E2 The Real Meaning Of Productivity | Unjaded Jade

Ali Abdaal 0:00 Hello and welcome to deep dive the podcast that delves into the minds of entrepreneurs, creators and other inspiring people to uncover their journeys towards finding joy and fulfilment at work and in life. My name is Ali and in each episode I chat to my guests about the philosophies, strategies and tools that have helped them along the path to living a life of happiness and meaning. This week I chatted to youtuber content creator and now bestselling author Jade in the episode we have a very productive conversation about finding balance within hustle culture, motivation, book writing, reshaping the definition of career, the law of attraction, opinions around toxic productivity and much, much more. You know, we love a side hustle, it's great, but not at the detriment of killing yourself in the process. You leave this episode with techniques for living with intention, including Jade's hashtag casual magic mantra, a tonne of study techniques and productivity hacks, and a little more perspective about what it really means to live a productive and meaningful life and career. Jade, how you doing? Welcome to the podcast. Jade Bowler 0:56 I'm doing good. Thank you for having me. This is so strange, because I have seen this setup for years. And now here I am. Ali Abdaal 1:02 Here we are. Yeah. Last time we spoke was about a year ago. Yeah, maybe more than a year ago on like a live stream. And so this is the first time we're meeting in the flesh. Jade Bowler 1:12 I know like you in 3d. Ali Abdaal 1:14 Yeah. Any kind of jet setting all around the world, like Korea and San Francisco and Berlin and stuff. And now you're in the UK for a few weeks. Yeah, we found time fun time to do this thing. How has all the travelling been? Jade Bowler 1:25 Oh, gosh, yeah, so I studied in South Korea last semester, which was amazing, like, Oh, just so culturally different. But it was so nice to be able to experience with all my uni friends as well. Ali Abdaal 1:37 I feel like also the some people watching this or listening to this might not know who you are. So I wonder if we do a quick kind of dive into your backstory. And then we'll come along to talking about this as bad boy, the book, it's such a pretty book. It's like so nice. It's like so well done. But we'll we'll gush about the book in a moment. How would you describe what you do if someone asks you like you're at a party or something someone's like, so what do you what do you do? How do you how do you answer that? Jade Bowler 1:59 Oh, that's a tough question. I say so I make videos. Just short answer, long answer. So I guess I started in a space of YouTube called study two, I feel like most of you are very familiar with the productivity space. And yeah, I'm kind of talking about my journey of GCSEs and a levels, things that helped me study tips, productivity, advice, all of that good stuff. And then I took a gap year, and I've logged my travels and my journey there. And I think, especially as someone who was always, you know, very into academics, it was a big leap out of my comfort zone and my gap year, so it was courting people along that journey. And now that I'm in university, I make study content about that. But it also follows just my life, living with intention. And yeah, trying to trying to inspire people to love themselves go out of their comfort zone, that kind of thing. Ali Abdaal 2:54 That's a pretty good, a pretty good, like pitch. The trying to inspire people to love themselves get outside of their comfort zone. Has it has always been that, like since you started the channel, or has the sort of the thing that you're trying to inspire people to do. Has that evolved over time? Jade Bowler 3:08 Yeah, I think when I first started just in the study space, it was a lot more niche. The goal was, you know, just trying to help people feel less stressed about school. So whether that was equipping them with more tools, you know, study techniques, trying to reduce the stress that you feel when you've got an exam coming up. But over time, it's definitely evolved to be more holistic about you as a human, as deep as that sounds. Like I like to talk about things like loneliness, and all these struggles that we find perfectionism, fear of failure. Yeah, and I guess school is one element of that, but now it's more holistic. Ali Abdaal 3:43 How do you decide what you want to talk about? Okay, so I have like a brain dump place on my notion, I have it on my phone, haven't my laptop. And whenever I have a random idea, or I've read a book, or listen to a podcast that just sparked something, I'll just drop it there. And then I kind of, I think similar to you, I have a Cambon board and I sort of drag ideas that are like, Okay, this is like an actual idea. And whenever I have a dull moment, I sit and sort of script it out. And then when I come to film, I sort of just select from the scripts I've already got. How do you think about this balance between? Will this video perform well on the start? versus Is this a video that I want to make personally? Jade Bowler 4:24 It's a tough one. Because I think as you start to do YouTube, you definitely know what will do better and worse, I started to think about value and impact in less just a numerical sense, but also thinking, Okay, this might be a really niche topic. But if you watch this, and you got a lot of value from it, like that should mean more to me than just, you know, like 200k views. So it's kind of this balance between what I really like making what I think will create the most impact but not necessarily be most widely reaching. And then a few videos which get some new people in, I guess. Ali Abdaal 5:00 That's a pretty good way of looking. Looking at it. I've kind of been thinking similarly as well, like we were, we were having a content planning brainstorming session this morning. And there are a couple of videos where I was like, I know the video is not going to do well. But I know it's like a good video to make. And it's the sort of video that I want to make, because it's like the right the right sort of impact. So it's cool that you're also thinking in those 10 because I feel like we both been doing YouTube for like four and a bit years now. Yes. And so I feel like for me, definitely at the start, it was I just need to get videos out. And then I think for me, about a year or two, I was like, Oh, I became like numbers focused thinking about the algorithm a lot. And now I'm kind of like in a stage where I'm trying not to think about the algorithm as much as possible. Jade Bowler 5:43 No, I think you've got a good thing going to because you post so much content that like the perfectionism about it changes, right? You're just like, just post you know, it's got to be done. And especially when he's doing like, three videos, than not all three of those videos needs to go viral, right? So then it allows you to play around more and just do stuff that makes you happy. Yeah. Ali Abdaal 6:02 So your, your strategy for YouTube in the early days is quite interesting. And I often use you as an example when I'm speaking to other other kind of like wannabe youtubers, where one approach to YouTube is just like, make a load of stuff. And you'll be really bad initially, and you'll get good over your first 100 videos, and then you can start thinking about what to make stuff about. But when we last spoke, you said that your approach was a little bit different. Can you can you tell us a little bit about what was your approach to YouTube back in the day in 2017? Jade Bowler 6:29 Yes. Okay, so I think I had this thing in my head, similar to being a study person was, I need to study YouTube a bit before I just dive right in. And so I chose this arbitrary date in the future, it was two months down the line, February 17, I still remember. And between now and February 17, I'm going to teach myself how to edit. I'm going to learn a little bit about SEO optimization, all these things I knew nothing about. I'm gonna go on YouTube on the creator side and do some learning there. And I feel like that gave me a lot of confidence in not only the kind of content I want to make, I also felt like, okay, cool, like, I can make videos that hopefully someone will want to watch. And obviously you do learn a lot through the journey. But my approach was, sort of work that out beforehand. Ali Abdaal 7:13 Yeah. And how did that go in the early days? Jade Bowler 7:16 Quite well, I think I got quite lucky, though. Because I found this niche of YouTube where, like, people clearly wanted it, but it wasn't really a thing. Yeah. So my first videos, obviously, they got like, 50 views, I lit literally nothing. But I was already getting comments from people saying that there was about like, value here. And that was something that made me know I was on the right track. And then in April of that year, I went from 400 subscribers to 10,000 in a week, which is very, and it was like my embarrassing little channel that I had suddenly became like, oh, wow, it's like she actually has a channel now Ali Abdaal 7:55 from 400 subscribers to 10,000 in a week, what did that feel like? Jade Bowler 7:59 Oh my god, it was insane because I was on the Easter holidays and I was in year 12. So you know, I go on to the Easter holidays, and I have an embarrassing channel. And then I come back and all of a sudden people just know about it. My embarrassing channel and, and I had a chemistry my chemistry teacher came up to me and she was like, we've all watched your videos in the staff room. being like, wow, like, God, people are seeing me that drew my heart, but even my teachers. Yeah, it was very weird, like, hard to process. Ali Abdaal 8:31 Sure. And did you have any sort of background in video stuff? Or was it like completely self taught? Jade Bowler 8:36 No, completely self taught. That's the beauty of YouTube is you can learn from YouTube. Ali Abdaal 8:40 Yeah, the thing about embarrassing channel like how did how did you? Because even today, it's kind of cringy having a YouTube channel especially in the early days. Yeah, cuz we idolise you know exactly. Yeah. And like I've spoken to so many people who spend a lot of time on TikTok and if I if I've asked them Have you thought about creating the TikTok oh, gosh, I could never do that. What if I dig down it's often embarrassment and cringe or the two words that come up but you refer to your channel as like your embarrassing channel, but you but you did it anyway. So like, How were you thinking about like the embarrassment and cringe factor of having a YouTube channel? early on? Jade Bowler 9:14 Okay, so I have a theory that if you hide it, it gives people a reason to make fun of it. Because it's like if you're trying to hide it then clearly it's there's something embarrassing about it. So I did the opposite. I remember I put on my Instagram page, which was just full of like friends and family. Oh, hey, guys, I'm starting this YouTube channel. And I'm really proud of it. And that sort of means people can't touch it now because I'm claiming that I'm proud Ali Abdaal 9:37 Yes. And it would be mean for them to then be like, Jade Bowler 9:39 exactly, yeah. And so I think the more that you can own it, even if secretly you feel embarrassed, the less people can say anything negative about it. Ali Abdaal 9:47 Okay, so you just pretend like you're totally cool with it and like, like proud and all that kind of stuff. Did you get much kind of hate back in the day? Jade Bowler 9:58 Oh my god, you know, we first have a piece of paper. He was that sounds so stupid now that I say it. And so someone said, I like a horse. Like, oh, like you're such a horse face, which would have been fine, right? Like receiving that once. But then they started commenting on every single video like, Oh, hey, hold space like, Oh, your nose just like I actually really got to me. I remember, I would like look at myself in the mirror and be like, Do I look like a horse? And yeah, so I think you know, when you're not accustomed to receiving online hate, like anything, mildly negative is really new and weird. But yeah, I think over time, you know, you numb yourself to it. Ali Abdaal 10:40 Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's four years on now, your channel is absolutely enormous. And like ridiculous, successful by any sort of reasonable metrics. How do you think about the hate aspect of it these days? Like, do you get much hate these days? Jade Bowler 10:53 I think it like fluctuates. Yeah. But of course, it's always gonna be that it's been there since the start, less horse face comments now. Yeah. Yeah. I think part of it is like just thinking about all the positive people that you're impacting and trying to like, remember, in those moments where you get, you know, 10 comments, which are hateful, that you have 1000 of people who, whose lives change whose day you changed who you made smile, or any, any of these moments? Yeah, like that stuff is more important. But then the brain just isn't great, is it? Because it's so funny, you can get 1000 of those comments, and you don't remember them like you do that one, bad one. So I think it depends on my own mental state. Like, if I'm really stressed at uni, or other things are going on about in my life, I find it affects me a lot more. Whereas if I'm in a really good state, then it's like, well, shut up. Ali Abdaal 11:48 Yeah, I know what you mean. It's, it's kind of the same for me. I think for the first few years, I like I didn't really get many hate comments at all. And when I would, it was just kind of be funny. But recently, there have been like, quite a few, like very specifically targeted ones where I sort of feel like it is starting to affect me, and it is often related to what else is going on in my life. Jade Bowler 12:06 Yeah, for sure. Do you tend to reply to them? Or block them? Or leave it? What's your strategy? Ali Abdaal 12:11 I would never reply to that. Like, occasionally I would like hot them and stick it on my Instagram. So yeah, that's quite funny, so funny. But the ones that are like really sort of close to the bone, I tend to just kind of look at it, and then I'll ignore it. Speaking to a few other youtuber friends who get far more hate comments on like tech videos and things. And they just delete them and like, hide the user from that channel. So like, they can still the user can still comment and still sees their own comments, but no one else sees that comment. Yeah. And I like Initially, I thought that that's a bit of a weird strategy. Like, why wouldn't you want the hate comments on the videos, but then these guys were saying that like, like, 99.9% of the comments are really nice. And most people will scroll down the comments and see what's going on. And like even if someone wasn't thinking something negative about a video, if they see a negative comment about your about the video, it will colour their impression of you and stuff. Jade Bowler 12:57 So true, it's like giving someone a new lens to see you through. Ali Abdaal 13:00 And so like this, that that's why she's like, yeah, if you notice anything negative, just like delete it. And I've been doing that recently, and it's like, what is it for you? It's freeing. I can just delete this comment. I don't have to worry about it. Jade Bowler 13:11 That's so cool. This is my comment section. Yeah, I can do what I want. Yeah. That's awesome. Ali Abdaal 13:18 So we're, we're, we're four years in and while at university while doing YouTube, you found the time to write and