Ep. 86: Elk Scouting, Bow Setups, and Shot Placement with Jason and Dirk

So now we're going to jump right into it, so ELK Centric today. The first question comes in in areas where you don't have a chance to hunt. How do you scout for elk and identify high probability areas before the season begins? You know, we can We can all sit and I think me and you, Dirk have had the fortune to like we know what to look for at some point, right, So I think with high confidence we can say, all right, I can look at a map and I'm pretty confident this area has everything we

think we need. But let's say there are times where I get surprised or the elk are actually in spots where I don't expect them. But how do you go about identifying high probability areas before the season never begins, if you don't get to have feet on the ground.

if impossible. So I'm gonna look for those dark portions, which is going to look like National forest maybe State endowment lands, and then kind of zoom in from there. And what I'm looking for is an area that has a few roads so I can get around and access some of those areas. If this is a if this is not going to be a backpack hunt, I want to have enough roads to where I can access each portion of the mountain range. But I don't want there to just be roads everywhere where certain areas. You know

that that's the case. You know, some of the more front country will have logging roads everywhere in some of those places will have gates on those roads which you're not supposed to take motor vehicles behind, or there's a limitation on size of the motor vehicle, maybe just ATVs and dirt bikes or something. But you know, some of those places, don't overlook them because they they could be non motorized and you could walk in and have a

fantastic all hunt. You know, because a lot of times around logging areas, there's a lot of excellent habitat, you know, a lot of feed. There's probably some older regrowth somewhere the elko want to hold up in, So don't overlook those kind of places. But typically I'm kind of looking for more of a mountainous maybe that back country type

looking stuff, and more of the national forest. So I'm looking for large drainages that have no roads in them, you know, in a large draine, so from top to bottom, so from the very start of the drainage where the first little creek seeps out of the hillside, and as it gets bigger and then it outlets and to make let's say a river or or out into the front country, you know, ten miles. If it's a ten mile drainage, there's a pretty good bet there's some really good elk

in there, really good bowls in there, mature bowls. It seems like some of the smaller drainages, depending on where you're at, may not have quite as many or maybe the quite a caliber of elk in it. Some of the some of that bigger country will. So that's kind of the kind of the places I'm going to start looking. And within those places, I want to I want to see all aspects of habitat. I want to see good

heavy cover on north faces. I want to see on the south face and eastern facing and western facing slopes. You know, some good good feed, whether that's grass, whether that's brush fields, just depending on on the state, there's just got to have everything. There's got to be, you know, creeks, there's got to be little places for the elk to get food, water, shelter. That's what I'm looking for.

I come from western Washington, and I typically don't hunt Western Washington as routinely as I used to do, and so I'm a lot of these areas, you know, a day's drive away, a day's plus drive away, and so I rely on my my online scouting, you know, whether it's Google Earth, whether it's on x maps, you know, on ex hunts on my computer one thing, and I don't necessarily need to dive in there, and I'm not doing it for the idea that to dive in there, but it kind of piggybacks on your idea on like

roadless drainages, is I do turn on the backcountry feature, like the roadless feature within on EX I just want to know, like where is the furthest away from the road you can get and like I said, I'm not jumping right to that spot, but then I will use that and start to look like within that area kind of work my way back to the road, Like all right, where can I get from like two to four to five miles? And then within that ribon I come from western Washington, where uh it is if you haven't walked

through our reprod our undergrowth brush, this coastal jungle. Like, I honestly look for places without all kinds of brush. Right, It's just my personal preference, and I don't want to go put myself in the middle of a jungle. I don't enjoy hunting, and it just a completely brush stricken area. Now you will find yourself in those, you know, I try to stay away from like never ending mountain alder patches. But similar to Dirk, I'm looking for those those keys.

I like to have heavy timber on the north face if if I deal, but especially you know Washington or areas where there's lots of water, they don't always need to go to the north face, or if the temperatures aren't getting high enough, they'll bet on a south face. So I'm I do want that north timber, but it's

not an absolute requirement. I want to be able to zoom in and see that the upper above tree line or areas that are avalanche shoots like have some trails through them that the elker actively using the area or animals of some sort are there, and the food sources there. And if I take it to the next level, like can I go toggle the date of that picture back

to September, you know, August? Can I can I start to see if animals are using that during our hunting seasons, and then I kind of use all of that to balance. I want some water sources around, whether it's a creek or a river in the bottom or a small pond or a lake. I need to have that water. And then as you're looking at this, you're you're always remembering that time of September at least, or you know, if it's November, like elker looking for an area to recoup,

you know, if it's rifle season. But during September, those elk are looking to recreate and stay alive, so they need to have some escapement and they need to be able to like live with a heard a herd of you know, cows or however many cows are with them. My personal preference is to break an area down. I want a little bit of everything. I don't want like a steep slope for three thousand feet down to the creek.

