Welcome back to another episode of Cutting the Distance. Today's guest needs no introduction. He's none other than my co host of Cutting the Distance. You get to listen to this guy every other week here on the show. In his spare time, he also likes to act as a figure model. And then he also trains cats. So if you have any cats that need trained, Dirt is amazing with with cats, the felines. He's your guy. Welcome to show, Dirt.
Oh, hey, there feline, my feline friend olaf. He may even make an appearance if we're if we're not, if we're unlucky. He usually likes to crawl around on my keyboard and when I get out a podcast. So and uh, you know it's a fitness model. Let's get this straight. I'm a fitness model.
Oh, fitness model, not a figure model.
More favorites.
What's the difference and fitness and figuring.
Fitness is more muscle figures more like you got all the the the curves in the right places.
I guess, Oh, oh so that's not you.
No, I've got it's all Hey, I'm big boned.
Right, So on today's episode, though I want it. It's that time of year, right, it's and we try to make this podcast somewhat relevant to the timing of the year. Today is the sixth of February, so I feel like, uh, today's Arizona, Elk and prong Horn. By time this comes out, though, you're already gonna miss it, So hopefully I'm not the bearer of bad news that if you didn't get in for Arizona, you missed it two days ago, as this will be released on days, but it's a time right.
We're all uh me and you. Every year. As much as we love elk cunting, as much as it's part of what we do, you're always trying to get some elk hunts, some elk tags, you know, and even outside of elk tags, meal, dear, white Tail, spring Bear, whatever it is. You're trying to kind of plan the season, and whether you're a week in warrior, whether you're a guy that uses one or two weeks of vacation, whether
you a guy that uses three or four. I think management of that time and making sure you're in the best place or what's available. It takes a little bit of work and management and effort and studying and understanding of state systems and and sort of on today's podcast, we're going to kind of go through that, like how
do application processes work. You know, maybe some reminders on dates, whether they're approved or tentative dates that you need to pay attention to as a year goes by, And then really want to kind of jump in more to our strategy on our personal strategy and how we look at each individual Western state and what we want to get out of that state, and kind of how we set ourselves up so that we have hopefully an ELK tag and you know in our pocket if not, you know, if we're lucky more than one.
Yeah, absolutely, And it can be kind of a dawning task too, especially each state is so much different on how they conduct they're licensing their tag applications. There. It's a lot to learn, definitely, is it is.
And and even over the last ten years, the evolution has been fairly quick, you know, Oregon changing their system. Idaho. I used to be able five, I might be off a little bit, five, six, seven years ago, I could drive to the gas station and buy my tag at the end of archery season if I needed to go on a hunt. You know, those days are long gone. So this this system has changed, evolved. Some of the things that you used to be able to just count on are no longer there. You know, systems or you
know seasoned state systems going. What used to be over the counter have turned to limited, and limited have turned like premiums. And and this target keeps moving. It's almost a full time job keeping up on it and where your points are. And then you throw in point creep into the thing, you know, where you thought you were going to go in this many years, even based on projections, and then it moves. You know, Arizona is a crazy state where it seems like, well there's this many people
at this many points, I'll eventually go. And it's just people are coming out of the woodwork and changing the way they apply and really really makes it for you have to be involved in order to plan your season now I'll say it that way.
Yeah, Well, like in Arizona, for instance, there's probably a lot of people out there like me who I haven't been applying in the draws at all. I just buy the bonus point every year and just I'm stockpiling points to where someday when I get enough points and my schedule looks like you know, it's gonna gonna work because I'm going to dedicate a whole the whole season, which the whole season is not like Idaho where you get
a month unt. It's it's a couple of week weeks, and I want to be able to dedicate more than that. I'm going to get there a week early, you know. Scout just you know, have the have the hunt of a lifetime. So I think there's probably a lot of people doing that same thing where they're they're banking points until one day they get like pretty close and they're like, all right, I'm gonna apply this year, and then it screws up all the numbers.
Yeah, and then there I mean, we'll get into it more like the other The crazy thing about Arizona and New Mexico is like sometimes they wait for a great moisture year, so you got like the point guard where people apply, they put point guard, and then they got like a dry year because you're applying before you know exactly what you're gonna get for horn growth, right, and then people are bouncing out and so it's just it's a very complex system. But we'll try to do our best.
You know, it's tough with me living in washing Dirk live in Idaho. We've tried to hunt as much as we can around the West, but a lot of a lot of times some of these states you taught Arizona are gonna be once in a lifetime, So we just kind of sit on the outside look in, try to understand their system, try to understand what's going on, and we'll do our best to break that down for all of you. So, just like every episode of cutting this and we're gonna start with some Q and a's. Usually
we grab them from you our listeners. You know, you can either send them to us at CTD at Phelps Game Calls dot com, or you can hit us up on social media Instagram, Facebook and send us your questions area. We'll do our best to get them in here for for our guests or our so But today I went a little different method, knowing we were going to do more getting a tag in your pocket centric type of a podcast. I went to Chat GPT. I wanted to check this thing out, and I asked for three questions
on how to acquire Western ELK tag. So we're going to see if chat.
You're a millennial, aren't you? You? I bet you could what's your I bet what's your your birth? I bet you fall in the millennial category because it's such a millennial thing to do.
I feel. I think I I'm like one year on the wrong side, but I identify and in today's day and age, I can identify is the other.
One or the why or whatever x X gene.
So I'm the greatest generation. I'm crossing over into that category because you can't tell me who I need to be.
All right.
So the first question that chat GPT generated, how does tag application process work? And? Uh, I know you you might just defer right back to me. This might be a question for myself because each state's a little bit different. Right. Some you can get some ELK tags over the counter, so that application is literally show up at a gas station, apply early on you get your tag. So well, when we say over the counter, that's a tag that literally
can be paid for in person. You go out the door in you're hunting.
How many places can you tell you that these days?
So we're gonna get into that body. But this, okay, we'll just jump into it now. Let's jump into it now. So when I think for me personally, my home state does well we'll get into that. Like Colorado is still like the crown jewel of over the counter elk hunting. They've got a lot of archery over the counter. They do still what I say, reserve, preserve whatever word you want to eat. They do reserve some of their premium units for the draw, so they do have some draws.