publish a book. Yes. How? What was that? How did how did this How did this start? Jade Bowler 13:31 Yeah. Okay, shall we go back to the beginning. August 2020. Yes, although before that, I'd always wanted to write a book in this space. Actually, the first job I ever wanted to have was to be an author, but a fiction so I've always loved writing I wrote wattpad fan fiction. I was that person I think from the video description. No, thank you it's so tragic. I read it back the other day. It's embarrassing. Ali Abdaal 13:57 What are we writing fanfiction about? Jade Bowler 13:59 If I say I know people are gonna go find it. But but it was a cross between the divergent and the Hunger Games. Okay, nice. Yeah. More saucy elements Ali Abdaal 14:11 Same characters? Jade Bowler 14:12 No some, it was like a follow on it was like the kids of some of the characters. Ali Abdaal 14:17 Oh, and there was some kind of love story in there somewhere? Jade Bowler 14:21 Oh, you've got to have some romance. I had no romance in my life like 14 so that's just like I would live it through my fanfiction and you know, I I'd name all the characters after my friends in real life. And then this is just like the most indirect non controversial way of dealing with friendships but if something was going wrong in a relationship in real life, I could just kill off a character Ali Abdaal 14:43 Were you writing like a series of fanfiction? Jade Bowler 14:47 No, it was just one really long fanfiction of like 100,000 words for the Hell yeah. Wow. Okay. I think everybody should just write another chapter for all my fans. Ali Abdaal 14:59 And people were reading this stuff at 14.? How does that work? Like I have zero experience with that. Jade Bowler 15:08 Okay. Yeah. So it's, it's good. It's kind of like a social media of books. Okay, so you you decide to create a story. And then you like publish a chapter and then you just keep publishing them. And people can follow along the story and be like, Oh, hey, like waiting for the next chapter. Wow, this chapter was amazing. And then you can say, oh, every Saturday at 10am. I'm going to upload the next chapter. Oh, yeah. And then you can kind of comment and also influence the story, I guess, because the author is going to continually write it while reading comments. Ali Abdaal 15:36 And is this wattpad stuff still going on? Jade Bowler 15:40 It's alive and thriving Ali Abdaal 15:41 I'll check the website out. This sounds great. Okay, so you started with saucy crossover fanfiction at the age of 14 and a half. And now we've got the only study guide you'll ever need. Jade Bowler 15:56 Yes. Okay. So when I had the whole YouTube success, I guess you could call it in study tube. I was like, Okay, cool. Well, people, people were clearly interested in this. Yeah. And I know that I would have loved a book like this that discussed not just really good study tips of how to succeed, but also the more holistic elements of being a student. So all the perfectionism fear of failure discussion that I loved talking about on YouTube. And I realised that in my gap here naturally, as my life would go on, I wouldn't be talking about this stuff all the time. So I really wanted an evergreen medium where I could dig into it with all the meat that you can't always get into in in a YouTube video, and it could live on beyond me. something where you know, you don't have to go and watch all these bite size videos. You can just like everything I've ever said online pretty much isn't here animal. Yeah. Ali Abdaal 16:52 Okay. So you started with a fanfiction, then you decided you wanted to write the book? How did the sort of how did the book actually end up manifesting itself? Jade Bowler 17:01 Yes. So in my gap year, I started writing random passages of this potential book idea I had in my mind, but I never really committed to making it an actual thing. It was just an idea I had I remember writing in my journal, like, I'd love to write a book on this. But so you know, I went to university life takes over to write all these essays to stressful not gonna write a book. And then last summer, during lockdown, I was approached by a publisher, and they were pitching a book almost exactly like the one I'd written down in my journal. And it just felt like, I don't know, it just felt like a synchronicity. This this moment of, if I didn't write this now, I'm probably never going to write it. And I know that I would have wanted to read something like this. So I said, Yes, knowing that it was going to be incredibly stressful to write this during my university semester. Because the aim was to have it to be published in August of this year. Ali Abdaal 17:53 So you got the You got it. Basically, 12 months ago, ish, the publisher approached you, and you just bashed it out at that time. That's pretty incredible. Because so for a bit of context, around the same time, a publisher approached me to write book, and I'm still dabbling with the proposal, and like, it's gonna be due to be released in like, two years from now. Jade Bowler 18:15 We need to dig into this and tell me about your proposal, your fears about it. Because I feel like the book for you. I remember watching your video where, you know, you sort of gave up on the book. Yeah. And it was exactly the time that I was like, crying over how much I was struggling to write my own book, and I felt so validated in your video. And I honestly wanted to, at that point, I could relate to everything you were saying about, you know, your fears of having an audience and the expectations for it to be really good. And then your personal pressure of wanting to be like a best seller. Yeah. It's a lot. Ali Abdaal 18:50 Your's has become a best seller now, hasn't it? That's pretty cool. Jade Bowler 18:55 That's really cool. And unexpected, and I wasn't going for that. Ali Abdaal 18:58 Okay. Were you actually not going for that, or were you like, sort of semi going for it? And like, trying to convince yourself you want? Because that's sort of what I do. Jade Bowler 19:08 Yeah, I think at the start, yes, yeah. Obviously, who doesn't want to bestseller. And I think the beauty of having a platform is you feel like it could be with it. But I think during the writing process, every time I had to sit down to write, I was just filled with so much dread. Because every single word had to be a best selling word. And like every paragraph, I'd read back and be like, but is this best paragraph, you know? And I'm comparing it to all these incredible books like atomic habits or you know, because I've changed my life and thinking, okay, but this is nowhere near that standard. So I think in order for me to finish it, I had to reshape my narrative around Okay, what I wanted my book to be in order to finish it Ali Abdaal 19:55 What did you do to change that? What was that narrative in the end? Jade Bowler 19:59 Kind of how I deal with perfectionism in general, is fuzzy finish it. Like Don't overthink every single word you're writing, just get it down, you can edit it in the process. But secondly, I think actually, maybe the first time I heard this was you telling me was there are no unique messages, there are only unique messengers. And as always stuck with me, the fact that, you know, this doesn't have to totally reinvent the wheel. It's already being reinvented through the fact that it's coming through my mouth, I guess, through my experiences, and sort of finding value in whatever I have to share. And clearly, there's something valuable about it, because I've been able to build a platform off of talking about these things. So that was also this confidence boost of being like, gee, you have something to share. It just doesn't always feel like it's that valuable. Ali Abdaal 20:49 Yeah, yeah. Yes. And I suppose when when you're writing a book, it's like, this is a book, and a book feels like a big deal. Yeah, a YouTube video doesn't feel like a big deal. Although like, weirdly, you know, your YouTube videos, well, we'll get more views, then. Yeah, almost anyone will ever sell any copies of a book. Yeah. So it's weird that like, you know, you can get a million views on a YouTube video, if you had a million copies of a book, you'd be like, kind of world famous, like, level, like life changing. But there's something about writing a book that makes it feel like a really big deal. And I don't know if you have this, but like, I like like, basically, every week, I need to be told that my experience is valuable. What I have to say does have does have worth because I always think like Why the hell would anyone give a possible, say about anything? How did you kind of go about, like, approach that? That side of it. Jade Bowler 21:36 I feel like I still struggle with that even thought of like, talking about the book and marketing the book, even though like I'm so proud of this thing. There's still a part of me that doesn't like talking about the book, because I'm so scared that like, it's not good enough. Like the imposter syndrome. I don't think it ever goes away. Yeah, because you're not an author. You're just a person, right? A person who's written a book, but that is what an author is. And that's very much how I feel. I feel like I'm a person who's written a book, not an author. Yeah, so I don't know, I think just support like having good people around you, like you said, being told, is good is good. Like, I have an editor and I forced her to have a call with me every week. And I forced her to like, go through my work with me, and also just kind of like, validate that it was decent. Yeah. And I also sent it out to like teachers and students then got feedback from people who, I guess said it was all right. And yeah, and I was like, wow, okay, then I might as well keep going. Ali Abdaal 22:36 Yeah. So there's a thing called London's London writer salon, which is like, they have like in person events, but they also have like four times a day, writers hour, which is like a zoom co working session. Oh, and so I joined us for the first time, like, last week, and then like 300 people there. And it was the people from all around the world joining a different time zones, and it was facilitated by this person who is an author, and they had like, five minutes at the start. Where is it free? Oh, it's free. Yeah, he just joined it's like a zoom call. It was it was like a really good poem about combating imposter syndrome, oh, author. The problem is a comic where I saved it. This is the issue with having like a zillion note taking apps. Where oh yeah, it was this. This guy called Garth Greenwell, who is apparently an author. And in this, like London writers group, every, every time they do a session, they share words of wisdom to keep you going as a writer. So there's the quote, I remember thinking as an MFA student, that the anxiety I felt would lessen when I got an agent, then when I sold a book, then when I got my edits, then when the book was published, then when I got my first review, then when I got a particular review, then when I finished the second book, then when I sold a second book, etc. at each point, the content changes, but the anxiety remains the same. The only time the anxiety lessons is when I'm bent over my notebook, doing the only work that matters, trying to write a decent sentence, then another decent sentence, then one good page and another. I was like, oh, like extremely related. Yeah, sure. We're gonna take a very quick break to introduce our sponsor for this episode. And that is brilliant. I've been using brilliant for the last two plus years. They're a fantastic platform for learning maths, science and computer science with engaging and interactive online courses. 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It's also great for learning how to code which is an incredibly useful skill to have, especially if you want to start a business and I attribute like 98% of my business success to the fact that I learned how to code when I was in secondary school. So if you want to check out the courses on math, science and coding, Besides that, head over to brilliant.org forward slash deep dive, and the first 200 people to sign up about link will get 20% off of the annual premium subscription. So thank you brilliant for sponsoring this episode. Jade Bowler 25:10 So where are you at? So you have you made multiple proposals, but none of them feel good enough. I remember you writing like a manuscript to Ali Abdaal 25:16 Yeah. So we're on their third version of the proposal. And the this now feels good. So it's taken 12 months to get to the point where like, finding the proposal feels good. And my agent and editor said, sort of the soft deadline is the end of this week. And so I'm going to do a little sesh tonight doing chapter outlines. Oh, got a call with one of my helpers. Tonight at 9pm doing some more like chapter outline stuff. Then we figure out the sample chapter. Like the weird thing about a proposal, as you know, is you've got to pretend like you've written the thing official, you've actually written. How did you go about structuring, structuring yours? What was the other process? Jade Bowler 25:56 Yeah, I think what was helpful for me is I already kind of had an idea of what I wanted to do in my gap year. So I'd already written some passages. And so I've had these chapter outlines. But that was when I'd only done school. So now I sort of had this more life experience from university and other things I wanted to add. So I sort of just blurted out everything that I would want to include. And then sort of just found a structure for me, it wasn't actually too hard to structure it. Okay. Yeah. Don't overthink it. Just write it. Ali Abdaal 26:37 Okay. I think I'm just overthinking this. Like, I need to have the perfect structure. Everyone keeps telling me that it's just a proposal that can always change. Jade Bowler 26:44 Okay, I'm interested as well, because I thought you also have people involved in your book, right, helping you out with it? Do you think that adds pressure? Or do you think it's helpful? Ali Abdaal 26:53 I think it's helpful. But one thing I've realised over the last 12 months is that I can't lean too much on other people. Because really, like, no one knows what they're doing. We're all just making it up as we go along, kind of realise this, that, I think I was hoping that I'd be able to, like hire someone who's like, worked on books before, and just like, they would produce something magical. And what it took me a year, the last year to realise is that and something of quite quite a few of them have said about themselves is like, like, if we could write a book, we will be writing books, we will be helping authors write books. And so really, it comes from the author, and they just kind of mould it into shape. And the other thing is that like that, that thing of you that you said that, you know, you've built an audience through sharing your the stuff that's authentic to you, authentic to you. And so that should probably be the stuff that's in the book, rather than thinking that someone else could like, I don't know, mind your brain for all the stuff and turn it into this magical, like life changing thing. So it's really nice having people helping to sort of sanity check me. And it's really like validating when I think yes, I think I've got the perfect structure and I share it with someone and I'm like, Oh, this is really good. Okay, that feels amazing. It feels amazing. It's like, Oh, thank God, I'm not just in my head. Yeah. But yeah, I think if I had, if I if I didn't have anyone helping