Ep 261: Cheating, Narcissism & Affair Recovery (Ft. Mac Stanley Cazeau)

I said, old beach, I can't afford you. Thank you, loud speaker, Thank you, Chris Marrow. And they keep paying for her ready. Uh and now I paid just about that for my therapy every week. Um. But um, ladies and gentlemen, guys and girls and everyone in between. Um, now what kind of how much they're paying you? You You at Lubaton's therapist. For everyone, it looked like a rich not at all, not at oh. I would say that

I specifically work with black couples. Percent of my client sells are all black couples right here in New York City. Your favorite celebrities are my clients. Too, well, don't be in here. I have a girlfriend number one, Jason. I'm so mad, and I was trying to just give him some time alone before I slip in them d M and clearly I gave I let way too much time pass. Um, Ladies and gentlemen, we have a couple's therapists here in

the building. Shout out to Mac Sanley Kazoo. If you hate him, blame it in because though okay, you know, listen, I was, I was there, I had one of the two. Um. And one of the things that I really enjoyed about reading your specialty in therapy is that you focus on a fair recovery. Yes, Um, that's my go to nowadays. And I we thought we were doing the good deeds of the world by just letting everyone know not monogamy is the way to go. So what is a fair recovery?

So a fair recovery for those couples that at some point they've experienced some type of and fidelity and they are already to process it and decide where or not they want to stay together or separate. Listen, I was gonna say, I have you know, I've been cheated on and I've watched movies before or TV shows, or I feel like you know where someone like it happened in the movie and you're looking at the end again you're uncomfortable.

I think we should definitely give a trigger warning for this episode, as we may bring up some things that might make you and your partner uncomfortable. So if you're watching it with that nigga who cheated off or don't

turn it off. I think that what the conversations that I specifically wanted to have were solution based conversation, not really might punch the ball, not really putting blame on either or partner, because you have the cheater and then you have the person that was cheated on, and if you decide to remain in the relationship and work through it, there are things that both partners do that don't help the relationship, and it's not always all put the blame

on the person. There you go, there you go. So let's let's unpack that, because you have situations where anyone who gets lied to and cheated on, in my opinion, is a victim in that in that standpoint, right, like you could have been honest, of course, but what are some of the ways where because you both said, and I agree, Um that someone could be, you know, push you to cheat quote unquote Yeah. So the research has shown that seventy percent of the time the reason why

someone cheats is not because they desire sex. It's because there is an unmet need in the relationship that has not been met. So it could be just support, feeling appreciated, having someone to talk to, feeling desired, or feel feeling hard. So a lot of times we think of infidelity as no, you're just seeking sex and you're trying to be lusty.

A lot of times it's due to these emotional needs that you cannot have fulfilled within your primary But my problem with even that explanation, though, however, is that it's still kind of puts the blame on the partner not being able to fulfill something. And in a recent conversation I had regarding cheating, was that you, as the person who got cheated on, there's nothing that you did wrong.

It's all on the other person. So a lot of times when you get cheated on, you like to look at yourself and be like, damn, what could I have done different to not be cheated on? Like a lot of people put themselves as to blame as to why they got cheated on, and again in a recent conversation, there's a lot of times there's absolutely nothing you could

have done. Differently, a person is gonna cheat. They're gonna cheat, and a lot of times it has nothing to do with how their partners showed up at all, Like this person was gonna cheat if they did, just say like, think it could be the other person who calls to be to blame. What do you mean, No, I'm saying that the person. No, no, no no, no, I'm saying that that's if they stay in a relationship, and we'll get into that. But to me, it's not the blame of

the partner that got cheated on. So even the way you just explained it, there was something that wasn't met. I think that that's unfortunately a lot of times what happens when you're cheated on, You say, damn, how did I fail? What did I not do? Differently? Did I not suck his dick? Right? Did I not talk to him enough? And it still causes the person who got cheated on the place blame on themselves when that's not the case that nigga was gonna cheat because you wanted

to cheat. True, So cheating is a choice no matter what. Right you have the choice to decide whether or not you're going to cheat. But eventually, right, if you're in a relationship where you are asking for your needs to be met consistently and it's being ignored, it's human nature that at some point you're gonna start creating more outside friendship that can later on developed two more things. Right, help pulls divorce over the conversations that they never had

but they should have had. Finances, sex, intimacy, friendship, hold slew of things. Only eighteen percent of divorces are due to and fidelity, so it's not as major as we really. It's true. I feel like everybody I know to break up, maybe not divorce, but break up. It's always cheating, you think. So the people that I think to the majority are

times that in my life personally I've been angry. Maybe it wasn't cheating, but it was cheating adjacent like a lie um or in which I consider like if it was a lie about a person, I think it blankets under cheating in my opinion. But you're saying that cheating is only eighteen percent of the time. Is that because people get a ride divorce for cheating divorce. Yeah, so a lot of times, UM, cheating is not really a

deal breaker. We say it because it's the cool thing to say, but in reality, a lot of couples are willing to work through it because you can then build a stronger relationship due to the cheating that took place. The cheating indicates something was not working on both sides right well, whether I was not communicating what I needed properly or you are not receiving what I was asking

and therefore you couldn't meet that. So while we go through the therapeutic process and we identify what's missing and what's not being met, then we then create this discourse where my partner is able to see me, hear me, and meet that need. So therefore we create an even stronger relationship. I was gonna say, Um, mac therapy has been more of a common conversation now with the normalization of just discussing mental health as an all around thing.

I wanted to start off an icebreaker, UM regarding myths associated with therapy. UM, I want to ask you these two because and if you have any personal experience with JUMP. In the first myth, UM that I wanted your opinion on is that a couple's therapists will often take sides. That's a myth and here's why talk to me. The relationship is my client, not not you guys, right, So I am here to help the relationship and at times we are going to address the individual factors that each

of you guys show up with that may affect relationship. Um. Yes, she was dating a narcissist and it was very clear just one break up. Or have you ever seen other like situations where you like you shouldn't be together? Um? I don't think there is a time where you shouldn't be together. It's all depends on your willingness and commitment to make it work. What do you think about a break?

A break? I think they're bull We need rules for the break because a lot of times people will use a break just to go out there and do what they gotta do and then come back act like nothing happens. But you need some rules. It's it's crazy though, because when I I picked this myth specifically because before me

and my partner broke up, we were considering therapy. Um. But it was also one of those where it was it was difficult for me to find a therapist, and I wish I knew you at the time, because I felt if I chose a woman therapist, specifically a black woman therapist, that things that would said would fall on deaf ears because I knew he was also a sexist. So I just knew that he would probably feel like the bond of feminism is why we were trying to

hold him accountable for his actions. And so I was literally looking for a black mail therapist just so that in therapy he wouldn't feel like he was being attacked. And do you see that that happens oftentimes as well with black couples and specifically black men actually agreeing to go into therapy that you're kind of disarming for them.