And then what Colorado does is they're better muzzleoder hunts, they're better rifle hunts. Early season rifle hunts kind of end up taking your preference points. But there is a lot of opportunity within Colorado, even if you do have to apply some zero point units, so it may be controlled, but you can apply. But Colorado is kind of the king of over the counter. Now that Idaho want the direction they did, there are some opportunities within Washington and Oregon.
In Washington, specifically, all of our Roosevelt hunting, I say, all the majority of our Roosevelt hunting, with the exceptions of a few premium units up around Mount Baker, up around White River, and then some of the Mount Saint Helens units. There's a few of them that are off limits, but the majority of the western side of the state you can hunt roosevelts over the counter every year. The
same with Oregon. They have some reserved trophy units or better units on the west side, you know, like the Powers Unit. Some of these units that are more famed roosevelts are are in the draw. But you can still hunt a lot of the Oregon coast for roosevelts over the counter. Within Washington though, we do have some Eastern Washington very limited. We have some eastern Washington where you're
hunting true Rocky Mountain elk. There are opportunities. Now with that said, I would say that they're they're low, low percentage, low opportunities. The guys that know how to hunt, know the areas typically get it done. And then without that, like I don't want to short credit Idahoa, Wayoming, Montana, Utah, New Mexico, some of these states, and I'm not going to get into it because I honestly personally don't look
into those. They have some b tag opportunities right where there's some Antler list stuff that maybe over the counter or some Antler List stuff that you can drive ever year, which I would say still not over the counter, but there are opportunities to hunt every year in some of these other states. You know, Utah has some select antler lists.
I think Spike only. You know, some of these states offer some some some units that are easier to get, but honestly, Colorado, Washington, Oregon or really you're over the counter opportunities nowadays. You know, Idaho still considers themselves over the counter.
But it's not.
Anybody that's anybody that's followed the mess that's been I will say mess.
It's a mess, it's a train.
The system they've put in place for non residents has really became, maybe even more so of a lottery than just putting your dang name in a hat and seeing if you get drawn out. As much as I'm anti draw, and I love the idea of everybody going on in the even playing field. And Idaho, it's to the point where I don't know, I'm torn on it. I don't know the right answer. At some point, if it allowed me to hunt with my buddies, or at least have a chance hunt with my buddies, I would love the draw.
But I also love the idea right now as it requires some planning, It requires some dedication of your time to that day, It requires some of these things to get your tag. So I'm torn on which way, But Idaho is no longer over the counter.
Yeah, if you've ever boughten, I ever tried to buy concert tickets and you get online when they first first go on sale, you get into this virtual waiting room and you're assigned kind of a random number, no matter who was there first. They just assigned people random numbers. So you could be number one, you could be number five and seventy two or twenty five thousand. Here a lot of those stories too in Idaho. And so if you and a friend want to go hunt there, you
both have to log in separately. And let's say Jason gets a tag and I don't because I have a crappy number and he's got a really good number. It just makes it really hard for friends and families to go hunt together as non residents in Idaho. I feel like just the drawing the drawing model would be so much more simple. It would free up a lot of people's free time. It'd just be a lot more trouble free process and allow you know, friends and family to
hunt together instead of this. It's just not a good system. And I think, yeah, it takes I think they're looking at the god yeah, and I think they're looking at it pretty hard to make some changes, but we'll see.
Yeah, we've been very fortunate that, you know, we usually can get one body into a unit if it's a DC unit. But by the time as fast as these tags are going, like, you have literally minutes and you better have a low number, you know, and some of these tags are gone. And so it's unfortunately, I would like to see that that fixed. I know everybody's doing their best in these game agencies. I would have to think they're trying to fix the system. But hopefully in
future years in Idaho they'll get that fixed. But within that so back to how does a tag application process work. Some states have lotteries, some states have preference points, some states have bonus points. So when you when we talk about a state has preference points, it's like Colorado, whoever has the highest amount of points is the only one that goes in a draw. So let's say there's five tags available and ten people have the highest amount of
points that apply for that. So let's say the highest amount of points in that that preference point state is twenty. Ten guys apply with twenty, but there's only five tags available, You're going to go into a draw and you got a fifty percent chance of drawing that tag. Right. Anybody with less than twenty points has a zero percent chance
of drawing. So that's how your preference points works. Bonus points, like my home state of Washington or Nevada, they are going to square your points and that's how many numbers you get thrown in the hat. So let's say you have twenty points, You've got four hundred numbers in the hat. If you have ten points, you've got one hundred numbers in the hat. So it it gives you, It gives you the preference of you know, I say preference is the wrong work. We're talking bonus points. It gives you.
The longer you apply, the better your odds are. Right. It gives you that almost a loyalty, loyalty points in a way. Yeah, And so Nevada and Washington run a straight bonus point system. Oregon in Utah run a modified preference slash lottery system. So I'm going to get these numbers wrong, but I want to say seventy five to twenty five, So seventy five percent of the takes are given on a preference point system and twenty five percent maybe random or twenty five percents like a bonus point.
So then they give out a certain amount to tags that way, and then there's the over the counter sales. You need to understand, you know, as you go into each state kind of what your odds are, and that's kind of how they're going to be figured out. Whether you're a high point winner, they're just gonna tell you have zero all the way up to a certain point. You've got states like Arizona that I don't even know
how they work, but there's always a random possibility. There's always a chance you can draw the tag, but it's it's usually very very low until you get up towards those those max point holders. And my second question we answered already kind of in that, So what are the difference between limited entry tags and over the counter tags? So Dirk correct me if I'm wrong, I would say to describe this, most states designate certain areas within their
their state as being limited entry. It's usually they're trying to create a high a high quality hunting experience, maybe bigger bulls, less hunters, more ble whatever, it may be some combination of those pressure whatever it may be they're creating a limited opportunity, and they're usually the most sought after tags, and so what you typically get is those are harder to draw, they're more limited, Your draw ods
go way down. And then on the very other end of the spectrum, you've got your opportunity tags, which are going to be your over the counter opportunities within within that state. And I'm not gonna we're talking limited entry and over the counter, and then there's a whole bunch in between. So you have super premium on one side. Let's think, you know, if you're a mildear guy the
ponseigant in Utah, or if you're an ELK guy. You know back in the day it was Unit nine, Unit ten in Arizona, whatever it may be, like, you have your ultra premiums, and then you've got your over the counter on the other end. And in the middle there's lots of different options. And this is where we're hopefully going to get to in our main discussion is how do you strategize that, Like, I don't need to go, I don't need to be in Unit nine or ten Arizona.