with it, and I just, I just did it myself. I suspect I probably would have got to a similar point sooner. I just not like overthought absolutely everything because there was a point of like too many cooks potentially spoiling the broth. Yeah, sometimes. And did you have that at all? Jade Bowler 28:28 So I purposely, like didn't get too many people involved? Because Yeah, I feel like with me, I feel judged if I'm sharing it all, like all the ideas to many people, because sometimes I have to like have an idea and then flesh it out and write it a bit first before I want to share it. So I feel like if I was like, I don't know, share an idea with someone in a zoom call and it was shut down straight away. I wouldn't even give it any life or flesh that thing out that I thought could be good. And so yeah, so for me, it was really helpful. Just having an editor. You know, one person she's, like, deep in my book understands me understands the vision. I talked with her once a week, but not like overdoing it with overthinking. But then that's just like me as a person. Ali Abdaal 29:09 Interesting. So this is book I'm reading a called it's called radical candour. And they talk, it's sort of the sort of management business II type book. And they tell the the author tells a lot of stories from her time working at Google and working at Apple, and around this idea of creativity. And she's she says that the mistake a lot of people make is that they don't realise that when something is just an idea that you're very, very fragile. And you don't want to pay anyone to shoot the idea down why it's fragile, and you want them to help build it up while it's fragile, and then once it's built up at that point, you want people to start trying to poke holes in it. And that was like a real revelation for me because I think I do the thing of I have a half baked idea. Yeah. And then I share it with someone and they shoot it down and they think okay, well that's stupid. Yeah. And then you don't flesh it out. But unlike, like, obviously a half baked idea is very easy to shoot down. I need to flesh it out or help get people to help flesh it out before Then, you know, presenting it to the world for it to be shut down. Yeah, if that makes sense. Jade Bowler 30:05 That's so interesting. Yeah. Do you feel like you've learnt a lot about yourself through the process of trying to write this book? Ali Abdaal 30:11 Yeah, I do. I'm curious like what have you learned about yourself and then I'll share mine so far. Jade Bowler 30:17 Firstly, I think I procrastinate so much more when I have like loads of expectations about something you know, I want this to be good. I want it to change people's lives. I want it to be a bestseller all of these unnecessary things that I'm applying to something that you know isn't even there yet hasn't even been written. Yes. And secondly, I really need like a solid space like a writing routine around a place Oh, like the like for me. I had a cafe in Seoul that I when I went there, I would never bring other people I wouldn't let go my phone like I had complete sanctity of space over this little cafe. And I would go there and I would just sit for like three hours and write and then leave and as soon as I stopped writing I would leave and for me that was like the most productive time of writing the book at any point was when I had developed that that place yeah. Ali Abdaal 31:11 Amazing. I feel like that's what I'm missing in my life right now. Because I'm trying to do the writing kind of here and there sometimes at home sometimes like we work but it's always in the middle of other things and I never have like a clear three hour block to just write stuff Jade Bowler 31:23 Yeah, I was gonna say cuz like you I guess have many things on your mind right? You have YouTube you have like other work that's why you didn't have that because like I was doing uni like how to uni essay jus all the time I had like two essays a week sometimes the social life the YouTube everything, that if I didn't have the separation, I don't think I would have written anything. Ali Abdaal 31:45 What was your like? What was your routine like was it like writing every day writing. Jade Bowler 31:50 I couldn't write every day as he was just too much. I'd write like a few times a week but based off of my schedule, okay, so I would block off in my calendar, like three hours to go to that cafe. And I would just sit there and write Ali Abdaal 32:04 Okay, I'm gonna start doing this from like today, just blocking out time to write. I haven't really been doing that. And it's like, surprisingly hard to make progress in like 20 minutes to half an hour segments here and there, show me that like, uninterrupted time to just think and get stuff done. Jade Bowler 32:18 I actually like the first 20 minutes is like, I just write crap. Like, I just sit that write to get yourself into the flow. But the good stuff doesn't come until like an hour in. Yeah. And then you have like a really good hour session of writing. Ali Abdaal 32:32 Did you find as well that like, writing stuff down helps you think stuff through? Jade Bowler 32:37 Oh, for sure. Because I also find that I get off topic in my mind if I'm not writing it down. So it's like, Okay, cool. I know, I want to talk about x, like this thing in my head. So let me like, think about it. Let me try and develop it in my head. It's not going to happen. If anything, I'm going to start overthinking something else or Yeah, so definitely thinking through on paper is the best and then you can read back, this horrible thing you've written turned into something good. Ali Abdaal 33:03 So it sounds like so from from August through to March, he was sort of chipping away at writing mistakes. Yeah. What happens then in the book, publishing slash editing process? What does it What does it look like? Jade Bowler 33:14 Oh, my God, it's fascinating. There's so many parts to publishing I just didn't even know existed. So yeah, so I went through my editor, then it went through a different editor, then went for a different editor. And then there's someone called a proofreader, who literally just goes and like checks for grammar mistakes. And what the editors do is they just check for kind of grammar mistakes too, but just like more, reword sentences, if they sound horrible, and the beauty of that process is it's really collaborative. So like, everything's like, you know, sent back to me, do you like how I've reworded this sentence? No, I'm like, No, like, let's change that back. But they didn't do any major changes. It's just like small things. And then after it's been sent through a proofreader, it gets typeset, which is, you know, just someone's whole job to put the words on a page. Yeah, so that all of the like production side comes in. They do the illustrations, I got to collaborate with the designer on that. And then the cover was happening the whole time I was writing. Ali Abdaal 34:12 How did/they pick the title? Jade Bowler 34:17 This is this is probably the most pretentious title of all time. Can you tell I didn't pick it. Yeah, I mean, it kind of says what it does on the tin Yeah, like a bit of pretentious added in. Yeah, I think just in the world of studying you need something that's like just is obvious what what it is. I came up with loads of metaphorical names which were not good like what? I don't remember I had like notion Pedro just like brain dump things. But the publisher came up with this, and I don't mind it. Ali Abdaal 34:54 How did you feel about the pretentiousness of it? Jade Bowler 35:01 I think it's the same, the same imposter syndrome feel as if the law of me has decided that I've written the study guide you will ever need it. It's very pretentious, but I don't know, I think in the world of sales and marketing is Ali Abdaal 35:17 It's very good title. But it's, I think it was, who was I speaking to? Who I think Shane mentioned to me that youth, maybe you mentioned one of the videos or something that you thought this was pretentious honour, when we were doing research for this interview. There was a bit a bit where you said that this title was pretentious. And now like, I never once thought of it as a potential title. Until I heard you mentioned there was like, Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, I can see. thing. Yeah. And I imagine this is so much of like, you know, stuff is a bigger deal in our heads than it is to anyone else. And like, they just have to go do so. Yeah. I'm just saying like, I'm thinking at all that like, Who the hell is did the Jade bowler tell me he's the only study guide I'll ever need. But that's probably what's going on. Jade Bowler 35:56 Every time someone looks at this book. Does she think she is? Yeah, no, I had to have so many hype up chats from friends about the title of this after it got approved. Ali Abdaal 36:08 So let's let's let's talk about some of these chapters. It's also very rich, this is a nice book looks like. It's got like illustrations, it's got like, I don't know. It's like really pretty would like illustrate like, oh, how did? How did you decide what you wanted the illustrations to be? And like? Were you imagining it being like a pretty looking book, from the stars or more like an atomic habit test? Like, lots of text type work? Or what? Jade Bowler 36:36 This is definitely prettier than I thought it would be definitely more text heavy because it you know, you have some beautiful like illustrated. Have you seen women don't know you pretty great, though. Yeah. Okay. I feel like it's become a trend in the book space to have, like, instagrammable books with, you know, yeah, thank you. But those are even more like illustration heavy inside. So I wanted to have an element of that that's something you know, you can just snap some photos for Instagram of the diagrams and get something out with them. And also appeal to like visual learners who might not have the time to read everything. And I wanted to have this, put it in practice. So it's like, oh, you know, if I can't be bothered to read the whole chapter, I can just skim through the summary of the most important points. And I also wanted to break it up by having contributions from other people sharing their experiences. Yeah, I knew it was gonna be text heavy. Ali Abdaal 37:40 So chapter one motivation. Yes. What's the sort of the thesis of what's your thesis about motivation? Jade Bowler 37:49 Good question okay. So in this chapter, I, well, the first line, I think, captures it. When I got a D, in my first a level chemistry test, I convinced myself that it was bad luck. And I sort of first dig into sort of failure and how that's really on motivational. And then breaking down. What kept me trying after I had this horrible experience with a teacher that was just not good. And in my chemistry class, it went from, like, 28 students to nine students the next year, because of, you know, issues with the school. And that was a point in my life where I really felt like giving up on this subject, and how I eventually found motivation. I'm also conscious that you believe motivation is a myth. Ali Abdaal 38:37 That's just a title of a video. I don't actually believe motivations. Jade Bowler 38:43 I mean, so yeah, so I sort of dig into this idea of what gets you motivated is having a y of some kind, okay, whether that is, you know, a long term goal of somewhere you want to end up, you can have like an extrinsic source of motivation, which is something like a grade you're trying to achieve, or university you're trying to get into. But also trying to find this intrinsic sense of why is it you're studying, like, what is interesting about these subjects, even if you can't find anything naturally, you need to convince yourself that there's something interesting about this, like these maths problems are the basis of so many incredible things that maybe you are interested in. Okay. And then yeah, using that motivation to then put the systems into your life, which I then dig into for the rest of the book. Ali Abdaal 39:28 So it sounds like if if, if something is like a doll on the surface, you're saying that we can like essentially talk ourselves into thinking it's less doll? Yes. And that gives sort of the spark of motivation, which then once you build the systems, then you can stop relying on motivation, like how does it work? Jade Bowler 39:47 Kind of yes. So I believe that motivation is kind of just about the narrative you tell yourself about most things in life, right? The idea of being demotivated is you not wanting to do something You don't want to do it for a reason of what you're telling yourself about that thing. So if you're you're not motivated to study, why is that? Do you not like the subject? Why don't you like the subjects? I break it down into things like conformity? Is it because your peers around you don't like that subjects? Is it the expectations people are placing on you, for example, you have a teacher who believes that you're just not going to succeed. And you've told yourself that you want others to see you succeed in the subject. And asking yourself the series of questions that break down. Why it is you're not trying, and then trying to find motivation through reshaping that Ali Abdaal 40:39 oh, nice, that's some good stuff. Jade Bowler 40:42 I say it so much better in the book I feel like, I'm just rambling. Ali Abdaal 40:52 So we've got chapter two, the academic system, chapter three, how we learn, and I noticed that there was a cheeky forgetting curve somewhere in there. Jade Bowler 40:59 Yes. Ithink there's also I could be wrong, but a little contribution there. Someone? Ali Abdaal 41:06 Yes. I was I was flicking through this. And I came, I saw forgetting curve. And then I stumbled across my contribution, like a little bit, a little bit later. What is the forgetting curve? For those? Jade Bowler 41:16 Oh, I feel like everyone in your channel is very familiar with the forgetting curve. Okay, so there's a guy called Hermann Ebbinghaus. He's a good friend of Yeah. And he basically did loads of studies about human memory. Found out that, you know, when you when you're learning something, after a certain period of time of not reviewing it, your memory decays exponentially. But if you review the same bit of information at regularly increasing intervals, you can boost your attention back up to that 100%, which is why we have something called spaced repetition. I don't know as your brand, have your brand value the space repetition. Yes. Which is the idea that you review information at these regular intervals to combat that forgetting curve. Ali Abdaal 42:06 How would you personally recommend / do you personally organise your like Spaced Repetition timetable? Like how do you how do you do it? Jade Bowler 42:15 I use Anki, which is like a flashcard service that effectively does it for you, I also use Quizlet. I actually have a spreadsheet, which is great. I also use it so I have notion for like my timetabling of my life. I also have a spreadsheet for all my different university chapters. And then I use Anki. Ali Abdaal 42:33 Okay, do you have stuff that is like not? Because Anki is very sort of like one bite at a time type stuff? What about more like conceptual stuff? Or broad picture stuff? Or, you know, what is this person's theory about this thing? Which would actually spend like two pages rather than one? flashcard? Yeah. Do you? would you would you use Spaced Repetition for that stuff as well? Jade Bowler 42:55 So I combine it with other techniques. I don't know if you heard