Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance podcast. Tonight. We are in beautiful Big Sky, Montana, Montucky as some people call it, and what we're doing here is we just completed the World Elk Calling Championships put on by the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, and I didn't compete, but we have four world champion elk calling callers if you will in the house tonight. First off, we've got Jermaine Hodge, we got Tony Gilbertson, and we got Eric Berglan. The last,
but not least, Dirk Durham. May or may not know this. I'm a world elk calling champion too. I just don't really like to toot my horn about it. I'm I like to focus on the hunt, and so do these guys. But it's fun to compete. It's fun to get up there, show your stuff and see where you stack up against the best of the best. And today there was some upsets, some stuff that we didn't expect. And I always go back to these contests. It's so subjective, it's it's got
the human element. You have a panel of seven judges, they say who they like the best, and if after talking to the judges, you find out they're not all looking for the same thing. They're not like on this this even keel board of things that they're looking for. You know, one guy might say, no, I'm really looking for really well executed calls, very articulate, no fails. It sounds good, sounds sounds realistic like an elk, but it's flawless. And another guy says, no, no, no, no, I'm not looking
for that. I'm looking for natural, authentic elk sounds. So in the end, it can be anybody's game. But with that being said, you can't win this without putting in the work. And these three guys, I have said with me right here, I'd argue they're they're they're the best of the best. They are, they're world champions. And not only are the world champion el colors, they're pretty damn good guys and good elk hunters too. So last fall
we sent these guys on the quest. Now, Jermaine Hodge, Germaine, what do you think about North Idaho?
Well, well, first, first of all, you know, I didn't start hunting milk until two thousand and six, and I hunted all of Colorado, most of all of Colorado, and I will tell you, I had an expectation of thick, but not like like I imagine thick, but not as thick as it was. And then I didn't. I was expecting like the he was to kind of gradually go up. No, No, that was some stuff. I think the highest peak where we were was like five thousand something feet.
I mean that mountain range the highest peak seven thousand feet, but most of other peaks around are about six thousand sixty.
Yeah, they're not as high. And uh, you know, Colorado Springs in Colorado is like fifty seven My buddy Pats is like nine thousand feet, and then my house is like forty eight hundred feet. So we're you know, we're basically camped out at some of those highest peaks out there, and when we go in Colorado, we're based camping at like ten to three.
You know.
I think I took Tony through some of that my neck of the woods here a few weeks ago, and we're like ten to three and we're hunting eleven a eight ten eight eleven eight is where all those But but it's not it's a gradual clime, right, but the peaks are way higher. It's just gradual clime, North Idaho mean bush.
It was some Avatar stuff.
It's a jungle.
It was you know when the Avatar was that commandery came out. He's like, Avatar mean bush.
Idaho mean bush?
Well Tony. You come from western Oregon, yep, So you're kind of accustomed to brush. What do you think?
So I am accustomed to brush, but it's it's different.
Uh.
The brush we got back home is number one. That's thick, so similar to North Idaho. There's a lot of stuff that pokia. I mean, we got all kinds of things that got thorns on them. So this brush up there in North Idaho, I don't know what that That low growing shrub you guys up there, that's real woody and got these waxy leaves on it.
Definitely that's it's either all that stuff is real tight and scratchy. That's that stuff. Well yeah, that stuff murders. It'll rip the clothes right off.
Yeah.
Well not only that, but you can't just like there's no trails through. I mean they elk go through it. But trying to go through there, man, my my hip flexers. After going through that stuff up there, we're chasing that bigger heard bull that one time, coming back up that mountain through that stuff, it was. It was bad. And then on top of that, you got that bear grass. It's wet, it's even worse. It was. Yeah, I don't I can't tell. I can't count the times I ended up on my butt on that trip.
I was on my butt more than I was on my feet.
That was bad.
It was bad and steep. I mean, we've got some steep country back home too, but we don't gain the kind of elevation that you guys gained north. That fast was steep.
Well, they say if you were to flatten out Idaho, and I don't know who they are, but they say, if you flatten out Idaho, you would have a state larger than Texas because of the terrain and the topography and how deep the valleys are.
Yeah, it was steep.
There's some steep, nasty country.
Yes, that one, well, we can get to that later. But that that I'm never chasing bulls with you again. By the way, most of dark No, yes, no, that was we almost died.
It was nip and tu But did you die?
Well, now, Eric, he hunts us this place every year, so you know what you knew what to expect you had and you knew kind of where to go. I kind of gave you guys some spots to go to check out. But what do you think of these these these brush country greenhorns?
It was, uh, it was, it was. It was definitely surprising.
You know.
I knew Tony Tony, you know Western Oregon, you know coaster range, you know, thick, so I thought he'd have some similar feelings towards it. And as far as like the elevation, the steepness, you know, I thought, you know, Jermaine, you know, I thought we'd do fine, you know, and we did do fine.
But.
You know, I know, I know Jermaine and his engine, and to see him, you know, humbled by the northern Idaho country was I'm like, man, if Jermaine's like, dude, this is no joke, but.
I wanted to break his kneecaps, like and you stay, we were there and if our and if our our listeners don't know, Jermaine is an elite athlete, you know, all American wrestler.
Right, this guy he's got wheels and he's got lungs to go anywhere. He looks, he looks, he looks unstoppable, right, But so that makes me feel pretty good that a man like that can get humbled by a place like that. Yeah, it's not for the week of faint of heart.
It's physically, mentally and emotionally taxing.
Yes, especially you.
Know when you're out, when you're out in that country, day in and day out for weeks on. In chasing bulls, you get close and the wind wind screws you over what have you, you know, and you drop twelve hundred feet in elevation fifteen hundred sometimes and then you climb back out and sometimes, you know, flirting with doing that twice, you know, twice in a day.
We got into some sketchy stuff.
It's it's humbling man, it'll it'll, it'll smoke your your lamborfis real quick a couple of times. Joke.
