Deep Dive With Ali Abdaal Transcripts
S2 E2: Oliver Burkeman
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Ali Abdaal 00:00
Hey friends welcome back to Deep Dive. In this episode, I am doing a conversation with Oliver Burkeman. Oliver is the author of the incredibly real and genuinely really good book for 1000s of weeks time and how to use it. The book is, in fact, so good that Darren Brown said, I love this book. And Mark Manson, the famous author of the subtle art of not giving a fuck said, wonderfully honest, a much needed reality check on our culture's crazy assumptions around work productivity and living a meaningful life. This is a really good book. It's kind of like a productivity book. But it's not really a productivity book. It's more like a philosophical existential look at like the finitude of existence and how we're all going to die. And how like, the whole productivity guru culture stuff, is maybe not the appropriate way to live a meaningful life. So, yeah, really wide ranging conversation. Oliver used to be a journalist, I think still is a journalist at The Guardian, where for 10 years, he wrote their column, which was called this column will change your life. And he talks about how it started off as a bit of satire, like poking fun at all these productivity gurus so then what he found as he was doing this is that some of the productivity guru life advice was actually kind of useful and then it kind of became more of a sincere thing. But now he's written this book and it's actually sick. The thing I love about all of our is that he's it's a very like British approach to the idea of productivity and living a meaningful life. And you know, my our American listeners will hopefully forgive me for making the the distinction between like, a very American approach to like hustle and productivity. This is a bit more of a kind of Loki chilled out British vibe, where it's like, Hey, we're all gonna die. Let's not take things too seriously. That kind of stuff. So definitely check the book out links are going to be in the video description and in the shownotes depending on whether you're watching this on YouTube or listening to this on a podcast platform of your choice, and I hope you enjoy this conversation between me and Oliver Berkman. Oliver, welcome. Welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the programme. Welcome to the show. I haven't quite figured out what the terminology is I radio for it's Welcome to the programme American podcasters Welcome to the show. What do you what do you think? Sounds more legit? Yeah. I think show is more common now. programme. You've got to be spelling it. With me? Of course. Yeah. We're not going to want to bastardise the spelling. Thank you for coming on. We are both considered productivity gurus on the internet. How do you feel about that?
Oliver Burkeman 02:06
Uneasy? I suppose I must be, I know you are.
Ali Abdaal 02:17
I'm very uneasy about it. Yeah.
Oliver Burkeman 02:18
No, I mean, you are considered one. I don't, I suppose. Yeah. It's a strange thing, isn't it? Because you're sort of, apart from anything else, you're kind of, if you spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff, and practising it and putting into practice, you run up against its limitations and its edges and you sort of see past it. So always feels like anything that you sort of put out into the world is always like one step behind what you're doing. Where you're thinking is that.
Ali Abdaal 02:44
Yeah, I know what you mean, I've got thoughts on this, but how did you become a productivity guru?
Oliver Burkeman 02:50
Basically, accidentally? No, I mean, I guess the main thing that I've done in this area is, is writing this for a long time was writing this column for The Guardian, which started off like literally so I did it for more than a decade. And it started off as basically just mocking self help really, like I mean, my my main motive at the beginning, we called it this con will change your life. And that was meant to be a joke. And I spent the next like decade of my life explaining to people it was meant to be sardonic. And, and it started off mainly about like, looking at the sort of mainly the nonsense that was that was in the sector with a few little gems here and there, I'm afraid it was a kind of a journey was one of becoming more sincere, really, because I suddenly sort of it became more interesting to me, especially with the sort of imagined, and I think real Guardian audience of similarly sceptical people became more interesting to say, not look at these charlatan gurus who have been ridiculous, but like, look at this thing that you might think is a bit embarrassing this topic or this book, or this person, there's actually something really valuable hiding in that that's just actually a much more interesting and frankly, journalistically sustainable thing to do in a column is sort of point to valuable things just tear down.
Ali Abdaal 04:08
How did you get the gig? How does one become the productivity columnist at The Guardian?
Oliver Burkeman 04:12
I was a totally by accident. I was I was working as a feature writer there and I carried on working speech writer that and my editor on weekend magazine at the time, saw that I was consuming lots of these books with this kind of definitely, with this kind of dual motive of like, well, this is silly, but I'm actually kind of really interested. And, and she thought, might as well get some some journalistic value out of the fact that Oliver has this Yeah. fixation. So that's how that started. And it wasn't intended to last particularly long but it but it ended up doing and it lasted for 10 years, more than 10 years. It's no I stopped it. bit over a year ago. What it is now just it just totally seemed like it was finally the right time to do so it was in the run up To the book coming out that weird thing where you want to do new things, but you feel like you're actually not going to be able to motivate yourself to do them until you've cut the cord of the last thing. Yeah. Which I didn't want to do. I'd far rather get like, get all my ducks in a row and make it make a natural stress free transition, but enough that you can do that. So that was why as well.
Ali Abdaal 05:20
Okay, yeah, that's cool. I mean, so the book that you've written is very, very good. I listened to it on audiobook, but we have a physical version, which I would love for you to sign towards 4000 weeks time and how to use it. You've got a whole thing from Darren Brown. Damn, right. It's one of my one of my dream dream podcast guests. Have you read his book Happy?
Oliver Burkeman 05:39
Yes but haven't yet read his new one, though. Notes on about a stubborn universe. I can't remember the details. But it looks very up my street.
Ali Abdaal 05:50
Yes I've pre ordered it. It's gonna arrive on Kindle at some point. 4000 weeks, what's the premise? What's the deal with that?
Oliver Burkeman 05:59
The title, that is very approximately the average lifespan in the West expressed in weeks, if you lived to be 80, you'll have 4100. And something I'm not good at math, I definitely sort of rounded it to an imposing number. And, you know, I, I'm sort of at pains to point out talking about the title. Obviously, many people get quite a few more than 4000 weeks. And obviously, many people get far fewer. Yeah, the point is just, it's really finite. And something about expressing it in weeks makes it really fine. If even if you like, if you break the current world record for longevity, and live to be like what 125 or whatever you need to do. Still in these like, six 7000, or something, it's like something around that point is just you put it in weeks, it's just like weirdly tiny.
Ali Abdaal 06:53
The subtitle is time and how to use it. And I guess when, when I was like describing this, but because I've I recommended it in my newsletter a few weeks ago, after I listened to the audiobook, I was like, it's sort of like a productivity book. But it's sort of not really a productivity book. And it's sort of like a philosophical exploration of the finitude of existence, I find myself using this weird, like terminology. How would you describe what the what the books about?
Oliver Burkeman 07:17
That seems good enough to me. I mean, it's really strange as a writer, something like this, like, I don't think, first of all, like now I'm going to pick a genre, and then write into it. I definitely think, Well, firstly, what needs to be said, but more in a way, like, what's the what I need to hear like it because it's totally like written for me to figure out what I need to do with regard to time as much as it is to sort of lecture other people about that. And I think that the point you're making there about, maybe being an uneasy fits in different genres, reflects the fact that I had got to a point where what I wanted as much as anything else was to understand the, the right kind of perspective to take, not as opposed to tips and techniques, not that they're not valuable, but that they have to sort of be fitted into a broader, like, sense of what it is to have a relationship with time. And then, as opposed to thinking that the one next technique was gonna, like, be my salvation, which I spent many, many years thinking.
Ali Abdaal 08:21
So in your 10 years, as a, as a columnist for The Guardian, doing the stuff, we I got the impression you were like testing different productivity techniques, and then you'd write about the effect that they had on your life.
Oliver Burkeman 08:30
Yeah, that was one of the things it was also like writing about new research and new books and stuff. But yeah, that was a big part of it.
Ali Abdaal 08:36
iAnd so I guess, how did how did that culminate in this sort of more, kind of take a step back more like, again, like, like relationship to timey approach to a book, rather than, for example, writing a book with like 18,000 tips and tricks.
Oliver Burkeman 08:50
The column was a really useful, like experimental ground for like trying things out. And then if you look in like in the rearview mirror, after you've written the column for a few years, I could see patterns, emerging things that things that kept making sense to me and all that kept, really not working. And so both for this book, and the last one, I wrote, like, we're sort of a rose from that process, you get to sort of test stuff out, you get feedback from people, someone says, I read your column. Have you seen this book? That's about it. And he sort of acts as a, I mean, this kind of interaction is much more normal now than it was in when I began this column, which is still relatively speaking the early days of the internet for for newspapers, relatively. But yeah, so that was that was that way of that was how it sort of it sort of started and yeah, I guess in terms of the substance of the I, the idea that that kept emerging from all of that is, there is something to do with acknowledging limitations embracing the sort of certain facts, uncomfortable facts about the human situation with respect to time that that are, that is very important if you're going to actually sort of plunge into life and do meaningfully productive things. And then there's quite a lot of sort of unhelpful ways of thinking about time and productivity, including in certain books and coming from certain gurus, that basically just sets you up as being in a war with the Nate, the human situation in a way that is basically never going to help. Because if your goal is to try to escape your finitude, then good luck with that.
Ali Abdaal 10:31
So what do kind of the if, if we sit stereotype as I don't know, the the stereotypical productivity book written by productivity guru? What does that get wrong? Or sort of misguided or different about probably like, how do you how do you think about productivity different to that?
Oliver Burkeman 10:49
Well, I think that, yeah, that's the right question. I think, well, the most the most stereotypical book is going to imply that you can get everything done that is important to you, whether its ambitions and goals, or sort of obligations and demands all of it provided that you render yourself sufficiently optimised and efficient. So that you can sort of pack in more and more and more into the same amount of time using techniques, you know, using specific organisational and, and work techniques, that you won't need to make tough choices with what you do about your time. And that if that and that you can sort of achieve a kind of control over your day, that is basically absolute and over your life and how things, how things unfold in your life that is basically absolute, you get a sort of subsection of this stereotypical bad time management stuff that says, No, you do have to make choices, and you have to prioritise, but it still implies that like, prioritisation and saying no. And all the rest of it is just a matter of getting rid of all the tedious things. Yeah. So that all the things that matter you have time for and I kind of want to say no, you don't even have time for all the things that matter actually.
Ali Abdaal 12:01
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Oliver Burkeman 12:58
Oh, yeah, yeah, talking of stereotypical bad time management. I mean, okay. I feel like the caveat, one or two people have explained to me since the book came out ways in which it's possible to interpret this parallel, terrible that are, that are not so ridiculous. But in case anyone doesn't know about it. So in various different versions, but it's like the teacher or somebody like brings in a jar of, should I go through this whole thing? Or is this so well known that this is a waste of valuable?
Ali Abdaal 13:26
I think it's worth going through. It's well known to people to be like you.
Oliver Burkeman 13:31
Okay, just very quickly, a teacher brings a glass jar into a classroom with some large rocks, some pebbles and some sand, and challenges the students to fit all of this into the glass jar. And then students because they're apparently like, really dumb. Start putting the sand in first and the pebbles in first and they find the big rocks won't fit. Teacher says, no, no, no, let me show you how to do it. And he says, you put the big rocks in first, then you can fit the pebbles and then pour the sand in, and it all fits. And the idea is, if the big rocks are your major priorities in life, you've got to make time for those and you can make time for those. And if you do make time for those, then everything else you can fit in around the edges. But if you don't put those first, you'll never get around to them at all. And I don't think that's a completely meritless point. I just want to say right now, so that, you know, the state of Stephen Covey doesn't know libel laws, but the experiment is plainly rigged, right? It's set up the professor, the teacher has only brought as many big rocks in as he knows can ultimately with the right configuration be made to fit. And I think that extending this metaphor, that the problem most of us have with time management these days, the main one, it's not necessarily that we're bad at prioritising, it's just that there are too many big rocks in the jar. In other words, there are too many things that totally legitimately have a claim on your time. Too many people in your life business opportunities His demands from the boss, whatever you're setting it, whatever your situation is, like, there are just too many things that legitimately, you could use your time on. Van, you have the time and stamina. Yeah, available for. So the nature of the hard choice involved is different. It's not just like, how am I going to organise my day? It's like, what am I going to neglect? Because I'm, what important things am I going to neglect? Because I am definitely going to be neglecting some important things.
Ali Abdaal 15:24
Yeah, like so as I was listening to the book, it really gave me a lot of reassurance. Because, again, as a productivity Guru, I feel like I should have my life in order. And you know, when the WhatsApp messages pile up to like, you know, 100 Plus, unlike Oh, my God, relationships are the most important thing in life, I'm letting people down by not replying to them. And then I spend hours replying to all the people, and then responding to WhatsApp messages, generates more WhatsApp messages, similarly to responding to email, it just generates more emails. And, you know, at the same time, I care about the work stuff I care about, like, I don't know, some sort of impact, I care about spending time with my family. And it's like, in the past, part of me was just like, you know, what, I just really suck at keeping in touch with friends. And that's okay. And then another part of me was like, No, that shouldn't be okay. Like, you know, I should use my productivity powers to like, actually focus on the thing that's important, like keeping in touch with friends, how do you, I guess, knowing that, for example, there are too many rocks to fit in the jar. How does one go about? So could solving this problem?
