit about Danko and you and your philosophy, because you and I get into a lot of conversations.
about the business of dentistry it you and I end up talking a lot more about just hammers and nails you know we we talk about the business of dentistry and being a good leader and how to do this right but like tell tell us a little bit about steve and and denko what you guys are all about over there in the in arizona that's where steve is primarily out of I don't think he's steve do you do stuff outside of arizona I don't think so no just arizona yeah Yeah.
So, so give us your little, uh, a little plug about, uh, Denco and your, your company and, and you. Uh, Steve Anderson, uh, been doing this just dental since, uh, uh, uh, and so we're coming up, gosh, I hate to do the math, but it's, that's a lot of years, you know, uh, but we sure have enjoyed it. We've done, uh, completed over a thousand design build offices and, And the fun thing is, is, uh, helping people make better choices.
And that's really the premise of everything we do is when I first, uh, was looking for, what do I do better and how can I be a better resource at driving work one morning? And at that point I was doing everything.
And I shortly realized that, uh, in that short, fifteen minute, uh, drive that there was a big need in the dental market and, It became Denco Dental Construction and I ended up getting rid of all the other clients and really started focusing and quickly found that there's a lot of specialists out there that sell their Kool-Aid, but they take the client and try to put the client into their Kool-Aid box and make it work for them rather than basically finding out what's important to the dentist,
what the dentist is about and who they are and how unique they are. and making their experience and making everything about them instead. And that's kind of where I took off. Yeah. And so, Steve, because you have so many years of doing this, how have things changed? I'm just curious. I haven't asked anybody else this question this week. How have things changed over this? We were kind of just talking about how the world has totally changed.
I mean, I can't even imagine how your world has changed over the, again, can't do the math. Well, you know, well, first we're talking about, uh, you know, the Walmart mentality and then, you know, everyone wants a cheaper, and then we're talking about the Amazon, uh, vibe where you want it faster. And then we're talking about COVID and how, uh, things Dennis for a short time stuck their head in the sand and, uh, didn't want to even try anything.
And when instead they should have been invested in themselves and now we have a new market, the new market is the operatories look different, and the hallways look different. And the how people are greeted it, it was interesting. And when COVID happened, all of a sudden, Dennis started realizing I don't need a waiting room that big, because also, they had to get real creative. And then I still had to do better scheduling. I couldn't agree more.
It's one of the very first things that me as a consultant looks at is the front office and the waiting room. Nobody's waiting anymore. If people are waiting, what are you doing in the back keeping people waiting? Unless you're a Medicaid office that has a whole family sitting out in the front. It's a huge waiting room. You're exactly right. Well, it was interesting. We had an office and we were just finishing it right before COVID. And they went on and just knocked it dead.
But the biggest thing she said when I went and did a one-year review, she says, I wish I would have done another operatory if I didn't have this damn big waiting room and I could have done more production. And it was just, great mindset for me. But also, you know, it's interesting, over the years, I've seen where the operatories went from two sinks in every operatory down to one to a T wall to now that's just a sink out in the hallway and no sinks in the operatories.
And no cabinets on the side of the operatories as the common denominator no overhead ceiling post lights or track lights and I know their loops I mean it's it's changed dramatically even the x-rays you know the x-rays on the wall I love I love this so so guys like as you can tell uh steve gets really into the design piece and this is exactly where I wanted to take this episode because We've had this whole discussion about this whole week about design build versus bid and all the things.
And the overwhelming way of doing it today, as I interview the top contractors in the country, is a design build slash design assist where you, the contractor, has either in-house or partnering up with a designer outhouse. And you guys collaborate and make decisions.
make a deal happen make a budget happen make get creative with budgets and all the things and um anyways one of the best things about steve and denko construction is their ability to really dig in and start thinking about workflow and the design element uh I had steve actually on one of my clients not too long ago and he was giving more feedback than the architect was And I'm like, dude, the roles are kind of reversed here.
