37. Correcting False Perceptions: Achieving True Emotional Liberation and Peace

Dennis [00:00:00]:
On this week's episode.

Toly [00:00:01]:
And then you have particular emotions backed by your current ways of logic. And then you live out things that are not necessarily correct that just continue to pile on and create more false perceptions.

Eldar [00:00:11]:
Know that you have these things in you living today that are gonna. They're gonna solicit the wrong emotion, then the emotion is gonna beat you up.

Katherine [00:00:18]:
So ignorance is. That goes back to. I guess ignorance is bliss. It's true. You know, once. Once you're a bit more aware and you keep on stumbling on the same thing, it just pushes you to really want to. Really want to improve it.

Tommy [00:00:29]:
But this guy who is three times my weight, follows me down there, he's drunk and he starts grabbing me by the arm. Sorry, sorry.

Toly [00:00:38]:
I don't.

Tommy [00:00:38]:
I didn't mean to do that. But he was cornering me and I felt threatened. But you know, it's kind of.

Mike [00:00:42]:
You realize that you're actually crazier than him.

Tommy [00:00:45]:
You're not like, hey, well, when did your schizophrenia begin?

Eldar [00:00:57]:
Alright, so today's topic is. The question at hand is how to identify your wrong perceptions to have proper emotions. Right. I guess we make an assumption that we have improper emotions that are stemming from wrong perceptions. Right. And obviously with the goal to live in more correct realities. Right. An example on the board is Sheriff's perception that totally hates him.

Eldar [00:01:20]:
It's a personal example. We can definitely talk about it. But just to, you know, give you a background. There's a kid on the basketball court, his name is Sheriff. You know, and I also like that.

Mike [00:01:31]:
You say he's a kid because even though he's like at least 10 years older than us. Yes, he is a kid.

Eldar [00:01:35]:
Yes, yes, that's valid. Exactly. Well, I mean, look, mentally. Okay, yeah, that's fine. Yeah. So Sheriff comes to Tolle one day without a thing. You guys didn't even say hi to each other yet, right? He comes to, comes to you and goes, why do you hate me? Yeah, you know, and you were kind of like, oh, what the hell.

Toly [00:01:56]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:01:56]:
Right. So let's, I guess Sheriff, the guy.

Tommy [00:01:58]:
Oh, it's the other way around.

Eldar [00:01:59]:
Oh yeah, you know him? Yeah, that's right. He did. Come here. So Sheriff comes to Tony in the gym and goes, why do you hate me? Just like that, you know? Okay, so totally. Then it wasn't like a joke.

Mike [00:02:10]:
No, to.

Toly [00:02:11]:
Aren't they best buddies?

Eldar [00:02:13]:
They were, but then something happened. Right.

Toly [00:02:15]:
Oh man, you again. You put the logic police on someone else.

Mike [00:02:20]:
Put the logic.

Toly [00:02:23]:
Yeah, he might need your help to how to maneuver out of those conversations.

Eldar [00:02:29]:
Yeah, yeah. You know, so. Yeah. So Tolle then came up with this topic or the question to the topic, because he finds it that a lot of people, right. They go into. They quickly summon their emotions to situations and stuff. Right. Without actually knowing where they came from and why are they coming about in the first place.

Eldar [00:02:50]:
Right. So he wants to question and see how to identify your own perceptions in order to have proper emotions to those perceptions. Right? Yeah. Can you expand on that a little bit more? Because Tom seems puzzled a little bit by the looks of it.

Tommy [00:03:03]:
So there was this kid who thought. Who, Who. Who thought you hated him.

Toly [00:03:08]:
Yeah, yeah.

Tommy [00:03:10]:
Or he still thinks.

Toly [00:03:13]:
I don't think he still thinks, but. But yeah, I'm not sure if he really thought that I hated him or he was just doing like. Like puppy dog things.

Mike [00:03:22]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:03:23]:
You know, like, why am I hated? You know? Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. So what happened was we were playing basketball, right? And he was playing against us. And we were, of course, watching him, like laundry.

Eldar [00:03:40]:
Right. And as always.

Toly [00:03:43]:
As always.

Tommy [00:03:44]:
Did you just get him? Did you just force him to commit a lie?

Toly [00:03:48]:
Right. And he was having, like, a bad attitude that day. Right. I would say. Right. Like, in general, he was just having a bad attitude. But for context, he's on our basketball team, like, when we play, like, in the league, like, in our actual, like, league. Right.

Toly [00:04:05]:
And we lost a player on our team, and there was two players available. Him and then another player who's also on our team. And because he was having a bad attitude that day, I like the winning team. If they lose a player, they can select anyone that they want. So I chose the other player that was. That's still also on our team.

Eldar [00:04:27]:
Who's also a friend.

Toly [00:04:28]:
Who's also our friend. Yeah. And then. And. And then the. The player that was having the bad attitude, which here is Sheriff. He got upset.

Tommy [00:04:37]:
So he was on your team. I thought I heard that he was playing against you.

Toly [00:04:41]:
He was. He was. I was saying that we. We lost a player. So we had four players on our team. One dropped, so now we need to pick up a fourth. His team lost.

Tommy [00:04:51]:
Take it from.

Toly [00:04:52]:
Yeah. So now we can select from anyone who's lost or waiting. Right. And we decided to. And there was two people that we wanted to select from, and we chose the other one, so not him. And then he got upset and he threw a fit. He asked to be removed from the chat.

Eldar [00:05:12]:
Really?

Toly [00:05:12]:
Like our chat? Yeah.

Eldar [00:05:14]:
Which Mike did.

Toly [00:05:15]:
Yeah. Yeah. Which Mike. Before you continue conversation, it would be.

Mike [00:05:19]:
Great if you Remember?

Toly [00:05:19]:
Do you remember this?

Mike [00:05:20]:
Just remember reminding me.

Eldar [00:05:22]:
Remember we were playing basketball at the rec?

Toly [00:05:23]:
This must have been seven, eight years ago, and we had him on the team, and then mid game, he just left.

Mike [00:05:30]:
Yeah. He walks off.

Eldar [00:05:32]:
Yo, Tom, what are you doing?

Toly [00:05:33]:
I gotta go.

Tommy [00:05:35]:
Still denying that. I still remember that. I don't think it's relevant.

Toly [00:05:41]:
So. So. So, yeah. So immediately he, like, he wants to be removed from the chat. Mike's like, okay, no problem. After he says, why do you hate me?

Eldar [00:05:49]:
Before.

Toly [00:05:50]:
Before. Before. Right. And then, like, he plays this kind of, like, ignore thing. Like. Like, the next day we see each other. Like, he's not talking to me, I'm not talking to him. Like, he just playing this, like, ignore a card.

Toly [00:06:01]:
When typically, he's like, a social butterfly, right? Like, he walks around, says hi to everybody, like, tells you useless facts, like I do. Right. And. Yeah, right. So then the next day, or I don't remember if it was the next day or. Or. Or. Or, like, the end of that day, he asked me, like, why?

Eldar [00:06:22]:
Why?

Toly [00:06:23]:
Why do I hate him? And then, like, he took the whole situation of him not being selected that one day as that means that we don't want him on our team anymore. Right? So it's like. So I started to, like, think about that, but it's like. It's deeper now in the sense is that, like, that didn't just come from there. I think that happens to some of us in. In a general where we have a particular emotional response to something, and it's like a very subconscious, fast, like, response. And then that stems to you. What's it called for to you? Living in a particular perception that is not real and, like, is not good.

Toly [00:07:07]:
Right. So, like, he had that emotional outburst, asked to be, like, removed. Thinks that, like, he's getting banned from the team because we didn't, like, choose some random player. It would have been, like, worse, but still fine, right? Like, it's just picking someone up for, like, pickleball, Right? But instead he chose to take in a particular way where, like, he made all of these assumptions, said all these different things, and chose to feel all these different things. And now he's living out in a world where, like, he's just, like. Like a outcast.

Eldar [00:07:38]:
Yeah. To add another point to it, we picked up asa. Asa actually was on the team way before Sheriff was. Right.

Toly [00:07:45]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:07:45]:
So like, asa, in a way then gets seniority if you were gonna, you know.

Mike [00:07:49]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:07:49]:
If you wanted to go there.

Eldar [00:07:50]:
If you wanted to go there. Right. It's like, we have more of a relationship with Ace in the first place.

Toly [00:07:55]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:07:55]:
Right. So that's the guy where we picked up.

Toly [00:07:57]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:07:57]:
You picked up, right?

Toly [00:07:58]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Eldar [00:08:00]:
So, like, you want to play that card.

Toly [00:08:02]:
Yeah. So it's just like. Like, I feel like this happens so much. It happens with, like, parents doing this to us, probably us doing it to parents doing it with friends, with. Just in general with the outside world. It's like getting angry at things, assuming things, and then, like, living out life based on those, like, assumptions. So I. So.

Toly [00:08:24]:
So, yeah, I feel like I would like to live in a world where I'm living in, like, the correct perception. So, like, I would like to try to have, like, the correct story about things and try to feel the correct things about it. So, like, if I'm not chosen on, like, a team, I don't want to go into, like, the wormhole of, like, okay, like, they don't like me. I'm hated. Like, they have something against my race, my, like, skin color. Like, whatever deep, deep hole that you want to go into, I don't want to participate in that. And then, like. Yeah, yeah, because then you just, like, live this life based on these, like, emotions or these, like, false narratives that, like, you think are playing out, and then you just continue living in there, and you never really, like, examine it to see if it's, like, actually real or not.

Toly [00:09:11]:
But you.

Eldar [00:09:11]:
But.

Toly [00:09:12]:
But you use, like, real, like, emotions of yours to live in that world, make those conclusions. Yes.

Eldar [00:09:18]:
Would you say that emotions kind of.

Toly [00:09:19]:
Are conclusions that you've made very, like, fast ones? Yeah, because, like, we can all, like, be, like, happy or sad or angry or frustrated or paranoid. Right. All that, like, extremely fast. And, like, that reaction time is like this. Right. It's just, like.

Eldar [00:09:35]:
So it's.

Toly [00:09:35]:
It's a snap of fingers.

Mike [00:09:36]:
So how does the story end?

Toly [00:09:39]:
The story ends. The story ends with him requesting. Back in chat.

Mike [00:09:43]:
Really?

Toly [00:09:44]:
And saying, I love you guys.

Eldar [00:09:45]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:09:45]:
Really? Yeah.

Eldar [00:09:47]:
And, like, he just.

Mike [00:09:48]:
That was it.

Eldar [00:09:49]:
Like, he just, like, I love you.

Toly [00:09:50]:
Yeah. I mean, he. He just threw a fit.

Tommy [00:09:54]:
This attitude of his. Was he really, like, volatile? Because that was before it seemed that he got. He got. He copped an attitude. Right before you chose the other guy. Is that right? He just heated that day.

Toly [00:10:09]:
Just that day, he was in general, like. Yeah, he was in general, like, a little, like, sour and egg in a wet mood. Wet mood.

Tommy [00:10:20]:
That sounds sort of opposite. He was like, what you described him as.

Eldar [00:10:22]:
Moppy.

Tommy [00:10:23]:
If he's typically the guy who's kind of nice and running around and saying hi to everybody.

Toly [00:10:27]:
Yeah.

Tommy [00:10:27]:
What do you think that. That seems a little weird, you know.

Eldar [00:10:32]:
Yeah. But if he was doing. Feeling something, he wasn't related to us. Maybe him not getting picked up on the team kind of took him to over the top, Right? Maybe. I'm not sure. But we don't know. We don't know what happened the day before or whatever that day.

Tommy [00:10:47]:
I feel like maybe that's why. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's in. It seems maybe you thought about this. You know, you thought about it afterwards and you were like, why does this happen? But I. I mean, I think we.

Mike [00:10:59]:
Yeah, we're too.

Eldar [00:11:00]:
What to talk about. To come up with a conclusion where you are under impression that totally hates you. That's a big. That's a serious assumption. He comes to him next day and asks him, like, why.

Mike [00:11:10]:
Oh, I remember there was a. There was a detail.

Eldar [00:11:12]:
Oh, yeah.

Mike [00:11:13]:
I was thinking what happened him. What happened. The last few weeks I've been playing, he's been complaining that Toli is yelling at him on the court for the way he's playing. And that sparked his initial thing. Yeah. Because I remember I was trying to figure out what actually happened.

Eldar [00:11:33]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:11:33]:
It wasn't a random explosion. He already thought that. Totally has an agenda against him because. Totally yelling at him in court because I was also tied to the story. He called me to cry about. Totally.

Eldar [00:11:43]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike [00:11:44]:
You know.

Toly [00:11:45]:
Yeah. And you were also tied to it. He called me to cry about you.

Mike [00:11:47]:
Yeah, yeah.

Eldar [00:11:48]:
But then you guys, I asked you guys and Totally was just clearly just having fun with him and trolling him. He wasn't like, taking it any seriously, but he.

Mike [00:11:55]:
The sheriff took it personal.

Eldar [00:11:56]:
He did take it personal.

Mike [00:11:57]:
He did 100.

Toly [00:11:59]:
It's the same thing like that. That. That's the same.

Eldar [00:12:01]:
That's an example.

Mike [00:12:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. But it's like Time was asking, what had something happened before? Like, what's the context? I think that happened that he felt that you were like bullying him, you weren't happy with him. And he mentioned to me during the week that there's some people that don't want me on the team. So I think when that happened, he's like, oh, okay. He already was thinking that people don't want him on a team. Now you kind of kick them off the team in that game. So that only contributed to even more to his, like, you know, illusion.

Tommy [00:12:27]:
I mean, what I'm distilling from this is if I'm this kid and I have These group of friends who are sort of, maybe a little kind of peripheral in my life, and this is also my way of sort of enjoying my life by going out to play basketball and I feel excluded in some way that's gonna like, fuck up my day a little bit. So maybe that kind of connects with why may. Why maybe you. You sort of thought about it. You know, it's like this person's pressing on me.

Toly [00:12:54]:
Yeah.

Tommy [00:12:56]:
I don't intend to be. You know.

Toly [00:13:01]:
That'S the point. Like you're. You're investing feelings into believing that you're being excluded without actually knowing whether you're being. What does that mean?

Tommy [00:13:09]:
Can we invest into others feelings? Well, you.

Toly [00:13:12]:
You're investing your emotions into a scenario that may or may not be real, but you are not verifying it's absolutely.

Tommy [00:13:19]:
Real if it's not up there.

Toly [00:13:22]:
Yeah. What are you talking about?

Tommy [00:13:23]:
Think about the last time that any kind of random thing just kind of shut you down. And is that what happened? Is that.

Eldar [00:13:31]:
Is.

Tommy [00:13:32]:
Is it typically that you wouldn't think twice about a situation like this?

Eldar [00:13:36]:
You mean it's real as. And it's happening to you? Yes, sure, it is happening to you. You experiencing those emotions. But it was a true. Yeah. Was it connected to the actual thing where totally was purposely like excluding him.

Toly [00:13:48]:
Right, right.

Tommy [00:13:49]:
So this comes out because people a.

Eldar [00:13:52]:
Lot of the times or I have that paranoid tendency where they think that like, oh, they're excluding me or whatever, they're not. Not inviting me places without really knowing what's actually behind the thing. So you start making conclusions and emotional reactions. Right. Conclusions to things that might not be actually true. Sure, you're experiencing the emotion, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's valid emotion.

Tommy [00:14:12]:
I think the mode. That's what exactly what I'm saying. The. The opposite that the emotion itself. Maybe. Maybe we need to talk about the perception of the emotion itself. You know, sometimes I feel guilt, and the worst thing that I could possibly do is to deny myself the idea that that's possible. You know, so it's got to be possible in a way to move forward, you know, to understand it.

Tommy [00:14:37]:
So it's not meant to punish somebody for, you know, thinking, why did this guy, you know, suddenly pick me out of a crowd? You know, it's meant to sort of, I don't know, just maybe shed light, I guess, on what you could understand from that situation. Like what could be understood from t being asked by this kid, why are you hating on me?

Eldar [00:15:00]:
The thing is with this question that we're trying to say, I think we're putting the burden on the person. On the person to find out who's actually making the wrong connections. I don't think it's up to totally to hear. To try to like, you know, convince Sheriff. Right. To say, hey, we don't actually hate you here, Mike. You know what I mean? Unless he wants to, of course, but.

Toly [00:15:16]:
I think he wants to learn how.

Tommy [00:15:17]:
To, you know, maybe manage that or.

Toly [00:15:19]:
No, if he wants to learn. If he wants to learn how to feel correct emotions towards scenarios, he should get the, like, like, like the correct picture of what's happening before investing those emotions.

Eldar [00:15:34]:
If he wants to.

Toly [00:15:35]:
Yeah.

Tommy [00:15:35]:
How much of a kid is he? How much of a kid is he? Sounds to me like he could be 16.

Eldar [00:15:41]:
No, I mean, he's a kid, but not that young.

Tommy [00:15:44]:
Twice the age. Yeah, kid, like 30 something.

Toly [00:15:48]:
Yeah, he's got a kid in high school or something in college.

Tommy [00:15:52]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:15:53]:
I mean, but he's young at heart.

Mike [00:15:57]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:15:57]:
So that.

Tommy [00:15:58]:
That sounds like.

Mike [00:15:58]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:15:59]:
The point is this is that, like.

Tommy [00:16:00]:
Not really at fault.