of blotting with this. Oh, this is honestly my favourite technique. It's kind of active recall. But I just it's a technical blessing. Where you choose a chapter or a concept or a process that you're trying to learn. You give yourself a few prompt words from that chapter. And then effectively you just blurt out everything that you can remember from this process or topic or chapter. And then you you can set a timer you can do how much you can do in five minutes, and then compare it back to your notes and then with a highlighter, fill in everything that you didn't know or that you've forgotten. And then you compare that back. And I think this is something you also talk about which is you know, it's not about shoving information into you it is about forcing it out. And that's how you learn and then going back and noticing what you don't know. And so I use spaced repetition in how often I blurt. Ali Abdaal 43:50 Nice. Yeah, the whole like it's it's it's a country intuitive, in a way where we just assumed that the way we learned stuff is by putting information in, but we actually learned stuff by taking information out. Jade Bowler 43:59 Yeah like it completely contradicts the whole like, I'm just gonna sit and highlight a textbook from three because although it's strange because you feel the most intelligent when you're reading the textbook, right? Like Yeah, cuz I agree that is correct. Like, it makes sense. Whereas it feels stupid when you're trying to drag information from your brain and nothing's coming out. But that's, you know, when you're learning you're actually learning. Ali Abdaal 44:21 Yeah, yeah. So we've got I imagine we've got all of the whole active recall and, and stuff in here. I was intrigued by productivity hacks, chapter six. This is sort of up my street, like, what would you say are the are the key productivity hacks that you found that you found help? Yes. Jade Bowler 44:39 So I kind of after having read so many different productivity books, I wanted to break it down to the most simple that a student who doesn't have time to read 1000 things on productivity could just easily implement and a lot of this is based off of the Pomodoro Technique. I'm sure you guys are familiar with productivity. face. But the idea that you know, you set a timer you choose one task, focus on over 25 minutes and then give yourself a break. I think that's just an amazing one to beat procrastination to be more productive. And also I actually, I think I quoted one of your your productivity equation Ali Abdaal 45:17 You have actually yeah, I think we can do this chapter and I saw that Oh, I think I also Yeah, I added something to it. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So what's your productivity equation? Jade Bowler 45:27 Okay, so my productivity equation is what made the club will go back to the classic one. Yeah, so the classic productivity equation is obviously output over time. So in a factory, you know, you're trying to produce the most products in the least amount of time, or using the least amount of resources. And what I added to this is, if you multiply it by focus and forethought, I think that is that's how you know, the most productive, and then the whole chapter is based off of around this equation. So the idea that if you can reach this level of deep focus, whether that is having sanctity of space, like for me, going into my cafe, deciding actively that I'm going to turn off my phone and go into this place, will be far more productive, and the work is going to be more meaningful. And then forethought, is the idea of planning, you know, having your notion page, your timetable. And any planning that you do will make that time much more productive. And then here's where I bought it from you fun? Because Ali, you know, life's fun. Ali Abdaal 46:31 Yeah. That's a really, really interesting model. So productivity equals output over time, multiplied by focus multiplied by forethought thought multiplied by five by three. Jade Bowler 46:40 Yeah, three Fs. That's really good. And then the chapter goes through, like focus for thought fun. Ali Abdaal 46:44 Forethought feels a bit a bit shoehorning into the three. But it's gonna be memorable. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm doing this all the time in my book is like, I've got a word for it, but it just, I need like three C's, or three hours or three hours or something. But I'm gonna I'm gonna remember the three F's. Now that's like a really, really interesting way of looking at it. And I suppose once you've got an equation, you can then target different bits of the equation, actually. That's the thing you care about. How do you feel about like toxic productivity? That gets ballied about quite a lot? Jade Bowler 47:19 No, it's a really good thing. This is what I talked about in it the second half of my book, like all the stuff about mental health, perfectionism, hustle culture, all of that falls into toxic productivity. I think it's people misusing the idea of productive productivity is spending your time Well, yeah, I agree. That's literally the definition, right. And that doesn't mean sitting and revising 10 hours, which is what productivity has often come to be associated with. And I think if you reshape it to view productivity as just spending your time well, whether that's for enjoyment, resetting self care, then that always isn't a toxic productivity. It's just you're not spending your time in the best ways for you. And yeah, and I think it is so important for young people to take more time for things like mindfulness, where you like, totally switch off from the internet. And in the chapters talking about exam season, you know, you're kind of like a warrior going into a battle. And when that when a warrior is, when a soldier is going into battle, they're thinking about their diet, the thinking about the levels of grass, they get, you're in a good night's sleep before all of these things. And when you're in exam season, you start to do the same. And one of the most productive things you can do is looking after yourself. So Ali Abdaal 48:40 Yeah, I sometimes get messages from people being like, how do I study when I'm tired? Or how do you pull an all nighter? I'm just like, don't do it. I did a little lighter. There's like almost nothing to be gained from from doing that stuff. Jade Bowler 48:53 What are your thoughts on toxic productivity? Ali Abdaal 48:55 Basically the same as yours? To be honest, I think the way I usually so I often get accused of sort of peddling toxic productivity stuff as do a bunch of other I don't think you did, because you're very under sort of self self love type thing. And to me, it's just a bit baffling. Because, to me, productivity is doing the things that matter to us. Yeah. And so to me hanging out with my friends, I would consider productive. And like playing Ratchet and Clank on the PlayStation. If I'm taking a break, I would consider productive Yeah, but I think it's too easy. It's very easy for people to look at a headline 14 hours talking with me or something like that. Not actually watch the video and realise that it's actually four hours working on the rest of it's just banter. Jade Bowler 49:42 And the advertising around this video for it to do well on YouTube to be something sometimes a little bit extreme. The Only Study Guide You'll Ever Need. Come on. It doesn't mean I think it's the only study I'll ever need. Ali Abdaal 49:54 Yeah, yeah, there's bit of artistic licence in the type of stuff. But yeah, my theory I mean, I I fully agree with your perspective on this doing doing more of the things that matter to us. Whether that is taking a break, hanging out with friends, hanging out with family and doing things that are meaningful to us. So the forethought bit, and having fun along the way. Like if you do more of that, like, I don't know how that can be, that can be toxic, but I guess it's it. I don't know. Jade Bowler 50:17 Yeah, or even focus. For me, the idea of that is, when you're relaxing, you shouldn't be focusing on all the things that you have to do. And, you know, like, Oh, I should be revising right now. Like, focus on just watching that film or enjoying time with your friends. It's like being present is productive. Ali Abdaal 50:34 Yeah, no, absolutely. How would you define hustle culture? You mentioned that? Jade Bowler 50:43 Okay, wow, this is a, this is a big topic. I feel like we have just been trained our whole lives to value things with output that's tangible. So you know that whether that is a grade, that is the university that you're going to the work you're going to get for a paycheck, like all of that has some kind of goal you can work towards. And so anything like self care, where the thing that you're achieving isn't tangible, we just don't value. You know, when, when that's looking after your mental health, it's not a tangible output, so you don't put the same time and energy into it. And that's so toxic. We've got this culture where it's like, everyone wants a side hustle, which, you know, we love a side hustle, it's great, but not at the detriment of killing yourself in the process. Because that takes out the fun that takes out all of it. Yeah, Ali Abdaal 51:34 yeah, this is something that like, I often struggle with, it's very much a first world problem, where I will feel guilty when I'm not doing something that generates economic output. Like in the last few days, I got the new Ratchet and Clank game on the PlayStation is, you know, game I used to play a lot when I was like, between the ages of eight and 13. And it's been really nice to spending an hour in the evenings, just like shooting some people with like the cartoon. But cool, it's really good. It's like very kind of charged game. But I've historically been like, sort of flip flop between like anti video game and pro video game, anti video game, because it's a waste of time that you know, is not generating economic output pro video game, precisely because it's a waste of time that doesn't generate from a guy who had this, this kind of stuff. And I feel like for me, the more successful I become in sort of output terms, the more the goalpost changes, and I think I've been now we've got a team of like, 12 people, and now you know, I should always do more, right? Yeah, I should be doing more because now these people's livelihoods are dependent on my YouTube channel being successful. How do you like, how do you kind of find time slash make time for the self carry stuff that's not associated with economic output. Jade Bowler 52:50 I think in just the same way that you plan your time, for the things that create economic output, you have to plan your time for the things that don't. At least that often helps me so like, for me, I just have a really strong routine in the morning, which sets my whole mind up for the day like... Yeah, so I will do a yoga meditation, like almost every morning without fail, and I find the days I don't do it, I'm just a worst human. And that's not something that's gonna make me money, or, you know, it doesn't contribute to Yeah, doing my job better even I guess it does. Yeah, it's just something that makes me feel good every morning. I do that. Yeah. And then also something I'm trying to do is on Sundays, just not touch my phone, or, you know, try and like not be in the social media world as much as I am in the week. And then I feel like when I've when I released this need to share. I also don't, I'm not in hustle culture as much. Because I think being in the study too wild or the productive world. You feel like you have to be doing cool stuff so that you can share the cool stuff. And then when I've decided we're not going to share anything today, then it's like half the pressure is gone. And then it's like only myself I've got to do it for and then I can just enjoy my time a bit more. Ali Abdaal 54:09 Interesting. What is your What is your yoga and meditation practice look like? Jade Bowler 54:13 Yeah, I do YouTube use videos. If you know yoga with Adrianne. Ali Abdaal 54:17 Oh, yes. Started with 30 Day Challenge. Oh, about day. 709. What happened? I forgot to do it one day and then yeah, I intended to do at some point. You know, that? Classic? Yeah, Jade Bowler 54:32 I really like her. I also really like yoga with Patrick Patrick and calling. He's like tough power yoga, which I really like. So I do like a bit of hard like soft yoga. Good. breathing. very wholesome, you feel safe and present. It's lovely. Yeah. And then he's a bit more like, Okay, I'm sweating. So that's that's like a nice balance for me. And then I always do like a five minute meditation on insight timer or YouTube. Ali Abdaal 54:59 Okay. Nice so you just like wake up and decide to put on a random YouTube video or do you have like a playlist that you work through? Jade Bowler 55:05 Yeah, again, it depends sometimes, like put it ready on my YouTube the night before, just like reduce the friction in the morning when I'm tired. I can just wake up and do it. Ali Abdaal 55:13 Now remember last time we spoke that inspired me to get a yoga mat. Oh, I now have a yoga mat, which is like behind that curtain over there. And I was using that for like home workouts and like yoga sessions during lockdown when that was a thing. But now it's entirely non existent right now. But I'm moving to London in about seven days time. So I'm, that's exciting that now should you get hot yoga. I really want to try. So good. I've heard good things. Have you ever tried acro yoga? Never have I also really want to? Yeah, that'd be absolutely sick. Yeah. Do you follow Sam colder. And Chelsea Koi and stuff on Instagram are the really cool to these like, travel vloggers Instagram people. Sort of they do these incredible, like acro yoga routine. So called, like, incredibly safe. He's got like, pack abs like, it's like absolute goals. And every time I see one of their videos, I'm like, well, this looks Yeah. It looks really hard, though. Unknown Speaker 56:15 No, that's definitely a goal in my life to try that. Ali Abdaal 56:19 Yeah, I'm gonna try and do a few classes in London one day. I feel like I'm deferring a lot of things to once I moved to London, then I will do x. I feel like it's too easy to do that for a lot of things in life. Well, that's what once I finish uni, then I'll tell you yeah, oh, yeah. Once once I get promoted, then I'll be happy. But why not today? Why not? Today? Exactly. I should just do today. Jade Bowler 56:40 Do you have any things that you feel connect your mind and body? What does that mean? That's a deep question. So for me, I find Yoga is a practice that really just makes me feel more like present. So my mind is like switched off. I'm in my body. And then for the whole rest of the day, I just feel like more grounded. More connected. Ali Abdaal 56:59 I know what you mean. I have this on Friday morning, and I have my tennis lesson at eight o'clock. Jade Bowler 57:03 Oh, wow. There you go. Ali Abdaal 57:05 I yeah, that's that's the feeling. I always feel like really good after that. Like sort of ready to crush it the rest of the day. Hmm, I should do more activity in the morning. Yeah, that'd be a fun Jade Bowler 57:17 It just sets up your whole day to be better. Ali Abdaal 57:20 So meditation as well, I i've been dabbling. I'm on day four of Sam Harris's waking up app. Oh, yeah. I've been on day four for about a week now. So what does the app have? You do? It's just a very beginner 30 day course for now. Okay, cool. She's like, sit in a quiet place. And then you have it in your airpods or