You do see that, okay, because there's there's a lot of guy talk that happening, and at times I have to say to them directly, I get what you're saying, what your partner does not because you're using guy talk. I get it, right, But now, how can we communicate that in a way that your partner can understand what

you're actually saying? How often do you um? I can only talk from this experience, So I did a couple of therapy with X. He was a really bad serial cheater, but he also was emotionally and physically abusive, and at the time I was super young, so I didn't, you know, get what to do? Should we work it out? But I got a blackmail therapist because he didn't want a woman.

And he attributed it to age later, but he must have seen the man do something to me, whether it was a motion that made it look like he could tell I've been hit before he was like, can you leave the room to him? And when he he said no, And when he left the room, he's like, how do you add an answer? And he's like, well, we already know you're too young, right, you had a long life ahead of you, and I want you to know that whatever I tell him will never be out of your

favor and you can always feel safe. Have you ever been put in situation where you felt like you had to take a side for the safety of that person's heart, not even them physically, just like this motherfucker are gonna stop teating you or they don't want to be here, They're not active in this therapy. Here where it comes into play. Right, So the first phase of addressing and

the fidelity requires honesty. So that's where the person that is cheated on get to ask all of their questions that they need answers to who was it, for, how long? Where right? And in order to heal from that, the partner must be willing to be honest. So if they're being dishonest, then you will never never heal from it. And also in couples therapy, whatever is said to me, I will also share it with your partner. There's no privacy,

there's no secrecy. So in our individual session, the men had made it to still continuing the affair even though they're in a couple of therapies. So you're saying there's no privacy, so you'd be telling no meaning. So so the first session is I see you guys as a couple. The second session is I see each of you guys individually individually to continue my assessment, especially if domestic violence or president depressional anxiety right during that time period, I

will actually, are you still cheating? Are you still carry on the affair. If the answer is yes, and you're unwilling to say that to your partner, I must stop therapy. That's not going to work. Oh that's right, so you stop it. But do you like, how does that conversation happen? You're like, Hey, this isn't for me. Do you do you basically, quote unquote not force them, but try to

persuade and push them to being open. Yes, I let it be known that in order for us to actually make this work, you have to be a hundred percent honest, completely honest, and vulnerable and vulnerable. You have to commit to doing the work. Damn, I don't know if I could do all Right, UM, I'm gonna keep going because I want to get into quite quite a few things here on my on the docket. UM. So the next

segment we're gonna get into is our Vanilla Ship. If you're listening for the first time because you saw Mac say yo check my interview out of a podcast. Mac. You know twenty times you've been a guest our Vanilla Ship. For this week, UM has to do with law. But I wanted to bring up kind of the therapy UM as it pertains to parenting and children. Uh. This one, UM comes from the state of Texas, which is at

this point embarrassing. We've talked about Texas a lot as it pertains to them trying to reverse versus Wade UM in terms of abortion, this one is a little bit more disturbing. Greg Abbott has officially directed Family and Protective Services to begin investigating all trans children in Texas and prosecuting their parents as child abusers. He also instructed all teachers, doctors, and caregivers to begin reporting any trans students they see. UM.

I kind of wanted to know um. Of course. I also saw this retweeted by Gabrielle Union, who we know was with Dwyane Wade and Zio Wade. She has been in full support of Zia's transition. However, she sees fit in her life even though she is under the age of eighteen. I wanted to know, uh, psychologically, where a parent can be in terms if they're in Texas and they realize that their children don't feel comfortable in their bodies,

but now law is getting involved. How do you show up for your child in this and and kind of walk them through still being comfortable in their own skin while also facing this godforsaken place of time. That's a very loaded and yes, very loaded, very loaded. I would say UM to me because I am a parent as well too. Highly do not recommend at all. But I love my kids. How do you have the conversation then

with identity and sexuality with them? Um? It's again it's having an open door policy and being as as possible and trying to understand, right because a lot of time the older generation is not going to to understand and what's going on with us now? Right, So if I were to go to my mom and I was saying that, um, um, I'm Polly now, or I want to identify as as

a different gender, she would never understand that. But the key is not under is not to agree, right because a lot of times we try to get others to agree with what we're doing. If is there right or wrong? The key is to understand. I can understand why you feel this way. I can understand how being in this body may not feel humane or authentic to who you really are. Right. So it's having that compassion and that understanding,

and that alone should take care of everything else. Well, I can tell you what, therapist, now, it's about understanding. It's not finding it right or wrong. It's about understanding where they're coming from. There. Now you got me wanting to think now, like oh maybe daddy, people with kids I just have so many questions when I think about a couple of therapy because like you know, um, it didn't come on Showtime or Amazon Prime or something. There's a new therapy show and I went crazy, Like it's

just so interesting to dell into likes I'm excited. Yes, it's so crazy to watch other people and like we judge other people's relationships so much. That could never be me. Dad, I've been that girl, do you know, Like I'm never gonna let it n do this not be right there? All my credit? No, I'm just playing, but like, where what's the tea of the te Like, what is the craziest ship you feel like you've seen happen in therapy to where you're like, oh my god, like you felt

like you were on Jerry's brainer. Oh oh um, I had a polycuple which I've started working with Polly Couples. I wanted to ask you what was better a success rates We're go ahead at the start of the pandemic because you know a lot of people were stuck in my house like I don't like you, I don't know you, Like this relationship is not working because we no longer have that eight hour break of going to work and then coming back home. So an average, couples that have

children only spend ten percent of their time together. Oh yeah, we spend more time with our coworkers than a lot of babies. Are so smart because not only but I think the outside of polycouples, a lot of people realize how much they really don't like each other because they didn't have a break from each other. Correct, So what happened with this polycuple? So it was So there's been a trend lately that I've been seeing from people requesting

consultation before signing on for therapy. So they were in a monogamous relationship, right four years in the man comes and now wants a polyamorous relationship, and she is freaking out, like I never agreed to this, this was never you not? Why that change they do? However, he wants to be the only one that is allowed to right. He wants to be there, which is which is when the man can have all the multiple partners, but each woman it

only serves him. I got introduced it. I got asked me part of that where you like trying to be on her team a little like hey, like Polly, like you both should be open or how did it work out? So my job is to help facilitate the conversation. So as a couple of therapists were not a referee, My job is to help you and educate you with the skill sets needed so you can function effectively in your relationship.

