Mike [00:00:00]:
On this week's episode, all the animals live together.
Anatoliy [00:00:02]:
It says, who, though? How do you know that they're harmonious? What kind of studies have you done to know that?
Mike [00:00:06]:
I've done a lot of studies. I watched a lot of NGo.
Anatoliy [00:00:09]:
I think that, I'm asking you, I'm.
Eldar [00:00:12]:
Challenging you, whether or not. How'd you figure that out to know? How do you know the complexities of a horse is my.
Anatoliy [00:00:17]:
I definitely can't.
Mike [00:00:19]:
You are the thief and the cop at the same time.
Eldar [00:00:22]:
Totally. I'm talking about very specific terms here. Don't. Don't play stupid.
Anatoliy [00:00:31]:
I've been beautiful.
Mike [00:00:34]:
But you are. I think he got a topic. He's the one who's got fucking. He's got a lot of things in the kitchen.
Eldar [00:00:48]:
Did you know when you made that call wrong? Knowingly made the wrong thing by calling her, by checking the location? I mean, last night, like, examine that action.
Mike [00:00:56]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [00:00:57]:
There's no chance.
Mike [00:00:59]:
No, it's all is justified.
Anatoliy [00:01:01]:
Yeah. Every action, I mean, like, in general, probably every action is justified, but I think there's still actions that are, like, justified in short term stuff, but not always examined in long term stuff either, you know?
Eldar [00:01:18]:
Could you have done wrong knowingly yesterday, last night?
Anatoliy [00:01:21]:
Yeah, I mean, probably not. If you're saying that you can't knowingly.
Eldar [00:01:24]:
Do wrong, you agree with that?
Anatoliy [00:01:26]:
I think that there's a justification to every action, but, like, I think the goal is not to make it, like, right or wrong on a personal level, but more of, like, a universal.
Eldar [00:01:37]:
What do you mean by that?
Anatoliy [00:01:39]:
Like, you may justify something to make that this action is right or okay, but that's, like, based on your, like, kind of, like, opinion on it, maybe. Right. Or, like, outlook versus, like, I don't know, one that one that's, like, aligned with truth, you know, I think would be different, but, like, potentially. Yeah, because, like, if you're the guy who kind of, like, signs the slips and makes the slips, it's like, yeah. You know, whether you, like, you give permission to certain actions.
Eldar [00:02:15]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:02:15]:
What is it all based on? It's all based on, like, your opinion, your suffering. You know? You're suffering. You can give a pass on certain things.
Eldar [00:02:28]:
Yeah. That's. You really can't. Like, I don't think it's, you know, then you don't really know, you know?
Mike [00:02:34]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:02:34]:
You don't really know that, but you're.
Mike [00:02:35]:
Under the impression that you do.
Eldar [00:02:37]:
That's, yeah, that's the interesting part.
Mike [00:02:39]:
That's the phenomenon.
Eldar [00:02:40]:
That's the interesting part. A lot of times we'll tell ourselves that just because we can't come across the truth, that's shiny, that's good. We line up with it.
Mike [00:02:51]:
Yeah. Like the way we deceive ourselves. Yeah, I think that's an interesting topic, too.
Anatoliy [00:02:57]:
I also think that, like, I'm not sure if we're aware of how many habitual or like, unconscious decisions and commitments and actions that we're doing on an everyday basis. I think we underestimate that. So, like, sometimes you may consciously know or have learned, like, the right thing to do, but, like, different, like, unconscious, like, habits and actions. Right. They. They could be, like, working in the background. Right.
Eldar [00:03:42]:
So then you're saying that we're really good at putting that stuff down for the moment. Well, I don't even getting about it for the moment.
Anatoliy [00:03:50]:
Yeah. I think in a lot of times, I don't think that we realize what we're doing and what consequences it has and, like, what, what it even means in our lives.
Eldar [00:03:59]:
Mmm.
Anatoliy [00:04:00]:
Yeah. Because, like, a lot of, like, think about, like, what's a habit, right. Like something that, like, to me, right. A habit is like something that, like, you're, like, routinely do doing that you've done many times that probably doesn't require lots of thought.
Eldar [00:04:22]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:04:23]:
And there's a, there are certain things that start as, like, you know, you might start at wanting to do them and then you start doing them, and then you do do them routinely, but it does require you to put a lot of thought into them. And then you could do it for long enough where you don't need to put thought into it.
Eldar [00:04:39]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:04:40]:
Right. Like, like, I don't know. Let's just say, like a sales call, right? I mean, when you're starting out, you need a script. Right. You need to have in front of you what questions to ask. Right. Like, first ask this question. Then make sure that you get that.
Anatoliy [00:04:57]:
Then make sure that you get the quantity, the volume.
Eldar [00:04:59]:
Right.
Anatoliy [00:05:00]:
Then over time, you could still have this in front of you, but then you do it faster and then you transition to the next step. You don't need that at all. But you still have to be very aware of what's going on, and then you can continue going where. It's like you've had this conversation so many times that it's just, you already know what to listen to, you already know what to say. You already know what to respond to. There's no, like, you know, somebody gives you, like, a challenge, like you already have. Like, you, like the file, you know, page six, like 9.2. Like, right there.
Anatoliy [00:05:33]:
Response right there. You don't have to, like, put someone on hold or, like, think about it or something. Right?
Eldar [00:05:38]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:05:39]:
Like that transitions.
Eldar [00:05:41]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [00:05:42]:
So it almost becomes, to a certain level, partially, like, unconscious. Almost. Right.
Eldar [00:05:47]:
Subconscious.
Anatoliy [00:05:48]:
Sub subconscious.
Eldar [00:05:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. Um, so you're just saying we're just underestimate how many bad habits potentially we are carrying with us based on the wrong premises that we've concluded on.
Anatoliy [00:06:03]:
Say that again.
Eldar [00:06:04]:
Like, you. You saying that we underestimate how many bad habits we actually do have that at one point or another. You know, we had a kind of a deliberation process, but then it instilled in us, like, this is the way the world is, and this is the way I want to be.
Anatoliy [00:06:18]:
Yeah. I think there's. There. There's, like, almost, like, two types of bad habits.
Eldar [00:06:22]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [00:06:23]:
Right. There's bad habits. I like. You kind of know it's bad. Like, you kind of have these, like, feelings towards it, and you are, like, maybe in the awareness phase, like. Like, stage right. And you kind of know that they're bad.
Eldar [00:06:36]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:06:37]:
But you feel like the consequences are not that big.
Eldar [00:06:39]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [00:06:40]:
So you kind of continue to do them.
Eldar [00:06:42]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:06:43]:
Right.
Eldar [00:06:43]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:06:45]:
And then you maybe kind of start working in, like, not doing them and stuff like that. Stuff like that. Right. And then there's. There's another level of things that are, like, bad habits, and you are not aware that they're bad. You don't know. You're not aware as to, like, as to what they're doing to. To you or just in general action.
Eldar [00:07:07]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:07:08]:
Right. You might be under one impression, but there's something else that's happening that you are not aware of that could be bad.
Eldar [00:07:15]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:07:15]:
But you're not able to understand, like, the magnitude of your habits or, like, your actions.
Eldar [00:07:21]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [00:07:22]:
And that's, like, the second type I think of, like, bad habit.
Eldar [00:07:27]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [00:07:28]:
You know?
Mike [00:07:34]:
But if you don't know about them.
Anatoliy [00:07:37]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:07:38]:
Like, you guess. And if you don't know about them, then I guess that gives you the past. But the ones you do know about.
Eldar [00:07:45]:
I'm not sure if you should be getting a pass, because, you know, one thing is you acting out your bad habits on your own, and you kind of okay with them. But another thing, acting to act out those bad habits in the world on people, you probably sooner or later, won't get a pass.
Mike [00:08:02]:
Yeah. Sooner or later. Yeah.
Eldar [00:08:04]:
Sooner or later, your anger, your frustration that you're displaying is going to be landing on people, we're not gonna be happy with that type of action, that's for sure.
Mike [00:08:12]:
Eventually those things will come out.
Eldar [00:08:13]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:08:14]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:08:14]:
But the one, you don't really get a pass.
Mike [00:08:16]:
I think temporary, maybe.
Eldar [00:08:18]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:08:19]:
Yeah. But it's also like, even if some, if you're doing something and you don't know that there's something bad that it's doing that's in the background, a lot of times those, like, results still come out. Like, you'll still get the back, the bad end of the stick.
Mike [00:08:34]:
You just want to be able to understand.
Anatoliy [00:08:35]:
You just don't understand where or why it's coming from.
Mike [00:08:38]:
But then there are the bad habits you are aware of. Right.
Anatoliy [00:08:41]:
You're aware of them, but you kind of feel you're under the impression that they have very minor, like, repercussions.
Mike [00:08:49]:
Why is that?
Anatoliy [00:08:51]:
Yeah, that's a very good question. You know, like, you are.
Mike [00:08:55]:
Because I think before you can, I mean, I'm not sure which one can you solve the ones you don't know about before you solve the ones that you do know about.
Eldar [00:09:03]:
Yeah, I don't know how that's possible.
Mike [00:09:04]:
Yeah. I think it's like a process of lifting up every step, leave no stones unturned, you know?
Anatoliy [00:09:09]:
But, but also thing, like, it's your interpretation. It's like your understanding of what's going on there. You may think that, like, okay, you're aware this is kind of bad. Well, like, you're making a judgment call and you're making a assessment of, like, what's happening here. Like, that. That I think is, like, where the issue comes from. If you're bad at making assessments of what bad habits are actually doing, then, like, it's over for you if you're bad at making those judgments.
Mike [00:09:44]:
Yeah, but even if you're good at making it, what does it mean to, like, be mad? Be good at making a judgment?
Anatoliy [00:09:50]:
You will, like, you identify something that is not serving you and you're more understanding of the consequences of it. And then you are much better at putting actions into play that will, like, remedy, like, the situation.
Mike [00:10:11]:
What about the consequence of overeating? Right. I don't know if that's considered a bad habit or a good example, but you overeat.
Anatoliy [00:10:18]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:10:18]:
Right. Most meals.
Anatoliy [00:10:19]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:10:20]:
Right. Do you not know the country about somebody? No, I'm talking about general people. Yeah. You overeat. You overeat most meals. Do you not know the consequences of overeating? Because I think if you ask that person, I'd be like, yeah, I understand, but something happens in the moment that you don't.
Anatoliy [00:10:39]:
Yes and no. Like, yeah, it depends on what. What. What consequences are you aware and not aware of? I think that you're aware of some of them, but you're also potentially, like, misjudging what's going on. Right.
Mike [00:10:52]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:10:53]:
Like, for example, what if, like, you had to commit to your next meal while you, like, within minutes of you eating the first one, for example, you have already, like, what?
Mike [00:11:05]:
What do you mean, commit?
Anatoliy [00:11:06]:
Like.
Mike [00:11:06]:
Like, you have to plan it already.
Anatoliy [00:11:08]:
No, like, no, like, in that. Imagine, like, you just ate breakfast, for example. You're full. Like, you are very good. Right. And now you have to, like, on a, like, a tablet, pick out your.
Eldar [00:11:20]:
Lunch while being full.
Anatoliy [00:11:23]:
While being full.
Mike [00:11:24]:
And you have to take that lunch.
Anatoliy [00:11:26]:
Right. And that's a lunch that you'll have when. When lunchtime happens.
Mike [00:11:30]:
Okay.
Anatoliy [00:11:30]:
Right. I think that, like, it might be a different order than. You didn't do that. For example, let's fast forward to lunch. And you're having a late lunch, so.
Mike [00:11:40]:
You'Re saying it's starving.
Anatoliy [00:11:41]:
Right. I think lots of times we have poor understanding of time. We have poor understanding of, like, what our body actually needs, and we have poor understanding of what different kinds of foods, for example, do or don't do.
Mike [00:11:58]:
But what are those things rooted in, those poor understandings?
Anatoliy [00:12:01]:
What are they rooted in?
Mike [00:12:02]:
Like, if you have poor planning, then you don't have enough money for the week, right? Yeah. Are you gonna go rob.
Eldar [00:12:08]:
Rob people?
Mike [00:12:09]:
Well, you could just say, oh, well, I didn't pour probably plan. So in this case, it's okay to rob. Right?
Anatoliy [00:12:16]:
What do you mean?
Mike [00:12:17]:
I'm saying, like, how far does that extend, the poor planning, that excuse?
Anatoliy [00:12:22]:
Well, it extends on however much you want it to extend.
Mike [00:12:24]:
So then can you say, well, I'm gonna go Rob. Rob this person or rob a bank because I poured planly port?
Anatoliy [00:12:31]:
You're gonna rob the bank because you need to put money on the table.
Mike [00:12:34]:
You don't have any.
Anatoliy [00:12:36]:
You don't have any food, might be willing to kill.
Mike [00:12:38]:
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So you think it's just. I think it's poor planning or.
Anatoliy [00:12:44]:
Well, it's. It's. It's. It's a lot of things. It's poor planning. It's not understanding.
Mike [00:12:49]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:12:50]:
Right.
Mike [00:12:51]:
But if you understand it, can you.
Anatoliy [00:12:52]:
Poorly plan if you understand it? Can you poorly plan if you understand the problem?
Mike [00:12:59]:
Right?
Eldar [00:12:59]:
Yeah, but even his example where he understands, like, look, okay, I'm gonna eat and I'm gonna be full, and I'm gonna make my choices based on being full. Yeah, I'm really not sure whether or not that's actually a good plan.
Mike [00:13:11]:
I don't know either.
Eldar [00:13:12]:
You know what I'm saying?
Mike [00:13:13]:
I'm trying to get to the reason of it.
Eldar [00:13:15]:
Well, that answers your question. Like, even if you know that there's an issue, you under the impression that this might be a good idea, but that might not be the right remedy at all? Yeah, it sounds like a good idea. Right?
Mike [00:13:29]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:13:30]:
Hey, you know, pre plan your meal when you're full, don't go to the grocery store when you're hungry. When you're hungry and stuff like that. You know what I mean?
Mike [00:13:38]:
Sounds like a good plan, but.
Eldar [00:13:39]:
Yeah, it sounds like a good plan, but is it. Is it actually what you need?
Mike [00:13:43]:
Is it's it putting a band aid instead of actually tackling the issue?
Eldar [00:13:48]:
Well, see, I'm not sure if it's a band aid either, you know?
Anatoliy [00:13:51]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:13:52]:
I just.
Anatoliy [00:13:53]:
Something different.
Eldar [00:13:54]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure if it's a band.
Anatoliy [00:13:57]:
Yeah. I was more trying to tackle, like, the notion of, like, oh, overeating what Mike was talking about. Right. Not like different potential issues, you know?
Eldar [00:14:08]:
Yeah, that's the thing. But we're very complex, you know what I mean?
Anatoliy [00:14:11]:
Yeah. Which is also part of it, I think, is that I don't think we understand how complex we are in all the different aspects of our lives, and we constantly underestimate those things.
Eldar [00:14:22]:
Yeah. I mean, in this case, right. He's like, hey, I can combat overeating by just planning ahead of the game. Sure. But how are you gonna take care of the craving part?
Mike [00:14:34]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [00:14:35]:
Right. Like, if you're craving pizza.
Mike [00:14:37]:
Pizza and you plan. You plan for.
Eldar [00:14:39]:
You plan for. You plan for a salad.
Mike [00:14:41]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:14:41]:
What.
Mike [00:14:42]:
What about if you're all your. Or your mates are going out to lunch to fucking Pizza hut and you wanna solid on the agenda, you know.
Eldar [00:14:49]:
You didn't plan for socializing and you didn't plan for the craving.
Mike [00:14:51]:
Now it's a double, double whammy. Yeah.
Eldar [00:14:54]:
So, you know, that's what I'm saying. When it comes to food, at least I think that it's a complex.
Mike [00:15:00]:
It is. Yeah. Yeah. But it's. It's rooted. It's still, I guess, in some kind of ethics. Maybe not the food stuff, but, like, belief system, right?
Eldar [00:15:11]:
Yes.
Mike [00:15:12]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:15:12]:
Which. Which is very complex. I think there's a lot that goes in. Into that. You know what I mean? A lot of people eat the way they do and their habits of eating are rooted in a lot of different belief systems. Yeah, yeah.
Anatoliy [00:15:25]:
A lot of times a lot of these actions are all very like automated and very like there's like familiarity that you have with certain things.
Mike [00:15:36]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:15:37]:
Right.
Mike [00:15:37]:
Of course.
Anatoliy [00:15:38]:
Like when you're hungry, eat a lot. That could be like your exact familiarity. Yeah, like familiarity. Right, right. With that. And like, because you're familiar with it, even if the situation comes out shitty, you're still familiar with it.
Mike [00:15:56]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:15:59]:
Which like to your unconscious self is not as bad as being unfamiliar with something potentially even though that thing might be better.
Eldar [00:16:10]:
So what are we talking about? That change is actually very hard. Any sustainable change is very hard for humans.
Mike [00:16:23]:
Yeah, I think that's, yeah, I think change is hard for sure.
Eldar [00:16:29]:
Sustainable, good change is hard.
Mike [00:16:31]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:16:32]:
Right. Because of the fact that we're so complex and there's so many variables that are, you know, play here. This doesn't mean that you shouldn't strive towards bettering yourself, you know, or you shouldn't use that as an excuse to say, you know what, I'm just gonna overeat this time because, you know, I'm very complicated person. You know what I mean? And there's more stuff that I need to uncover before I'm okay with eating less.