Oliver Burkeman 16:22
Well, I think so the sort of, I think the most important point there is that like, in a certain sense, you can't and that's the really important point. And this is not a despairing message, I think it's a really empowering and sort of thrilling message in a way. But like if the if the challenge and like, I say it, like vibe with what you're saying there about feeling that there must be a solution. And that all these things really matter, they do really matter. You don't need to persuade yourself that actually, some of them don't matter. Just to get really sort of existential about it, I think there is some kind of urge motivating that. And it's almost universal, to want to find a cheat code for life or find a sort of, you know, a caveat in the contracts of being being human. And to get on top of everything, or in command of your time, in a way, in a certain way that is just not actually available to us as finite creatures, because we have this fundamental mismatch between our capacity to think of infinite possibilities and feel infinite obligations, and our ability, our finite material, you know, short lives and limited time. So this is like the vague part. And we can totally talk about, like more specific and practical things, but but I think there's something really powerful in just seeing, Oh, this isn't the problem to be solved. This is just the way things are, at the end of life, there will be lots and lots of things, you didn't get around to doing that, that totally were legit, they would have been good things to do. But that was because you're doing other thing, hopefully, things that were that were good things to do. And you can sort of relax into the discomfort of that a little bit. You can sort of, you can feel the anxiety or anyway, that leads to anxiety in me, that comes from thinking like, well, you mean, I'm never going to get to this point in my life where I have no problems, or feel no, no, it's like, no, you're not that. And that will be ridiculous. And you wouldn't want to get there actually. But it's a separate discussion. You can sort of factor in like price into your to your approach to life, that there are going to be good relationships that you don't nurture interesting opportunities that you don't pursue great books that you don't get to read. Like once that if something like that is completely a given, it stops being stressful, we don't beat ourselves up for not being able to like jump a mile in the air because nobody expects that in the first place yet of human beings. And there's a set, I should be the same for this kind of stuff. And once you sort of let this whole fantastical edifice crash to the ground, and you're just standing in the rubble, you can be like, Okay, now, I've got this many hours today, what will be the most meaningful, exciting, high impact things to do? And it's like, it's, it's hard. And I don't want to imply that I've like totally solved this, this this issue either. But like, I think that is the way forward.
Ali Abdaal 19:03
How did you come to this, like realisation that in fact, it is not possible to juggle all the things competently?
Oliver Burkeman 19:08
I think the column helps there in like a weird, bad way. Because if you test things out for week after week, for many years, and you begin to see what it is you're wanting from them, which is basically salvation or eternal life or something equivalent to that. And then it never happens. And on the 100th time round, you're like, oh, maybe there's a problem with the framing of this, instead of that I haven't just yet found the technique. So that's where being a bit obsessive kind of helps, because if you were someone who just tried a couple of time management techniques, you might well imagine that the the sort of utopian one, you just haven't seen it come across it was I was pretty confident. Yeah, by the end of that decade plus that like it wasn't covering anytime soon.
Ali Abdaal 19:49
Yeah. Yeah, I guess it's an unusual position to be in where you have actually tried all of the techniques. I feel like I've come close to trying all the big ones through making videos about this for the last five years. I find that every time I reread getting things done, I feel about two weeks worth of like, yes. Capture, clarify, organise perfect. And you know, it feels like all the cylinders are firing, and it's all good. And then I miss a week a review, and another one and another one. That's like, you know what I've had this, I looked at my to do list, which was the the app I was recently trying out. And it's like overdue reminder, do your weekly review 24th of October. I was like, I did it for two weeks. Yeah. And then the reminder just kept on going over. Like, I know, in my head that doing a weekly review is an important thing, getting all my priorities in order reflecting on the week, etc, etc. There's something about it actually makes it really hard to do.
Oliver Burkeman 20:40
Yeah, and I think you know, I don't want to pretend I still totally like a new app or new technique, I'm still like, there's still a big part of me that is like, try to buy that and I'll try it out. And blah, blah, blah, all that happens, and I'm sure you're in this space, too, is that you, you do begin to just like see through a little bit, the motivations that you were bringing to it. So it's to do with the spirit in which you're adopting new technique, right, by all means, try out a new technique, or go back to getting things done or do anything. But like, it's when you slightly drop this idea that it's going to like save you from the situation. And I've actually had this really interesting, maybe it's not interesting. It's interesting to me experience of trying out certain techniques ages ago, finding that they didn't give me what I wanted, because what I wanted was sort of this kind of total mastery of time. Yeah, salvation. And then years later, the Pomodoro Technique is an interesting example of this, like coming back to it in this new kind of disillusioned but in a positive way. From that new perspective, and seeing like, that's actually a really useful thing to do. It's a great, interesting way to divide up the day. It's like totally useful in for what it is absolutely great. But I was bringing something weird, psychologically to it before and I think a lot of people do. That's my gamble anyway, that this isn't just my personal hang ups and weirdnesses.
Ali Abdaal 21:58
Have you have you come across the midwit meme?
Oliver Burkeman 22:01
No.
Ali Abdaal 22:02
So I would describe it to you on on the YouTube video of this podcast, we can put up the midwit. And it's, it's basically like an IQ bell curve, with like, 100 100 IQ in the middle. And it's like, on the low IQ end of the spectrum. There's like this dude being like, for example, something like I just do what I feel like doing on the other end of the spectrum, IQ 150 There's a Jedi Master who says I just do what I feel like doing. And in the middle. Yeah, there's the person being like, I managed my time using getting things done. I have a to do list, I do my weekly review available. Yeah, all this kind of stuff. And I think this so much applies in the world. And it actually almost almost anything where it's like, in a way, by going through the process of becoming a productivity guru, you come out on the other end with a just a more of an appreciation of like, actually, keeping things simple is potentially the way forward.
Oliver Burkeman 22:52
It's the simplicity on the far side of complexity, right? You have to, to some degree, you have to go through that middle bit. And maybe one way of thinking of this book, is my attempt to take readers who haven't gone through that through Yeah, the sort of, sort of thing? No, it's interesting. And one, one facet of that just one particular way that plays out, I think is in this idea of like, what if you very helpful for me in terms of productivity, but I think it applies in other areas? What if you just sort of what if you gave up the idea that you that there wasn't going to be any single ultimate solution here, like what if you just sort of accepted that your techniques and approaches were probably going to like change and evolve all the way through your life, like you were never going to kind of get the set of techniques and approaches and apps that I mean, and that's kind of obvious in a way that that's what that's gonna be. But there is that bit in the back of your mind, that's like, for some reason, this particular new, do everything Notes app is somehow, like, in a 40 years time is still going to be the market leader.
Ali Abdaal 23:52
I've had that similar sort of journey in a bunch of other sort of productivity, adjacent things like in the process of writing the book, I have read loads of books about note taking, and about the process of writing. And so like Ryan Holiday has a method that, you know, with the physical note cards, and this is a custom method, yes, you know, all of all of these various methods for for note taking, and I've kind of landed on Apple notes, just writing things down as like, I read them. And that resonate with me, and that's kind of what I was doing 10 years ago. Right and evident. But then through this whole process, it's like, but, but I still feel that there is something out there and that if I, if I did have the perfect zettelkasten method where all my notes would link up and all the insights and then generating a book would be as simple as copying and pasting stuff that I've already written over 10 years. Right, given that you've been writing for 10 plus years and written two books. Does that like resonate at all?
Oliver Burkeman 24:45
Yeah, no, it really does. And I mean, one of the things that I found so there's a quest for perfect order, in that in that kind of approach to notes note taking information, which is clearly I think, one part of this overall quest for like, total control over the human situation, you know, it's like, it all comes down to like, you know, not wanting to die. Ultimately, I was sort of seeing this until I and then I, after that after I'd begun to stumble on it in my own mind, I saw it expressed very well by David Parral, that these systems kind of us kind of need to keep the messy in a way. And to the extent that my system of note taking and storage of notes is is disorganised a little bit, and it is to some guys, like that seems to keep it juicy. Like I get more interesting insights. And it feels like there's more potential there for new chapters, or email newsletters or whatever it is, when you actually get close to achieving the level of total control, you think you crave and perfect order, the life kind of goes out of it a bit. For me anyway, well, like, if I've got a kind of perfectly organised database of notes like tagged or folded away in in an absolute, if I get to that point where it feels completely, like it's done, I don't know how to express it, they just did like the life goes out of it. Yeah, the juice of the ideas is not so clear. If I've got a kind of directory in some app that has a meeting Ulysses meaning, but which has like, which is kind of, it's not quite properly ordered, there's those kind of notes jostling with other notes that probably should be separated out somehow, like, that's when I see the connections between stuff. So like, I've never quite managed to get on board with the real canonical zettelkasten stuff where you like, link everything in a very, in a very clear way, because the links for me seem to come just from the fact that there are two notes next to each other that I that are not particularly meant to be there. So serendipity, I guess.
Ali Abdaal 26:38
Yeah, like in my, in my quest for the kind of the perfect system to write the book, I was reading a lot of Austin Kleon stuff around sort of creativity and having like an analogue workstation and a digital workstation where the analogue workstation like a three pads and like notes and bits written on paper, and that felt really seemed like a very, like romantic way of writing a book that, oh, I've got this stuff. And then when I go to my other workstation, then I type things up, and haven't yet tried this. But every time I do get any three pad out, I find that just like Scrolling Stuff on a piece of a free paper is actually just way better than for example, using a very rigid sort of bullet point, structure and like notion or Rome or any other note taking up.
Oliver Burkeman 27:15
Yeah, and I think almost the more abstract issue here is not it's not the method, but the fact that any method, however good and I like I love Austin Kleon stuff, for example, but like the any method, if you take it from that person, and it's like, now I must perfectly reproduce it in my own life, it's gonna, you're gonna give it a rigidity that it almost certainly doesn't have in the, in the, in the world of the person, like, who originated it. And so I'm constantly changing the Yeah, suppose it process that I have for doing these things, and I kind of feel like, I'm always gonna be that way. And there might be something good about the fact.
Ali Abdaal 27:51
Yes, I really like that, like, I get so many questions like, you know, being a, you know, as you know, being a productivity guru. One is somewhat financially and otherwise motivated to, to continue to try out different apps and to find the best one. And part of that is this thing of, maybe there is that perfect app around the corner. But like another part of it as well kind of content for my newsletter. You know, notion of just recently feature let's like, see if it fits into my life. And people will often discover a video I made two years ago where I talked about how at the time, I was using notion to store a list of database for all the things that I've ever read me like, oh, you know, I was reading your I was I was watching a video about the residents calendar. You know, how do you specifically deal with this content type. And I'm, like, moved on from that. Three days after I made that video, but it feels a little bit fake to be that person. And so when I was reading this stuff, I was like, I really got a lot of reassurance from it.
Oliver Burkeman 28:45
I'm glad there's it's reminded me of a thing. I mean, this is making it a bit more sort of, like this is more to do with personal life and relationships, perhaps but there's a great quote in the book, a psychotherapist called Bruce tiff to elsewhere not in the quotes in the book has this kind of idea that like what if you took the thing you struggled with the most in your psychological life and just kind of imagined never being rid of it to the end of your days like so if you're like, if you've got social anxiety or your commitment phobic when it comes to relationships or your you're always struggling to try to bring order to, to your productivity in your work, like, what if you just thought about the the prospect of like, never being shot of this, of this particular idiosyncrasy? And the first I feel like, oh, like crestfallen when I do that, because I'm like, You mean, like, I'm never gonna get to the perfect time. But then I'm like, actually, it's really liberating. It's actually really liberating to think like, okay, you don't maybe we're not in the business here of finding a way to like, suddenly become to justify our existence on the planet. Maybe that's taken care of, maybe, maybe you're fine. And then if you come up with some adjustments to your workflow that make you even better, great. Dice the light maybe you're not trying to like maybe there's some light big existential problem here that your that your notes are in disarray.
Ali Abdaal 30:03
In the book you talk about the centre in this conversation so far, you've alluded to that kind of something along the lines of the the desire for productivity and control. It is ultimately a desire for salvation, a fear of death, like, what what do you mean by that?
Oliver Burkeman 30:17
Well, this is where it gets. So sort of hard to put into words, but I think we, I think most of us today, and I talked in the book about how I don't think this would have been true for like mediaeval peasants or some other people, but like, we think of time as something that we're like in a relationship with. And there are, that's not a given through the history of reflections on time, but like, and so it naturally becomes something that we've got to try to sort of use Well, or we could be guilty of wasting, or we want to sort of feel confident that the near future is going to unfold in a certain way. And actually, time isn't really like this. So we don't have it's not if we're treating it is something that ultimately it isn't because you don't really have time, you just get given each moment as it comes. And you don't know how much more of it you'll have. And you can't really put it aside all those things that sort of the language and the metaphor of like, physical possessions or ownership and management. Right? Yeah, doesn't quite work. The blogger David Kane has done some radio aptitude, oh, some really interesting stuff on this, it's like, so you're constantly approaching your time, with a sort of set of concepts that aren't quite properly suited to what it really is. And I think that's because it's kind of uncomfortable. And ultimately, if you go deep enough, probably quite terrifying to sort of face up to the real truth of the situation, which is that each of us all the time is just completely vulnerable to anything that might happen next, like you have no control over the future, you can exert influence and improve probabilities, but like, you're just on this raft on this whitewater river being born forward. And you've just got to sort of do what you can in that situation. And in that context, it's really tempting to feel like, no, can I come up with a way where I'm like, you know, the stretch the metaphor, like where I can, like, get onto the riverbank, and then like, control a fleet of ships or say, No, you're just like, you're just in it. And that's terrifying. And so I think a lot of what passes for sort of bad time management, but also, lots of other sort of weird behaviours that we engage in life are basically forms of emotional avoidance, right, their ways of not facing up to the sort of edgy, nervous, angsty situation that we're actually in. So we, we, we think the way forward is to, is to feel more in control. And we than we really are to distract ourselves. And, as I say, it's a little bit hard to sort of articulate in words. But I think that actually, the better approach in all these contexts is as to the extent that one can to actually acknowledge the way things really are and to sort of, like, go with the fact that you're that you're on the raft on the Whitewater, and then you can start like navigating a bit more, and use what influence you, you have does that make sense?