So the reason we sent the Phelps team sent these guys on this mission. These guys came together and each one of them devised their own signature ELK call. They wanted to you know, I got a couple of Maverick fans here, you know, the best call ever invented, of course, which is my call. Eric and Tony love the Maverick Germaine. He was more of a white amp guy. But they all, with these guys knowledge of calling and hunting, we wanted to put together an opportunity for these fellas to get
together hunt together. They'd never hunted together before. Throwing this in this pot in North Idaho and I kind of, you know, I'm like, oh, it'll be good, it'll be good, and there's it can be really good and it can be really bad. So if you're in the wrong drainage, there won't be an elk, and there's never haven't been an elk there in ten years. But you get in
the right drainage and there's some elk in there. But with Eric's experience and some of the places I knew were to send them, they can kind of find some of those places elk. So they got on some elk. But they wanted to put these calls to the test, so each guy devised their own elk call. They have a certain thickness of latex, a certain stretch of latex.
And.
Elk calls are so so they're so personal. Each person has a preference and a lot of times we get people to say, oh, which is the easiest one for me to use? It's very that's kind of a loaded question because everybody's so different on how their mouth is shaped and how they blow the call and everything else, so it's very user specific. So these guys wanted to build a call that was user specific for them, and I in my mind, I thought, great, we're gonna get
three Mavericks. Three more Mavericks come out, But they were anything but Mavericks. So we sent them on this Like what was your tony, what was your anticipation, what was your what was your thoughts of this hunt? What did you think was going to happen when you got there? What you had some things that going through your mind? What what was this going to be? Like?
Well, I think you know, for me, I've known Eric and I've known Jermaine for a few years now.
But I've never hunted with them.
And when you hunt with somebody, you develop a different kind of relationship. I mean, you go through a hunting season and you really put the effort in you you develop a relationship that's unlike most relationship for friendships that you have with other people. I mean, you you really you have to support each other. Uh, it's a lot of teamwork, you know, you don't really know what to expect.
And I didn't either. I mean, I kne they were great guys, but going into this, I was thinking, well, this, this could be either really bad or it could be really good because you get you get the kind of personalities that come together and and they have their own hunting styles and if they are the type of people that say, you know, I think my style is the best, you can have conflict, and we didn't have any of that.
You know, everybody, I think all three of us have the kind of personality that's just like, let's just let's just give each.
Other a chance to open ideas.
Yeah, just just see how things go. So that was the first thing. I knew that North Ida was steep. I knew it was thick. I didn't really know what to expect. I mean, I've seen some videos on YouTube and other places about North Idaho and hunting and and and it definitely looks just ep and thick, and and I was used to the thickness. But like I said, it's it's it's it's a different kind of thickness. But you know, at the end of the day, when when we got there, we set up camp, and uh, you know,
it just we jelled. We jelled, we we went out and found some milk. We've got different styles. We've got Jermaine that's got you know, he's just super intense and aggressive. We've got Eric that maybe isn't quite that much. And then and I think I'm somewhere in between. But you know, we just if if Jermaine went after it, we went right after it with him, and then if it didn't work out, we'd kind of come together and talk about it and say maybe maybe we should have done different.
But you know, overall, it was it was a fun experience and and I've I've developed a friendship with these guys that I didn't have before. It's different.
Yeah, did you have any expectations going into this, like I really want X.
Out of this trip, Eric, Yeah, you know, I mean obviously, you know, we all had we all had tags. You know, my expectation was, you know, set the bar high. I want us all the punch tags. I want it to be a good time. I would like everybody to get along and uh, you know, everything just a mess, just you know, just to gel. You know, Jermaine was successful. You know, we had some close, really close opportunities where we almost got shots off, you know, Tony and myself.
But yeah, my my expectations, I think it I think it met met my expectations definitely, Just like Tony was saying, you know when when you know we see each other, you know, worlds or some of these different events and we get a brief amount of time to talk to each other, to hang out, to visit. But when you're sharing you know, camp to me is pretty personal. And even if it's a close friend, like if you just ain't working, it's like, sorry, dude, love you, but you got you got to go. And so.
I mean.
We made it.
You know, it's it's maybe maybe I'm I'm I am very selfish in that aspect when it comes to my time in September in the woods and you know with the guys and with my buddies that have taken me under their wing and have showed me you know how you know how to arch you're hunting, got into calling. But it definitely met my expectations, says We all got along real well. You know, something didn't work, we'd huddle up, you know, we try we would try something different, but
we all we always had each other's backs. You know, sometimes it's it's easy to get discouraged when things are going tough or not going your way. You know, we pick each other up. And it was it was it was very it was very you know, refreshing. And I remember the last day we were on top of this mountain and uh we were we were hiking back down to the trucks and I was, you know, standing next to Tony and and I'll admit it, I teared up a little bit, you know, because that all did you know,
It's the it's the struggle, it's the grind. It's that that limited amount of time you have each year to break away from work and go spend that all that time that we all cherished so deeply in the woods together and just how much of a good time we had, all the laughs that we had, the ups and the downs. It was just it was definitely experience that I will I'll never forget.
It was. You're exactly right. But I got to tell you, man, you, I mean, you and I spent a lot of time in the truck together going to and from because we kind of split up. You put way too much pressure on yourself. I told you that.
I mean to tell you.
So because because Eric, he was like I gotta you know, he felt additional to get us on bulls and when it didn't happen, he was like super bummed. And it wasn't you. I mean, that wasn't your job. You know, we had a place to go. We've all got experience with different levels of experience, different types of experience. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. I mean, that's that's here.
They're not they want to play, they don't want to play. It's just the way it is. But you did put in a lot of pressure. But it's okay because you.
Just I just I wanted I wanted it to I think there's different aspects of successful or to a successful hunt, you know, but I just I wanted it to be successful for everybody. I want everybody to have a good time, try to try to put as much as they could accomplished. Man, you had a great time and I did. I did too, And I'm kind of my own worst advocate and multiple aspects of life and had myself that.
We know, we all judge ourselves hard than everybody else.
Yeah, I think we all find ourselves a little guilty of that. I'm like my biggest critic and my worst critic.
Yeah, and you know.
But that's how that's why I think that that that's what makes us go. You know. We want to achieve, we want to do good things. We don't want to do great things. And the people around us, we have we set a pretty hard high bar so they can have a good experience too. I'm pretty hard on myself.