Mike [00:16:59]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:16:59]:
You know what I mean? You could definitely still strive and do kind of process of elimination and try things out and you know, don't give yourself that excuse to like, oh, okay. You know, this is too complicated. Therefore I won't do it.
Mike [00:17:14]:
You know, I guess, um, we underestimate the time of that. Our habits have been like installed in us till we start examining them, you know?
Eldar [00:17:28]:
Well, time. Yeah, sure, time, it's time, but it's more. So, um, the attachment that. Why do we have such a strong attachment towards particular things?
Mike [00:17:39]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:17:40]:
Right. Belief systems.
Mike [00:17:41]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:17:43]:
I think that's what's. Because the stronger the attachment, it'll stand the test of time.
Mike [00:17:49]:
Oh yeah. The thing is time, it only adds to the false belief or the correct belief.
Eldar [00:17:55]:
What do you mean?
Mike [00:17:56]:
Like if you've been doing something wrong. Right. And it's rooted in the attachment.
Eldar [00:18:02]:
Mm hmm.
Mike [00:18:02]:
You. More time that passes, the stronger it gets.
Eldar [00:18:05]:
I'm not sure.
Mike [00:18:06]:
No. You're not sure?
Eldar [00:18:07]:
I'm not sure. I think it's strong inherently, inherently.
Mike [00:18:10]:
So time doesn't make it even more stronger?
Eldar [00:18:12]:
No, I'm not sure if it does.
Mike [00:18:15]:
Okay. I thought time is like a. Yeah. Makes it more solidified.
Eldar [00:18:20]:
Yeah. I'm not sure because, um, people quit smoking quick cold turkey.
Mike [00:18:27]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:18:28]:
That's what came to mind. Right.
Mike [00:18:31]:
They do.
Eldar [00:18:32]:
They do. Why? Some kind of a click happens, right?
Mike [00:18:36]:
Yeah, some kind of click, yeah.
Eldar [00:18:39]:
If everything was just like, oh, it's a time thing, and it becomes stronger and stronger, you would then have to say, like, okay, the struggle is gonna be very real on the time, time end. You can't just have a click and a cold turkey switch now.
Mike [00:18:52]:
You would have what you have to then see how many people quit cold turkey, then go back, see if that's sustainable change.
Eldar [00:19:01]:
Well, you can, like, I mean, but, you know. Yeah. Like in anything that you do, I think the question of sustainable change is a very difficult one to answer. You know what I'm saying?
Mike [00:19:13]:
Is it because we're not trying, we're not changing it from the, we're trying to change it from the wrong place or with the wrong, I don't know, tools?
Eldar [00:19:25]:
I'm not sure, bro. I think, I just really think that the, the belief system around it and attachments around it is so strong and it's been, you know, we've bought it into it.
Mike [00:19:36]:
Well, yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was. We're trying to, like, change something, but not from the core, ground up kind of thing. We're trying to like, you know, change it from like a, we're not giving it a good crack, you know?
Eldar [00:19:51]:
Why do you feel that way?
Mike [00:19:54]:
A lot of times when people make plans or promises to themselves, they're all surface level. They're all very surface level.
Eldar [00:20:00]:
Yep.
Mike [00:20:00]:
It's starting tomorrow.
Eldar [00:20:02]:
Yeah, I'm gonna do, I'm eating apples all day.
Mike [00:20:04]:
Yeah, that's not sustainable. Like, yeah, be like, yo, you know what? I don't want to lose 100 pounds in a year. I want to lose 100 pounds in ten years.
Eldar [00:20:12]:
Okay, so how about this then? How about this? Ah. Starting tomorrow, I want to lose weight. Let's just say the premises. I want to lose weight.
Mike [00:20:19]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:20:20]:
Starting tomorrow, I'm gonna do one. No, I'm gonna enroll into logic class.
Mike [00:20:29]:
Logic.
Eldar [00:20:30]:
And not be stupid anymore. How's that? How does that sound to you? Sounds the reason why I'm overweight is because I'm stupid.
Mike [00:20:41]:
No, I'm not sure people agree with you.
Eldar [00:20:44]:
No, I know, but I'm asking whether that, what do you think about that?
Mike [00:20:46]:
Yeah. I think that if you want to change anything about yourself, it's definitely important.
Eldar [00:20:52]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:20:52]:
To say that you don't know. Yeah. Humble yourself.
Eldar [00:20:56]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:20:57]:
Because when you're coming up with solutions, you're coming up solutions from a, you know, a criminal mind or a different mind. You know, you may be coming up with a solution that is not executable by a person that you are that doesn't actually fit who you are. You know, you might be saying, let's say tomorrow I'm gonna run 5 miles a day.
Eldar [00:21:15]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:21:16]:
Where you can't even walk ten steps.
Eldar [00:21:17]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:21:18]:
You're setting unrealistic shit for yourself.
Eldar [00:21:20]:
Stupid.
Mike [00:21:20]:
You're stupid. Yeah, but the thing is, those things provide a tremendous amount of excitement because then you already imagine yourself as tomorrow. You're a runner. That gives you a boost, that helps you get your ass off the couch for five steps. But, yeah, the thing, I guess, you can't be. You can be the patient and the doctor at the same time. You know, you're trying to prescribe yourself something that you're not. Qualified doctors go to school for a reason, to understand the body, right?
Eldar [00:21:55]:
Mm hmm.
Mike [00:21:55]:
You know, I guess you're. You're out of the blue. You're trying to become a doctor where all your. Maybe if. I'm not sure if your first attempt. But a lot of times people have multiple attempts at trying to change things, especially this weight loss stuff.
Eldar [00:22:07]:
Right.
Anatoliy [00:22:08]:
So do you think that people are not, like, built together in ways to, like, solve things on their own?
Mike [00:22:17]:
I think they are, but I think it. It takes time to develop that kind of talent, you know? Yeah, but I also think I mentioned it.
Eldar [00:22:25]:
If they're ignorant, how, like, where are you gonna spin that from? The solving of the problems.
Anatoliy [00:22:32]:
I mean, you're just gonna be wrong.
Eldar [00:22:34]:
How many times?
Mike [00:22:36]:
Most people. Yeah, we'll just not crack at it because they don't understand the problem they're solving.
Anatoliy [00:22:42]:
But our ignorant people supposed to take advice from people who are not ignorant?
Eldar [00:22:48]:
I'm not sure if they're supposed to. I mean, they probably would be lucky to.
Anatoliy [00:22:53]:
Well, yeah. In doctor karma, what are ignorant people.
Mike [00:23:01]:
Supposed to take advice from? Non ignorant. Yeah, they'd be lucky to be lucky to. They'd be lucky, but I don't think so.
Eldar [00:23:11]:
Supposed to know. I'm not sure.
Mike [00:23:12]:
They're definitely not supposed to. You cannot do something like that without first humbling yourself and saying that you're ignorant.
Eldar [00:23:21]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:23:21]:
And then you can become a student, you know?
Eldar [00:23:23]:
Yeah, because that's what it is. Right. Like, if we're constantly presenting a problem, say we have a problem, and we ended up not solving the problem, we attempt it, and we go back to square one every single time.
Mike [00:23:38]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:23:39]:
Who actually goes out there and just says, you know what? I'm actually ignorant.
Mike [00:23:43]:
No, I don't think a lot of.
Eldar [00:23:44]:
People, a lot of people will say, you know what? I'm not motivated. Right.
Mike [00:23:49]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:23:49]:
But also you're gonna say, I'm not motivated to wash the dishes. I'm not motivated to get up and go to the gym.
Mike [00:23:54]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:23:54]:
You're gonna say, oh, I'm lazy, I'm tired. They're not gonna say, you know what? I'm stupid. I'm ignorant.
Mike [00:24:02]:
Well, yeah, I'm stupid. Meaning probably you. You're ignorant. Yeah. You probably, you don't understand what the actual scope of service is. You.
Eldar [00:24:09]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike [00:24:11]:
Trying to solve the. Being overweight by going to the gym.
Eldar [00:24:14]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:24:15]:
When you need to solve the weight problem by actually not going to the gym, by actually educating yourself, using your head.
Eldar [00:24:20]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:24:21]:
To see why.
Eldar [00:24:22]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:24:23]:
A lot of the times we may be labeled cause and effect.
Eldar [00:24:29]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:24:29]:
We think the effect is the cause.
Eldar [00:24:31]:
Yes.
Mike [00:24:31]:
Instead of the cause being the cause, I think.
Eldar [00:24:34]:
Yeah. I mean, but how does it, like, okay, fine. We maybe put weight on the fact that. Okay, cool. We understand what ignorant means. Right? Like, if you don't know something, you're ignorant and you need to do something about it, get smarter to solve it. But to a person who is ignorant.
Mike [00:24:48]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [00:24:51]:
How does that, like, how does that phrase resonate with them? How does that will ever resonate with somebody like that? Are you doing the same thing over and over? They constantly come. I don't know. It's not working out for me. You know, maybe, maybe these are the cards that I'm dealt.
Mike [00:25:10]:
Yeah, it's a good question.
Eldar [00:25:11]:
You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying?
Mike [00:25:21]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:25:22]:
How do you install that into somebody? How do you like, okay, cool. You know, I mean, just to bring an example, a lot of times, like, you know, last, last week we. Okay, two weeks ago we had hase, we came and said, hey, I have this problem. This is my problem. After unpacking it, we realized that's not the problem at all. It's a nice way of saying, hey, you actually don't know what you're talking about.
Mike [00:25:51]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:25:51]:
Right. If you don't know what you're talking about, that shows that you're ignorance.
Mike [00:25:58]:
How do you get people to admit to themselves that ignorant? Is that what you're asking?
Eldar [00:26:04]:
I'm just asking for if there is nobody who can guide them through the process of elimination and questioning and deductive reasoning, how does that person ever come, come to that, the correct conclusion without getting kind of lucky, maybe yeah. Or running out or exhausting their doctor K to the point where it's like, okay, now I need a. I mean.
Anatoliy [00:26:24]:
They have to be like, persistent people. Like, people who like. Yeah. Like, exhaust their own understandings and still have, like, the resilience to continue. Because a lot of this, to me, is just like, it's pure resilience. Like, how long can you go?
Mike [00:26:44]:
But would you call sometimes resilience also a stupid thing or is it. I don't know if it's still resilience.
Anatoliy [00:26:51]:
I'm saying, like, resilience in the sense of that. Like, if you're not resilient, you could either break very early in the process, or you could, I guess, get to a point where you make a conclusion, you take a firm stance on something, and then you kind of say that if it's a stance of this is just how it's supposed to be.
Eldar [00:27:21]:
Well, yeah. You don't know what you're gonna extract from that resilience. You're right.
Anatoliy [00:27:24]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:27:24]:
It could be. Yeah. It could be one of those things, like you said. Is it kinda the cars that I'm built?
Anatoliy [00:27:28]:
Yeah. Yeah. It just depends on how resilient you are. I think maybe if you're ignorant on something, like the goals or a good potential outcome would be to, like, try different things and to exhaust your understandings and have the resilience to continue and not the resilience either give up.
Mike [00:27:47]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:27:48]:
Or to make a conclusion.
Mike [00:27:50]:
Yeah. So you're making that conclusion, making mistakes.
Anatoliy [00:27:53]:
What?
Mike [00:27:53]:
Keep making mistakes in a way, or keep trying to figure it out, but.
Anatoliy [00:27:57]:
While having, like, the ability to. To not give up.
Eldar [00:28:02]:
Well, how does the give up process look?
Anatoliy [00:28:05]:
Well, the give up process works in those two ways. Like, either. Like, I don't know. I mean, it could be like you go for a long nap, you know, big surface, like thing. Right. Like. And then. Or the other one is more of, like, acceptance.
Eldar [00:28:26]:
Acceptance of the inability to do anything about the situation. Hopelessness.
Anatoliy [00:28:30]:
Hopelessness. Well, yeah, it starts as that, but I think it transitions into a different it. Like, I think that through acceptance of an ignorant situation, I think that it would be too painful to have to continuously, consciously accept ignorant situations or things about your life. I think that there's a transition period that happens where that ignorance turns it through. Acceptance turns into. I don't know what the right phrase is, but it turns into, like, you almost figure out a way to make things not as bad anymore.
Eldar [00:29:18]:
Mmm hmm.
Anatoliy [00:29:19]:
Even though they're just as bad as before.
Eldar [00:29:21]:
Mmm.
Anatoliy [00:29:23]:
Because you wouldn't be able to take it if it was that same way as before. Right. So there has to be some kind of, like, justification process that goes through that can help you almost cope with, like, the shitty situation. Right.
Eldar [00:29:40]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:29:41]:
So that you find. Yeah. So you could find ways to justify it.
Eldar [00:29:45]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [00:29:45]:
And then it. And then, like, it won't be as bad, but still be either, you know?
Eldar [00:29:53]:
Yeah. That's the given up process.
Anatoliy [00:29:57]:
Yeah. Cuz, like, those two things. One of those two things has to.
Eldar [00:30:01]:
Happen sooner or later. I think they do. Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:30:04]:
Yeah. Or you have the resiliency to continue.
Eldar [00:30:09]:
So what do you think?
Mike [00:30:11]:
I was thinking about a lot of times, you know, like the. This, like, I think. I think it's buddhist, but it's right thought, right speech, right actions. Right.
Eldar [00:30:24]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:30:24]:
Buddhist.
Eldar [00:30:24]:
That is buddhist.
Mike [00:30:26]:
I was thinking a lot of the times. Right. Our thoughts about ourselves lead us to say things that are untrue and. But our actions, you know, not to follow.
Eldar [00:30:39]:
What are they. Show who we actually are.
Mike [00:30:42]:
We are. So I thought about something. Is that our perceptions of ourselves and the way we think about ourselves, you know, and the way we speak those things, then.
Eldar [00:30:56]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:30:57]:
It causes this very stupid behavior.
Eldar [00:31:00]:
No, what you're saying is it causes sickness.
Mike [00:31:03]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Eldar [00:31:06]:
It becomes a sickness.
Mike [00:31:08]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:31:09]:
Long enough of you keep saying that you're thinking of one thing but doing another. Complaining about the world.
Mike [00:31:15]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:31:15]:
Saying, hey, it's their fault. It's their fault. You know what I mean? Think about that. Right. You have a problem at work.
Mike [00:31:20]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:31:21]:
What a coworker. You know, you keep running into it. You keep saying, this is. This is the problem. This is the problem. You keep complaining about it. You know, you telling, like, your husband or your wife, this is what's going on. This is what's going on.
Eldar [00:31:32]:
You know, if properly examined, you clearly find out, number one, you can solve it. Number two, you probably are wrong about it. You know what I mean? But if you don't, if you continue to promote it, if that person can't solve it, what's gonna happen is gonna form into a stress.
Mike [00:31:48]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:31:48]:
A stressor for a long period of time, sooner or later will manifest into. Yes.
Mike [00:31:53]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Eldar [00:31:55]:
You know what I'm saying? All because you were under the wrong impression of who you are, of who you are and what's actually.
Mike [00:32:02]:
It's going on, what you actually believe.
Eldar [00:32:04]:
In and how you see yourself within that situation.
Mike [00:32:07]:
And that made me think about how wrong we actually are about ourselves or how wrong we can be about ourselves and what that actually causes and I think it might be linked to this ignorance thing, but also might be linked to the disconnect between the action and the non action.
Eldar [00:32:25]:
Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, the action.
Mike [00:32:28]:
I think it's the verbal action of saying something and then not doing it.
Eldar [00:32:31]:
Yeah. I think that's why Buddhist is very keen on making sure that you have to be very careful what you say.
Mike [00:32:37]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:32:37]:
And how you say it.
Mike [00:32:38]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Eldar [00:32:40]:
You know?
Anatoliy [00:32:41]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:32:42]:
And I guess that also lines up with the fact that we think we can be proper diagnoses of our own problems when we're clearly not qualified.
Eldar [00:32:51]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:32:51]:
Because at some point. At some point, we bought into this thing that we know something about ourselves better than anybody else. You know, better than, you know, like, we actually know, but clearly. Right. The lives that people leading.
Eldar [00:33:05]:
Mm hmm.
Mike [00:33:05]:
A lot of times, it's not the case.
Eldar [00:33:08]:
Not at all.
Mike [00:33:08]:
We set unrealistic goals for ourselves. We're trying to do unrealistic things.
Eldar [00:33:12]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:33:12]:
Things that we actually don't even care about. A lot of times trying to please somebody else, potentially.
Eldar [00:33:17]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:33:17]:
Not only that, but also live an image out that, or play an image out that we're not even capable of doing.
Anatoliy [00:33:24]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:33:25]:
And that all that causes this, like, condition, I guess, of being ignorant and. And it's very confusing if you think about what happens inside your head, you saying, like, yo, that's it. Today we're going to the gym. I thought about this. I said it to you. Now you heard from me, like, okay, we're going to the gym. That means you. I made a commitment.
Mike [00:33:50]:
There's my word. And then I don't go to the gym. What is that? How does that, like, affect me consciously, subconsciously, as a human. Right. Doing that. And then, you know, that's a. You know, that's just one example, but I think multiple things. It's all across the board.
Eldar [00:34:07]:
Yeah, yeah. Only. Not only what it does to you as a human, what does it do also to then the relationship that you have with the other person who you made the commitment.
Mike [00:34:14]:
Yeah, yeah.
Eldar [00:34:15]:
You.
Mike [00:34:15]:
You're gonna.