So Steve, let's get into some of the design and how you collaborate and how you get a doctor from, oh, here's a shell or a cold shell, warm shell. How do we go from that to submit plans? And what's your part in it as a GC? What's your part in that process? That's the question. Yeah. I find what works best for myself and our clients is to get involved early and a lot of times even before the architect gets involved. And the reason being is asking those questions that usually don't get asked.
It's the old adage of you don't know what you don't know. And a lot of dentists don't know what to say or what to do. And a lot of times I've seen plans developed literally by they had the square footage. So they just draw something. And then the dentist doesn't have a clue what they're looking at and they're going, well, that's the architect. So he knows what he's doing and they sign off, go to work. And I I've literally had that happen a number of years ago.
One that really sticks in my mind was a client, uh, over in Mesa. And he had a dentist that was going to be bigger than him coming in partnership with him. And he had, he was going to build out six more ops, but he goes, here's my plans. They're permitted. Let's go to work. And I said, I said, I said, timeout. I said, let's talk about who you are. What's your agenda. What's what's going on. What's driving this need for expansion. And then can I look at your office?
And when I looked at his office, came back, sat down and I go, you probably hate your operatories. And his mouth dropped and he says, well, how do you know? He says, well, it's so tight with the headwall. You got lots of length, but you have your, your utilities were set in such a way. And I remember this from ten years prior, you hired this professional. And he got less than two feet at the head wall between the head of the, it was like eight inches.
And I said, you always have to turn your chairs. Don't you? And he says, I hate it. And I said, rolled out the plants and six more ops, exactly the same. Oh my gosh. And I, and I, and I said, you know, that you could fix this real easily and says, huh? That's possible. But again, nobody asked, asked the question, asked the question and, It was head over a six foot hallway outside his existing operatories. We moved it back a foot and we didn't even have to bust the floor to change the plumbing.
And he just he was ecstatic. Well, I think I think that's really good, Steve, because like doctors don't know what's possible. I'm always talking about my clients. They've never done it before. They trust the professionals to take them on this journey. I'm going to go unscripted here for a second. I feel like there's less trust in the world today with my podcast, this one, with books like yours. There's a lot of information out there, Facebook groups.
People are getting a lot of information, dentists that are listening right now, driving to work. You guys have a ton of information and then you digest it And then you kind of go through this process and there's less trust with the team, including me and Steve and the rest of the dental world. And that's where mistakes happen, in my opinion. And we need to get back to a world where our clients trust us again. Well, I wholeheartedly agree. But also...
Dentists, everyone can truly sense if you really care and if you're really doing your best, you know, you know, you're, most people are, can be figured out and you can only lie and you can only do things for different reasons that people won't, you know, they'll figure it out eventually. Yeah. A hundred percent. But the, but the big issue is, is, you know, I tell clients, are they about helping you and making you better? Or are they about your wallet?
And, you know, that's the one thing I've always appreciated about you, Mike, is you always lay it out there and you give a great price for what you do. It's incredible. But on top of that, you care. And I mean, I know, I mean, I was just listening to a podcast of office we did together a few years, about a year ago, and it was so fun to listen to the clients and the response and how much they enjoyed the process. And there's a key is, are you enjoying the process? Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Well said.
I mean, there's a lot to a construction process between permitting and equipment selection and building. And there's just so much. And it's very stressful to do a startup. And do you enjoy it? I love that.
Well, you know, when COVID happened and, you know, I had finished my first big book the you know I did the blueprints for success and then I and then people said well you need to write all the stuff you lecture about and I said oh I don't want to do this more writing more writing but I finished it was three hundred and twenty some pages and and I finished it and then covet happened and I barely finished it and I'm going damn And I ended up rewriting it and added a hundred pages
to it and made five books out of it. But what was interesting is it was even a learning curve for me, because as I was going through that, I'm going, I missed out. I forgot the first chapter and I had to rewrite and add a first chapter. And the biggest thing, as I look back at all the clients, the thing that they forget about, and it would save them so much time, money and effort and focus and everything.
is just realize who they are and then hold fast to it because so many people have these little sales gimmicks that they sell them and then they go off in these tangents and then they you have to full ring and come back and they waste so much time money and effort and instead if they fully truly understand who they are and what they're about what's important to them it's going to save them time money and effort Yeah, no, totally. I agree.