Toly [00:16:01]:
I guess the point is this is that there are scenarios in life and you feel a certain type of way towards those scenarios. Yet the problem happens is that when you're feeling a particular way towards a scenario that you don't know whether it's valid or not.

Eldar [00:16:16]:
I'll give you examples of your personal experience if you want.

Toly [00:16:19]:
Huh.

Eldar [00:16:20]:
All those times that you think that the girls are interested.

Tommy [00:16:21]:
You want to whip up a thread, go ahead.

Eldar [00:16:24]:
I just did. You know, you're under this impression that you guys have this connection and you then expand your emotions on it, you know what I mean? And you get so, like, riled up and stuff just to find out that she's not that into you. You know what I mean? How many times did I have.

Tommy [00:16:43]:
Does it relate. I guess. I don't know. I don't want to unpack it right now.

Toly [00:16:49]:
Yeah. The point is that, like, you want, you want in like a world, you, you want to live in a world where you're feeling correct things actually. And if you're in, like, if you're not feeling correct things and like, you want to examine yourself and feel correct things so that like, you can actually, like, okay, like, you're upset and you actually. There's actually a valid reason to be upset. But the majority of times, like, someone could be upset about something that is like, not even real to begin with.

Tommy [00:17:16]:
Yeah, this is exactly where I do too much overthinking.

Eldar [00:17:19]:
Yeah, you don't Want to be. You don't want to be caught in a situation when the police comes to you and they say, hey, like, somebody is. You know, you're saying that she was into me, and then they're right. She's writing, you know, a restraining order on you. You know what I mean? Like, you, like, officers. I thought she liked me. You know what I mean? You don't want to be under that, you know, precedent, you know, or impression. She's like, oh, you know, I don't want to have anything to do with Tom.

Eldar [00:17:40]:
But you're over here thinking like, oh, sir, we're boyfriend and girlfriend.

Tommy [00:17:46]:
Kind of doesn't make sense to me.

Eldar [00:17:47]:
All right, cool. Sounds good.

Tommy [00:17:48]:
It sounds awful. It sounds crazy.

Eldar [00:17:50]:
I'm trying to give you your.

Tommy [00:17:51]:
It scared me, you know?

Eldar [00:17:53]:
I get it.

Tommy [00:17:53]:
It's awful.

Eldar [00:17:54]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:17:54]:
Yeah.

Tommy [00:17:55]:
Did you feel that way? Did you feel like you maybe affected somebody and harmed them?

Toly [00:18:00]:
No.

Tommy [00:18:01]:
You don't know.

Toly [00:18:02]:
That's the point of it. No, that's the point of it is that, like, this person is. Is feeling like a particular thing. It's.

Mike [00:18:10]:
It.

Toly [00:18:10]:
Like, when you examine it, I think that, like, a lots of times people. People, like, refer to, like, okay, like. Like, there's your emotions, right? And then I guess there's your logic. But, like, what's happening here is that you're already living a particular perception, right. That is being played out, and then you have particular emotions backed by your current ways of logic.

Eldar [00:18:36]:
Right. In.

Toly [00:18:37]:
In that perception, and then you live out things that are not necessarily correct that just continue to pile on and create, like, more false perceptions.

Eldar [00:18:47]:
Understand, Tom, or. No, no.

Tommy [00:18:49]:
Yeah. I mean, it's not for me to sort of.

Eldar [00:18:53]:
He's trying to make you.

Tommy [00:18:55]:
I'm listening.

Eldar [00:18:56]:
As hard. As hard as it is, Tommy. He's trying to make you agree.

Tommy [00:18:59]:
I do get it. Yeah. I do get it.

Eldar [00:19:02]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike [00:19:05]:
If it's easier, I guess. I don't know, you guys. Is perceptions and assumptions related in this situation?

Eldar [00:19:12]:
Assumptions and perceptions. I think they are.

Toly [00:19:13]:
Yeah, I think.

Mike [00:19:14]:
I think that's easier. Like, I think that happens more often. We assume something's happening, and then, like, shortly thereafter, we find out that's not the truth. But in that assumption, we're already like, oh, this guy's a jerk. He this. He said that, and then he didn't do this. He didn't do that. Yeah, that's the assumption thing, I think.

Mike [00:19:33]:
Assuming that. Assuming that one thing happened when actually the complete opposite happened.

Eldar [00:19:37]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:19:38]:
In the simple terms, I guess perceptions.

Eldar [00:19:40]:
Are related to it. Because you're perceiving something that you're thinking that you're perceiving, you know, assuming out of that as well.

Mike [00:19:46]:
And then you perceive and then you assume. Right.

Eldar [00:19:49]:
Perceive and then assume, and then you react.

Toly [00:19:52]:
Yeah. It's like, I don't know, if you're waiting for somebody, for example, and someone's late. Right. Like, I think oftentimes people already start investing emotions into feeling a certain type of way about this person. Right.

Eldar [00:20:05]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:20:05]:
But then if he's like, oh, I was actually late because, like, I got hit by a car, you're like, oh, wow, damn. I'm so sorry. Now you're completely understanding. You get the situation. You're no longer upset, and you actually kind of feel bad. You actually feel bad about being upset to begin with now.

Eldar [00:20:24]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:20:24]:
You feel guilty, like, all these different things. But it's like. I think it also stems from, like, a need to. To. To, like, if you don't know why something's happening, you have to make it up.

Eldar [00:20:35]:
If you don't know something. Yeah.

Toly [00:20:37]:
You have to just make up a reason. They're an asshole.

Eldar [00:20:40]:
Okay.

Toly [00:20:40]:
They're mean, they don't like me. Whatever. Yeah.

Eldar [00:20:43]:
Okay, so then what do you suggest? Then what do you tackle it? From which end? Right. Making assumptions or remove emotions completely out of the scenario that you're reacting towards. Completely. And say, you know what? Until I find out whether or not these emotions are actually valid.

Toly [00:21:02]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:21:02]:
To the scenarios that I'm thinking about and assumptions that I'm having.

Toly [00:21:05]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:21:06]:
I'm not going to have any emotional reaction.

Toly [00:21:07]:
Yes. You're like, wait, that you want to talk about. Yeah. I mean, like, that sounds like an ideal way, what you're saying, from the emotional side. Yeah. But I feel like I'm not sure how practical it is because, like, when you're working on things like this, like, you're working from, like, a deficit already. Like, you already have emotions and like. Like, you.

Toly [00:21:26]:
You'll really have certain ways that you feel and react and. And they're in your subconscious.

Tommy [00:21:31]:
So my question is, how can that person consciously choose to put you in that deficit? How can they. How can their words and how can their behavior be consciously directed at achieving that outcome?

Eldar [00:21:46]:
Which one?

Toly [00:21:46]:
Which, like, if he's.

Tommy [00:21:48]:
He made a ruckus or whatever in the group chat, this guy.

Eldar [00:21:52]:
Okay.

Tommy [00:21:53]:
You know.

Toly [00:21:53]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:21:55]:
You know, he tried to make ruckus by telling Mike, like, mike, remove me from the chat. He said that. Right. And I think he was probably soliciting an emotional reaction, you know, where he's like, no, Mike, everything's all right. Listen, this is what we love you and all this. Mike said, no problem. He removed him from the chat. Right.

Eldar [00:22:13]:
So that's it. Now what happens is Mike is no longer involved here. And Sheriff now, right. Needs to sit with whatever it is decision that he's made, whatever conclusions he made, and now he asked the balls in his court to choose how he wants to act.

Tommy [00:22:26]:
But out of the three of you guys, t is the one who's hard about it. Like, you guys probably didn't think.

Eldar [00:22:31]:
Also, he also was on Mike's side.

Toly [00:22:33]:
He was like, talking about a deficit some. About something completely different.

Tommy [00:22:38]:
Yeah, it sounds to me like, where you said.

Toly [00:22:41]:
No, I said that you're working from a definition when it comes. No. Yeah, but you're not understanding what I said to begin with.

Eldar [00:22:46]:
You're.

Toly [00:22:47]:
I was saying that you're coming from a deficit when it comes to making a change about wrong perceptions and wrong emotions. I was not talking about that scenario at all.

Tommy [00:22:57]:
Are you saying that you had a wrong perception as a result of what this guy did?

Toly [00:23:00]:
No, no.

Eldar [00:23:02]:
Yeah, that guy had the wrong perception.

Mike [00:23:04]:
He's saying that. That our emotional responses are typically rooted in, like, a pattern behavior. It's like, how many times have you had to wait for somebody when they're late? Hundreds of times. Right. For example, just to make it more.

Toly [00:23:19]:
Yeah. I was going to say in the sense that when it comes to making a change on this, you're coming from a deficit because you already have, I don't know, probably thousands or millions or like, whatever, automatic reactions and automatic emotions to different scenarios. If I kick you in the face right now, you're gonna have a, like a reaction that you don't have to think about. You might get angry and slam this plant on my head immediately. You might not even, like, think about it. Right. Or cry or complain. Right.

Toly [00:23:48]:
Like, that's automatic. So I think what you're saying is correct. Yes. I think the ideal scenario, saying, hey, maybe I. Maybe my emotional and instant reactions are wrong and I'm just not gonna have any. But I think that, like, when they're so ingrained in you and, like, programmed in you, I think that it's very difficult. So.

Eldar [00:24:10]:
So what do you do?

Toly [00:24:12]:
Well, yeah, yeah, that's a question. Because, like, I guess the. The. The paradox I think of this, like, scenario to begin with is kind of like, like, what. What's happening is that there's a perception and then an emotion and then a new perception kind of created when you're talking about in practical terms, it feels like there's only an emotion and then a perception that follows. So I'm not sure whether you have to first change the way that you look at things to then get the proper emotions upon them to then live in the proper perceptions. I'm not sure if you could just go right away towards the emotions because you might already be living in previous wrong perceptions.

Eldar [00:24:54]:
Okay, that's interesting. So then, then. Then you saying that we might have to then evaluate our perceptions first.

Toly [00:25:00]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:25:00]:
Before we in an emotional state to see whether or not it's valid or not.

Toly [00:25:04]:
Yeah. Because, like, if you already. Like if your path is ready, like, make a left, then make a right, and then you have an emotion, like, for example, there for you to change it there, you might be walking the wrong path to begin with first.

Eldar [00:25:16]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:25:17]:
So it's like you kind of have to go all the way back. But in doing that, I think that.

Eldar [00:25:21]:
I think it's a lot harder, though, to identify, like, certain things that we are, like right now, like who's here. Who's here generally feels, for example, that they under some wrong impression. You. Okay, so give us an example.

Toly [00:25:34]:
Like, like, like, I. It's with. Without thinking about things, it's hard to identify that. But I feel like if you're living a life that you're not, like, I guess, always happy with or like.

Eldar [00:25:46]:
No, forget about that. Yeah, sure.

Toly [00:25:47]:
You know that you have some wrong.

Mike [00:25:48]:
Give us like an example. Like.

Eldar [00:25:50]:
Yeah, does anybody else have a wrong. Like, you might be under the wrong impression. Does anybody have a scenario right now? Like, is anybody in the fight with somebody, like, you know, a beef, you know?

Toly [00:26:00]:
Yeah, it might be hard to summon that.

Eldar [00:26:03]:
You know what I'm saying?

Toly [00:26:04]:
Exactly.

Eldar [00:26:06]:
It's hard to summon that. However, what I can summon is I can definitely summon emotions from the memory. From the memories.

Mike [00:26:12]:
It's hard. It's easier to.

Eldar [00:26:13]:
You know what I mean? Like, I got about Dennis's parents, or I can ask about Catherine's mom. I can ask about Mike's affiliate.

Toly [00:26:20]:
Okay, so. So, so you know, then what you would. So, so you think the proper ways to.

Eldar [00:26:25]:
I'm not sure. I was asking a question. I'm not sure which. The proper way. Yeah, I'm just trying to find out. How do you. Is it easier than just go through an emotional size? You know what? I have this emotion towards my mom when she says this.

Toly [00:26:36]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:26:37]:
And going forward, I'm like, I'm not having any emotions. Any emotional reactions to my mom. Whatever she says, I don't care what it is, just like, ban this. Right. No more emotional response.

Toly [00:26:46]:
Okay, so how do you connect? So like, what. What you're saying there is like, what, that, what Conscious, like, effort. How do you make that so when it's like your conscious is not the one that it's reacting.

Eldar [00:26:58]:
There you go.

Toly [00:26:59]:
Right.

Eldar [00:26:59]:
I say, yeah. I make a commitment to myself to say, you know what? My mom. Next time I have an interaction with my mom or whoever it is, I am not going to have an emotional response. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to give myself enough time to process whatever it is that is being thrown at me.

Toly [00:27:11]:
And how do you do that?

Eldar [00:27:13]:
Well, for example, I can interact with mom through text. Right. I have a little bit of a buffer. Right. I send her messages, hey, mom, how you doing?

Toly [00:27:23]:
But can you still address the same issue as if, like when the issue is in. In person, for example?

Eldar [00:27:29]:
Yeah, I think that. I think there is times for you, you can, you can, you can learn how to buffer time and, you know, and say, hey, I'll think about that. For example, you know, without. If they soliciting emotion out of you, some kind of reaction, you don't have to go into that.

Toly [00:27:43]:
Yeah, like. Like the, the closest thing that comes up to mind for me. And it's something that happens, I think, I mean, relatively, I guess, frequently. For example, in basketball, right?

Eldar [00:27:53]:
Mm.

Toly [00:27:53]:
Some people, like, some people will get fouled, right. And their first reactions, like, like, like they think that someone did it intentionally, they start to get potentially angry.

Eldar [00:28:03]:
Yeah, right.

Toly [00:28:03]:
And stuff like that. And then some people are like, they could get fouled that same way and understand that, like, hey, they were going for the ball or something like that. Or they, or like, they don't go right away to there. That response when you're getting hit is like an extremely fast one.

Eldar [00:28:17]:
Yeah, sure.

Toly [00:28:18]:
So like in, in. In a situation where you have, like, it's a very.

Eldar [00:28:22]:
That's a. That's a biased example. Most of the time. I think we do have. We, you know, I mean, we as people, I think we don't put ourselves in those types of situations where we're constantly under pressure to react. You know what I mean? Like basketball foul. You know what I mean? We're walking around, we're saying hi to people, we talk and stuff like that. We have time, buffer time in order to think and spool a proper response, not an emotional one.

Toly [00:28:44]:
Okay, so do you think, in general, to tackle this question, you have to examine the emotions that you have based on, like, whatever examples you can bring up.

Mike [00:28:56]:
Well, the emotions will tell you where the problematic areas are for you.

Eldar [00:28:59]:
Potentially, right? Potentially, yes.

Tommy [00:29:01]:
Like, something. Something really rings with me is how you say that you have this. You can. You can. You can take the time and deal with it. And I feel like if I were in your situation, one of the most difficult things for me would be to question this suddenly, like. Like, kind of strong outbursts from somebody, you know, for me, it would absolutely be difficult, you know, to stand up to sort of that kind of question of, you know, what this person's suggesting.

Eldar [00:29:33]:
It's like, oh, so you wouldn't like that?

Tommy [00:29:35]:
You know, even how you get weirdos and stuff, like, freaking out. Well, you're not like, hey, when did your schizophrenia begin?

Toly [00:29:41]:
No.

Eldar [00:29:42]:
Yeah, yeah.

Tommy [00:29:44]:
That's not. That's not easy at all. And some. Like this other. The other day, I'm in the city. It was about a month ago. I go to the bus gate. I go to the bus gate.

Tommy [00:29:55]:
Little do I know, the bus is not arriving there. It's at a different one. But this guy who is three times my weight follows me down there. He's drunk. And he starts grabbing me by the.

Eldar [00:30:06]:
Arm, by the hair, by the arm.

Tommy [00:30:09]:
Grabs me by the arm. He's like, hey, hey, come here.

Eldar [00:30:13]:
I want to kiss you.

Tommy [00:30:14]:
Help me out. Help me out. And he gets up in my face, and I. I had to literally step back and turn away from him and not acknowledge him. You know what I mean? Because I'm not really. I'm not the kind of person who.

Toly [00:30:26]:
You know, you were scared of him.

Tommy [00:30:28]:
To punch him square in the nose. I'm just not that kind of person.

Toly [00:30:31]:
You were scared of him at first?

Tommy [00:30:34]:
At first I was, you know, but when he saw, I suppose, that I was a little compassionate, he was like, now he suddenly wants to be a normal guy and talk like, hey, how you doing? So, how you doing? Sorry.

Toly [00:30:45]:
Sorry. I don't.

Tommy [00:30:46]:
I didn't mean to do that. But he was cornering me, and I felt threatened. But, you know, it's kind of.

Mike [00:30:51]:
You realize that you're actually crazier than him. Whatever he was trying to do wasn't working.

Eldar [00:30:57]:
So in a way, t is like, why did this.

Tommy [00:30:59]:
Not. Why did this, like, sudden, like, shock happen? Why did this suddenly happen? You know, because we're just playing basketball.

Eldar [00:31:09]:
I mean, the people on the receiving end, like Mike and Tony, at that moment, receiving his emotional outburst, I think they behave properly by just ignoring it and saying, you Know what? Like, we're not going to jump into it and start trying to cuddle you over here over something that's not real.

Tommy [00:31:23]:
No one wants to feel, though.