Eldar [00:34:16]:
That's the thing that we talked about last night, you remember? About two people going on this, on a journey, have a plan to do something, and one person just wears off and.
Mike [00:34:25]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:34:26]:
Somewhere else completely.
Mike [00:34:28]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Eldar [00:34:30]:
You know, I would be found.
Mike [00:34:32]:
I think, also, I was talking totally a while. A few weeks ago. We're talking about solving problems, and I said, I think I said this to you before, too, but I think something, like I said, I'm not sure if this is true, but I thought that it's important when you're trying to solve this, it's important to have another person with you that can help to check you, you know?
Eldar [00:34:53]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:34:55]:
It's. I think it might be inherently, you know, I thought it might be built like that, where certain things you cannot solve on your own. Or maybe you need another person because you supposed to do it together.
Eldar [00:35:06]:
Yeah. That's interesting.
Anatoliy [00:35:08]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:35:08]:
I don't know. Like, because you're. You are the thief and the cop at the same time.
Eldar [00:35:17]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike [00:35:19]:
And you're just, like, hiding each other behind each other's backs.
Eldar [00:35:23]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:35:24]:
You don't. We don't know.
Eldar [00:35:25]:
Right. Yes.
Anatoliy [00:35:26]:
Like, it just comes down to the question. Right. Can, like, non enlightened beings govern themselves?
Eldar [00:35:31]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:35:32]:
Should they govern themselves?
Mike [00:35:34]:
Is there. I wonder, like, you know, if there's an example in nature where something like this shows itself, you know, where it is. It is a two man job. You know? I guess nature is different maybe because there's no. Right. They say that we're humans are the only have consciousness.
Eldar [00:35:51]:
Right? Mmhmm. Yeah.
Mike [00:35:52]:
But I wonder is in nature, is there an example? Because I. You know, I feel like nature is, like, the way it works is interesting. A lot of things are very. I don't know, they're harmonious, but they're also. They work well, I guess they work.
Anatoliy [00:36:07]:
Right.
Mike [00:36:08]:
They work. They work and they work properly, as you say, as it looks like it's supposed to, you know.
Eldar [00:36:13]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:36:13]:
You know?
Eldar [00:36:14]:
Well, yeah. I mean, you could say that. You could make that conclusion because animals don't commit suicide. Humans do. Right. So if they don't commit suicide, you would have to say that, you know, whatever they're doing there is working for them. Right.
Mike [00:36:30]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:36:30]:
Like, this is their natural order.
Mike [00:36:32]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [00:36:33]:
But humans, you know, some thrive and some don't end up not thriving.
Mike [00:36:37]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:36:38]:
Right. And they self destruct whichever way that they do, you know? So, yeah. We're. We're still trying to figure it out.
Mike [00:36:47]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [00:36:48]:
You know?
Mike [00:36:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. We are animals. Like, then you're not gonna see a horse acting like a.
Eldar [00:36:55]:
Like a monkey, like a dog. Like a dog.
Mike [00:36:58]:
Sometimes. Sometimes.
Eldar [00:36:59]:
You were domesticated by humans.
Mike [00:37:01]:
Yeah, if they were. But without any forces being put upon them and them in their nature, they're going about their business, they're doing their thing. And I think.
Anatoliy [00:37:10]:
But I also think that, like, humans.
Mike [00:37:11]:
Are much more complex, inherently complex, or.
Anatoliy [00:37:15]:
We made ourselves complex, I think inherently complex because. Because we have much more capability or.
Mike [00:37:24]:
We have much less answers.
Anatoliy [00:37:26]:
Well, I mean, much less answers and more capability can exist together.
Mike [00:37:29]:
But if you had the answers to the questions right from a young age, right, if you knew your purpose or what you were supposed to do instead of everybody's out here trying to figure out what their purpose is, that wouldn't.
Anatoliy [00:37:40]:
Make that, like, we have inherently more potential, more ability than, like, a horse could we do.
Mike [00:37:48]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:37:49]:
Why do you, I don't sell. How do you know that? Like, what potential are you talking about? Like potential to do what? Like what's the, what's the, what's the highest regard that you have for a horse and highest regard that you have for a human?
Anatoliy [00:38:02]:
What, what does that mean?
Eldar [00:38:04]:
Like, what's, what's the highest expectation or regard that you have for the horse and for the human? Like, what's the, like, the biggest thing? Well, I guess, like, how do you judge it? How are you judging it right now?
Anatoliy [00:38:13]:
Well, I guess, like maybe the goal for everybody still, enlightenment, let's just say. Right?
Eldar [00:38:18]:
Like, yeah, yeah, sure.
Anatoliy [00:38:19]:
For any animal or, or, uh, or whatever. But I'm talking about as far as, like, um.
Mike [00:38:26]:
Horses can't drive cars, I guess, like brainpower.
Anatoliy [00:38:29]:
My idea behind that is like, yeah.
Eldar [00:38:31]:
I don't know what you're talking about.
Anatoliy [00:38:33]:
Well, like, what do you mean?
Eldar [00:38:34]:
Well, I just don't know, like, I don't know how, what measures you're using. Like what scale? Like what are you talking about? Brain power. Like horses brain power. Like how do you know the horse doesn't have, like, the brain power? Like how much of it does it have to be a horse? Like, to be a sustainable, good horse?
Anatoliy [00:38:54]:
Well, no, I'm not comparing, like, the highest horse compared to the highest human.
Eldar [00:38:59]:
So what are you comparing?
Anatoliy [00:39:00]:
Like, I'm saying that humans can do more than horses can. Right.
Eldar [00:39:04]:
Within the realms of humans over the general. What do you mean in general?
Anatoliy [00:39:10]:
In general, not within their own realms.
Mike [00:39:13]:
Well, how would you know what a horse can do? Yeah, can do? Oh, yeah. How do you know what the highest level of capacity horse can, can have? A horse can.
Eldar [00:39:26]:
Drive a truck. Is that, like, what's the measurement? I don't understand.
Anatoliy [00:39:29]:
Yeah, I mean, like, I don't have a scientific measurement here for you.
Eldar [00:39:34]:
Yeah, but, but you're making a very conclusive statement.
Anatoliy [00:39:38]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:39:39]:
That a horse's capacity is like limited or something. So, like, to be in a horse will die. It's a horse. Well, yes.
Anatoliy [00:39:45]:
Like, can a human right now do more things than a horse can do?
Mike [00:39:50]:
Well, what kind of things?
Eldar [00:39:51]:
And, okay, like, like actual things. Sure, yeah. Like yeah. Okay. A horse can. What do you mean? Like, horse, like, eats grass and shits and, like, gives birth or something and runs and. You talking about the human can, like, drive a truck and look at the.
Anatoliy [00:40:05]:
Stuff, make medicine, like, build things? Like, right. Yeah, like, right. Is that not more capacity?
Eldar [00:40:15]:
Yeah, but what does that have to do with anything? Like. Like an actual, like, actualization of, like, being an actual human. Like, so what that the human does all this?
Anatoliy [00:40:25]:
Well, I'm saying that the human has more, like, more. Higher levels of consciousness and more potential than a horse could.
Eldar [00:40:33]:
Potential for what, though? I don't understand.
Anatoliy [00:40:34]:
To do different things.
Mike [00:40:36]:
But are those.
Eldar [00:40:37]:
How are you judging that as being, like, a. The great. Greater thing? Greater good? Yeah.
Mike [00:40:43]:
Right. Other humans. Like, is that part of the potential too? Well, I mean, it has to be, right? Well, that's a bad thing. So horses are better because they can't kill.
Anatoliy [00:40:54]:
Why horses can't kill?
Mike [00:40:55]:
I don't know. I'm not sure.
Anatoliy [00:40:58]:
Yeah, I don't know.
Mike [00:40:59]:
You know?
Anatoliy [00:41:01]:
Yeah, I don't know. I mean. I mean, to me, it just sounds that, like, humans have more potential to do more things than a horse can. Like that. I mean, do you disagree with that?
Eldar [00:41:14]:
I'm not really sure what you're saying, but that. Or what you mean by that. Like. Like, more things. Like, just things. I agree that the human probably does more things, engages in more activities than the horse does. Like, a regular horse.
Anatoliy [00:41:28]:
More. More potential than a horse. It has higher levels of.
Eldar [00:41:33]:
I'm not sure about.
Anatoliy [00:41:34]:
Like, it has higher levels of.
Eldar [00:41:36]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:41:36]:
Function.
Eldar [00:41:36]:
Sure. But would you say that the horse actually actualizes as a horse better than the human actualizes a human fulfilling its purpose? Yeah. Purpose to be a horse.
Anatoliy [00:41:50]:
And what's a human's purpose?
Eldar [00:41:51]:
To be a human.
Anatoliy [00:41:52]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:41:52]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:41:53]:
So how can you compare the two?
Eldar [00:41:55]:
Well, I'm asking you that question.
Anatoliy [00:41:58]:
Well, you mean, I'm just. I'm not comparing the highest level of human to the highest level of horse.
Eldar [00:42:05]:
I'm not talking about a high level sort. I'm just talking about a horse. That a horse. That is a horse.
Anatoliy [00:42:08]:
Yeah. I'm saying that a human can physically do many more things than a horse can do.
Eldar [00:42:13]:
Okay, no problem.
Anatoliy [00:42:14]:
So what that's all saying. Okay, so when it comes to being, like, humans are much more complex beings than a horse.
Eldar [00:42:24]:
Mm hmm. Okay. What's the point? I don't remember.
Mike [00:42:28]:
The point was I was talking about. I was trying to connect it to, like, the thing is, he's saying that humans are more complex, and I'm like, well, is it and by nature that we're more complex or we just, like, we became complex.
Anatoliy [00:42:40]:
Right.
Mike [00:42:41]:
Cuz like. Yeah, horses, they have a manual how to be a horse.
Eldar [00:42:43]:
Right. I guess.
Mike [00:42:45]:
But like, it's passed down.
Eldar [00:42:47]:
Yeah, well, it's like pre programmed.
Mike [00:42:49]:
Pre programmed, I guess other animals and trees.
Anatoliy [00:42:52]:
Right.
Mike [00:42:52]:
And plants, they all have like.
Eldar [00:42:53]:
I guess, yeah.
Mike [00:42:54]:
They're kind of a way they operate.
Eldar [00:42:55]:
Humans missing.
Mike [00:42:57]:
I think humans are trying to find it.
Anatoliy [00:42:59]:
There's much more simplicity in, like, a horse's life in the way that it's brought up compared to, like, humans or.
Eldar [00:43:09]:
A complex and that being a bad thing or good thing.
Mike [00:43:12]:
Oh, it makes it easier for the horses, I think you're saying.
Anatoliy [00:43:15]:
I'm not sure if it's. If it's like a judgment, it's a bad thing or a good thing.
Eldar [00:43:20]:
So what is the point?
Mike [00:43:21]:
No, my point is trying to. I was saying that I think because people, they're not told their purpose or they don't know their purpose.
Eldar [00:43:30]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:43:31]:
Versus other animals or plants. They have a purpose and they're able to fulfill it.
Eldar [00:43:35]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:43:36]:
You know, I think that's where he was saying something about we're much more complex, so it's not that easy to solve it. So I was trying to say that's because we don't know our purpose, but we're trying to find it, but, yeah.
Eldar [00:43:47]:
Okay. All right, so what we're. A horse doesn't have the same complexities and therefore it's already simple.
Mike [00:43:53]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:43:53]:
To do what a horse supposed to be doing.
Mike [00:43:55]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:43:55]:
But a human, on the other hand, almost sounds like it's flawed with all its complexities.
Mike [00:44:01]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:44:01]:
And it's confused about its purpose.
Mike [00:44:02]:
Yeah. But I'm not sure.
Eldar [00:44:04]:
Is that it?
Anatoliy [00:44:04]:
Yeah, well, I know if it's like, I think naturally, because humans are more complex, it will be much. It's more difficult.
Mike [00:44:12]:
But like, you, is the complex, like, built in? You're saying that we're built complex people?
Anatoliy [00:44:17]:
I think that, yeah, I think that humans are, from birth, much more complex creatures than a horse's.
Mike [00:44:26]:
How can that. How can that be? Well, why do you think that?
Anatoliy [00:44:30]:
Well, like, humans have larger sized brains. They have larger, like. Right. Like they have some abilities to. Not saying that all humans understand, like, everything or lots of things.
Eldar [00:44:43]:
What about whales? What about whales?
Mike [00:44:44]:
They have bigger brains than us.
Eldar [00:44:46]:
I think the whales have bigger brains than humans. I don't know.
Anatoliy [00:44:51]:
I mean, it sounds like they might have physically larger sized brains, but I.
Eldar [00:44:54]:
Don'T know what they're used as, like, an example. Like, okay, cool.
Anatoliy [00:44:59]:
I'm not talking about, like, particularly size wise. I'm talking about.
Eldar [00:45:04]:
Okay, so you have bigger brains. Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:45:07]:
Like, they. Like humans. Yeah, like that. I mean, that's at least the way that I understand it or look at it, but could be wrong, obviously. But to me, it's like, humans have more potential. They have higher. Higher. Just levels, and they're much more complex.
Mike [00:45:24]:
Yeah, but the potential goes up either way. But then.
Anatoliy [00:45:27]:
Exactly.
Mike [00:45:29]:
I'm not sure if you can. Like, I'm not sure if it's, like, a call. Like, oh, that's a good thing.
Anatoliy [00:45:34]:
Just. I'm not judging right now if it's a good thing or a bad thing. I'm just saying. What. What is.
Mike [00:45:39]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:45:40]:
Humans are more complex that.
Mike [00:45:42]:
But then if you're saying. You're just saying it, then it doesn't. How is it relative to that?
Eldar [00:45:46]:
Because he's confusing, I think because you're using the word potential. They have bigger potential. And potential. You associate it with what? A good thing or a bad thing?
Mike [00:45:54]:
I sensuated with a good thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Eldar [00:45:56]:
That's, like, a horse is limited.
Anatoliy [00:45:59]:
I'm saying that, like, a human is more complex than a horse. That's what I'm arguing for.
Mike [00:46:07]:
Mm hmm. Yeah, no, I understand that, but I'm not. And I asked, do you think that's inherently we're more complex or not? Because then. Then I'm interested in that answer. Are we born as complex beings?
Anatoliy [00:46:22]:
Yes, I think humans. Humans. And, like, it comes. It comes down to just simply, like, I think, like, potential. Like, they. They have more abilities. Born with more abilities, and if survive, have ability. More abilities than a horse would, from my understanding.
Eldar [00:46:42]:
Based on what knowledge? Based on just observation.
Anatoliy [00:46:47]:
Yeah, based on, just, like, my understandings. Like, I don't have, like, a chemical lab that I've studied.
Eldar [00:46:53]:
Well, no, it doesn't have to be chemical lab, but, like, you know, like, obviously, you know, you didn't study the complexities of an animal's autonomy and everything else. Right?
Anatoliy [00:47:04]:
Like, no, no, you didn't.
Eldar [00:47:05]:
Right. They're. They're pretty complex, too. Right. You would think also, like, the way they're built, what their roles are, what they do, how they do it. Right. I'm not sure if minimizing it or at least measuring it just against a human is that it's that simple without really knowing what's going on with them as well.
Anatoliy [00:47:26]:
But then it's also, I think that, like, then is it the same thing argument with, like, nature. Like, is it, like, can you say for sure that nature is better? Or, like, the answer compared to, like, other things?
Eldar [00:47:39]:
I'm not sure what the question is like.
Anatoliy [00:47:41]:
Like, oftentimes, for example, like, when we're discussing something, I don't know, Mike might say. Or you might say, for example, like, oh, well, look at nature, right? Like, this is this harmonious thing that that's going on. How can you definitely say that without particular, like, studies for that? For example.
Eldar [00:48:00]:
What was the example that I used against?
Anatoliy [00:48:03]:
I don't know. For example, like, Mike's whole premise here at begin with, he's like, well, look at nature. Right? What was your premise here?
Mike [00:48:09]:
Yeah, no, I do think there is. I haven't studied, but I do think that nature has a way that.
Eldar [00:48:14]:
Like what? Like, let's. How about this? How about this?
Anatoliy [00:48:16]:
Well, it's the same thing here. Like, I have not studied, but I've.
Mike [00:48:18]:
Been waking up for 37 years, and I have seen the sun every day come up and down, you know, except when the cloud.
Eldar [00:48:24]:
How about, like we talked about, you know, like, the only. The only animal in the world that doesn't know how to build their own homes is a human.
Anatoliy [00:48:35]:
But, like, what do you mean they don't know how to build, like, you.
Eldar [00:48:38]:
Don'T know how to build your own shelter? You take any squirrel, any bird, any animal, they'll. They know how to build their own shelter. But there's no, like, like a, like a squirrel academy where they only go there for all the squirrels.
Anatoliy [00:48:53]:
No, but how do you know that they're not being taught how to do that?
Eldar [00:48:58]:
What?
Anatoliy [00:48:58]:
How do you know that?
Eldar [00:48:59]:
Like, like, whether or not they go to school or not.
Anatoliy [00:49:01]:
No, just, like, what do you mean taught? Since you're saying if you. If you take a squirrel, right, and it pops out, like, whatever way it's born.
Eldar [00:49:11]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:49:11]:
Right. And you take it out.
Eldar [00:49:12]:
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.
Anatoliy [00:49:14]:
Just right away from birth. Take it out.
Eldar [00:49:16]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:49:17]:
They will inherently know how to. Also, how do you know that humans would not. Not know how to build their own?