I don't want it to be completely flat the whole way. Now, don't get me wrong, you can find elk in both of those places. But areas that I feel like I've got a higher percentage of knowing there's gonna be olk there, I want it to be broken up country. I want big pockets of timber that have an avalanche shoot through it and just uphill like there's some there's some alpine, and then if they were to cross that ridge, they're

gonna get into some north timber. So I'm looking for like these these very specific almost like two perfect elk spots. But that's just where I found that that I have more of a chance of finding elk there at least to start, and then I can branch out from there,

like how far will that sign take me? And that's you know, we could probably have an whole episode on this jerk, like feet on the ground, like being able to read the sign when you get to these spots, like, oh, there's a lot of sign here, but there's also a lot of sign that goes three miles down the ridge into nothing but dark timber. Right now, as an elk hunter, I'm more educated. I'm like, what's okay to go down

in here? We can spend more time down in here. So, yeah, you pair all of these things I'm looking for make it a little bit harder to get to two, three, four miles in And for me, that's been a recipe that just seems to hold elk.

places where I've found elk before. So let's say there's a really steep ridge and then all of a sudden it kind of goes up steep and then it hits like a bench. It kind of the ridge itself, benches off, and maybe a little a small saddle or makes a knob, you know, on those knobs. Elk like to hang out on those saddles. They like to hang out and little benches.

So I'm looking for those kind of features. And let's say you did see it like a brushfield or a meadow or a high grassy spot and then there's you know, some big dark timber and then it kind of drops down and then it goes up onto a little ridge and you just like picture where or the elk would bed and then where they would feed in the area in between. And I kind of look at that stuff and yep, yeah, and go ahead.

distinct changes in terrain, right if we wanted to. Just so, like when I get to an area and I want to know if there's elk there, like I will run a ridge down if there's a pass or depression in the ridge line that's maybe a two or three hundred

foot drop compared to the normal. You know, you look out along the horizon, you got a ridge that looks pretty straight, but in the middle you see a depression, Like that is a spot I'm gonna go check, like if there are elk in the area, I'm gonna be very confident that they're using that area or that zone, that spot to transfer from one ridge to another or

that bedding area. Like I'm gonna if I'm gonna quickly reduce this area to where if there's even elk there, like I'm to go hit that bench and check for sign, you know, And so very quickly I made a determination like I'm pulling the plug or anchor on here, or I'm going to invest some more time.

You want to get granular with it. So you're looking at those those top ole lines, and you have to be very keyed in, like and if you've been hunting for a while, then you start associating your top ole lines that you're seeing in the field versus where you're standing on the ground. And sometimes there's some little benches there,

you know, nor more than fifty sixty yards wide. They don't show up real well on a topo map, but a lot of times those are just really great spots where elk want to live the bed or travel through. So learning to identify those on your top ball lines is critical. I mean, it will really help you a lot.

or natural springs or whatever. And like when we go to New Mexico, on the unit we're going to hunt, I go through and I mark every single tank with an icon with a with a place mark on my on X. The reason why is it's super easy to look at and find and look at tanks really quick. If you kind of zoom in and kind of scroll around, you can find them if you're just kind of looking

for them. But if you go pre hunt and you mark every single tank, it's very easy to jump from tank to tank to tank to tank and connect to connect the dots of where elk are going to be and down there it's water is key, so you really want to key in on where the water is. And and so I mark mark all the tanks in one color. And then once we get their boots on the ground and we find that there's water in them, because sometimes they'll be they'll they'll be dry as a bone, and

sometimes that they'll have water in them. So I will mark the ones that have actually have water in them and the ones that don't with two different colors. That way, I don't waste time looking as I'm looking at my map again, like if we get stumped, like oh dangn what are we going to do today, I don't see this tank over here and think, oh we should go check it out. Oh yeah, that's that one that's dead, you know, after you look at like, you know, thirty

different tanks. It's it's it's nice to be able to quickly assess and understand where to go.

the mountainous States. A lot of times they're going to feed in bed within a half mile, you know, max, maybe three quarters of a mile, as long as nothing disrupts them. These elk in New Mexico Arizona are moving large, large distances because what happens is you got sometimes multiple herds oftentimes multiple herds come to that water, big rutfest at night, and then they all turn and go different directions in the morning, and a lot of times those treks are like I say, three four five miles.

gonna jump in. It's about that time everybody should be shooting their bows. Not that I'm the I'm the most diligent at getting everything set up. But uh, you know a lot of a lot of people, you know, a white tail set up versus a you know, a small game set up versus all right, we're what I consider we're stepping up to big game, like true big game, big bones, aero stopping power. Walk through your bow and arrow set up kind of how you determine what you're

gonna shoot. Is there a speed you're you know, searching for, is there a weight you're searching for? And kind of then what your broadhead's gonna be. Just just that whole decision tree before you head out on an el cut.