Ali Abdaal 33:08
The thing that that reminded me of was antique sort of concretize it please. example from my life where I feel like this really applies. It's that the feeling of writer's block, in the sense that I sit on my laptop, and I've got three hours, I need to do some writing. And then there's like, I don't know what's going on. Therefore, the solution is my, my note taking system is just not tuned, it is the perfect note taking system. And once I have that, then writer's block will disappear. And one of the most like reassuring things about speaking to any author, like I've done on the podcast, or listening to interviews and stuff, is that that feeling never goes away. And this is supposed to be hard. And this is the work. And when I kind of internalise that, now when I have that feeling of like, Oh, I'm so bad, like, why would I even read this, etc, etc. I think this is fine. All of the people think this is so it's all good. And just embracing that then really helped me make progress and also be less beating up of myself about the fact that I've only made 1000 worth of progress rather than the 2833 that I had, like decided would lead to a million words a year or whatever.
Oliver Burkeman 34:17
Absolutely. I think that observation that like that, that these things are difficult. And you might get lucky sometimes and go into like beautiful flow state, but but they are basically difficult. It reminds me of the opening line of a great old self help book, the road less travelled by Scott Peck, which is I'm paraphrasing, but he starts off saying life is difficult. And then what he says something like this is one of the great truths because when you when you fully internalise the truth that life is difficult, it no longer matters, that life is difficult. So it's like, it's like, I feel like that's a different way of saying when you stop treating the difficulty of doing difficult things as a problem to be solved. Yeah. Then they're not they're less different. Built in a certain in a certain way, and the way I would put that through, like my stuff in this book is like, what's happening when you're writing is you're being brought up against your limitations and your your edge, right? You're, you're doing something that matters to you. The stakes are high, you don't know that you can do it to your standards, you don't know that it will be well received, but you want it to be, and all these different things are at stake. And so it's, it's unpleasant in a way. And if at that moment, you distract yourself with some like, nonsense. Online or wherever. Like, that's your, your, it's obvious why you would want to do that, you'd want to do that, because it's because the things are not at stake. And it's and and you're not worried about whether you can do it or not.
Ali Abdaal 35:44
Another reason I ask is because relationships are literally the most important thing in life. And I have always thought like, maybe there's ways to think more intentionally more efficiently, productively about relationships. And also, you've had a kid recently, which is cool. And I'm always like, curious about, like, I feel my calendar is overloaded already. And I don't have a kid, like, What the hell do you do when you have a kid?
Oliver Burkeman 36:07
Yeah, I don't really know. That's me. It was only fairly recently now, because he's just turned five.
Ali Abdaal 36:12
Five, wow you were writing the book for that long?
Oliver Burkeman 36:14
I sort of sold the book proposal, then he came along, and then the book was just on hold for like three years and then got up to them too. So yeah, sadly, nothing will mess with your belief that you can control your, your, your time, and I'm not I don't want to be, I don't want to claim I've figured this out perfectly at all. But I suppose the sort of just think about parenting just for a second, like the one way of thinking about that is it does just sort of show you something very clearly that was true all along, which is that you don't have the control over the time that you thought you did, and you don't have the capacity to do everything you were imagining. So, you know, for many years, before becoming apparent, I might think that I was constantly just like one a week or month away of from self discipline and applying myself to sort of getting everything totally nailed. And that becomes again, it becomes a lot harder to continue to believe in that once like 50% of your previously available time. Minimum that depends on the stage of parenting, I guess, but has just been taken away and put to this to this totally non negotiable thing instead. And so it's like, that's quite useful in a way obviously, it's not obviously, it's not useful from the point of view of one's work to have less time available for one's work. But it is kind of it helps one's own, like gross in a way that quite apart from the many, many huge delights of just being farther but like, it helps one's own growth in a way to sort of see the see the truth of the situation a bit more plainly, which is like, you know, there's definitely not enough time for everything sacrifices will have to be made. And to some extent, this effect hasn't been as pronounced for me as it has for some people. So I'm slightly annoyed at that. But to some extent, it also reduces your distractibility in the work time that you do get, because you're just like, Okay, it's just a few hours now before I'm back on, you know, before school pickup or whatever, so, but to get to it, and that does, to some extent that works for me, I am still prone, a little bit more prone to distraction than, than I would like to be. But what are we gonna do about that.
Ali Abdaal 38:30
We are going to take a little quick break from the podcast introduce the sponsor of this podcast, which is curiosity stream. If you haven't heard by now, curiosity streams is the world's leading documentary streaming subscription platform, founded by John Hendricks is the founder of the Discovery Channel. And on Curiosity stream, they've got hundreds of really high quality high budget documentaries, covering all sorts of things from science and technology to history and ancient civilizations to food and medicine and meditation, like all of the stuff in between. Now, the really cool thing about curiosity stream is that they support independent creators. And so there's a service called Nebula, which you might have heard of, it's an independent streaming platform that's run by me and a bunch of other creators and on nebula we can put content like videos and behind the scenes and long form longer form stuff without worrying about things like the YouTube algorithm. And so for example, nebula I have a bunch of exclusive content that you won't find anywhere else, we actually have the original season zero of the deep dive podcast, which started off as like remote zoom live streams during the pandemic, and that is only available in nebula you won't find it anywhere else. So if you enjoy the sorts of conversations we have on deep dive, you might like to see, you know, a whole year before we started this podcast properly once the pandemic stopped, what sort of conversations I was having with people on Zoom. I've also got a series of videos in nebula called workflow, which is where I deep dive into some of my favourite productivity tools and on nebula you also get early ad free access to my videos and videos from a bunch of other creators that you might be familiar with, like Thomas Frank and Tom Scott and legal eagle and Lindsey Ellis. And the really cool thing is that because curiosity stream loves supporting independent creators, we've gotten a bundle deal, which is that if you sign up for an account on Curiosity stream, you actually get free access to nebula bundled with that so if you head over to curiosity stream.com forward slash deep dive then for less than $15 a year. You can get full access to curiosity streams, incredible library of documentaries, and also free access to all of the stuff on nebula bundled with that. So head over to curiosity stream.com forward slash deep dive to get the bundle deal. So thank you curiosity stream for sponsoring this episode, I always have that feeling of, you know what, from next week, or from two weeks from now, when the calendar is broadly empty, or you know, then my life will be sorted. Because all these ad hoc thing, things that appeared this week, they're not going to appear to.
Oliver Burkeman 40:28
Exactly, yeah. And you pair that with a tweet I saw the other day, I remember you from saying, like, all my schemes for self improvement depend on my waking up tomorrow with like, five times as much self discipline than I've ever demonstrated any day of my life to date. So it's both of those. Yeah, absolutely.
Ali Abdaal 40:44
Yeah, we were doing a little goal setting goal setting exercise with the team. Yesterday, we had this whole like business coaching session, quarterly planning and stuff. And I was like, you know, what's what's like my number one priority for the next quarter. And it's to write the first draft of the book. I was like, Okay, that was like, Wait a minute. That's like 12 weeks and a quarter is 12 chapters in a book. Shit, that's one chapter a week. Right? A chapter is like, I don't know, 8000 words? Probably 10,000 of the editors saying we can cut down to like six or 7000. So am I really saying I'm gonna write 2000 words a day, like each day? I'm like, well, three, three hours in the morning? It's quite a long time. How can it be? Like, yeah, I will do the thing. But I think it's, it's very much, you know, as we, as we think about our future selves, we give ourselves superpowers. Yeah, like, Yes, I will wake up on time, I'll be fully disciplined, I will go to the gym like before eight o'clock, and then I'll be sitting there ready with my coffee to write for four hours solid and not get distracted and not need to do like in the middle.
Oliver Burkeman 41:39
Right. And the reason? I mean, this is maybe obvious, but like, there's a lovely quote from Henri Bergson, the philosopher in his book time and freewill where he sort of says, like, the reason that thinking about the future in this way is almost always more appealing than facing the present, is because like, anything's possible in the hypothetical future, you know, the limitations of the material world that you're subject to today, are not there, like in your imagining of next month, because you can sort of think like, Oh, I'll find a way to do this, this, this and this, or, yeah, I'll bring more self discipline and energy to it than then than before. And it's so it's comforting, you get to like you, you get sort of squirrelled away in the future so that you don't need to like face and face the truth of the situation right now.
Ali Abdaal 42:23
Mm hmm. Yeah.
Oliver Burkeman 42:24
It's useful to notice when one is doing that.
Ali Abdaal 42:27
I think that's the, that's the balancing act like that I found as well in my life without a child is where I will try my best to set an intention for the day of like, this is the this is the one thing that I want to do. And I will try my best to broadly stick a time lock in the calendar for when I will want to do that one thing, knowing that like, to be honest, if a friend was like, Hey, you wanna grab lunch, I will prioritise social life over work, generally. And the way I think of it is like, the rest of the rest of the things I want to do today are a my To Do lists, rather than a to do list. And I'm still experimenting, still still trying to figure out like, what is the what's like a realistic maximum number of things like I'm allowed to have on that list. Because I think otherwise, for me, the temptation is to be like, Oh, well, I'll call my grandma. And that'll call my mom. And then I call my aunt and then Okay, so that's the relationship books, take it all, they need to message about eight different friends, and they need to send thank you cards, and Christmas is coming up. So let me send great gifts, blah, and then I need to do all these different things, checking all these videos that are coming out, and the list just swells. Whereas what I've been trying to do recently is just be like, I'm only allowed to do three things on this list. And if after that, I still have more time. And I feel like doing like quick work, then at that point, I can, I can freestyle it. But I just never get through just just even those three things on the list. And one of the things I really liked about you're sort of like, at the end of the book, you have sort of practical advice C section for those of us that are like, okay, great, and philosophy, and we get to the tips. You talk about things sort of sort of having having like a, a, a maximum number of things that you're allowed to do something to that effect.
Oliver Burkeman 44:08
Yeah, there's all sorts of different ways of implementing this. And you'll be familiar with many of them, but decided like limiting your work in progress, this idea of saying that, I'm only going to this idea of saying like, I'm only going to work on a small, fixed number of things, and I'm going to complete one of those things before I allow myself to put another item onto that queue. And obviously, you can do this at the level of like projects, you can say I'm only gonna have like one major goal in my work at a time. And you can also do it to some extent at the level of tasks, right? You can be like, well, these are the, these are the three things I'm going to do until I've done one of them. Nothing else is coming off that task list. And you know, Kanban boards are an obvious way to implement this. And I've got this idea in the book about keeping two to do lists where you sort of feed items from an event omit to do list through a very narrow, limited to do list. And again, it's just all about like saying you're already making choices, your time is already finite. Whenever you're doing something, you're already saying no to all the other things in that moment. So now just like make it conscious, and and, and sort of hold yourself to it and avoid that thing that I certainly are very prone to, I think lots of people are where it feels like you're more in control of things, if you just sort of spread your attention among 50 of them. Yeah. But actually, it isn't, because you're not more in control of it, you're not making better progress on them, because you just bounce from one to the next whenever they get difficult.
Ali Abdaal 45:40
I'm finding this for the book as well, which one of my, my writing coach says is normal for first draft where I will get 80% of the way through, and then it starts to feel like, I need to round off the documents somehow. But I can't be bothered right. Now. Let me just do chapter eight. Right. And I'm hoping that towards the end of it, then they'll be able to think about this, this kind of stuff. Yeah. On the goal on the goal setting front. I also keep on trying to find the perfect system for this, like, in terms of like, like, like personal goals, or one of my theories. My philosophy is that, shall we say, is that set it like I don't like it when I set goals that are outside of my control. For example, when I set the goal of I want a YouTube video that hits a certain view count, right, compared to I want to make a video I'm proud of when I think I want to write a book that hits the Sunday Times bestseller list versus I won't write a book I'm proud of. And that's all fine. But that almost feels like it's oh, well, I'll just do my best and not worry about the outcome, which also which feels a little bit unsatisfying, given a bunch of research around the idea of like effective goal setting and challenging goal setting and the fact that kind of high performance in inverted commas in most fields. You know, it's not like Michael Phelps is just, you know, well, I'll just try my best and see what happens. Right, right. Right. So yeah, any any thoughts around that tension between, I'll try my best versus I have this specific outcome I'm aiming for which may be somewhat outside of my control.