One of the interviews I just had with Chad Hill, Hill Construction in Colorado, and he said, you got to find someone that says no to you. Yeah. He was talking about like doctors are like, hey, I'm going to we need to build out all the ops right out of the gate. And Chad was and this is what you were saying, too, is you got to look at you got to we got to look out for our clients because you can you can. you can tell when someone's trying to sell you. Right.
And so and his whole thing was, hey, no, it doesn't make sense to do those ops yet. We'd love to build it out, but you're not even close to that. You got to find people that can tell, you know, and I've lost opportunities as a consultant by telling someone on a consult, someone calls me and I'm like, I don't love that strategy. And here's why. I'll help you do anything you want, but here's the challenge. And guess what? They didn't hire me. And hey. That's okay.
I think professionals need to say no more and we got to care more. And I think you're right. Okay. So this idea from plans to permits, you really embrace that process, Steve? You help that part?
And I'll say this, sorry to interrupt, but mechanicals engineering plumbing you know the plumbing electric uh electrical hvac those are the most expensive things of a project that you touch right yeah and that's that kind of that first set and I've seen over the years now so many people over engineer the crap out of things I've just seen it.
And I just, the importance of a contractor that knows what they're doing and how to like do it the right way before it gets into the plans to me is invaluable. An architect could over-engineer the crap out of it. So how do you go about that process, Steve? Like how do you, yeah. Well, first I asked permission to use an architect that I have found that will listen. He doesn't have an ego, right? one that will actually listen.
And then also when we're part of a meeting and we're doing the design on the floor plan and tweaking it and making it more about the dentist and asking them some, you know, giving them feedback of you know maybe eighty percent of the dentist will do this or twenty percent of this and they say I want to do this and say well you're one in fifty that'll do that but you know uh is it worth the risk and will you really have value in it and simple little things like having a shower you know
but you know there's all these little things that come up and so What we do is we design it, we get the floor plan. And then once that's signed off, we do the power and ceiling plan and we work hand in hand with the client and the architect. And then that gets created. It goes off to engineering at the same time. What we do is we do the material finishes with them. And then when.
If something changes, I get it to the architect because once in a while, as they go through and we start talking about cabinetry and they go, Whoa, I don't want this here. I need that there. And, and sometimes we may need to make a few tweaks on something that's already been approved and get the plans modified, adjusted. They come to me. We review them before it goes over to the city and at the city, once it's permitted, we take all the final, uh, material finishes, all the cabinet drawings.
and everything, and I apply them to the cabinet drawings, to the finished permitted drawings. I'm sorry. And the reason I do that is there's one place. I want the guys in the field to know that there's one place to go for everything. They're not searching a bunch of folders and everything's right there. And whether we do it digitally and pull it up on an iPad or a tablet, or whether it's the hard plans, but And we call those yellow plans just for nothing else.
We literally make the first page yellow. And the reason for that is, Hey, I want to know when I show up on a job that the right set of plans are there.
And, but by doing that, I've found that several things happen is one is usually even though the client has signed off in the plans and signing off on the floor plan, ceiling power plans, and, uh by the time it gets to the permit there's always something that changes yeah all of a sudden all of a sudden they've gone to adec and they came back and go you know I really like that headball system or or they come back and say you know what I really do want those overhead lights you know
and I took them out or whatever it might be but you know then there's an opportunity to add all those things all those notes and then we go to work I love that. Yeah. So, so, so, so folks, as you can hear, you know, that, that process to get you from floor plan to permitting the contractor, the equipment reps are very, very important to that process. I, I, I want to pull back.