I want my friends or hunting partners to have a good experience too, and it bugs me if we didn't, because I know how much I love it, Yeah much, I enjoy it, and I want to share that same special thing with them.
Yeah, but your great time might be bugle and milk everywhere. We're getting in the mad bulls. Maybe we didn't kill them, but their spears might be down here to bring them up to the high points. So your experience might be like I'm gonna put them on all kinds of bulls and it don't happen and it only hurt hurt two bules, and they're like, heicke it, yen is the best experience ever?
Yeah yeah, which, like picking out hunting partners, is super important to have these conversations long before you get to the woods. And I don't know if you guys did any of that, but like vet your hunting partners and ask them, what are your expectations? What are you looking
to do? Man? Are we are you wanting to kill three hundred and fifty inch bulls or are you wanting to just have a good time, have some encounters, because a successful hunt to one person, that is a bomber hunt to somebody else, like, oh man, we failed, but somebody that's new to elk hunting might say, I just want to hear an elk bugle this year.
That's why we kind of did there.
We we we were on like weekly or bi weekly conversations for a while, so we had everything and we went double dipping on stuff. So we made sure what we were caring together, and then we talked about expectations.
And dude, I think that's really I wouldn't say that's the only reason, by no means, the reason why we jailed is because first you can laugh, have a joke and not not be offended, rag somebody's butt because you laging a little bit and not be offended and take it like yo, they're trying to pick me up kind of thing. And then it was a bunch of different combinations. But I'll tell you this, the whole crew there pretty much was was jeling. We were all on the same page.
We came together every freaking day day, every day, and everybody shared the whole workload. And that's the most important thing, because if you if you got partners that ain't gonna share some of the workload and you do it, you'll carry that burden. It'd be way worse than what you're talking about. Because I've been.
There well like, and it creates friction.
It creates friction, It creates friction, and that was never there in that camp, and I'm so glad it wasn't because I don't even think I don't think this whole group would even allow that to happen, honestly, because we all chipped in. You know, at the end of the day, we lick our wounds. We might have a beer too, and drink some water and pass the heck out and rent and repeat. My point is is that the group was yelling, and I think you was. Your point being
is that vetting your partners. It wasn't the point that we had been together before. There's a point that we already had been We hung out many times, but then we were vetting each other over the phone and getting all right, Tony's like this, Eric's like this, boom, all right, let's jail this together. And it worked out. I think it, you know, I honestly, if we had to go back and do it again, it might be some different changes, but you might get in this question.
We learned a lot though, I mean we learned a lot.
We learned a ton and regardless it was a successful hunt, I mean we had we had a good time. Yeah, we chased bulls. We chased a lot of bulls, a lot of bulls. You killed a bull. I know a lot of guys that don't have that kind of success on a huh yeah.
Especially in a new area.
Yeah, in a new area. Uh. You talk about like expectations, like you know, when I was actually coming into the hunt, I said, you already kind of said it. You know, I've been competing for a number of years and I don't take losing very well. And I internalize it, right, I bottled it up. But it hurts. It hurts eat and so my expectations out of three tags ten days, I was thinking two two is like that's like nine, that's like right there at the top right, that's outrageous.
But reality is is that you got ten days, three tags. We'll be lucky to get one of these tags. Field. That is reality.
When you're talking about.
Elcome a lot of different places.
In different places that we're not even used to with deception of one and and uh. But for me, I gotta say, I gotta set the bar up high. Hey, it's gonna be two. And I was looking for two and it it possibly could have happened almost almost.
Set up that set up with with me and you two were calling behind.
Me many times.
I couldn't. I had to keep I was watching that ball and I kept pausing, like, man, those two guys sound so good back there, like you know, this is great, you know. And that bull came down, he did, and the only open lane which I thought he was eventually going to come into, he just happened to go to my left, and that wind was blowing to my ten o'clock yep, And he came right down through all that thick stuff and stop, got a whiffs, turn around trying to back out.
Speaking to the wind. What is with the wind in that country?
Oh?
I mean it's I mean we' be at the top of the ridge and you're thinking, Okay, it's that time of day. Thermals are coming up in our face. We've got bulls down here, bugling. We're set up, we're having a cow party. We're throwing on a few beagles here and then and pretty soon you hear crunch, crunch, crunch. You hear bulls coming from multiple different directions, thermals, like I said, right directly in our face, and all of a sudden at the back of your neck.
Oh hard all the time, hard.
And the woods would just erupt and those.
Right now, I'm at that country so broken like that just has such unpredictable thermals.
You know, do you think do you think it's because the timber cut that they do.
I don't know about that. I feel like if you look at the grand scheme of things, you look at the main ridge line the watershed divide, and then you watch the fingers and the ridges that come off the watershed divide, and then you see how it breaks up. It's like it's like a convolution. I mean, you picture the air going up it or going down it, and every one of those little ridges and fingers create disturbance and turbulence, and so you're gonna get these weird winds.
And then if you get some days where you have those big clouds that go over cool and cool the ground, well, then as soon as those clouds go over and you get like a little thermal cool right there, right where you're standing, but you know, three hundred yards away, it's still bright, hot sun that just screws the wind all up again. So man, it's tough in some of that country.
And it's so thick too, so someone that that tree growth is blocking that sun and then you get like a little swirl going on.
Oh yeah, well it's like yeah, we you know, we dropped. You know, we dropped multiple times. You know, in the afternoon, you know, wind's coming up and we maybe dropped down into a bowl. And a lot of times, even if that wind's coming up, as soon as you hit those trees where you get close to the water, that wind will start pulling down like a funnel through that bowl
and suck down through the bottom, you know. And so it's like there was a couple of times when we would we would drop down with the wind coming up, and then you know, we get it start to get into the trees, and we would try to make up, you know, locate the elk and try to make a big loop around and try to get you know, below them, thinking that the wind's going to pull down that bowl
like a you know, like a funnel kind of. And then you get into a patch of trees of this open sunlight and now all of a sudden boom thermal switch and it's coming back up and it's it's really unpredictable.
It's a tough cutry it. It does remind me of a little bit back home in that respect too, because like you said, Dirk, we we've got the same I mean again, not not as big a country in most places, but you talk about finger ridges, they're like everywhere. Man, when you're hunting roosevelts on the coast, you got a bugle like every few hundred yards.