Eldar [00:49:23]:
Well, no, we're talking about harmony, right? Talking about the difference between nature.
Anatoliy [00:49:28]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:49:28]:
Right. The natural war, the order right now versus humans. Right? If we're talking about that, we're talking about the fact that animals can do that right now. Like, they can do it.
Anatoliy [00:49:38]:
And we know that humans can't if put on, they've actualized at higher levels who need to do humans.
Eldar [00:49:49]:
Humans did.
Anatoliy [00:49:50]:
Well, like humans have.
Eldar [00:49:52]:
You know, you know that there's poverty, there's. There's people that are homeless, that there's. There's a lot of. There's a lot going on in the world.
Anatoliy [00:49:59]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:50:00]:
That is showing that people actually not. The humans did not actually actualize past the point of solving poverty and homelessness.
Anatoliy [00:50:08]:
Well, well, yeah, we're just.
Eldar [00:50:10]:
We're just. We're just right now comparing two things. Shelter. Right?
Anatoliy [00:50:12]:
Okay.
Eldar [00:50:13]:
In the world. Right?
Anatoliy [00:50:13]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:50:14]:
There's no. There's no. What's his name? Homeless animals out there. Unless they were, of course, you know, like, manipulated by the humans.
Mike [00:50:22]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:50:23]:
Well, because they, like nature. They have much less. They have much smaller requirements. Right.
Eldar [00:50:31]:
Of what are small requirements?
Anatoliy [00:50:33]:
Smaller requirements of, like, shelter.
Eldar [00:50:35]:
And humans do have larger requirements.
Anatoliy [00:50:37]:
Well, yeah, right.
Mike [00:50:38]:
Inherently they have largely.
Eldar [00:50:40]:
Or. Yeah. Like.
Mike [00:50:41]:
Or we just kind of made it.
Anatoliy [00:50:42]:
Like, the temperatures that humans, like, I guess. Like an animal can live outside, for example. Right? Certain ones can, right?
Eldar [00:50:51]:
Yeah. And.
Anatoliy [00:50:52]:
But, like, humans can't live outside.
Eldar [00:50:54]:
Who told you that?
Anatoliy [00:50:59]:
Well, I mean, like.
Eldar [00:51:00]:
I mean. But people live all across the world. Like, people live, you know, in Alaska, people live in crazy temperatures, too.
Anatoliy [00:51:07]:
Yeah, but they live in homes, right?
Eldar [00:51:09]:
Yeah. And shelter. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So what's. What's. I don't understand the point.
Anatoliy [00:51:12]:
I mean, I don't understand what your question is then.
Eldar [00:51:16]:
I'm just telling. We're talking about with the argument of animals having the ability to build shelters for themselves.
Anatoliy [00:51:21]:
Yes.
Eldar [00:51:22]:
Humans, the way we are now. Right. Developed or whichever way you said that we've progressed, don't have that same ability. Everybody doesn't know how to create a shelter for themselves.
Anatoliy [00:51:31]:
But everybody doesn't need to know how to create a shelter for themselves.
Mike [00:51:35]:
Why not?
Eldar [00:51:36]:
Yeah, but the matter of fact, I'm explaining to you the matter of fact of that the animals are not suffering from the same thing that the humans are suffering. So that knowledge or whatever innate that maybe was in us when we were first be able to live, maybe in the cave or somewhere is no longer there for us, that we don't know how to sustain ourselves the way we used to.
Anatoliy [00:51:56]:
Maybe, but how do you know? Like, how are you making that assessment that we don't know how to sustain ourselves?
Eldar [00:52:01]:
We have homeless people right now, bro.
Anatoliy [00:52:04]:
And is that because this is old? Is that because they don't know how to. Their lack of ability of building.
Eldar [00:52:09]:
Creating shelter? Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:52:11]:
Do you think so?
Eldar [00:52:11]:
Why? No.
Anatoliy [00:52:12]:
So not because they have a mental.
Eldar [00:52:14]:
Well that's conditioned. That's obvious. That's obvious. One of those things. But they're not born.
Anatoliy [00:52:19]:
They weren't born.
Eldar [00:52:21]:
They weren't born with a mental condition. Condition, my man.
Anatoliy [00:52:23]:
No, I know, but I'm saying that are they homeless right now because they don't know how to take physical tools and build a shelter around them, or are they homeless for a different reason?
Eldar [00:52:32]:
Yeah, but that's to be able to survive, just to survive. I'm talking about a shelter. That's the first thing that the animals do, right? To survive and have shelter. And humans are losing that, lost that ability. You understand? We don't have that ability, but they.
Anatoliy [00:52:45]:
Don'T need to have it. Right?
Eldar [00:52:46]:
What are you talking about? We don't need to have it? Don't you live in the home?
Anatoliy [00:52:49]:
Well, yeah.
Eldar [00:52:50]:
Yeah, you need to have it.
Anatoliy [00:52:51]:
I need to know how to build a home. To live in a home.
Eldar [00:52:53]:
No, particularly, you know, but there's plenty of people that don't live in the home. You have that. You have that privilege to live in the home because you have a job.
Anatoliy [00:53:01]:
Yeah.
Eldar [00:53:02]:
You know what I'm saying? Yeah, a lot of people don't live in the home.
Anatoliy [00:53:07]:
But not because they have, like. Because they may be lacking different types of.
Eldar [00:53:14]:
You're saying it's a choice?
Anatoliy [00:53:15]:
Well, it doesn't mean that they don't know how to, like, like, to me, like, different types of humans are all different in different ways and have different skills. Right? And because some skills might be stronger, they may be able to leverage those skills to get other needs. Like some people might be, I don't know, very good. Agricultural. Right. Ultra league.
Eldar [00:53:38]:
Right.
Anatoliy [00:53:39]:
And they're like. They're good at, like, I don't know, planting and making crops and stuff like that. Not everybody needs to have that ability anymore. Or some people are good at with their hands, like building homes or construction, stuff like that. Not everybody needs to have that skill anymore. Where?
Eldar [00:53:56]:
I think so then we lost the ability to do what? Trade and share?
Anatoliy [00:54:01]:
No, we like that abilities out right now to those.
Eldar [00:54:05]:
Yeah. I'm explaining to you with the basic needs that the animals meet, humans don't meet. We don't meet those because of the fact that we have poverty and we have homelessness.
Anatoliy [00:54:16]:
Okay, sure. But statistically, yes, but not because we don't know how to build. Not build houses.
Eldar [00:54:23]:
Those individuals don't know. Those individuals that are homeless and stuff like that. Those that can't eat, that don't have food, they don't know how to do it. You know what I'm saying? If they did, they'd be doing it. You think they just innately are born without ability? No, they're not made certain.
Anatoliy [00:54:39]:
They made certain.
Eldar [00:54:40]:
Now you're saying it's by choice?
Anatoliy [00:54:42]:
Yeah. I mean, okay, they have the ability.
Eldar [00:54:45]:
Okay.
Anatoliy [00:54:46]:
They have. You know, I mean, like, if you have, you know.
Eldar [00:54:48]:
Yeah. Well, you, you recognize that those, those people have not met the basic needs for survival.
Anatoliy [00:54:55]:
Does every animal meet all their basic needs?
Eldar [00:54:58]:
I'm explaining to you, with the animal in the animal world, this is what the animals do. They create their own shelter. Every animal knows how to fucking survive. You know what I mean? They don't have poverty, you know?
Anatoliy [00:55:12]:
Okay.
Eldar [00:55:13]:
Okay, cool.
Anatoliy [00:55:15]:
But so, like, what is that?
Eldar [00:55:16]:
What's the point?
Anatoliy [00:55:17]:
So, yeah, I mean, I don't understand.
Eldar [00:55:19]:
So let's go back to the point then again.
Mike [00:55:21]:
No, my point is that nature, the way nature is designed.
Eldar [00:55:24]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:55:24]:
You know, and if we're. I'm not sure if we are part of nature.
Eldar [00:55:27]:
Yeah.
Mike [00:55:28]:
You know, then something doesn't add up to me.
Eldar [00:55:32]:
Well, that's. That's one. That's what I'm saying. That's one of the examples.
Mike [00:55:34]:
If nature is harmonious, all the animals live together.
Anatoliy [00:55:37]:
Says who, though? How do you know that they're harmonious? What kind of studies have you done to know that?
Mike [00:55:44]:
I've done a lot of studies. I watched a lot of natural.
Anatoliy [00:55:46]:
It's the same argument, though. Like, I mean, why squirrels get run over. They, like, why can't they learn to, uh. I don't know that there's cars and they have to look, because squirrels were.
Mike [00:55:57]:
Around before the cars were around.
Anatoliy [00:55:59]:
Yeah, but why haven't they not adapted?
Eldar [00:56:04]:
Those are the ones that commit suicide. Yeah. By choice. Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:56:09]:
I don't know. Like, to me, to tell me that, like, like, I feel like the argument that, like, horses have the same kind of, like, capabilities and brain capacities.
Eldar [00:56:18]:
Nobody said that they have the same human. You're making you making a judgment call that they don't have the same, same.
Anatoliy [00:56:25]:
I think that I'm asking you, I'm.
Eldar [00:56:28]:
Challenging you, whether or not. How'd you figure that out to know? How do you know the complexities of a horse is my.
Anatoliy [00:56:33]:
I definitely can't. But then also, how can you know the. The complexities of nature and know that it's hundred percent?
Eldar [00:56:40]:
I'm just telling you what certain things that is observed by nature from us. We, as humans, observe what nature does and we see what we do, and we compare the two. That's all. That's all I'm explaining to you. If you observe animals, that animals create their own shelter. Humans have struggled with that. You know what I mean, you have not. You were not born and you were like, okay, cool.
Eldar [00:57:01]:
Your mom did not teach you. Did not pass that on to you. You know what I mean? But you weren't taught that.
Anatoliy [00:57:05]:
But that's. Yeah, but I don't think that that's a fair, like, argument to make on that, because if that was something that was required for me. Like, it was. It is. Might be required for a squirrel.
Eldar [00:57:16]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [00:57:16]:
And I would have been passed down that. Right.
Mike [00:57:19]:
But is it gonna get lost in translation?
Eldar [00:57:23]:
I don't know what that means.
Mike [00:57:24]:
It means that we think. We're thinking that our job or our purpose is to do something, and we keep getting further away from what our actual job into purposes which, you know, could be something else.
Anatoliy [00:57:35]:
That's a different argument. I'm saying that when it comes to, like, I don't think it's a fair argument to say that, like, look, squirrels know how to build their own shelter, and, look, humans don't. You weren't passed down with that. Right? Like, I don't see how that's a fair art. No. Like, do you guys.
Mike [00:57:56]:
I think. I think there's a lot of other examples in nature that exist.
Eldar [00:57:59]:
I just show. I showed. I told you about the comparison that humans have not figured out. Right. This problem that we have with homelessness and poverty. You know, you did not accept that. You said, the reasons why we don't have it, we don't figure out because we don't need to. I don't understand how you say that, that we don't need to.
Eldar [00:58:17]:
We actually do need to.
Anatoliy [00:58:18]:
I don't think that.
Eldar [00:58:19]:
Trying to figure that out. No, but I don't provide shelter for everybody.
Anatoliy [00:58:22]:
No, no, no. But I don't think that, like, the issue. Like, the issue that we have with poverty and stuff like that is not because we haven't been able to figure out how to do it. Like, there's a clear way of how to do it, and there's clearly enough money to do so. There's different elements in here, like profitability, greed. Right. Like, different things like that. Right? Like, it's not that we don't know how to build enough shelter for everybody.
Anatoliy [00:58:48]:
That's not, like, what we don't know how to do. Right. Like, there's. Yeah, but money involved. There's capitalism involved, that kind of stuff.
Mike [00:58:57]:
Not.
Anatoliy [00:58:57]:
Not the inability of the argument that.
Eldar [00:59:00]:
Mike's bringing out and saying it's about harmony.
Anatoliy [00:59:02]:
Right.
Eldar [00:59:02]:
He's asking about the harmonious thing. Why don't you. Challenging us and saying, why are you guys under that impression, right, that the nature is more harmonious and does things the way it does and it's better than what the humans are doing. You know what I'm saying?
Anatoliy [00:59:18]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [00:59:18]:
And the only example I brought to you, for example, is the fact that we have a big problem, which you don't recognize in poverty and, you know, and no homelessness. I recognize animals don't have that problem. So that that's just one shows you that the animals got that one right, which is nature by nature, by design, has that one particularly right where we don't sustain humans the same way right now, even though, yes, collectively, maybe we do know how to create fucking homes. I get that. But for ourselves, the basic needs, many people don't have that you just happen to know, have a skill to be able to trade your skill for a home, for somebody else to build you a home. That's you.
Anatoliy [00:59:58]:
So you're saying that the animals don't have to trade skills for their own survival?
Eldar [01:00:02]:
I'm explaining. I said one thing. I said that the animals build their own homes, okay? They know how to.
Anatoliy [01:00:12]:
So what, what does that tell us?
Eldar [01:00:15]:
That just tells us what. What might goes towards the argument, right? The nature, by, when we do the observation of nature, they got that figured out. They living in that harmony, for example.
Anatoliy [01:00:28]:
Okay, so that part they got figured out. Does that, what does that tell us now? Like, overall.
Eldar [01:00:35]:
I mean, which conclusion would you like to draw from that?
Anatoliy [01:00:37]:
Well, no, that's what I'm trying to say. It's like, what conclusion are we drawing that? Well, animals ability to make their homes and humans don't. What conclusion are we drawing from?
Eldar [01:00:45]:
Okay, humans, how about this? Humans don't know how to sustain themselves fully.
Anatoliy [01:00:54]:
And animals do.
Eldar [01:00:55]:
And animals do. Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:00:56]:
Purely because they know how to build their own homes themselves and humans don't.
Eldar [01:01:00]:
Yeah. For that, you know, like five for the themselves.
Anatoliy [01:01:03]:
And is that a fair judgment of whether you can sustain yourself or not?
Eldar [01:01:09]:
I'm not talking about an individual level. I'm talking about collective now. Right? We're talking about collective of society in the culture that we have.
Anatoliy [01:01:15]:
Okay?
Eldar [01:01:16]:
The way we have it right now, the way it's structured right now, we have a lot of poverty, we have a lot of homelessness. Do you not agree with that?
Anatoliy [01:01:22]:
Yes, I agree.
Eldar [01:01:22]:
Okay, cool. Do you agree that animals don't have that? If you don't agree with this, we don't have a conversation. There's no point of talking.
Anatoliy [01:01:31]:
Yeah, I mean, I can only guess that animals don't have this. But I actually don't know.
Mike [01:01:35]:
Cool.
Eldar [01:01:35]:
Okay, so we don't have a. We don't have until you. Until you jump over that right there. We don't have an argument here.
Anatoliy [01:01:40]:
But do you guys have. No. For sure.
Eldar [01:01:42]:
Well, listen, we might have to find out. I mean, after we. I'm gonna have to go out there and observe homeless animals. Yeah. No, homeless girls.
Anatoliy [01:01:52]:
Like, do you know for a fact.
Eldar [01:01:54]:
Squirrels.
Anatoliy [01:01:54]:
Do you know that for a fact that animals don't have an issue with building their own shelters?
Mike [01:01:59]:
Homeless.
Eldar [01:01:59]:
With homelessness?
Anatoliy [01:02:01]:
Well, with. With, like, having enough shelter to protect themselves from the elements.
Eldar [01:02:05]:
With homelessness. Right. Totally. I'm talking about very specific terms here. Don't. Don't play stupid. It's homelessness. Right.
Eldar [01:02:13]:
And what? Poverty, not having the ability feed themselves, have hungry stomachs and stuff like that. Right? This is what we're talking about. We're talking about only very, very basic needs here. Very basic needs. You happen to still have a problem with it. With this. With this thing, you know? Okay, since you're not convinced that what I'm telling you is a fact about animals not having the same issue as we do. Right.
Eldar [01:02:41]:
When it comes to a collective. Right. Now, you can bring an argument if you want. You know what? There was a forest, Mike, which we decided to deforest.
Mike [01:02:50]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:02:51]:
We made a lot of animals. What's his name? Homeless. Yeah, you could bring that argument.
Mike [01:02:57]:
Yeah. Which is. Which is actually something that's happening.
Eldar [01:03:02]:
Which. Deforestation. Deforestation does happen.
Mike [01:03:04]:
Yeah. And then those animals are endangered, and then they disappear.
Eldar [01:03:08]:
Yeah. Because of who?
Mike [01:03:11]:
Humans.
Eldar [01:03:12]:
Oh, those animals. I don't know why you keep fighting this harmonious thing that we keep bringing up the same. Same way every single time.
Mike [01:03:24]:
Also, the trees provide oxygen.
Eldar [01:03:29]:
Yeah.
Mike [01:03:30]:
There was no oxygen.
Eldar [01:03:31]:
Well, how do you know that? Actually saw that.
Mike [01:03:35]:
I haven't been to a place where there's no trees and not.
Eldar [01:03:37]:
Yeah. Okay. Have you went in the lab and saw that the tree produces oxygen?
Mike [01:03:41]:
No, but I know one guy. Julius.
Eldar [01:03:43]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:03:44]:
No, I mean, like, you guys are just, like, attacking my argument of knowing humans to trees. And the one question I can't jump over is, like, have you done scientific research?
Mike [01:03:56]:
Yeah, I haven't. Personally, I'm not a scientist.