There's an element to this that we have to touch today and it's this design assist idea, this design build idea, not doing a hard bit. And in that, In that there's a speed element that needs to be discussed because... Please. In a world where landlords are not giving enough free rent... Yes.
arguably not enough ti dollars with the rise of the cost of labor and everything but that's a whole nother topic for the real estate guys to answer let's see let's just talk about well let me give you an example let me give you an example right now hold on let me let me frame it up for the for the folks that don't even know what we're talking about right now so So landlords will give free rent a period of time to build your space, to do all the due diligence,
to submit the plans, to build it out. Steve's part of that process. And if there's not enough time, let's just say they give you five, six months. That's oftentimes not enough time to get from concept to permitting to finish construction. And so if you're going to do a hard bit, actually, Steve, explain that now. How does the design work? bid or sorry, design build, design build process that you guys do that pretty much everybody that we've talked to this week does.
Explain how much faster it is to get from concept to grand opening when you have this idea of design build. The largest variable is part of the country and city municipality requirements on And the average in the valley here, and we have twenty three municipalities, is typically about two months to get a permit. And we actually will have a set of plans to the city in three to four weeks. But then we know whether there's red lines or whatever.
But by the time it's permitted, you've got three months. Then then on top of that, you got construction. And I learned an important lesson that I add some time to clients. So I tell clients five months, we typically are done in just over four and a half months, average, uh, large tenant improvement. And the tenant improvement is building out whether it's a space we have to gut out or build it out or whatever it might be, uh, for a new dental office.
And that includes everything and having everything in place, including all the finals. Yeah, I made was originally I'd say four months or four and a half months. And then the next day they would schedule patients as a, whoa, timeout. You know, we've got to get Mike in there. We got to get his Paula in there. We got to do training. We got to get, you know, organization and understanding your process. So we tell clients five months, but you add that up. That's eight months.
So I tell clients budget nine months. And that's for a good smooth process. I have a client right now that has been doing, they started, I looked at my records and I met with them in November of last year, and they ended up hiring a professional company to help them navigate the process and go out to bid and all that. And we ended up doing the project, but I just have to bite my tongue occasionally. I'm just saying really guys.
And we just, They started paying rent last month and we're about a month into construction. So they're going to be paying rent for three, four months before you're done. Yes. Yeah. And then on top of that, they got no tenant improvement dollars because they negotiated it all themselves. They didn't hire a broker, which they could have got for free. And then on top of that- We actually talked about that in the very last episode.
It's like, if you don't have someone representing you in real estate, like just stop what you're doing. Stop what you're doing and just get someone to help you. Where else can you hire the best for free? I mean, it's really, it's a no brainer. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, there's just- It's just so much. So this idea of speed, right? So you get free rent, you get dollars that the landlord contributes, and it's all about maximizing what you're getting from the bank and the landlord.
And Steve figures out your budget and gets the project from concept to delivery as fast as possible. Because if you are paying rent while the construction's happening, it's not the worst thing in the world, but that's not what we want. Like my clients in California, they're at six months for permitting. So they're paying rent. They're paying rent.
And the other thing on top of that, Mike, is to think about is, it's time is money but what's so nice is if you have that conversation with your general contractor and your broker and your equipment guy and you get everyone and the consultant you get all the same page and as they're negotiating the space they're saying hey this location understand it's gonna the contractor's going this building versus that one over there this one is going to cost you thirty dollars a square foot more
than this one here this one's going to cost you an extra month And there's buildings that are in high rises or a multi-level that will cost more. And there are certain subs that you have to use, or maybe this building over here has, it's a new building, but there's no demising wall, no insulation, no mechanical units, no concrete, and nobody's advised them. And, and they're not getting all that information.
And so the, if the contractors are able to advise the broker that's on your, your team, He's able to talk about time. He's able also look at what kind of conditions are they going to give you? Are they going to give you mechanical units, you know, or he's able to look out there and it's an existing building and find out that all three of the mechanical units that you're going to take over are only twenty five years old and they're on their last leg.
And if you know that ahead of time, the broker can negotiate that in and save you thousands, tens of thousands of dollars. And folks, what are you hearing this whole week? Steve, I don't want to hit that too hard. We've hit that. Every contractor has hit what you just said. On every episode, it's so important to have the contractor get in soon to help you negotiate and pick the right space. So important. And here it is again. Steve brought it up. Every great contractor is saying that.