So I will look at your communication skills because most couples cannot communicate, your conflict man management, UM, the level of passion and romans and also the level of friendship. So a lot of times, well, I actually guys this question, right, what percentage of differences must be solved in a relationship in order for it to be happy and healthy? Isn't it?

So you're saying you need to solve I would both by differences, I mean based on the logic that like, no person is ever going to come in and be perfect, Like oftentimes even in a relationship, of the relationship will be exactly what you want will not There's going to be a compromise. Um. I do believe that no person is going to agree fully with you. But I think the idea of how you guys agree in terms of what you want out of a relationship for its work,

should be more than it's a great hypothesis. I mean, you know, come on, sign there's a right answer of the man. Now, I don't believe there is not when it's percentages this ship because I need to know who were the test people for this. I need to know in what location, what demographic, what a drink? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I think for me, I'm really not sure if I could answer like percentages. But the one thing I've learned that successful in success relationships.

And I also consider successful relationships some that I broke up for right or like we grew apart, there are the ones where we understood love languages. And I know that's a very like basic cliche thing to say, but I'm a very needy person in terms of affection, sometimes yourself needing. I'm the only child, so I like affection. There's nothing wrong with that. I think from a partner, like I like a lot of independence if it's work or like friendships. But like from a partner, I do

think I need more than the average. Can I ask you why you're asking her not to use the word needing, because the word needing has a net negatives, not the first theists. If it's something wrong, there's nothing wrong with that. My first love language is physical touch. So if my wife goes all day without touching me, we have a problem. Like you didn't love me today, Like what's going on? Did something change? Like I need to understand what happened?

Like you passed by me like five times? Right, So there's nothing needy about that. That's just what you need for your cup to be fair. But to get back to the question, the solve of your difference is because only thirty one percent can be soft? Can actually can I tell you why I disagree and why is cheating? Because the other the other six to nine percent you're leaving out to where. Okay, the same thing that you

started the podcast. If I come to you time and time again and tell you this is what I need and you don't give it to me because maybe only of what my issues is going to be resolved, this

is why I'm gonna step out. Like if if it's only thirty one percent, which is why I also said I believe it has to be more than fifty because if I'm sitting here telling you there's three things I need you to change, and out of those three things, you only change one, that's gonna leave two things that you still just ain't even you know what I mean. So if I ask you that I don't want you to be an extra verte no more, I want you

to become an introvert. Could you change that? That sounds like you're taking me out a shirt club saying I don't want you to be a stripper, no more, don't be a stripper when you met me, this was me To me, there's a difference between problem solution and a relationship and changing someone's whole being. And I believe that that's something, and to me the no, But I feel

like that's the problem, not something. When you date, you date the idea of what you want someone to be for you without acknowledging who that person is to begin with, which is the problem why a lot of people show up with masks like I may be someone who can't be monogamous, but I'm dating you, and because fun, I know you want me to be monogamous, because this is what you want, I'm showing up with this mask of I'm gonna I'm gonna be in a monogamous relationship with

you because I know it's what you want. So no, you're talking about introverted person I feel like you're thinking about something and and this is no shake. I'm not thinking about anything. It's fine, but I'm saying I've read his Instagram page and went through his means just like a second. I think if you're down because I'm down, or anybody else in the room, I think it'd be really cool if we could maybe talk about one issue in a relationship currently in or failed in, and maybe

you give my perspective on it. Yeah, I mean, I guess I did have some scenarios for the hord derve, so I guess we could just go through those, or you can. You can say yours, go ahead and say horrors, don't go to that list. We can talk about it during the horrible decision. Okay, Um, the horrid DERF. I didn't want to do a sex tip, but that's actually what I did have. I had scenarios written down, UM, where if you could give an idea. Um, and this may or may not be something that anyone in the

room has gone through, or a listener as well. Um, but here's a scenario. He cheated on me and I took him back, but every time we have sex, I feel betrayed. I feel like it's ruining how we enjoy each other. What is the tip you would give a woman that took their partner back after they cheated? And now I can't get past that. What's the percentage of man? Because I keep saying a woman too, and you just said a woman. I feel like niggas be cheating. But

what's the percentage of what you've been seeing? Is it ninety ten? No? So in terms of cheating, um, dirty percent of black men well engage and in fidelity and ten percent of black women. However, I think you just thrown these UMBs at at this point. Not at all. No, you did not at all. However, within a marriage, after being married, a woman thinks about cheating two to four years in while it will take a man about four to six months four to six years before ever thinking

of cheating. So with with this scenario, what what most people don't know? It's facts four to six years orfo a man thinks about cheating. I don't know where you got more four to six years both before men would even consider infidelity. And where do they live? Is it in a box? Maybe were different types. Let me ask this question that I think might be even more helpful. Is there a demographic, not race or ethnicity, of income,

h of that. I don't know career, you know, I'm saying just from what you could gauge, not like a hard fact. But have you noticed certain careers maybe have changed that, maybe certain tax brackets have changed that. Um as far as where they live geographically, have you noticed a difference in fidelity? I would say that and Fidel lady attends to be more prominent once you start to have more success and you have more access. But the nick is busier, So how to they get more pussy? Uh?

Secretaries people that you're deal dealing with it again, like you, you spend more time at work than you do at home, and if you're traveling consistently, that's why work wives and work husbands better be careful. There's a little bit moaning cath Rold and you think I never had a work husband that I would really mind. Was hot though, but it didn't need pussy. That's probably why. That's why you

ain't because he didn't need pussy. Maybe because he did, you were considering he's gorgeous, but like, no, I wasn't. It got brother and sisterly. But if I would have seen him on the street, I would have sucked him. Yes, And back to this question, right, So when when you're cheated on, it's based Siically you show the same symptoms as someone that has been a war at war for three years, so you experience a high level of PTSD symptoms.

Let me text me, right, So that's the fact that now when she's being intimate, that's what she's thinking about, is laying Yes, it is those PTSD symptoms that she's experiencing, and it can last up to five years. What you got the three years cheating three five years. The PTSD

symptoms can last up to five year for cheating. Yes, So then if that's something that we discuss in therapy and it's supposed to be something I'm working through, is he's supposed to just put up with the fact that he's just supposed to put up with the fact that every time we are you, I'm gonna throw this other bitch in his face that he cheated on. And to me, that's not fair. What kind does she have? But you can't put a time frame on healing. Everybody's process is different.