Mike [00:31:24]:
But it's also like, for me, at least it was learned because that week. Right. I learned the lesson with this particular gentleman, and it's still what kind of character it is. So I also understood what to expect and what to actually put weight. Value to or not what to put value to.

Toly [00:31:46]:
Okay.

Mike [00:31:46]:
So. But which also makes me think that most of our situations that we get frustrated, they're all. They're mostly repeating, I think. You know, like, I would agree with that. We get upset about the same stuff all the time.

Eldar [00:31:58]:
Yeah. Because we.

Mike [00:31:59]:
We got upset about, like, the. We haven't solved it because you haven't solved. We get upset about people, like, stupid drivers.

Eldar [00:32:04]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:32:04]:
We get upset about, like, you know, people being late. I don't know. We get upset about, like, you know, people messing up our orders or something. Like, you know, these things are very repetitive.

Eldar [00:32:14]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:32:14]:
So I don't think it's.

Toly [00:32:17]:
But. But. But I also think that, like, these tips happen because there's no. Like. Like. Like someone could say that. Like, hey, why do you hate me? Right. And that could mean, like, a whole, like, like, array of different things.

Toly [00:32:32]:
Like, he might just. To be doing puppy dog eyes. I'm not actually asking me why I hate it at all. Like, what's he. Like, what he's actually saying word wise. Like, might not mean at all what he's trying to message wise.

Eldar [00:32:46]:
Okay. Makes sense.

Mike [00:32:47]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:32:47]:
So it can't be like.

Eldar [00:32:48]:
But it shouldn't be on you to interpret it.

Toly [00:32:50]:
Yeah, well. Well, no, it is not. Well, I mean, in an ideal world, yes. But in this world, it is on you to.

Eldar [00:32:58]:
To.

Toly [00:32:58]:
To interpret it, because it's like, someone.

Eldar [00:33:00]:
Could like, like, how would you answer that?

Toly [00:33:02]:
What?

Eldar [00:33:03]:
How do you answer that? What did you say?

Toly [00:33:07]:
I mean, at first, I mean, like, I was a little startled. I was like, what?

Eldar [00:33:11]:
Yeah, yeah.

Toly [00:33:12]:
And then I'm like, what are you talking about?

Eldar [00:33:14]:
Yeah, exactly. I would have the same reaction. Yeah. Like, what impression are you under here? Yeah. What are you talking about? You asked.

Tommy [00:33:20]:
You asking?

Toly [00:33:21]:
Yeah, I said like, what are you talking about?

Eldar [00:33:24]:
Mm.

Toly [00:33:25]:
Yeah. And then he started saying stuff, and I'm like, chef, I don't hate you. I picked Asa. Right. You were having a bad attitude.

Mike [00:33:31]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:33:31]:
What's the problem?

Eldar [00:33:32]:
Yeah. And that's it.

Toly [00:33:34]:
That's it. Yeah. Explain to him that.

Eldar [00:33:39]:
Right.

Toly [00:33:40]:
Because then he started saying, but in.

Eldar [00:33:42]:
A way, is he is. He is. He owed an explanation.

Toly [00:33:47]:
No, I probably shouldn't even explain.

Eldar [00:33:49]:
It seems like you shouldn't have even explained it.

Katherine [00:33:51]:
No, but. But it seems like if he. If that was his approach towards Toleo, he's under the impression that he. That he does deserve an explanation.

Eldar [00:33:59]:
Yeah, 100%.

Katherine [00:34:00]:
There's a reason why you guys call him sheriff, right?

Eldar [00:34:02]:
Yeah.

Katherine [00:34:03]:
So he sees himself in a role or he has a perception of his role with you guys. You know, he probably felt like he was owed something.

Eldar [00:34:14]:
Yeah, maybe. Maybe.

Katherine [00:34:15]:
I mean, he took that really personal. How do you go from not getting picked up? This is like elementary stuff, elementary school. You don't get picked on a team. And now you're. You're. Now you're upset and now you're, you know, attacking the person.

Tommy [00:34:28]:
I think that's why he feels isolated.

Katherine [00:34:30]:
It sounds kind of childish.

Eldar [00:34:31]:
Just.

Tommy [00:34:32]:
Just on my way here, I was telling Dennis, Dennis picked me up. I was telling him, I can't believe that When I was 26 or 27, I chose to take out loans for no reason at all when my entire education was being covered anyway, thinking I needed to support myself. And now that these loans are being forgiven when it's just the result of what they decided to do, I kind of feel like I wasn't mature enough. A robber back then. No, no. I just feel I wasn't mature enough.

Toly [00:35:06]:
Yeah.

Tommy [00:35:06]:
I guess you could say guilty that.

Mike [00:35:08]:
The loans were forgiven or.

Tommy [00:35:09]:
No, you feel wrong and you feel uncomfortable, uncertain or something because there's something bigger outside of you happening that makes sense.

Eldar [00:35:19]:
Yeah.

Tommy [00:35:19]:
And to me, it kind of seems like, how can I call that a pleasant. Like, how can I call that a. How can I call that a good thing, really? I want. I question. I question how I can call it a good result for me inside. Deep inside.

Eldar [00:35:35]:
Yeah.

Tommy [00:35:35]:
You know?

Eldar [00:35:36]:
Well, you just do it this way, Tom, to kind of get back to the topic. You were tricked into taking the loans in the first place. Okay. So it's okay.

Toly [00:35:46]:
How do I.

Tommy [00:35:47]:
How do I say. When you say tricked, you were tricked into thinking it, right?

Eldar [00:35:53]:
You were tricked into taking them.

Tommy [00:35:55]:
Saying I was tricked into taking them mean means to me that, like, I wasn't conscious about it. I wasn't. I wasn't thinking straight about.

Eldar [00:36:03]:
Like you said you were marketed to, Tom. Everybody was doing it. And you feel like that was the right thing to do. Nobody explained to you. Just went with the flow. That's all it was.

Tommy [00:36:11]:
See, for me to make decisions that I'm not thinking through clearly really scares me, you know, it's kind of the kind of situation.

Toly [00:36:20]:
Well, yeah, that, that's the whole point of questions that you don't want to live in the wrong perceptions so that like, you don't live in these realities that looking back at them, like, they don't make sense to you. So like, you want to figure out a way to have proper emotions and like, proper logic towards things so that.

Tommy [00:36:41]:
Is it natural for us, is it just purely natural for us to make decisions and then to try in a way to sweep those decisions under the rug as if they're, they're like final and like, perceptions change over time.

Toly [00:36:54]:
Right.

Tommy [00:36:54]:
But maybe we decide to like, lock out those perceptions, thinking, like, we've done all that we could, but then they start coming up again.

Toly [00:37:03]:
Yeah, I, I definitely think that, like, the way that we were raised and like our understandings for things is that like, we need to have an understanding or an answer of like, everything that is going on. And if we don't know it, then we need to make an assumption.

Eldar [00:37:18]:
Well, you think that's the question society or.

Toly [00:37:21]:
Yeah, yeah, I just think that, like, that's the way that we were like, somehow taught that like, you can't just be like a situation happens and be.

Eldar [00:37:29]:
Like, I don't know.

Toly [00:37:29]:
Yeah, no emotion at all towards it. I think that like, even if you don't know what's emotion to have, you have to imagine you factual.

Eldar [00:37:36]:
Wow, that's interesting. Anybody can relate here or.

Mike [00:37:39]:
No, No, I never thought about that. Sounds kind of crazy.

Eldar [00:37:45]:
No, I think he's right, actually.

Katherine [00:37:47]:
We're emotional beings.

Toly [00:37:48]:
Right.

Eldar [00:37:48]:
No, what he's saying is that, you know, like, even if there's a situation right now that can happen and you don't know how to react to it, you will line up with the emotions of other people or whatever or the status quo just to have an emotion because you think that's the right thing to do.

Toly [00:38:03]:
You can't just like, not, not react. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, like for example, if all of your friends were going somewhere and then you weren't invited, like, and, and, and, and you're not able to right away, like, figure out why or ask. I think that the way that your mind works, that you'll be forced to feel why and then you will be forced mentally to give yourself a reason why, whether it's like, they don't like me or something along those lines. You can't just walk around the same saying, okay, I wasn't invited. I'll figure out why at a Certain point and then after that I'll feel a certain way about it.

Tommy [00:38:47]:
Yeah, well, I mean, when I think.

Toly [00:38:49]:
About this guy forced to feel a.

Tommy [00:38:50]:
Certain way naturally I'm the kind of person who is like, maybe, maybe not naturally, but I think I'd say spending time with my friends and going to YP back in the day and being involved. I've been writing about this recently has, has really strengthened me as a person. Let's just say it strengthened me as a person. I think it's made me a better person overall. And it's also had this kind of, you know, effect of helping me think more critically about others needs. And to me, the first thing that comes to mind is, you know, I have complaints about my, my earlier life when I'm, when I was younger. You know, like I think when I was a kid people made fun of me or, or you know, I was, I felt excluded by my teachers. I felt like my family was different.

Tommy [00:39:42]:
You know, being a foreigner, you feel like you're a little different and it's a little weird. And then suddenly like there's this negative thought that says like that can't be true. You know, it just can't be true because you do it to yourself. You know, it's like, it's insane. It's like almost nuts. To claim that you deserve something. It's almost nuts. But when I think about this guy, I'm like, there's a little bit of that in there, you know.

Toly [00:40:09]:
Okay. Like, no, I'm talking.

Mike [00:40:12]:
No, I think my example was is this the truth or is this a lie? Am I being honest or I'm being dishonest?

Eldar [00:40:18]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:40:19]:
Am I?

Toly [00:40:19]:
No, but that's fair.

Mike [00:40:20]:
Am I being just.

Toly [00:40:21]:
No.

Mike [00:40:22]:
Do you want to think about that every single time or would you.

Toly [00:40:24]:
That's not what I'm saying though. That, that, that like, that would be more of like a dumb mind. Like I'm talking about intelligent mind that is in the moment able to answer things in accordance to the truth and having enough capacity where that is not a chore. That, that is just which is subconscious.

Eldar [00:40:42]:
Which is already you. It's already logged, lodged in your subconscious so much. It's already ingrained in you.

Toly [00:40:47]:
Yeah. I guess I view that as your 100 conscious.

Eldar [00:40:49]:
Okay, yeah, cool.

Toly [00:40:50]:
But, but for example, like the way that you like step on the basketball court or the, the way that you shoot a leg.

Mike [00:40:56]:
I think that's the paradoxical thing of enlightenment is that your subconscious and your conscious. I think what you're discussing, you're Calling it one thing, we're calling another. I think that's when there is no, like, distinction between the two, maybe.

Eldar [00:41:08]:
I think so.

Toly [00:41:10]:
Yeah. Like, like the way that I'm viewing it now, the subconscious does do, like, there are some good 100 train habits. 100, right. But I think there's also a lot of bad ones, too.

Eldar [00:41:22]:
Yeah, for sure.

Toly [00:41:22]:
Okay. And I think maybe the way that the subconscious right now is utilized is that the conscious does not have enough capability or capacity to be conscious enough to do, to, like, put them, put that person in a position where they can actually think about things and do things in, like, a aware type of mindset. So the subconscious is kind of saying, okay, we know that you don't have capacity for all this, so we're going to automate some processes here.

Eldar [00:41:55]:
Yeah, right, yeah.

Toly [00:41:56]:
We're going to do some automatic things for you. Like that, that's the idea I have right now of how that's like being like a leverage.

Mike [00:42:04]:
Yes. But it's being leveraged for good and bad as well.

Eldar [00:42:06]:
Correct.

Mike [00:42:07]:
It's not by accident that it's good and bad.

Eldar [00:42:09]:
Yes.

Toly [00:42:10]:
Both. Yes, yes, yes.

Eldar [00:42:12]:
I think then the goal is. Yeah, like you said, the goal is.

Mike [00:42:14]:
To untrain the bad stuff.

Eldar [00:42:16]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:42:17]:
And add all the good stuff.

Toly [00:42:19]:
1, 100.

Mike [00:42:20]:
Okay.

Toly [00:42:21]:
Yeah. But in, in, like, in those moments of when you're training and doing all that. I, I, Yeah, yeah. I, I, you think that it's difficult. No, no, I'm saying that I'm not sure wording wise is if you're getting less conscious or more conscious or you're getting, or like. Yeah, I view it as, I think.

Eldar [00:42:37]:
You'Re getting more conscious.

Toly [00:42:38]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:42:38]:
Becoming more that, that, yeah, you definitely more conscious. However, that conscious then rests in, in the right subconscious as well.

Toly [00:42:47]:
Yeah. Okay, so then I think when we're also talking, are we confident that in our lifetime, this current lifetime, we'll be able to get to a point where we'll have the maximum capacity for everything.

Eldar [00:43:03]:
What's the name? You can't even make that kind of prediction. Like, you know what I mean? Depending on. Are you guaranteed that, you know, Mr. Putin is not gonna throw a nuclear bomb on you tomorrow?

Toly [00:43:12]:
No, no, I'm on the side. Is that. Probably not.

Eldar [00:43:14]:
Okay, cool.

Toly [00:43:15]:
Yeah.

Eldar [00:43:15]:
Oh, you're assuming that we can live to 100?

Toly [00:43:18]:
No, no, I'm saying that we probably won't. So, like, we're going to always have, like, we're probably going to live in a world where, like, we're still going to have some Some problems. Right. So I feel like we're going to have to try to leave on our conscious plate the things that we need to work out and then the things that we've already worked out and that we have down, we can kind of put those into the subconscious.

Eldar [00:43:41]:
Yeah, I'm not sure, I'm not sure about that. I think that. Yeah, yeah, sure. You're saying that we might have problems, but, but to individual who is thinking and who's striving towards a blissful state, I think the redefinition of problems has to take place so.

Toly [00:43:56]:
Well, yeah, I mean it can be viewed as opportunities, obviously.

Mike [00:43:59]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:43:59]:
So.

Eldar [00:43:59]:
Right. Just. Just by doing that, then what are we talking about here?

Toly [00:44:02]:
No, but I'm saying is, is that there is a. There, there's currently a certain amount of capacity that you need right now consciously. Right. To. To tackle the things that you're doing and to live life the way that you do.

Mike [00:44:14]:
I think the consciousness, that feeling of consciousness is when those emotions hit you. You know, that's conscious as fuck. You know, it forces, if you get forced, based on previously programmed nonsense. Nonsense into your subconscious.

Toly [00:44:30]:
Yes. I think the problem. And now someone's elder. I think the, the problem that happens is when subconscious feelings and thoughts punish you consciously.

Mike [00:44:40]:
Well, yeah, when your subconscious is not rooting the truth. It. I think it makes sense that you're going to feel the pain for it.

Eldar [00:44:47]:
I think that's impossible now that I think about it.

Toly [00:44:49]:
What?

Eldar [00:44:50]:
It's impossible to be punished subconsciously while you're conscious.

Tommy [00:44:54]:
Why?

Eldar [00:44:55]:
Because those two can't, can't exist within the same moment.

Toly [00:44:58]:
Oh, oh, oh. Because you're saying that when, when you're conscious, you don't buy into those conscious things.

Eldar [00:45:04]:
Correct? Yeah. Like some internal. Say. I don't think you could experience the same moment, would you?

Toly [00:45:08]:
Could, could, could something like, could something be happening to you that you are suffering from consciously and you're not sure why?

Eldar [00:45:19]:
Consciously? Like what?

Toly [00:45:22]:
Like, I don't know, like you're doing shit as backwards and you, you don't know it but you're like right now saying this.

Mike [00:45:29]:
I think you're justifying it yourself.

Eldar [00:45:32]:
How do you coining it as conscious though?

Toly [00:45:36]:
If you have a presence of that person's capacity of being aware at that.

Eldar [00:45:40]:
That person's not aware? I don't think so.

Mike [00:45:42]:
And also if people are suffering automatic response potentially, my guess is that. Oh, my tooth hurts. Oh, it's probably I ate something chocolate or I ate something sweet or I had this. We're Constantly trying to figure it out. So we are conscious and something like we're consciously working trying to figure out.

Eldar [00:46:00]:
Doesn'T mean that we're right.

Mike [00:46:01]:
Doesn't mean that we're right. But we are still trying to figure out.

Toly [00:46:04]:
Yeah, but it also doesn't mean that we're not experiencing pain at those moments.

Mike [00:46:08]:
Yeah, yeah, we are.

Eldar [00:46:10]:
If you examine it. I don't think you are. If you really examine moment to moment, I don't think you are. I don't think it's possible.

Toly [00:46:16]:
Yeah, but I also don't think it's possible to experience pain if you're examining things.

Eldar [00:46:19]:
Right, that's what I'm saying.

Mike [00:46:21]:
A non physical pain. Yeah.

Eldar [00:46:23]:
Probably not mental pain.

Mike [00:46:25]:
Mental pain. Yeah, it's definitely a choice.

Eldar [00:46:27]:
Yeah, it's more. I'm not sure, but I'm just saying that like what he's saying that, look, we have subconscious things that are bothering us. Sure. And they're constantly, constantly like, you know, infiltrate, you know, our conscious state. I don't think when you're actually conscious and you're aware, it's.

Mike [00:46:41]:
Yes, okay, I know what you're saying.

Eldar [00:46:43]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:46:43]:
If we're having a reasonable conversation.

Eldar [00:46:45]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:46:45]:
You cannot, you cannot, you cannot summon.