do archers and thought processes. And the problem about super fast arrows is they're really hard to tune, and you really want your optimum. You know, you want that arrow to be flying perfectly straight. You don't want it to be fish tailing, you don't want to be purposing. You want it to be super straight. So I want my bow these days to be about sixty sixty five pounds. And why I want it to be that much is I want to be able to pull back and hole

on a bowl that locks up. Let's say he's coming in and then hesitates and I have to hold that bow for two minutes. Well, I can draw and shoot a seventy pound bow just fine. And there's I think it's kind of gotten a trendy again to have an eighty pound bow. There's a lot of guys with big muscles these days that like to pull an eighty pound bow. But I'm here to tell you I'm more concerned about being able to hold my bow back and then still

still make a great shot. So now over to the speed thing again I've found And then a lot of other people will kind of say, if you're shooting your your arrows faster than that two hundred and eighty two hundred ninety feet per second, they get really hard to tune in your bow, especially fixed heads, so I'm not really trying to shoot, you know, like a vaporizer fast type of bow. I want to be able to shoot comfortably, hold my bow a long time, and still maintain that

that feet per second. Now I'm blessed with a longer draw length than then maybe let's say a guy with a twenty six inch draw link. Now, those guys are probably gonna have to hit those higher poundage draws and really work on you know, their stamina holding a long time. But that's what's important to me on that.

big bones, we should be fine. You know, with with the day's equipment and efficiency of the bows and the design of most of these fixed blade broadheads, it's like, I feel like you're gonna be fine. Like I've been very impressed that some of the arrows that you know, some ladies have zipped through bowls, and it's like, well, fifty two pounds and a four hundred and some odd grain arrow can do that, Like why do I need to be you know, faster and heavier and all these other things right?

how you judge yardage. So it's just so I recognize that. And and there again we want to talk about arrows and arrow weight. You know, there's it's kind of trendy in some groups to shoot a you know, six hundred, seven hundred grant arrow right now, you know, the one that's going to shoot through a tree and still kill

the elk. But whenever you have an arrow that that heavy, your pin gap for Western hunting is going to be enormous unless you want to dial, and then you're gonna run out of you know, room to dial on your on your moveable site, you know, rather quickly compared to like a standard let's say four hundred and fifty to five hundred grain arrow. So I go with about a four hundred and fifty grand arrow. I've shot down to

four hundred grades. Back before I even knew to weigh my arrows, you know, it wasn't super trendy to measure your foc front of center weight and or the overall all. Wait, I'm just like, oh, yeah, this is a good one hundred grain broadhead. I got a good sturdy arrow, and I'm just gonna go ahead and shoot this thing. And I shot a ton of elk with it that passed throughs No real issues, major issues unless I hit like a scapular or something. Now I'm shooting fifty grains heavier.

Still no problems. But and what I like about that is I still have a pretty good pin gap. It's not super tight to where you get in a pickle and in a rush situation it's like, oh dangn my pins are so close together, what do I do? Or it's hard to focus on one pin. But they're far enough apart to where they're easy to focus on. And if you misjudge artist by five yards, it's going to be a five to six inch inch shot high or shot low versus a miss or a bad hit.

draw length. You know, I shoot a seventy pound bow maxed out, so it's somewhere between seventy to seventy two pounds. You know, most of my arrows end up being very heavy in that five forty to five sixty range. But I really just I don't care where it lands as long as my bow ends up shooting at that too eighty five. And then you know, I'm gonna agree with Dirk, like draw time will kill way more elk than the extra five pounds will or the extra ten pounds It

always hasn't always will. And I think, you know, it sounds cool when you're when you're telling somebody you shoot an eighty three pound bow or that you you know, you got this monster set up, And I'm like, yeah, but that will not kill you any additional elk. Then sixty five or sixty pound bow for most males, you know, being able to draw drawwights and everything else considered like that doesn't kill the elk for you, But me being able to hold that bow more comfortably for another twenty

or thirty seconds will kill me some elk. So I'm in that same boat, Like you know, I was there one day when I was young and dumb, you know, shooting eighty six pound bows, trying to get these five hundred and sixty grand arrows going, you know, three fifteen or whatever. It was just doing dumb stuff and that bow shot great and I finally did get it tuned. But in the end, it wouldn't have killed an elk any better than the current setup I'm shooting. So that's

how I approach it. I we didn't touch on fixed blade versus you know, there are some good expandables. I just cannot wrap my head around, like knowing that there is a slight percentage or any percentage that something could fail. And so in my mind, like that solid broadhead is you know, or fixed blade broadhead is going to always be what it needs to be. Just a little peace of mind, Like I say, I think most mechanicals nowadays are you know, got a pretty good success rate on

opening and doing what they're they're supposed to do. But for me, I've still only shot you know, fixed blade you know, iron wheels oak the last few years. You know, prior to that, I was using some slick trick biper tricks that that I had some good success with. I've heard stories that maybe some you know, qualities you know, went downhill or something since then, But no, I think you just need to be confident in your setup and have confidence that you're gonna be able to put your arrow.