Because because when ridge can block that whole sound.
The ridge, the trees, forge all the brush, it just deadens that sound. But but the but the wind, we have the same problem. It's just unpredictable. You can't you can't really depend on it.
Yeah, we don't have that problem in Colorado. We do have a lot of wind, Don't get me wrong. But but it's but it's it's more consistent. It's more consistent. You always get those swirly winds, but it's just a little bit more consistent, I believe, versus Idaho where we were, and uh yeah, I.
Might be right.
There's just those fingers and it just it could whip in and through that stuff. It's really weird.
Just doesn't run straight lines. Now, if you can get a big high ridge with not a lot of fingers, it's a big you know, you got a thousand foot elevation change, but it's a big, clean ridge, almost like a hog back ridge. Man. You can get some pretty consistent wins a lot of times on those kind of places. But I found those places that are broken with fingerage after fingeradge after fingerage, the finger again to split again
as they go. Man, it is it's super tough. And I don't know how many times I've been fouled on really giant bulls, like as they're coming in, like they need to just show themselves. There's like almost showing themselves, and then the wind switches and it's a game over.
You know, you say, you say that dirt, but but you and everybody else knows that probably the biggest reason why some of those bulls that there is food, water, and hey man, they can pay attention to their back.
Yep.
Yeah, they ain't gonta worry about things because they could smell it on a quick.
That's why they're in there. Yeah, exactly. Either they don't know.
But those calls worked, they did, they worked.
Yeah, yeah, they were.
Awesome in the field, tested and improved.
So I have a question.
Okay, this is going to be one that might ruffle feathers. Who in the group would you say was the pickiest guy on the call? Development who spent the most time being a butt picker? And like, no, can we change this? No, no, any quite, can we can we change this?
I know who it is, but I want to see I want to see who.
I'll admit it. I think I was pretty I mean I think I was. I was pretty picky.
I don't think it was because there was always because.
I felt bad because we were like, okay, you know, you guys happier with everything, Yep, yep, we're good, and then Jason's like okay, and then you know, a month or two later, it was like, okay, you got sure you're happy, you know, because we're about to make these things finals Like, well, I'll be that jerk. I'm like, actually, can I can we do this?
You know?
Tell me was Jason's house? Yeah, he was picky.
I'm sorry, dude. I couldn't. I couldn't help it. My O c D. I when I put a call in my mouth and it doesn't sound just right, like like I got an ear for this stuff, and if it doesn't sound just right. But the thing is is I get some I put one in my mouth and I blow it for the first few times, sounds so good, and I blow on it a little bit longer, and I'm like, oh, that top ends cutting out on me. So what I found was what I had hoped to get out of these calls. No, I love the Maverick
and I can make Here's the thing I won. I won the men's division with the Maverick. I'd hunted with it for years and years and years. That call I had to I had to kind of back off on my style of calling to get it.
To work, because you blow hard.
I blow hard. Now I can make any of them work, But when I'm hunting or if I'm competing, I don't
want to think about it. I don't want to have to think about toning down the amount of air pressure volume that I usually to make that call work when I'm on the stage especially, but when I'm in the woods, you know, I want to when the time comes when you need to challenge that bull, I need a call that's going to hold up to as much air pressure and volume that I can put against that call to absolutely challenge that bull and just punch him right in the face. And that's and I'd get that point. I
think i'd get it. And I'm like, and then again, it would it would loosen up on me. I need a call that's going to stand up, not only duration wise, for you know, maybe a week I was going through calls. I go through a call a day. If I got into a good, good batch of bulls, and I was doing a lot of calling, and I did almost all the calling and over the years with my partners, so
I go through a lot of calls. But yeah, I would get it to where I was thinking, would think it was right and and I and I was like, God, Jason, Gosh, I got to call this guy. I gotta call Jason again.
He's going to be pissed. This is there's no way that you were pickier than me.
That's what he said.
That's exactly what And that's what I told you, guys.
I'm like, hey, I'm the pickiest guy on planet Earth. So please pick these things apart, make sure you love them. They're everything you want for you period. Well, be selfish, build up for exactly what you want.
Well, all of our styles are so different.
Yeah, well, and you were used to that white am right. I mean, and that that that call worked for you. I mean, you made that call work according to your style really well.
Right, But I was getting to the point where for me, I was in between. I don't even want to toot your horn right now. I was in between my horn. No, I gotta say it, I gotta say it. I don't even want to say it matter, but you just look at it. Well, I was in between, like like, I called in a number of bulls, shoot. I think twenty one was like thirty two bulls with this white amp. But I was blowing it out way more, not because
because of my style of blowing, blow hard aggressive. I'm on it all the time, and I was blowing them out. And then I grabbed the maverick because I was good at the Maverick anyways, not to his horn or anything, but I was. I was good at that.
Are you gonna do it? Are seriously gonna do that? Right now?
I was just waiting for.
Him to put his fingers on my lip and I was gonna bite it. So so anyways, no, I was right in there between it, but his was lasting longer for me. So once I threw a couple of Bibles through the Maverick, I was like, are you kidding me? And then I wanted something that was just like that, but right there in between the like two of them. So if I actually blew the white amp and the Maverick, I feel like it's really close. I think the white amp is gonna break break in a little bit faster
than that Maverick. That Maverick might take me a few few more bugles to get it to sound right, especially for my cow sounds, and then boom. As soon as you did that with the Maverick, it was like through that thing is money. But that white amp was right there. But I was just blowing out the white amp. So I wanted something in between the two for myself.
Basically, if the white amp and the Maverick had a baby the hot.
Yes, it's the Hodge. It fits right there, I believe if it's right there in between, because I can blow the Maverick right now and then blow my call and it's it's It's a difference, definitely a difference. But it wasn't so dramatic that it wasn't like overkill.
It was the baby. Yeah, and Jermaine will say he's coming after the king, right. Everyone knows the Mavericks is the king of diaphragms. And I don't make this up. The statistics, you know, speak for themselves. Phelps wishes his pink diaphragm col could live up to the Maverick. But it's still the king on top of the heat. But Hodge is always said, I'm coming for the Maverick, I'm coming from the King.