Toly [00:46:48]:
No, no, that's, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying in situations where you're suffering from something and you're not aware that there's another solution out there, but you.

Eldar [00:46:57]:
Are like you're experiencing the suffering moment.

Toly [00:46:59]:
Yes, you're experiencing a suffering moment.

Mike [00:47:01]:
But.

Toly [00:47:01]:
But you're not sure where it's like rooted in.

Eldar [00:47:04]:
So what that means you're just not sure where it's rooted in.

Toly [00:47:07]:
Yeah, but you are suffering from the subconscious because you could have had a subconscious response to get you into that position to begin with.

Mike [00:47:14]:
How are you suffering with subconscious in that example or. Yeah, if you can give an example. I don't understand how you're saying you're suffering consciously.

Toly [00:47:20]:
So, so, so and an event happens.

Mike [00:47:23]:
Okay, like what, what's an event that can happen that you're suffering consciously because. And you know it's because of the subconscious. Right? Is that what you said?

Toly [00:47:31]:
No, you don't know that it's where, where it's coming from. But it's coming from like she's saying.

Eldar [00:47:35]:
That he's in a conscious state experiencing subconscious problems.

Toly [00:47:39]:
No, but wait, I'm going to clarify by saying is that the subconscious, the, the conscious state is, is just a state of being alive in, in that moment and being able, I guess, to.

Eldar [00:47:49]:
Oh, no, then we're. Yeah, then we're talking about.

Toly [00:47:51]:
I'm not talking about a person that's like a examined person at that moment.

Mike [00:47:57]:
Yeah, yeah.

Eldar [00:47:58]:
We're talking about two different things.

Toly [00:47:59]:
Yeah, like, I'm talking about like someone.

Eldar [00:48:01]:
For example, who's living and breathing.

Toly [00:48:03]:
Someone who's complaining about something. Right. Like they're right now complaining about something. Right.

Eldar [00:48:08]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:48:09]:
And they're suffering from it. But they, but, but the reason that they got to that place to begin with, for example, could have been a subconscious automatic response that got him there.

Eldar [00:48:19]:
Sure. That's what they experience, a subconscious. They're still asleep.

Toly [00:48:23]:
Yes.

Eldar [00:48:24]:
So they're not conscious, but you're saying they're conscious. I don't think they're conscious.

Toly [00:48:28]:
Yeah, I'm talking about they're feeling a moment in like. They're feeling something in a particular, like, moment.

Eldar [00:48:35]:
Yeah, but they're, they're, they could be, well, asleep in that moment.

Toly [00:48:38]:
Well, I mean, obviously, that's what I'm saying. No, I know, but I'm saying is that there, that's an example of somebody who is, I guess, alive and feeling something in a particular moment that resulted from a moment where they were not feeling anything.

Eldar [00:48:53]:
Yeah. You would have to give an actual example for me to follow you.

Toly [00:49:00]:
Like, it's like instant reactions to things, right?

Mike [00:49:04]:
Let's say you're driving a car and the driver gets into car accident and you had no control over it. Is that like a subconscious conscious thing you're trying to give an example of?

Toly [00:49:12]:
Wait, you're what, you're in a car.

Mike [00:49:14]:
But you're not driving and the accident happens? No, no, that's not an example.

Toly [00:49:19]:
No, like you're talking about like, like you're using definition of like a conscious individual is individual that is aware. Aware and living by the truth in that moment.

Eldar [00:49:32]:
Who's experiencing the truth?

Toly [00:49:34]:
Yeah, yeah, no, I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about someone.

Eldar [00:49:36]:
That's what I said. That's what I said. So, so you, you talking about a person who' and just. It continues to experience asleep but alive in that moment. A form of the subconscious doings.

Toly [00:49:50]:
Yes. So then you're just saying that that person's asleep and there's just different levels of asleep for that person.

Eldar [00:49:57]:
No, I just think that it's a continuation where you're saying that it came from the subconscious. I'm just telling you that that individual is still in that subconscious state complaining about what I.

Toly [00:50:08]:
Would you agree that there is a, a difference between that Person's automatic. Not even thinking scenarios compared to them in the moment. Trying to think at the best of their abilities they currently have. What, is there not still a difference there?

Eldar [00:50:23]:
You have to give me example, bro.

Mike [00:50:26]:
Yeah, I'm not following.

Eldar [00:50:27]:
Yeah, me too.

Mike [00:50:29]:
And Kat hasn't been following for subconscious conscious, you guys.

Eldar [00:50:33]:
Yeah. Well, look, the easiest thing is, look, right, you're not aware right now of the things that you have inside of you, right? There's a little bank, okay. In this bank, imagine, right, automatic responses to your relationship with your mom. Okay. Picture you have a relationship with your mom. Correct. There is a bank inside your mind, right, of how you respond to your mom. There can be different ones, right, With.

Toly [00:51:00]:
With those goblins from Hogwarts working in it.

Eldar [00:51:03]:
Yeah. They're reeling in the gold.

Toly [00:51:05]:
They're working.

Eldar [00:51:08]:
I don't remember. Some gremlins. Yeah. Okay. This is the subconscious mind right here. Okay. It's. There's subconscious responses and all this automatic things that usually, you know, get riled up when you have.

Katherine [00:51:23]:
When I'm not balanced.

Eldar [00:51:24]:
Sure.

Toly [00:51:24]:
There you go.

Eldar [00:51:25]:
Right. When you're not balanced, Right. So imagine your mom comes in and she triggers or pushes certain buttons, right. To summon the subconscious mind. This is the subconscious mind. We're trying to figure out the difference between the conscious mind and the subconscious mind and how the two relate. And when do one that goes to sleep, when does the other one get summoned and stuff like that. This is what we talk about, right? So then you can have control over one or the other and you have a choice in the matter versus being actually just have automatic responses because they've been conditioning you in this subconscious world of responses.

Toly [00:51:57]:
Yeah. It would be almost like you're having a conversation with. With your mom and you could like hit the pause button and talk to Elder about it. Like, hey, my mom just said this, right. And these are the things I felt. Yeah, here's what I felt. Here's what's going on. Like, you almost can have that dialogue and then press unpause and like continue it.

Eldar [00:52:15]:
Have a choice.

Toly [00:52:16]:
Yeah. And have a choice in the matter.

Eldar [00:52:18]:
Matter. Actually have a choice in the matter.

Toly [00:52:19]:
Yeah. Like ideally, you want to say every time the correct and proper response to everything that your mom says or does. Right?

Mike [00:52:25]:
Like that without having to go to.

Eldar [00:52:27]:
The automatic bank that what does what? They pretty much hold you hostage to emotional experiences, and then you're getting emotional, frustrated, like. No.

Toly [00:52:36]:
Hold you hostage to only have emotional experience, pretty much.

Eldar [00:52:40]:
You know what I mean? Which is probably not desirable because, I.

Toly [00:52:43]:
Mean, you know, the logical mind then comes back and it's like, wait, all we've been experiencing is this, like, nonsense emotions this whole time. And then the logical mind is not upset. Like now you're upset by yourself. Right. Of like, how did you get here?

Eldar [00:52:57]:
Okay, so we're trying to understand the relationship between the two. The conscious individual who's sitting here right now reasoning through this stuff, and then that subconscious individual was going to go to sleep. Next time your moments happen with your mom, what happens? Right. And totally has a different argument. He's saying that. Say it.

Toly [00:53:18]:
Well, I mean, like, can you say. Because now I'm like, jumbo, confused.

Mike [00:53:24]:
We're confused about what you're saying.

Eldar [00:53:26]:
We're confused about what you're saying that you're saying that somehow the individual who's conscious. Right.

Toly [00:53:32]:
Alive. Yes, Just alive.

Mike [00:53:35]:
There's like, unrelated examples.

Toly [00:53:38]:
You may not be be good at being conscious.

Katherine [00:53:42]:
The state that you were just talking about when I'm, when I'm, when I react to my mom, is that conscious or subconscious? What is that?

Eldar [00:53:49]:
That's, that comes from your subconscious bank. Right. That comes out into reality. Right. Because you already have responses programmed in you that you don't know how to control, so it automatically just comes out like an outburst right into reality.

Katherine [00:54:02]:
So when you guys are saying that you want to be more conscious is have that, put that, put that in check.

Eldar [00:54:08]:
Well, I. Check yourself, ideally.

Katherine [00:54:10]:
Okay. And now what is your argument?

Eldar [00:54:12]:
Yeah, he's saying something else completely, which we're trying to understand, but I don't.

Toly [00:54:16]:
Understand how that pertains to this example.

Eldar [00:54:18]:
I was just explaining to Catherine where we were. Oh, I was just saying, like, we're trying to figure out the subconscious mind.

Toly [00:54:24]:
So what I'm trying to say. So I, I, I, I guess let me try to bring it all together. Eldar is saying that, like, when you're consciously thinking, like, you're actually in alignment 100 with the truth in those moments.

Eldar [00:54:38]:
Right.

Toly [00:54:38]:
And then when you're, when it's, you're.

Eldar [00:54:40]:
Not affected by the subconscious mind in that moment.

Toly [00:54:42]:
Yes.

Eldar [00:54:43]:
Impossible.

Toly [00:54:43]:
Yes. And then you have your subconscious mind, which is just more of like this is coming from your storage, from like your understandings and, like, how things work. Yeah. That's like an automatic thing. Right. I'm saying is that I also think that individuals could be alive and thinking, but be not at that level where they could, like, be aligned in those moments with the truth, and they could still be suffering from, suffering from kind of mistakes made by those subconscious responses. So I feel like I'm almost saying is that like not everyone is good at being conscious, but they could still be suffering from the subconscious things.

Eldar [00:55:22]:
Yeah. And I'm saying that in the moment when you are conscious, it's impossible for you to suffer from those subconscious things. It's impossible.

Mike [00:55:28]:
You can. If we haven't, they don't exist. If we're having a conversation, you have a problem, right. With your mom and you come to us.

Toly [00:55:37]:
That's a different example though. I'm talking about like with yourself. You may not be good at reasoning through the situation or thinking about the situation correctly that that is happening, but you could still be alive and feeling feelings resulted from mistakes made by your subconscious.

Mike [00:55:55]:
Like, so you're just response, wrong impression.

Toly [00:56:00]:
Guilt. Well, guilt. Like you. You may not have the abilities to. Like, you may not be skillful enough in that moment or on the thing that you're doing or just in general in life to even figure out a way to line up with the truth.

Mike [00:56:13]:
But if you're in that moment, you wouldn't even know this exists, right?

Toly [00:56:17]:
Well, no, if you don't have the skills to be conscious, I'm saying is that there's the conscious mind, which is.

Eldar [00:56:23]:
That's what you're just experiencing. You're not. You're not thinking. Yeah.

Toly [00:56:26]:
Elder saying that that person is like. I'm saying that that person is still alive. And they're definitely alive, thinking to some capacity and still experiencing. But I just don't think that they're. That they have been exposed to the truth or are able to understand it, yet they are still suffering from subconscious mistakes. Just they don't have.

Eldar [00:56:47]:
Would guilt be an example? Right. Like you. Let's just say this, right? Yeah. You know, your mom said something to you. You yelled at her.

Toly [00:56:56]:
Right?

Eldar [00:56:56]:
Okay. You hung up the phone, Mom. Fuck off. Boom. Yes, you hung up the phone.

Toly [00:57:00]:
Okay. And that event happened subconsciously. Right?

Eldar [00:57:03]:
The fuck off part. Yeah.

Toly [00:57:04]:
Yes.

Eldar [00:57:05]:
Okay. Right. Obviously it's, you know, let's just say it was a bad emotional response. You hang up the phone.

Toly [00:57:10]:
Okay.

Eldar [00:57:10]:
Okay. Now I feel guilt.

Toly [00:57:13]:
Yes. And now I'm. Now I'm thinking about things in real time. I'm actually thinking them. Yeah, but I don't have good abilities to figure out what happened.

Eldar [00:57:22]:
Well, you do.

Toly [00:57:23]:
No, no, let's say I'm. I. I don't have good, Good ability. Like I. I feel maybe a feeling of guilt, but I also. But. But I understand what's happening.

Eldar [00:57:31]:
Yeah, but that's. I mean, like, I may not Know what's happening. You clearly. If you have. Talking about guilt right now, let's just talk about that. Okay? You feel guilty that you probably was a little bit too much.

Mike [00:57:41]:
You were.

Eldar [00:57:42]:
You know, you could have said, hey, mama, I don't want to talk right now. Hang up, whatever.

Toly [00:57:44]:
Right.

Eldar [00:57:45]:
But you said, fuck off. Right. So you feel guilty feeling. So that guilty feeling is actually a very conscious feeling to telling you and guiding you to say that, hey, you fucked up here. Okay, So I don't think that's an example of.

Mike [00:57:56]:
But.

Toly [00:57:56]:
But then may maybe my ways to going about working on this thing or even thinking about these things could be wrong to begin with, because I'm not in alignment with the truth. Right.

Eldar [00:58:06]:
I mean, when you're feeling like if you did something wrong and you got guilt out of it and, you know, and you're like, okay, cool, I feel guilty because I shouldn't have said that. Right, Right. Then you're clearly experiencing the right moment, the right feeling, and everything, the way you're reasoning through it is correct. So it's not incorrect based on what you're saying.

Toly [00:58:22]:
That example. Yeah.

Eldar [00:58:23]:
No.

Toly [00:58:23]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Eldar [00:58:24]:
So see, the guilt didn't do it for you.

Toly [00:58:26]:
Yeah. So are you saying that, like, any individual, if they're sitting there thinking about a given scenario, they could be under the wrong impression about how. What the. What the rules are and how things work, that they cannot be suffering from subconscious actions?

Katherine [00:58:45]:
Wait. No, that's not what he said. Is that what you're trying to say?

Toly [00:58:48]:
Yeah, like he said.

Eldar [00:58:50]:
No, no, no, no. Is that possible? You understand what he's asking?

Mike [00:58:57]:
No. Can you repeat it?

Toly [00:59:02]:
Can an individual.

Eldar [00:59:04]:
Right.

Toly [00:59:05]:
Who is under the wrong impression.

Eldar [00:59:07]:
Mm.

Toly [00:59:08]:
But still thinking about things in a particular moment?

Eldar [00:59:12]:
See, like that. You lost me right there. Individual under the wrong impression but still thinking about.

Toly [00:59:16]:
So can you think. Can you think but be under the wrong impression completely and be wrong completely, but still be thinking, why not?

Eldar [00:59:24]:
Why not?

Toly [00:59:25]:
That's what I'm saying.

Eldar [00:59:27]:
Yeah.

Mike [00:59:27]:
So what are you saying, though?

Eldar [00:59:28]:
Yeah.

Toly [00:59:28]:
You lost?

Eldar [00:59:29]:
Why?

Toly [00:59:29]:
Why are you lost?

Mike [00:59:31]:
I mean, people.

Eldar [00:59:33]:
Yeah. They're just.

Mike [00:59:34]:
They think right is wrong and wrong is right.

Eldar [00:59:36]:
Yeah. They're just on the wrong impression. Yes.

Toly [00:59:38]:
But they could still be suffering from. From subconscious things that they're wrong about to begin with?

Mike [00:59:43]:
I don't know. The drawing? Yeah.

Eldar [00:59:46]:
I don't know.

Toly [00:59:47]:
I'm not sure how. How else to say it.

Eldar [00:59:51]:
Yeah. So then I don't. I'm not gonna come back to it.

Mike [00:59:53]:
We'll circle back.

Eldar [00:59:54]:
Yeah, maybe. Yeah.

Toly [00:59:56]:
I'm saying that like. Like, the impression I get is that you're saying that suffering is impossible if you're under the wrong impression.

Mike [01:00:06]:
Suffering is conscious suffering.

Toly [01:00:08]:
Like. Like that. That's the vibe that I'm getting, is that, like, you cannot. Like you're saying that.

Eldar [01:00:12]:
What I'm saying is that if you're. If you're seeing things for what they are. No conscious individual.

Toly [01:00:16]:
No, you're not conscious things.

Eldar [01:00:19]:
You're saying.

Toly [01:00:20]:
I'm not depicting an individual that is seeing things for what they are. I'm depicting.

Eldar [01:00:25]:
You're just depicting a person who's suffering. That's it. Like, there's. I don't disagree with that.

Mike [01:00:28]:
No, no, the wording is wrong. He. He messed the wording. He said conscious.

Eldar [01:00:34]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:00:35]:
If we're having a conscious conversation, you cannot be suffering in the conversation.

Toly [01:00:39]:
No, I'm talking about. I'm not talking about a conversation with somebody else. I'm talking about you individually working through something.

Mike [01:00:45]:
Yeah. Okay. If you don't have an elder hat next to you.

Toly [01:00:47]:
Yeah. You individually working through something. Right. You could be alive and in that moment suffering from something that you are doing subconsciously. You guys were saying that that is not possible.

Eldar [01:01:01]:
You would have to give us.

Mike [01:01:03]:
Yeah, yeah.

Eldar [01:01:05]:
I still can't.

Mike [01:01:05]:
Like, I can't understand what it is. He is actually the one. You might know what D. Is the one who might know actually.

Toly [01:01:14]:
Sorry, I would answer, but yes. One for one.

Eldar [01:01:18]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:01:19]:
Like, you gotta make one more free throw.

Eldar [01:01:21]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:01:25]:
Oh, Eldar.

Eldar [01:01:26]:
Oh. What? No, if you have. If you have the answer to it, what he's saying. If you understand it. No, it was just random. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.