Oliver Burkeman 47:02
It's interesting. I mean, I there's a sort of sub distinction there between there's the goal, there's the things you can control and things you can't control. But then there's specificity or vagueness, in the things that you can control. And I, I do think that like things like doing your best and being proud of things, like they're really important values in life, but I can see how they're not they're not particularly helpful in this setting, because it's sort of completely open ended. And so I'm very smart. I know, right? Exactly. Either, you can either you will end up sort of not doing what you could have done, because you say, well, there was my best, so I don't care, like and you sort of you sort of make it easy for yourself, or you do what I think I would do and have done in a lot of my early adulthood, which is like, be convinced to try your best is really important. And then like torment yourself constantly with like, Am I doing my best? Is this my best? Can I you know, and those kind of open ended things seem unhelpful. You. On the other hand, if you say, I mean, this is where I feel like quantity based skills can be really helpful, right? If you say like, I'm going to put out this number of videos, or this number of, I'm going to write this many words. On a by a certain point. Firstly, it's specific. Secondly, it's within your control. And then thirdly, it's kind of, it's somewhat dreamed of the sort of the qualities of goals are sort of they they go wrong, because they're so sort of emotive, there's something kind of nice about a very, very sort of mechanistic. Yeah, so in that area, I don't think it's the whole piece of the puzzle, because I do think even though I wrote my first book about like, how positive visualisation is largely nonsense and all sorts of things. I do think there's clearly a role for kind of envisioning the having a vision of where you'd like things to be and using it to determine what you do in the, in the present. But that idea of just being maybe this is like systems versus goals, that there's that old distinction, but it's like, it's like the idea of saying like, this many words. Or, you know, just something really sort of, that sort of takes out all the all the all the angst from it. Like that's not really useful.
Ali Abdaal 49:09
Yeah, one of the things I'm thinking about because I'm, I was writing a chapter about this in the book, like this week, last week, I intend to do this week as well. But then time goes by like is yeah, like system because I feel I feel like all all of this stuff converges on a few central central themes. And we as productivity writers tried to put our own stamp on like a thing, which people have been doing for centuries, or millennia. But that aside, what I'm what I really like is that if I kind of break down my implicit process of goal setting, because it's never been like explicit, if I if I break down what that look like, what it looked like was step number one, setting a kind of destination goal that is within my control, like write a book I'm proud of just like this big project, big project. Maybe in my Mind, it's like, it would be really cool. If it hits the bestseller list, it would be really cool if I get invited on conferences and if I don't get on a podcast because that that that'd be sick, but like, those are outside of our control. So let me just not think about those. Yeah, and just recognise that actually, it's, you know, a preferred a different as, as the stoics. Might might say, right. So the the destination goal is within my control, and then I'll break that down into the kind of journey goals, which is more the system stuff. Therefore, what I like tangibly need to do is that every week or every day, I want to aim to write x 1000 Words, words. And again, that is within my control. And then kind of my step three of this three step process is for that journey goal that like, let's say, I want to write 500 words a day, to lower the bar of quality as much as possible. Yeah, I would like to live literally write my to do list, right? 500 Crappy words for crappy first draft chapter two. And I find that putting the words crappy in there twice. It really makes it easier to be okay, you know what this is actually, it's actually doable.
Oliver Burkeman 50:59
Great. It makes me think of two other things like Dan Harris, meditation writer and podcaster. Talks about doing things specifically meditation, aiming to do them daily ish. And having this built in built in fuzziness, like, because you know, whether you did something daily ish, like in a given week, you have a feel like, if you did it twice, there wasn't a leash, but but it reduces this kind of like, Oh, if I break my streak, it's all over. And I might as well spend the next three weeks not doing anything. So I think that's a, that's an important part of that. And then something I found really helpful. I don't know if this is writing specific, but like, might be just specific to writing. But it's also like not keeping going even if you're on a roll. So if you say like, I'm going to write 500 words, and you write them, and then things are going well, I don't get another 500. It's like actually making yourself stop and walk away, like that kind of enforced low balling of your, of your aims for the day. And like, that's really, I think, for people like, I suspect you and certainly for me, like that's really hard to do. Like, when the opportunity for a bit more productivity arises. And you don't take it, yes, but there's this amazing old book that I had to like buyers print on demand, because it's because it's so hard to get called them how writers journey to complete in fluency by a psychologist called Robert Boyce. And it's like a really in depth study of academic writers and what caused them to be either productive or non not productive. I mentioned him in the book a couple of times. And like, one of his big findings was that the writers who made writing into a moderately important part of their lives, work did lots more than the ones who made it into a very important part of their lives, because then it becomes this kind of intimidating thing. And you have sort of all sorts of angst about it, and you forget about it for weeks at a time because you don't dare go back into that scary thing. And part of that is like you figure out what is your short, daily session of writing. And he said, like, you know, for PUFA, sort of ammeter eyes, there might be 10 minutes a day, even the professional writers, it probably should never be more than like three or four hours. And when it's up, you just you have to stop and like go and do something else. Because otherwise you're kind of giving in to a, an impatient urge to be done with the whole thing that will ultimately backfire on you and cause you to sort of dread returning to the project, that ability to keep important things relatively small in your life. I think it's like it's really I'm not saying I'm gonna get it. Yeah, but it's really interesting.
Ali Abdaal 53:27
I was thinking about this a like, last night, I got home from here at like, 7pm 8pm Something like that. Now, like, it was like, it was like 8pm I was like, you know, I'm gonna sleep at 1030 is gonna get sorted. Like, I was asleep. Wake up at 730 Like, my flights gonna be good. I was like, I've got like two and a half hours now. What do I do with that time? And I said to my housemate I was like, right, Lucia, I could do some writing. Or I could play Playstation. While listening to an audiobook. What should I do? And she was like, Well, you know, they, he worked hard to get to this point. Like, why don't you just play Playstation? I was like, Alright, cool. And then I had a great session of playing Ratchet and Clank on the PS five while listening to the evolution of desire. Three XP and audible and it was so good. I just love the audiobook liquidation spirits. And this reminds me of something. Do you know Greg? Greg McKeown here.
Oliver Burkeman 54:18
I mean, not personally, I really like his stuff.
Ali Abdaal 54:21
So his his new ish book effortless and tells the story of like, to, it's like one of these perfect stories that I didn't I don't know how, like 100% true it is, but like illustrates the point of like, these two expeditions like the British expedition and the American expedition to the North Pole or something. And the Brits were like, you know, what? Rash probably the Americans are like, you know, every single day we're gonna make as much progress as we can. And the Brits were like, we're gonna go five miles and no more and no less on any day. Yeah. And the Americans ended up dying on the expedition and the Brits ended up just like slow snail snail mailing their way to just be able to see even when it's good weather, even when it's bad weather, we're not going to bother going above and beyond, even if we can, and there's that thing in my mind of 500 words and only 500 words or two hours and only two hours and then stop. And then I'm just not allowed to do any more writing.
Oliver Burkeman 55:07
Right. And yeah, and it's yes, I think it's great, I think and it's hard, right? Because we just as a culture, and I would suspect, especially people who are interested in being productive in that culture, like resting is difficult, like, if I have doesn't happen very often. But if I hit these days, if I have like, two hours to just do what ever I want, and I, and I've decided that it will be not appropriate to use that to power through my, my work, like that's quite challenging. It's like, it does not, things do not obviously suggest themselves to me in that situation. It's, it's better since we move to the North York Moors, because actually going out hiking in nature is an example of that, that sort of holds my attention while clearly being not, you know, more of the treadmill. But like, I think people get confused, because we've, we, you hear so much about how important rest is, people know that they need rest, they feel burned out. And then if they ever make it happen in their lives, that makes them feel sort of antsy, first. It's not. And so one of the he talks about in the book, he knows, like, you've, you've got to be ready, I think, if you want to pursue these different ways of relating to time, for them not to feel totally great in the first like half hour or first day of testing things out, because because we are just completely geared to thinking that time not spent productively as time, therefore wasted. And so like, the first half hour that you're sitting by the fire with a novel, or the first day that you're on a beach for a week's holiday by the beach, probably isn't going to feel great. And actually, if you know that it's less of a problem, because I think, then then starts to feel great.
Ali Abdaal 56:49
Yeah, I think one other thing that I that I think about on this on this topic is, you know, this idea of like stopping work at it at any particular time and how it feels like, Oh, but I could get more done if I continue to power through. It's just that like, really is again, I'm bad at doing this. But when I do I always feel a little surge of satisfaction. Just the idea that like, what am I actually optimising for here? Like, yeah, you know, if I think of what I, I guess what I want from my life, what I imagine is a life where I'm doing some reading, doing some writing and doing some teaching, and hanging out with the team, like once a week, and maybe filming a video or a podcast like that is probably the life that I'm I'm leading and finishing my book any faster. And like, I don't know, getting out one extra YouTube video this week. And stuff like these things that would it be the outcomes of me spending more time working? Like, why? What's the point? Like? Who's that for?
Oliver Burkeman 57:49
Yeah, right. When is enough? What is enough?
Ali Abdaal 57:53
You know, what I, what I try and think of is, let me sort of enjoy each day on its own merit, rather than think of the day as a, I guess, a means to an end of having a particular outcome. Because like, you know, journey before destination and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, it's making me think of a time a few months ago, when I was hiking in the middle of a weekday with an old friend and a beautiful part of the North York Moors, it just had come together that we could do this. And being struck by the thought, in the middle of this very enjoyable few hours. Literally being struck by thought, I wish I lived the kind of life where I got to do this. Like, I wish I was the sort of person who could just like, come and do this regularly. And it's like, while I was doing, right, and so that the sense of like having to become a kind of person who is so in control of stuff that you can dispense your time in these different ways perfectly, is so powerful, that it can stop you seeing that you're like, you're literally doing it in that moment. So I mean, it's not quite the same point you're making, but it's this idea that like, you've got to become the kind of person who acts well now you've just got to do those things a bit. And if things if you value things, just do them a bit. And you're and that's, that's the whole challenge. So like, I feel like this thing, I'm changing the topic, I guess, but like, I feel this whole thing of like, trying to become the kind of person who is actually a really can often be a big obstacle. Okay, so there is another cartoon that I've been thinking a lot about recently, which is him who might be familiar with but we'll, we'll flash it up on the screen, and I will describe it for people who are listening on audio. It is like, a big like an elephant, like a baby elephant in a zoo. And a kid is there with his dad and the kid points at the little elephant and be like, you know why? Why is there like a chain around his leg? And dad's like, oh, well, you know, the elephant you know is gonna escape otherwise, you know, this is how they how they keep it there. And then the kid looks at the big elephant at the mom, elephant and says wife, there's just a string around her leg. The dad's like, well, she's realised that she can't escape, or something like that. And it's like, often, the reason I think of this a lot is that often we chain ourselves with our own assumptions, even though they're not may not entirely be true. And last night, I was having dinner with Dan, who's my assistant and are like one of our one of our team members. And I was saying to Dan, you know, I really wish I could get to the point where I could, I don't know, just go to Bali for a week to do like a writing retreat or something. And he was like, but you can like you absolutely can. You know, this is your team as your business, we know that you can work remotely because we've done it. We know what you can take Gordon with you. So you can film videos while you're out there if you really need to, but like, you absolutely can. Yeah, I was like, yeah, yeah, you're right. I just had sort of assumed that I had less control over them over my time control of my time than I actually did. And in a way, it was, in a way, it's comforting, I think, to think I will write my Symphony tomorrow, especially once life becomes more blah blah blah. And when we face up to the fact that oh, crap, I actually could just just do that, then there's something uneasy about that.
Oliver Burkeman 1:01:15
And I think it's important to say like, obviously, the specific example is not open to everybody. Many people aren't in a position to go on a writing retreat to Bali. But no, but there is, there is that same equivalent situation, I think we, we do it to ourselves all the time. It's related to that. It's kind of John Paul Sartre and the idea of bad faith, right? This idea that this idea that like, and it's in Heidegger as well, if you really want to get into the weeds of this, like this idea that we that we, that we tell ourselves, we don't have choices that we do have, because it's actually much more scary to sort of face the choices that we do have. And like, know, if you're you, and you have big people have big like you can, people can walk out of relate marriages, they can walk out of jobs, they can they can, like, make the kind of public statements that are going to get them totally cancelled, you know, that you can do this, like you see, you can't do what you mean is that the consequences of it that you predict are, are scary, and they may well not be worth it in any given situation. But, but like, these choices are always there. There's a lovely quote from the psychotherapist, Sheldon cop, who has this whole list of life advice in back of one of his books. And the one I always remember is, you're free to do whatever you want, you have only to face the consequences. Right? And, and you can I find this incredibly empowering, because it's like, no, I can do almost anything within the bounds of the laws of physics and given my financial and temporal resources. And some of them would have really, really bad consequences. So I definitely wouldn't do them. Yeah. And some of them would have somewhat bad consequences, like people being disappointed in me or angry or something. And they might totally be worth doing. Anyway, I slightly move that on.
Ali Abdaal 1:03:07
No, I agree. A few few, I think was a few months ago now. I was I was here on the weekend, just because this place is nice that I wasn't moving house. And I was really thinking about kind of consequences of things. In particular, I was doing Tim Ferriss fear setting exercise on the what's really the worst that could happen, where I had this thought that Oh, what if I just stopped caring about like, the view counts on my YouTube channel? And I just like didn't let it affect me at all. What's the worst that will happen? Oh, okay. Let's actually kind of think about this and realise, actually, you know, this is actually probably a good thing overall. And there are very few worst case scenarios here that I I couldn't deal with. But I spent the last like four years kind of on autopilot, just assuming I had to care about the numbers. And assuming that like how well a video does is some sort of factor that should make me feel more or less good, depending on how well the video does. And I think it just like comes back to this thing of often. were operating on these invisible scripts with these invisible shackles where, at least at least in my life, in my experience, like the things that I would want to do or not the things that actually have consequences that I can't handle. It's just where I have made assumptions about, oh, I probably can't do this.