I just want an opportunity, but it needs to be better than over the counter, right, or or I don't necessarily want that. I want something that's maybe in between Unit nine. You know, maybe they've got giant bowls, but I don't have to work my tail off. You know, there's a sliding scale, and that's that's kind of the difference between those limited entry over the counter. And then you're the opportunity of you getting those tags.
Yeah, yeah, and and you have to look at opportunity to like, you know, you have the opportunity to hunt elk or deer, whatever it is you're trying to pursue. So an opportunity rich tag, you know, whether I said over the counter or an unlimited draw. You know something, there's lots of tags. You have the opportunity to go hunting. Now, you may not have the opportunity to see a mature
class of animal. You may not have an opportunity to see a lot of animals, but you'll have the opportunity to get out there, pack your bow, your gun around, whatever muzzleoder around and see the country and you just might run into one. So you really have to do some research and kind of figure out what is the best one for you, and or do you just want to get out there. You know, you know, when all the all the if you come up empty on on all all the other options, you know, maybe you still
want to get out there and hone your skills. So it's all personal preference, really yep yep.
And then the last question generated by chat GPT, how can I increase my chances of drawing a tag? And like I said, some of these kind of are running into each other. Is our first question? You know, our first question kind of got some answers. There's multiple ways, and we're going to dive into this. I would say number one, which you may or may not have a whole lot of effect on, is as soon as you
get your hunting license. If your goal is to hunt out west, have your mom and dad started applying for you for twelve If you're older now and you've got some time, like look at the reality of drawing tags. To be honest, if I wasn't, you know as deep as I am in some of these states like Arizona, Utah not saying don't apply, but the odds now, if you're okay hunting late rifle, late archery, I think you still have a shot, Like you just need to be
a realistic your goals are. But if your goal is to hunt one time in a premium Arizona unit with the you know, with what Arizona is known for is elk hunting, you're gonna probably be disappointed and you're probably gonna kick the bucket before you get that chance. Right. But if you're okay going and hunting, you know a unit that maybe has broken bowls and you just want to lk hunt like killing you know, the most perfect put together or getting that that same experience as like
an Arizona quality archery all hunt, you can apply. So apply early, be realistic about your goals. My buddy Robert Hanneman, I've got a chance to do some you know elk shape camps with them and bend around. His whole goal is applied for less popular units, like just give me a tag and maybe limit the people and then I'm gonna go use my hunting skill to like do the rest. Right, So you can apply for less popular hunting units the tag A lot of times, opportunity in a somewhat decent
unit is all we really need. And then you just have to participate in a lot of drawings and bonus point systems or or the other opportunities when you go into New Mexico or when you go into Idaho and they don't have point systems yet it is an equal playing field. Now there are some odds stacked against you, but it's it's very level. And when you go into New Mexico, you know everybody's heard about the HELI, so I feel like I'm not blowing up somebody's spot. But
maybe you don't go put in for unit sixteen. You go put in for a unit that has forty five percent draw ods. It's known to be a little bit tougher hunt that maybe isn't the premium dates, but there's just strategies where you know being in those systems. And then for all of you that aren't math nerds, the chance of you drawing a tag. Let's say I've got a two percent chance of drawing a tag, and let's say I put in fifty times. We all know that you multiply how many times you put in by the
percentage of your draw and I should draw one tag. Right, So what that tells us is, yeah, it was a lot of very two percent draw tag is very tough. But if I put my name in the hat, fifty times, I've got it, I should, by the odds, draw one of those fifty tags. It's just how the math works out now. Doesn't happen, not very much, and is it expensive, very expensive to put in for fifty tags. But what I'm saying is the more you put in, the more you're going to be rewarded on those tag opportunities.
Yeah. Absolutely.
The other option, which we're not really getting into because I feel like residents know their own state and their own systems. When you're from Washington, like myself, I do hunt my home state. I did this year, I have in the past on special hunts, but I'm always thinking outside of my own state. So I'm basically a non resident hunter on the ground on ninety nine percent of my planning. But within your own state, Dirk living in Idaho, I'm jealous of you know, guys that live in Montana, Wyoming,
you know, Colorado, Montana. I think I already said Montana. But the guys that live in states that still aren't limited like they have it the best. And I think over the last ten years, Dirk living in Idaho can attest to it, like hunters and outdoorsmen are moving the states just for that opportunity. But it's a given they've got a chance to hunt good over the counter general stuff every year where me and Washington, YEI I can grind it out. I've got some good opportunity, but they're
not the best hunts. And then you've got people that live in Nevada. They can't hunt elk every year, which is like a weird thing to me, even being from Washington, Like you don't get the hunt elk every year in your own state. Same thing with Arizona, same thing with New Mexico. Right, there's some states where these guys have turned into you hunt with your buddy, or you hunt with your buddies buddy when they draw, just so you
can be out in the field and experience it. So it's kind of all over the board on you know what your chances are drawing a tag. And that's not a bad system. And if you are in a state or you're learning to all hunt, like going on hunts with buddies that draw tags or being invited, you're offering to be a packer. Just being involved is gonna going to pay off when you do draw tag.
Right, Absolutely, going to the hunt. I've been going to the hunt expos for I don't know, probably twelve years now, and talk to a lot of sportsmen, a lot of them in Utah. Don't want to pick on anybody in particular, but a lot of them in Utah. And you talk to people and said, hey, are you an elk hunter? I'd like to know, but I'd like to be. I've been putting in for draws, you know, and and at some point, you know, when I draw my tag, then I'm gonna get really serious about elk hunting, you know.
You know, But I've got eight more years or ten more years before I get into that that point range where I can draw that tag. So I feel like a big mistake is people will kind of sit on their laurels all those years while they're trying to draw that that crown jewel tag. But they're not honing their skills as a hunter, and they should definitely be hunting these lesser opportunities for big mature animals maybe, but more opportunity to get out there, mix it up with some elk.
Learn some skills, learn how to learn how to you know, maybe the the way elk act, you know, to learn the biology, learn the country, learn how to move, move, learn how to hunt that way. Whenever you finally do get that that really good tag, then you're gonna be feeling a lot more confident in in your skills.