Well I can't even say that now. The king is sitting to my left right here.
Tony.
Tony's the king right now, especially on the world stage.
He is the reigning world champion professional elk caller. Hey, can we he got crowned today?
Can we can we eat him around easier to see? I'm telling you, dude.
I was, I'm still really I'm having a hard time like wrapping my head around it, because the caliber of the callers that that I had to go up against.
You had a perfect day. Man. I watched the whole thing. You called against the best of the best and eliminated each one of them. And for the end you had to eliminate. Didn't you have to bugle against both twice? No? Just once? But you beat them all. You beat the best of the best unless of your routine. And every time it was just like money, It was money, It was money. And how do you do that practice? Like? How many how much practice do you put in a week? Oh?
Man, I wish my wife was here. She could tell you better than not kid.
Well, I could say, I can tell you right now. You priory practice way more than me and Eric. I know I've backed off a little bit myself.
Yeah, So people ask me that a lot. How do you get how do you get to the point where you can make the sounds that you make and call as well as you do? And I'll tell you. I so I've got about a forty forty five minute commute every morning, and I grabbed my I'd grab my bugle tube and the whole time between the time I leave my house and time I get to work, I've got a diaphragmut of my mouth. And then when I get
home in the evenings, I'm out in the garage. We're out in the backyard this time of year, come leading up to the contest, especially, I can't countless hours, Dirk. I mean, it was I gotta say, I don't know that the year that I won the men's division, I practiced way more than I did this year. I mean, but that was the first year that I had started competing again after a long time and didn't really know
what to expect. But every day, every day, for even if it was fifteen to twenty minutes, I'd go through my routine. And that's what it takes. I mean, if if you want to if you want to be competitive on that stage against those kind of callers, you have to.
It's the field is so deep.
Compared to what it used to be. I mean, Derek, you and I competed against each other way back, you know, in the early two thousands. Compared to compared to what I remember those contests to be compared to what they are now, it's crazy. It is crazy. But the skill, the talent that these people.
I mean it almost starts at a younger age too, because you see you see you see the pee wee, you see the youth like all.
These you are coming up and they're coming after us.
Please take my spot. I'll go kill the elk you just called them in kind of things and that those those kids are amazing well, and I would say this, it's primarily because of you know, someone like Birk and us, you know, sharing photos and videos of stuff that we do that encourages those kids and they want to get on one of the big stage too, and they're they're just as good.
H You know the other thing, Dirk, I got to say. I was talking to one of the judges after the contest today and uh, they're wanting to know, you know, how I how I could be as consistent as I was and and the cow cals that I were making if it if it hadn't been for me being as picky as I was through this process of developing these calls, I don't think I could have done what I did today because I didn't. I left nothing on the table.
I mean, I went through my routine that I've been practicing for months now, and I put as much air pressure involving behind that call as that call would take and it it didn't break on me.
No, it was no and it.
Was freaking perfect. You know.
Another another kudos that I would like to give to you too, Tony, is you know we're all preparing for you know, the world's or any coming competition for that. You know, matter of fact, you know, we're going through a daily last we're going to you know, we're going to work in the morning. I also have about a forty forty minute commute to work, you know, so I'll practice a little bit in the morning and then on my way home usually hit it, you know, the whole way,
hit it hard. And for you we're listening to ourselves day in and day out. We don't have anybody else to critique us on our routine or the cow calls that we're making, or the different types of bugles that we're making. I mean, we're we're going off you know, YouTube videos or hunts or you know elk being recorded in the field, us trying to mimic them, you know, us practice practicing our own calls and hoping they're authentic enough.
The quality is there so to be able to do what you did today with you being your own you know, your own critic in a sense, is that's amazing to me because when you get on stage and you may have a different panel of judges, or the judges might be the same and then maybe one or two different,
you don't know exactly what they're looking for. So you come into these competitions hoping with the routine or the calls or whatever that you put together, that that that that's gonna that that's going to contend, that's going to be you know, good enough.
Yeah, because you don't know no idea.
It's not like they come out before the contest and say, okay, contestants, we're looking on authenticity, consistency, something that Oxford socks off, you know, and whatever else.
So yeah, you know, you're exactly right.
Yeah, we all prepare and you just hope they're buying what we're selling exactly. And I said, I've said it one hundred times because I've competed in this thing. I didn't compete today, haven't competed for a while, but I've competed a lot over the years, and it is anybody's game, absolutely, because it don't matter how good you sound to you or good how good you sound to your buddies or how good do you sound to the people in the room. If the judges don't like it, they're going to pick
somebody else. But if they do like it, they're going.
To pick it, which makes it tough.
It makes it tough.
It's hard to start.
It's almost like studying for exam, and then they change the questions at the end.
Right, you just don't know, Well, you said it earlier, Derek, that you know it is. It's it's subjective, Yeah, you know. I mean you you don't know the experience of each one of those judges have have had, you know, throughout their careers. And I made this analogy today, you know, I mean, how many people do you know that think they're a really good singer but they're not?
Right?
Yeah, you know. I mean it's kind of like that. I I they experienced that, and and you just don't ever know. I would hate to be a judge. I mean, those guys have got to That's a tough job of any of us sitting back there all day long, listening to all of us two on our horns, and then trying to pick the best out of out of the two that went.
I would say this, it's very hard when you get to like the top eight, top eight in men's division, women's division, if women, if women had eight this year, I'm just saying, hypothet cool reasons if all of them had top eight. Once you get to like the top eight, it's tough.
Man, and then you narrow you narrow it down to the last four, You narrow it down to the last two. Like they're talking to some of the judgement, they all take notes right as as you go through your performance, and they taking notes. And if you if you're read breaks just a little bit, they're gonna write that down. And if and if if you make something that's just
that they don't like, they write it down. And if it's that so close, well they look at the notes like, well tip for tat, this guy had fewer marks by their name, so I'm gonna pick them.
Well, I mean yeah, I mean for example, like I knew when I broke over on that lip ball, I was like, it's done. I said, I'm listening. This dude's just as good as me. I said, I said, I'm doing And it was a four to three match. That does an example, Well, I got hey, man, his lip ball broke over, and.