Oliver Burkeman 1:04:21
Yeah. And I think there's a kind of a comfort as he says, but also, there's a sort of a false sense of control in worry, right? There's this idea that like, if I think the reason that we worry on some level is because we think that we're somehow affecting reality through our worrying and it's like, well, if I, if I let my hands off the controls, they're terrible things might happen. So I'm going to keep like, keep like fretting about it. And the truth is, I think in it's possibly a sort of universal truth or is mainly just maybe just generally true, that like the terrible things that can happen in life like cataclysmic things can happen in life but they're not part of the the knowledge In the realm of the things that you might be worrying and controlling about, right, I mean, like, absolutely terrible things happen, but they will just be like, you'll be blindsided by those. And stoicism has some ways to maybe be slightly less blindsided. But, but like, the things that we worry about, we're worrying about, because we think that the worry somehow somehow increases our control over the managers. Like, it just doesn't. So you might as well not worry about them. Easier said than done.
Ali Abdaal 1:05:27
I think basically, in every aspect of my life from at least the kind of from the time that I remember vividly, like sort of end of end of school towards University and beyond. I've had, like, every few months, when I come across some article on life hacker about setting your goals and figuring out what you want. And I do like a visualisation thing of like, you know, what do I actually want? Like, what does the like a good day look like? And stuff, every time I do that, I just come up with stuff that I think there's no reason why I'm just not doing this now. Like, you know, one point a few months ago, I decided, you know, at some point, I want to get into learning how to write songs. I was like, I've got two hours right now, like, What's What's stopping me? Alright, cool. Let's just follow tutorial on YouTube and download GarageBand or something. And Megan started writing songs. Similarly, when it came to business stuff, when it came to deciding to get the studio space and building a team in person, I just hadn't really thought about it. I was like, you know, I did one of those exercises where it was like, you know, what is your dream future look like five years from now. I was like, oh, it'd be really cool to I don't know, have have a studio or something where I don't have to have cameras and lights everywhere at home and to come in on a Monday. And you know, this, there's a team there in person just like to brainstorm video ideas about and that interview people in person. I was like, Damn, why don't you do this? Because before the assumption, and the the invisible assumption I've been operating on was that when you, when you when you work with a team, they just have to be remote. And when you do a podcast interview, it has to be a resume. I think the pandemic kind of really contributed to this, right? Yeah, it was just such my like my model of the world was, how can you possibly hire someone for an in person job? I mentioned, this is where we're like, Dude, you realise that 99.99% of the workforce is in person rather than remote. I don't quite know where I was going to this. But yeah, just the this idea of occasionally coming back to this idea of like, what do I actually want? And thinking? What are the assumptions that I'm making that are stopping me from being there? And what I'm doing right now rather than next quarter next year?
Oliver Burkeman 1:07:28
Right. No, I think that it's incredibly powerful. And it just reminds me again, of when you say like, I think that it will feel uncomfortable to do that in first, right? Because that because what you're doing if you decide to spend two hours doing the thing that you've told yourself, you want to do one day learn songwriting, you know, is you will be sort of stepping more authentically into the real situation of your life. It's not a dress rehearsal, it's here, it's now it's limited, you better do these things that matter if you're going to ever do them. And that will trigger some there'll be some anxiety or you'll think like, Oh, I'm not really doing it properly now. Like, I don't have what it takes to really get into this. Now. I haven't found the right I've got the right equipment or something, you know, and you just have to sort of ride that out a bit.
Ali Abdaal 1:08:09
Two nights ago, I was at an Ed Sheeran concert in, in London. It was, it was it was it was quite weird getting tickets, because it was like only 2000 People in like a tiny church, and you had to like pre order the vinyl of his album. And I don't have a vinyl player. But I pre ordered the vinyl album anyway, just to be able to enter this competition to get tickets. And we got tickets to that. And he said a very, very inspiring story. So he's got this new Christmas song out with Elton John, you had an absolute banger. I've, I've had it. And before he sang that song, he told the story of how that song came about. And he said that for the last few years, probably he and Elton are mates. So Elton has been being like, hey, you know, we should do Christmas song together. And he was like, ah, you know, there's all others Good, good Christmas songs out there. There's nothing we can add to the genre. You know, Elton wants to do it yourself. Like, you know, maybe I'll think about a Christmas song electronic 23. And then he said that a few months ago, one of his best friends passed away. And it made him realise that like, oh my god, you know, the finitude of existence and stuff. And why am I putting off like spending Christmas with Elton John, doing this cool project with like my mentor and my friend, where we get to dress up as like city, Christmas radios and stuff? Well, I'm putting that off to let's do it now. And he said that that realisation was what made them put the song out this year, rather than 344 years from now. I just find that really inspiring of like, you know, actually, you know, the kind of the stuff that you talk about that life is short. And if you want to do something, then often there are relatively few barriers to actually let us do it now. Yeah, and it's very easy to be like I don't know I'll write my Symphony tomorrow.
Oliver Burkeman 1:09:46
Yeah, no, absolutely, I totally agree.
Ali Abdaal 1:09:50
I wonder if we can talk a little bit about the end. The practical stuff. Yeah. Cuz I was as I was listening to this, I was like, Oh, this would be a really good book to do a video about I was like, Crap, figure out a way of like turning into practical advice, and then very conveniently in the appendix, just just use those. Yeah. Think of it like, okay, there are a tonne of points in this video. Let's start with the philosophical stuff, right? Shall we go over some of your 10 tools for embracing your finitude shot is a nice little title for this. So number one, you say adopt a fixed volume approach to productivity, what's the deal with that?
Oliver Burkeman 1:10:22
This is just like a general approach to work. And I point out in the book that, you know, Cal Newport is one of the people who's writing most, in most focus way about this stuff, I think, where you where you sort of, you put front and centre, your your capacities, your the amount of time you have, perhaps also your energy levels, you think about that first, and then you think about fitting what you can into that box in terms of tasks, as opposed to I absolutely must get through these 15 things today. And I'm just going to have to like, find a way to do it. So an obvious obvious example of this is yeah, you decide that you finish work at 6pm every day. And then that creates, sort of that creates a box that's available for work that day. And the new thing, what what's most important stuff to fit into this box that I reasonably can, obviously, it doesn't get you totally past that problem of fitting, trying to fit twice as many things into the boxes as you actually can do. But it but it puts your finitude first and says like, okay, these are the facts time is limited. And then how am I going to respond to that situation today? And make the best decisions? As opposed to Yeah, like, I've got to get through this amount of stuff, even if it's like literally literally impossible, you ever.
Ali Abdaal 1:11:40
Okay, tip number two serialise serialise serialise. What does that mean?
Oliver Burkeman 1:11:44
Again, related, same sort of idea, but this is, this is sort of more longitudinal, this is this idea of limiting your work in progress, make it choosing, making, if you've got multiple big projects, to the extent that you humanly can doing one at a time finishing one before you move on to the next one. And like expecting to that that will make you feel anxious about the ones that you're making, wait. But understanding that, that that kind of willingness to feel that discomfort, but to focus in this way is actually just a vastly more practical way to make more progress. And when you do the opposite of that, and sort of try to do them all at once. Really, you're just getting into this, this desire to feel limitless to feel like you're like taking care of business, you're the air traffic controller of the world, you know. And, and it's it's a nice feeling, but it's actually not the path to getting more useful, meaningful stuff done.
Ali Abdaal 1:12:43
Nice. Love it. Oh, Tip three decide in advance what to fail at.
Oliver Burkeman 1:12:48
And the credit here, as I've seen book goes to Rachel Jon Acuff, but this is this lovely notion of like strategic underachievement, where you say to yourself, look, life is finite, and my capacity is finite, that means that I'm going to be failing at some things that I that I might otherwise succeed at. That's just maths, that's not, that's not a criticism of anybody. So if you then decide upfront what some of those domains are going to be, that's actually a much more sort of peaceful and happy way to go through life, because instead of instead of sort of getting to the end of the day, and feeling terrible, that the house isn't as tidy as you wanted it to be, or that you didn't mow the lawn or something, you'd be like, no, like, you already decided, I say, for now, for this month, for this period of my life, whatever, I'm going to not be successful at keeping a tidy house. And so that one is off the table. And then you can focus your energies more, more on things that you do care about. I have I have, you know, spent long periods of my life thinking I wishing I could get much better at cooking than I am, I'm really not a good cook. I think I can cook nutritious, basically nutritious meals from the point of view of like feeding my son and my wife tolerates those nutritious meals. And it's like actually realising, oh, it's not going to happen anytime soon that I give this the thought and the practice that it needs huge deliberation.
Ali Abdaal 1:14:10
Yeah, I've been I've been saying that for the last like four years, you know, I really should do cooking this year. And I've just been living off takeaways, like actually, you know, that's actually fine for this season in my life. Right, right. And right, so obviously, it doesn't get too too large. Tip Five is consolidate your caring.
Oliver Burkeman 1:14:28
I think one of the one of the ways in which we sort of induced by the modern world to do more than we can do is to sort of, is to care about more social, ethical, charitable issues than we possibly could. So especially with social media, you're going to be you're going to find out about vastly more crises around the world and good causes than you could possibly focus on and you're going to be everyone's gonna say that their causes the most important one in the world because that's how the attention economy works. You never get a fundraising email from a charity that says like This thing that we're focused on is the third or sixth most important issue facing the world today. So can you give us your money, it's always got to be the first that everyone's in a sort of arms race, in that respect. So I just think it's really useful for people who are, who feel that pull have the duty to like, be a good citizen. Not everyone does. But like, if you do to think like, when you see the truth of the situation, that there's more to care about than you possibly could, more than like the greatest saints in history were ever asked to care about because they didn't have global digital communication. That's when you can say, Okay, well, I'm going to, maybe I'll pick one, two issues that really matter to me, I'll dedicate some time to activism some money to, to supporting them. And then I will, like pro actively decide that the other ones are not my problem, even though they could be really serious and a level of human suffering. So you could say like, you know, what, I'm actually not going to be thinking worrying when I about like, what I can do for climate change, say because actually, like, the welfare of immigrants is my is my focus, right? And it's not because the other one isn't really important. It's that like, it makes more sense for you to sort of concentrate your limited energies in one and yeah, the other one to someone else.
Ali Abdaal 1:16:17
Yeah, there's the an organisation called giving what we can there has this some pledge that I've taken that many videos about, which is that the pledge to donate 10% of your income every year to cost effective charities? And, you know, in this whole, like, Effective Altruism and stuff movement of like, Hey, how can we do the most good with with our resources? There? Is there is this idea of that? Yes, you could donate more, it could be 11, or 12, or 15, or 18. And while we're there, why don't you stop working at your job and volunteer at this thing. And while we're there, why not like, and the list just continues. And what they found is that look, you know, we all have limited bandwidth to think about all of these things, which are really, really, really important. And so if we just set a rule for ourselves that okay, without thinking about it, 10% of my income every year is going to go to the one of the charities that give well to org deemed to be the most cost efficient. So against malaria foundation or Schistosomiasis professional, or whatever. And recognising that yes, that means that there are some causes that will be underfunded, and, but not not overly beating ourselves up about the fact that there's nothing we can do about those. Right. I think that's like a nice way of doing it, which is like, kind of this again, this middle ground. Yeah. Ooh, tip seven, seek out novelty in the mundane.
Oliver Burkeman 1:17:25
Everyone older than about 25 has this experience of time speeding up as they get older, right, so that your childhood seems like summers lasted forever. And then the older you get, the more rapidly time seems to pass, which is kind of really depressing. And the usual advice on reversing it, that feeling is to like, have lots of novel experiences. Because we process more data we process from our experiences, the more more we remember them as lasting a long time. But I'm sort of incorporating here a point from their meditation, teacher, shins, and Jung, who points out that like, if you really focus on if you if you get better training your attention to process more data from whatever you're doing. Like, that's another way to the same goal, right? So it's not just so it's not just that you have to go on like exotic trips all the time, that's great. If you can, it's that you can also just, like, pay more attention to the things you're already doing. And you will actually life will feel more expensive.
Ali Abdaal 1:18:19
Tip number eight to be a quick researcher in relationships. What's the deal with that?
Oliver Burkeman 1:18:23
I really benefited from encountering this perspective, because it's like, I think if you're like trying to exert too much control over life is a problem anywhere, but trying to exert too much control in relationships. Whether it manifests as like you being a huge controlling jerk, or you sort of withdrawing and be equipment vote like they're both sort of two sides, the same coin doesn't work because other people are kind of endlessly mysterious, and infuriating. And that's kind of like the whole the whole sort of value and point of being relationships. So this idea that like, of cultivating an attitude of curiosity, so in the parenting context, that would just be, you know, can I, if I've got like, a couple of hours, where it's me and my son, and solo, can I sort of like, ask, like, Who is this person? Like, who am I getting to? Who is this person becoming like, What, What's he interested in? What could we what does he want to do that we could do together? You know, as opposed to either, like, I've got a plan, and you've got to follow it, we have a total nightmare with small children, or the flip side of that, which will be like, I don't know, you decide what to do. I'm just here to look after you, which is also kind of like, kind of isolation. So I think that that sort of idea of like, oh, who like who is this person? I'm getting to know I think it works in all relationships. It's really, I'm not not saying I'm really good at it. Yeah. But it's that sort of openness to whatever might happen. Yeah. Instead of trying to have a strong preference for what should happen.