So so day five I might not throw it in your face, but day twelve you might catch a shoe right because times we don't condone violence was domestic balance, don't. I don't hit niggas, but I think it might be better than something that should I'd be saying, because I'd be wilding out. Contempt the biggest productor of divorce with a ninety seven percent accuracy. Talk some more telling me so,

contempt is one of the four horsemen's right. Contempt. Contempt is basically, when you're belittling your partner, you'd be nothing without me. You you weren't this, you aren't that. Everything you have is because of how long beat them up. Like I think about a relationship I had where she don't meet that bad. But um, when I first moved to New York, we were dating and he cheated, and I remember I was so hurt about it because it

was someone I had been around. Um, we weren't cool, so I really shouldn't have been mad at that bitch. But I was just like, you're disgusting. How fucking what was this up? I said to him. I called him lazy. I was like, you could have sucked any base on the planet. I was like that you had to do these They'll be grinding bonass nigger and then I typed it up, emailed it. I was just like, now we started trying to date again, and he would say that he felt like he just deserved this punishment for me

the older I get. I don't think that's fair. Where at what point does someone have to take ownership? And like, Okay, if I'm going to quote unquote hell, I shouldn't be talking to you like this. But then again it's my PTSD. Well, that doesn't give you an excuse to barrage a person, right PTS means that he might be texting like who are you texting? Who are you talking to? Or when

he goes out. I need your location because right now I can't trust you to remain faithful to do you tell people do that like put locations in tip Again, I don't tell people what to do, but I facilitated the conversation, meaning what boundaries are you willing to put in place to if guard the relationship and re earn their trust. So I've had a lot of people say, no, I want your location, I want your password to your phone. A matter of fact, I want to share a phone

with you. Now you do the crime. You yes, share a phone on WA we can another phone hold on bit just to share and we can play snakes voice. I don't understand what the shared phone sharing your age? I mean I am, because I'm gonna tell you right now. If I want to t my wole girls and your mama call, she can't ignore it's giving landline. That's the only phone, because don't nobody have land Latin? Is that what? You can't sign on on on on an iPad and

get everything that's on the phone. Actually no, because I will. I don't emerge any of my and your partner said, I don't trust you, and the way to re earn my trust is that there can be no barrier to me knowing anything. That's okay. But let me the question right, you must have sucked my goddamn sister if I like

and I don't have one. And it's weird because we went through all of this conversation regarding cheating without really defining how cheating can mean so many different things, and it just thought of me when you're talking about sharing a phone in a group chat, the way we all share big Shawanda Nella did little physic all the dicks to be popping up and they be leaked and ship if that's in a group chat with me and my

home girls. There's no men in this threat, but a lot of men can view looking at other people's dicks or liking other pictures, cheatinging what thing? What? What has been? Something that was minute to you, very small to you. They bring it to therapy that they felt cheated or betrayed, but it had nothing to do with after that, we should finish what happened with the Polly couple too, because I forgot. We need to get to that. But that's a good one. I saw. That's someone to find that cheating.

Um Um, I don't know, looking at someone in the street, like liking pictures. I was about to say, liking pictures social media, social media, social media man like currently I think, um, fifty of affairs are online affairs right now without sex. Wait wait, I don't meaning that they swiping. It starts online like exchanging messages, were commenting and eventually a little too strong. You know what it is? Uh? Micro cheating

is something I've heard before. Micro cheating where it's like maybe you start again liking people's pictures or girls pictures to kind of send a message without really sending a message. Does that make sense. Now I just go or not not like people's pictures without wanting to send a message that I want to suck it. Yeah, but niggas, you know what nigga has been doing. If you got back to seventeen and like pictures, I know what it means.

But if I just posted a few pictures and you like actually remember back and there was no d you know how much men do this by the way, that I didn't. I didn't even keeep it. And one of my home girls was like, he must have a bit a dude athlete. People know him, but he's no Lebron, but he's not someone you wouldn't know in the street, not three am, late night, all down my ship and I'm like, oh my god, right right right, So then we're damn in a little bit. Get to a text message.

Tell my friend about it in the morning. I'm like, did she like like a hundred picks? She was like, what he did? They were gone in the morning. Oh no, that's that's right, And he knows I did this to get your attention. I stopped talking to him quick, But to me, I was like, I didn't even peep it. You basically are just doing this whole thing where you like like like to where someone is now engaging they see you on your day and you're like, all right,

the bitch saw me. Now that's petty nasty, but men fucking do it. A previous relationship of mine, I definitely got in trouble for liking pictures to me. Then that's an insecure partner. I don't used to know. But she was. She granted she was in bikini, but did you know the girl like nake? Yeah it wasn't, but it was different. That wasn't a fire emoti because nis leaving, that's just

it regular. You can't want to suck me, but the alpha could be good at the same time, it was People's trauma are difference, so their definition of cheating might differ from yours based on their experiences growing up. What you want your wife be fighting about? Is that your wife? No? I know here, she said, So what do you mean your wife? Um, currently we have a twelve week old and a two year old, so that's that's all you have to say. Yes, you can stop there. Basically, Okay,

we got goddamn kids, are you? I got the night shift, and she asked the day shift? But what the hell are you at during the day recording podcast money? You were that we were talking about the craziest thing that's happened. Yes, so they had a threesome together, okay, and in the middle of the threesomes she went ballistic and she attacked the other girl. Cops were called and etcetera. You know what, how did you keep your face together? That's what I

want to know, is a professional damnit? And say, let me pull up a document of the time. Right, sometimes I might have a rankly shirt on or whatever the casement because I worked from home. It's my session. Can I ask you? Did you was that a suggestion at all that you made? So you because you said they were together four or five years he wanted to change into being Polly. This was something that she clearly was like and now you changed that she could into it.