Eldar [01:03:58]:
But you've done a scientific research on human brain capacity.
Anatoliy [01:04:02]:
Clearly haven't. I haven't. Right. That's what I'm saying. I can't jump over that.
Eldar [01:04:07]:
But you're making the conclusion.
Mike [01:04:09]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:04:09]:
You know.
Anatoliy [01:04:10]:
Yeah, but I'm saying is that when I throw that challenge back, at you. You guys are still making a conclusion, right?
Eldar [01:04:14]:
That. Yeah, I'm definitely making a conclusion, but.
Anatoliy [01:04:16]:
You have not done in a lab.
Eldar [01:04:17]:
Like, I did not definitely do it. But I'm making the conclusion, though, and you know what I'm saying? By observation, my own personal observation.
Anatoliy [01:04:24]:
That's what I'm saying. My conclusions also from my personal observations.
Eldar [01:04:28]:
Okay, cool. Yeah. Touche. Yeah.
Mike [01:04:32]:
So we're not scientifically backed enough.
Anatoliy [01:04:37]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:04:38]:
Yeah.
Mike [01:04:39]:
To make any conclusions or things on either side, so.
Eldar [01:04:42]:
Yeah. Okay.
Mike [01:04:43]:
But, you know, I might have to stay with on the ignorant side and be harmonious, though.
Eldar [01:04:49]:
Yeah. I mean, listen, you might have to, you know.
Mike [01:04:52]:
Yeah. I guess in nature, too, there is a thing of survival of the fittest.
Eldar [01:04:55]:
Right? Yeah.
Mike [01:04:57]:
And that could maybe tie back to what original we're discussing, where some people just not, you know, maybe resilient enough. Right. So, ready wanting to survive enough, you know, to figure out that question of what's eating Gilbert's grapes.
Eldar [01:05:16]:
Yeah. Okay, so what else, Mike? What else is eating you? Harmoniously?
Mike [01:05:25]:
No, no, that was it. I mean, I have to do more research. I got nothing.
Eldar [01:05:29]:
But when you find those homeless animals.
Mike [01:05:31]:
Yeah. I should let you know.
Eldar [01:05:32]:
You should definitely let me know. Okay. Cause I wanna close this argument once and for all.
Mike [01:05:36]:
Okay. Well, I mean, I'll keep an eye out.
Eldar [01:05:39]:
If you should find a salvation army of squirrels lining up to Salvation Army.
Anatoliy [01:05:43]:
I mean, that's clearly not what I'm saying.
Mike [01:05:45]:
Come on.
Eldar [01:05:46]:
What do you mean? What are you saying?
Anatoliy [01:05:50]:
I'm saying that, like, do you. Is it a fact that. For example, it is a fact that.
Eldar [01:05:54]:
We have homeless people in poverty? Totally.
Anatoliy [01:05:56]:
Yes. Is it a fact.
Eldar [01:05:57]:
Show me those animals.
Anatoliy [01:05:59]:
So then it. Can it be, like, is it possible that animals have difficulty with, I don't know, building sustainable shelters or with food, for example? Are those two issues not possible for.
Eldar [01:06:14]:
On their own behalf? I'm not sure. Totally.
Mike [01:06:17]:
Without human intervention.
Anatoliy [01:06:19]:
I'm not sure if humans are humans, part of nature.
Eldar [01:06:23]:
They could be. I mean. But.
Mike [01:06:25]:
But their behavior doesn't always show it.
Eldar [01:06:27]:
Yeah. Like, if we're. Like, if we're doing a deforestation, for example, a huge area.
Anatoliy [01:06:31]:
Okay.
Eldar [01:06:32]:
The animals cannot survive because it's a symbiotic relationship. You know that the trees, for example, they drop nuts.
Anatoliy [01:06:37]:
Okay.
Eldar [01:06:38]:
Okay. They sustain, for example, ten squirrels.
Anatoliy [01:06:41]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:06:42]:
If their tree doesn't exist, that squirrel cannot eat.
Mike [01:06:44]:
Okay.
Eldar [01:06:45]:
Do you understand that?
Anatoliy [01:06:46]:
Yes. No, 100%.
Eldar [01:06:48]:
Now, if the human takes. Reverse, the animals taking away humans, buildings.
Anatoliy [01:06:55]:
Well, yeah, I'm saying that. Could that show that, I guess I mean, what we're doing to them is clearly a bad thing there it is, but, yeah, clearly a bad thing for them.
Eldar [01:07:07]:
For them.
Anatoliy [01:07:08]:
Right. I'm not sure why the humans are doing that. What reasons? They have themselves, right. But, like, do we have better abilities than in, like, protecting our habitats and protecting, like, our lives then, that animals do?
Eldar [01:07:26]:
What do you mean by that?
Anatoliy [01:07:28]:
Like, animals can't just come to our town, right? And just say, like. I mean, they could do some things, right? But we have, I would say, a decent amount of resources on a lot of things, right, to, like, do. I don't know. We have termites, right? Like, try to fuck up our shit. Okay. You could call termite people. They'll come in and they'll wipe them all out.
Mike [01:07:49]:
Right?
Anatoliy [01:07:50]:
I don't know. You could have rats, right, or mice, and you could set up traps and stuff like that and, like, eliminate that and maybe figure out why it's happening to begin with. Like, I don't know if you have fleas or flies or whatever.
Eldar [01:08:04]:
Are you that point?
Anatoliy [01:08:05]:
Right. Like, why do we have those abilities to do that and. And animals, though?
Mike [01:08:09]:
Because we're complex, like you said. Yeah, we have a choice.
Anatoliy [01:08:13]:
But do you guys agree with that?
Eldar [01:08:15]:
Agree with what? The fact that this is how this phenomena is happening. I agree with the fact.
Anatoliy [01:08:18]:
No, but why can't. Why can't they, like, more. Do you agree that we have more abilities to protect our. Our things and our.
Eldar [01:08:29]:
I guess that's a consequence wise.
Anatoliy [01:08:32]:
No, just, like, ability wise.
Mike [01:08:34]:
Send the nuke into the tornado.
Eldar [01:08:35]:
Yeah.
Mike [01:08:37]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:08:38]:
Like, because we don't have the ability to understand nature, maybe, right. In the way it works and why it works the way it does. Right. We happen to make certain things. Right and do certain things in such a way where we need to protect them, protect ourselves versus.
Anatoliy [01:08:52]:
But nature doesn't have that ability, right? Like, that same ability, I guess.
Eldar [01:08:55]:
No, I think nature bites back, too. I mean, go. Go try to put your hand in a bee's nest right now. What do you think is gonna happen?
Anatoliy [01:09:03]:
You're gonna get stung 100%. But you can also get a suit, right? And you can destroy that bees nest.
Eldar [01:09:09]:
Yeah, sure. Okay.
Anatoliy [01:09:11]:
I'm saying that nature. That those things.
Eldar [01:09:13]:
What is your point of the fact that you're saying that. Okay, you're saying that are we stronger than nature?
Anatoliy [01:09:17]:
Like, humans are more smarter and more powerful creatures. Right, than some of these examples in nature. Right?
Eldar [01:09:25]:
Well, how about an earthquake then? Is that a natural phenomena or is that a human made phenomena?
Anatoliy [01:09:33]:
I don't I'm not sure.
Eldar [01:09:35]:
Okay, cool. What about a volcano?
Anatoliy [01:09:36]:
No, I'm talking about animals.
Eldar [01:09:38]:
You're talking about animals, right?
Anatoliy [01:09:39]:
Yes.
Eldar [01:09:41]:
Sure. Animals. Yeah. Humans are more powerful than animals because they can destroy them and animals can't fight back. What's the point?
Anatoliy [01:09:48]:
So that's what I'm saying is that I think that we have more capabilities, more things that we could do. Comparison.
Eldar [01:09:53]:
Yeah, but so what animals. But what. What is the point?
Anatoliy [01:09:57]:
Mike's. Mike's question to begin with was. Was trying to challenge that. Right?
Eldar [01:10:01]:
Challenge.
Anatoliy [01:10:02]:
What do you like if humans have more capabilities than animals?
Eldar [01:10:13]:
Okay, okay.
Anatoliy [01:10:16]:
Right. And they do.
Mike [01:10:17]:
No.
Eldar [01:10:17]:
Then in regard, just to be example that you brought. Yeah, yeah, sure. Humans can launch themselves into the space and animals can, like, humans can do.
Anatoliy [01:10:26]:
More complex things and animals can. No, like, do you not agree with that? I think animals hunter center.
Eldar [01:10:34]:
You might be. Yeah, you might be impression that you making these judgment calls probably is keep going to that. Like, we can do all these grain deals things and stuff like that, but, like, without actually knowing what's going on in their brains and how they function and what they're doing and what they're thinking, like, why are you under that impression?
Anatoliy [01:10:54]:
Like, no, but then, like, to the.
Eldar [01:10:59]:
Extreme, what arguments, I mean, can do.
Anatoliy [01:11:01]:
You're bringing an argument to me that, like, I absolutely cannot prove to you.
Eldar [01:11:05]:
Right.
Anatoliy [01:11:05]:
But then when I bring that same argument back to you, you both have a problem, like with that. And you view me as an idiot.
Eldar [01:11:13]:
About what? Which part? With the part. The fact that you don't agree. The fact that I told you there's no homeless animals out there.
Anatoliy [01:11:17]:
Well, no, like, just things in nature. Things in nature. There's a lot of things in nature that, like, I guess I've heard of, I could think of, I've assumed of certain observations I had. But I also cannot, like, prove a lot of things for certain because I have not done, like, I don't know, extensive, like a research or like analysis on these things. Yeah, right. I don't like, I don't like. I have it right. My general guess is that.
Anatoliy [01:11:45]:
Yeah, I think that probably that, like, I think. Yes. That there is definitely way more squirrels than humans that can from actually physically do the action of building their own home. Thousand percent. Like, I can. I don't know that for sure, but I can very well assume that that is accurate. Right. Based on just my observations.
Anatoliy [01:12:07]:
Right. But I also don't know if there's problems now because of, like, I don't know, different types of weather or human interaction or just, like, different worlds.
Eldar [01:12:17]:
Yeah. Okay.
Anatoliy [01:12:17]:
No, we're not homeless where squirrels might have issues in sustaining, like, particular. Like, I don't know, like, if there's crazy amount of rain in particular areas. Right. Well, that. Does that, like, wipe away the homes that, like, squirrels might have that they did not, like, anticipate for? Are they not able to do that if there is that much rain? Right. Or if it's very dry?
Eldar [01:12:40]:
Yeah, but what would that tell you? I don't even say, what would that tell you? Like, how would that support your argument?
Anatoliy [01:12:45]:
No, I'm saying that, like, I don't know if they experience issues when it comes to.
Eldar [01:12:48]:
They probably do. I mean, they're susceptible to the natural way, just like we are. We have a hurricane.
Anatoliy [01:12:54]:
But your argument is that humans are much more. Are much more susceptible to that than animals, right?
Eldar [01:13:01]:
I gave you one specific example. I didn't give you anything else. What did I say?
Anatoliy [01:13:07]:
You said that squirrels can build their own animals.
Eldar [01:13:10]:
No, I said animals, right? Let's just say we're separate. Humans and animals too. Right? Animals in nature are capable to build their own shelter and they sustain themselves. Humans nowadays don't have that skill anymore. Some do, but most people don't. Like me, you. We don't know how to build a home from scratch. We just don't.
Eldar [01:13:32]:
Yeah, what I'm saying, that's not something.
Anatoliy [01:13:34]:
I just feel that that's not a fair argument.
Eldar [01:13:36]:
It's not an argument. It's a fact, bro.
Anatoliy [01:13:39]:
No, but. Okay. I don't think that that's a, like. I don't know, like a fair fact to compare sustainability measures.
Eldar [01:13:52]:
I mean, basic needs, bro. I'm explaining to you that people have not figured that out yet. You know what I'm saying? They have not figured out how to sustain themselves, you know, in such a way. We would all have poverty and we don't have homelessness. You know what I mean?
Anatoliy [01:14:04]:
It's. No, but it's not that they haven't figured it out.
Mike [01:14:09]:
It's.
Anatoliy [01:14:09]:
What do you really don't want to.
Eldar [01:14:11]:
I mean, that's a different. That's a different debate, bro.
Anatoliy [01:14:13]:
Right? Like, doing that, like, do do.
Eldar [01:14:16]:
Cool.
Anatoliy [01:14:16]:
Do do. Like, does the world not have enough money to build? Like. Like, to, like. Like, how much the Elon muse it would cost right now to. To, like, solve world hunger, right?
Eldar [01:14:32]:
I don't know, some billions dollars, but I don't know any of that.
Anatoliy [01:14:36]:
Right? Didn't he say, like 6 billion or something like that?
Eldar [01:14:38]:
Yeah. Okay. Sure. So what's right.
Anatoliy [01:14:40]:
I don't mean that like, it's not like there's nobody in the world doesn't have an excess of $6 billion to solve it. So it's not like we haven't, we don't know how to do this, is.
Mike [01:14:49]:
That we don't want to.
Anatoliy [01:14:50]:
Right.
Eldar [01:14:50]:
Okay.
Mike [01:14:51]:
But that.
Eldar [01:14:51]:
The point is that it's happening. It's actually here. And we have this problem. We have not, we have not leveled up, like you said. Whatever it is, the greed business, you know, like, whatever it is, like profitability, you know? Yeah. Power. For whatever reason that we have not built enough shelter for our people not to have. Be fucking homeless.
Anatoliy [01:15:13]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:15:13]:
Not to be starving. You know what I'm saying? World hunger is a thing. You know what I mean? We have not done that. That is a fact right now. I don't know why you have a problem with the fact that.
Anatoliy [01:15:24]:
I don't have a problem with the fact. I'm saying that I don't think it's a fair, like, it's a fair argument to make that, like, look, animals are sustainable.
Eldar [01:15:33]:
No, no. Because he's talking about harmony, right?
Anatoliy [01:15:36]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:15:36]:
They're harmonious and they have that. And I brought that as an example as to say, look, this is the basic needs. The basic needs.
Anatoliy [01:15:43]:
That's just one of the basic needs.
Eldar [01:15:45]:
I just brought one example.
Anatoliy [01:15:46]:
Yes.
Eldar [01:15:46]:
I just brought one example that. The fact that we have homelessness. Right?
Anatoliy [01:15:50]:
Yes.
Eldar [01:15:50]:
In general.
Anatoliy [01:15:51]:
Yes.
Eldar [01:15:52]:
As a society in general with homelessness.
Anatoliy [01:15:54]:
Okay.
Eldar [01:15:54]:
Animals can build their own shelter. That's. That was my only thing.
Anatoliy [01:15:57]:
Okay.
Eldar [01:16:01]:
So if we're natural, right, as you're arguing, we're also part of nature, right? And humans also are complex. Why haven't we figured that out? We don't have that because we inflicted by greed. So then you're saying, okay, cool. Now let's talk about the greed of squirrels and animals and talk about the human greed. Okay, you have to weigh those two then, right? Or no, like, how far do you want to go? Like, okay, we have capitalism and they don't. Whatever.
Anatoliy [01:16:30]:
Yeah, I just. Yeah. I feel like they know. I feel like the greater heights that we can get to, what I view as greater heights and the lower lows that we can get to is a result of our complexion, is a result of us being complex creatures where animals, I think, are more, they have lower highs, but they also have, like, not as low lows as humans can.
Mike [01:17:05]:
Those are all assumptions. You don't know.
Eldar [01:17:06]:
Yeah.
Mike [01:17:07]:
You don't know about you.
Anatoliy [01:17:09]:
That is my observation. Same thing anything that you also say are also assumptions because you have not done the scientific data and I have not either. Those.
Mike [01:17:17]:
I don't think you can scientifically prove that the enlightenment part, because I'm not sure anybody who's alive is enlightened. That you would have to ask if.
Eldar [01:17:25]:
Higher highs or low.
Anatoliy [01:17:26]:
What do you mean? Well, you say that humans are capable of reaching, are in general capable of doing and creating more than animals do.
Mike [01:17:37]:
But more though, like how is more. More people can have more cars or they can have more houses. Like they can build that.
Anatoliy [01:17:47]:
They can build more things, they can learn more information. They can create more.
Mike [01:17:53]:
What kind of point of all those things?
Anatoliy [01:17:55]:
I'm not talking about the pointer.
Mike [01:17:57]:
No, yeah, but just saying like all the stuff.
Eldar [01:18:00]:
Yeah. If you're, if you're, if you're not making the judgment call of say, okay, we could just do more. Okay, so what? What?
Mike [01:18:05]:
Well, you could do a bunch of nothing.
Eldar [01:18:06]:
Yeah. Like, yeah.
Mike [01:18:07]:
Dry run in circles your whole life.
Eldar [01:18:09]:
Yeah. You paving all the killing, all the.
Anatoliy [01:18:11]:
Yeah. My just my understanding is that humans are more complex creatures and animals are.
Eldar [01:18:18]:
Okay, I'm glad that you have that understanding. Let's move on then. You know, like what else? Okay, sure. They more complex. I don't know how you. What, what's, what's the point that he's arguing that he keeps saying that he's there. More complex. I understand he get here.
Mike [01:18:32]:
I don't know. We haven't. He's having issue with Harmony that you, you met. You said harmony.
Eldar [01:18:38]:
Is that right?
Mike [01:18:39]:
Harmony is too primitive versus how well we can achieve. That's what I'm saying.
Eldar [01:18:45]:
Okay.