Yeah. Yeah, build that foundation. You you go out and try to, you know, put the top floor on the building without a foundation. It's it's just you're you're setting yourself up for a disaster, and you know, get out hunt with buddies, you hunt on your own hard units. You're gonna set yourself up for a lot better you know, chances when you finally do draw that tag for sure. Yeah, so we spend a little more time than we normally
do on those questions. But once again, you have questions for me or my guests, or Dirk or his guests, feel free to email them to us at ct D apt phelps game Calls dot com or I know Dirk's got a little hotline.
Yeah, you can call in. You can call the super hotline, the CTD hotline if you will phone numbers two zero eight two one nine seven seven zero one, leave a message, and if you leave a cool question or a cool story, I'll play it on my podcast. Maybe Jason can play it on his, but we'll try to answer it or just kind of address it, and you have three minutes to record your question or your comment and then it's gonna cut you off. So make it quick, keep it shut, keep shure.
Yeah, there you go. So now, uh yeah, we're gonna jump into our discussion, get jump in a little bit more about important dates. But before we get into our discussion, Derek, I got some some I'm gonna hit you with some quick questions just and this is all personal preference. There's no right or wrong answer.
I feel like you're gonna judge me, though you're always judging it.
This is this is a judge free zone because we've said it before on here, not not to not to get all sensitive, but like everybody does it for their own reason. Right, You've been hunting for I want to date you for forty plus years probably.
I don't know. I'm not that old.
Geez felt thirty five plus years.
Yeah.
Well I'm just talked maybe not hunting, but out in the woods thinking around.
Oh yeah, yeah, my whole life.
So, I mean, you've been doing it for a long time, You've accomplished certain things you set out to do, and you may have a different goal set than the guy that just picks up their bow, or I don't. Are we allowed to use adult onset hunters. I think it's acceptable.
These adult onset hunters, like they're specifically out there to fill their freezer with organic meat, so they, I mean any hyder hair that's legal, like that may be their goal me or you, Like I'm going into this unit that took me twenty years a draw and I'm gonna hold No, yeah, I'm gonna eat the thing, don't get me wrong, but I'm going for the maximum amount of horn on their head, the maximum amount of age on their body. Like you're going out there for some specific things,
so they can't get this wrong. But I'm curious, like from a user's perspective, would you hunt would you rather hunt a marginal and when I say marginal, you might run into elk every three days or here bigle every three days? Or would you rather hunt the best unit in your state every seven years?
At this point, I want both? Can I say that I want both?
No?
No, no, I want to hunt elk every single year. So and and that's what I do now. So and sometimes like the hundred, one of the arguably probably one of the worst units, in Idaho to hunt in the last couple of years. Rifle hunting too, you know. So
I want to hunt every year. I want to have those opportunities to hunt every year, and I'll sacrifice opportunity at seeing big animals just so I can get out there and then try to use my wismorship, use my hunting skills, use my scouting, my time on the ground to find the places where I will have success. But I don't want to wait every seven years to hunt a really good unit. But I do want the opportunity someday to hunt, you know, a really great unit. There's
a there's a unit, elk unit, idahood. I would give anything to hunt, but who knows, I may not I may not ever draw that text, and.
I get it. It's it's tough. And that's where hopefully when we get into like overall strategy, you're trying to accomplish both of these things at the same time. You try to keep that maybe marginal unit every year, but maybe use other states for a quality pitch or a change up, you know, to your normal system. So we'll get into that a little bit more. How would you define opportunity. We talked a little bit prior to the podcast, Like,
what is opportunity? Is it just having your bow in your hand or is it what would you describe as opportunity? You know, everybody talks about quality versus opportunity versus, but but I think opportunity is very vague and what people would consider that.
Yeah, I think it's a pretty broad, broad and out or broad definition. But it depends on who you ask, and and then maybe through the lens that I see the world or or you see the world, or whoever's saying it sees the world to me, opportunity depending on where you're at. You know, I feel like a good opportunity hunt would be I can have the opportunity hunt number one, of course, but I'm gonna have the opportunity to see animals, have the opportunity to get away from
people and have a good hunting experience. I'm looking for a good hunting experience overall. Now, it doesn't have to have giant animals running everywhere, but maybe there is a nice one there somewhere and I actually seeing animals. Different game departments may see that different. They're like, it's an opportunity for you to buy a tag and to go hunting. Then that's kind of how they see it. You know, the state of Idahola pick on them a little bit.
They have always said, you know, we're an opportunity state. We're not a trophy state by any means, but I
kind of feel like they use that term pretty loosely. Yeah, there's some of these places you do have the opportunity to buy a tag and go hunting, but you may not have the opportunity to like see very many animals or whatever, depending on the area, of course, So you have to That's where I guess doing research on your own and like like getting kind of nerdy and like breaking breaking down each area that you think you might might want to hunt and try to like figure in
the numbers to figure out if it's it's something more than just being able to have a tag and like get out outside and go hunting them. Like everybody likes to get out there and enjoy the hunt, but you also like to enjoy the meat the harvest, you know, whether whether you're you're killing an animal or or maybe have the opportunity to try to kill one, you know, yep.
Yeah, And I like to use extremes to explain the example. So you could say the state could say they provide an opportunity if they take every archery out hunter in the entire state of Washington, put us in the tiniest little mud flow unit next amount Saint Helens. Right now, that's technically an opportunity, but it's going to be the worst hunting experience of your life. Or you can say I'm gonna give one lucky tag holder and he's the
only one that can hunt the entire state of Washington. Like, those are both opportunity, but it's a completely different experience. I think what you know, And the only reason I'm trying to define this is because this word opportunity gets thrown around a lot, like it's a very minimum, it's just a tag, a chance, but like in reality, you really, you know, maybe even the best hunter has a zero percent chance of killing anything because of the odds they're
stuck into. When I think of when I'm going out, when I talk personally about opportunity, if I hunt hard five to seven to ten days, I'm going to get one to maybe three opportunities, right, maybe more shotty lower on the end I'm gonna get I'm going to get a chance, and there may be a two or three day stretch in there where it's a ghost town or
I haven't figured the dang place out, you know. But eventually that takes a little work, maybe a little more hiking, maybe a little more dedication to an area, maybe getting up earlier or whatever. But if I if I can hone in and use my skills and figure out, like I want an opportunity out an ELK, whether I blow it, whether the setup gets screwed up, whether they win me, whatever it may be. Like, that's kind of how I
determine an opportunity. Give me a shot, maybe one to three shots ver seven to ten day period and I'm gonna be happy. Yeah, but that opportunity.