And so was this something to where they discussed or brought them to therapy that she was willing to do this for him and it wasn't something she wanted to do. I just wanted to know how because you already kind of that she wasn't comfortable with the idea of power. Correct, So we had a consultation call, right, So they never signed on to therapy. It's after the three South happened came to the therapy. So on average, couples wait six

years too late before coming to therapy. Right, so by that time period, there's been six years of tax texicity that we must now overcome as quickly as possible, which is why a lot of couples will will will sign on for marathon sessions, which is one day, six hours. We're just working. So they tried to get do you remember Mandy and I did therapy together and he was like, you guys should do a couple's retreat. Do you remember that one the Dominican guy and he was like, you

guys should go away. I ain't listening a lot, he said, because then they started pulling up diagrams of the brain. I said, this ain't the type of therapist. On one, I love that type of therapy. W the Black woman again basically when he in the type of therapy he does,

he was like it's something that it made sense. He was like, you're doing you're triggering each other in a certain way and you get into fight or flight if like Mandy said a certain thing to me, I say a certain thing in her He's like, at some point your brain is shutting off because you get triggered. Right, So I like, right, like, if she says one thing to me, I'm done, I'm not going to hear it. Which it makes sense because a lot of couples, like

I've had that problem in relationships. But anyway, he was like, you guys should do a retreat, go away whatever. Do you find that marathon therapy is effective versus building over time depending on how bad the relationship is, I would recommend a marathon session. Can you explain what a marathon

session is? So it's basically in so each session is ninety minutes long, right, weekly, But instead of doing that, we just meet for one weekend and we work for up to six hours a day, correct, and we just get busy, like we we go through the program as quickly as possible. Are they together like in the same room?

Oh no? And also they were false oximeter on their finger, right, because it will help you identify when you're triggered and when you're So for you guys, right, I wish I had two of them with me because I would have you work not see exactly what sets you guys off. I would love to know that because sometimes I think I know what makes me upset, but I don't know. You know, like you can have a past memory that maybe makes you upset, or it could be a bad

day or like antism. Yeah, so at that time period, right. So for for the women, if your heart rate surpasses eight beats, that means that you're currently flooded and should take a twenty minute break where you're doing something else that's not related to the men. It's a hundred. Would it work with because your your horning listen, dear COVID. When I had to go and it was trying to check my oxygen levels, it wouldn't get I could never do it with my creser. I've been doing it for

a long time, thank you. So wait, you put the finger, you Pathea to put the sandr finger? Does it work when your horny? Is it? Just like? Have you tried it the other way? No? But I'm gonna try it now break up the new babies. She'll be like, let's do some nasty ship ship from my job. So one of the things that you said in the beginning of this podcast, um, which I actually did want to talk to talk about because my mother as well as my

friends have gone through it. You said the only couple that you suggested should break up was when one of the partners was a narcissist. And so I've recently been having this conversation because narcissism is one of the only things that have There's not really anything you could do if you're dating a narcissist. There's no medication. A lot of times therapy won't give them past being a narcissist. And so if their narcissism is truly affecting the relationship,

you shouldn't be in it. So my question to you is, then, where what should someone do if they do want to work through being with someone who is a narcissis instead of breaking up? And I'm saying that because the heartread is going up with discussing narcissism. I know, because a lot of the things that they do in a relationship, again, the way they talk down to you, the way they may treat you, the way may they may ostracize and make you feel belittle, has really little to do with you,

but a lot more to do with their narcissism. And so if you just went straight to you shouldn't be with this person. What would you tell someone who is trying to be with a narcissist? Yes, I would tell them this, which part of yourself is predispposed to date a narcissist? And and what is it about yourself that has led you to believe that you deserve this treatment? I need you to answer those two questions, and that alone should help you make the best decision possible. When

do you think that the narcissism is too much? I feel like we all have it somewhere. So um eight percent of males show case narcissistic tendencies, especially with social media out right, but it tends to be is a way different than a certified diagnosed narcissist. When you're diagnosed as a narcissist, what do you mean diagnosed? You can not like literally, this is something that I've like in

my current life. I've been dealing with friends who here's the thing too, write I'm not a mother, and I'm not a wife, I'm I'm not a fiance. I haven't had a partner lived with me. So in terms of my friends who bent to me about their relationships, a lot of times they excuse the behavior and say, well, this is a compromise that I make, because this is

what a relationship takes. And it doesn't take until sometimes a few years ship for them to realize that this person is never going to change, and that it had nothing to do with compromise. It had a lot more to do with them trying to see the best in this person and they're never going to get that person to change. It usually takes about fourth or seven years. Quait, But what's I gotta do with what you're saying, your friend? They were diagnosed narcissists. Now, like he said, most men

have have narcissist tendencies? How do you how do you get diagnosed? Diagnosed? When you start going to therapy? There's can you can you share some traits of a diagnosical a lot better about my ship in therapy? Right now? What a diagnosed narcissists in comparison to someone who just

may see highly of themselves, they're the difference. So actually, like um, I'm I'm in the process of doing a lot of research on narcissism because I've had a lot of female clients that have dealt with narcissists and they have to rebuild a whole new life and a whole new identity just to heal from what they have experienced trauma. So it narcissists is someone who believes that they're never wrong.

They have a grandiose view of themselves, like you should be lucky too by your hip, exactly, you should be lucky to be with me, right, it's all, it's all. It's all about them. It's how can you serve me? And what can you do for me? And if you're no longer doing that, I will discard of you. I will use criticism and contempt to control you and to mold you into who I want you to become, because that's what benefits. If I had to think of it, is that like they can never learn. Basically they can't

like they can. It's it's like and it could be work, could be a friend, and you're like, oh my god, and you're trying, and they just no more. Like they're very successful in life because in order to be successful, right, you need to have this tunnel vision of wanting to be the best. And and this society is built where the best is the one that's rewarded. So we're creating

a lot of narcissists. I recently tweeted about this because it was really surprising me, Like I I work for someone that's not a narcissist, but like really really smart, really rich and super successful. And one of the things that continues to blow my mind about him no matter how many articles fucking millions and millions of dollars, Like he's so like chest out when he tells you he

doesn't know something. You could be on a call and he's like, I have no idea like what this is, but um, you know on my team, I have Wheezy and she'll get into that with you, and I don't even know if that's the Martinson, Like, oh, I don't

know what this is, but this is who does. Like I'm gonna build it around me, And that, to me is when you really get to learn someone that's like you could either be the master of none or jack of all trades, and you've got to like build that out and in relationships now, I've tried to literally do that with friendships, right, Like I've had troubles in my relationship where old Bay, right, my partner will be like every time you talk to so and so, you come

back to me and you're like fucking crazy, while like ghetto bitch energy, like you want to fight me, bro, Like what the fuck? He's like, you need to start hanging with some and so more. I'm like, you know what, my homegirl got away too much trauma and I call her mad about you. I do need to talk to someone that's level headed. And it's like I've tried to place who I come to for advice now with that and like in every aspect, like we can't know it all.

And I think with relationships especially like because you were just saying your friend, you cannot go to one person and be offloading and emotionally dumping because all we're gonna do is hate that nikkovitch. And every time you called me, I'm gonna be like tell you, oh yeah, I don't talk.