Mike [01:18:46]:
Harmony is very limited. No, I'm saying potential.
Anatoliy [01:18:49]:
No, I'm not saying no, I'm saying that I think that. I think that humans are capable of doing.
Mike [01:19:03]:
How do you know whores is not in line?
Anatoliy [01:19:06]:
I don't.
Mike [01:19:07]:
How do you know what enlightenment looks like?
Anatoliy [01:19:09]:
I don't. I'm not saying that.
Eldar [01:19:11]:
Call what?
Mike [01:19:12]:
How can you make that call? Saying humans are complex, we can reach the higher highs so that, that has some value to it. Right? Or we're just saying random things that are not relative.
Eldar [01:19:21]:
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's also confusing. Like, first he says, no, there, I'm not putting value on it, but he does put value on it because he keeps saying that you can more can reach higher high or, or more potential means you're better.
Mike [01:19:33]:
Yes.
Eldar [01:19:34]:
No. Is that what you should. Not what you're saying. Why you keep saying that? I don't understand that.
Mike [01:19:40]:
He just thinks animals are dumb.
Eldar [01:19:42]:
Well, sure. You can have. He can have.
Anatoliy [01:19:44]:
Yeah, I just have, like, I just have an opinion that I think that humans can, um. That, like, humans can achieve more and do better things than like, some animals can.
Mike [01:20:00]:
Yeah. I don't know how you. Why don't we use an example here? Does he not bring a lot of love to a lot of people? Does he not make a lot of people happy?
Anatoliy [01:20:10]:
Okay.
Mike [01:20:11]:
That's all that. Does that mean anything in comparison to what? In comparison to another person, to some human? So human cannot do that?
Anatoliy [01:20:19]:
Value anything in comparison to what, though?
Mike [01:20:21]:
Other humans, because we're much greater than them, we can do much.
Anatoliy [01:20:24]:
Well, you brought a specific example, Archie, so now we need a specific, like, human.
Mike [01:20:28]:
Well, give a human example.
Anatoliy [01:20:30]:
Like how. How are you measuring that? Or are you putting arch.
Mike [01:20:33]:
I'm measuring law. I'm measuring something as direct result of him being himself.
Anatoliy [01:20:37]:
Okay.
Mike [01:20:37]:
And him bringing love to multiple people. Okay. That's a great capacity. Do you not think so?
Anatoliy [01:20:44]:
That what? That he can bring love.
Mike [01:20:46]:
That he can bring love and he can spark love and that people love him and he loves them. Do you not think that's a great capacity?
Anatoliy [01:20:53]:
I mean, that is good. Yeah.
Eldar [01:20:56]:
Okay.
Mike [01:20:58]:
What about humans?
Anatoliy [01:21:01]:
Okay.
Mike [01:21:02]:
Can they do the same?
Anatoliy [01:21:03]:
Can they? Yes.
Mike [01:21:05]:
Do they.
Anatoliy [01:21:06]:
I mean, do all dogs do? I'm not sure you're saying that. Yeah.
Mike [01:21:12]:
So they both.
Anatoliy [01:21:14]:
You're bringing a particular animal.
Mike [01:21:15]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:21:16]:
Who's a very good example. And, and they, uh. And, like, it is a biased example.
Eldar [01:21:25]:
Sure, but.
Anatoliy [01:21:26]:
Right. Is it not a bias example? Like, yeah, but you bring in, like.
Eldar [01:21:28]:
He'S only bringing that bias examples because you're saying that the, you're just ruling out the horse and saying, like, the horse is just a fucking horse. You know, it just eats hay.
Mike [01:21:36]:
You can't do anything.
Eldar [01:21:37]:
You know what I'm saying?
Mike [01:21:38]:
He doesn't have a capacity. You say, no, they don't have the water.
Anatoliy [01:21:41]:
I don't think it's a capacity that's the same as a.
Mike [01:21:43]:
So what is the capacity of a maximum capacity? Since we have a dog here? Seems like he has reached the pretty high level. I don't know if he has a more capacity, but I would consider love one of the higher capacities that anything has.
Eldar [01:21:57]:
You not gonna be able to tell you in any other example, Mike. Bigger than love, if that's what you're putting him against.
Mike [01:22:03]:
Can you.
Anatoliy [01:22:04]:
No, see, I mean, like, so there you go. Yeah.
Eldar [01:22:07]:
I mean, I just point, though, again, you know, if you're comparing horse to horse, you know, it's one thing, but you preparing horse to, like, horse to human, you like, it's incomparable things. A horse is an actualized horse, and the human is, is a human. Actually, it sounds like human has it worse.
Mike [01:22:25]:
You know what I mean?
Anatoliy [01:22:26]:
Generally, yeah.
Eldar [01:22:27]:
You know, when it comes to, when it comes to actualization, I mean, I haven't, don't have the fucking studies about how many horses turn out to be not horses bled, you know? And don't horse around.
Mike [01:22:37]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:22:37]:
You know?
Anatoliy [01:22:38]:
Or how many horses are happy, you.
Eldar [01:22:40]:
Know what I'm saying?
Anatoliy [01:22:40]:
How many are happy? Or how many are, like, taken by humans and just into slavery.
Eldar [01:22:46]:
Yeah. And you're bringing humans into it. When you start bringing humans into it, those, those animals are no longer fucking free roaming animals. They're not part of nature anymore. They're domesticated. You know what I mean?
Anatoliy [01:22:57]:
Yeah, but the horses don't have the ability to stand up for themselves. Right?
Mike [01:23:00]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:23:00]:
What, why you even bring that up, though? Like, why why you keep going there? I don't, I don't understand that. Like, why why the, the horses can't stand up for themselves?
Mike [01:23:11]:
Because he can stand up for himself. So therefore, what is that?
Eldar [01:23:15]:
What does that say?
Anatoliy [01:23:15]:
Like, so why, but is that part of, like, intelligence or. No.
Eldar [01:23:20]:
Or like the fact that you can get a hammer and hit a horse over the, over their head and, like, for it to bow to you? Like that.
Anatoliy [01:23:25]:
Like, no, that, like, like what?
Eldar [01:23:28]:
Intelligence that you, you're an ability to be able to come to the horse, ask it in a nice way to bring you home and ride it to the house, but instead you, you're gonna oppress it and say, like, yeah, I'm stronger than you. Like, so what? Like, how does that a measure of any type of intelligence I don't understand, like, hot. Like, it sounds like you ruled out nature and say, you can't really learn anything from it.
Mike [01:23:53]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [01:23:54]:
Like, that's what it sounds like.
Anatoliy [01:23:55]:
I'm definitely not saying that. Like, I'm not sure why you're attracting that.
Eldar [01:23:59]:
I'm extracting what you're saying. You're saying, like, yo, like, we're just stronger than that, Mike. You keep saying the same shit. Like, yo, we can just beat them up and take their houses. Like what? So what? Like, that's not a measure of, like, at least the potential of, well, yeah, value. Yeah, like.
Mike [01:24:18]:
Doing a lot of stuff doesn't mean necessarily generates, especially if you're.
Eldar [01:24:21]:
Fucking, just oppressing other animals. Like, yeah, so that's a worse of equality that we have, you know what I mean? Where animals are not inflicted by the same type of quality, like you just said. They don't just come around and, you know, and, uh, invade. I mean, some people. I mean, some. Some animal.
Mike [01:24:41]:
And some animals do have that because they've been what? Learned from. From the humans, you know? But if you leave the animals in the. In the nature, I'm not sure they're gonna behave like.
Eldar [01:24:54]:
Yeah. Why are you measuring our ability to, like, beat them up or something?
Anatoliy [01:24:58]:
Not about beat them up. No, it's not about beating up. I'm saying that, like, oppress them. Like, animals. Like, certain animals, I guess, right? Don't have the collective abilities to, like.
Eldar [01:25:11]:
To, like, to come and wage war against humans.
Anatoliy [01:25:13]:
Well, to, like. Like, when it comes to survival of the fittest, they don't have, like, they have a cap. Like. I mean, every guess how that's a cap to a certain degree, but I'm saying that, like, it's not as high as a human, like, humans cap, right?
Mike [01:25:28]:
Yeah. It's the illusion, bro. It's. It sounds like it's an illusion.
Eldar [01:25:32]:
Why is he stuck on that argument? I don't know.
Anatoliy [01:25:34]:
I mean, I'm not stuck in that argument.
Eldar [01:25:36]:
You keep saying that, like, we're somehow stronger, like, and therefore proves us larger or something.
Mike [01:25:41]:
Humans are definitely not stronger than nature.
Anatoliy [01:25:43]:
I mean, well, I definitely. I'm definitely not gonna come and bring one argument to one type of species, to everything out there.
Mike [01:25:55]:
I don't understand what you're saying.
Anatoliy [01:25:57]:
Your arguments are, like, biased when it comes to, like, you're taking nature as a whole, which is, like, I'm guessing, thousands or millions of species, and comparing it to one, which is cute. Humans. Like, I don't understand how that's a fair argument to make.
Mike [01:26:16]:
I'm not comparing. I'm just saying that I have a hunch people are not living in harmony with nature, and therefore we having these problems, because everything else in nature, they're doing good, bro. Seems like they're doing good. You know, my guess, you know, I haven't done enough research, but it seems like a lot of things in nature, the way they're designed and the way they work, it seems like it's very harmonious, you know? And we are the ones who are not trying to live in harmony, because the squirrels or the other animals that are in nature, whatever they're doing, I'm not sure if it's directly harming our lives. Right? They're not building houses. They're not doing deforestation. They're not polluting the atmosphere. They don't have climate change.
Mike [01:26:58]:
I think we're the ones who are doing that, and it's affecting everybody else. So that's. That's my, that's my thing.
Anatoliy [01:27:05]:
Yeah, I guess, like.
Eldar [01:27:10]:
But he esteems that.
Mike [01:27:12]:
Yes. That's why we have, which.
Eldar [01:27:14]:
We have this.
Mike [01:27:15]:
That's why I have this team. The fact that we can do all that.
Eldar [01:27:18]:
We can do all that. Like, we can come and like, fuck shit, fuck shit up.
Anatoliy [01:27:22]:
Like, no, no, but you keep using.
Eldar [01:27:26]:
That in your arguments to say that, like, we're greater, but, like, how does that make us greater, bro? Like, I just don't get that. Like, I don't get that. No, we don't think it comment and level shit, fuck shit up. Have that quality of air. There's plenty of cities that have no nature, no, nothing. Yeah, we clearly feel it, right? Exhaust fumes and everything else that makes us sick. Clearly. You know what I mean? Sure, we fucked a whole bunch of shit up and we evicted a whole bunch of animals from the damn area, but how is that.
Eldar [01:27:56]:
How is that stronger? Or how is that, like, yeah. Potential wise. Like, that just shows, like, yeah. Again, it goes back to your argument. It's supporting your argument that we're not in the natural order, actually. We're not harmonious with nature. And that's the fucking use case right there.
Mike [01:28:14]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [01:28:14]:
You know, so, and, like, my exam, my other example was, like, I said, the shelter thing. Fucking show me fucking homeless. Homeless animals. You know what I'm saying?
Anatoliy [01:28:24]:
So what, what, what role does, like, in your understanding of nature? What role do he, like is like, for you? Are all animals, everything compared to humans, for example, everything is equal. Or, like, what purpose do humans have? Like, if there's such a big problem that you're outlining of, like, humans, for example, destroying nature and doing all these bad things, what is humans, like, role in nature? What importance is, like, are they just as important? Are they less? Are they more important?
Eldar [01:29:10]:
I think the role is to live harmoniously.
Anatoliy [01:29:15]:
And you're saying that animals have figured out how to do so. But a humans, I'm not sure if.
Eldar [01:29:19]:
They figured it out right. I'm not sure if they just collectively sat down and said, okay, cool. Like, come on, guys, you know what I mean? I'm not sure if that took place, but they.
Anatoliy [01:29:27]:
So they do live harmoniously and humans do not live harmoniously with nature.
Eldar [01:29:33]:
Yeah. Therefore, what, I mean, we just fucking made the example, bro.
Anatoliy [01:29:40]:
No, so, therefore, that humans will have.
Eldar [01:29:43]:
Bad quality water back.
Anatoliy [01:29:45]:
No, no, no, I understand. I'm saying that, like, because we don't have that ability, humans are what? Like. Like, why don't we have that ability to live harmoniously then? What? Everything else because of ignorance?
Eldar [01:30:00]:
Maybe. Maybe because we're ignorant.
Anatoliy [01:30:01]:
Well, so why are humans ignorant and why are animals not?
Eldar [01:30:04]:
That's a very good question.
Mike [01:30:06]:
Yeah, you have to trace back.
Eldar [01:30:07]:
Very good question. Yeah. Why? You tell me. Why do you.
Anatoliy [01:30:12]:
Do you view that humans are more important than animals or.
Eldar [01:30:16]:
No.
Anatoliy [01:30:17]:
Or all beings are equal?
Eldar [01:30:18]:
I think all beings are equal. I think they're all sentient beings are very important.
Anatoliy [01:30:22]:
So when it comes to, like, if you like the human's life, it's just as important as any animal's life, probably.
Eldar [01:30:30]:
Yeah, yeah, of course. What does that tell you? Like, what was the question? What was this?
Anatoliy [01:30:37]:
No, I'm just curious as to what you think, you know.
Eldar [01:30:41]:
You're not just curious? What is this leading to? I don't understand what. No, you trying to make.
Anatoliy [01:30:45]:
I mean, I'm not trying to make any conclusions. I'm I mean, I'm just trying to have a conversation and learn.
Eldar [01:30:51]:
Yeah. You're the one who had the problem with that, with. With the statement of harmonious living.
Anatoliy [01:30:55]:
Yeah, I mean, I'm not. I I don't know everything, like, about nature and, like, about this. Right. And all I did was before was share my observation. You guys said you're definitely wrong.
Eldar [01:31:07]:
Like, you. What do you need to know to compare our war? The way we wage war on. On other humans and other animals? Land bombing, bombs, poverty, you know, wars, like famine, disease. Like, what are we talking about? Totally.
Anatoliy [01:31:23]:
Like, you know, to me, it shows, I think, that humans are. Have not been able to figure out because they're extremely complex creatures. Like, they.
Eldar [01:31:30]:
That's it. I don't understand how that's a fucking scapegoat like that. You know what I mean?
Anatoliy [01:31:34]:
Like, scapegoat.
Eldar [01:31:35]:
We're very complex, therefore we couldn't figure it out. Animals are fucking simple simpletons, and therefore they're just fucking stuck on eating hay and shit all day.
Mike [01:31:44]:
Yeah. The complexity saying that helps to.
Eldar [01:31:51]:
Argument, bro. I feel like humans are fucking are the dumb ones, bro. Like, they're the ones who are actually very simple and fucking stupid at the same time. That's what it sounds like.
Mike [01:32:00]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [01:32:01]:
You know?
Mike [01:32:03]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:32:07]:
You know, if we haven't fucking. We haven't collectively fucking figured it out.
Mike [01:32:11]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [01:32:12]:
You know what I mean? Like, yeah. Live with it, off of it. You know, we destroy shit like, that's just. I don't know how that's an achievement in your eyes.
Mike [01:32:22]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [01:32:22]:
I just don't see how that that's an achievement. I could see from a person who may be scared of nature, and it's like, yo, like, that shit hurts me. That shit hurts me. Like, I stay away from me. Like, you're rid of all this.
Anatoliy [01:32:32]:
That's not at all what I'm saying.
Eldar [01:32:34]:
Then I can see, like, okay, cool, guys. You see, like, we fuck shit up. You know what I mean? But you never display that.
Anatoliy [01:32:40]:
No, I mean, I'm definitely not saying any of that.
Eldar [01:32:43]:
No, I mean, you keep saying. You keep, like, measuring the power stick.
Anatoliy [01:32:49]:
Yeah.
Mike [01:32:49]:
Yes.
Anatoliy [01:32:50]:
Like, yeah, my mind, they're standing. What? Like, again, I could be wrong. My understanding is that, like, humans have more capabilities than animals have. But then again, like, there could always be an argument. Is that, like. Like, how are you measuring that? That is more important than that? Or, like, it just, to me, it's like a never. Like, I'm not sure how, like.
Eldar [01:33:13]:
Yeah, but you're having a hard time just seeing maybe the obvious that maybe we're seeing because we're did some scientific research here that humans are not as harmonious with nature like animals are.
Anatoliy [01:33:25]:
I'm not having a hard time understanding that.
Eldar [01:33:28]:
You're completely, completely against it.
Anatoliy [01:33:30]:
No, no, I understand. I think that.
Eldar [01:33:33]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:33:33]:
I think that animals live more harmoniously in nature than humans.
Eldar [01:33:39]:
Do you do believe that?
Anatoliy [01:33:41]:
I do believe in nature, yeah.
Eldar [01:33:44]:
Where do we live? Outside of nature?
Anatoliy [01:33:45]:
No, we also live in nature. We definitely have a harder time coexisting.
Eldar [01:33:49]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:33:50]:
Live. Living nature. But I. But, like. But my main argument from the beginning is that I believe that humans are more complex creatures.
Mike [01:34:03]:
Therefore we have. And therefore we have a harder time.
Anatoliy [01:34:06]:
Therefore we have a harder time. We have not been able to put enough pieces together as a collective.
Eldar [01:34:15]:
To.
Anatoliy [01:34:16]:
Figure out the best ways to live.
Mike [01:34:19]:
So then, based on your belief, the complexity is built in. So the world was created. Everybody had no complexities, and then we humans became. Got complexity.