Mike [01:01:41]:
Yeah, you understand the question? See, that's bad.

Eldar [01:01:48]:
He asked for free throw then. Okay, fine. Oh, my God. Yeah, he'll get you. He'll get you soon. Later in a couple of podcasts.

Mike [01:02:02]:
Boom.

Eldar [01:02:03]:
You know, Dennis. Dennis blows up again. Pt.

Mike [01:02:06]:
2.

Eldar [01:02:08]:
Oh, my God. No, we don't understand. Yeah, you're gonna have to guide us, help us here.

Toly [01:02:12]:
You know, I mean, I could be wrong here. What I'm saying is like. Like, the understanding I have is that there could be an individual that is suffering in a. In, like, what seems to be, for them, a conscious way.

Mike [01:02:26]:
What is a conscious. What is a conscious way?

Eldar [01:02:28]:
Yeah, you have to slow down.

Toly [01:02:30]:
Yes.

Mike [01:02:30]:
Yeah, slow. Let's break it down. Yeah, you're a live, breathing human. Okay. And.

Toly [01:02:35]:
And I'm thinking about a situation that I'm suffering from. From an action that I did subconsciously. However.

Mike [01:02:41]:
Hold on.

Eldar [01:02:41]:
Yes.

Mike [01:02:42]:
Hold on.

Eldar [01:02:42]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:02:43]:
However, I am consciously under the wrong imp. Impression. Right.

Katherine [01:02:48]:
But I thought that the impressions were only in the subconscious, like when you guys were explaining it to me.

Eldar [01:02:53]:
The wrong impressions?

Katherine [01:02:55]:
Yeah, like those. Those.

Toly [01:02:56]:
No, you could also be perceptions, thinking about things and beyond the wrong subconscious.

Katherine [01:03:01]:
Right.

Toly [01:03:02]:
No, I think that you could be thinking about things right now and be under the wrong impression. Right.

Mike [01:03:07]:
Like.

Toly [01:03:07]:
Like, for example.

Katherine [01:03:08]:
Or subconsciously.

Toly [01:03:09]:
Like, for. For example. Let's see if I could try to really just to. To. To catch a situation.

Mike [01:03:20]:
It's like. Are you saying that it's raining on your head and. But you look up, you don't see rain? Is that what you're saying?

Toly [01:03:27]:
Like, let's see a situation that, like, she's having a conversation with her mom. Let's say.

Eldar [01:03:37]:
I don't see how you. You won't talk about guilt again. You're gonna. You're gonna.

Toly [01:03:40]:
Yeah, I'm trying not.

Eldar [01:03:41]:
Not.

Toly [01:03:42]:
Not to talk about.

Katherine [01:03:42]:
Especially when it comes to.

Eldar [01:03:44]:
To.

Katherine [01:03:44]:
With my mom, when I do have my moments.

Toly [01:03:47]:
Yeah.

Katherine [01:03:47]:
My. When I'm not, you know, when I snap at her or whatever, what I feel instantly is guilt. That's always it.

Toly [01:03:55]:
Okay.

Katherine [01:03:55]:
That's what I always feel.

Toly [01:03:57]:
Are there any other emotions that you feel with scenarios like that? Like, with. With your mom? With my mom, like, other than guilt.

Katherine [01:04:04]:
If I snap, if I'm not, like.

Toly [01:04:07]:
No, just like, in general, where. Where. Where it's like you did something that was kind of automatic, and it did not. Yeah. And it did not invoke guilt.

Eldar [01:04:16]:
Frustration.

Toly [01:04:17]:
Okay, yeah, look, let's bring up frustration. There was a frustrating.

Eldar [01:04:21]:
What's called moment with yourself. Right. You could say, like, oh, I know better. Like, you know, you're like, I know I shouldn't have said this, but you did.

Toly [01:04:28]:
No, no, no, no, no. How about a situation where.

Eldar [01:04:32]:
How about this? She does this a lot. She'll say more things that she should. Like her mom. She's in the conversation with her mom, and then she'll blurt something out that she shouldn't have said, and then her mom takes her and goes so far with it.

Katherine [01:04:42]:
Yep.

Eldar [01:04:43]:
So then she.

Toly [01:04:44]:
Has there been a moment, a moment where.

Eldar [01:04:46]:
Where she.

Toly [01:04:46]:
Where she's been frustrated with her mom, and she felt. When she started thinking about it on her own, she actually felt that this frustration came from her mom. Like, it was actually her mom that was frustrating her and not her inability to deal, for example, with like.

Eldar [01:05:01]:
Maybe that would be the correct. Maybe in the beginning.

Toly [01:05:03]:
Okay.

Eldar [01:05:03]:
Maybe.

Toly [01:05:04]:
So an individual like that.

Eldar [01:05:06]:
Yeah, that sounds like that Got it wrong.

Toly [01:05:08]:
Yes, but they're still. But they're still, like, in what they consider to be in their world, a conscious state, thinking about sleep.

Eldar [01:05:16]:
You give me a perfect example of. Yeah, I understand the two different things.

Toly [01:05:19]:
Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Mike [01:05:20]:
Somebody conscious, if they're doing the.

Eldar [01:05:22]:
Yeah. If they have the truth wrong. Okay, so now the separation is what I'm saying, the guilt example is the same separation between the subconscious and the conscious. That switches on real quick, right when she's like, hey, I actually messed up here. And that's the thinking individual that's conscious right now of the thing and experiencing the right emotion in that moment. Yeah, it's a little bit too late, unfortunately.

Mike [01:05:41]:
Right.

Eldar [01:05:42]:
She now owes herself an apology or her mom an apology and shit like that.

Toly [01:05:45]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:05:46]:
But she's nonetheless is now awake.

Toly [01:05:49]:
Okay, so you're saying that if we use the word, that individual is conscious in a particular moment, then they have to be lined up with the truth.

Eldar [01:05:58]:
Yes.

Toly [01:05:58]:
Okay. And anything else. Are sleeping individuals correct?

Eldar [01:06:02]:
Yes.

Toly [01:06:03]:
So what is the difference between a subconscious, a subconscious reaction to something and a sleeping individual? Is there a difference?

Eldar [01:06:11]:
No, there's no difference. The same thing.

Toly [01:06:12]:
Okay, yeah, see, I was talking about it that there, there is a difference.

Mike [01:06:15]:
Oh, there is a difference between a sleeping subconscious.

Eldar [01:06:21]:
Yeah, it's the same thing.

Toly [01:06:22]:
Yeah, then. Then it's like a sleepy subconscious.

Eldar [01:06:25]:
Yeah, sleepy Joe.

Toly [01:06:26]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because like I'm saying that there, there's individuals that, like, they react in particular ways and then they try to think about things, but they have it all wrong to begin with. Yeah, yeah, they're going to be thinking about things.

Mike [01:06:47]:
They're just wrong about them.

Toly [01:06:48]:
Like this is a solution to this and they're wrong about it.

Mike [01:06:53]:
Yeah. But unless you have. In a conversation and. Yeah. If you're having a conversation with somebody else and they intentionally giving you the wrong. Not the truth, but the opposite, then I can see that situation. But that's like a psychopathic situation.

Toly [01:07:11]:
Okay. All right, so I guess, like, how can we reroute this back? So what, like when it comes to working on this or solving this. Yeah, I mean, what, what, what would you do, Elder? Like, the good.

Eldar [01:07:23]:
The good first step. I think the good first step is to realize that we actually do have the subconscious thing that we sometimes operate out of, and we can identify those subconscious states by identifying certain automatic responses that we do have. Like the traffic situation, like the mom situation.

Toly [01:07:39]:
And it's fair to say that we cannot bring these up. Like, we cannot bring up subconscious things that are happening until they affect us consciously.

Eldar [01:07:49]:
I would say that, yeah. Yes. Because what I'm talking about when I come talking about subconscious automatic responses is the undesirable responses on the conscious. In the conscious plane. Meaning in the conscious plane where we're sitting right here right now, we're most likely are not gonna give each other the finger. Right. For example. Right.

Eldar [01:08:04]:
To get a bad response.

Toly [01:08:05]:
Right.

Eldar [01:08:06]:
We're probably gonna be more. More so polite.

Toly [01:08:07]:
However.

Eldar [01:08:08]:
Right. However, right next tomorrow or whatever, or the day passes or whatever, there could be a possibility where this does happen. You know what I mean? You hope that you understand where that happens or you can prevent that from happening in the first place. You know what I'm saying? So you want to be able to. I mean, it's a matter of having self control kind of thing and being able to be more in a conscious state. So the first step, I think is to realize that we do have these wrong perceptions that sometimes we work out of. And because out of those wrong perceptions we will have the wrong responses. And those wrong responses to those situations in the reality will give us emotional states that are not so desirable.

Eldar [01:08:46]:
You know what I'm saying?

Toly [01:08:47]:
So you agree that there's first a perception that begins with. Then comes the response.

Eldar [01:08:52]:
Yes.

Toly [01:08:53]:
Then comes a potential perception again.

Eldar [01:08:55]:
Right? I wasn't talking about that just now. You're just leading me towards that. Okay, I wasn't agreeing with this at all. I'm saying is that first of all there's perceptions that we have and if they lead us to wrong emotions that we're. That are undesired for us. Yeah, you know, we, that's. That's a, that's a good sign for us to start evaluating our life and to find out like what else is out there that is leading me to behave in such a way that is undesirable. That's not making me happy.

Eldar [01:09:20]:
Right. You have plenty of those examples with your mom, for example, you know, so if you're. That's a good step. That's a good, like, okay, cool. I have this. I am a little bit tainted. I need help. That's the first step.

Toly [01:09:31]:
Yeah, but see, that's awareness.

Eldar [01:09:33]:
That's awareness. Correct. That's awareness of your negatives or your subconscious.

Katherine [01:09:39]:
Like that's the first step.

Eldar [01:09:41]:
Your awareness that you are flawed.

Katherine [01:09:43]:
You have this thing I'm messing up, I'm doing something wrong and I need to change it.

Eldar [01:09:46]:
Correct. That's the first step. I would say that first thing you want to identify that you are actually are under some wrong perceptions and understandings and assumptions and stuff like that about life, about reality. Somewhere. Somewhere, yeah. Okay. In hopes that then you can buy time, right? Find the time, right. What Catherine's doing right now, right.

Eldar [01:10:08]:
She's bought a little bit of time, right, for herself right now. Right. I mean, we together bought this time, right, by being together in love and supporting one another, that she can now be privy to. Open up and find these things. Find the little, you know, open up those rocks and see what's underneath them, you know what I mean? Because there's stuff that's hiding there, you know, hopefully you have the time in order to look for those wrong perceptions.

Toly [01:10:33]:
So would you say that suffering only occurs to unconscious individuals in those moments?

Eldar [01:10:43]:
Yeah, but it's blissful, you know, like it's. Ignorance is bliss, you know, it's like that.

Toly [01:10:47]:
It doesn't feel that way.

Eldar [01:10:48]:
It doesn't feel that way to individual who, Who. Who teeters, goes back and forth.

Toly [01:10:52]:
Yeah, yeah, I guess the guilt, you understand?

Eldar [01:10:54]:
Now she knows. Now she knows. So what happens is, right, Catherine knows that there's going to be another interaction with her mom sooner or later.

Toly [01:11:00]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:11:01]:
And now Catherine also knows somewhere in her conscious or subconscious, Right. That there's a good response and there's a bad response.

Toly [01:11:07]:
So then what do you think? What was happening before when she wasn't able to identify those things? Like what? What?

Eldar [01:11:12]:
Oh, she was completely clueless.

Toly [01:11:13]:
She was. Before there'd be bad interactions.

Eldar [01:11:16]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:11:16]:
Then what?

Eldar [01:11:17]:
And she would have very prolonged time periods of time of where she was under the wrong impression, feeling a certain type of way, like Mike did, right. For that, for the whole day or two before he saw you next time or next week, she was under impression that, hey, totally, you hate him. Why do you. So he comes to you, says, why do you hate me? So he lived that for that. For that time. He lived it. So she was living those things up until she makes sense of it. It could be long periods of time.

Katherine [01:11:44]:
It could be a whole lifetime.

Eldar [01:11:46]:
Oh, yeah, it could be a whole lifetime. Yeah. So that's my first. My suggestions would be that no, okay, so know that you are tainted. So then to get the time right, number one, know that you have these things in you living today that are gonna. They're gonna solicit the wrong emotion, then the emotion is gonna beat you up. Know that. Number two, try to find some time.

Eldar [01:12:07]:
Try to buy yourself some time, you know what I mean? Because we're busy. Everybody's busy.

Katherine [01:12:11]:
Work this and that there's no. There's no resolution if you don't actually.

Eldar [01:12:16]:
Put in the work 100%. But in order to put in the work, number one, you want to do it, and number two, have the time to do it.

Toly [01:12:24]:
So what led you to believe that there is a different way to begin with?

Katherine [01:12:29]:
What do you mean?

Toly [01:12:30]:
Like, what led you to believe that? What step gets you into teetering?

Katherine [01:12:40]:
What do you mean?

Mike [01:12:42]:
He's asking you, how'd you figure out that you.

Eldar [01:12:44]:
You can actually do better?

Toly [01:12:46]:
Oh, yeah, like what. What made you feel like that that is possible?

Katherine [01:12:50]:
I had a rock bottom. And through that rock bottom, I sought out therapy. And through help, you know, with, like, with help with guidance, I realized that, okay, there's some stuff going on with me. So through. Through that you start kind of realizing that, like, oh, I have to audit myself.

Toly [01:13:09]:
But, like, so what my thoughts. Why'd you believe me aware?

Katherine [01:13:12]:
What do you mean?

Toly [01:13:13]:
Like, like, why. Why did you. Why. Why did you buy in that that was happening to begin with?

Katherine [01:13:25]:
Oh, I mean, I wasn't happy. I didn't feel well.

Toly [01:13:28]:
Okay, so like an individual pointing those things out and they're connecting with you being unhappy.

Katherine [01:13:33]:
I knew something was wrong with me. Yeah, Like, I didn't know what I'm. I. But I knew something was really wrong with me.

Toly [01:13:39]:
But. But that was only because you were able to be unhappy and then somebody giving you reasons as to why you're unhappy.

Eldar [01:13:47]:
Oh, she herself gave herself reason.

Katherine [01:13:49]:
No, I think so.

Toly [01:13:50]:
Individuals ask certain questions.

Katherine [01:13:53]:
They start asking questions and you start. And you start talking, and then you start. As you start talking, you're like, oh, my God, I never said that out loud. Hearing it out loud makes it real. I never even thought about this that way. You actually say things without thinking it, and then you're like, holy shit. I didn't even know this was like a thing or this. This existed.

Katherine [01:14:14]:
So you start. There's inevitably. You start looking within, you start looking at yourself. And then through. Through that you find somewhere awareness, you know, because you start paying attention. You start paying attention to yourself. And then you start realizing, like, oh, my gosh, there's. I mean, there's a ton of things that I'm doing to myself that are causing, you know, thoughts or perceptions that are causing me this upset, the guilt, the.

Katherine [01:14:40]:
Everything, the frustration. And I mean, that's how it starts. You know, you kind of just.

Toly [01:14:46]:
And for you to believe, and for you to believe that this is fixable, do you think that, like, you needed that one win where it was like, okay, you actually applied like, like some. Some of these things, and it actually worked in that moment.

Tommy [01:15:00]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:15:01]:
She saw examples in real life.

Katherine [01:15:02]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:15:03]:
So now, right now she has choices.

Katherine [01:15:05]:
There's opportunities every single day.

Eldar [01:15:06]:
Now she has choices.

Katherine [01:15:07]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:15:08]:
Now she needs to figure out when she goes to sleep and when she's conscious and she makes the choice.

Katherine [01:15:12]:
I mean. I mean, I'll give you a really good example, and I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this. Is experiencing anxiety. I'll probably always experience it. Um, but I have. I've paid a lot of attention to. To. To my thoughts, and I've been challenging my thoughts a lot.

Katherine [01:15:29]:
Um, am I good at it or perfect at it? No way. But just seeing, like, from last year of how my thought patterns were to now is a big difference. So when you start seeing even, like a baby step of a difference, like, you're like, oh, my God, this is. This is real. This works.

Toly [01:15:46]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:15:46]:
Especially in the beginning process. Like the baby steps, they yield. They yield the biggest results 100%.

Toly [01:15:53]:
They're like, some of. Some of these small changes could be like.

Katherine [01:15:56]:
That baby step is monumental.

Toly [01:15:58]:
Yeah.

Katherine [01:15:58]:
For a person that is suffering every day.

Eldar [01:16:00]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:16:00]:
So you know how Socrates has. Has that quote, like, if you stumble upon a truth, right?

Eldar [01:16:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. Don't picture. Don't just pick yourself up like nothing happened. Examine that truth. Take your time. Okay. And why.

Toly [01:16:14]:
Why do you think it's possible to. To do that, though? Like, why do you think it's possible to stumble upon it and not pick it up?

Eldar [01:16:21]:
See, I think that he. With that statement, I think he was probably trying to summon a little bit more courage in people. You know what I mean?

Katherine [01:16:27]:
That say you have to be bravery to.

Toly [01:16:31]:
Know what I'm saying? Like, why do you think it's possible to stumble upon the truth and not immediately pick it up?