I think that's a fair, fair analysis.
Yeah, And this is a little side question kind of went away from the quick fire and I don't know. I mean, COVID gets a lot of blame for this, and it's it's obvious, you know, we're a is us both being in a business. We track it, We've seen it. We've seen tag numbers. We could watch Colorado put out a data set like first time TAG applications skyrocketed that
first year at COVID. Do you feel like this current pressure for for the allocation of big game tags or like the ability to even get them, is ever going to subside or do you think it's here to stay? I know, and I always struggle with this, and I should have did some research on the data. I'm a horrible podcast host because of this. But we always you always hear like hunting's dying or hunting's numbers are going
down from this point to that point. I want to know, is it tag numbers have to be fallen at the same rate or somebody's lye into me, you know, like or we do you feel or do you think there's any sign that this like request you know, this this demand for these tag numbers is ever going to go down or we just is it stuck and it's here to stay?
Man? I think I think right now it's so popular, so trendy to come to the West and hunt, which I get it, like I see the allure. I participate in it, like I love hunting like in the West, and I think that is probably probably an all time high the popularity like Idaho, you know, like you said ten years ago, you could buy if you wanted to go hunt Idaho archery ELK on the last day of season as a non resident, you could show up and
buy a tag at the gas station. Now they sell out in the first couple hours of the first day in December the year of the December before the season, that before the hunting the next fall season. So I don't know if there's I don't know. I feel like trends kind of come and go. Popularity. I know, back in that certain heydays of hunting different places used to be kind of like huge, you know, popularity, But then something happened. Maybe it's not as cool anymore. Maybe those
people don't care about it anymore. Maybe that that population aged out into where the younger generations not backfilling. But they say hunting recruitments down across the United States, and I think, and they always say, well, it's not necessarily the people coming out West to hunt. It's it's the young people in the other parts of the United States.
You know, there's they don't they don't have the kids, you know, getting into hunting, you know, going hunting with dad, grandpa, grandma, whoever, mom, whatever. They don't have those those kids backfill in numbers as hunters every year, which I definitely can see that, and
it's tough with kids hunting. I mean, you're you're competing with instant gratification of video games, uh, social media whatever, you want to watch digital videos, movies on demand at any time, any anywhere you can that you have so many options of like instant gratification for kids these days, to where hunting well, let's just you know, we all know we're all hunters. It's it's hard, you know. It's the days can be long, they're physical, the weather can
be super hot, super cold, somewhere in between. But it's not definitely not an instant gratification. You have to put in some work and then reap the rewards. And I think with just society today, it's it's really hard to compete with that. So overall, I think numbers are falling. But I feel like the little the saving grace. Maybe once people grow up and they want they see what life has to offer and they're just like, dude, I'm tired of spending my vacation time sitting looking at four
walls or whatever I want. There's more got to be more to life. And they learn about Western hunting or hunting in general wherever they're at, and then maybe that adult onset hunter that they can. Maybe they're that's the new answer, Like that's going to perpetuate hunting through the future.
But I feel like at.
Some point it may it may not be quite as popular.
Yeah, I you know, I talked to my dad about you know, they used to travel them on tana and do a little bit out of state hunting, you know. But I feel and not saying this is bad, but like I feel like a lot of guys with the you know, the Internet, social media, everybody out east is now applying, right or they they see how easy it is to just plan for this and just go do it, you know. So they're getting their group of three to four buddies together and they're coming out west making it
like a yearly or an annual. Not like I say, not saying it's wrong. Or they're able to apply from their you know, their desk and whatever it is North Carolina or you know, New York or wherever it may be. Those guys can sit and apply. They draw great. If not, then they put the same amount of money in that we did. And and it's just it's it's putting like you say, we maybe losing some of those numbers or
that recruitment. But we're getting maybe some some pressure on the Western system from from you know, the guy's back east that love to hunt. They're just more willing to come out now. So it is I I don't necessarily it is an issue with It makes it tough for a guy that selfishly wants to get my own tags. But I don't know if there's a fixed for it
or not, you know. And I the last thing I want to do is wish like ill will on the economy, Like I wish people would just struggle more so I could, you know, and I would be in a good spot so I could hang in there.
Right.
So yeah, I don't know what it is. I don't know what the right or wrong answer is. But yeah, during that coach you have a crazy COVID bubble.
I mean people had I think people had a lot of extra money maybe in their pockets from all the the Biden Biden economics or whatever, you know, they had that extra money in their pocket. They're like, you know, I've always wanted to do go elk hunting X and right wherever. And they buy the gear, they try to get the tag or they do buy the tags. And I think they that that. I think that that's where
one of the big upticks is come. Now with things are the economies a little different now, things are expensive. Maybe families are having to cut back here and there, and you may see a downtick, you know, and in some of those numbers. But uh, I feel like a lot of people make that a priority. Once they've tasted that that that fruit, man, they want to go again. They want to go hunt and again, and and they'll make They'll make other sacrifices. They're not going to buy,
you know, maybe three lattes a day. Then maybe they'll cut those out of the old the old budget.
Yeah, so I've got a I got a crazy idea. I'm going to see if you are in support or you would be unsupportive of my idea.
Well most of the time, most of the time when you got a crazy idea, I have to like raise an eyebrow.
I know. And I'm gonna be a hypocrite for saying it because right now I'm doing the opposite of what you would too, because it would force you to choose. But what if all states, all United States, you know, all fifty of them in the Union, got together and said you know we're all going to join up because opportunity is so thin. We're gonna let you hunt one elk within the fifty, We're gonna let you hunt one meal deer within the fifty. We're gonna let you hunt
one white tailed deer. But somehow, and I don't know how you'd manage it or how you do it, but there was a pack that I'm gonna call it the United States Hunting Packed, and it's gonna just limit. Like Dirk wants to apply for Colorado elk. Can he draws it? Then he's got to return his Idaho tag this year, or he draws an Arizona tag like he's out of all the other And I don't know how you manage it, But would you be in support of something like that where it's it's getting more back to what do you
need in your freezer to survive? And not so much as a and entertainment I guess, And like I said, I'm in an hypocrite right now. Right I've hunted elk in two to three states for the last ten years. I've hunted meal deer, whitetail, whatever it may be. But is do you think hunters would support that would you support that the Have I not thought it through all the way, Like, is there a way that if it could somehow magically happen that it would be good for everybody's experience and opportunity?