whatever. Yeah. And it's mostly like breathing and he's like, occasionally it's like, Okay, at this point, you probably find your mind is wandering. Don't worry. Jade Bowler 58:05 How do you find it? Do you find you're like, able to generally focus on the guided meditation or your thoughts everywhere? Ali Abdaal 58:11 I find I'm usually able to focus on it. I just I feel like I haven't done it for long enough to actually get the benefits of it. Because I do it for a day or two. Once I speak to someone like you like meditation, yes. And then something or the other happens like a zoom call at 8am. And yeah, and then I think what the hell am I doing I can literally do whatever I want. I choose my own schedule. This was the point of all of this like yeah, I don't know side hustle stuff. And yet the calendar still feels outside of my control. So I need to I need to sort this out. Jade Bowler 58:38 Wait, were you saying recently that like, you kind of feel to gets taken up by a lot of managing people? And yeah, as opposed to just doing activities for you? Or like general strategy, I guess for you as a person? Yeah. How has that been this shift of managing people Ali Abdaal 58:54 It is really fun. And I used to think that meetings were a waste of time. I used to look at people's calendars who have like meeting after meeting after meeting and things like how can you possibly get anything done. But now that I've got a fairly big team, it's like my time is actually best spent in a meeting sharing some ideas and a vision and basically telling other people what to do. which feels really good. But then if I take a step back I'm like, I've just been in meetings like literally from nine o'clock to five 5pm and I've got like a three hour long podcast and I've got like another zoom call with my writing coach and now it's like 11pm like it's like when you're in it you don't realise just how like all encompassing how all soul sucking it can be. And then occasionally, when I find time to take a step back, I think what the hell's going on with my calendar. But I'm finding that given that I live my life by my calendar, I have now blocked out for hours Wednesday afternoons called Ali's time to think that like no one can prop anything. Yeah, and I will try not to bring my phone into that. Yeah, just like, right or just go for a walk or things like that. The other thing I'm trying to do is scheduling something in at like, five or 6pm for an hour, like an activity or something which forces me to get out of the office or get off my computer. Yeah. And then that's like a reset. Jade Bowler 1:00:14 Yeah. And then we'll be more effective up till then. Right? Cuz you're like, I need to get it all done by that point. Ali Abdaal 1:00:18 Exactly. And then in the evening, if I really want to, and I'm really enjoying it, then I can choose to do more work. Yeah, things that look like work. Yeah. But if not, then I can just play PlayStation or hang out with a friend. Oh. So that's, that's the theory. Anyway, I'm gonna implementing it over the next few weeks. And I'll report back and let you know how it goes. Jade Bowler 1:00:35 Wow, that's so cool, though. This shift to, I guess managing the whole company. Right? I heard you saying that. You were reading a lot more books in the business space. Has that been helping you a lot? Ali Abdaal 1:00:44 Yeah, I feel like every time I read any business book, I'm like, Damn, I wish I'd discovered this sooner. Because again, like a few years ago, would have been like business books. What a waste of time. You learn business by doing business? I was like, Oh, actually, these guys, these guys had like 40 years of experience running. Like they know what they're talking about. This is some good advice. So now I'm finding that Jade Bowler 1:01:05 something I'm interested in, is your idea of hierarchy in your business. Okay. Yeah. Do you feel like a superior to the people you're working with a lot of the time? Is it like, does it feel like you're almost friends? And then you're bouncing ideas off of each other? Like, how do you think about it? And I don't know if you've heard of, like, holacracy or more? Oh, we can talk about that after okay. Ali Abdaal 1:01:29 Okay, how do you feel about hierarchy? I don't feel like a superior in any way. In fact, and I very much see us all, as you know, we're all friends slash we're on the same team kind of thing. But at the same time, there is that thing of I have I, I know, I need to communicate like an expectation of what like, what I want and what success looks like. And I often do a very bad job of doing that. Because I think, oh, we're just friends. We're just making it up as we go along. And it's only recently that I realised, like, if I set like a goal, like an arbitrary goal of like, you know, by the end of the year, we want 150,000 subscribers on the email list. Like that's actually quite useful for Jakub, who's on marketing guide is helping grow the email list, because now he's got something to shoot for. Exactly. Yeah. Whereas before, I was like, okay, he was a waste of time. Who cares about KPIs? I, I'm also surprised as to because in my head, I'm just making it all up as I go along. And so when I like float, an idea by the team, in my head is just an idea. And it's just a rough pencil sketch. But in their heads, it's like, oh, Ali said, We need to do something. So we need to do the thing. And then like a week later, it's like, the idea changes. And then people are like, oh, but you said this other thing last week, like now you're changing your mind every other day. Like what's going on? I'm like, wow, yeah, weird, because I didn't I didn't think I asked you to do anything. But they took my rough stuff with it. Yeah. Okay, cool. So I realised I've had to kind of, to me over communicate a lot, where and where it's like, Okay, guys, just to clarify, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. Don't do anything. Right now. I'm just floating an idea. generated with all that kind of stuff. There has been some of the challenges with the management stuff. But it's like really fun. And it's really fun, like working with people. And like, so cool. And this is over here at the moment I was hanging out. It's been really, really nice having people in wework. To the point where all of the people we're now hiring, we want to be based in London, to have like an actual London office. And your agency sixteenths has been like Danny and Fran and stuff have been really helping us on the operation side. But like, what it's like to grow the business and things like that. So that's been fun. Wow, cool. What about you? Have you thought about like, kind of expanding team fit in your brand? Jade Bowler 1:03:43 Not right now, just because I think while I'm in university, my priority is still having a social life and learning about myself and just making mistakes and just just living my life as a person beyond YouTube. Because I thought that's, that's so important to me during University. And I'm also like, I get to travel a lot and do all these things. And I think I don't have the freedom to do that when I'm investing so heavily in YouTube. So the next two years of my life is still in that experiment phase. And then I think after YouTube, and I'm like, Okay, cool. Like, maybe this is the career that I want to pursue that I'll turn it into something. But right now I like the flexibility in my life. Ali Abdaal 1:04:24 Are you not worried that and I said that this is my thought process with this that like, I have hit the jackpot, my right place, right time YouTube channel took off. I really don't want to screw this up the algorithm, anything could happen to my channel, anything could happen to algorithm. If I stop uploading videos at the cadence of two videos per week, something bad is gonna happen. I don't want to let something bad to happen. it seems like you have like shed the chains of the algorithm. I think at least that's what it looks like. On the outside, I have Yeah, how did you do it? Jade Bowler 1:05:03 Defining your priorities in life, okay? If your priorities are just numerical success, but your whole life, then brilliant. But for me, I know that my human fulfilment does not just come from YouTube. And yes, when I'm succeeding, it's brilliant, I feel great, you know, like, it's just this is like, I don't know how to describe it's like the thing in the background that like, I know, it's all going good, you know, with the algorithm. But in the times in my life, where I've only focus on YouTube, and I've been doing the best with the algorithm, and sometimes when I'm the least happy, because I'm not putting the same energy into relationships in my life into, I don't know, just learning about myself through other activities. And so I define that as a priority for myself is, while I'm at university, I want to have the space to not just be a YouTuber, and to be messy, and, you know, element of like being a bit chaotic at uni means I can't do you do YouTube to the same extent as if I was just focusing on it? Yeah, so reprioritization, okay, but it's a sacrifice. Ali Abdaal 1:06:10 So then, do you think at all about, like, two years from now, if you don't take youtube so seriously, that maybe the YouTube career won't be there? And you'll have to, like, get a real job? Is that something that concerns you? Jade Bowler 1:06:24 Um it used to, but no. No, because the algorithm, okay, yeah, if you don't post for a bit, it might come back and have to build things up again. But if you're able to do it once, why can't you do it again, you know, like, you've clearly learned how to do this, you have something of value to share. People want to listen to you people know who you are. And even if it took six months of you, you know, working hard to get back to anywhere close to where you were, you've done it before because so much easier than the first time around. And yet you will have gained so much in the time off is How are you? How are you? I'm not saying you have to quit YouTube. But I also do I feel this fear in your alley to like to, to stop you know, when when the algorithms so on your side, I'm so proud of you on YouTube. But I remember when we were having the chat last year about you thinking about travelling and increasing your surface area for serendipity, all that stuff, all that stuff. Yeah. And I can imagine it must feel even farther away when it's like, you know, you've got a team and you're learning all this stuff on this incredible business side. But yeah, I don't know. Is this still a part of you that thinks there's the things you want to do be on YouTube? But you're chained by YouTube? Ali Abdaal 1:07:42 Yeah, I think so. I think the way that I think of it is less about YouTube specifically, and more about like, the wider kind of being a thought leader slash you know, that sort of internet personality kind of thing, which sounds really cringe to say out loud. Jade Bowler 1:07:59 He's a thought-leader! Ali Abdaal 1:08:01 That's a dream anyway. And the thing that always worries me is that it's all as much as we've tried to diversify away from YouTube. It's still all very dependent on YouTube for sure. And I look at you know, there there are very few YouTubers who were big 10 years ago who are still big today. Tech YouTubers have done well in like staying relevant and, and things. And so I often think about this as like, what exactly am am I scared of, because, you know, the business is doing well with sufficiently profitable, etc. But I'm still like climbing climbing the greasy pole of like, subscribe account, and like views and like revenue and all this sort of stuff. And there's got to be a point at which it has to stop slash, like, take a step back. So that's one side of me with the other side is like, Yeah, but it's really fun. Yeah, we're getting an officer, we're hiring a team. And it's like, cool. And I actually if I think about what I would find more fun, I think being in London and going to work every day feels to me more fun than like travelling. For now. Yeah. And so I feel like in this season of my life, which is kind of like our hustle kind of season, while on the weekend, doing acro yoga and playing PlayStation and stuff on site to you know, self care. It feels like, why not do the hustle for as long as it's fun. And if it stops being fun, then I'll reassess. Jade Bowler 1:09:19 That's really valid, too. Yeah. Yeah. And like, as you say, you know, you've got this whole new chapter ahead of you in London with a team and an office like that. That is an adventure in itself. That's a huge change. I think you've you've engineered your routine here. So that's going to be a huge change. Ali Abdaal 1:09:38 Yeah, I feel like hopefully should be fun. So you're having a big change in a couple of weeks. Right? You're going to Berlin. Jade Bowler 1:09:43 Yes, although I've lived there before I studied that before, which is amazing because it's the first time of my degree that I'm going back to a city. So I feel like I already have you know, some of my favourite places there. Yeah, it's just very exciting. 2 months Ali Abdaal 1:10:04 this time around. How long is it for four months again? Okay, Jade Bowler 1:10:07 four and a half months? Yeah. Ali Abdaal 1:10:08 What's that like kind of being in a city for like four months, four months at a time? I've never really done that. Jade Bowler 1:10:13 Okay. It's, it's so many things, it's a lot of emotions, right? It's an incredible, you find, like, my concept of home has shifted a lot. Because you do find a home in this place. Like, I know, I leave a piece of my heart wherever I go. So I like all these cities around the world. Yeah, and I don't know I've kind of developed this routine of first month is going to be really tough. Everything is new, the language, the culture that people all have is just like, totally out of your comfort zone. second month, things get a little bit easier, developing routine. And then third month is just sweet spot. Like, every life is just amazing. You found like it's a honeymoon, you know, you've got your routines, you understand this place. And then fourth month is still good, but like I'm learning to leave and leave it behind. So it's like bittersweet. Yes. So it's, it's good. But then I also sometimes feel this lack of stability in moving a lot, okay? Because it's, you know, I get to experience these amazing places, but then I know, it's always gonna be for a short time. Ali Abdaal 1:11:15 Okay? Is that because of the university thing keeping you moving? Okay. Do you think you'd once you graduate, you'd want to continue the sort of travelling, living in a new place every four to six months sort of lifestyle? Or hasn't gone out of your system? So like, Yeah, Jade Bowler 1:11:31 Yeah, good question. I don't know if I'm honest. I think part of me wants stability. And like friends in one place. Yeah. But at the same time, it's so amazing, like, the whole slow travel thing where you live in a new place. You just lost how much about yourself really quickly, like every place you go is so different, like, forces a different version of yourself, I feel what do you mean, you learn about yourself? Okay. So for example, Berlin, and Seoul, I think two of the most different places you could be in, like Berlin is like, I don't know, so individualistic. As in like, your, your industry. People don't care what they wear. And I love it, you know, people could do like wearing a beanbag or wearing a suit, and everyone will look at you exactly the same. People play their music super loud, and, and