You know, one thing we didn't even talk about is how accurate we can shoot these bows. Like we always joke our good buddy Corey Miller, he's like, all these guys want to like buy their way to like better groupings, and he's like, you're never gonna out. You know, you're not gonna shoot your bow any better because of this five hundred dollars rest or this five hundred dollars site or these you know, four hundred dollars arrows. He's like,

it's you need to work on yourself. And so that's another thing, like as long as you get good at shooting and are confident your setup, like that goes a long ways than all these other decisions, you know, arrowweight and broadheads. Get good at shooting your bow, and it'll it'll fix a lot of these things.

an anecdotal story from last fall. It's calling in this bowl from some private property over onto the public and we're kind of slow playing this thing, and we kind of made quiet calls and kind of faded away, like we walked off, but we didn't go very far, and we kind of set down and it was kind of a steep hill side, so I had to kind of sit with our back towards where the bowl was kind of and we sat there for like forty five minutes, and then finally that bull came in. Well, I had

to I had to draw. I had to get up from a sitting position. I had to like slowly stand and draw my bow all at the kind of same time and then get turned to where I could shoot. I will promise you I couldn't have done that with a eighty pound bow. I probably would have struggled this seventy but beings that I was shooting like a sixty five pound bow. I was able to draw. I was able to do it in a smooth motion free you know, it's not discernible to the bowl, and I got drawn

on him. Now, my yardage judging was another story.

This elk walks in on the same exact trail that he is, right, And I think during the video, when you watch it, you're so fixated on the elk you don't realize what he's doing until you want at the second or third time. But Russ is a pretty strong guy. But this also would go over to you're shooting a bow that you can do this with. He wouldn't have killed this bow bowl if he had to draw his bow like you see most people, like ninety percent of people draw their bow. You know, they give it a

big yank Ara goes to this guy. Russ literally like draws this bow inch by inch as slow as he can pull this bow back, and next thing you know that the bull gets shot and you were watching it the whole time. He didn't realize that Russ had got his bow drawn back because he moved so slowly and so methodically that you would have never known that that bow was ever drawn.

to to capitalize on opportunities. But it was just one of those things again, like he had you know, his rest didn't make any noise, he was able to draw his all these things he had dialed in to give him that opportunity on a great bowl there, And it just makes you think like you need to need to pay attention to all that stuff and maybe not shoot an eighty five pound bow if you don't have to.

I can just draw my bow back. And there are times you want to yank your bull back bow back. Let's say bull's kind of running in. You're like, yeah, you want to might want to rank, yank at it, yank it back at the right time. But most of the time you want that thing to be smooth and and no movements discernible.

you work out all the time. Like even when I was going to the gym all the time, it was still something different about holding the bow almost like that negative resistance, like you're just trying to hold it back. And so I'll do you know, I'll set my my time around my watch and try to do a minute and a half hold and see if I can still make a good shot or whether it would be a

bad shot. And so season gets closer, you start to work on those, you know, endurance type type situations as you're out there shooting, just see see what your time is. And by working on it, you get better at it. You you get more comfortable, you get less shaky, you can extend that time, and like I say, those are the things that are gonna help you kill more elk than than the additional poundage.

of recovering that bowl? And then if you can go into like shot angles, shot distances, and kind of what you're comfortable with and what you're looking for before, like dirt terms comfortable in this situation, I'm gonna pull the trigger here.

and it's day seven of your hunt. You hydrateed. You just hauled ass up this hillside, this steep hill side, you know, one hundred and fifty two hundred feet straight up vertical, and you you're breathing hard, your heart's pounding, you have a pack on your back, and there's the bowl. I figure, let's say I normally want to shoot at

fifty yards. That's maybe that's kind of where I draw the line personally, But at that point right there, I may cut that to thirty or forty yards, because you know, you pull your bow back, man, you're you're on a steep hill side. Everything is not easy. Your bow form is probably not the best, just because the angle that the elk is above you or below your, whatever the case might be. Everything is not perfect, and that you have to kind of be real about it, be like, well,

if this is my backyard, I drill that sucker. But now that it's not, I'm going to wait for the for the for the best opportunity that and then that kind of goes with that training. You were talking about holding your bow for a long time. You might even do some like wind sprints back and forth to your target and get out of breath. Then do your bolt bow hoold, but make sure you have your pack on and stuff. And this is on flat ground in your backyard.