So guys do that. Ladies do that. Steve, let's pivot real quick. When you're hiring a contractor, let's say I'm a dentist and I'm interviewing contractors, right? How do you know you're working with someone that knows dental or is qualified for this project? For all of the... Dental projects that are happening in all of the state of Arizona, and they're talking to random GCs, maybe a guy that's done two dental offices his entire career.
Like, what are some questions that we, my audience, can ask them to just make sure they're hiring the right person? Do you see where I'm going with this? I do. In fact, in my rewrite in the first book, I have an entire chapter on how to hire. Okay. So just go down to the link, buy the book or get the book and read it. What are the top three? The biggest thing I find is, you know, trust your gut. You know, women are better at intuition than men. They are so much better.
But on top of that, it's are they a yes man or yes woman? You know, are they just telling you what you want to hear? When you ask questions, is it just a one word answer or is it something that has some meat and potatoes behind it? You know, and as you're talking to them, you'll quickly find out, are they about your wallet or are they about making you better? And then have them look at the plans and just say, what do you think?
And if they haven't talked to you and asked you any questions, do they just jump in and make their assumptions? Or do they first stop and ask you some questions? Because really, that's really what should be happening is a seasoned guy is going to stop and he's going, well, tell me about yourself. Do you really want two sinks in your operatory. And do you really want this overhead light? And do you really need, you know, this, these rooms are good. Gosh, they're twelve by sixteen.
You know, what are you doing? You know, and, you know, just and then seeing big rooms and not asking, well, where's the med gas? And just things of, you know, just being able to first, they should be understanding who you are first before they're selling themselves. And if they're just Selling themselves, that's usually a big concern. Is there a professional lingo? Well, actually, I oftentimes see quotes with very little detail. How do you feel about that? Quotes with very little detail.
It scares me. We spell everything out. you know, and it, and it's so important in whatever you do, whether it's buying a home or car or whatever, you got to know what you're getting. And the big, big thing is, is I'm actually thrilled when someone says, well, what does NIC mean? Or what does PBO mean? Because you know, they're reading, reading, looking.
Yeah. I've had, I've had dentists, you know, literally I've been standing in the same room with them and they have a hundred and ten page lease and they, Oh, great. Thank you. And go to the last page, sign it and hand it back to the broker and away they go. And, and they didn't, you know, I've seen brokers, you know, that have done some unscrupulous things.
I had one client that found out five years ago that they were getting ready to sell their practice and found out that the place they were leasing from, we get ten percent of the deal just because it was in their lease. Oh, wow. I mean, there's just, By having those key professionals, it's so valuable to you. It is. It really is.
Okay. As we're getting to the end of your guys' ride to work or home, they say in the podcast world, if we don't end the program by like, twenty-five, thirty minutes, They're they're probably at home or they've made it to their destination. So fun fact, the average ride home is twenty five minutes. So we're at the top of the hour, I suppose. My last question for you, Stephen, it's been it's been great. I love having you on. I love your energy. I love your acumen. I love the way you approach.
clients and think through a holistically. That's all really good stuff. My last question is more of a leadership question. It's not related to to to construction. And I think I think, you know, as I interview people, most of us own our company. I own mine. You own yours. It's a grind owning, and I find that owner owning a business is no is very it's more similar than different, whether it's a dental business, a dry cleaner, a construction company. It's very similar.
The grit, the ability to lead teams, effective communication systems. There's a lot of stuff that's similar in the things that we all struggle with as owners? Do you have a leadership tip, impartment, something that you'd love to share to folks that are either in ownership or thinking about ownership? All these years you've owned your company, what does it take to be successful and be in ownership? Give of your best and don't expect anything in return.
I would also say the importance of hiring better than yourself and surrounding yourself with those people, whether it's in house or out of house, meaning that if you have to hire those professionals and hire, I've heard this for years, but hire slow, fire quick. That's been a painful one over the years where I've made a mistake of trying to keep someone on and try to make it work. And, oh, what am I going to do? without it.