When you do that, you're like, man, I hope they didn't catch that, man?
Were they sleeping?
So I don't know if our listeners know what actually goes into building a call, a custom call, or a signature call. So whenever I did it, and you guys probably had a similar experience, Jason Phelips built I don't know how many twenty thirty calls he made mine with all these different latexes because he knew I kind of knew what I wanted, but I didn't really know what I wanted. So he built like thin late text, he
built thick light text, he built medium light text. Then he did put different colors of those same thickness as of late text. Then he had different stretches of the different stretches within each of those categories.
You might have been worse than Tonys might have been the same as yours, Dick.
It was. It was hard, and I would I just sat out at the table. I pick one up and I blow it, and I had a yes pile and a no pile, Yep, nope, yep nope, and I go back through it and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go all the way through all the yeses, and when I get through the yes is to where I can whittle it down. Now I have some very specific things I
have to get out of this call. There's there's a few little different nuanced bugles I like, and it has to have to It has to make the right sound at the right time during the bugle, whether it's the drop off, like you hit that high note and then you drop off back to the low. Some of those they'll cut out or buzz on you or you know so. And then some latexes, different colors of latex and the same thickness would would not be as articulate as others,
and some would be too articulate. I'm like, that's way too much, too much articulation. I want the one that's just just right, like you said, I don't want to have to think about it. I want to put this in here and blow it like I blow it, and it's going to do everything. And after I don't know, I went through that first round and I'm like, all right, this is kind of what I like. So then you had to send me a whole bunch more of those similar until we landed on the map.
It's not it's not just you know, oh it's just latex and aluminum powlet plate. It's like, no, it's way more than that.
Well, in the in the thing that I learned through this process because I was so picky, you can get a batch of latex that's at a certain thickness supposedly, and it can vary in that batch.
Yeah, it can be pleasure minded exactly.
So I think that's where you know, the yes and nopile come comes from. Is that you. And there's also the human element, right, I mean you've got to you've got a device that will measure you know, the stretch, the side stretch. But you know, each of us, I think, have a little bit of you know, different nuances or or backtension that we like based on our style, and
you can't measure that. So it's it's like all by feel or by sight, and it's hard to replicate that perfectly every time, right, you know, So it there was I mean I learned a lot through this process. I'm still learning, uh as a result of it. But you know it's uh, you're right. I mean it really does take a lot of effort and time to go through all those calls and find the one that is just it's perfect for you and and and Derek, I mean
the Maverick. Nobody blows a Maverick like you do, and and it and there's a reason for that.
Well, I don't know. I've heard a couple of guys in this.
Well I will say this. I would say this is this is you know, you get a group of like minded people, like like I said, that love to hunt elk. We love to hunt elk more than we'd love to be on stage. I mean, that's my personal opinion, but I think you know I would share that with the rest of the group here. But what I will say is this is, Uh, when we build these calls, we build these calls to perform, not on stage really, you know, my my, that's like the back end, that's the fun
and part of it. During the summertime, when we're kind of getting ready for a hunting season, we build these calls to call an elk and perform when you need to perform. And I know that's what Dirk did when he was building the Maverick. But I will say this is that they would never longer call him king because when I built mine, I built mine a little bit better than Dirk's.
Is that right?
Well, well, you know what, you know what, but hey, all jokes to the side though, is he's got way more buys and kills and stuff with his So I
really shouldn't, I should dive down a little bit. But I do think if you're looking for a new change, All American series is right in the house house, because you might be one of us that fits in between the original signature series, because Phelps is a great call, Derek's is a great call, and Charlie's is a great call, and I think we kind of I think us three are like even between some of all those.
Yeah, well I think you know, I've blown uh probably every call that's been on the market and and even some currently. The thing that that steered me towards the ELPs calls was the consistency that was getting out of those calls. And and so I think anybody that picks up these calls, whether it's a Maverick or one of these new All American series, when they find the call that fits their style of calling, they can be pretty sure that that they're going to get a call every time.
And the life and the life that you'll get out of the read, you know, when I first did. I I'm newer to the newer to the archery scene, you know, I've been doing it my fifth season, and you know, calling for about you know, four or five years or so, started using you know, the Phelps reads at the beginning, you know, and I tried some I tried some other calls, and I blow them out, I mean real, real quick. But with the consistency and the life that I got, and how easy the reads were for me as a
newer caller to use. I mean, have I haven't gone any you know, with any other calls, you know, since I mean, that's what that's what made you know, made me step upon love those calls so much.
Well, and even even the design that's gone into the tubes, I mean, I don't I cannot put my diaphragm on my mouth and use another tube and make the same sounds that I get out of out of the Phelps tubes. I'm still talking a lot about the diaphragms, but that's just one that's just one tool that you need. And those tubes, I mean, the back person you get out of them. I can articulate these calls with with those tubes. So much better than I can any other tube that I've ever tried.
It's yeah, I totally agree. You know, we we sit here, we're talking about the consistency of of our our calls and you know how you guys did today, And honestly, it's you know, it's all development and it comes from like mine, people working together to develop some of these calls, right to come up with some of these calls, because well, we're ultimately and you know, if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Ultimately, at the very end of the day, you gotta tag
in your pocket. You're trying to fill your tag. And what we're trying to do is cut that, cut that learning curve down for you guys. We're sitting here blowing that World Championships, Tony successful, Pat Latrell successful, his so of the Hunter is successful. But what was consistent today on stage was I don't know why.
Yeah, like minded.
People that that hunt, that hunt and get out there and hear these animals and that could make these same sounds with these same calls. And uh yeah, it takes practice, no doubt about it.
It takes practice.
You you have to hammer it down and you have to practice. And uh with Consistent practice comes consistent results.
If you're going to arch your hunt, you're gonna it's gonna take whether you're shooting your bow, whether you're calling. It takes practice and you got to put the time in.
That's like I say that, it's like everybody you knows, like, hey, I have you shot your boat? I have you shot your bow today? You know what I've been saying, You got your call today?
Yeah?
You called today.
I'm shooting.