I don't want to see him. Don't bring him around me because if you're gonna sit here, here's the thing too again, I broke up with my nigga a whole lot of times before I fully broke up with him, and a lot of my friends unfortunately he was around us, and so they take in the hate we may have from one day and now the next thing. Now, I let that nigget up, and I think that that has to do a lot more with just the oversharing of women.

We overshare a lot of things, which is also But to be fair, I sat on this pot for a whole year and talk about how perfect my nigga was and witch as they like that ship either. So you

damned if you do, damned if you don't. Maybe you just shouldn't share anything about your nigga because they're gonna come in and and and be your nines shining harbor, and then they're gonna be the motherfucking joker and fucking kill your heart, your soul, your spirit, and your friends just have to be there to uplift you to he I hate it. I hate it's it's awful. I'd be like this no day, not when I like best. Do you know how to communicate? You know what's crazy? Um?

Well please please offline you can test me you know what's crazy? Though. I literally recently said in in another podcast that the number one thing that I need in a relationship is communication, but the communications to where that That was why I left my partner because there was a lot of times and mind you, I am I'm not the one and I don't like when people do a lot of people will do things just to see

how you respond to ship. Right. A lot of people like to test their partners, their friends just to see, oh, well, let me see what happens if me. No, I'm gonna tell you exactly what I want. So when it came to my birthday, I told him exactly what I wanted and what I didn't want. You know what he did gave me exactly what I didn't want, and and that that should have been a bit red flag because the nick didn't show up. How I told him exactly what I want for Valentine's Day, he didn't show up. He

gave me just the bare minimum. I was like, nigga, I could get the bare minimum from these millionaire niggas that are still in my flo flowers. He didn't. He did give me flowers, but they were so ugly. I threw him bitches in the garden so much so I canceled his motherfucking Valentine's Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. Yeah, I don't like him. I ain't like the flowers he gave me, so that's why we broke up. I threw him in the gardens, but it

was because he didn't listen my nigga. Not only that that's where to God, but it's because I realized the trend, well know, and it was it was the trend. Though. Every time I tell you what Matt is to me, you show up in a way that to me, Now, there's no way you give a funk about what matters to me. And if we're going to continue this this thing of disappointment, which is what it was. Because also

I don't ask for much. It's not like I'm showing up how I did seven years ago, where not only do I want good dick, not only do I need attention, not only do I want to be taken out, you have to pay my bills because I don't have it. They were just bro they it looked like funeral flowers, my nigga. And then this nigga tried it right, So we on the phone. He's hout. This nigga tried to gas like me. He was like, I picked each flower out specifically, and they actually really cost a lot. And

here I go. You know how you say you say things the hurt of nigga feelings, I'm just too honest. So I told him, I said how much they cost, I'll cash ap you the money right now, you can have it back. I don't give a funk how much you spec. Wait wait, wait, they're ugly, but if you ask for flowers, I'm not trying any petty like. I'm just kind of saying I feel like if my homeboy called me and told me this, because it's always anytime my homewoye tell me something I talked today, bitch, after,

I'll be like, you left that out. If my homeboy called me and was like, yo, all she wanted was flowers, I went to the floors, I got him. Then she said they were ugly. She threw him out, I'd be like, Yo, she's a fucking bitch. You ain't see the flowers, because when when my friends see it, hold on, mind you. What made it worse too. He hand delivered them to my house knowing I wasn't home, so they were left on my door. Prize, bitch, you could have had a floors.

They didn't even come in a fucking base. So I'm like, you leave them on my door. They're in the plastic and all that, and I'm just like, mind you. I looked at them, bitches. I want to see them so bad. I don't know if I would be mad. Oh you know, I got a picture, you know what? And I didn't ask for specific flowers. However, again not listening because he didn't gave me my favorite flowers. One time he funked up.

He knew my favorite flowers. Some flowers. Okay, So the fact that you got me everything that goes in a funeral range except four, because now I'm kind of not I think that is Do you understand what the point is? It's the point. It's not even the flowers. The point is.

This was now probably the fourth time I had specifically said something that mattered to me and what I wanted, and instead of just listening to me, he did he did damn near the opposite where I I took it as there's no way you love me like you said you love me, there's no way you want to be in a relationship with because it was. But I do need to see the flowers like you really, because they say we're gonna do anything to disagree, I'm going to

be please be honest. But also, you know what else sucked? These bitches didn't even come with motherfucking flower food. I said, there ain't even flower board the card I'm not gonna lie. The card was the card was great, hand written. He said, he loved me. I inspired him. Look at don't don't bro hold on motherfucking New York City where flowers is on every corner on Valentine's Day. My Niggah, that's bad. That's bad. That's bad. Right. There was not even flower food.

He was like, they're gonna blossom once you put them in the blossom. Remember meet the parents when he brought the pot. But that is a thing though, that is a thing about It looked like that was the last second you see the awful it it's everything, but it's some flower, it's daisy, it's one rose, it's baby's breath. Whatever the funk. They called him a little you feel but what you get what I mean, it's not even the flowers. It's the fact that you don't listen. And

that to me is a part of communication. Correct. And he doesn't know you because because if you knew me, you know what I like, you know what would speak to me on Valentine's Day. But also, nig you could have asked my doorman for the key and went ahead and put a whole bunch of pedals in the on the guy. And the only thing I will say, I actually like if I came home and I saw a card and flowers there, like you left them for me

because you know some of them. I think that's sweet those flowers know, But not only that, not only that, so so you also dropped them off knowing how I wasn't gonna be home, NIGGI, you could have waited till

let me do what I mean. None of it was some months back we had this episode in Old Baby Christ the Christmas give you all, like yeah, she like, what do you say to high fashion, Like, oh, I'm supposed be ungrateful for this six and oh yeah, my home girl just returned to three hundred all of perfume that she got for Valentine's Day because she was like, the ship does not smell good. I'm not gonna wear it.

But it was a bond. But the flower thing, we had a real conversation that we moved past from that. I was so happy about he would give me flowers when he fucked up, and I love flower is I buy them for myself by friends. But like now he was getting to the point where I was like, oh my god, I'm tired of it. I was getting my hair braided. I had a really bad night with him yelling at this nigga and really my only issue and I've talked about it for years on this podcast. He's

in his forties. He's an open relationship with me that I've been in with other people, so I feel like I do them decent. He's very nervous of thinking that being open we'll mean that I'll be angry, so he'll rather he'd rather just go to sleep, you know whatever, go to the club, not even sucking a bitch, just not tell me because he doesn't want me to think that he's out doing these things for whatever reason. And even when he's not doing ship like it. It drives

me insane. I've run into him with his whole boys nik. It wasn't with a bitch or anything, and I'm like, why did you act like people home they could just say, you know, but long story short. He will send flowers, not just any flowers, He's send the best. And I'm getting my hair braided, shout out to Shay and she's like, oh my god, I'm like, I'm s sucked up flowers and I'm so tired of that. I'm sorry flowers, get me flowers. That's the same the same thing, right now.