You know, raise your raise your your heart rate, get out of breath, shoot in a from a precarious uh situation, and you're gonna You're gonna see it's gonna cut your your your lethal distance down quite a bit. So acknowledging that and understanding that is how you can perform ethical shots. Like everybody has their own ethics, right, but I think it's I think everyone can agree that we want to take a shot that that's gonna end with a uh,

mortally wounded animal that's gonna die quickly and humanely. So understanding your capabilities, like truly understanding them is important.

or whatever it may be. It may not be a squeak or that something like binds you up, or your harness is really close to catching your string, you know, if your form's off. You know, all of these things like you need to test that out and and confirm that it's going to be okay. You know. One thing that I used to have an issue with is when I used to use a wrist rocket, you know, back

in the day, is I would anchor under my ear. Well, if it was an early morning hunt, I would forget that I had a hood on and I couldn't get my anchor like up in my ear, and it would frozzle me right because I needed to get to that spot. And so just all of these things like as goofy as it may seem. You know, my wife laughs at me because I'm out there and my you know, I've got my chest harness on my backpack on the middle of the you know, late late one evening, I'm like shs,

like what are you doing. I'm like, well, I'm making sure all this stuff works together, you know. Now. Fortunately I've switched to a thumb release. I'm more comfortable with hoods on. But like all of those things pop up, and I'm just one of those guys that I want to make sure this is I reduce all of these little grimlins that are gonna pop up in your hunt, Like I I just want to take care of that at home, not out in the field, like you said

on day seven, eight or nine. Like, if that's what costs me, I'm gonna never forgive myself or be real frustrated with myself that that was the little detail that that didn't you know that that cost me a bowl.

So yeah, you should definitely prepare. One thing I always noticed, especially when I throw my pack on, especially you know, not just my pack, but with it weighted down with the normal amount of gear I have it, whether that's a bivvy hunt or even a day hunt, is when I drop back, so my right shoulder, the one that supports my bow, I have to like really like focus and like kind of give my shoulder a little bit of a boost to hold it up right, because it's

that pack is drawing down on it, completely different than when I don't have a pack on. So you have to identify this stuff long before season. That way, when you do get the opportunity to dry, your buddy're like, what's wrong with my shoulders not working right? So that way you make the best shot.

but you gotta you gotta read a book. So I have one hex in the middle that is basically about an eight by eight hex you know what the what the corners cut off, and then I've got the eight

hexes around. And so when I'm getting everything tuned, I won't do this right off the bat when I'm getting broad heads already, but at some point I will start to like walk back with five arrow groups and at the point where I can no longer keep all five inside of this six to eight inch circle, Like all right, that is my range, or like what I'm comfortable for

the year. Like it's not four out of five. You know, there may be an occasional flyer or something that I know that I screwed up on, like I dropped my bow or I didn't you know, whatever it may be. But like I want to know that five out of five times I'm going to be able to hit that eight inch circle at any distance. Now, let's say it's a good shooting year for me, and I've had a few of them where like, all right, I'm able to do that at seventy yards keep it inside the eight

inch circle, or but then I subtract back. I'm like, all right, I really don't even want to shoot that far because of movement or things that are out of my control. Let's bring that back. And for me, we talk about sliding sites and all this stuff. I shoot a four pin and a lot of people are like, go, I don't know why you waste your time on a twenty. Well, because for me, like if I can just anchor a pin, I don't want to. I don't want to drop a thirty pin lower than it needs to be. I just

want to be able to aim. But anyways, I have a fourpence sit twenty thirty, forty to fifty. I'm not gonna lie like I do not. I consider the dial on my bow is like a backup, backup, a follow up shot. Yeah, I'm gonna shoot my olk at twenty to fifty. Now, there was a time in twenty nineteen there was a bullet fifty five and I just kind of stack pins and went up. I wasn't able to roll it, and so I was confident that year that I could make that shot. But uh, that's how I

established like my own comfortable shot distance. So to be honest, most of the time, I'm shooting good enough that it just defaults to fifty, Like I'm not shooting a bowl if it's not within fifty yards. And I've been fortunate that I've been able to like hold up to my end of the deal, minus the one at fifty five yards in Oregon there in nineteen. But now we may get into we haven't really even touched on the ideal

shot angles and shot distances. Anybody that's listened to my stuff before watching my hunt knows that I'm a big I always got to go into this a little bit squirmy, gingerly. Yeah, I'm a big fan of frontels. They're very, very effective, and they will kill elk faster than any broadside shot I've ever taken. But with that, here's the big asterisk, the precursor, the whatever. Like I need to now hit the two inch white circle inside of my hex before

like that's my distance. I'm comfortable, like I need to have a blade strike that because I'm now just limited my kill zone to maybe a three to a four inch wide by about a ten inch tall, and I can't I can't afford to go left or right, and

I even put more pressure on myself. I've really got to hit about a three by six area, you know, above the strendom, above that collar, that bone structure up into the neck, and I really need to be shooting good and a lot of times that means I'm limiting myself to twenty five ish, maybe thirty on a real good year. Because a frontal shot gone left or right or low or even high can can turn bad really quick.