You know, I'm shooting a bow pretty good?
Right?
Right?
You can't call?
Are you got fifty that done? You know you're missing a huge element to it, right.
I mean you don't have.
To be the best caller, but it's like, you know, get some basic you know, some basic calls, you know, some location location big or whatever, some cow calls. You know, just get those under your belt and I don't make a huge, huge world of difference, but it does take some call on and not just shooting narrow.
You're right you right now.
Earlier I asked a question, and who is the pickiest? And it's funny because Eric pointed himself and you felt like you're pretty picky on your call? Now your call I was pleasantly surprised. It was different, way different. It's a little bit lighter late text than a Maverick and a little tight, little tight stretch. But man, you blow that thing. Great.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's a it's a great it's a great call. I wanted a call that would be as universal as possible for anybody who would pick it
up and use it along with myself. You know, I want to be able to put a diaphragm in it and almost have it be effortless in a sense, you know, because sometimes you know, you can have ten different calls, or you know, before I had my own call, you maybe you know, grab ten calls to a season or whatever, you know, and you you try the different calls or whatever, and you know you had add the human element into it, but you might have four or five. I'm like, oh,
that's a good one. I thought, that's a that's another good one. You start stacking them, you know, in your holder, like one, two, three, four, five, you know. And so I wanted something that was going to be as effortless as possible and easy to use, not just for myself but anybody who were to pick it up and use
it as well. But no, it turned out great. I am huge fan of the Maverick, so I you know, I wanted something very you know, similar, similar to the Maverick, but just with a little bit of a tighter stretch on it, because you know, I moved quite a bit of air, you know, across you know, across the diaphragm too, So I thought that would be a good combination for.
As hard as you blow after blowing your your read as hard as you blow, I'm like, how does he not correct that over? Like?
It fits your style of cone like, it's just perfect for him, It's perfect for because if I blew as hard as I think you blow.
Over that call, it'd break.
Over for me.
Well, I think, I think, uh, part of what makes that that call break over sometimes too, in addition to the amount of air that you put across that call, is where you've got that die from in your mouth. Yeah, you know, because for me, I probably run my call back further than most people do, and you know, if I had that call further forward, it wouldn't work for me. So again, it's just everybody's so different. Their palettes are different, their style of calling is different. You have to find
that one call and Eric, you did that? Man? You make that call sound really good.
Shoot, I thought they called my mouth and I sound almost sound like a note too.
Well, when Phelps asked me, He's like, what are we going to call these calls? And I'm like, Team America, f yeah, you know, well we can't go down that route. America like how about the all American? Three pack? All American? Because you look at look look at these three men. I'm pleasure to spend some time with and this weekend, you guys are you guys? They're epitome of America. You know, we got Eric. If you guys haven't seen Eric, how tall are you?
Six six sixty six.
He's a large American played football at University University of Washington. He works for the Army Corps of Engineers at a damn he you know, America, we got Tony Gilbertson. Tony has worked for public Works getting the water to us right water and sewage that's.
Right for a long time.
How long? Over thirty years?
Thirty years. This man's been getting clean water and getting rid of our sewage for thirty years, doing things right. He got Hodge. He's been coaching Olympic wrestlers in the army for how long? Twenty one twenty one years. I'm like, I just looked at you guys. I'm like, you guys are just They're just all American guys. So if you look at the packaging, you're gonna see the packaging it completely looks nothing like the rest of our Felps packaging other than you'll see our Filps logo on it, but
you see stars and stripes. Each diaphragm has stars and stripes on it. Well, I kind of be prouder of the calls you guys built. And I've been I've been editing this video, working on it. You know, I've been working on for a while. I've been working my tail off putting this thing together and trying to build this story out and to best express what you guys did.
And you guys talked a little bit about how you guys connected and you gelled and you worked together and you as I'm calling through this, all this content, we've got like sixteen or seventeen days and two cameras, and I got so much content I'm calming through. But all of it is like you guys respectfully listening to each other, making game plans, like, what do you think? What do you think? Yeah, yeah, you know, making these these game plans as a team. It was really it was really
cool to see. You don't always see that. It's not easy. Like I've always said, you can spend ten days in the mountains with somebody you considered a friend and you may hate them at the end of that ten days. It will expose personalities, it will expose desires, it will expose expectations, it will expose the truth. It will drag that truth out of people, good or bad. And you guys were out there for more than like more than that. You guys were out there for a while. And at
the end, how do you feel about it? Do you guys? Are you guys like I don't know Jermlane he's okay. And Er he's all right, But I don't know. I fun hunting with him? Again, tell me coming out of this, what do you guys think?
No, it was, it was, It was good. I definitely, I definitely enjoyed my time with these guys. I really really enjoyed it because, like I said, I got to spend quality time with them out in the woods, you know, not just at the different events or you know, competitions, but you know, got to share a campfire with these guys, you know, got up at four am in the morning, you know with these guys, made breakfast, you know, dropped you know, in and out of canyons you know with
these guys, and uh, we learned. We learned a lot, you know, a lot of new country that I had never seen or never hunted. So there was a lot of good lessons taken away of maybe some things that we would change and do differently, but I mean, overall, it was a fantastic experience. I really enjoyed it.
So yeah, I agree percent. I would definitely hunt with with either one of you guys again, hopefully both yea,
either one or both. Absolutely, it's uh, you know you said it, Derek, when you when you when you said that, you know you can you can be friends, but you go out and spend ten days or more or whatever, even a week in the woods with people, and if you if you can't come together and agree on things and and give each other cut, cut each other some slack, give each you know, give it, give each other some grace and just say, you know what, I know, this
is how I'm used to hunting. But I'm gonna hunt the way Jermaine wants to hunt today, where I'm gonna haveht the way that Eric wants to not today. And you know, I'm I'm the kind of guy that I just love being out there. I don't you know, I enjoy I enjoy being in the elk woods. I enjoy hearing elk bugles. I enjoy the camaraderie. Yes, I enjoy it when we're successful. But I'll tell you, you know a lot of people put way too much weight on notch in that tag to consider the hunt to be successful.