Eldar [01:16:36]:
I'm trying to get there. Okay, so, you know, he was trying to get you to be brave because what. Because it's extremely scary to start digging up all the dirt about yourself because you're dirty and it's very ugly.

Katherine [01:16:48]:
It's extreme vulnerability. You know how everyone throws around the word vulnerable? Vulnerable.

Eldar [01:16:52]:
Yeah. You don't want to see yourself in that light because it's a very scary moment. You know what I mean? In time to see yourself and you.

Katherine [01:16:58]:
Have to take that pride and you gotta throw it away, you know?

Mike [01:17:01]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:17:01]:
Yeah. That's interesting.

Eldar [01:17:04]:
You know, so, yeah, you know, because then you have to face yourself truly.

Katherine [01:17:09]:
Yep.

Toly [01:17:09]:
Yeah. But then there comes A tipping point where it's like the ugliness that, like, you have in that thing is then, like, overrided right by like, the. The great things that have that happen from you taking that truth and 100%.

Eldar [01:17:22]:
And I think that's why Mike's example is so good. When he went on that journey of being brave in that moment when he was like, you know, look, this is my. This is my. This is my laundry. It's pretty dirty. You know what I mean? It was clearly dirty. And like, he had to, like, you know, be brave about it to say that. You know what? Let's put it all on the line here in order to get to a better place.

Eldar [01:17:41]:
You know what I mean? But for a long time, he stumbled upon the truth and ran away. Stumbled upon the truth. Right away he's like, I don't want to do this. It was too much. You'd run away, throw a fit, you know what I'm saying? But, you know, you could talk about it probably a little bit more where you finally, like, found the courage to stick through it.

Tommy [01:18:00]:
That's hard.

Eldar [01:18:00]:
You know what I'm saying? And like, okay, it is what it is. Like, I'm just gonna face this demon, you know, once and for all and, you know, get rid of it. Get rid of him from your house? Yeah, you know that, that. That good. The movie when he, you know, was on the tower. Right. Peaceful warrior. He was committing suicide, you know, in that sense.

Mike [01:18:19]:
Yeah, yeah.

Katherine [01:18:22]:
It sounds dramatic like committing suicide.

Eldar [01:18:24]:
Yeah, it's literally. Yeah.

Mike [01:18:25]:
I don't know what it was that.

Toly [01:18:26]:
Did the click for me kill slowly.

Katherine [01:18:28]:
All the.

Mike [01:18:29]:
But yeah, maybe it was. There was a realization.

Eldar [01:18:35]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:18:35]:
Yeah, maybe I realized that I couldn't get the things that I wanted from my life the way that I was doing them anymore.

Eldar [01:18:43]:
Yeah. Okay. That's it.

Mike [01:18:44]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:18:44]:
Gigs up.

Mike [01:18:45]:
Yeah, I think that's what it was.

Katherine [01:18:49]:
You know, it was your buy in moment where you were just like, all right, like, I've buying into maybe the wrong thing and now I gotta change your direction.

Toly [01:18:56]:
Yeah. I'm not sure if it's like. If it's ever like one moment where you just like.

Eldar [01:19:03]:
Yeah, definitely. Accumulation of.

Mike [01:19:05]:
But there is. Maybe there's like the big. The big click.

Toly [01:19:09]:
Yeah, yeah.

Mike [01:19:16]:
Yeah. Well, I'm listening to Cat, like a lot of what you said. Yeah. What you're saying is. I think a lot of it has to do with like. I think a lot of these.

Eldar [01:19:26]:
The.

Mike [01:19:27]:
What Cal was saying. And the whole last few minutes I'm talking, I think because we know what good is, a good life. We experience glimpses of it or more or less sometimes we also know how bad is. And I think we might be pre wired to always look for good, to always seek pleasure, which is a good life, good thing. And when we have suffering and pain, whether with her mom, daily directions those things, you don't realize that you can just, just I guess pick it up and move forward. Eventually you have to pick it up.

Katherine [01:20:01]:
And examine it in the process.

Mike [01:20:03]:
Because if you want to extend the happiness.

Eldar [01:20:06]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:20:06]:
You know, because if you have suffering, you cannot be happy. You, you can't have both at the same time at least. I don't know.

Eldar [01:20:13]:
I agree with that.

Katherine [01:20:14]:
I think, I think when you're on this journey too of like, you know, maybe having some awareness and wanting to improve on things, when you do have like a wrench in the process, it's only all the more disappointing because you're striving for something different.

Eldar [01:20:29]:
Yeah.

Katherine [01:20:31]:
So ignorance is, that goes back to. I guess ignorance is bliss. It's true. You know, once, once you're a bit more aware and you keep on stumbling on the same thing, it just pushes you to really want to really want to improve it.

Mike [01:20:44]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess it becomes hard to put on, put on the same show for yourself and others that you know when you, because you know, like when you know you're happy, everything's great and you know, it's not sustainable. It's hard to keep putting on that show for yourself that without like, you know, loose ends.

Eldar [01:21:13]:
Yeah. You see how funny it is that you're, you know, you leave. Everything leads to you getting exhausted. Right. So yeah, you're describing a rock bottom. You're getting fed up where it's like you're just so tired of like, you.

Mike [01:21:24]:
Know, like change because you ultimately, I.

Eldar [01:21:28]:
Mean, I guess then you have to get good at getting to the rock bottom quicker. You know what I mean?

Toly [01:21:34]:
Yes.

Mike [01:21:34]:
Touch it real quick.

Eldar [01:21:35]:
Okay. Like that's out of here.

Katherine [01:21:36]:
Bounce back even faster. But I guess the bounce back is.

Mike [01:21:39]:
I'm not sure if it ties in but you know, rock bottom or humbling, you know.

Eldar [01:21:44]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:21:45]:
Is, is it related in the situation? You know, because I think that's the one thing that I've learned from this is like for problems that I'd like to solve in my life, I think it's important to be humble.

Toly [01:21:56]:
And in a way I think it's either or.

Mike [01:22:00]:
But I, but I think when you do humble yourself, you genuinely humble yourself, you are able to Recreate rock bottom without the time.

Toly [01:22:11]:
Yeah, well, that. That's what I'm saying. It's either or. Because when you hit rock bottom, it's a forceful, humble. Like, that's it.

Eldar [01:22:17]:
Like, this is it.

Mike [01:22:18]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:22:19]:
There's no other way that you could go other than humbleness. Right. But if you can summon being humble without obviously hitting rock bottom, that you don't have to go down that. That. Like, that. That. I guess.

Mike [01:22:32]:
I think it's. I'm not sure.

Eldar [01:22:35]:
What.

Mike [01:22:35]:
You don't. I'm not sure. Does being humbled. Is that not hitting rock bottom to say to yourself and others that you don't know. I mean, to put your ego down, all this pride you've been carrying for all your years, and to say, you know what? Actually in this. I don't know, you don't think that's.

Eldar [01:22:50]:
Why that's part of it?

Mike [01:22:51]:
Yeah, that's part of it.

Eldar [01:22:52]:
For those people who, like you said, have the pride and who's been like, you know, kind of like on their own. Yeah.

Toly [01:22:57]:
That could be maybe hitting. Yeah. I think maybe just like, if we're talking about the word hitting rock bottom, it feels like it's not a. It's not a. Like you. You did not consciously do.

Eldar [01:23:12]:
Do this.

Toly [01:23:13]:
Like, it feels like this is just like.

Mike [01:23:15]:
Like, oh, you think you just landed there by accident.

Toly [01:23:19]:
No, no, no, no. Not. Not by accident, but it's like a mere chance. It's like a combination of events. Like. Yeah, hitting rock bottom is like a. Yeah. A combination of events that happened that led you to a particular place.

Toly [01:23:32]:
But it's not like you were consciously aiming to hit rock. Rock bottom. Right where. I feel like if you could humble yourself, I think that you are consciously trying to humble yourself so that you don't have to. Like, you could consider that your rock bottom, if you want to say it. But I think I'm viewing it as like. Like it. Looking at it from the side, it feels like a better path to humble yourself.

Mike [01:23:59]:
It sounds like the higher road and.

Toly [01:24:01]:
To learn rather than like. Like the go down the rock bottom, which is like almost like a forceful path.

Eldar [01:24:08]:
I feel like, well, check this out. Right. You know, you were talking about this forceful path or whatever, hitting rock bottom. Well, I was thinking about what you said about getting tired of getting it wrong. Right. Trying to get the destination but getting it wrong. I thought about give. We were giving Mike the opportunity to go get it wrong.

Eldar [01:24:25]:
You know what I'm saying? What he was trying to get out of. Right. Out of relationships. And stuff like that. Like, okay, cool. You want to go test out your theory? Go do it. Go do it, Go do it. We're constantly.

Eldar [01:24:34]:
We're giving them the right. Hey, you have perceptions, Mike. Go test them out and see if you're gonna get that what you wanted. Right. And you exhausted them. And that's where his rock bottom was lying, where he finally is like, you know, what the hell's wrong with me? You know, keep trying my stuff, and it's not working. I'm not receiving that, which I said. So therefore I need to try out something different.

Eldar [01:24:52]:
And that's why I opened up his rock bottom. Say, you know what? Enough is enough of this nonsense.

Toly [01:24:56]:
So it is.

Eldar [01:24:57]:
Is he convinced himself.

Toly [01:24:58]:
So then is. Is the purpose of. Like is the purpose of having desires is to hit rock bottom.

Katherine [01:25:08]:
Is the purpose.

Toly [01:25:09]:
Like, is the purpose of desires. Does like that can lead you there?

Eldar [01:25:13]:
Yeah. I'm not sure if the purpose of the desires is to hit rock bottom. I'm not sure about that.

Toly [01:25:17]:
Because you should not have any desires. Right. Other than lightning.

Eldar [01:25:20]:
Right.

Toly [01:25:21]:
Like, technically, I guess.

Eldar [01:25:22]:
Right. Depends. Yeah. If you're talking about that kind of stuff. Yeah, right. Philosophy and stuff.

Toly [01:25:27]:
Yeah, right. So then the purpose of desires is to hit rock bottom is to fail. Yeah. If you're going to have desires, then you're. Then you're desiring to fail. Right. To have desires to begin with. Right?

Eldar [01:25:43]:
Yeah, it's like a tricky thing.

Toly [01:25:44]:
Yeah, yeah.

Mike [01:25:44]:
Depending what kind of desires too. Right.

Eldar [01:25:46]:
Yeah, right.

Toly [01:25:47]:
Because like, that.

Mike [01:25:48]:
That.

Toly [01:25:49]:
That's where it will. I guess that philosophy, like having desires leads you to failure, right?

Eldar [01:25:55]:
Yeah, you could say that in a way.

Mike [01:25:58]:
Yeah. But see, I guess. Yeah. Like when you hit rock bottom, the. Hitting the rock bottom forces to be humble.

Eldar [01:26:06]:
Right. Potentially good. It could mean that you won't. You won't come up with a second version.

Toly [01:26:12]:
Yeah, no, I think second act. No, no, no, no, no. But then that's not rock bottom, I think.

Mike [01:26:17]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:26:17]:
I think true rock bottom does force you to be humble. Yeah.

Eldar [01:26:20]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:26:20]:
The ultimate, like, rock bottom, I guess.

Katherine [01:26:22]:
I guess, I guess a rephrasing of like a dark time in your life or, you know, I felt like I was drowning. That's how I felt.

Toly [01:26:33]:
Yeah. I. I think the goal is to summon and to buy into being humble to avoid going down the more, I.

Eldar [01:26:42]:
Think, dirtier path to the individual who is experiencing that. What she's talking about. They don't understand the definition of being humble, though.

Toly [01:26:49]:
Oh, 1, 1, 1, 100%. But I'm saying that, like, the way.

Eldar [01:26:51]:
You understanding it now and the way you're feeling and the way he was feeling, there's no way you could, I don't think there's no way you could communicate to that person and say, hey, you're at the rock bottom. Just be humble.

Mike [01:27:00]:
Like, you know, recreate it and you can't force it.

Toly [01:27:05]:
No, I'm saying. Yeah, I, I, it's like also saying.

Katherine [01:27:07]:
Hey, by being humble you will be able to avoid a rock bottom.

Eldar [01:27:11]:
Yeah.

Katherine [01:27:12]:
I don't know.

Eldar [01:27:13]:
Oh, no, I think that by being humble, I think you can avoid rock bottom.

Katherine [01:27:16]:
Yeah, yeah. I think it would take that and more.

Eldar [01:27:19]:
Well, no, being humble almost forces you to ask questions. Right. And to be, to not draw conclusions. Right.

Toly [01:27:25]:
Yeah, yeah. To get to the bottom also.

Katherine [01:27:27]:
Are you saying that humility comes with awareness all also.

Eldar [01:27:31]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katherine [01:27:33]:
Go hand in hand. I thought they were too.

Mike [01:27:35]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:27:35]:
I think that if you look at any example where like you're either heading towards rock bottom or you hit rock bottom is because in that example you had an extremely high E ego and you were not willing to ask for help, to seek for help. You, you, you were not open to help, like at all. You, you were just, you don't know how to ask. Yeah, yeah. So I think being humble. Yeah. Automatically leads to. Yeah.

Toly [01:27:58]:
Questions, thinking, awareness.

Eldar [01:28:00]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:28:02]:
Open, like being open. Right. Getting to a point where you hit rock bottom. The only reason that I was hit to begin with is probably being closed, not being humble, having a big ego.

Eldar [01:28:13]:
Right. All that, like.

Toly [01:28:16]:
Yeah, but what, what I was saying that it seems like the goal is obviously to be as humble as possible in as many areas as possible, knowing that if you're not willing to do, do that, then you're probably going to forcefully eventually have to go down the road of hitting a rock bottom.

Eldar [01:28:37]:
Yeah. Right. Are you trying to like scare the person?

Toly [01:28:42]:
No.

Eldar [01:28:42]:
With this kind of like.

Toly [01:28:43]:
Well, it should be scary. Yeah.

Eldar [01:28:46]:
Because it is scary.

Katherine [01:28:48]:
That could become circular and then you.

Toly [01:28:50]:
Can go back into this.

Eldar [01:28:51]:
He said, look, if you're not going to perception of humility, you're ready, it's over for you.

Toly [01:28:55]:
Yeah. You're going to hit.

Eldar [01:28:56]:
That's what he said. Rock bottom.

Mike [01:28:57]:
Yes. You know, like it.

Toly [01:28:59]:
Right. Because the paradox of humbling yourself is kind of bowing down. Right?

Eldar [01:29:05]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:29:05]:
Like we, we could say that. Right. Is bowing down. When you hit rock bottom, you're going to get someone that's going to take your neck and go like this and it's going to hold it there.

Eldar [01:29:15]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:29:16]:
So do you want someone to do that basically like forcibly make you bow, right?

Eldar [01:29:22]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:29:22]:
Or do you want to do it yourself? The forcibly thing is like an unlike. It's a shitty scenario, but again, it's like learning through pain.

Eldar [01:29:32]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:29:32]:
You're just going to keep getting hit over and over again until your neck just locks in that position. And you're going to bow down.

Mike [01:29:38]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:29:38]:
And you're going to be humble at that point regardless. Sometimes.

Eldar [01:29:43]:
But.

Toly [01:29:43]:
But I think the problem with like, the ego and with thinking that, you know and stuff like that is thinking that there's a third way. I think that's where the problem exists.

Eldar [01:29:52]:
To go around it.

Toly [01:29:53]:
Yes. I think that when we're not willing to be humble.

Eldar [01:29:56]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:29:56]:
But we also don't want to go down the rock bottom way. We are convinced that there is like a third path that you can take that will not require you to be humble and not require you to hit rock bottom.

Eldar [01:30:06]:
Yeah. So it's like, nonetheless, you're going to hit that trap.

Toly [01:30:09]:
Yeah. So like, for example, like, in Mike's way of exhausting these different things, I think during that time he was convinced that, like, he doesn't have to be humble and he doesn't have to hit rock bottom, that there's this third way that he could just go do his thing and accomplish what he accomplished.

Eldar [01:30:23]:
I think that's why I think that to a degree, we provided a shortcut with like, hey, like, okay, Mike, you want to test out those theories? You could go test out those theories.

Toly [01:30:30]:
Yeah, I. Yeah, that. That's what I feel is that like the humble ways are like, that's the path to victory. And then the. The rock bottom weight is like a cliff that you keep walking and then you eventually hit into a giant hole and you're actually in that hole. And this third way is. Is kind of how that. That CS game was where where you just like die and you just respond again and you die and you just respond.

Eldar [01:30:53]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:30:54]:
It's like an event over and over, a loop of like nothing is almost happening.

Eldar [01:30:57]:
Like, it's just like a. Yeah.

Toly [01:30:59]:
It's like a nothingness.

Mike [01:31:01]:
Being humbled. It just I think expedite the time.

Eldar [01:31:03]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:31:04]:
You know, it's a shorter path.

Toly [01:31:07]:
If you're convinced. Yeah. If you're convinced of that.

Eldar [01:31:09]:
But you know what? But you know what? If you examine even individuals who are not humble, their progression, even though might take longer in the moments in that progression, they still get humble within those small moments because somewhere down the line in those moments, they're complaining to somebody and Somebody's teaching them something and they have to sit there and nod. Yeah, you understand? Because somebody else is hungry.

Toly [01:31:35]:
In moments of what you were saying.