Man, this reminds me of those little little game my kids used to play with me, would you rather? Would you rather eat a piece of dog poop or have a bird poop in your mouth? I mean, you know, some ridiculous like I don't want either one of these things, Like this is terrible. It's almost like one of those kinds of questions would you rather? Questions?
But what if you saw this, like open up some Arizona top tier units because somebody'd do their dream hunt in Colorado or Utah, you know, right? And so I was trying to think of the positives that could come out of something.
Like this and no, and as you were talking, I was kind of thinking of that thing, like, man, And I can see like people like having that same mindset, like, oh, I'm going to really try to go to these certain places and then overlook these other places that are really good, especially if after a couple three years and not having a lot of pressure, Yeah, that may just satisfy you know, I'm not. You know, it's not like a body count
every fall. I want to go, Yeah, yeah, tag as many Elk as I possibly can, but it's more of an experience and you feel like, Okay, if I can have three ELK tags, it's a game of odds, right, one of those hunts is going to be really good because of timing, population and lack of other hunters, area turning, whatever it is, one of those three are gonna be really good compared to maybe the other two. But if you had to pick one throughout the whole, the whole gamut and focus on that, I mean, I'm not I'm
not one hundred percent against it. I'm not gonna say no bullshit, but I'm gonna I'm not I'm not against it. I mean that that could open up some cool opportunities.
Yeah, I just see like me personally and not saying I'm doing it because it would be it would benefit a lot of guys. And I don't know how you do it, Like if the application you select, like I'm gonna apply and drop down this time, Utah, you select, you know, and how you do it. But let's say I don't know how if you had to pick one and you can only apply for one to start with.
Like then it would be just a big gamble of where you thought everybody else was going that Yeah, you know, like Arizona's got a great horn growth, I'm gonna sneak into Utah. I'm gonna go to Nevada, or I've got enough points in Wyoming or Montana, like you would. I feel like people would slip in with a lot less points, and it would really you know, if you assume everybody applies for all the same Western states, would would put eighty percent less pressure on the units. You know, everybody's
at a different point level. But it would ultimately clean itself up, I think, relatively quick. And like I said, I don't know how how the hell it would ever work, like how do you fund the agencies and how do you do the split of money and all of that. But I like the thought of the idea that, like I would hunt, I would love that system if it gave me a more quality hunt every year and I
got my one L hunt. But yeah, like I say, then I'm becoming a little bit selfish again, Like I need to make sure I get my one L cunt and this system may have some way where hey, guess what, you applied for some mediocre unit and Wyoming the same year that everybody else did the same strategy, you know, and you're out. Yeah, I don't know. I've always try to think, like, how do you fix a log jam? And I don't know if I've got the right answer,
but just an interesting idea. But you had a good segue of in your little spiel there on like just coming up with an overall strategy. Let's talk about that a little bit before we we wrap this one up and give some key dates that people need to remember. Me and you both, I don't I don't even want to count how many states we apply for? What eight, nine, ten states across West? Maybe more, maybe less for Elk and Deer.
Yeah, less than that for me, but I know you between us maybe.
Yeah, somewhere right in there. So I think I applied for seven or eight being from Washington because it sucks so bad here. Yeah. So so going into that, Derek, tell us a little bit about your strategy, and I think we have similar strategies where we've got a couple of states on, Like, you know, you fortunately have Idaho as your your standby. You can always hunt there, and then you've probably got some states on what you'd call
like more of your opportunity rotation. Then you've got some states more on on your you know, quality rotation and how you manage that year to year.
Yeah, So yeah, for the long for the long game. So I'm gonna play a long game for like a once in a lifetime type of hunt, you know that. And that's my Arizona tag. So someday I'll apply. I've got enough points to draw a subpar unit. Definitely. I could probably hunt some of those later season, late season archery, late season rifle kind of hunts like you alluded to earlier, but that's not what I'm I'm looking for. I'm looking for that experience. I'm looking for the hunt where there's
lots of bulls bugling. I can chase bugles all day and just like you just keep going over the next ridge and you never know what you're gonna see. You may see a giant, you may see a five point, but it's just like the quintessential Arizona hunt. So that's my one long shot hunt. You know, some day I'm gonna draw that, hopefully. And then I got some the stuff in the middle. So those are like your Wyoming's Montana's.
You know it's gonna you can't hunt those every year as an non resident, but every few years you can. You can get lucky draw tag to go there, and I but I don't apply typically for their premium units.
What I'm applying for is just their general over the counter, not over the counter, but their general units to where I'm going to have more opportunity to draw tag in a pool of opportunity there to hunt more often, you know, whether every two to five years, be able to go to those places because they're beautiful, they have decent population animals, and you never know, you might see a big one.
And then there's the every year thing, you know, which, like you said, I'm fortunate live to live in Idaho, which as a resident, there's plenty of over the counter opportunities, Like every year I can go down buy a tag for whatever unit. You know, there's way more opportunity over the counter units in Idaho than there are limited units. So I'll be able to hunt, you know, I'll be
able to hunt elk deer whatever here in Idaho. I just have to narrow my scope of where I want to go some units like I kind of allud to earlier, very tough. You know, a lot a lot of animals in them. But other units are are really good. But typically when you find an unit with a lot of animals and a lot of tags, you'll find a lot of people too. So it's kind of like that balancing act.
Yeah, and I'm in the same boat. I look at Arizona as my you know, once in a lifetime, I'm a little behind Dirk. I'm at like twelve or thirteen in the way it's kind of running away. Maybe I'm gonna have to settle on something that's not you're once in a lifetime type punks. I don't know if I'm
ever going to catch up to it. And then Utah I look at at one time, I was I was going to kind of miss the lower end units and try to get into it just a mid tier unit, you know, some of those some of those you know, premium units. I'm not spoiling anything for anybody, you know, the san Juans that you know, some of those units, like, I'm just never going to catch up to them. I
could get lucky. So I'm looking at Utah as like a quality And then I've got Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Oregon, you know, Washington kind of on this rotation for my every year worst case scenario of anything ever fell through, I would go to Colorado. I'm also nicing about Colorado is it has so much over the counter opportunity. I'm able to kind of keep my points as I'm going there.