Ali Abdaal 1:19:47
Yes. Yeah. I think that that really applies in like the dating world as well, where I've certainly found that in the past, I would go on a date with someone the light being like, Oh, I really want them to like me, and now it's more of a it's This was a little bit of that. But now it's a little bit more on the side of I wonder what that's I wonder what this person is like, I wonder how well connected Yeah, you know, this idea of being a being a researcher, like being genuinely curious to the experience rather than wanting an outcome and trying to push towards it. Okay, so tip number nine is practical debate instantaneous generosity.
Oliver Burkeman 1:20:17
I love this idea so much I really so much a work in progress with it. Joseph Goldstein, the meditation teacher has has this practice that if if a generous impulse arises, in his mind, the practice is to try to act on it right away. So if you have a thought, like I should, I'd like to give some money to that charity, or I'd like to reach out to that friend and see how much I appreciate them, or send someone some email about their work that you that you like, like, do it, then. Because what gets in the way over and over again, is not that you sort of decide are actually they don't deserve your, they don't deserve it, I should just keep quiet. What what happens is you it just gets he just gets sort of entangled in the stuff of everyday life or in this idea that you're going to become the kind of person I was talking to someone the other day, who's whose head like, they've made some pledge to themselves that they were going to try and like send one or maybe three, I don't know, was like emails of praise to people who they really appreciated, like every week, or every day or something. And of course, the effect of that is to stop you just sending one email today, because you're like, Oh, I haven't got to the stage yet where I've really got that habit implemented. So for now, I'm just not going to do it at all. Whereas of course, the thing you ought to do, I think, and I aspire to do is to just don't worry about the kind of person you're becoming. Yeah, send that one.
Ali Abdaal 1:21:43
That's really good. This is a this is like, it's the exact trap that I fall into when, you know, this morning, I was like, Oh, I've just messaged this person who's been like a good kind of friend and mentor over the last year. I should get him something for Christmas. Okay, let me add that to my to my to do list of nice things to do so that I can bash those as tasks. And again, what I like, oh, yeah, I'm thinking about my old house, may I should probably send her a message. You know what, let's add that to the list so that when I get around to it, then I will just be able to all this one, go. But yeah, if instead, we switch to the model of if it is something related to gratitude to the do it now regardless of what is happening, that'll probably lead to a happier life. Nice. I love it. Finally, tip number 10. Practice doing nothing.
Oliver Burkeman 1:22:35
I mean, I think this is just generally excellent advice. But But I'm talking in that section about specifically about like non directive meditation, this approach to meditation where you're not even trying to follow the breath, you're setting a timer, you're sitting there not doing anything. If you catch yourself doing something, thinking about something following the breath, and wriggling around, you're just like, just stop doing that thing. Keep stopping, keep stopping, keep stopping. It makes you see how Shintani because it do nothing meditation. There are books calling it non directive, meditation. Whatever it makes you see how hard this is to do to do and it's probably impossible on some philosophical level to do nothing at all. But But this sort of action of constantly sort of letting go of the thing that you're doing. Doing nothing is really hard. And, and and I think you sort of, you can actually get some good cognitive training benefits quite quite quickly, from just a few minutes on a regular basis of really trying to do nothing. And breath following meditation, which is so useful in so many ways. It's kind of not something different. And because then you're sort of really you can there's a temptation to like, really bear down on it. I'm going to become super focused, actually doing nothing for a few minutes. Kind of the scariest thing in the world anyway.
Ali Abdaal 1:23:50
Okay, wonderful. Okay, so we've got a bunch of questions about productivity and happiness and stuff off of the Instagram and the Twitter. So close. feed those to you and we can, chat. Sure. So justgrace_ says, How do you deal with procrastination? That old chestnut.
Oliver Burkeman 1:24:07
Yeah. Well, firstly, I think everything we've been talking about here is is an answer to that is an answer that question because I think a lot of procrastination has this perfectionistic motivation, like I'm not going to start until I can know that I can finish or I know that I can do it well, and so anything you can do to just sort of fall into reality instead is going to help you with with that. I'm also really charmed by a technique that I came across. I mean, it's got other, it crops up in other places. I'm really charmed by this technique that I came across in a book called, The more you do the better you feel by I think David Parker is the author. It's kind of an idiosyncratic book, but he just has this method. He calls the just one thing method where you literally like, write down on a on a piece of lined paper, a thing you're going to do Do it, cross it out, write another one immediately below it, do it, cross it out. Continue. Yeah. It's really bizarre how this should possibly work given, especially for those of us who have all our complicated Kanban boards and all the rest of it, but it's kind of like this is a powerful way to get yourself out of a rut is just to sort of narrow your time horizon down to like, what is one thing that I'm going to do? Do that thing, cross it out? Yeah, keep making the list longer.
Ali Abdaal 1:25:29
Yeah, there's a basically my method except that they should, it's like genuinely just that one thing. Which is like, you know, the whole kind of what's the what's the most important thing that you see today? My other, my whole theory on procrastination is basically, I think procrastination is a problem with getting started. And distraction is the thing that comes later once you've gotten started. Yeah. And so to beat procrastination, we just want to make it as easy as possible to get started. So like, setting a goal within our control, making sure it's just what we've got, it's easy enough to kind of make the time for it may lowering the bar as much as possible to embrace, embrace, those probably going to be like crap, but like we do anyway. And kind of even sometimes convincing ourselves that we're only going to do the thing for two minutes. Because once you've gotten started, then at that point, it's so much easier to keep going yes, it's actually just sitting down and starting to dry the first words or whatever that feels like the hardest part. midwifesibi says, How can we think about time in a more healthy way? Like not in a race to the finish line kind of way?
Oliver Burkeman 1:26:28
Again, I sort of want to gesture to our whole conversation but you know, I think that just seeing, just just seeing the fact that the way we relate to time is, is not the only way not the only way it's ever been done. Thinking about this notion that crops up in various philosophers, that that maybe it makes sense to say not that we have time, but that we are time that we are this kind of little period of time from birth through to death. And then you can't really be you can't really be in a war or battle with that, then because you've sort of, you're thinking about it completely differently. It's just, it's just the medium in which your life is unfolding. If the question was seeking a more practical absolute, I apologise. I think the answer in a more practical vein is just you know, all the things we've been talking about to be incremental, to focus on one thing to set the goal at an attainable level, all these things just sort of reduce the reduce the the momentum of that race to the finish and bring you back to just doing the thing that you're doing right now.
Ali Abdaal 1:27:44
Syrahmahmud_ says, What are your thoughts on The Four Hour Work Week? I'm assuming she means the book rather than the...
Oliver Burkeman 1:27:51
Yeah. I mean, it had a big impact on me. Now, I was a little bit rude about it at one point when I was writing this column. Because I was a little bit rude about every successful productivity book, but I think, you know, the sort of business money making side of that was not something that I was particularly was my was my thing, but the stuff about the Pareto principle, the stuff about, like, figuring out that, like 80, that 20% of the effort you put into things, 20% of the people that you deal with deliberative percent of the value 20% of the 80% of the problems that you have come from 20% of the projects, you're involved in that sort of thing. And those kind of that was, I mean, it was a, like getting things done. I think it was like a really, really important sort of formative text in in thinking about these things in this new way. You know, I don't think it's the best of my knowledge, Tim Ferriss does not claim that he works No, four hours. And, you know, so I don't, I don't, I don't think anyone's getting to an actual Four Hour Work Week.
Ali Abdaal 1:29:07
One of his recent podcast episodes was the audio for the presentation he gave at South by Southwest in 2007, just before the book came out, and someone had found like the high quality audio of it. And it's just so interesting to hear, like 15 years later, him from 15 years ago, described the ideas in the book, which was all around the Pareto principle, this eliminating stuff and I think, Jeff, yeah, just really good. And I think, for me, one of the books that had probably the single book that's had the most impact on my life, yeah, not for me, it was less from a productivity standpoint and more from like, actually the business passive income, right lifestyle.
Oliver Burkeman 1:29:42
And the other thing I remember from there is the idea of not deferring, like the mini retirements idea. Yeah, is that is totally like in tune with what I'm trying to get out here in the sense that it's about like Not, not endlessly deferring the moment of value in life to some point across the horizon but taking it now for like going and doing that thing for a week, instead of instead of always being in the future.
Ali Abdaal 1:30:06
Makonde 15761 says, How did it feel to write the book? Was there any sort of regrets that you had about your life while writing it? It's a very interesting question.
Oliver Burkeman 1:30:17
Interesting. I mean, the process of writing the book was the process of kind of coming to understand what I believed about these things. So it was a sort of a therapeutic act. And I was, I was sort of transformative in the sense that like, I couldn't write it to the end until I'd kind of slightly become a different person. So it was very, very important. For me, it was not just a question, like, I'd figured these ideas out. And now I was going to generously write them down. For other people, it was like this was the act of making big strides in my own sort of understanding of, of all of this. Not sure. It's quite the question about regret. Looking back on it. I would say if the question is, Do I regret anything about the process of writing the book, which I'm not sure it quite was, but then, you know, there were times in that process where I was not a pleasant person to live with, because I was so anxious about it, or I was so deep in the ideas, or I was so unsure if I could carry it off and things like that, you know? And then, and then I think you become slightly sort of moody presence around your house and us. I don't think that was I think I made a lot of sacrifices to get her in, but kind of my wife did as well, a little bit. And she maybe didn't sign up for the same way that I had. So nice.
Ali Abdaal 1:31:28
Yeah, I want to ask you much more about that at lunch. Anyway, no, I showed you underscore says how do we stop the fear of missing out? Factoring in our lives?
Oliver Burkeman 1:31:39
Again, I really am sorry, but I do think this is a perspective shift rather than a cool technique. And the perspective shift is this. The problem is not that the question is not how do you avoid the fear of missing out the the trick is to see that missing out is just completely guaranteed on an epic scale. Like, even in errors before our own, but especially in this one, the mismatch between the time that you have and the time, you'll have to take advantage of various opportunities. And the number of those potential opportunities is just it's so crazy, that like, missing out, is the basic situation in life feel like, if you do like three really cool things today, there were an effectively infinite number that you didn't do. So like, that's great, actually, because then you can be like, okay, that ship has sailed missing out is happening. Now, which of the infinite number of things that I could in principle do, shall I actually do, I think that's a really, it's really helpful to sort of and then you then then you can almost get the effect, I think you can get to the state of actually taking a sort of active joy in the fact that you're missing out because it becomes an affirmation of the things you do choose. If you just if I decide to, if I feel like I sort of have to stay home at night and give my son a bath and put him to bed, there's room for resentment. But if I see that, like, I could have done various things, and I chose on some level to do this one, I mean, choices a little awkward in parenting, because he's sort of like, had to happen. But there's choice involved, if you can see that you're sort of willingly missing out on other things, because missing out is inevitable, then you can sort of really become more absorbed in the in the thing you choose to do.
Ali Abdaal 1:33:22
Yeah, it's like the difference between have to and get to. Exactly
Oliver Burkeman 1:33:25
Yes. Seeing life as a to do list you have to get through versus a menu that you're that you're choosing getting choose.
Ali Abdaal 1:33:31
Yeah, I guess recognising this is important in other areas of life as well. For example, one thing that alanda Bhutan often often talks about when it comes to ro romance is that if we marry someone, and we think that we're never going to be attracted to anyone else ever again, we're just setting yourself up for failure because of course, there are a zillion people around the world that you could be attracted to and you probably would be attracted to button The fact is that you've chosen to spend your life with this one person and embracing that. Yeah, rather than trying to go against it or thinking that it shouldn't happen is kind of this idea of kind of the joy of missing out Yes, I am choosing to miss out on these other potential you know dalliances whatever the phrase is Yeah. Alright, do a touch while says what is the midpoint of being comfortably busy but not too busy in your mind?
Oliver Burkeman 1:34:19
That's really interesting in the in the in the book I write about I think this might pass many people in the audience by what I write about Richard skerries children's books did were they part of your never had a childhood the richest guy is American illustrator who wrote these books called policies called busy town and they're just like these great super detailed spreads of like of like city life but all the people in them are animals so like you know, the the grocery is run by family of pigs and the firefighters are raccoons I think and it's all in there all the whole point is that everyone's really busy. But the but the kind of busy that they are is not is is that they have tonnes to do, and you just get an like you get the sense from, how they enjoy their business that they also think they've got about the right amount of time to do all these things, right? They're not overwhelmed. He didn't call it overwhelmed town. Yeah. Which would have been a kind of weird series of children's books. And I think that I bring this up, even though it's a cultural reference that like fascinates people by, because there's something really beautiful about that, like, it's not bad to be busy people, you know, elderly people sometimes talk about like, being busy as a positive in their life. You know, it's like, how are you doing? Well, it's good, I'm keeping busy. You know, there's lots of lots of things going on. It's like, the midpoint is, being active in the world is great, having a whole tonne of things you want to achieve is great. Thinking that you're going to achieve more of them than it is going to be temporarily possible for you to achieve. That's where you, you go over that and some that boundary. So, you know, filling, filling life with activities is a great thing. I don't think that necessarily having nothing on your to do list would be a desirable state at all.