Oh I know, but it's just well, no, no, mine was just a part of listening. It wasn't even the flower that it wasn't want the flowers. So it's the same ship. Nothing to do with whether the flowers are nice not. It's the fact that Nick, you don't listen, you don't respect. At that point, then I don't need a break from I turned it into I turned it into respect, I turned it into There's no way these actions even match your words. There's like, you know what

I mean, it was just way too much. There was just like not the same way, missing another word, right, So the there first brain is working right, well, what is it? What I'm hearing is that the number one thing that a woman looks for in the men is trustworthiness. Cannot trust you. Are you going to do the things that you say you're going to do? Are you going to show up for me when I need you to show up for me? Are you gotta Are you gonna do what you say you were going to do it?

I mean he he was going to do nothing. But I'm telling you what to do, you don't do it, And it's I don't think of trust when I think about that, but in this and I guess we're the homemail. But I guess in this particular case, I just felt so I was. I felt embarrassed, you know what I mean, because the first thing I want to do, and like I hate to even say it like this because it sounds so juvenile, but like you get nice flowers. It's two.

I want to oh my God because my baby got me, but I can't because it came from like you fucking up, you know what I'm saying. And I think that what's happening in my relationship is he just does these lavish things only when he sucks up. We do live a very nice life, you know what I'm saying, Like we already do nice ship. It's not like I only go to dinner whatever when something like that happens, but there's a volume of it when he sucks up. I have

a great eve. Saint Laurent bag he bought me. That was a funk up, but I'll take that one other than that outside of god damn flower. And you know recently he sent some flowers and you know, put just to see you smile in a song we like. But I was like, damn, bro, this is the first time you ever got me flowers that you weren't sucking up in almost four years. I mean, you know how fucking crazy it is. I got floral PTSD dog clearly me too, right, Like I'm good, I don't well, I guess to wrap it.

What do you suggest men do when they have sucked up? Initially? The first thing that do you mean, feel better? Beat through listening? See what I mean? What I mean trying to be funny? What is doing in a grain jest or a bad thing? Not one it's consistently being done after you fuck up, because because now it's just it doesn't mean much to me that flight at that point, the former fighting, I'm almost hoping that nigger probably sunk up knowing it's what we're gonna cost me flowers. Yeah,

let me go ahead and do this thing. But to me, that's it, that day of a low emotional intelligence, right, because if you're emotionally intelligent and aware, you are aware of what your partner needs and how to not consist consistently sunk up. Right. So one of the big biggest things that women look for in a man or in a partner in general in general? Is are you able to be coachable? Right? If you get me flowers? But

I don't like flowers and I like sunflowers instead. After telling you that one time, you should know that because I've coached you enough to know what I like. But if you continue to give me everything everything, I don't know what I'm asking for, people are going to be very mad that they can't hear you again on another on your own podcast. I think you really should make one give me a contract. I've been here twenty times, sat on every single chair here. You know, every single

person that's here. I've been trying to get on this for years. Ye have heard um unofficially? What's that means? He liked all your pictures? I will tell you when I always think this is and tell me if you feel the same, because obviously we've been podcasting so long. I think whenever I have a guest, or I meet somebody or I'm around them and like I feel like it's not enough, Like that day we did with Brianda.

There's some other people of course we've talked to, and I was like Tianna, the girl who had the the food all over her body when I feel like someone needs more of them or I want to come back. That's when I'm like, oh, they do need a podcast. You should make one. Have couples come on there, black their face out anonymous, just do audio. It's cheaper, but well, you know, let's still do a good rate. But I'm telling you I would love that ship. Make them be anonymous.

There's a podcast I don't want to shout him out, but I'm ann shout him out anyway that a lady doing my eyebrows told me about because she recognized me. She was like, oh my god, due horrible decisions. While I'm like this, I was like, yeah, She's like there's a podcast called Other People's Lives and I feel like you would love it. And it's a podcast with two white guys and they take anonymous calls in for the most random ship. One of them was like, I was

a sex slave for my grandfather. Um, I gained weight from food for sex. Uh. I was in an airplane crash. Like random ship. You should do that with couples, but let them call in. It's some editing word. I don't really want much, but or another one, and I want to shout out another podcast to uh, it's called you up, shout out some medina. She put me onto it. But it's a man and a woman and they dissect the

communication of text messages between two people. And a lot of times there's tone delivery that you don't pick up on. There's things that could have been said that didn't get said, and so they're sent in and these two people dissect maybe where the conversation went, left where it could have went, because a lot of times it's friendships, it's relationships. You've also got to learn people style, like one of my news. Sorry, I realized that how to just get one of my news?

He says, he knows I'm mad at him when I put a period at the end of it. Okay, Sunctuation is important and text messaging, oh my god, and like like he faced time to be months as b D D and he just called he faced time. He's like, what's up with you? I was like nothing, I'm good, And he was like, oh, would you put a period in the end of that son to have a great night? Really, he was like, you'll do have a great night with exclamation point when you mean it. And I was like, damn,

he really know what my feelings. I'll just leave someone on red. But I haven't to do that a lot because I'm like working or something. But some people take that really personally. You know, I'll read it, especially depending on where it's going. Like I leave people on red, I just disconnect from people quickly, like all right, I'll tell them good night at four pm. I think good night. You're gonna have a real hard time dating. Oh oh god, well now right now, I just don't have the time.

Not for the reason that you think, because no, knowing you and what I've seen and how I'm seeing you now, it's gonna take a very special mental Everyone says that to to deal with you. This is and I already know and no, I feel like it not at all when people tell me that, and not even that from like I'm something to deal with perfect When men say things or when people say things like oh, you're growing, you're getting successful, it'll take a special person to be

comfortable with it. That I know where but it's like, I know it. I feel like it's discouraging because to me it's not. We live in up We live in a place too where patriarchy is still like so big as women now we're showing up as full bosses. I don't need a man to do anything. So that's been a conversation in my past relationship as well. He's like, I don't even know how to show up with you. I don't know how to show up as a man, because how I've shown up in all my past relationships.