And I mean, like I said, I knew you guys for a couple of years, and that couple of years was just meeting each other at the at the World's you know, it's been in a couple of days with you guys. Ah. You know, you you learn more about people when you're out in the woods and you're working together as a team to accomplish a goal. And and you know, we did that and we did it well.
And yes, there's probably some things that looking back on it, we'd probably do different, but that's you know, it's hunting.
That's how you grow, right, absolutely absolutely, what do.
You think your man, Well, these guys, these guys were you don't really know. You don't know until you go. I always keep this model, is it ill cool to hire? Well, you ain't gonna know unless you go, and you gotta try it out right, And it's like any food right that don't look that good and then taste it and you like that was amazing. My point is is that is I already knew these guys for a couple of years. My philosophy was is I'm not gonna enforce them to
hunt like me. Let's work together, let's kind of figure this all out. And it started yelling right away. I was like, let's go here, let's go here, let's split up, let's do this. And we had counts of encounters, some of the best, some of the worst. Who cares. But at the same time you're learning, you're learning each other, and dude, it was it was eye opener because my styles, you guys, both of y'all got know now my styles
super progressive, superrogressive, go down I don't care. But then when you get up there north of the whole country, and like Tony told me one day, when the man, I ain't going down there and they would be with me down there, and I was like, I ain't going down there either.
Well it was because you learn.
It was because it was getting on into the evening. It's back in their ways. And what happened. We start chasing bugles. I'm thinking, okay, we'll do it. Jermaine wants to go off these bulls. We'll do it. We get down this mountain, the trail on ONEX disappears.
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
We continue down and pretty soon we're looking down over this cliff over after we slid down our on our butts for I don't know how many Yeah, I mean it was that was the sketchy part that was talking about.
There was no hiking. It was sliding and grabbing and it's like, okay, I'm gonna slide on my butt another twenty yards this next tree up. I catch it and then is like, I'm gonna go He said, you guys hang out here. We're like, okay, I'm gonna go down and check and see, you know, see what we got, because you know, you can kind of tell it cliff out.
Down there, he goes.
He goes, I'm I'm gonna go down there. I'm gonna see see what it looks like. Okay, we'll hang out here. And you see Jermaine looking over like this, you know, left right, and you hear him turn his head. He goes, don't go left. I go okay, copy that, don't go left, go right, push right. So you know, we pushed right, and we got down to where we were cliffed out, and so I told the you know, hang out here. I'm gonna see I'm gonna see if we can get
down you know, right here. And so I I went down to the right and I'd found kind of I mean a path, I mean the easiest way down, but we basically slid on our butts. But rest of the way down to the creek that it was sketchy. Yeah.
And going up the other side, oh man, Yeah, that was yds of life, digging your toes into the into the hillside and grabbing onbing on branches just to pull yourself up.
It was.
It was not pulling each other back onto the trail.
Got back to the trail right at about dark.
Yep, you sure did wolves howling in the background.
Yep.
Now, I will say after you guys got back and kind of the dust had settled and maybe some of the pain had gone away. Germaine text music. Hey listen, next time, I'll pick the state and the area.
I believe it.
I believe it.
You like the spot I picked out for you?
Hey? Yeah, I take it exactly that. Hey, how about I picked the station.
You know how many people said to me when they asked where I went hunting in Idaho? Up in North Idoo? You know what the answer was? Another response, why did you do that?
Well? Those are the only tags available.
So I'm going to tell you this. I left there. We got done with our hunt. Me and Tony had gassed up at the last the gas station, and we kind of went down maybe four or five hours, and them kind of splip parts you was going down to the heroes a Lifetime with Elk one one and stuff like that.
So so I was like, all.
Right, I'm thinking the whole way home, I'm like, man, let'sh what went wrong? What went right? Kind of thing? And I'm like, man, really, nothing really went wrong. We probably could have stayed up in a higher country after some of those other bulls that we were after, and that might have been like like the icing on the cake. But to be honestly, like you really don't know, you
really don't know. It's like calling, right, and and going back on some of the stuff that that we're kind of talking about earlier, is yeah, you don't have to be a Tony or Eric or Jermaine had or Dirt Durham to calling bulls because it's in many stories where you can sit down and talk with me. I'll tell you stories that I had bulls. I called it that
didn't sound like bulls. And just because you know, we we been through the trials and tributes of you know, our our first hunt together, not the last, our first hunt together. It's it's it's growing pains and you really have to you know, hash out some of this with you your hunting partners. But what I will tell you is this cal call. Can you at least cal call? So if you got a partner that helps you cal call or something to contribute your successful it goes way
up way. It's dramatic, that's right.
There's a difference between calling, you know, calling and competitions. Yeah, trying to figure out what the judge is like, I mean, there's been I messed up bugles and I've had bulls eat that up. Like, oh man, who is this guy. I like that.
You know.
Yeah, I had a couple of conversations today about the same stuff. I'm like, he was telling me it's doing. I'm like, hey, you was huthing by yourself, won't you. This is what you did kind of wrong. So you know, honestly, we went through this hunt in Idaho and it was fantastic. Honestly. The only thing that I would probably do different is I probably have a e bike, which I got. What's
I got now, But I didn't have the end. I might have had a dirt bike with me because them joggers, man, they they traveled from you know, you got a highk in three miles or something like that. So stuff like that.
Well, guys, I can't tell you how much I appreciate coming on the podcast tonight. Had a great time catching up this weekend. I can't wait to release this film and share it with everybody. I don't know what I'm going to call it. We're gonna call it America. We're gonna call it all American film, like super super Friends. I don't know. I'm thinking about like maybe you guys could like put on some like superhero outfits. We'll get
some do some photography done, maybe at least photoshop it. Like, you've got to figure out who what superhero you want to be? Germane could be the Flash, Uh, Eric could be the Hull. What would you want to be?
Captain America?
Captain America, Captain America. Yeah, anyway, I don't know what the I don't know what the thumbnail is going to be. I don't know what the title is going to be. But I can't wait to share it with you guys. And I can't wait to share these calls with you guys. I think you're gonna like them. I think they're going to be a big hit and uh yeah, who knows. But thanks, thanks a lot for coming on tonight.
Well, thank you, Derek, thanks for having us.
Thanksgi