Ali Abdaal 1:36:02
Yeah, I think I think the way I think of this is sort of like climate rather than weather. In that on a given day, I might be very quick, busy, like jumping from one meeting to another to another thing to another thing, having breakfast, lunch, dinner, and coffee with different people that are all on Monday. And that would be exhausting happened every day. But it's quite exhilarating once in a while. Yeah. And so if I, I like to sort of casually think about, you know, these last couple of weeks, how, how has my calendar felt, how is my schedule felt? And if that's like, broadly ish, yeah. Reasonable. Yeah. Then that's fine. Because I think there is a trap of overthinking. Like, on this day, I felt particularly overwhelmed because of ABC. So I mean, seasons life seasons of the week. It's all good.
Oliver Burkeman 1:36:45
Yeah. Right. And there's a very great tendency to think like, if a day goes, if a day goes stressfully Oh, no. Is my life gonna be like this every single day for the rest of my existence? And likewise, that if a day goes really well, and balanced in a balanced way, like, Oh, I've got to make sure every single day is like this for the end to the end of my existence? Yeah, not helpful thoughts.
Ali Abdaal 1:37:04
Yeah, it's kind of like, the weird, weird analogy, but like when it comes to posture for sitting and stuff, you know, everyone obsesses over finding the perfect posture. But in fact, the perfect posture is the next one. And like just changing your posture every hour, is by far the best thing you can do, rather than getting the perfect ergonomic chair, bla bla bla bla. And I think similarly with this sort of stuff, like, actually, as long as there is some balance, like, what you don't, what you probably don't want is a, you know, very, very, very rigid schedule, where every day is the same. There's it's nice to have some level of messiness in it. Yeah, that's kind of what brings the life into it. And just being a little bit more like, oh, pencil sketch about it, rather than inking it in. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Okay, next question. We got a question from Twitter from Aparna grid one. How do we decide what matters as we make most of our decisions based on based on our current understanding of the world, and we can't predict the future? How do we know that what matters to our present selves will matter to our future self?
Oliver Burkeman 1:38:00
I mean, I think the first thing to say I'm such a downer, is that you can't know. Yeah. So you know, we're all in the situation of like, feeling our way from one moment to the next. But this is where I get to mention one of my favourite questions, which I also mentioned, the book from the union therapist, James Hollis, who recommends that people ask have certain life choices they're facing, but I think you could apply it here. Does this choice in large me, or diminish me? And it's a kind of a weird phrasing, but it's as an alternative, like, Will this make me happy or unhappy? Right? There's this, there's something about the phrasing of this question that sort of, I think that most people even if you don't know whether what you're doing right now with your life is is like, making you as happy as you could be. Even if you don't know if it's the right thing or not, according to some value system you've inherited, you kind of can answer the question like, am I? Am I on a path of enlargement at the moment, and I sort of, in some sense, like, growing, and what's so helpful about that, to me is that, like, there's lots of times on a path of meaning and enlargement, but I'm not going to be fun. Yeah. So you could, you know, if you're experiencing certain kinds of tensions and difficulties in a relationship, like this question helps you divide between those the kinds of difficulties that are like, Oh, this is a toxic relationship, you need to get out of it. And those which are like, yeah, like, becoming closer to somebody in a ratio is tough, and it has interesting difficulties and you become a bigger person as a result of them and, like, you've got to be able to distinguish between those two kinds of difficulties in life because one kind you want to get rid of, but the other kind is, like totally crucial to growth. And that question, like you know, whether the job you're in at the moment is like hard and challenging and not always fun, but it's but it's something that is taking you somewhere you want to go versus like it's just making my soul with a by the day and I need to change radically, you know.
Ali Abdaal 1:39:59
Yeah, I guess, let's say again, maybe it's similar to the rock thing. But if you're if you've got like, multiple options, and they all feel enlarging in some capacity, like, like, for example, I guess kind of thinking, selfishly, I could decide that I want to take the American medical exams and do residency in the US and do practice medicine. And that would be lodging in some capacity, I could decide to apply for an MBA at Harvard or Stanford, and that would be in lodging in some capacity, I could decide to actually focus in London and grow the team. And that would be lodging, it's just like to double down on the book. Like, there's all these different options for like, for things where all options are feasibly reasonably feasibly logic. Like, really, life is not like long enough to do all of the things. Any, any thoughts there?
Oliver Burkeman 1:40:46
Wow. Yeah, like, partly, I want to, like deliver advice to you here. And then the other part, I'm just like, No, I know exactly how you feel like about that in in different contexts. It's like it's not easy. Well, firstly, like one, one response to that is just say, Great, then then that's fine. Doesn't matter which you choose? Yeah. They're all enlarging? And then the other would be that, you know, if you if you imagined yourself in those different paths, and you maybe you know, went to a quiet place, outdoors somewhere and journaled about them for a bit, would they all stay in that way? Or would you would you start to be able to distinguish the degree to which other people's or parental or societal agendas were? Were influencing one or another because like, one thing that's so interesting about the specifically medicine, right is that this is a this is a, this is a career that attracts very large numbers, as far as I can tell two kinds of people, number one, people who find it deeply and profoundly meaningful to be doing what they're doing in medicine and the other one, people who are, like, trying to please their parents who really wanted them to be talked to Yeah, that's it. Right. Right, exactly. And so that's kind of really interesting. Which side of that are you on? Yeah. So, so fascinating.
Ali Abdaal 1:42:00
How does one get over an unproductive rut?
Oliver Burkeman 1:42:02
I am gonna repeat myself here. Because the answer is that just one thing thing, I think part of the answer anyway, it's that idea of like, just drain all, if you can drain all the angst out of this, just like what is a single thing, there's a quote, actually, it's in it's in Jordan Peterson's book 12 rules for life. And so I've mentioned it occasionally. And like people get cross because he's a very divisive figure. But he says it's very non divisive thing at one point, which is, you know, what is one thing that you could do and would do right now, to add a tiny bit more order to your life, and this is where the sort of like making your bed? Yeah, cult comes from? Like, figure out that thing, do that thing. Reward yourself for doing that thing. Rinse and repeat. I think that's really helpful if you're absolutely kind of paralysed. If you're really in the kind of like, not doing anything at all kind of rut. If it's a more sort of long term route, I think, I think again, then something that is really helpful in the same vein is to is to have a creative rut, which has a question, I think, right like is, is to sort of take the creativity question out of it. So like, if you're feeling like, I can't, I haven't gotten inspiration for my creative work, then I think it's really powerful to just get quantitative about it and be like, I'm going to produce x number of words or one picture per however long and to sort of turn it into quantities and take out the kind of the, if you're feeling uninspired, I think seeking to feel inspired is not is not the way forward just like turning it mechanistic into something you can do for a couple of weeks. While you wait. Yeah, for inspiration to return is probably the answer.
Ali Abdaal 1:43:41
Yeah. Yeah. I think I think also like, I'm reminded of a think Seth Godin was saying this to Tim Ferriss. When Tim was like, Seth, I'm not writing anything, I feel unproductive. And he was like, Well, show me your bad writing. And he was like, Well, I haven't done any he's like, Well, that's the problem. Where I think often, a rush of some description is in is somewhat on the spectrum of perfectionism of like, you know, I only want to do this thing, if it'll if it will be good enough. It's like, well, I'll just do a bad version of it, like, do a bad version of cleaning your room to a bad version of reading a book.
Oliver Burkeman 1:44:17
Yeah, yeah. And I'm also thinking of another thing. There's a lovely blog post that I go back to again and again by Susan Piver, the Buddhist teacher who the headline is something like getting things done by not being mean to yourself, and it and it, it relates to this relates this experience she had of sort of really wanting to be the person who like lived by that credo of like, amateurs wait for inspiration than the rest of us just get down to work, and how that turned for her into this kind of aggression toward but they'll actually sometimes if you weren't going to do anything anyway, because you're in such a rut, then you might as well ask the question like what would be most fun to do today? Because it's not going to be worse than sitting doing absolutely nothing and feeling miserable.
Ali Abdaal 1:44:59
Yeah. Yeah, I often find this an evening sometimes where it's like, I can choose to be dissatisfied with what I've done for the day. Or I can choose to just simply choose to not be dissatisfied with that. Something often is just a conscious choice of like, do I want to continue to tell the story to myself that beat myself up about this thing? Because either way, it's going to change how much I've done, right, right now exactly what's gonna change how I feel about myself, which is all that matters. And I sometimes like, I sometimes argue this point with my mom where she says, you know, oh, the only reason you're you're saying that is to make yourself feel better about yourself. I was like, Well, yes. Yeah, that's the point. What I tell myself that story, right. But yes, anyway, final question from Twitter. I guess the question is in two parts, one, is it worth underscore times five. Baran says, is it worth pursuing something that matters to me, but isn't sustainable to do, but might be in the future?
Oliver Burkeman 1:45:50
I can sort of imagine contexts where that might apply. Right? Yeah, you kind of there might be things that you really want to do. You don't think you can make them pay, for example, and they're really important to you. But maybe one day, you could make them pay? Yeah. I mean, I mean, yes. Yeah. I mean, I think I think it's I think it's worthwhile to do things that matter that's virtually a tautology. And and, you know, one way to think about that is not to define mattering, as and I do get into the sections, but I don't define those setter, those set a definition of mattering, that is so high, that almost everything worthwhile in life fails by comparison against it. So for some people, that's like, don't some people like don't think that they can be novelists if they can't be Tolstoy, and some so it's that sort of like, you know, historic level kind of mattering. But other people might say, like, you know, what's the point in spending the next two years doing x? Because I don't think I can, then it's feasible to spend the next 40 years doing x? Well, there might be reasons to not do that, depending on your sort of highest goals for your life. But that's not a good reason to decide that something doesn't matter. Yes, it can matter to do for Yeah, a couple of vegan matters seasonally, a couple of years, absolutely can matter for a couple years, and then you move on to something else. And it matters. Because otherwise, again, you're just sort of storing everything up to this like alleged deathbed moment.
Ali Abdaal 1:47:14
Yeah. No, I think I think right now, yeah, I think that's a trap a lot of people fall into, which is, and I certainly do as well, which is the if I cannot do this forever, there's no point doing it now. Like, oh, I don't wanna start a YouTube channel, because I'm not going to be YouTube or my 50s. Like, Well, okay. That's not a good reason to not start a YouTube channel. Maybe there are other reasons like you're scared, right? You don't believe it or whatever. But like, I don't see myself doing this 30 years down the line is absolutely not a good reason. Similarly, when it comes to, you know, one thing we're talking about with, with Gordon, who's has been a personal trainer for 12 years is, can we do like a sort of body transformation for me over a period of maybe six months? Where you know, what, four times a week eat super healthily. Try not to get on the cover of Men's Health magazine just for the bugs. And it's not sustainable. Like obviously, right? That's fine. It doesn't need to be it's a bit of fun to happen in the short term. And even then it will probably if happens, which will, it's going to promote, like healthy eating, and it's going to promote some good habits. Yeah. recognise it?
Oliver Burkeman 1:48:16
And like, what is life other than like, some episodes of things that you do until you don't do them anymore? Right. So you might as well make them meaningful ones in the moment. Yeah, absolutely.
Ali Abdaal 1:48:26
And finally, what are your thoughts on the idea that, Oh, okay, so there was this tweet that came out a few days ago. I suspect the person who wrote the tweet, did it. Ironically, like knowing that this was going to rile people up the wrong way. Okay. And lots of people have become riled up the right way. So I just read the use of Twitter, you're quite hot to take, the easiest way to put yourself behind in life is going travelling for months on end in your early 20s. To quote, find yourself, it's an absolute success killer and puts you behind the majority. Why waste the key years of your life meant for building and to getting ahead? For that's the tweet, which most people are dunking on, because it's obviously bad. And I guess this person once told to dunk on that, like, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, exploring yourself is like a success killer and want to get ahead in life.
Oliver Burkeman 1:49:13
Get down to business. Yeah. Found thoroughness. Yes. Be on your way. Exactly. Well, the first thought I have about that is that like, it's, it's obviously nonsense from a certain perspective, which is the perspective I know, most naturally want to take. There might be industries where that is, like, true relative to that industry, like I don't know. And I wouldn't want to, like give people terrible advice, because I don't know their industry I can. I'm sure there are, like, places where the path of advancement is, is structured in such a way that that becomes true for that industry.
Ali Abdaal 1:49:51
I think it's pretty true in medicine, right? And you spend your 20s like, striving for this thing, that you can then enjoy life in your 30s or 40s.