Eldar [01:31:37]:
Like there's Mike said you can expedite the process of, you know, getting yourself out of the rock bottom by humbling yourself. And, you know, if you stay humble, you have expedition to, you know, awareness, awareness, state and more happiness. Faster.

Mike [01:31:50]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:31:51]:
What I'm saying is that even if you're not humble. Right. Okay. Even if you're not humble and you're going through life, life is still teaching you. In those moments where, like, if you're still progressing but very slowly, in those little moments, you're still getting humbled somewhere or the other life is humbling you. In those little moments, you know, somebody's going to teach you something. Somebody's going to explain something to you even though you might not getting it from the source. Right.

Eldar [01:32:14]:
Whatever source that you're looking for originally, just say it was a book of, say, the Bible, for example. You don't want to read the Bible. No problem. No problem. That was your fast path to being humble. No problem. Go live your life. Everything that's in the Bible is crammed in.

Eldar [01:32:27]:
Right. For example, without knowledge. Now life has the same knowledge. Now you just have to experience it. Right. Who. How do you want to do it?

Toly [01:32:35]:
What, what justified bad associations do people have with being humble?

Eldar [01:32:40]:
Justified what?

Toly [01:32:41]:
Like, what, what justified bad, like, associations do people have to themselves?

Eldar [01:32:48]:
One person. There's not one person that has any.

Mike [01:32:51]:
The only person who has a problem with no ego.

Toly [01:32:53]:
Themselves. Yeah. Like, how do they.

Eldar [01:32:55]:
Nobody.

Toly [01:32:55]:
No, no, but like, so why do people, like, why do people, like, why is it difficult for people don't have.

Mike [01:33:02]:
A problem with, with being humble? The ego has the problem.

Toly [01:33:05]:
But so.

Mike [01:33:06]:
No.

Toly [01:33:06]:
Yeah, well. Well, yeah, but I'm saying that, like, do you guys think.

Eldar [01:33:09]:
I don't think anybody. If you aligned like a million people and say, hey, like, what's wrong with humble? I don't think nobody, I don't think.

Mike [01:33:15]:
Anybody would say that with a reason.

Eldar [01:33:16]:
That's being humble is bad.

Toly [01:33:18]:
But do they. Are there not, like, inherently it's good. Yeah, but like, are they not aligning with being. Like, are people not humble because their, their association with what it actually means to be humble is either a bad one or are they like, like, like, I feel like almost like.

Mike [01:33:37]:
No, they don't. I don't think that they actually know that they need to be humbled.

Eldar [01:33:40]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:33:41]:
To begin with.

Mike [01:33:42]:
Yes, I think so you don't feel.

Toly [01:33:44]:
That people Might be thinking that, like being humble means that not having control. And because I don't have control, I'm not willing to be humble.

Eldar [01:33:53]:
It's possible that might be one of the reasons.

Toly [01:33:54]:
Yes, because like in the example that you brought up with a person who's not willing to be humble, but they'll. But they're still progressing.

Eldar [01:34:01]:
They could take a small.

Toly [01:34:02]:
Sounds like.

Eldar [01:34:03]:
Yeah, they can't take a full dose.

Toly [01:34:04]:
Of the Bible, for example.

Eldar [01:34:05]:
And I'm not saying the Bible will make you humble guys, but yeah, I'm giving you an example. It could be a crammed up version what Mike is talking about. Put yourself under a gun and really examine your life and get humble. You know what I mean? Or that life let life do that job.

Toly [01:34:19]:
So it sounds like the person who's letting life to that job from them is like they're still getting that dose of humbleness. Yeah, but they don't want to know that. That that's what's happening.

Mike [01:34:29]:
Sure, right, because.

Eldar [01:34:30]:
But that's exactly what's happening.

Toly [01:34:32]:
Yes, yes, but. So then do you think that the reason for that is that people associate with. With, with like. Yeah, yeah. Being humble is almost like a lack of control.

Eldar [01:34:43]:
And you don't have to. It's painful, I think. I think.

Toly [01:34:46]:
But is it painful? Because it is a lack of control?

Mike [01:34:50]:
See, in this thing. I don't know how to say it in a way, but I think to be humble, it's something that you need to earn. So that's why not everybody actually can employ it.

Eldar [01:35:02]:
Wow, you're looking like that.

Mike [01:35:04]:
Okay, no. Does that make any sense? No.

Eldar [01:35:07]:
I know what you're talking about.

Toly [01:35:07]:
You trying to slap someone with a fish.

Eldar [01:35:10]:
No, you almost. You almost. You're almost looking at it as a tool.

Mike [01:35:12]:
I'm looking at. It's like a combination of earning it, but also Dr. K. Dr. K.

Eldar [01:35:20]:
You.

Mike [01:35:20]:
Know he's a cheeky bugger, right?

Eldar [01:35:22]:
D. He's a cheeky bugger. He's feeling himself.

Mike [01:35:26]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:35:26]:
He's having too much fun.

Mike [01:35:28]:
Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah. I feel like it's. It's a combination of that, like where you kind of have to earn, earn the. Earn, deserve. I don't know. To be humble.

Eldar [01:35:43]:
Earn the humble pie.

Toly [01:35:46]:
And how do you earn to be humble?

Mike [01:35:47]:
You have to, you have to prove to yourself and others that you actually want what you say you want, you know, like you're worthy of being humble.

Eldar [01:35:55]:
What? That's different.

Mike [01:35:58]:
Yeah, I don't know.

Eldar [01:35:59]:
That's different. That's different. Yeah, yeah. Like that's different.

Toly [01:36:04]:
So how do you consciously want to be humble?

Mike [01:36:07]:
How do you consciously want.

Eldar [01:36:09]:
Yeah. Can you. Yeah, like. Yeah. That's interesting.

Toly [01:36:11]:
Yeah. Because based on what Mike is saying, that you can't consciously want to be humble.

Eldar [01:36:15]:
Right?

Mike [01:36:17]:
Yeah, I guess in the sense that like, if you want to live the life that, that you know, that you imagine, and if it's a very good life.

Toly [01:36:30]:
Mm.

Mike [01:36:30]:
You can't just get it, you gotta deserve it, you gotta earn it. And I think that is associated with being humble. Make any sense?

Eldar [01:36:41]:
Say it again.

Mike [01:36:43]:
Like, if you would like to live the life that you want to live.

Toly [01:36:46]:
Okay.

Mike [01:36:47]:
And if it's a life that like, that's based, that's rooted in truth, that you live in a good life, you live in virtuous life.

Eldar [01:36:54]:
Okay.

Mike [01:36:57]:
If you want to earn that life or deserve that life or to live that life.

Eldar [01:37:00]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:37:01]:
You have to earn it and deserve it through humility with like you. You're not going to be given it.

Toly [01:37:08]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:37:08]:
And the way to achieve it, to get it, is by being humble.

Eldar [01:37:13]:
Wow. Okay.

Toly [01:37:14]:
Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure if it quites exactly, but I'm gonna have to give you guys a. A movie, a reference.

Mike [01:37:21]:
Oh, yeah.

Toly [01:37:22]:
All right. I'm sure you guys have all seen the, like the, the cartoon version of Hercules.

Mike [01:37:28]:
Oh, God, no, I haven't seen it.

Eldar [01:37:29]:
No, I.

Toly [01:37:30]:
Did you have it not see it?

Mike [01:37:31]:
No.

Toly [01:37:32]:
You've seen it all though, right?

Eldar [01:37:33]:
No.

Toly [01:37:33]:
What? You have not seen the like the, the Hercules?

Eldar [01:37:38]:
I did a long time ago. Okay.

Toly [01:37:40]:
I don't know if you guys remember, but Hercules was kind of like in like a way half man have got Josh. Right? Yeah, he was in a way, half man, half God. Right. And he always felt like a little bit out of place because like he, he, he was snatched by like Hades and like his minions, he was snatched from Mount Olympus from the gods. He was born a full God.

Eldar [01:38:07]:
Yeah, right.

Toly [01:38:08]:
Because he was rob. He was taken. And then what, what happened is that Zadies, which is Zeus's brother, who was like the God of like the underworld, right. Got his minions to go up there and go kidnap him. Right?

Eldar [01:38:19]:
Zeus's brother?

Toly [01:38:21]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:38:22]:
Why did he do that?

Toly [01:38:23]:
Well, because he wanted to. To overthrow Zeus.

Eldar [01:38:25]:
Yeah, but his brother.

Toly [01:38:27]:
Yeah, but he, he hates him.

Mike [01:38:28]:
He wanted to take.

Eldar [01:38:29]:
Why did he hate him?

Toly [01:38:29]:
Because he wants to take over the show. He's jealous.

Mike [01:38:32]:
Zeus is like the king Dingling.

Eldar [01:38:35]:
They are gods.

Toly [01:38:37]:
Zeus is like the head of the head.

Eldar [01:38:39]:
No, sure. But why are gods experiencing jealousy?

Mike [01:38:43]:
There's A cartoon?

Toly [01:38:44]:
Well, I'm not sure if it's.

Katherine [01:38:47]:
It's Greek mythology.

Toly [01:38:48]:
Yeah. Like, he wanted to take over his shit. Like he, like. Because I think that he got. Oh, okay. So I think it. Maybe it might be because Zeus kind of put his brother as head of the underworld and he didn't want to be in the underworld.

Eldar [01:39:00]:
Zeus put him in the underworld.

Toly [01:39:01]:
Zeus put his brother to be like the God of the underworld.

Eldar [01:39:04]:
That's bad. Why do you put him in the. Of the underworld?

Toly [01:39:08]:
Let me give you my example.

Eldar [01:39:10]:
Okay, cool.

Toly [01:39:10]:
Right? Right.

Eldar [01:39:13]:
It sounds like you don't know your.

Toly [01:39:14]:
When it come. Yeah, but that wasn't what I was like.

Eldar [01:39:17]:
I know, but when I was talking about some history.

Toly [01:39:19]:
Yeah. Just because I'm talking about something does not mean that I. What? Oh, okay. All right, baby, you got to hear this example, though.

Katherine [01:39:27]:
If he lets you finish, then.

Toly [01:39:29]:
Damn. Yeah, so, okay, so. So Z hires his minions to go kidnap Zeus's son, right? And they have to give him this. This, like, liquid to drink to turn him from a God to a man. And what happened? Convert him, right? And what happens? And he's a baby, so they put in like a bottle and they're giving it to him on unearth, right? And what happens is that, like, they're looking for him. They're looking for him and he's drinking this bottle and the minions bounce, thinking that he finished the whole thing, but he left a drop. So he didn't get converted completely to a man.

Eldar [01:40:04]:
Okay, Right.

Toly [01:40:05]:
He left the godly feature, so he became half man, half God. And he was adopted by humans who just found him. Like, obviously they found him in a mountain in, like a little basket, right? And they raised him, right? And his life purpose is kind of trying to figure out how to become a God, right? Because he feels like he does not belong.

Eldar [01:40:26]:
Like, that he's aware that gods do exist.

Toly [01:40:28]:
Yeah. Yes. Like, they're. They live in a world. This is back in the day, right?

Eldar [01:40:32]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:40:33]:
So he doesn't feel like he belongs. And like, he sings like, the song, you know, Like. Like, you know, singing for us. I don't belong. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Eldar [01:40:44]:
To be up there.

Toly [01:40:47]:
Yeah, right. So. So. So he sings the song and then he, like, he. He tries to go on this pursuit to become a God, like, to go back to his family, right?

Eldar [01:40:57]:
How does he know that there's back to his family?

Toly [01:40:59]:
Because, like, he knows that he doesn't belong. And then he goes to, like. Like, he goes to. No, he goes to the statue of Zeus in This big Greek temple, okay. And it's like Zeus sitting like a.

Eldar [01:41:11]:
Chair, which is him. Which is Zeus, right? Yeah.

Toly [01:41:15]:
Hercules goes to see her and he's kind of looking for answers, right? And Zeus transforms into this thing. He starts awakening and Hercules gets all scared because like this is supposed to be like you're kind of going to like a place to like almost like pray or ask for answers. But that, but that, but that not supposed to come alive. Yeah, of course it's a statue, right? But it does because Zeus comes down and he, he transforms into it, right? And the. I, I think so. So how I'm tying this together is that he wants to become. Hercules wants to become a God, right? But nobody ever like there's no outline of how, right? And he actually. And he does all these things, he becomes a hero, like you know, slays dragons, everything, right? And he actually like the moment of him becoming a God is when like he, he takes me almost like I don't know if like he sacrifices himself in the name of love and what, what happens is that he jumps into this like huge pool, right? And in the movie this is how they depict how people are dying, like they're on the way to the underworld, right? And he jumps into this pool to like try to rescue the person that he loves.

Toly [01:42:26]:
And in the process of doing that, right, right before it's his time to like die because like, like he was destined for failure to not do it yout know those like creepy one eyed laser cut like the string, you try to cut his string and once they cut a string you're dead. Right? They try to cut a string and it turns into like solid like, like it starts glowing and they can't cut it, they can't kill him. And he turns into a hero when he does this like kind of like selfless act. So it's like he was, he was his life was pursued to become a God. But there was no, there was no like, okay, like Hercules, you got to do this, slay that dragon, do that thing and you're going to become a God. He kind of did like that's where I was kind of tying it. Is that like he, he became it but nobody actually like there was no blueprint of how to do it, right. He did it through like deserving it.

Toly [01:43:21]:
Okay, does that make sense or no?

Eldar [01:43:24]:
Yeah, no, I got it. Yeah, I understand. He actually like showed that he's about that life.

Toly [01:43:29]:
He's about that life. So I think that like that that's part of it is that like There may not be. Okay, like. Okay, complete steps one through five, check them off and you're humble, right?

Eldar [01:43:39]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:43:39]:
It may be a thing of like, deserving it through. Through like. Yeah, like through your actions. Yeah, through actions. But there's not like a check mark of them that guarantee you humbleness.

Eldar [01:43:53]:
Right. Humility, being humble. So you're asking about how to become humble.

Toly [01:44:05]:
Well, well, well, I mean, I'm not asking that like in, in, in. In in general, but I'm saying that it sounds like based on what Mike is saying, is that like, for you to. To be humble, you have to deserve it. Right?

Mike [01:44:21]:
Yeah, I think, I think so. I think there's something there.

Toly [01:44:23]:
Okay.

Mike [01:44:23]:
And with something funny that. Yeah, it's funny that you guys said this to me. And that's why I use the word deserve, deserve and earn. Because when I was telling you guys that, yo, I'm ready to change, I'm ready to change, you guys said, no, you're not. You gotta, you said something. You gotta earn it.

Eldar [01:44:36]:
You gotta deserve it.

Mike [01:44:38]:
Totally's thing. And, and I, and I, you know, and I now later when I thought about that, and that's why I said to you guys like, that you. I think you have to deserve and you have to earn it. You have to show that in your actions that you actually are humble enough.

Eldar [01:44:52]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:44:53]:
Because why would you want, why would you want to get humbled? Right? Like, if you have something that you like. He loved that girl. So if you have something that you desire for your life.

Eldar [01:45:02]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:45:02]:
If that you really care about and you want to achieve that.

Eldar [01:45:04]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:45:05]:
But you've been trying to get it and you can't figure it out, but you decided to give it a crack in a different way.

Eldar [01:45:14]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:45:15]:
You have to deserve and earn to like, I guess to reach that of that what you're dreaming about or what you desire. And through like, that approach, I think you can get to. Through humbleness, you can get to those things that you want. Because when you humble yourself, you say like, hey, this is what I'm dreaming about. This is what I want, but I don't know how to get it. And you ask for people around you to help you to get there, but you have to prove to those people and to yourself that you actually want that thing. Like, you, you can't. You.

Mike [01:45:42]:
If you like, you don't just get given a good life, right. Just because like, like, you can't be a bad person and be gifted a.

Toly [01:45:50]:
Good life unless you get a small.

Mike [01:45:52]:
Loan from your father of a billion yeah. So actually was thinking about this in the morning, that you cannot be a bad person and live a good life, but if you are a good person, you live a good. Like, if you do good, you maybe you will be gifted a good life, you know, So. I don't know. That make any sense?

Eldar [01:46:14]:
It does. I was trying to extract something from where you were going.

Mike [01:46:16]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:46:17]:
Think it might have been too deep for me? Yeah.

Toly [01:46:23]:
Yeah. I think that there's an interesting moment, like, in that exchange of, like, you don't deserve it. Like, you don't. You. You're not deserving of it.

Mike [01:46:31]:
Like, I was drinking, Like, I was dreaming about something really grandiose. Right. Something really big, or what I think is big. Right.

Eldar [01:46:38]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:46:38]:
You know, to, like, live a happy life, to fall in love, to share that happiness.

Eldar [01:46:42]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:46:44]:
But I didn't realize what it actually takes for me.

Eldar [01:46:47]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:46:47]:
To. To deserve that, to earn that.

Eldar [01:46:49]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:46:50]:
You know.

Eldar [01:46:50]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:46:51]:
And you also. You say, like, you. I said this. Actually, the gift thing is that love is a gift. I think you said this to me, like, a while ago. You know, love is a gift that you like. Or maybe. Maybe something like that.

Eldar [01:47:04]:
Like.

Mike [01:47:05]:
Like, love is a gift that you get for.

Eldar [01:47:08]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:47:08]:
I don't know. For something. I don't remember what it was. For being a good boy, raising a hand, for behaving, you know, so. For, like, being, like, living and doing.