It can be the greatest shot in the world, but if you miss, it's not going to turn out very well. And a lot of times that bull is gonna get away.

But they're good on like, I don't know, fifty million light years speed and anyway, they have to shoot and it has to go down this like ventilation pipe, right, and I kind of I always picture the frontal shots on elk are the same thing. I'm like, if you do it right, I mean, this whole damn thing's gonna explode. You know, you're gonna kill that elk, no problem. But if you don't do it perfect, it's a bad deal.

And will the elk die? Maybe? Maybe not, depends on where it depends on where your elk or your arrow hits. If it's not inside the perfect circle, why is that a big deal. Let's say, Well, I don't really care if it kill it or not. You know, some people maybe, but I think we're all we all want a humane death for the elk. But and also you could spend you know, the next day or two searching for your bowl on your buddy that didn't shoot on his day to shoot. You could you could spend a whole day

on his day to shoot and not. You know, it just takes takes you guys out of the game. So I feel like, not only you gotta you owe it to the elk for a quick, humane kill, also you gotta owe it to your buddy to make a to take good shots. You start taking risky shots. Pretty soon you're just chasing blood trails when you should be just hunting. You know. And I've found out now I'm not a huge I am not a huge fan of a frontal and I'll tell you why, just because I know how

emotions can run high in people. I know how abilities and kind of like what we talked about. You know, you get you get winded, you got your pack, you're you're you're you're in distress, you're shooting in distress. And a lot of times when a let's just let's just be honest, a big bull elk walks in frontal, it's pretty intimidating. You know, he's a he is a big animal.

That thing's his his face is about your level. You know, he's probably six feet tall at you know, when he's standing there at normal stance and that thing's walking in it's pretty intimidating. And then to kind of hold your crap together and make that perfect shot, it can't be remarkable for a lot of shooters. It's it's a tough shot to make just that in itself. Then you have to consider, Okay, is this elk a pill from me? Is he downhill? Like? What are your angles? He is

he perfectly frontal? Is he not perfectly a frontal? And when you're a little excited, it's kind of hard to it's kind of hard to determine those things. So I don't recommend it. I typically won't take it. I will say, if if I had my bow drawn this and a bull walked in and he it was the right yardage and he's on the same plane as me, and everything was perfect, and it's close, let's say ten to twenty yards, I would probably take the shot. But if it wasn't

exactly perfect, I would not. You know, I've taken I've taken two, I've taken kind of a quarring frontel, and I've taken a full frontal, and the full frontal he died within forty seconds. He had left a blood trail that Stevie Wonder could follow. You know. It was just it was amazing the other one, and it was kind of a quartering shot, which I watched Jason Felp take that same shot and his bolt I like, quick as can be that one Idaho, when you and Charlie were

down in that crap hole. I'm like, oh yeah, this this is like the same Sara. So I took that shot and I don't know my arrow had didn't hit the right spot, it didn't penetrate, and I never did find that bowl. He was bugling again two days later. But that was a heck of a monkey.

So if the bull's walking uphill, you would maybe want to hit a little lower, But if the bulls walking downhill, like downhill to you, you would want to hit a little higher. And if it's on plane, you need to be like you need to intersect the center of that. You know, we're trying to hit that connection between the heart and the lungs, like the mass you know the the entire you know, pump of the city, you know,

everything that's making everything else work. You're and it's a it's a pretty small section, but it's it's located about halfway up the bull's body. And if you're going low, where most people end up wanting to always pick, you're gonna like maybe if you can get through the sternum and all the heavy bone structure there, you maybe will

catch the heart. But that bone structure is going to protect the majority of the heart at most of your angles, Like you got to get up into the soft tissue and get up into the heart where the heart connects into the lungs. And so that's that's one thing on angles that I think a lot of people not understanding the a goals and where the vitals are at. Everybody seems to aim low on a on a on a frontel, which is not going to work out very well for you or the oak.

to be tough to recognize that spot. So you have to understand anatomy to hit that thoracic opening, which is going to be about halfway if you return the Elk's broadside. It's going to be like if you were to cut make a line halfway between top and bottom, then that that line that would line would go straight out to the thoracic opening, and that's that's where the line has to be. Above that, you're going to hit him in the neck. Now you may kill him, you may not.