Oliver Burkeman 1:49:58
So first, you have to see that it's real. Is that industry? So the question is, does success in that industry matter to you more than anything else? And massachi More than exploring and finding yourself in your 20s? And they might do? And then if you turns out that that was the wrong party, you can always go and explore and find yourself in your 40s. I mean, like, plenty people do that. But no, I mean, it's obviously not it's a it's a comment that you're going to tell me now. It's from bite made by some, like close friend or somebody I wanted, like me or something. I don't know who that's all. That, like it's a it's, it's an, it's an observation that, that takes as read precisely the thing that we're, like, should be debating here, which is like, what is a meaningful life for you? It assumes that professional advancement in the industries where this applies is the thing that matters the most. And then it says, Well, don't do this other thing. It's like, maybe if you're someone who, for whom, what matters, sifts out that way. But if you're not, then it's kind of ridiculous. I think it mainly just shows that that that kind of very specific advice then offered to literally everyone, yeah, as if it were applied to them all is just is crazy.
Ali Abdaal 1:51:08
I don't really know if we kind of touched on this. But do you have a theory on how to how to figure out what actually matters to us? Big question.
Oliver Burkeman 1:51:15
Well, the enlightenment a diminishment stuff that we talked about as a part of it. And then I was very conscious and deliberate writing this book, for example, of not wanting to offer a laundry list of not wanting to be like, Oh, relationships, time spent in nature, getting enough sleep, you know, it's like, either people know all that anyway, or it's gonna be lost anyway. Right, whatever. You know, it's, I can't help you with that. And I'm not necessarily a sort of great exemplar of it, either. I think basically, most people, certainly my real experience of this question is just in terms of how it how it goes in life. It's not a question of like, you spend a week at a retreat, and you figure the answers out, and you never return to it. Lots of books that I remember criticising, in my early days in the colour garden column, you know, they give this idea that you're going to, it's like, first of all, figure out your like, colour, or like, once you've done that, and you're like, hold on a second. Yeah, like, and I think that seeing it as seeing these things as part of a as a, as a part of the journey that is always there on the journey, right. So I think like, I think it's helpful to think of the process of being alive and moving through life as the process of clarifying what a meaningful life is for you. Instead of this, I mean, I'm not saying help sometimes to like, go and spend two days coming up with a vision statement, but like that, that's gonna then change and have to adapt within within days, presumably, I think the idea that you're going to sort it out that we all have a single stable purpose, and then you've got to just spend the rest of your life executing on this insight you had. I didn't know anyone for whom that worked that way. And it certainly didn't for me.
Ali Abdaal 1:52:51
Yeah. I've tried all these exercises. And some of them have have have been useful, but in the sense that they just give clarity, and we encourage us to ask the sorts of questions we just wouldn't normally write. But I think I just come back, come back to that, like, tightness of gripping metaphor that you rightly said earlier, which is that gripping too tightly to a vision statement, or values or anything like that, it's not that the values of the problem, it's that the tightness of gripping is the problem. Yeah. And we relax our grip and be a little bit more chill about it.
Oliver Burkeman 1:53:21
And it's great to put time and thought into, you know, your plan, that is just a statement of intent in the present. It's thinking that your plan is anything more than that.
Ali Abdaal 1:53:34
So we normally to wrap up with a series of just some quickfire questions. Question number one. What piece of advice would you give to your younger self?
Oliver Burkeman 1:53:41
That the feel of this is very easy, I'm trying to phrase it right. I mean, it's basically it's basically something like, you don't need to struggle so hard to like, justify our existence on the planet. Nice. Little bit candid.
Ali Abdaal 1:53:58
That's good. I love it. Who has had the biggest influence on your career?
Oliver Burkeman 1:54:03
That is a really hard question to answer. I think that two editors, The Guardian in cats and Murphy Mills made probably the biggest like opportunities they offered me or things they saw that figured out that I could do with their with their under their guidance, probably made the biggest difference, but they're also like, the very first people who got me my very first start before that, and then my parents like I could answer that question a million ways.
Ali Abdaal 1:54:33
What is one tip for someone looking for success?
Oliver Burkeman 1:54:42
Focus on one thing at a time.
Ali Abdaal 1:54:45
What does the first and last hour of your day look like?
Oliver Burkeman 1:54:50
I've talked about my first hour get up about five 0530 ish drink coffee right in my journal. Last hour is sort of stumble around in a in a bleary eyed state sort of closing down the house and having sort of probably read to my son and then sort of reading or listening to podcasts until I fall asleep. Not very interesting.
Ali Abdaal 1:55:24
thWhat's a one physical thing maybe under 100 pounds or there abouts that has added disproportionate value to your life?
Oliver Burkeman 1:55:32
Well the tiny little digital kitchen timer that I think was 20 pounds that I carry everywhere and having my bank run out, is certainly I do use that for like, sort of various ad hoc time boxing operations. So So that's, that's at that price point. Instead of your phone. That's probably true. Yeah, I just, it's it's separate. It's like my phone can be put away while I'm focusing it buzzes Yeah. It doesn't have doesn't lead me into other things. It's, it's single, single task technology. I'm really, yeah, you talk about that. And I'm really looking at a different price point. It's not under 100. But just released. I just mentioned it. If you're interested. I have this. This tablet called remarkable.
Ali Abdaal 1:56:17
Oh, do you like it?
Oliver Burkeman 1:56:18
I am loving it.
Ali Abdaal 1:56:20
I tried it for a few weeks. Everyone went back to the iPad. Like why do you like it?
Oliver Burkeman 1:56:25
It's just so quiet. You know? Like mentally quiet. Yeah. Like, it's not I'm not gonna click away. Other things. It's just paper, except it has a few benefits and a few downsides, compared to paper, but like that, and it's just like, it's physically a pleasure.
Ali Abdaal 1:56:38
It is nice to write on. Yeah. Maybe I should do my remarkable today. Maybe it's not, maybe it's not for you. Because I do really like the Kindle for that like, right, as opposed to reading on a phone or an iPad, just because there's zero chance of getting distracted. Yeah. And the only thing I could get distracted by is another book, which is a good distraction. Right? Exactly.
Oliver Burkeman 1:56:54
You end up sort of like searching the Kindle store in order to not focus on the book you're reading, but that's okay.
Ali Abdaal 1:57:01
What book other than your own would you recommend to anyone?
Oliver Burkeman 1:57:04
At a certain point in life, I would recommend a book called finding meaning in the second half of life by James Hollis, who I've mentioned, although there may be people in the audience here who are like it's a bit of a middle lifey kind of...
Ali Abdaal 1:57:21
What's something you'd recommend to me like you have a bookshelf, we probably read the same stuff. Yeah. Is there anything kind of a bit off the beaten track? Like maybe that didn't hit the New York Times? Yeah. that you find really interesting.
Oliver Burkeman 1:57:52
Let me think I will get there. I'll just need to you need to cut out the bit where I'm starting here, we can run into a search function into my brain.
Ali Abdaal 1:57:58
It seems like a lot of philosophy stuff. Yeah. Like, I feel like I need to start reading a bunch of this stuff, because it all is all the stuff that we read about 1000 years ago.
Oliver Burkeman 1:58:08
Yeah, I mean, I think you know, the certainly the stoics. In the original I really, that's not a problem to read Heidegger. I kind of made a show in the book of the how difficult it was to grapple with Heidegger, I do not recommend that people. Like, go and read, being in time, just for fun, because that is so crazy. On the writing front. It's not a new, it's not a new observation at all. But Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott is a really, really good book about writing. Sadly, you haven't heard of it? Well, we can introduce it to a new generation, Anne Lamott Bird by Bird instructions on writing in life.
Ali Abdaal 1:58:42
Oh, sick. All right. I'll get that. And I guess the next question is more like applies to entrepreneurs. I guess in your case, you're basically an entrepreneur. If you lost everything, let's say some level you got cancelled, you lost all your money and lost all your following. Didn't have the book didn't have the publishing deals, what would you do to rebuild?
Oliver Burkeman 1:59:00
Because it would depend how cancelled I was. Because you know that the thing that I would do, based on my skills and contacts right now is I would reach out to various editors for whom I've written things in the past and see if they want to be derailed. But if I've been if the idea is that I've been cancelled so much that none of them will talk to me.
Ali Abdaal 1:59:17
Or that kind of in this hypothetical version, you're kind of starting from scratch, right? Yeah. Do you don't have anything other than the skills that you've developed?
Oliver Burkeman 1:59:24
Right? Yeah, that's interesting. On one level, I sort of have explored all these different areas. And I feel like I know quite a lot about quite a lot of areas. But on another level, there is one skill that I have, which is like, talking about people really bad stuff and turning it into pieces of writing. So I think I would have to like so I guess how the idea is, is the idea of the ideal art social makeup heavy, because the idea that you're going to say, you're going to find a totally different professional way of the same things apply, or is it just that you'd like start again, because I think I probably would have to just like write stuff.
Ali Abdaal 1:59:56
I guess the question is sort of aimed at sort of people in their probably early 20s or late teens are trying to figure out what to do with their lives and want to find like a path to I don't know, salvation.
Oliver Burkeman 2:00:08
I mean, I think yeah, you know, I think I'm fascinated. I don't think I'm not saying I could do it. Yeah, I'm kind of fascinated, because I think I'm probably too self centred. But I'm fascinated by the career of both careers of like, psychotherapists like landless people like that. I think that would be very, very interesting. I could probably be an academic of some, some kind, but I'm not sure I'd want to be, I'm really lamely, answering this question I don't know, is the answer.
Ali Abdaal 2:00:35
How hard will it be to get to? Hell? How hard is it for someone to be a professional writer these days? If that makes sense as a question?
Oliver Burkeman 2:00:44
I mean, it depends on what you mean, if you mean, can you make exclusively make a handsome living solely off the income from books themselves, then that's a very small number of people, okay, I think, or it's people who are so frugal that they're able to make their book advances spread out over multiple years.
Ali Abdaal 2:01:01
I guess, as a writer, there are other business models, right?
Oliver Burkeman 2:01:03
No, no. And if you mean, you know, if you mean to have a book, get an advance of the book, build an audience do certain kinds of paid work that you wouldn't have got in the absence of the book, like, I mean, there are more of them. And I'm one of those, I think now, probably more than I am a freelance journalist in terms of the day to day content of my work. But if people think it's like, you sell, you sell, like, millions of books, and you make huge amounts of money on each one, like, none of that applies, except maybe to like, you know, five people on the planet.
Ali Abdaal 2:01:35
I think it's kind of how being a YouTuber, yes, there are five people on the planet who are making stupid amounts of money off the back of their YouTube channels. But there are plenty more, who are making stupid amounts of money off the back of YouTube channel plus the other things that obviously off that and just thinking more intelligently about the business model and making a course maybe writing a book, maybe like, sort of doing the other stuff that becomes available as an offshoot off of sharing something you enjoy and building an audience around that thing. I think if I if I lost all the things, I would probably just do that again. Because I just feel like, right time time, and it's kind of fun.
Oliver Burkeman 2:02:10
Yeah. Again, I'm responding to the thought experiment by questioning the premises of the thought experiment, which is a noxious thing to do.
Ali Abdaal 2:02:23
What quote or mantra do you live by?
Oliver Burkeman 2:02:25
There isn't just one that I'm thinking of every single day, but the ones that sprang to mind? Partly, I've mentioned James Hollis, does this choice enlarge me or diminish me? Sheldon cop? You're free to do what you want. You have only to face the consequences. And question that I think I I am borrowing from a conversation I heard Sam Harris talk about he wants his his once having where he was moaning about his problems in his work or something, somebody and she responded like, hold on, do you think you're you under the impression that one day you're going to get to the stage of life where you don't have problems? So some formulation of that? It's like, no, the problems are. I quit my wife now. But like, sometimes when I'm complaining about the problems that are keeping me from getting down to the meat of my job, she'll say, based on her own understanding that she learned in her own work, like, no, the problems are the job. And like, that's a very freeing thing to realise that, like, you're not going to get to the point of without problems. That's not a mantra. Wow. That's a long mantra. 350 word mantra.
Ali Abdaal 2:03:33
Yeah, the problem. The problems never really go away. They just change.
Oliver Burkeman 2:03:38
Right. And you get to choose some really great ones. Yeah, if you're lucky, but there's still problems.
Ali Abdaal 2:03:43
And finally, a journey or destination?
Oliver Burkeman 2:03:45
I've got to question that dichotomy. I don't accept the distinction. What do I mean by that? I'm not sure what I mean by that. Let's just say journey. But I think that there's something of the destination in every moment of the journey. There you go. Join my cult.
Ali Abdaal 2:04:06
I love it. Alright, Oliver, thank you so much. There's been absolute joy. Anything you'd like to plug to the audience, we will have links to the book guys really get on Audible.
Oliver Burkeman 2:04:18
The book is available all the places you'd expect to buy books. And then at my website, oliverburkeman.com. There's more stuff and you can sign up to my email newsletter, which I call the imperfectionist.
Ali Abdaal 2:04:30
Oh, it's nice. It's a good name.
Oliver Burkeman 2:04:33
Thank you. Alright, thanks. Cheers.
Ali Abdaal 2:04:35
Thanks for listening, everyone. We'll see you later. Alright. So that's it for this week's episode of Deep Dive. Thank you so much for watching or listening. All the links and resources that we mentioned in the podcast can be linked down in the video description or in the show notes depending on where you're watching or listening to this. If you're listening to this on a podcast platform and do please leave us a review on the iTunes store. It really helps other people discover the podcast or if you're watching this in full HD or 4k on YouTube, then you can leave a comment down below and ask any questions or any insights or any thoughts about the episode. That'd be awesome. So yeah, thank you very much for listening. I'll catch you hopefully in the next episode.
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