that's just them living their life. And people will, you know, just like dance in the street to the music and everything is just very free. Whereas in Seoul, it you know, it's very respectful culture, you have to be a lot quieter, and so keep to yourself, and it's sort of God's collectivistic thing. And I never lived in in a place I like either of those two. So in Berlin, it sort of taught me I could, I could, you know, take up more space and experiment with my fashion. And yeah, like, that was a side of myself, I got to explore. Whereas when I went to Korea, you know, you're on the bus. And if you talk, people will look at you until you stop talking. Okay, so it's like, wow, I learned that, you know, I'm a lot louder than I always thought I was or that I enjoy conversations with strangers, which will never happen here. Because everyone will keep keep to themselves more, and because of the language differences. So yeah, so you come out of the places having learned about how you would adapt to these situations? And what aspects of your personality you'd like to express. Ali Abdaal 1:13:25 And do you think there's like a minimum effective dose in terms of like, length of time that you're in a place? Because I've been I've been to Japan for a week at a time? I don't think I learned anything about myself in that time. But, yeah, Jade Bowler 1:13:40 For sure, I think you have to, like, live there. Yeah. Like commit to living there. Not just like a holiday. But I don't know, if there's a minimum amount of time, I think three months, you could probably do it. But I think four months really has been like a sweet spot for living in a city. Kind of, as I said, those phases that you go through in the months, I think two months is really just the exposure thing and figuring everything out. And then that third month is when you're, you're feeling a bit better. Ali Abdaal 1:14:06 So a few minutes ago, we were talking about the YouTube channel, and you said that you're wondering whether YouTube is going to be your career two years from now, when you graduate? How do you think about this, this concept of like, career and this thing of like, because, because my, my view on this is that, like, What does career even mean? It's like, like, if you're if you're a doctor, that's a career if you're a lawyer as a career, because it's like, oh, there's one thing that you're doing kind of there's a clear progression. But I feel like for you, and for me, maybe like the word career doesn't feel quite right. How are you thinking about that kind of concept? Jade Bowler 1:14:43 So true. Yeah, careers definitely. Like an old old time phrase, I think where the assumption is, you know, you go to one company, and you stay there for your lifetime and work up the hierarchy. But no, I feel like people have multiple careers in their life. That is the new definition of a career. Yeah, I think just doing whatever feels right at that time, job wise is probably the best thing. You know, I have friends right now who are graduating and going into random jobs that that's not going to be there the long term career but no doubt they're going to go there. They're going to learn a lot. They're going to learn what they do. They don't like they're going to meet people who are gonna lead them on to other things. And I think that is what we should normalise as a career is just just doing things and you know, throwing what's the expression throwing something at a wall? Oh, yeah. Thanks for getting to a wall. Yeah. And just if you don't like the Korea, you change, and YouTube is a is I guess, a phase of our overall careers which will lead us on to other things. Ali Abdaal 1:15:43 Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, I find that so my mom is fairly old school in her like approach to stuff I think, like a lot of a lot of parents are. Her whole thing is that, like, you know, that for me that I should have a plan. And the fact that I changed my mind, every, you know, every every few months from what I want to do is like the signs that I'm scatterbrained, and you know, don't have any fear, like whatever, whatever. And it's like, when I have conversations with her, it's like, a part of me wonders, should I have more of plan, like a clearer idea of where I want to be five years from now? Should I do an odyssey plan and actually stick to it? But then the other half is like, Oh, well, you know, I'll just, I'll just do what's fun in the moment, and what seems to roughly make sense and things will work out. Jade Bowler 1:16:27 So relatable. Yeah, I think there are some things you need to plan for, like if you decide you want to be a doctor, that's something you've got to plan for. And, and from now to there is like a very clear trajectory. But yeah, I know, recently, I was making like a mood board for my life vision board, okay. And this is really hard, because I don't know what I want to do with my life. And I don't know where I want to live, like all of these things are very hazy, but I still wanted to try and create like a vision board of some kind. And not scrolling through Pinterest trying to be like, okay, like what resonates with me, I don't even know what to type in. And I think I was just trying to capture more of a feeling or a set of values that as kind of timeless in in what I want to how I want to shape my life. And the mood board is still in progress. But like right now I love the flexibility I have in the fact that my job can be remote, you know, that you can do it from anywhere, that's something I really value I've been able to do a university I love the flexibility to sort of make a video on whatever I want to and realising those things like what I like now is probably going to be quite similar in five years and what I want from a career so I find that useful. So what is a vision board? Oh, it's just like a collection of images, phrases words, like you can do magazine clippings, but like digitally dressed Yeah. Yeah, and the idea is that you put it up and when you look at it yeah, it gives you the feeling of the direction you want to go in it's like a kind of like a source of motivation but also like a hazy direction. Ali Abdaal 1:18:04 Because you've talked in a few videos about like manifestation and stuff like what what is so I've read it the secrets haven't read this and everyone everyone I've I've heard everyone I've heard speak about the secret does it in very large disparaging terms that like well this episode is all like BS. Be like talk about it sincerely. Yeah, it seems to be like what is manifestation to you? And yeah, how does it manifest in your life? Jade Bowler 1:18:32 Okay, so to me, it's kind of common sense, okay. In a way, if you want something, you're going to have to say it out loud, you're gonna have to take actions towards it. And you're also going to probably need a bit of luck because that's how life works. And that's kind of common sense. You know, like, if you want a certain job if you want to be a doctor, you first got to decide that's something you really want you've got to be very specific say okay, I probably in the next five years, I'm going to have to apply for med school I'm probably going to want to go to maybe this university then you can say it out loud, you can write it down it becomes kind of a clearer thought. And then you have to use Wait, let me say that again. Just through Yeah, like putting it down on paper you're already thinking about actions of how you're going to go towards that whether that's like working harder for certain grades. And then the element of luck. The I guess the law of attraction comes into you know, you can call it synchronicity you can call it luck. You can call it the universe and call it wherever you want to, but there's always an element of that. And so the law of attraction is that to me, it's you decide something and you get really clear on what it is you want. And then you can also assist that thing with visualisations like the more you can picture yourself having that thing, the more likely you are to have it just because you're going to shape your actions towards also getting it. Ali Abdaal 1:19:51 So what would the visualisation thing look like? Yeah. Jade Bowler 1:19:55 So I think this falls into the realm of meditation. Okay, for example, like closing your eyes. I think about this with an exam, like the night before an exam, if you close your eyes and you picture yourself in the example, most people, first thing to think of is stress, you know, like flicking through the paper, you've got no time, and you're kind of manifesting, that version of you being stressed without you doing anything about it. So in order for you to do the opposite, you'd have to visualise yourself, being there being calm, being rational, being focused, and like, you know, feeling quite confident, kind of fake it till you make it. And the more that you picture that imagine yourself in it, then the more likely you are to borrow from that visualisation and naturally do it. So yeah, it's kind of just imagining the best case scenario, but that makes you more likely to also do that scenario. Ali Abdaal 1:20:45 Okay. Jade Bowler 1:20:46 Does that make sense? Ali Abdaal 1:20:47 Yeah, it does. I feel like I sometimes accidentally do this without realising I'm doing this. There was this a guided meditation thing I did the other day. Which was this sort of about imagining your life? Some years in the future? What does your house look like what the family look like? What are you spending your time doing? And before doing it, I was like, This is gonna be some stupid meditation thing. Yeah. And then I, and then I did it. It was like, 20 minutes. And I was like, oh, wow, I've just never spent any time thinking in my life in the future. And I had, like, a very specific sort of vision of what like, my future house might look like. And you know, it's like, oh, you know, in this in this vision, like, you know, the wife is tucking the two kids into bed. There's like a third one on the way we've got little fireplace. I've got like, my little desk in the corner that has like an icon. It was like a guitar and playing the guitar. It's like a dog. And it's like, oh, this is kind of nice. And since doing that, like last week, I have been thinking back to that, and thinking, Oh, I wonder what sort of dog I want, like, and it's just, like, just random. I very rarely think what sort of dog do I want in the future? But the fact that I had I did that visualisation thing is now like a thing where I feel like, Oh, yeah, I'm thinking to get a dog in the future. That's so cool. And so I don't know, I feel like, I want to do more in the way of like this sort of vision boarding II type stuff. Jade Bowler 1:22:11 Thats awesome. Yeah, that's basically what the law of attraction is, or at least the way I think about it, it's just getting clear on your vision for your life, which we don't do enough. And I don't, I'm not clear on that. But as soon as you know, you start to have an idea. It does sort of work its way into your mind more, and then you're more likely to make it happen. Ali Abdaal 1:22:28 Would you be open to sharing some of the things in your vision board? Or is it like a private thing? Jade Bowler 1:22:33 It's kind of private. Because I don't know, like, if this is actually what I want, okay. Ali Abdaal 1:22:39 No, fair enough. Have you found that the manifesting stuff helping another aspect of life as well? Jade Bowler 1:22:45 Like in yeah, I think in terms of confidence, Ali Abdaal 1:22:48 okay. Was it like you imagine yourself as being more confident that you're more confident? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Right. Like to make it Jade Bowler 1:22:57 Yeah. Or, even for example, with the book, like when I was writing this book, when I had to go down and sit down and you know, was reading the writing process, visualising myself as someone who had written the book who had finished it and was receiving a nice review from someone about how it helped them but not in like a stressful way just like oh, you know, that was this was really helpful to them, things like that, you know, it just helps you then find that motivation to sit down and write. Ali Abdaal 1:23:25 Okay, that's very interesting. And do you do you do do this like activity? Do you have like a slot in your calendar for like, manifesting time? Or like, how does it work within your life? Jade Bowler 1:23:35 Because I have a solid routine of meditation. Some of these meditations I choose to do on that day could be in the realm of manifestation. Ali Abdaal 1:23:48 Oh, okay. Yeah, so I guess that that will spin that thing that I did the other day, which is just like someone talking like, close your eyes. Imagine yourself five years from now. Yeah, think about the sound think about the feelings that kind of stuff. Jade Bowler 1:24:00 Imagine if you did that meditation every day? Like every day you'd sort of add to that vision? Yeah, definitely like oh, I have a dog and like I'm starting to see like, like what I like a poodle the next day you do the meditation you're like, actually has a golden retriever. Yeah. Ali Abdaal 1:24:13 Okay, that's interesting. Cuz I guess in my head meditation is like you sit there doing nothing for me. Most people think that Jade Bowler 1:24:19 yes, there's so different types of visualisations meditations. They're all like breathing frameworks, just being present. And you know, hearing everything around you engaging with your senses. Ali Abdaal 1:24:31 I guess, again, when it comes to meditation, I think I overthink it and like, I need to find the perfect like path. Whereas it sounds like what you're doing is just like typing some random meditation on YouTube, depending on what you're feeling and just go for it. Exactly. Like obviously, good for you. Jade Bowler 1:24:45 Yeah, because I know that the practice of meditation generally is good. Doesn't really matter what it is like just closing my eyes and like forcing myself to breathe for like five to 10 minutes. I'm showing up like I'm doing the work, you know, it doesn't need to be like Perfect meditation every day. And if I like it, I can do it again Ali Abdaal 1:25:02 Sick. That is very cool. I'm gonna turn it to our Instagram audience now, with some potentially rapid firing type questions. So the questions are gonna be rapid, but the answer don't necessarily have to. I'd love for you to expand on stuff if you like, Oh, wonderful. We have we have categories as well, what is hashtag casual magic? Jade Bowler 1:25:23 Oh, okay, so casual magic is a concept that I've been practising for the last few years. The idea is that, not every day is going to be your wedding day or your anniversary birthday, or like, an objectively exciting day. But that means that like, I don't know that the rest of your life that like 99.9% of your life is just boring, or you don't frame it in a way that has that much meaning or gives you that much happiness. So the idea of casual magic is every day finding something really casual in your mundane life that you find magic in. So for example, the way that the light is coming into the room is really beautiful, or, I don't know, just like having a nice tea. And just like actively noting to yourself, like, this is a nice moment. Like it's really casual, but a little bit magic. And I after reading so many books on happiness, yeah, that's sort of one of the things I found is it's all about how you personally find meaning. So trying to find meaning every day. Ali Abdaal 1:26:25 That's great. Jade Bowler 1:26:26 What's