That's not what you need from me. So we've had those actual conversations. That's how he shows up like like like I remember saying, I feel like I need to call one of these niggas and be like God slot the man, very secure him. I hear has this an identity and is able to do the things that you need done right. It might be just, but not flowers make me breakfast the town hall. I think that'd be fun too. Yeah, tell us where to find you, Tell the people to find you. Yes, you can find me

on Instagram. As talked to Mac on the Score Therapist talk the number two Mac M A C. It'll be in the description of the episode. Also, if you're in New York and New Jersey and you're looking for a couple of therapy, I also have a couple's workshop, a one day intensive helpers workshop, and you and you do do things in person. It's not all remote amazing. I'm tired of the remote world, Like I wanted to be here today. Yeah, so I have that coming as well.

I also have a special gift for you guys, if I may, If that's okay, you could give me anything because I ain't got a nigam I get my bag. Please help with some flowers hold away, like just make a mark for a cup for this. Yeah, will you be another two minutes? Okay, I just gotta jump on the staff call. Oh, go ahead, get drop. So I created these cards d ring promotion. He's like, bitch, I

got a podcast. Would you can buy these cards? My cardic It's a clinical card game that you are not to play with your friends or as a group, but that you are to play with your significant love in the comfort of your home. I ain't comfortable just when the real work starts. This is so me and like we piece to play games a lot, you know, of course, and then another thing. But oh my god, you do this on the first day. Okay, you need to be the reason I asked that is, what's your biggest regret

in life so far? So I was like, okay, I like this great idea. Yo, love this again? Where can they buy this? That's directly on my Website's therapy is for everyone that this is a really really I love that. Thank you Max for coming on. Um, we absolutely adore you. Yeah, we'll probably bring you on to Patreon episodes soon, so maybe we can really dig Deeferent. We could do it. Want his baby Mama? He want to play me like

that on FaceTime of that beach? Oh lord? All right, well guys, thank you so much for tuning in again. We've talked about Patreon if you want an extra episode every week, as well as the opportunity to join us on our town halls once a month, join us at patreon dot com. Backslash Horrible Decisions. Also, if you're watching us on YouTube you see our beautiful merch hanging up behind us, you can get your Horrible Decisions merch now

at hor hive dot com. It's actually exactly how it is, so w H O R E H I V E dot com and get your merch. Motherfucking na um. Thanks for watching the show. Thank you. This will be yet another episode of Decisions Night. It's bonus, bitches, and we've get gee, it's not going to be filled with much tea. I already have people like would an old bays say when he heard this, bitch, I wouldn't know. I blocked

that new bro. I mean, he may have someone giving him the tea anyways, I'm sure, but um, I just thought, I guess to give if he knows what he did. When I was in the elevator just coming up to do this episode, um my neighbor, I had a company sent me like a hundred bodies groups, maybe forty. I'm not exactly a hundred forty, about forty right, black ticks. She's next door. So I handed it to her. I was like, oh here, I got this, you know in the mail. I wanted to give him to you. I

was because we gotta keep from staying young. She goes, and we gotta keep staying young. And she was like, bro, I'm way older than you. And I said, what you use? Thirty five? I swear on my mom And I thought she was maybe at max like thirty eight. She looked really young and she said I'm fifty. I said, bitch, I know you vegan. That's that's how it might not even be vegan. That's how uh, that's how motherfucker's be treating my ex like my ex does not look fifty

at all. No, And I think that's the thing though, when you really take care of body. And don't get me wrong, I only know her because she is a dog. So we'd be at the dog park, but she'd be running with the dog, jumping up and off the table like working on like crazy. And I'm like, yo, you know you don't like fifty. So I say all that to say, she said, because I thought about Maggie. Who's the bitch Obey went see and due and she said, girl, I don't have a concept of time. She said, if

you asked me, I'm still sucking the nick. I was from high school. She was like, everything feels the same. She was like, I take care of my body. She was like, and my spirit is like she said, I eat good and I'll tell no lies. I said, I know, not right, and I really want to tell old Bay because this body is fucking crazy. He really really works on his body, but he tells lies, and so that's why he's bald. Well. Balding is not no body. I like hair. Bald is sexy, but I doubt what a

lot of diggas was bald. I've had other bald niggas coming. Suck me down. You like bald players? Oh? Episode named sorry anyways, guys in this episode is our cinema for the month, and we chose to do Bad Vegan if I'm not a bad Vegan on bacay bro. It was good. It was really good. But what's crazy too? I think last month we did The Tender Swindler, so it's very similar in conversations. So I dug in to do some different things. But before we started with with the catchup,

I want to know what other TV you were currently watching? Um? Jocelyn's Caperette Honey, I can't wait to see this tea was one one day I just I just went to a sante's house and he caught me all the way up with it, so a mess. Did What was I gonna say? Um, I've been rewatching Girls on HBO and I've been watching what is it that I watched every Sunday? Oh not neither fiance. That ship's getting crazy? Um. I

didn't want to make mention. I was in a every week On Tuesday's we have a staff meeting with all the heads at my job, and two of the departments have to do with stuff you watch right, film and TV, and literally one of the girls is like, someone so keeps throwing me a project, but like, by the time we released this on Netflix, they're already gonna be tired of this scamming. She's like, Netflix goes in waves, so right now you've got Ana LV, then you've got the

Tinder Swindler, then you've got Bad Vegan. She's like, we're in a wave of scam She's like, we've been in a wave of stand up. We got in a wave of black sheet and she's like, Netflix hits you in waves and keep feeding you. She's like, by the time we acquire this project, the wave will be off. And I was like, wow, like that is really like Hollywood ship because I don't even I forgot Anna Delvy to all of them, and now it makes me want more. And of course because you watched blah blah blah, now

you like this. So it's like I do enjoy it, and the Bad Vegan story was great, but like I want to actually see how long that time. Really It's weird because I really don't think people get sick of it. Like I'm someone and I think I mentioned it on this pod when I'm just like nothing's on TV. I love to binge American greed, which technically is scams maybe a year or two ago. No, no, no, people don't

get sick of it. I think they're saying, like the hype. Oh, I mean but even what was it one or two years ago now was Firefest and that had everyone's talking. So I mean, I think that the people love watching

other people get got over on. I don't know why, but I think it's a thing I think is it's also like the everyday person to all of these people are very unassuming, you know what I mean, Like I think I was talking to Sophia that they're not even unassuming, they just white because the way, no, no, no, there could be your everyday persons crook as bitches who somehow even just get the access to all this loan money. It's insane. So it's in thick