And, you know, recently we lost someone that had been with us for twelve, thirteen years. And she said, you know, I just I just decided I want to change profession. And she had no plans. But I'm going, oh, my gosh. And I said, something will be there and something better. And I set my expectations higher. And while I got someone that was probably the the knowledge and the stuff that was brought in, by understanding that there was more needs than I really had and looking for opportunities.
Well said. I think that's really good, Steve, that all of us owners have had to go through. And I personally have gone through that with employees and admins and stuff. And what's amazing is it usually gets better every time. And, and, but we, especially if you get comfortable or, you know, like you've been in business with somebody, a partner or an employee for two, three years, you do, you can't imagine doing what you do without them. And then it gets, it's so much better afterward.
It's amazing how we get into that. We get into our comfort zone and, you know, that, that, that is, That's dangerous. And that's something that I continually challenge myself in is, you know, what other contractor would write and rewrite a book? And I'm going, but it's a passion of mine. And the issue is, is challenging myself to continually be better. And that's what you have to do to stay on top of your game and challenge your team members. That's a beautiful tip.
Don't be afraid of firing and hire slowly and work on systems. And change is good going through growth. I listened to a thing the other day, another consultant, actually, not in the dental world, basically say, hey, man, it's awesome when you go through challenges. It's awesome because you just... you just come out so much better. And, and if you don't go through any challenges, you don't go through anything better. If a client came to me and said, Mike, you guys suck. It would hurt.
I would be devastated. I would feel horrible. I, all the things, but man, we would make it better. And, and then everything else goes up. So that's a great leadership tip. Yeah. So leave you with one visual. When I finish up a lot of seminars, I show a slide. And it's a picture of these aspen trees across from our family cabin. It's been in my wife's family for like seven years. And picture this aspen. And the one thing I found over the years is these aspen grow tall.
But what's interesting is the wind makes them strong. What is wind? Wind is diversity. And they found when they did the biosphere that what happened when they didn't have wind? the tree limbs would break and they'd fall down and they wouldn't last. So wind, our adversity is actually what makes us strong and last longer and really persevere. And then the other thing about the Aspen trees is as they grow, they drop their branches.
It's really interesting because the leaves and stuff are at the top, but they drop what they don't need. They get rid of the stuff they don't need. They get rid of the clutter. They get rid of all the stuff.
And the other thing- other thing that's really cool about these trees is when you cut them down they come back multi-fold and it's they their their roots all of a sudden will produce multi-fold so when they're going through severe uh devastation they come back strong stronger and bigger and more wow that's super cool that's awesome uh I think we should change our our logo to an aspen tree I love that That's great, Steve. I love that.
That's a fantastic tip and I think a great place for us to exit the program. Steve, thanks so much for always investing into the community, this podcast, your book. seminars all the things you do thank you so much for doing what you do I love it too we're passionate I I I hope I'm just as passionate as you are at your age and I and um thank you for Well, just thanks for investing your time and giving it to the audience. I really appreciate it.
And that concludes Shark Week, uh, two thousand twenty five. Uh, Steve Anderson with Denko. We finished with, uh, one of the best folks again. I'll remind you, please, please, please. Review the program. I always get great feedback. You guys are calling me every week. Hundreds of people telling me every year how awesome the show is. Yet we only have ten reviews. Whatever you're listening to, Spotify, YouTube, Apple Tunes. I mean, there's a hundred of them. Just please hit the five-star.
Hell, I'll take a four-star. I don't care. I just want a review. Please give me some reviews. It helps the program rank higher. I know there's hundreds of you guys out there, so please just give us a review. So with all that being said, again, Steve, wealth of knowledge. All of his stuff is going to be in the link literally below in the description, his book. And thank you again, Steve, for your time today. I really appreciate you. Likewise. Thank you, Michael. All right, buddy.
Make it a great day. We'll talk soon, okay? Okay. Take care. Thank you. Take care. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening. Let us know how you like the show. Rate us on Apple and Spotify. Subscribe and follow for more.