your casual magic today? Ali Abdaal 1:26:28 My casual magic today? I really like these bulbs. We put these like these like little fairy light type things up yesterday, because we were having a goodbye leaving party for Shane. Oh, and I think he's just a great vibe. I'm gonna keep them. Yeah, I think like I had a few friends whose bedrooms had that sort of like lighting type stuff in them. I was just thinking, Oh, this is really cosy and nice. I just never thought that it was part of. Yeah, but now I think it'll be part of the aesthetic of it. What advice would you give earlier about writing a book? Oh, apart from all the stuff we've already said. Jade Bowler 1:27:16 Stop overthinking it. Firstly. flesh out those ideas before sharing them with other people. Like sit with yourself and write them. And thirdly, find your space your like scientists your space around a moment at a place or cafe. Something like that. That's just yours. Don't bring any of your writing people there. Ali Abdaal 1:27:39 Sancitity of space. That's a nice phrase. Is that one that you've invented? Yes. Nice. That's good. That's a good way of framing it. Artists says how did you name the chapters of your book? Jade Bowler 1:27:49 Oh, good question. Um, I don't know. I just I thought about it. They're quite basic aren't they - 'how we learn' Ali Abdaal 1:27:58 study methods. Yeah, it's time for timetables. Mental Health the night before an exam. Ready for battle. An era says, What's your favourite book? Jade Bowler 1:28:22 Oh, I think atomic habits has really shaped my life in a positive way. Or the four hour workweek was one of the first business e books I ever read. Oh, yeah, one concept that really stuck with me was the idea of the mini retirement in four hour workweek. Yeah, I say the four hour workweek. So it's the idea that you know, Germany, we wait till retirement to enjoy our lives or do all these things like go travelling. And Tim Ferriss, he has a mini retirement every year where, you know, you can take like a month and do exciting things. You can go travelling, rather than waiting your whole life to finish your work. You can like work your whole life and have the retirements in between. Ali Abdaal 1:29:08 Yeah, what we're trying to sort of do this concept within our team whereby every six or seven weeks we have we all take a sabbatical for a week, where like no work gets done. It's also published like one video which has been pre scheduled and stuff, and no one's allowed to do any work. They kind of really really want to but it's like, you know, encouraging people to take a break. Do you actually not do work during that time? So probably the we we've done it for one week, whereby it was basically 100% work from my diagnosis part. I feel like some of the rest of the team took actually took some time off. Okay. But one of my one of my friends has been doing the sabbatical thing for the last like seven years. He says it takes you a few rounds to actually get into the habit of not doing any work for a week. Yeah, but I'm hoping it'll happen at some point. A case study Matt says What did you like and dislike most about your book writing journey? Jade Bowler 1:29:55 Oh, like the most is when I read back a paragraph or something, I just had this feeling of this is good. Like that doesn't happen often. Like this is actually something of value, or when you're really overthinking how you want to say something, or, like, for example, mental health I talked about in the book. And I came up with this metaphor about how mental health is like the weather. And when I hit that, I was like, This makes so much sense to me. And I think this could really help people with mental health, like the weather. Oh, okay. So if you think in the UK, every day, you wake up, and the weather is different, you don't know how it's going to be sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, but either way sort of got to get on with your day. The weather doesn't define the day, it doesn't define how you are, even though it can change how it is. But you know, it's a universally recognised thing that we have, whether it's going to change, and mental health, and from that perspective is the same, like every day, your mind is going to be a bit different. You're gonna have days where, you know, you're feeling under the weather. Oh, yeah. And it doesn't define you. It's just, you know, your mind that day might be feeling a bit worse, and you just have to observe it. And, you know, if it's raining outside, you pack an umbrella. But often, if you're not feeling good one day, you don't do anything for it. You know, you don't like you don't do a meditation or take time for yourself, like you might do to protect yourself from the weather. Yeah. And then, one thing I kind of went on to talk about is, in the UK, we talk about the weather a lot. Yeah, but we never talked about mental health. So it's this paradox here, and why can't we turn mental health into something that's talked about and checked on just like the weather is? Ali Abdaal 1:31:40 How do you notice how you're feeling? Jade Bowler 1:31:43 So this is something I talked about in the book is developing a practice of some kind, which is you checking in so that could be journaling, which can be it can feel like a lot of friction at the start is an amazing habit to get into, you know, it's like brain dumping, how you feel just thoughts in your head. And as you write like stream of consciousness, and you read it back, you can often get a gist of how you're feeling, especially when you compare it or meditation. Even just close your eyes for one minute. And just stopping all the distractions. That's checking in for me. How are you feeling right now? Ali Abdaal 1:32:17 This is a good question. How am I feeling right now? Jade Bowler 1:32:23 Can I just say, this is something I've been realising this year. Yeah. Boys and Men. Oh my god. I feel like the dread the question, how are you feeling right now? No one can answer it. Why can't you answer it? Ali Abdaal 1:32:36 Okay. So the reason I can't answer is because so I've been thinking about this, this genre stuff along the last few weeks or months. I think I never take the time to think about how I'm feeling. And therefore when asked How are you feeling? Like literally the only word the word that comes to mind is good. Oh, yeah, that's so unsatisfying. But apparently the thing that you do is get into the habit of not using those words and like elaborating more on what it feels like. And I just don't do that. Feel feels unnatural and weird. And like, I'm sort of making stuff up. How are you feeling right now? Like, how would How would you describe your? Yeah. Jade Bowler 1:33:18 Okay, um, I think a little bit self conscious, if I'm honest, because I'm, like, aware that there's loads of cameras in there. Anything I can say is going to be used, like, probably, and I'm going to stumble and I'm not in control of the editing process. So like, Yeah, a little bit subconscious. But at the same time, relaxed, like it's a nice environment here. Ali Abdaal 1:33:40 Okay. That's reasonable. That's better than that. Good. Yeah. Decent. All right. Yeah, I've, I've been I've been reading stuff about this, this, this sort of thing. People say that you should kind of ask yourself, what, what your body is feeling right now. And then the more you do that, the more you'll get used to being like, oh, that feeling when my stomach like weird, I would label or something like that. I haven't go. So I actually had I had this a few days ago. So I was I was out to dinner with someone. And then on the way back to the car, I realised that my bags have been stolen from the car. And I was tracking them and like find my because I had an apple. And I was like, why, why? Why am I wanting to be there? over the cars over there. And I had this kind of weird feeling in the pit of my stomach. And I realised that oh, this is like a feeling of anxiety of like, is my car still there? I have stolen the car because I've got the water in the water. It has kind of car keys in it and so on and so on. And then I was like, Damn, I almost never feel this feeling. And then I was like, Damn, I've got friends who actually have anxiety and they feel this all the time. Oh my God, that's awful. So that was like the thought process for this because that was a very special specific kind of bodily feeling that I could identify as being anxiety. Like right now, the feeling that I have is, I am happy slash glad slash, like enjoying this conversation, I think it's been really nice. There's a part of me that's self conscious, because I know that every time I'm on camera, I sweat. And so I'm trying not to let the pit stains show on the camera and all that kind of stuff. I'm also feeling a bit like, I don't know how I describe it, but like, given that I am, quote the interviewer in this sort of trying to stay one step ahead of where the conversation is going and thinking, Okay, where are we getting to next? While at the same time thinking that you're doing a great job of like, maintaining eye, maintaining eye contact, and being like, very engaging? And so if I'm half in my mind about where's the conversation going next, maybe my, I'm coming across as less interested than I actually am because I'm having a great time internally. Jade Bowler 1:35:53 I thougt you were completely bored. Ali Abdaal 1:35:56 Then at the same time, like because the cameras on and I have like a resting board face, I've been told, it's like, you know, it, like, I did an interview the other day, and I was watching back myself, and I was like, why do I look like I'm having the worst time cuz I was having a great time. And so it's like, let me like, make my face sort of into a more like interesting face, which is not my default kind of, look, I Jade Bowler 1:36:14 I actually noticed you doing that doing this. Ali Abdaal 1:36:16 Oh, really? Jade Bowler 1:36:16 Yeah I was actively thinking about this. I don't want to look with my bored face like this. I've realised in this conversation. Yeah. I thought you notice Yeah, that you look bored. Yeah. And then you like, actively try and be like, yeah, like how he taffy. I'm like, oh, like is key. I thought you're like actively trying to Ali Abdaal 1:36:35 actively try to do it's nice. It's like even when I'm looking bored. I'm actively listening. I'm just like, yeah, that's how I'm feeling right now. That's a good answer that reasonable, Jade Bowler 1:36:47 that'd be good. Yeah. Okay, good. Question for that one. I do remember, Ali Abdaal 1:36:53 What did you dislike about the book writing journey, I don't know how we got onto that!Right. Okay. Ryan says, Don't you think that each student should have his own study guide according to his skills and potential? And not just one standard guide for everyone? Jade Bowler 1:37:12 Yeah, so I was actually having conversation this morning about how you know, the whole, when teach when, when students often ask teachers, oh, how should I revise? The teacher says, Whatever works for you? And, to an extent, yeah, but also what works for humans is also going to be good for you. So that's, you know, that's what I would say to revision methods is that, you know, there is science behind this stuff, there's the techniques which will work for you. And just because you haven't tried them yet, doesn't mean they won't. So while you might enjoy certain techniques more, at the end of the day, you know, try these ones, they work. And I think the bit which is obviously just me, sharing my experience is the staff or mental health staff in perfectionism, and I'm very open that that doesn't represent everyone and their experiences. Yeah, so if you want to write your own study guide, I'm so happy go. Ali Abdaal 1:38:06 It's kind of the same as like working out in that, yes, everyone's metabolism is different genes, but like, you know, if you follow the principles of like, you know, eat at a calorie surplus, eat protein, press of overload, you will just get more hench. And then all the rest is kind of detailed. Yeah. Whereas with studying, you follow the principles of like, spaced repetition, active recall, taking care of your mental health, etc, etc. You're gonna do okay, you're gonna do all right, yeah, it'll, it'll be good. Azhar says, Does your book talk about imposter syndrome? Is it backed up by science experience, or anything like that Jade Bowler 1:38:42 I don't actually talk about imposter syndrome. I think I very lightly touched on it. The last chapter is kind of a more general chapter because it's about the future. So I thought, you know, my whole book is about studying, but so much of what you're studying is what you're studying for. And that is often the future. And I talked about Odyssey plans and things which helped me because part of my motivation was thinking about that future. And if you don't have a direction of where you're going, it's important to have that. Yeah, so imposter syndrome is something I touched on in that chapter, but was mainly backed up by my experience. What is the Odyssey plan for the for the uninitiated? Oh, the Odyssey plan. Oh, yeah. This is so cute as well. I still remember. This is one of the first videos of mine that you commented on it. Oh, yeah. And I made a video about Odyssey plans and Annie Purcell. Oh, this is really great. Oh, thank you. That's just really nice. Yes, so it's a really useful framework. I think it was designed by Yale, or Stanford. Stanford. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, system University use this to help students. Yeah, work out what they want to do with their lives. And the idea is that you create different versions of how your life could go. So if you were to go exactly on this current path, you're on studying what you're studying. How would your life look? In five years, so if you're studying medicine probably going to be a doctor or junior doctor. Yeah, and then you do a second Odyssey plan which is what if you picked an alternative path? What if you decided to study something you're considering but not doing right now? How could your life look? And then lastly, you imagine if societal expectations didn't matter and money didn't matter, how would your life look in five years? What would you be doing? And then when you sit back you can take some elements from this life that you would have if nothing else mattered and sort of put that into the life that you're actually going to have? Ali Abdaal 1:40:35 Yeah, so I first saw your video on this I think end of 2019 ish. Yeah. And it like genuinely shaped sort of the things that I was doing with my life from that point onwards because I've just never thought of thought of it in that way before What does like how often do you do this? I put what is your like five year what does he plan kind of look like? Jade Bowler 1:40:57 I don't do it overly consistently. I think part of it comes into whole manifestation thing that we were talking about is being aware of things you'd like to attract into your life. But right now, I know that during university I have changed so much already, like from first year to now how have you YouTube? How as a person, how have you the world after travelling, it's just constantly changing. So it's such that I don't have a very consistent five year plan and that's fine with me. So I think this is something I'm going to revisit in like final year when I you know, closer to that stage, but right now I'm just enjoying my life. Let me enjoy my life Ali. Ali Abdaal 1:41:36 It's all good. We've got Matt, who says how do we get a copy of the book? Oh, okay. So you can get it onany UK book retailers, so WHSmith, Waterstones or Amazon. Oh, is it UK only? Jade Bowler 1:41:52 Currently yes. Ali Abdaal 1:41:54 Why did you avoid International? Jade Bowler 1:41:56 It's something that I'd like to do. But the publisher, I'm where there's like a medium sized publisher. So it's kind of like testing it out in the UK. Ali Abdaal 1:42:03 Yeah, it's done pretty well in the UK. So I'm really well Yeah, probably gonna get America International. The whole shebang. Yeah. Jade Bowler 1:42:09 That's cool. Which is really cool. Wow. Ali Abdaal 1:42:13 So you can be an international bestseller? Jade Bowler 1:42:15 I mean, let's manifest it. Ali Abdaal 1:42:19 Okay. LSB says, What's your most useful advice for someone going to uni this September, other than to get the book? Oh, yeah, definitely get the book okay, I would say that uni is a good time to be messy to like, work out so many things about your life, rather than going in and like overly planning every minute of your life at uni, I would say try things I'd say you know, like, make friends, learn about relationships, learn about how you learn, learn about the subjects you like, join clubs, just do your best to go out of your comfort zones, I think that's the best thing that you need is for it's like, these few years of buying you time from the rest of the world. So yes, study hard. But also, I want to try stuff out. I don't know, I probably give the same advice for people who've just graduated uni as well. Like, I think we think of uni as being the time where you should be messy. But actually, all of your 20s are reasonable, it's reasonable to even say into your early 30s, you don't really need to have stuff figured out. You need to start figuring stuff out once you have like a family and kids to support Yeah, and until that, like, okay, to kind of do stuff. I need to take advice better myself. What helps motivate you to study the most during a levels? Jade Bowler 1:43:31 Oh, so many things, one thing. I think, firstly, I really loved learning. And I really value learning. So that was like kind of an intrinsic motivation to get me to want to do well is because I wanted to learn. But secondly, I wanted to get into a good university. So that was like a really, really good motivator. Of course, boring. But Ali Abdaal 1:44:00 We've got a few questions about productivity then a few questions about life to close things off. So prepara 25 says How has your relationship with productivity changed over the last few years? Jade Bowler 1:44:10 So much. I used to overly care. Well, we're defining productivity and the like toxic cost of economic output? economic output productivity Yeah. I was that typical care too much about grades all a star person at school, my life was just studying. And yeah, I felt very guilty for taking time off. And I think that was also hopeful about the algorithm back then. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know, like I take time off from the algorithm it, it's not gonna be good. And I think I just have a much healthier relationship to grades learning. Yeah, like, I redefined productivity and what we were saying earlier, and I don't know just find more enjoyment in life. Ali Abdaal 1:44:56 Natasha says How do you stay focused on your goals? Jade Bowler 1:45:00 Boom, breaking them down into many smaller sub goals. It's really hard to stay committed to one thing unless you make it tangible. Ali Abdaal 1:45:07 Definitely. And anx oh five says what would you say keeps you motivated to wake up early every day? What time do you wake up? Jade Bowler 1:45:15 It depends. I have at least one day a week where wake up at 5am bloody hell, because it's just I don't know it's like my reset day I turned in summer it changes because I have the flexibility. But yeah, what we do is we wake up early, I feel better. I just feel good when I wake up early. It's like I have a longer day. I'm more productive. I'm less likely to do the thing where I just stay in bed and watch YouTube and go down a rabbit hole and feel bad. Ali Abdaal 1:45:43 How do you balance the sort of need for eight hours of sleep with a desire to wake up early? Jade Bowler 1:45:48 I never have less than an hour sleep or less than seven hours sleep? really sleep matters to me. Ali Abdaal 1:45:54 Some days you wake up at 5am you sleeping Oh, okay. Yeah, so it's not a decision you make in the morning as a decision maker at night to definitely decision Oh, okay sure. cuz I've always tried doing it as a decision making. Jade Bowler 1:46:05 No come on. No, oh my god morning start at night for sure. You know, saying like, if I want to do yoga video tomorrow, putting it on my YouTube screen that night, and then going to bed knowing that I just rolled out of bed but I've got no motivation. It's just there. You just cook it on. Ali Abdaal 1:46:22 Morning starts tonight. It's good advice. And a few questions about life. So Oliver says How have your aspirations changed since after your A Levels? Jade Bowler 1:46:32 I think I was always five year plan person have everything defined go from point to point to point. And now I'm a lot more in the present. My aspirations are to just enjoy myself and a lot about myself yet through, you know, friendships relationships. Like I don't know, say there's like a drama show like a theatre performance or something that my friend wants me to go to? You know, in the past, I might have said no, because I was gonna do some something related to my goals that evening. Oh, but being more flexible now in saying let's you know, Jane, this is valuable, too. Ali Abdaal 1:47:11 That's interesting. I'm thinking back because I feel like when I was at school in university, for me, the work stuff was always the lowest thing on the priority list. And so if there was ever like a so like, I made it a point when I when I go to university that I was never gonna say no to a social event for the sake of work. Yeah. And then that actually will like work surprisingly well. The thing that that ended up cutting out of my life was watching TV by myself. When work became my default activity, rather than watching TV by myself, suddenly, I had time to do all the things I wanted to. And also like, keep up with work, but just not watch TV by myself. Yeah. Jade Bowler 1:47:53 And how much did you miss it by watching TV by yourself? Ali Abdaal 1:47:56 Yeah, occasionally people were like, Oh my god, you've never seen the office. And I'm like. Okay, Zahid says, oh, how do you get over public criticism? What sort of public criticism do you get? Jade Bowler 1:48:15 So I had a lot of new days criticising me for studying abroad during the pandemic. Oh, really? Yeah. A lot of people say why are you going to Korea? You know, and I think it's hard when I see criticism having a valid point. That's when I really struggle with it. Because I'm like, wow, like, you know, so questioning what? Yeah. And so that was quite hard, because it's part of my degree, you know, all my friends are going to, it's something that I sort of predefined and that the pandemic was doing well, and do well, like it wasn't as bad in Korea. And that was honestly a really hard time for me when I got that criticism because I was in quarantine in South Korea alone, like in this room, just with the world's criticism about me and going to Korea. Yeah. And it made me really, like doubt my doubt my decision to go. But then now I look back. Yeah. Like, would I have preferred to stay at home in lockdown, doing doing uni with the time difference of like, 10 hours, when I could have gone as part of my degree, like, I think a lot of people in the same situation would have gone to Yeah, and if you're quarantining, like on this current day, like it is. Yeah, I think Yeah, I thought I think it's just like being like, coming back to why you make choices. Yeah. And as long as it's valid to you and your life and like, the criticism is fine. Yeah. Well, so would you say your main criticism is the toxic productivity stuff, or do you also get criticism one of the things,? The toxic productivity stuff and recently because I've appeared in a bunch of Shane's video videos, I did a couple of videos with Elizabeth There was a lot of criticism that Oh wow, Ali's a real arrogant, narcissistic prick in these videos and like he doesn't even he doesn't even look at them when he's speaking to them. He looked at the camera instead What a dick. And stuff like Oh, it was the way he was coming across was so condescending, you can clearly tell that he doesn't have he doesn't have a respect for them. And a lot of like, little things which people in the comments were yeah, it really did feel like people have come up with like, psychoanalysing the hell out of this like minor thing. And to the point I was like, I think maybe they have got a point. Like, I don't I don't feel any of these feelings that they're describing that are feeling but maybe some conscious maybe it's like, maybe I'm just coming across as like yourself. Yeah and these comments are so well written. And there's multiple of them. Yeah. And that's the thing, because how you come across it's so subjective. Yes, people, it's like, you know, you could just judge them, like this little video, you're watching right now everything about us as people. And then when you're reading it, you're like, extrapolated. Ali Abdaal 1:50:57 m This is why this thing of like, how do I look when I'm, I'm listening to someone, rather than when I'm speaking is like, really, in my mind of like, I need to not look as if I'm bored, because then people are going to be like, oh, he was clearly bored during this. When I was doing those, like remote deep dives, like the one we did, because I'd have the webcam above me. And I'd be looking at the comments. My eyes would always be pointing downwards. And the comments would be like, Ali stop looking bored, pay attention, and be like, Oh, no idea what it's like running, running live stream. All this kind of stuff. But to someone's when someone's watching that it genuinely does look like I'm bored. And so it's all this sort of stuff. That kind of got to me, because it did have a point. Yeah. And especially like the way we come across this is actually someone's objective perspective. Jade Bowler 1:51:46 Yeah. But yeah, it's also when it touches on an insecurity, you know, and they don't know the necessarily security for you. But those comments stay in your head, and especially when they like sort of shape your behaviour or how you do things in future videos. Like, yeah. Be kind. Ali Abdaal 1:52:06 Yeah, what can you do. Alright, we've got three more. Karen says, What does a perfect day look like to you? Jade Bowler 1:52:14 Oh, my gosh, okay, I do my morning routine, because I love my routine that sets up a perfect day for me. So I would do my yoga meditation. Preferably outside in nature with some beautiful weather, I'd have my porridge because I just genuinely really like that workers. And then I think I would spend half the day alone and half the day with friends half the day like walking, or I noticed in nature in my on my own, I feel amazing. And then on the beach, with friends, and then you know, like when you're looking at the stars, having deep chats, Oh, I love that. That's a perfect day, fireside chats all about you. Ali Abdaal 1:52:57 Mine would be get up, do some kind of writing journaling type thing in the morning, then do some sort of like sports things, maybe tennis with friends or like a squash lesson, or I was actually thinking about this. When I was I was like, genuinely trying to plan out my life in London, like what does my perfect day look like? Then thinking okay, so after the tennis lesson, it's nine o'clock, go to the office slash co working space to hang out with team have a few like content, brainstorm sessions and stuff. And then in the afternoon, probably do one of these sorts of podcast interviews because I really like doing these because you can like really go deep, which normally, I don't know, there's something weird about having microphones in front of you that like, encourages people to elaborate more on their thoughts than they would feel comfortable doing in real life. So I really like that, then I would do some sort of other activity, probably five 6pm. And then do dinner with friends. Followed by maybe board games with friends. And then like have like an hour of reading in bed before lovely, blobby, pretty sick routine. Jade Bowler 1:53:57 Like how lucky you know that you can shape your life around what a perfect day looks like. Ali Abdaal 1:54:01 It's an awesome like 100% v v privileged. Okay. Rogue mini says How can one accept failure and move on in life? Jade Bowler 1:54:10 I think time firstly is just amazing for accepting anything. Yeah, I bring back my classic Oxford rejection. Yeah. Which, yeah, if you guys don't know, I was rejected from Oxford University. And that was really tough for me at that time. But now I look back. I'm so happy with my life. You know? I think again, reframing what failure is failure is just productive. It's, you know, like, future success. And it's just not you can learn from and yeah, I think seeing it, like almost like zooming out. I imagine yourself and then physically zooming out everything, your whole life, the entirety of the world, and then seeing this tiny thing that you've done, it's just really insignificant. Ali Abdaal 1:54:52 Very nice. And the final one we've got from Instagram is from Rohit who says, describe life in three words. Jade Bowler 1:54:59 Oh my God, I hate life in for you. Oh my god Hmm. fluctuating Ali Abdaal 1:55:12 okay that's good well Jade Bowler 1:55:14 you have to contribute one now. Ali Abdaal 1:55:15 Okay, fun Jade Bowler 1:55:19 Oh no can I change it to full of potential? Yeah Oh okay, three words pull up potential full of potential nice potential bigger potential for bad potential for amazing, incredible things just full of potential is what life is fantastic Ali Abdaal 1:55:35 Great stuff seems like a good place to leave things coming on the podcast Jade Bowler 1:55:39 thank you so much for having me Ali Abdaal 1:55:40 we don't quite have a name yet I think we're thinking of calling it deep dive, which was the name that the old version was very similar. But this has been great guys everyone got the book link in the video description if you want to check it out. And do you have like a an email list or something for people international? Jade Bowler 1:55:59 Actually, I don't know. Ali Abdaal 1:56:02 Just put a Google form or something you can put your email address and if you want to find out more about this or something. Jade Bowler 1:56:06 Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. Ali Abdaal 1:56:08 But yeah, thanks for coming on. And thanks for listening everyone, and we'll see you later. That's it for this week's episode of deep dive thank you so much for listening. Do check out Jade stuff. There'll be a link to her YouTube channel and a link to her book in the video description or rather, in the show notes. I really need to get better at this podcast thing. If you liked this episode, please do leave a review on Apple podcasts. And don't forget to subscribe to the deep dive YouTube channel where you can watch the in person interview and our deep dive clips channel where you can see clips of the podcast if you're more interested in bite sized chunks of audio. So as always, thank you so much for listening. Have a great day and always remember journey before destination goodbye