So I'm kind of building up for a decent rifle hunt or a decent muzzleoder hunt, you know, something that's a better unit outside of of just their general archy over the counter stuff. And every we talked a little bit earlier about half of this day up on it
and educated. One thing that's like weighing in this year is you watch Wyoming make a change between their special in general, right, and so maybe you've been eyeing like, well, I can get in a half year earlier under special, but guess what now you better want to pay two thousand dollars instead of nine hundred or whatever it is exactly so they're changing. You hear about what Wyoming did on their their oil tags. They went to ninety ten
where right now they're dearn Elks not ninety ten. The day Wyoming switches there.
Will explain to our listeners what an oil tag is because you kind of threw me off the first time you told said to oil.
Okay, so once in a lifetime, so your sheep, your goose, Yeah yeah, acronym for once in a lifetime. Most states have them is once in a lifetime. Some states you may be able to have like a waiting period and jump back in as a resident. But for non residents, even in Washington, like if I draw a moose, sheep, goat, it's a once in a lifetime type tag. So Wyoming a couple of years ago, switch to a ninety ten and by ninety ten ninety percent of the tags have
to go to residents, ten percent can go to non residents. Well, that skewed the numbers quite a bit from what the past draw odds are. So let's say right now, it's taking us three years to draw the tag that Dirk wants, just a general ELK tag if they go from eighty twenty to ninety ten at now, I mean, this is exact math is going to take you six years with
the same exact candidate pool. So like there's things like that where people that may have ten or eleven points, they're just getting close enough to a unit they want, Like they're starting to now strategize whether they're going to jump earlier, maybe shoot for a Lesher unit, because if they don't shoot for a Lestri unit and do that before the change, they've now just bumped themselves down into way below the unit they can get into right now.
So like, as hunters and people that are into the game, like we're we're following that all the time, trying to make sure that you're getting the most out of your points, and and it just depends, like sometimes I'm willing to like sacrifice what I thought was gonna be a good quality hunt for an opportunity before something like that that comes down the pipeline. You know, Idaho I love. I always apply for Idaho and New Mexico zero points on
their controlled hunts. I feel like it's a level playing field. I've got no more, no less opportunity to the next guy. But then there's strategies within that, Like if I've already got a pretty full plate for the for the fall, i may swing for the fences on Idaho controlled deer
and elk right like I want. If I'm going to get a tag, I'm only going to change my plans for a premium where if my my my schedules looking real thin, I may decide I'm going to go for the you know, a controlled Hunt Idaho that's got ten percent draw odds, which is pretty good, you know. So there's strategies than that same thing within New Mexico. Yeah,
you can. You can set up every Heala unit and have a two percent draw odds when you get done, or you can start to look for some mediocre muzzl Er units and maybe have a thirty percent chance to draw on a take. So it really just depends on what you want to do, what your goal is, and
you have to kind of just manage appropriately. And like I say, me and Dirker, I think I can speak for both of us, we're always we're always going to have that guaranteed tag, whether it's Colorado for Dirkett's Idaho for me at maybe Western Washington might be the greatest hunt, but I know I'm going to get a Hunt Elk every year, and then I'm using the draws to kind of supplement maybe something mid tier and then something like
really high tier. If the if the draw odds are in my favor, I guess at that point.
Yeah, And there's one thing we didn't talk about yet is like state raffles too. So almost I think almost every state has a raffle, like you put it if you buy raffle tickets and for you know some kind of like in Idaho they call it the super hunt, right, and you can imply, you know, there's there's three or four different things. It's like maybe you apply for those once in a lifetime. You know, moose, sheep, goat, or it's or it's elk, or it's or it's an any animal.
Like if you draw the super tag, you could hunt any of those. So it just depends. So it's just a raffle. You got hunt Expo. They do a bunch of raffles there, so you know, there there's auctions, you know, for the big money guys that want to throw a bunch of money. I mean I can't do it, but people can maybe get a governor tag or whatever. So
there's there's those options too. But but for the like I've never done, you of those raffle tags, which I should, you know, just you know, put a tiny little bit of money in there, because if you if you don't win, if you don't play you can't win, right, So maybe I should be putting in for some of those raffle tags.
Yeah, I mean I we all know people that have drawn them, I think, Yeah, you know landowner tags or options. You know, some of these states do landowner tags. We've we've used those a few times ourselves when we we've had horrible luck in the draws and couldn't lie and stuff up. So whatever, your buddy, you know, And and you know, sometimes I hate that that money gets involved
in opportunity, but it's the reality. And you know, if you're set up to do it, and by all means, somebody's gonna hunt with that tag regardless, right, you know. So I've I've never felt guilty about that. You know. It's it's my lifestyle. It's what I you know, I don't go drink on the weekends. I don't chew a can of Copenhagen everything. You know, it's like it's my
lifestyle choice. So I can save up this little bit of money and and you know, not not get into me and my wife's budget and make it make it work.
But it's fine, there's well, it's funny. I I've used one of this job. I used to have then when I first started going out of state to you know, the first time I went to Wyoming, I came back and one of the guys at work said, well, how much that cost you to go? I'm like, well the tag was I don't remember back then, it was like five hundred some bucks. And he had fuel, you got your food, you know, and lah la la la, and he goes, oh, it must be nice, like like I was,
had all this extra income to throw around. But it's like, well, if you break it down, because that particular guy, he drinks a lot. Well if if if they cut back on like one of the bottle two bottles of vodka month that they they buy, he could have been he could have paid for that hunt. You know. It's just it seems like we can replace our vices maybe with something maybe a good advice like change your vice like from from from coffee stand lattes or or a lot
of extra drinking or whatever, partying at the bar. You can take that money, just shove it in your pocket for for tags and elk hunts and deer hunts, and now you can afford it.
Or he didn't, he didn't see you behind the scenes eating top Ramen every night for dinner for six months, so you could afford to go.
Right right exactly top problem and hear.
Me, now, it's all priorities. We we we probably over prioritize this compared to a lot of people, but it's important to us. It's it's part of my identity. I have to be out in the woods chasing something, so we do put lot of priority on it. And to close this up, Dirk, we're just gonna you kind of left me to this. You're like, hey, that's your thing. So I'm just going to kind of walk through some important dates and deadlines if it's a state to interest you.