Anatoliy [01:34:29]:
No, I don't believe that.
Mike [01:34:31]:
You don't believe that?
Eldar [01:34:32]:
No.
Mike [01:34:33]:
So how do we get complexity from being a human?
Eldar [01:34:36]:
Mm hmm.
Mike [01:34:39]:
So we're born with. Because we're human.
Anatoliy [01:34:41]:
Yes.
Mike [01:34:42]:
We are born complex.
Anatoliy [01:34:43]:
Yeah. Humans are more complex creatures than we are born complex. Yes.
Mike [01:34:49]:
Yes. So then human then, yes. You're agreeing that everything in nature is born in harmony, and then we are. Humans are born. We are born with this harmony, and we're born complex.
Anatoliy [01:35:03]:
I'm not sure what you're saying right now.
Mike [01:35:11]:
You understand what I'm saying?
Eldar [01:35:14]:
He's saying that he. The humans are complex by nature.
Mike [01:35:17]:
Yes. Built in.
Eldar [01:35:19]:
Built in, yes. And my question, animals are more simple and therefore.
Anatoliy [01:35:24]:
Therefore idiots other.
Eldar [01:35:26]:
Not that they're idiots, that they're harmonious.
Anatoliy [01:35:28]:
They're more simple than humans.
Eldar [01:35:31]:
Yeah, like, I don't understand that. I don't. I don't understand that.
Mike [01:35:34]:
Yeah, you see? Like, yeah, I don't understand that either.
Eldar [01:35:37]:
Yeah.
Mike [01:35:38]:
You know, because I don't understand how. How that's possible. Well, how they can. How far as you can judge if they're simpler.
Eldar [01:35:45]:
Now, I don't understand how.
Mike [01:35:46]:
But second, also, it doesn't make sense that everything in nature is simple, harmonious. Sounds like it's pretty perfect. And then humans are born, and we could the complete opposite. And we're born already with problems built in.
Eldar [01:36:01]:
Fucked up. Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:36:03]:
Why would problems built in?
Mike [01:36:05]:
Well, complexity is a problem. Or it's not. It's a good quality.
Anatoliy [01:36:08]:
No, that humans. Humans are like, as a collective, a harder, like a nut to crack.
Mike [01:36:19]:
Is that because we have 8 billion of them?
Anatoliy [01:36:22]:
Is that because what?
Mike [01:36:23]:
Because we have a lot of them, you're saying?
Anatoliy [01:36:25]:
No, because I think that they're like. I mean, I don't know how else to say it. Like, I think that they're more, like, there is more to a human than there is to an animal. I think.
Mike [01:36:36]:
How. Like, what's the like?
Anatoliy [01:36:37]:
I think that there's more different sicknesses. Like both physical and sicknesses.
Mike [01:36:42]:
So you're saying we're born with sicknesses built in?
Anatoliy [01:36:44]:
No, no, there's more, like. I guess like, I don't know if the word is susceptible or what, but, like, there is more opportunity for physical and mental sicknesses. There's more levels. There's higher levels. I mean, see, again, like, there's more creativity, more thinking. No, it's like more creativity. More like. I don't know how to measure that, but it's just like, do you think that a human is capable of more than an animal is?
Eldar [01:37:26]:
What do you mean by more, bro?
Anatoliy [01:37:28]:
Yeah. Yes, again, you.
Eldar [01:37:29]:
You keep asking me the same thing, and I cannot have a conversation with you without you having to define. What do you actually mean by that?
Anatoliy [01:37:36]:
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I don't know.
Eldar [01:37:38]:
If you say, okay, cool. Animals can't go to space, and we can. I'm gonna say, yes, they can. Humans can go to space and animals can't. If that's how you define more, then I could say, you can't find. I'll say, yeah, sure. More like my hands are tied to this argument. You know what I mean?
Mike [01:37:54]:
Yeah. My hands would be tight as well.
Eldar [01:37:57]:
Okay, cool. Then we're tied together.
Mike [01:38:00]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:38:01]:
You know. You know what I'm saying?
Mike [01:38:05]:
Like, yeah.
Eldar [01:38:07]:
I don't know how to measure, like, how to quantify someone.
Mike [01:38:09]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:38:09]:
You know what I mean? Like if you said, okay, cool. Let's define a human. If you took the human, for example, I'm trying to picture it from zero. Mm hmm. And you define this little kid. A hundred. Right. He's a baby right now.
Eldar [01:38:23]:
And when the, you know, an actualized human is at 100, he's met this criteria. Ability to fend for themselves and have basic needs. Right. Not perish.
Mike [01:38:34]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:38:34]:
You know what I'm saying? Not get sick and die, you know, from the weather, from the elements. Level ten, level 20 is reasonable. Has the ability to reason through and not get hurt and all this other shit. Okay. And then the last one is, I don't know, love. Let's just say he's. Has the ability to love, and he met that. That's an actualized human that reached his potential.
Eldar [01:38:59]:
You take a horse, okay? A horse has to eat. Hey, you know what I mean? To fend for itself and not get hungry. You know what I'm saying? Have its own fucking.
Mike [01:39:09]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:39:10]:
Way to defend itself. Whatever. The way it defends itself. I don't know what I mean. Like, hurt all the horses. I don't know how to make that up. And then the last one, it's like, I don't know, give birth to another horse to continue the generation. And that's the, that's its threshold.
Eldar [01:39:27]:
And then if you weigh against those and say, okay, this human got there and this horse got there, cool. They both actualized within their capacities of being a horse and a human. A human didn't reach and died before the fucking shit. Got hungry, got disease and died, didn't actualize himself, committed suicide. But the horse lived on and did what it's supposed to do. Yeah, you can see the difference. That's how I would see it. The potential, the capacity.
Eldar [01:39:54]:
I hope you cannot argue that.
Anatoliy [01:39:55]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:39:55]:
Because this is clear as it gets. The way you want to put us in some kind of weird ass more box. I don't know how. I don't know how to have a conversation.
Anatoliy [01:40:03]:
Maybe I'm wrong about that. I mean, that I'm not even sure.
Eldar [01:40:06]:
What you're talking about. That's the thing. Like, more more things. Like things. That's what you want to argue you know what I mean? Like, more human things. Yeah, humans can definitely do human things.
Mike [01:40:20]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:40:20]:
And I'm pretty sure horses cannot do.
Mike [01:40:22]:
Human things, Mike, but we also can do horse things.
Eldar [01:40:25]:
Oh, wow. Thank you, Mike.
Mike [01:40:27]:
Yeah, I got you.
Eldar [01:40:28]:
Yeah. Wow, that's a good one. I didn't think about it that way, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like, how are we comparing this? I don't understand. But we can fuck the horse up, that's for sure.
Mike [01:40:41]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [01:40:42]:
Makes us better or bigger, stronger.
Mike [01:40:45]:
Mm hmm.
Eldar [01:40:45]:
You know?
Mike [01:40:46]:
Yeah. He likes to feel like he's on top of the food chain, though.
Eldar [01:40:52]:
I guess. Let's give them something, bro.
Anatoliy [01:40:55]:
I mean, sure, we can extract that. Yes. Like, I'm an idiot, you know, like, I'm just saying stupid shit.
Eldar [01:41:01]:
I still don't understand what's going on with this more thing. You know what I mean? You keep going.
Anatoliy [01:41:05]:
Yeah, yeah, I guess.
Eldar [01:41:07]:
Like, do you think that people, humans could do more than animals yet? Like I said, what?
Anatoliy [01:41:13]:
Yeah, I guess nothing.
Eldar [01:41:15]:
Okay, cool. Then the podcast is over. Yeah, I mean, roll over.
Anatoliy [01:41:21]:
What do you mean, roll over? You're not willing to have a. I'm having a conversation.
Eldar [01:41:25]:
You're not answering the question. Answer the question in regards to what? More what?
Anatoliy [01:41:30]:
Yeah, I guess inherently we. What? What I guess I'm learning is that inherently we cannot compare animals to humans, and when it comes to their. Because they're capable of different things.
Eldar [01:41:42]:
Yes. Thank you.
Anatoliy [01:41:44]:
They have different.
Eldar [01:41:45]:
How can you compare the two? Yeah, like, I just. It's incomparable. Well, can you compare a horse to a fucking human? Like, and say, yeah, we can fuck shit up? Like, you know, we don't know, maybe that fucking horse fucks shit up on. In the horse world. You know what I mean? Like, maybe a horse, you know, shit, I don't know. Run fast. You know, like, eat a lot of hay. You know, shit, you know, within the realm of a horse, would you.
Anatoliy [01:42:17]:
Would you trade your life to be a horse again?
Eldar [01:42:22]:
You're asking me a question? Like, where you leading this to?
Anatoliy [01:42:26]:
No, I'm just asking, what would you.
Eldar [01:42:27]:
Trade my life right now to treat you, but also, like, what's wrong with you? What are you talking about, bro? Like, what are you talking about? Well, no, what is that gonna give you? I don't understand.
Anatoliy [01:42:38]:
I'm just. I'm curious.
Eldar [01:42:40]:
What do me. You're just curious? You asking me a fucking very specific question whether or not I want to be a horse?
Anatoliy [01:42:45]:
Yeah, like, would you. Would you want to be an animal, for example?
Eldar [01:42:48]:
For what? I'm a fucking human. Why would I be a fucking animal if I'm a human? I'm experiencing this right now. Why would I, in order, if my existence was very bad, you know what I mean? Like, as a human, I'll probably say, yeah, like, maybe I'll fucking horse around next life. What does that give you, bro?
Anatoliy [01:43:07]:
Like, no, no, I'm just saying doubt. Like, what are you trying to. I'm not trying to prove anything.
Mike [01:43:13]:
Just trying to prove. It's like.
Eldar [01:43:14]:
No, but when you curious about something, like, when you curious about something, we have some kind of a lead.
Anatoliy [01:43:18]:
Yeah.
Mike [01:43:19]:
He wants to prove that you don't want to be a horse, that your human is better. And he wants to answer that question knowing what exactly what a horse's life looks like.
Eldar [01:43:28]:
You know what I'm saying? I don't know how horse's life looks like. Oh, but if you told me that the horses is actualized and like, it's fucking, like, beyond enlightened and all that shit, maybe I would. But you can't tell me that.
Mike [01:43:40]:
But we never know.
Anatoliy [01:43:41]:
But you are saying that. No, but I'm not saying that. That, I don't know. Harmonious. Right?
Mike [01:43:47]:
Yeah, but. But doesn't mean that people cannot.
Anatoliy [01:43:50]:
Yeah, we also, right now, they are animals are living hormones. You said this, right?
Mike [01:43:54]:
In nature, that nature.
Eldar [01:43:55]:
Yes, they are.
Anatoliy [01:43:56]:
They are. So why would you not want to be an animal and live harmoniously already in an existence?
Mike [01:44:01]:
Because I'm already living this existence. No, I know.
Eldar [01:44:05]:
Not living harmoniously with his life. You know, you would have to prove that he's unhappy and that's his subjective experience. How would you do that?
Anatoliy [01:44:16]:
No, I mean, I definitely would not be able to.
Eldar [01:44:18]:
There you go. You know?
Anatoliy [01:44:19]:
Yeah, no, I have no problem when it comes to different animals, like, living to whatever capabilities that they have.
Eldar [01:44:27]:
Clearly, like, not.
Anatoliy [01:44:28]:
They have different lives.
Eldar [01:44:29]:
We had an argument there.
Anatoliy [01:44:31]:
Yeah, clearly there's different things, I guess. Again, and I could be wrong about it, I was judging it, that humans, like, fuck shit up, like, do more and that, like, are capable of more, you know, when it comes to, like, education and, like, creating different, like, I don't know, books and readings and, like, creativity. They're different. Art and, like, music and, like, they're able to, like, I don't know, like, develop technology and do that kind of stuff, I was judging that as, like, they have more capacity than a horse can.
Eldar [01:45:05]:
So that was my human capacity. Right?
Anatoliy [01:45:08]:
More human capacity.
Eldar [01:45:09]:
Yeah, but overall, horse has a capacity too, right?
Anatoliy [01:45:12]:
Yes, but my argument is that overall, I think that humans have more capacity than horses. That's all I was saying. Because of these different things.
Eldar [01:45:21]:
And you guys are saying, no, totally. We're not saying no. We're saying that. How can you compare the fucking two? Human has a human capacity and horse has a horse capacity.
Anatoliy [01:45:30]:
100%. I was never arguing that.
Eldar [01:45:33]:
Unless you tell me that a human could be a horse.
Anatoliy [01:45:35]:
I was never arguing that.
Eldar [01:45:37]:
If you say, yeah, hey, I was never arguing. They can do all that. Plus we can also just become a horse, then I could look, I. Cool.
Anatoliy [01:45:46]:
I was never arguing that other.
Eldar [01:45:47]:
You know what I'm saying? Then that's.
Anatoliy [01:45:49]:
When was I arguing? You know, when, when was I arguing that?
Eldar [01:45:52]:
But you keep, you keep bringing that.
Anatoliy [01:45:54]:
I'm talking about. I said, I said from the beginning that I think that humans can do more. And then you, you said that, like, how are you judging more? How are you judging these things? Those are my judgment of the things.
Eldar [01:46:05]:
I told you that describing it like this in regards to things, I'd probably agree with you. You know what I'm saying? I agree with you. Just things. Sure, sure. Fucking create a Dyson vacuum. A horse can't. You know what I mean? That's fucking obvious.
Anatoliy [01:46:21]:
Yes, that's what I was saying. That humans have more capacity.
Eldar [01:46:25]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:46:26]:
Than a horse.
Eldar [01:46:27]:
Like, again, using the work capacity.
Anatoliy [01:46:34]:
When in comparison to each other, they. I think that they have more capacity. I'm not comparing them the highest human to the highest force and percentage wise, seeing like that. No.
Eldar [01:46:47]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:46:47]:
I never made that comparison.
Eldar [01:46:49]:
Yeah. No, of course you didn't, because you keep leading us astray and we don't understand what you're saying. I had to extract that in order to kind of get on the same page at least a little bit to understand where you come from.
Anatoliy [01:47:03]:
That's all I'm saying, is that, like, humans can do all these different things. Like. Yes, they are things, right? They can create these readings, they can make plays. They can do all these different things. Which took my understanding of it is that is more capacity like that. Humans have more capacity than animals. Right? That's just my understanding of it. Could I be wrong about that?
Eldar [01:47:32]:
Sure.
Anatoliy [01:47:33]:
Yeah. Like, I think that you guys were disagreeing with me on that the whole time. And that that's what I was confused about. That's why I'm trying to figure out.
Eldar [01:47:42]:
How, like, you wanted the horse can make a Dyson vacuum.
Anatoliy [01:47:51]:
I mean, like, I was having a hard time understanding what. What your argument was.
Mike [01:47:55]:
You understand now?
Anatoliy [01:48:01]:
Just that. I understand that. That, uh, like, your argument was that. And animals live more harmoniously in nature. Right?
Mike [01:48:09]:
That was part of it, but not, not only that.
Anatoliy [01:48:12]:
So what is your argument?
Mike [01:48:14]:
No, the, the word more incapacity. We have to have a scale that we can both.
Eldar [01:48:19]:
We can. Yeah.
Mike [01:48:21]:
Agree upon.
Anatoliy [01:48:22]:
Yeah. Me.
Mike [01:48:22]:
Yeah, that's the, that's the problem. That's the big problem that we don't. We're. You using, you're throwing in, like, you're saying, oh, well, he's a better person, he has more things. Versus, oh, he's a worse person, he has less things. It's like we're not comparing. What are those things? First of all, what are those things? Value. Who gives a fuck about a Dyson vacuum? If a person cannot be nice to each other, but.
Mike [01:48:44]:
Or wage war, we can create vacuums. We can create war. So that's also capacity. You know, horses.
Anatoliy [01:48:53]:
I don't understand how you're. How that's proving capacity. Like, I don't understand what point you're trying to make right now. Like, it doesn't.
Mike [01:49:03]:
You're saying that humans or have more capacity because they can do more things. I'm saying that those things just because new them things, they don't. Things don't have value.
Anatoliy [01:49:15]:
Okay.
Mike [01:49:16]:
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Anatoliy [01:49:18]:
So how does that have anything to do with capacity?
Mike [01:49:21]:
Because that capacity is worthless on a scale of things that actually have value. But we would have to define what's capacity and we have to define what's value.
Eldar [01:49:32]:
Yeah. He would have to define to us how he's using the word capacity.
Anatoliy [01:49:35]:
Well, I just explained it, like.
Eldar [01:49:38]:
Oh. In those terms. We have no disagreement here.
Mike [01:49:40]:
Yeah. We agree with you that, yeah, humans.
Eldar [01:49:42]:
Can do more things.
Mike [01:49:43]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:49:43]:
I think that animals can love. Humans can love. I think animals can. And animals can be scared. Humans can be scared.
Eldar [01:49:54]:
Reproduce.
Anatoliy [01:49:54]:
Yeah. Both can reproduce. Right.
Eldar [01:49:56]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:49:57]:
Like, I mean, I just can't. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But I do think that humans, like, live in a more advanced civilization. Right. More like they can do technological things. They can do creative like, things.
Anatoliy [01:50:12]:
They can do art. They can do music. They can do. They can develop science. They can, like, develop things in what?
Mike [01:50:20]:
Develop science.