Below it. Like Jason said, there's that all that bone mass down there's going to be really tough. Can you shoot through it? It has been done, But to shoot through it and hit you know, the heart or something vital, it's tough. And if you hit high, you know you're gonna hit in the neck part of the spinal area, and that's some massive bones to try to penetrate through too.

So you just have to really you really have to study this and really understand elk anatomy and also understand your shooting ability.

didn't pay attention to anything else. The bulls walking downhill. My position at about a thirty degree slope, so not super steep, but pretty good downhill, and the bull as he was walking was bouncing his head, but I was locked in on where I was, you know, not really peeking around the side, but kind of like where is everything lining up? Like what are my angles? And I paid no attention to anything besides where I had to

get that arrow and to kill it. And as he's doing that, he dropped his head on one of his bounces, you know, as he's walking along, and that arrow actually went in just below his cheek and it was it went in through his neck, but the veins were hanging out by his face, and it looked like I had shot that bowl in the face, and Steve just elected to not. You know, I thank him for it because it didn't look good. It wasn't a good visual. But that bowl, the arrow went to the exact right spot.

I've never to this day seen more blood. There's been equal bloods on frontals, but that bowl literally twirls, stands there for about four or five seconds, walks over and we can hear his horns like hitting the rocks. Within a minute, he's dead, expired. But it was one of those things where if I hadn't been paying full attention to angles and vidles, I would have just to avoid hitting him in the neck or the face, I would have aimed low, which would have been a bigger mistake,

if that makes any sense. So I'm just given some examples, like real life examples, like the arrow didn't look like it went in the right spot. But if you can imagine an elk walking down hill, you hit him high and that arrow basically goes in horizontal like we hit

all the right stuff at that angle. So just another example of you just really need to identify and understand how everything lays up in there and at the angle that you're at, the angle that the arrow's traveling, the angle that the elk is, and it's really that difference in angle of the arrow's path and then the bulls bodies path, like how and where you need to intersect vidles.

So I'll diverge from frontals and we'll maybe go into some broadside shots and what you're looking for there and what your approach is to avoid bone and all of that.

turn the bowl for you. A lot of times what happens is that bull will come into a yard is where he expects to see the bull or the cow I don't want to say, get nervous, but doesn't see what he wants, and then he'll like, you know, he does that like I'm leaving dance right where he kind of twirls and moves and you know, may do his dance or maybe he's traveling through the area on his

way to the call in. Regardless of what it is, you'll end up getting a broadside or a slightly quartering to or slightly quartering away shot, Like what's your approach? What are you thinking about on all of those? And what's your preferred shot there?

and where I'm going to aim. You know, if you aim right in that crease, right very close to the shoulder blades and scalpula, if you there's kind of a little v there where the scapula comes up and then the leg bone kind of comes down, There's almost makes kind of a v there right in that little pocket is like the most deadly spot to hit them. But if things don't go right, let's say the bowl moves at the at the shot. Let's say I'm torquing my bow.

Let's say I don't execute the shot perfect, it's very easy to hit, to hit that shoulder blade. So I typically don't aim at that little pocket. I'm going to aim away from it a little ways, maybe six inches away from that pocket. I don't want I don't want there to be any any issues with penetration whatsoever. So I will kind of aim a little further back, but not too far back. I don't want to try to aim, you know, back to where it's like now I'm I'm

shaking hands with liver and lungs. I want to you know, there's a there's a happy media in there.

is it gives you the most margin for air. Right, I can go three to six inches to my left and still not hit that bone. I can go up six inches and still catch long. I can go down six inches and catch heart or the bottom of the lung, and I can go back six inches and still catch lung right. And so it really just gives me the largest, the biggest margin for any air that may affect, you know, if we're gonna be able to kill or to quickly kill that bowl. And so that's been always my approach.

Like you know, slightly below, if you get real you nitpicky, slightly below half six inches back from that crease three to six inches and that's always on a broadside shot. That's that's been a good location. Now you get that. I love a quartering away shot as well, But we need to start being smart hunters and once again working on those angles, Like is that bowl starts to quarter away?