And one thing that I'm not going to mention in this, which Dirk is probably going to kill me after this is certain states will have second draws or leftover tag draws. I'm just going to say pay attention to those states. Is there's an opportunity because a lot of times people like forget about the initial stuff will pop up, and there's always opportunity. I think multiple states offer leftovers. You can either read draw or sometimes it's on a first
come for serve basis, so there are limited opportunities. I would say it's getting tougher to get than it was in the past, but there are those opportunities in addition to the applications or controlled hunt. So Arizona, like I said, Arizona's actually the day we're recording this podcast, February sixth, deadline I believe at five pm Mountain time. So by the time this comes out, I allologize if you forgot, but you missed Elk and Antelope. Next up will be Montana.
It's deadline will be April first, for you know, Deer and Elk. Colorado will be April second, so you get one more day to pony up for Colorado. Colorado is one of those states where you just have to buy a small I hope I don't get all this wrong. This is going off you years pass. That's why you should always check with the most up to date fish and wildlife rags. Colorado you have to buy like a small game license. You have to have a license in
your pocket. In order to apply Montana, you have to front the money for the entire big game combo, which I think is approaching thirteen hundred ish for the big game Deer and elk Elk separately might be nine Deer might be set something to that effect. I'm gonna get them all wrong.
Expensive.
Utah's end of April. April twenty fifth, you got to be in for deer, antelope, elk, bison, moose. They do all theirs and their oils at the same time. Then we go into Nevada. You get a couple, you get another week off. May eighth, you need to be in for Nevada bonus point system. Nevada requires you to buy a license and then buy each species point. Oregon is then May fifteenth. Once again, it does have some over the counter opportunities, so if you do apply, you don't
have to least, I believe, buy your license again. There Washington, you have to buy your license. It's draw is May twenty second, we're super late. And then Idaho like always pulling up the rear. June fifth, you need to be applied in Idaho so that you have zero time to ask for your leave or get physically prepared for that hunt when you find out that you drew. Because I think they let you know, like what mid July for non residents. Crazy late, Yeah, that's crazy. So those are
just some of your important dates. Like I say, if there's certain states you know, go confirm those days, but that just kind of you know, you're playing anywhere from like I said, today, Arizona kicks it off. Wyoming, I believe, was due on the thirty first for ELK January, so it's over Idaho. Over the counter stuff is already done
way back on December first of the previous year. So coming up, we've got you know, we got New Mexico, Montana, Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Oregon, Washington, Idaho are still all out ahead of us from the time that this podcast will air, And you got a little bit of time after Arizona kicks things off here in February, so the next time you'll have to pay attention is the uh is New Mexico be coming up next on March twentieth, and then everything's you know, pretty
quick in the spring, you know, April May after that. So those are kind of the dates, Like I say, come up with your own strategy. If it's one hundred percent straight opportunity, you don't care whether you're hunting horns or not. Like there are a lot of cow opportunities out there too, And hopefully the fishing game departments are doing their job right and and you know it needs to have cols taken out for the right reasons. But yeah,
I don't. Do you have anything else to add, Dirk on what you look for, like anything we may have forgot, like as you head into a into a winner trying to plan your hunts that you think.
About now you know it's really helpful, is if because my memory is about as long as my pinky, So it's important to maybe go through those those different states that you're interested in and write down the dates and important dates, you know, when when the application opens and when it closes, and put that on your calendar, my on my phone calendar. That way it pops up. I'm like, oh, I can start applying for Arizona or right, Oh shoot,
I better tomorrow is the last day to apply. I better get my my act together and get it in because it's easy to get busy with life. I mean, you and I live this stuff. And there's been a couple of times over the years where I'm like, oh, oh, shoot, that was like I think last year I asked you about Colorado and you're like, yeah, that was like last month.
I'm like, yeah, I was a real nice friend there. I really helped you out Thanks the last if you.
Applied, thanks a lot, phelps for uh, you know, reminding me. Yeah, I see how he is. Oh yeah, I team player.
Trust me. I'm like two Arizona deer points behind my Elkin Antelope because they throw it off in its own little category later and I missed it multiple times. But yeah, it's it's tough to miss. And I think I think there are some apps out there. I don't even know which ones to do it. There's got to be an app out there that reminds you on draw deadlines or like you, I'm the same way where I'm just going in. I take these days I just read off to you. Guys.
I've got them all plugged into my calendar and you know, a week or two ahead of time because I'm telling you what. There are states where you try to plan in the last day and their systems go down in servers and some of them just don't allow you to redo. So if there's any technical difficulties, I want those to happen, you know, seven ten days ahead of the final day.
I had an app on my phone that I got like in twenty thirteen. I think I paid the guy at dollar. It was something ridiculous cheap and he just started out and you went in and you picked the states that you had points in and stuff and you and you would get reminders through the app and text messages. Well that was like four phones ago, and I delete you know, you know how you clean out your phone
you delete apps like a doing thing whatever. Well, I still get text messages on the states at the time that I had points in or I was applying in, but the new stuff it doesn't remind me so and I don't remember the name of the app. So it's like, man, if I really I really wish I remembered what that app was, but it was like point to Point Hunter or point save Point something I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, there's there's a lot. There's got to be an I like said, I don't use them, but there's got to be something out there. But yeah, that's kind of our our strategy, kind of our management of trying
to get some tags. And yeah, we appreciate all of you listening in and if you have any questions for us, once again, send them over to us ct D at Phelps game Calls dot com or hit Dirk up on his hotline, which he's going to give us right now, right now, and let me oh, I didn't have you didn't have You're prepared early.
Sorry, my fingers were faster than you were talking. But it's uh too O eight two one nine seven seven zero one, kind of like those Info infomercial guys on on the radio. And and also if you just want to, you know, get on there and and leave a message and say how good Maverick diaphragms are versus pink phelps sons that that's cool too. I mean, I love I love hearing that, and I can always forward those to Jason Derek.
Just for that, I'm gonna put that phone number on a Craigslist ad for free firewood in the Boise area way and I'm going to destroy your line for that little No, I'm just kidding. I've never done to you, but sorry. We appreciate you all. We appreciate you all. Good luck, and you're in you're hunting for tags. There's two seasons now, you hunt for tags and you get to up for the animal later. So good luck, everybody. Appreciate you all, and take care of