Anatoliy [01:50:21]:
Like. Yeah. Learn more sciences or, like, they can create more things. They can manufacture. They can do like that. That's my understanding of, like, human. Because of that, when humans, one human definitely cannot do all of them.
Mike [01:50:38]:
Do you think that can create something that's more perfect than what already exists in nature?
Anatoliy [01:50:51]:
See, like, you are, like, I can't answer the question that you're asking because you're asking me a bias.
Eldar [01:50:56]:
The question why Dyson vacuum is not enough for you.
Anatoliy [01:51:00]:
You're asking me like you, like, you're phrasing a question in an incorrect way.
Mike [01:51:06]:
How would you like me to phrase it?
Anatoliy [01:51:08]:
I don't know. I don't know what you're trying to ask.
Mike [01:51:10]:
Oh, you know, other.
Anatoliy [01:51:12]:
Yes or no?
Eldar [01:51:12]:
No, I understand this question.
Anatoliy [01:51:14]:
And is it a vet? Like, how can you even ask that question?
Eldar [01:51:18]:
Why can't he ask you? I don't.
Anatoliy [01:51:19]:
Can you create something more?
Mike [01:51:21]:
Can human perfect?
Anatoliy [01:51:24]:
So, like, he's. He's asking me a question, but he's already making a judgment call that something is perfect.
Eldar [01:51:29]:
Well, then you have to ask him what does he mean by perfect?
Anatoliy [01:51:31]:
That's what I'm saying is I like, so what, we can't.
Eldar [01:51:33]:
You can ask the question. You just ask for. It's like saying, I'm trying.
Anatoliy [01:51:37]:
Is there a number higher? Is there a number. Is there a number higher than infinity? And then I just give you a loop of like the next 2 million hour of the word infinity. Like that. Like, it's just like it, like, okay.
Mike [01:51:52]:
So how would you like me to phrase the question since, you know, well.
Anatoliy [01:51:54]:
If you ask me, can. Can humans create something that is better than what is out in nature?
Mike [01:51:59]:
Yeah, sure. Okay.
Anatoliy [01:52:01]:
I mean, I'm not sure. Right. And I don't think anybody is right. Right. Like, do we definitely know whether humans one day have the capabilities to create something, a better sustainable model than nature? And then it's like, what is the definition of a sustainable model? Like the ability to, what, withstand certain weathers or space activity or earthquakes, volcanoes? What's the measure then? Right. I guess we'd have to discuss those things. And can I definitely say that humans can't create something that's more sustainable than nature right now? Probably no. Nature has been around for a very long time and they have stuff that have worked a certain way for a very long time.
Anatoliy [01:52:54]:
But can I definitely say that humans don't have the ability to one day do this? Like, I mean, I'm not sure. Right. Is that inaccurate?
Eldar [01:53:06]:
Well, what about the time for AI?
Mike [01:53:10]:
About the who?
Eldar [01:53:11]:
The AI.
Mike [01:53:12]:
The AI.
Eldar [01:53:13]:
Can that create. Well, if humans created that.
Mike [01:53:16]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:53:16]:
Can create that. Right? What is it? What is its purpose? Right.
Mike [01:53:21]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:53:23]:
Then what is its capacity?
Mike [01:53:29]:
Yeah, it's a good question.
Eldar [01:53:34]:
But then again, you have to ask yourself whether or not it's still. It probably will supersedes humans, most humans. Right? Sure. But on the core level, I don't think it touches the fucking, the creation, you know? But don't worry, tomorrow you have an option to be a horse if you don't like this existence.
Mike [01:54:09]:
All right, as long as I have a choice.
Anatoliy [01:54:11]:
Yeah, I mean, like, I just don't understand, like, what I was saying that was like, so, like, baffling the general.
Eldar [01:54:18]:
Terms that you were using by comparison without explaining to us. Just kept putting us in a blender, that's all. Yeah, but you also, as soon as I elaborated and explained to you. Okay, cool. If we're gonna explain the capacities of each individual thing, a being, in this case an animal, a horse, in this case an animal human, you know, then you clearly like, no, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about things. You have no argument here. I agree with you, bro.
Eldar [01:54:44]:
You know what I mean? The horses did not create.
Anatoliy [01:54:47]:
What were you under the impression that I was trying to say?
Eldar [01:54:51]:
I'm glad that you were stating the obvious.
Mike [01:54:52]:
If you. If that was your whole argument.
Anatoliy [01:54:54]:
Yeah, then, yeah, that's no problem saying that. Like, during the whole time, what were you on an impression? I was trying to stay.
Eldar [01:55:01]:
I was trying to put you more towards the fact that maybe you somehow thought that a human actualizes more than a horse. And I'm glad you didn't.
Anatoliy [01:55:11]:
I mean, come on.
Eldar [01:55:14]:
Oh, you said absolutely nothing with so many words and got me so confused.
Anatoliy [01:55:18]:
I mean, you are making arguments that, like, did not make like that to me. Like, don't make sense.
Eldar [01:55:27]:
I'm glad we got to a place where we now understand what it was. I had very specific things and I used very simple words. I said, mike mentioned the shit about harmony and I said, yeah, look, one of the examples that we talked about, humans haven't figured out the shelter shit. Animals can build their own shit. We cannot. And look at our homelessness, look at the poverty. You know what I'm saying? You didn't like that argument.
Anatoliy [01:55:50]:
It's not that I didn't like it. To me, it's not a fair comparison.
Eldar [01:55:54]:
Okay, fine, but it's a fact. I don't care about whether or not you like it, whether or not it's fair or not fair. It is a fact. You know what I'm saying? And if that's a fact, what does that tell me? What does that tell you? You know, humans are perishing with the shit because of the fact that they haven't figured out how to sustain the whole, the whole society. Maybe one day they will figure out that. That question. Right. Sustainable living.
Eldar [01:56:22]:
But at this moment. I mean, the world continues to deteriorate, to deteriorate and suffer from that specific.
Mike [01:56:29]:
Thing, the human condition.
Eldar [01:56:30]:
The human condition, which is not the same as when it comes to comparing to animals.
Mike [01:56:34]:
Yeah.
Eldar [01:56:35]:
You know what I mean? Like I said, I don't see squirrels lining up at the fucking Salvation army, you know, begging for fucking clothes to wear cold cuts. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I don't know. You don't like the facts, then you don't like the fact.
Anatoliy [01:56:52]:
I mean, it's not that I don't like.
Eldar [01:56:55]:
And then you said that you don't even believe me because you think that I have to do some kind of scientific research and find some studies. Whether or not this is the case in the matter, whether or not animals do build their own shelters and whether or not they are not hungry.
Anatoliy [01:57:08]:
No, I don't think. I don't think it.
Eldar [01:57:10]:
Deduce that yourself.
Anatoliy [01:57:11]:
I don't think it's saying that. I don't think it's a fair argument. Not that I don't like it or that I don't think it's true or something like that. I don't think it's a fair comparison that animals can build shelter and every single human cannot build shelter because it's not like. Like it's not in our upbringing to learn how to. Every single human does not need to build every house. Every single squirrel does need to know how to build a home. And I don't think it's a question of whether humans understand.
Anatoliy [01:57:44]:
Humans understand.
Eldar [01:57:45]:
How are you putting all those people under the bus, though?
Anatoliy [01:57:48]:
Humans understand very well how to build homes. They prove it every single day by all the real estate that they developed, build and sell every day. Right. So they're not, like, figuring out, oh, we don't know how to build houses, therefore people are homeless. There. There's. There's different things. Is what I'm saying at odds here? Not the question of not knowing how to build homes or not.
Eldar [01:58:13]:
Now imagine if all people knew how to build homes, right?
Anatoliy [01:58:20]:
Okay. Then there would be much less developments and different other things.
Eldar [01:58:26]:
Or would there be homelessness? I argue a very specific thing. It's very basic. I don't know why you keep fucking not seeing it.
Anatoliy [01:58:35]:
I mean, I don't know why you don't see what. What I'm saying.
Eldar [01:58:37]:
You said, hey, squirrels are, you know, the way they're being brought up. They know how to make their own houses. Sure.
Anatoliy [01:58:44]:
Why?
Eldar [01:58:47]:
By design, bro.
Anatoliy [01:58:48]:
No, because they need to.
Eldar [01:58:50]:
How do you know that they need to if it's by design. It's already pre programmed in them because.
Anatoliy [01:58:54]:
There'S a there there. They don't have the same, like, services. Right? Like.
Eldar [01:59:02]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [01:59:03]:
Market.
Eldar [01:59:04]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [01:59:04]:
They have not created a free market.
Eldar [01:59:06]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [01:59:07]:
If they create a free market, maybe there'll be one squirrels who are like, yo, we're really good at collecting nuts.
Eldar [01:59:12]:
Okay.
Anatoliy [01:59:12]:
You're really good at building homes.
Eldar [01:59:14]:
Okay?
Anatoliy [01:59:14]:
Right?
Eldar [01:59:15]:
And then once girls like y'all today, I'm not. I'm not collecting nuts. I'm not building shit.
Anatoliy [01:59:19]:
Yeah, yeah.
Eldar [01:59:19]:
I'm not doing shit. And then the shit, the whole. The whole system falls apart. Right? And we homeless squirrels. Nature and harmony. That's what we're talking about. You just described a very specific thing and said, hey, guys, the reason why we don't have the ability to have our own shelters for everybody, it's not because we can't make it. It's because we introduced this thing called trading.
Eldar [01:59:40]:
You're gonna build me my house, and I'm gonna give you my tomatoes.
Mike [01:59:42]:
Yeah. Yeah.
Eldar [01:59:45]:
Harmonious.
Anatoliy [01:59:47]:
What's it.
Eldar [01:59:49]:
Basic needs, bro. Squirrels. Figure that one out. Humans are still on their way. I think one day they would, and they will figure that part out. But we're not gonna have homelessness and fucking poverty.
Mike [02:00:03]:
I don't know if.
Anatoliy [02:00:04]:
Yeah, but I'm saying that I don't know if that's through the methods of learning how to build your own homes. I think that's through the methods of, like, society mentally evolving.
Eldar [02:00:12]:
Well, they're gonna have to because you're saying that because we're more complex. We can't. We're not. We're not gonna go the route of building our own shelter. Empowering people through that.
Anatoliy [02:00:19]:
We're gonna be.
Eldar [02:00:20]:
We're gonna be empowering them to trade, learning how to trade properly. Right.
Anatoliy [02:00:23]:
Well, like, the world is working on figuring itself out. It has not so. So far when it comes to human shelter.
Eldar [02:00:32]:
Shelter. Correct. Can we. Can we just fucking take one fucking argument? I'm just took one argument. Shelter.
Mike [02:00:41]:
Yeah.
Anatoliy [02:00:43]:
I mean, it's like the answer through Mike's thing. It's not a. I mean, but the.
Eldar [02:00:47]:
Fact of the facts. Totally.
Anatoliy [02:00:48]:
It's not a problem. Yeah, but it's not a problem of going to the gym. It's a mental problem. Right.
Eldar [02:00:54]:
Do you agree with that, Mike? I'm asking you one thing.
Anatoliy [02:00:58]:
Do we have a shelter problem or do we have a mental problem?
Mike [02:01:04]:
Do we have a shelter problem or a mental problem?
Eldar [02:01:06]:
Yes.
Mike [02:01:09]:
Yeah, I think we have both, but I don't really understand like, how to answer that question. I don't understand.
Anatoliy [02:01:16]:
What do you mean? You said that the person that's going to the gym.
Mike [02:01:19]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [02:01:19]:
Because they think that they're, like. Like they're. They. Like they're physically unfit.
Mike [02:01:24]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [02:01:24]:
But they're solving the issue solved because, like. Like, the reason that they're that place to be with. Because they're stupid.
Mike [02:01:31]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [02:01:32]:
Right.
Mike [02:01:32]:
Mm hmm.
Anatoliy [02:01:33]:
So is it. Is it not the same argument applies to everybody in the world having shelter? Sure. It's not.
Eldar [02:01:40]:
And squirrels are not suffering from the same supply as humans.
Anatoliy [02:01:42]:
Yes or no?
Mike [02:01:44]:
I think. I'm not sure, but I guess it could be part of it being.
Eldar [02:01:50]:
Yeah.
Mike [02:01:50]:
I don't get it. Not being able to build your own shelter.
Anatoliy [02:01:54]:
No.
Mike [02:01:54]:
Going human.
Anatoliy [02:01:55]:
No, I'm saying that humans don't have, like, they don't know. Not how to build shelter.
Eldar [02:02:00]:
Right.
Mike [02:02:01]:
They don't know how to build shelter. They don't know how to build issues.
Anatoliy [02:02:06]:
That humans are stupid. Right. That's why people don't have shelter.
Mike [02:02:17]:
Okay.
Anatoliy [02:02:17]:
Right.
Mike [02:02:19]:
I don't even know, like.
Anatoliy [02:02:20]:
Yeah.
Eldar [02:02:20]:
Okay.
Mike [02:02:21]:
I mean, I don't understand so much.
Eldar [02:02:22]:
The question I can answer for you. What do you want?
Anatoliy [02:02:26]:
We don't have a shelter problem. We have a stupidity problem.
Eldar [02:02:29]:
Right. Whoa, whoa. Okay. Sure. But are the facts of the facts or no.
Anatoliy [02:02:35]:
That people don't have shelter? 100%.
Eldar [02:02:37]:
Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, cool. In comparison to animals.
Anatoliy [02:02:41]:
Yeah.
Eldar [02:02:43]:
You see? Very simple. Yeah.
Anatoliy [02:02:46]:
But I'm saying problem at the core.
Eldar [02:02:48]:
Is not the problem. I'm saying right now we're comparing about the results. This is what I brought to the argument. Right. The result is that they. They do their own shit and they don't have homelessness. Humans don't. They.
Eldar [02:03:00]:
They fucked up somewhere. I don't know where.
Anatoliy [02:03:02]:
Yeah.
Eldar [02:03:02]:
It could be a mental health problem. It could be a trading problem. Capitalism.
Anatoliy [02:03:06]:
Yeah. Now, if you told me that there's people talking about the street and. And we don't have any idea how to house these individuals.
Eldar [02:03:12]:
We're talking about harmony and we're talking about just one comparison of the fact that if we part of nature as humans, right. We have people on the streets, bro, dying from hunger and not having a shelter. Poverty. Okay. Animals figured that part out. Right? Like you said. I don't think they figured it out. They were born with this shit.
Eldar [02:03:37]:
Right? Yeah. Who's living more harmoniously? Right. Humans are still yet to find out. They haven't done that yet, you know? And when they do, maybe we don't have to bring I don't have to bring that argument anymore. But right now, people are suffering and the animals are not the facts of the facts, bro.
Anatoliy [02:03:57]:
Okay.
Eldar [02:03:58]:
How they got there, it's a different.
Anatoliy [02:04:00]:
No, I mean, I definitely can argue.
Eldar [02:04:01]:
That you could bring a thousand. I told you you could bring a thousand. What's the name? Reasons how they got there. Sure. They got there. There's a reason why the motherfuckers is homeless. There's a reason why kids in Africa Star. There is a reason.
Eldar [02:04:13]:
Yeah, you know what? There's definitely a reason somewhere. Capitalism, fucking thieves and all this other shit, you know, that's happening. But you cannot bring me example unless you bring me example that people. People are, you know, destroying nature. And that's why the animals are homeless and don't have places to. To live. You can't bring me an example where. Where animals, wolves, you know, whoever, don't have that, where they can't create their own shelter for themselves.
Eldar [02:04:41]:
You cannot. If you do, please do educate me. And then, you know, I can bring that as an example that there are animals out there that are homeless and in poverty.
Anatoliy [02:04:52]:
No, I mean. I mean, I don't have an argument.
Eldar [02:04:55]:
That's it. You know, facts of the facts, you know? And I don't know how we got here through fucking all this harmony shit. Harmonious shit that you gave us, Mike. But, yeah, humans can build homes. They can't. Okay? Just. You can't.
Mike [02:05:15]:
I can.
Eldar [02:05:16]:
Some human out there can. And we'll build your home. Yes, but you can. You know what I'm saying? You can't.
Mike [02:05:21]:
Yeah.
Eldar [02:05:22]:
Yeah. Can you think one squirrel can pay another scroll nuts for them to build a house? Possible. All right, final thoughts then we're going home. Or. Try to hear you, Mike. Final thoughts.
Mike [02:05:41]:
I don't even know.
Eldar [02:05:43]:
Me too. Tony. Final thoughts. Before we wrap up.
62. Harmony and Complexity: Can Humans Coexist with Nature?
Mar 24, 2023•2 hr 6 min•Ep. 62
Episode description
Are animals living harmoniously and humans aren't?
In this thought-provoking episode of "Dennis Rox," hosts Eldar and Mike are joined by guest Anatoliy to explore humanity's convoluted relationship with nature. The conversation kicks off with Mike's strong belief that humans fail to live harmoniously with nature, which is inherently balanced. Eldar delves deep into the notion that all beings are equal, yet humans have disproportionately harmed the environment, affecting their own and other beings' existence. Anatoliy raises a pivotal question: why do humans struggle to coexist peacefully with nature, and is ignorance the root cause?
The discussion weaves through themes of human complexity, societal structures, and sustainable living. Eldar and Anatoliy debate whether humanity's intricate nature hinders or enhances their capacity for harmonious living. They analyze the roles of resilience and accountability, noting how personal goals often become distorted under societal pressures. The episode concludes with a critical examination of the balance between human potential and limitations, challenging listeners to reconsider their own relationship with the natural world.
Transcript
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