My arrows going eight inches back from the he's ten inches back from the crease, twelve inches back from the crease, and what what a good you know rule of thumb and you've heard it, you know you're not hearing it from me. First is try to imagine where that arrow is going to cross through and come out the other side. And you're trying to put together once again, you know, using all this geometry, like where does that going to line everything up? Where you're going to hit like through

the middle of the lungs, through the heart? And so is the more that bowl of quarters, the more that arrow's got to come back to a point where you no longer want to hit him in the hind quarter, right, And so that's it, like that's my limit, Like all right, I'm no longer shooting at this bowl because he's turned too much. So that's that's kind of how the the

quartering away and then quartering two. You get a little margin of air, but at some point, you know, if he gets turned too much towards you ten or fifteen, you can't catch him on the frontel, you can't catch him. You can't really catch vital because of the leg bones behind it, and so you're really just kind of stuck waiting for a better shot opportunity at some point on a quartering two.

the shot. It's it's really severely quartered away from you and you enter the pont your arrow it hinders the paunch and it continues and then lodges on the off

side shoulder. So you're gonna get all the goodies. But the problem is is the entry hole you're not gonna have an exit wind sometimes, so the entry hole is going to be the only hole that thing has, and it's gonna the the guts a lot of times, some fatty material sometimes just you know, gut material is gonna clog that hole up and you're just gonna not gonna get a good blood trail. I've I've been involved with

that before. I had a friend that that shot a bull like that and we tracked it and tracked it and tracked it, and we didn't find it till it was too late. That there was a good, very lethal shot, but did not leave enough sign to recover him in time.

So you just have to be really careful with those those quartering angles and maybe air on the side of not having it couring too far away to at a too steep of an angle, so where you're at your rib, your air will enter the rib cage on on your side and then lodging that front shoulder or in front or exit the cavity in front of the front shoulder.

or fifteen steps. You know. It's it's that quick at times. Or yeah, the bull may live a little bit longer. But if I'm hunting and I'm trying to pretend like I've got this down to a science where if I'm hunting brush area's like, all right, I'm gonna hit the bowl low now, and if it's wide open, I'm going to hit the bowl high. It's not that I'm not that you know, you know, detailed in it, but there are times where it's all right, the lower heart, lower lung type shot is going to make sure I've got

good blood. He's still going to die, and I'm going to be able to find him and make sure that you can, you know, bring all the meat back to your your cooler, versus like, all right, I'm gonna take a risk on it and hit him a little bit higher. You're playing with that that void you know along the back, you're playing with not a lot of blood, albeit it

will die quick. But if that, if you give that bowl you know, one hundred to two hundred yards of ability to sprint like it just become really difficult to find. So another thing that needs to go through your head is, you know, keep your shot low and at times, if you're in the right terrain, then a higher shot will be just fine. But like I say, I usually aim for below the half line, and that guarantees I get good blood expires quick and just seems to be the best of all options there.

injured my shoulder that year and I shot. I had to draw my bow with a mouth tab and you can look that up on my YouTube channel mouth tab Madness. I think it's episode ten where I shoot the bowl. But anyhow, I was aiming below the below that center line, you know, like we talk about, and this bowl was just kind of coming. He was pissed off and he was not at least the least bit alert. He wasn't looking for danger, and I had I had my pen on him and I and I released the arrow and

it hits him. He runs off and then pauses and then he takes off again. But anyway, so I just know I just crushed the same like I just I know I hit the perfect spot. There's no way I didn't. The shot felt good and everything. Well we find the ball. He didn't bleed real great. Well, he bled internally because the arrow it had hit above that center line. I'm like, man,

hit really high, like eight inches high, like that's crazy. Well, you watch the video back and at the shot that bowl that was not really you know, looking for danger. He dropped. He dropped about eight inches so that if it wouldn't have been for that, it would have hit perfect.

So giving yourself that mark that that room aim just you know, a bit below the centern line, not too close to that shoulder because anything can happen those, you know, and then the next elki you shoot, when the bow goes off, nothing happens but the arrow just burying right where you aim. So it's it's hard to anticipate exactly, but aim to aim to places where even if the animal reacts, it's still going to hit good vitals and you'll be able to find them.

still have that you know, that room above it to still make a vital hit. But you just like you did, ended up with a little less blood right right.

everything dialed in. For me, I usually get my stuff dialed in about this time and then kind of really go on cruise control, try to shoot twenty thirty arrows three or four times a week and just kind of and then I go on real cruise control as it gets towards season, like maybe shooting you know, five to ten shots and really really concentrating on every SHOT's good, But get your setups figured out now so there's not a big panic before. Make sure everything's you know, tuned

for broadheads already. And yeah, that's what we got on on the on this episode of Cutting the Distance.

and excessive distances and and high elevation and stuff. And that that is a great warm up for elk season to to to identify your strong points and your weaknesses too, because we didn't even talk about third access access on on your on your your sites and stuff, and that's it. That's the place that's gonna that's gonna find it. And uh, it's really hard to find that set that third access in your backyard. You'll have to go shoot that in at a steep angle somewhere out of town if you

have that opportunity somewhere. But yeah, hit hit up those those extreme three D R archery shoots and and that'll really help you out for for season this fall.