Eldar [01:47:17]:
What Gary tells you to do. That what Daddy tells you to do.

Mike [01:47:20]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Eldar [01:47:25]:
So, yeah. It's tricky. Okay.

Mike [01:47:29]:
So it doesn't make any sense.

Eldar [01:47:30]:
It does. It makes perfect sense. I understand. I just have to package properly.

Mike [01:47:33]:
All right. So when you package it in my head.

Toly [01:47:35]:
Yeah, send it over.

Mike [01:47:36]:
Send the Cliff Notes.

Eldar [01:47:37]:
Yeah. No, it's deep. For sure. It's deep.

Mike [01:47:39]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:47:40]:
It's very interesting. You know, that's.

Mike [01:47:43]:
That's. That was part of the moment that I think that made me realize that I have to hump. Like, not maybe. Maybe I wanted to humble myself, read.

Eldar [01:47:54]:
With totally's like, take on, like, yo, you might have not been ready in that moment.

Mike [01:47:58]:
In that moment. Did I agree with him?

Eldar [01:47:59]:
No. Now, do you agree with it, that at that moment that you, like, retrospect?

Mike [01:48:03]:
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Toly [01:48:04]:
Yes. Then what happened in between of, like, I viewed as, like, you wanted something great. You had the dream and you kind of almost in that moment.

Mike [01:48:12]:
Yeah. You felt, you know what? I faced myself in the mirror and I said, yo, actually, I'm a piece of. Why should I be living such a good life? And then I said, yo, I don't no longer want to be a piece of. Because I really want that life.

Toly [01:48:25]:
No, but like, how do you get denied?

Eldar [01:48:27]:
I mean, we did a lot. Wow. Yeah. If we go back and probably see, like, where the moment was.

Mike [01:48:31]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:48:31]:
About like, hey, like.

Toly [01:48:32]:
No, but like, what. What happens in that moment where you get denied and you don't agree with it, obviously, but you can, like, like I. I think I was saying that this before, like a few months.

Eldar [01:48:42]:
It's like a psychological. For sure.

Toly [01:48:44]:
It's like what happens for you to continue persevering forward.

Eldar [01:48:47]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:48:48]:
After you get denied and you don't agree with the scenario.

Eldar [01:48:52]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:48:53]:
You might have to answer that. Like you did not agree with the sentence. Right?

Mike [01:48:59]:
Yeah, but I disagree. But in a way, I had to, like. Yeah, I said it like earlier today. I said I had to prove to myself and to you guys that I was actually about what I'm about.

Toly [01:49:08]:
Why? Why did you feel like.

Mike [01:49:10]:
Because I bought into that dream a long time ago already.

Toly [01:49:12]:
No, no.

Eldar [01:49:13]:
Yeah. No, because he was facing. He was facing like, he said, okay, cool. He put it on the board. He. He said it out loud. He said, hey, I want to do this. I want to do this.

Eldar [01:49:20]:
I want to do that. All right, cool. So why are you do. Why are you behaving this way? Why are you behaving that way? Why are you behaving this way? And he's like, wait a second. This is true. Either I'm just bullshitting myself and the guys that I want to be this, or I'm really a piece of shit and, like, I'm not even ready. I'm not ready for that kind of life, you know what I'm saying? Like, he had to, like, face himself as to say, who am I? Yeah, like, who am I to want to be all this good stuff, you know what I mean, when I'm actually doing all these wrong things and acting shady. He had to face himself.

Eldar [01:49:49]:
That's what, that's what happened.

Mike [01:49:50]:
Yeah, I said, look at. I said, look in the mirror.

Eldar [01:49:52]:
You know what I'm saying?

Mike [01:49:53]:
That I want was.

Eldar [01:49:54]:
Yeah, yeah. I think that was the point.

Toly [01:49:56]:
That's what happened after getting denied.

Mike [01:49:58]:
It was so many things. It was a lot of different parts of it. But yeah, the denied was huge. You know, the board thing was huge. A lot of stuff that.

Toly [01:50:08]:
What. What's a funny, I think paradoxical thing from this that I'm thinking about is that, like, there was a moment where there was. Where you got physically denied. Right. But there wasn't A concrete moment where it's like checkbox, where it's like, okay, come in.

Eldar [01:50:22]:
Well, yeah, was. It was a lot of.

Mike [01:50:23]:
No, but. But I was.

Toly [01:50:24]:
That's what I'm saying that that's where I viewed us like the. The Herculean thing where it's like, no one said, okay, Hercules, do X, Y and Z and you'll become a God. Right, But. But he had to almost like, yeah.

Eldar [01:50:36]:
But this wasn't a random thing. Totally.

Toly [01:50:38]:
No, I know it wasn't a random.

Eldar [01:50:40]:
Yeah, you were describing more of a random thing, you know what I'm saying? Where you just, like, presented a moment. He's like, okay, I like this way. And then he got the pass. Like, you know, I'm saying, like, this was. We were shooting in the right direction. If he's saying what he's saying now, he's the test. He's given us a testimony saying like, hey, guys. Like, yeah, you were right, actually, with that assessment.

Eldar [01:50:56]:
And then I had to go through this step. Through this step, through this step. I got through those steps, saw myself calm the fuck down, and realized that the gigs up.

Toly [01:51:03]:
No 1, 1, 1, 100%.

Eldar [01:51:05]:
So there is. There is an equation.

Toly [01:51:07]:
No, no, no, I know that there's an equation, but I'm saying is that like. I think almost like the paradoxical, like, part about this is that there was never, like a moment of welcome that, like, yes, you are deserving. Mike, now come in. But that happened along the way.

Eldar [01:51:23]:
Oh, okay. Yeah, No, I think that the individual.

Toly [01:51:25]:
But there was a clearly deny moment is what I'm saying.

Eldar [01:51:29]:
Oh, well, the deny moment only came because he asked.

Toly [01:51:34]:
Yes, but the accepting moment came how? What, like the acceptance in it was a completely different scenario than the denial.

Eldar [01:51:44]:
No, it's the same way. It's a culmination of moments. The denial. Just because you verbally one time said to him no doesn't mean that you said no to him. Many. You said no to him many, many times. At the times when you had conversations, he did not get it. He did not get it.

Eldar [01:52:00]:
Once, twice, three times, four times. You were not on the same page. You would move away. That's you saying no. You don't get it, bro. Okay? It's the same, you know, it's a combination of all those things. And then now, culmination of all the right actions, right steps, right thinking, right speech, right thought, right action is leading to yet another. Like, like you said, now it says acceptance then.

Eldar [01:52:20]:
So, like, okay, now he gets it. Like, it's pretty clear okay. We don't need like an actual coronation here. Like, you know, where Mike sits down and you have to do the thing on him, you know, the sword. The sword. It's, it's, it's pretty clear. Yeah, you know, it's a pretty clear moment, you know.

Toly [01:52:36]:
Yeah, no, that, that, that, it's an interesting thing, but I feel like. Yeah, like I, I do think that there is some kind of. I, I, I don't know, like magic or like. No, magic is probably, it is probably the wrong word for it, but there is some kind of like perseverance that happens of like getting it wrong, getting denied, but continuing to, to push forward.

Eldar [01:53:00]:
I mean. Yeah, that's like. I understand that in Mike's case. Mike, Mike had a particular case. This was his journey for a lot. He needed to learn for a long time. Yeah. Somebody else, Catherine or somebody else, you know, you, me, Dennis, you know, whoever we know, have, might have a different type of journey that they have to go through.

Eldar [01:53:18]:
Different, more different things. If Mike needed to be humbled, that's one thing. Somebody else might be more open. Needs to be more open or whatever it is, you know.

Toly [01:53:24]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:53:27]:
In the way they, they go about things. But yeah, it's pretty similar, I would say. But the examples that you had to go through with who and how, it's yours. It's your personal stuff, you know. So. Yeah, I think we, I think we do. Good. What do you guys think? What are your final thoughts on this question?

Mike [01:53:56]:
Yeah, is this a chicken or the egg thing? I'm wondering, and which way is supposed to be. Yeah, supposed to be the chicken or the egg? Or the egg or the chicken?

Toly [01:54:06]:
I don't agree with what Elder was saying and I, I wasn't convinced that way coming into it. But yeah, I mean, my, my, my, my idea is that there's, there's some way that we can hack this. But as always, I guess, but yeah, I think that it is difficult for what you were saying is like, like tell me what, what impression are you, are you under that is wrong right now. Yeah, yeah, right. Like in that moment, like when someone says that to you, it's like I thought that like. Yeah, I was under the impression you identify. I would be able to identify some things, but then I would be like, that would just be retarded. Like, that would not make sense.

Toly [01:54:45]:
So now I'm more in agreeance. Is that like you gotta identify the situations where, like, they're, they're not coming out in the way that you want them to come out and then examine those things and then work backwards to figure out what's going on.

Eldar [01:55:03]:
Yeah.

Toly [01:55:03]:
And then make conclusions. Make.

Eldar [01:55:06]:
This is what you're doing, actually. Remember, like, you. You, like, you go through life right now and you're like, hey, guys, I went through this. This is what I experienced. This is what happened. Help me out here. You know what I mean? You're picking up the emotions. You're like, wait a second, I don't like the way I feel.

Eldar [01:55:20]:
You know, you raise your hand, like, I don't like the way I feel what happened here? And then if you need help, you ask us, we discuss it.

Toly [01:55:26]:
Right.

Mike [01:55:26]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:55:27]:
If you can't figure out on your own. And that's pretty much it. You know what I mean? Like, the best thing case scenario is to know that, like, we actually are riddled with a lot of the wrong perceptions. A lot of times that we're assuming a lot of things that are.

Toly [01:55:38]:
That's a huge. For that. That might be the biggest first step.

Mike [01:55:41]:
Also, I think that we as people, like, you know, in our age especially, we're pretty established in our life in a. In a sense that, like, we have, you know, experience being ourselves for many years.

Eldar [01:55:56]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:55:57]:
We do mostly the same stuff on a daily basis.

Eldar [01:55:59]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:56:00]:
Right. So I think, you know, our mind, our brain, the way it works, it does as it learns patterns, it like, kind of puts things away.

Eldar [01:56:09]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:56:10]:
So I think it's not like every day we wake up and like all of a sudden today we're in Alaska looking on a boat, and tomorrow we're in North Korea, like.

Eldar [01:56:19]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:56:19]:
You know, building, I don't know, sandcastles. Right. Every day it's mostly the same. So because of that, we have to always work. I think a lot of the work has to be done in the back. From the back that when we weren't conscious.

Toly [01:56:35]:
Okay.

Mike [01:56:35]:
You know, we were unconscious, where we kind of just said, oh, okay, this way supposed to be okay, no problem. And now we have to say, wait, I don't make any sense.

Eldar [01:56:43]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Mike [01:56:45]:
So I think we are going to be working in reverse, you know, for. For, I'm not sure how long.

Toly [01:56:51]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:56:52]:
Until we liberate ourselves.

Toly [01:56:53]:
Yeah. I think it only makes sense. I like that. Yeah. There's no way around it other than what. What you guys were saying. If you tangled your shit, the only way is to untangle.

Mike [01:57:03]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:57:03]:
Go. Yeah.

Toly [01:57:04]:
Until your shit is back to being loose.

Eldar [01:57:06]:
Loose.

Mike [01:57:06]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:57:07]:
Yeah.

Mike [01:57:07]:
Right.

Eldar [01:57:07]:
You're good.

Toly [01:57:08]:
You can't, like, go forward when you have a. Like you have to first go back before you could go forward.

Eldar [01:57:13]:
That's right. That's right. Yeah. But if you're harboring right now certain emotions, right, right now, in this present moment, about someone, something, whatever it is, if you can do that, be open to it, say it, reproduce it, say that. I haven't figured it out yet. Let's talk about it. Right?

Mike [01:57:29]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:57:30]:
Usually it's hard, you know what I'm saying? But as you talk, I think get to them, you know, and then you can finally, you know, change your perception on that, on that thing. And then there's hopefully solidified it in your subconscious plane. And then you can, you know, have a proper emotional response then, you know, versus being hostage, constantly being held hostage, you know.

Mike [01:57:52]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:57:53]:
But a lot of times I also think that you're probably. You're just gonna liberate yourself from emotions in the first place. What you're gonna have is more so like. Like, it is what it is kind of moments, right, like where you used to be surprised or whatever, you no longer surprised. Like. Yeah, that's a possibility. Sure. It's 5% possibility, but nonetheless, it's a possibility.

Mike [01:58:11]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:58:11]:
So you're no longer like, yo, guess what happened to me? You won't believe this. No, like what? Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, you're just gonna have like, okay, it happened. It is what it is. You keep moving forward.

Toly [01:58:23]:
Mm.

Eldar [01:58:24]:
Yeah. So I think that's one of the ways, like we always ask about, hey, how do you kind of like, you know, assess the situation in people in order to then not to, you know, fall into those emotional pits with those people? Right, yeah. By developing those relationship. I think that if you, you know, careful, carefully, you know, kind of assess. Assess it, observe it.

Mike [01:58:47]:
Yeah.

Eldar [01:58:48]:
You know what I mean? And prepare and know, like, hey, there's a possibility for this, There's a possibility for that. That when it does come to you and it hits you, which you will, you're gonna be like, oh, hi, how's it going? I've expected you.

Mike [01:58:58]:
Yeah, yeah.

Toly [01:58:59]:
I think in those scenarios, the downfalls is the. Is the premature conclusion making.

Eldar [01:59:04]:
Yeah, yeah.

Mike [01:59:05]:
Judging, like, judging. Saying that, like, situation.

Toly [01:59:07]:
This is a person, this is a person that like acts this kind of way and that you can act this way and that's the only thing that that's going to happen. So, like, you're not actually saying that out loud, but that's like, by the actions that that is what you're saying is that like, like things are going to be great. This person's gonna understand me at all times. We're gonna bounce off each other like two happy bunnies. Right. And this is what's gonna happen. You're making that conclusion that like. Yep, this is what's gonna happen.

Eldar [01:59:33]:
Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

Toly [01:59:34]:
And then like, when, when that doesn't happen. Yeah. So like, the, the fault here is that, like, I think, for example, like you as an example, you wait a very long time before you make a conclusion. If you even ever make a conclusion.

Eldar [01:59:47]:
Well, no, I told you the example of Nate's example was my conclusion. I did not expect for those turn of events. I didn't. I expected for us to vibe, for us to build business together and thrive. That's what I expected because there was plenty of time put in. You understand?

Toly [02:00:02]:
Yeah.

Eldar [02:00:02]:
So I thought we were on the same page. So when we weren't and when he hit us with the left field like that. Yeah, I was, I was not. I was not.

Mike [02:00:10]:
You didn't.

Eldar [02:00:10]:
I did not expect.

Mike [02:00:12]:
You didn't account for Dr. K. For Mr. Nate.

Eldar [02:00:16]:
Yeah.

Mike [02:00:16]:
I. What, what's that?

Toly [02:00:17]:
I feel like this podcast might be called. If I had to take a wild guess. Mike goes off.

Eldar [02:00:29]:
Wow, you're good. You were able to get a sound out of there. Yeah, man. No, so.

Toly [02:00:35]:
Yeah, that was a light joke.

Eldar [02:00:36]:
See, I have, I have an example. Yeah. So I have that example.

Toly [02:00:40]:
Yeah. I wish now foreseen was a unfamiliar feeling.

Eldar [02:00:45]:
Yeah. I mean, hopefully you develop a better sense to it.

Toly [02:00:47]:
Yeah.

Eldar [02:00:48]:
Where you can see certain things.

Toly [02:00:50]:
Yeah.

Eldar [02:00:51]:
So you don't get caught up. I mean, nobody likes to get caught off guard, I think.

Mike [02:00:54]:
Yeah. You gotta be. It sounds like you have to be super sensitive and like into seeing how you actually feel.

Eldar [02:01:01]:
Yeah. 100%.

Mike [02:01:02]:
Are you actually enjoying what's actually happening?

Eldar [02:01:04]:
Yeah.

Mike [02:01:05]:
With those people or you know, with.

Eldar [02:01:07]:
Those people, I guess. Or with those. Yeah. Generally was fine.

Mike [02:01:11]:
You know what I mean?

Eldar [02:01:11]:
Everything's fine.

Mike [02:01:12]:
Yeah.

Eldar [02:01:13]:
You know, up until it wasn't.

Mike [02:01:15]:
Yeah.

Toly [02:01:16]:
What. What did Damie say? It is until it isn't.

Eldar [02:01:20]:
It is. So it isn't. Yeah, that's what it was. So that was interesting. All right. That's it. Those are my final thoughts. So you finished?

Toly [02:01:30]:
Yeah, yeah. No, I, I, I, I'm, I'm leaving with, with that. I agree with you that like you have to have. Yeah. You have to like, muster up the courage to bring up the memories and the things that, that, that, that you can.

Eldar [02:01:45]:
Yeah.

Toly [02:01:45]:
And try to try, try to hire a combination of yourself and the right people around you to, to work on that job and then to. To figure out what. What's going on there, and then, like, whatever is. Comes out of that conversation to have the perseverance to put that into effect and get to a point where you can get a win. And then once you get that win, I think that you have no choice but to get addicted to that when. And then I think that. That. That that's how change happens.

Eldar [02:02:19]:
Yeah, that's good. As well put. Well broken down. All right, guys, thank you so much. Yeah, great. That's good.